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Rizban
2009-12-23, 05:10 PM
After having play tested this system with my group for awhile, I have made several changes to improve it. It is now less feat intensive while having a few more options.[hr]
My group and I have been discussing how to make fights mechanically more like great swashbuckler movies as well as improve the party meat shield's ability to defend himself in combat. We devised the following system for parrying blows.



Parry
When an opponent attacks you in melee range, you may attempt to parry a single attack from that opponent before you know whether or not the attack is successful. This attempt is an attack of opportunity, which also means you may not attempt to parry while flat-footed. You must be wielding a weapon or using a natural weapon to make a parry attempt.

When you choose to make a parry attempt, you make an attack roll at a -4 penalty as a opposed roll to your opponent's attack roll. If you beat your opponent's total, you have successfully parried his blow, causing him to fail to hit you. If you fail to parry the blow, you are off balance and are easily hit, and you are treated as flat-footed for that attack. No other attack in that round treats you as being flat-footed due to failing a parry attempt.

You automatically fail to parry on a natural 1. You are unable to successfully parry if your opponent rolls a natural 20. If the attacker and defender both roll a natural 20, the attack still hits, but the critical hit check automatically fails.


You can not normally parry ranged attacks, magic, or special attacks such as Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder, or Trip.
You can make a parry attempt against a Charge at a -6 penalty. You can not set an attack against a charge and parry at the same time.
You can attempt to parry a Disarm or Sunder attempt made on an item you wear that is not your weapon at a -6 penalty. Sunder and Disarm attempts against your weapon can not be parried.
You can attempt to parry a melee touch attack at a -10 penalty. Parrying a touch attack always uses your Dex modifier on the attack roll rather than your Str modifier.


Improved Parry: If you have the Improved Parry feat, the attack roll penalty for parry attempts is reduced by 4.

Combat Expertise/Fighting Defensively: The penalty to attack rolls from use of the Combat Expertise feat or while fighting defensively does not apply to parry attempts.

Total Defense Action: While taking the total defense action, you may still make parry attempts, but you may not make riposte attacks. In addition to the +4 dodge bonus to AC, you receive a +4 circumstance bonus to your parry attempts.

Combat Reflexes: You may make as many parry attempts as you have Attacks of Opportunity. Having the Combat Reflexes feat gives you more opportunities to parry attacks.

Deflect Arrows: If you have the Improved Parry feat, it counts as having having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for the purposes of gaining the Deflect Arrows feat. If you have the Deflect Arrows feat, you may use your weapon to deflect a ranged attack as normal without requiring a free hand. You may not use the Snatch Arrows feat with a weapon, and Improved Parry does not qualify you for Snatch Arrows.

Improved Unarmed Strike: If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you may make parry attempts while unarmed.



Parrying Weapons
The following list of weapons should have their description appended to add:

When using one of the following weapons, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to parry an attack. Dagger
Quarterstaff
Sword, short
Rapier
Sai
Axe, orc double
Sword, two bladed

(I'll go through non PHB weapons later.)



Parry Related Feats

Improved Parry [General, Fighter]
You are very adept at parrying your enemies' attacks with your own weapon.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Intelligence 13, Combat Expertise
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls made for parrying attempts are lessened by 4.
Special: A fighter may select this as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Riposte [General, Fighter]
Your combat skills have progressed to a point where you may parry a blow and immediately respond with an attack of your own.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 15, Intelligence 13, base attack +4, Combat Expertise, Improved Parry
Benefit: When you successfully parry an attack, you may immediately make a melee attack against the opponent you just parried at your full base attack bonus. This attack is a part of the same action used to make the parry attempt, which means parrying and following up with a riposte uses a single attack of opportunity.
Regardless of the number of parry attempts you can make in a round, you can only make a single riposte.
This feat does not give you extra attacks of opportunity during a round or allow you to make an attack of opportunity when you would be denied one for being surprised, helpless, or in a similar situation.
Special: A fighter may select this as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Riposte Mastery [Tactical, Fighter]
As you parry your opponent's blows, you gain better control of your opponent and the battle.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 15, Intelligence 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Parry, Riposte
Benefit: This feat allows the use of several tactical maneuvers, each of which requires that you attempt a special attack immediately following a successful parry.

Press the Advantage: After successfully parrying an attack, you may immediately attempt to bull rush the opponent you parried in place of your normal riposte attack. You gain a +2 bonus to the check as if you were charging. Your opponent does not receive an attack of opportunity against you, even if you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat.

Disarming Flourish: After successfully parrying an attack, you may immediately attempt to disarm the weapon with which your opponent just attacked in place of your normal riposte attack. You may only disarm that weapon with which your opponent attacked, not any other item he possesses. Your opponent does not receive an attack of opportunity against you, even if you do not have the Improved Disarm feat.

Unbalancing Blow: After successfully parrying an attack, you may immediately attempt to trip the opponent you parried in place of your normal riposte attack. Make a melee touch attack with your weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack. Your opponent does not receive an attack of opportunity against you, even if you are using a weapon which does not normally allow trip attacks and do not have the Improved Trip feat.

Quick Feint: If you have the Improved Feint feat, then after successfully parrying an attack, you may immediately attempt to feint against the opponent you parried in place of your normal riposte attack. You receive a bonus to your Bluff check equal to the amount by which your parry attempt exceeded your opponent's attack. This uses your Immediate Action for the round.

Sudden Grab: If you are unarmed, then after successfully parrying an attack, you may immediately attempt to start a grapple against the opponent you parried in place of your normal riposte attack. You provoke attacks of opportunity as normal.

Normal: Without this feat, a riposte attack can only be a standard melee attack.
Special: A fighter may select this as one of his fighter bonus feats.



Not actually a parry required feat, but it is thematically appropriate:

Pressing Attack [General]
You are skilled at taking every advantage and keeping your opponent on the defensive.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 15, Combat Reflexes
Benefit: If an opponent you threaten takes a 5-foot step into a square you do not threaten, you may take a 5-foot step as an Immediate Action into an unoccupied space where you will again threaten the opponent. If there are no unoccupied spaces or you can not move into a space that threatens the opponent who just moved, you may not take the 5-foot step. This step does not count as your normal 5-foot step for the round. This does count as an attack of opportunity.

Narmy
2009-12-23, 05:14 PM
I believe that this is already simply shown in the fact of AC.

You're both buckling it out, he misses your AC.

The DM describes that you parry his blow.


Done, and Done. I will look over your system though, but I think that I shall disagree with it. Though not necessarily...

Spiryt
2009-12-23, 05:15 PM
Looks decent, but why is parrying a melee touch attack most difficult?

Trying to touch armed individual with hand (especially unarmoured one ) is often very good way to not be able to tie your own shoelaces ever again. :smallamused:

Armor and stuff makes things more complex, but this is just D&D so...

Rizban
2009-12-23, 05:25 PM
I believe that this is already simply shown in the fact of AC.

You're both buckling it out, he misses your AC.

The DM describes that you parry his blow.


Done, and Done. I will look over your system though, but I think that I shall disagree with it. Though not necessarily...
AC is a static number that becomes entirely reliant on magic and enhancements. While a fighter with full BAB gets increasing better at hitting stuff, he never learns to better defend himself. This system gives him a way to do that.




Looks decent, but why is parrying a melee touch attack most difficult?

Trying to touch armed individual with hand (especially unarmoured one ) is often very good way to not be able to tie your own shoelaces ever again. :smallamused:

Armor and stuff makes things more complex, but this is just D&D so...

Because you're not just trying to knock his hand away, you're trying to block it in such a way that it doesn't "touch" you enough to set off the spell.

Spiryt
2009-12-23, 05:33 PM
Well, the problem with description (in Core) at least is that doesn't specify "how much touched" target needs to be.

But really, considering that touch AC of poor full BaB guys is pretty low, it doesn't really need penalisation.

And "knocking hand away" with a sword would actually often end with severing it, or other injury with different weapon.

Besides, knocking away would work perfectly well, don't know why it wouldn't.

In fact, stoping somebody completely from touching you would probably require you to hold him, so that's another story.

Narmy
2009-12-23, 05:35 PM
You wouldn't necessarily cut someone by deflecting "knocking away" a blow with your sword. It really depends on which part you used to parry them, and how you did it.

Aside from that, after looking at this system. It seems very interesting..

I MAY have to try using this.

Very well done.

FlamingKobold
2009-12-23, 05:47 PM
I think that this is a good system, to say the least. I'm designing a low/no magic world, so things like parrying are extremely beneficial to invest in (As AC is generally similar at 1st and 21st levels). I might tweak it a bit after play-testing, and add several more feats in. If the campaign ever happens, I'll be sure to comment on how it went over.

Rizban
2009-12-23, 05:49 PM
Thanks. We've play tested this a bit, though only one player in our group has actually used it much. It usually works out pretty well, but when you have two character optimized for parrying, they end up either standing in one spot blocking and riposting or end up ranging all over the battlefield without really hitting each other. Two swordmasters like that generally end up needing to disarm their opponent in order to be able to hit them.

I'm definitely interested in your input once you use this system.

FlamingKobold
2009-12-23, 05:57 PM
Yep, I forsaw that problem as well. For example, in my last campaign, there were, i think, 4 enemies that weren't humanoid, and the campaign lasted 17 levels. That means that almost every enemy has a weapon and is medium sized, meaning that the extremely situational and feat intensive chains like disarming, grappling and bull rushing were effective. I think those styles (like parrying) make the battle system more realistic and elegant, more overall enjoyable.

Edit: One thing that needs to be added in: a mechanism that makes it harder to block larger weapons. For example, it's easier to block a longsword with a longsword than a greatsword with a dagger.

Narmy
2009-12-23, 06:55 PM
I agree with Kobold on that matter however, I do not think that it should be necessarily specific to weapon types such as daggers vs great swords.

But more so vs weapon sizes.

Size bonuses

Small, Medium, Large weapons and the like.

Perhaps some weapons would be better at parrying, yes.

Rizban
2009-12-23, 07:08 PM
Well, yes, certain weapons should give a bonus to Parry just like they do to other special attacks. I'm not sure which ones would be best for that though, as my players don't exactly use a large range of weapons. I'd love to see a list of suggestions though.

Arbitrarious
2009-12-23, 08:12 PM
I agree with Kobold on that matter however, I do not think that it should be necessarily specific to weapon types such as daggers vs great swords.

But more so vs weapon sizes.

Size bonuses

Small, Medium, Large weapons and the like.

Perhaps some weapons would be better at parrying, yes.

Is it a matter of size? I was under the impression that a parry was more gaining control of the opponents swing to send it off course and less of a weapon block. I know if I can strike my enemies weapon with a great sword I will send it off course, but isn't it also much harder to control the great sword to do that with in the first place? Medium weapons like long swords and such seem like the best parry weapons while the others all have different benefits and drawbacks. A dagger limits the momentum of your swing but it's very easy to turn and position to deflect an incoming attack. Larger weapons offer more force to counter with but are harder to adjust if needed.

I do like the concept overall and look forward to further developments.

Dienekes
2009-12-23, 08:35 PM
First, I like. I actually developed a system similar to this awhile back

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112621

Yours is much better though, I figured I'd post to see if it will provide you with an idea or two.

FlamingKobold
2009-12-23, 08:36 PM
@Narmy: I was indeed intending a size system. If that's not how it cam across, that's my fault.

@Rizban: Rapier needs a parrying bonus, definitely. As a general rule: blunt weapons are bad, swords are good, axes are okay, spears are good. And that's pretty much everything in the SRD. Unfortunately, you can't do it by type because blocking with an axe (slashing) is significantly different than a longsword (also slashing).

arguskos
2009-12-23, 09:10 PM
This is something I think I'm going to actually implement in my next campaign. Consider this yoinked and loved. It's a great and elegant addition to the combat system, and I love it. Top-notch work, really indeed. :smallbiggrin:

Dante & Vergil
2009-12-23, 11:14 PM
I really like the idea of parrying, because I like fighter like characters, and they need to do cool things too.

Narmy
2009-12-24, 12:09 AM
This idea brought to you by the opinions of previous posters, and one Lone Commoner.

You could go with a reverse size system.


Small = +1 Size Bonus to parry.
Large = -1 Size Bonus to parry. (Well, penalty, not bonus, but you get the point.)

This could represent the weapons weight, and how easy/difficult it is to actually maneuver the weapon itself into position and manipulate it in such a way to parry an opponents attack.

Light weapons would be easier to handle, where as heavier ones would be more difficult.

Then aside from that you'd have the actual weapons parry bonus/penalty itself.

So I'll just take a random number, +2.

We'll go with a Fencing Sword (Rapier, whatever.)

+2 bonus to parry an attack, however this blade is small sized. Therefore it gains an additional +1.

Small Fencing Rapier = +2 Rapier Bonus, +1 Size Bonus.
+3 Parry Bonus.

Large Fencing Rapier = +2 Rapier Bonus, -1 Size Bonus.
+1 Parry Bonus

Rizban
2009-12-24, 12:24 AM
Adding in modifiers like that for weapon sizes and such just seems a bit complicated. I really wanted to keep this system relatively simple, on par with the other special attacks (except grapple :smallwink:).

If certain weapons are to have bonuses to parry, then it should just be appended to the weapon description rather than trying to create some sort of vague overarching rule too try to cover everything.

[hr]
Based on the weapon list in the PHB, this is my solution:


When using one of the following weapons, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to parry an attack.
Dagger
Quarterstaff
Sword, short
Rapier
Sai
Axe, orc double
Sword, two bladed

Narmy
2009-12-24, 12:25 AM
What about for Pathfinder >.>

FlamingKobold
2009-12-24, 12:25 AM
Narmy: Good basis for a system, but i think one thing that I outlined in a previous post should probably be represeted. For simplicity, let's assume that blocking with a slashing or piercing weapon (swords, spears, and axes) are the basis of the activity of parrying, and thus receive no bonus or penalty. However, I think that a good add-on to your system would be a penalty of -1 (2?) to parry attempts with a bludgeoing weapon. A hammer/morningstar would be significantly harder to use to deflect an attack, not because of its size, but the nature of the shape of the weapon itself.

Edit: Ninja'd

Rizban: The point of my post, and, I believe, Narmy's, was to make a general system to adjudicate bonuses. While I completely agree with your list, it makes it very annoying to use a simple concept (parrying) and apply it to other sources (different weapons not from the PHB) and other systems (Pathfinder).

Edit 2: Spears?

Rizban
2009-12-24, 12:26 AM
Except that weapons such as the quarterstaff are actually quite good for blocking and parrying. You still can't categorize by damage type.


Edit:
What about for Pathfinder >.>I don't play it, nor do I have the book.

Narmy
2009-12-24, 12:35 AM
Actually, If you play 3.5, and don't want to play 4.0.

You mine as well upgrade to pathfinder. It's the next best step for 3.5 (4.0 is not the best, IMO) But hey... whatever Back to the topic at hand after a short message from our sponsors.

As for an SRD. Official SRD link below.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/index.html

There are also a few fan made SRD's.

Aside from that, the conversion of this system into Pathfinder is QUITE easy.

In fact, there is almost no change at all, perhaps even none.

Grappling is just replaced by CMB/CMD. Tis all.

Drolyt
2009-12-24, 12:35 AM
I like. I think the penalty when used against melee touch attacks is necessary balance wise, although I don't think it makes much sense. I think this system makes melee types stronger, especially those that have poor armor or in a low magic setting, but that is probably a good thing. I know it sounds ridiculous but there should probably be feats that allow you to parry things like rays or other spells. This would help melee types deal with spellcasters and would be pretty cool.
Edit: There was some mention of Pathfinder. The core rules are ogl I believe, so you could check it out, but I would urge you to check out some of the 3.5 modifications on this site like d20r if you are still using 3.5 but want more balance etc.

Latronis
2009-12-24, 12:37 AM
Why can you not parry disarm and sunder attempts on your weapon?

Also I might be inclined to allow disarm attempts within the parry rules.

Also there should be a (High BAB prereq) feat to allow you to use the parry rules to deflect ranged touch attacks. Using a sword to deflect pew-pew lazerz isn't that uncommon in more cinematic fantasy.

Narmy
2009-12-24, 12:37 AM
I like. I think the penalty when used against melee touch attacks is necessary balance wise, although I don't think it makes much sense. I think this system makes melee types stronger, especially those that have poor armor or in a low magic setting, but that is probably a good thing. I know it sounds ridiculous but there should probably be feats that allow you to parry things like rays or other spells. This would help melee types deal with spellcasters and would be pretty cool.

You'd better be using a magic item for that sort of parry........

Rizban
2009-12-24, 12:49 AM
Why can you not parry disarm and sunder attempts on your weapon?

Also I might be inclined to allow disarm attempts within the parry rules.

Also there should be a (High BAB prereq) feat to allow you to use the parry rules to deflect ranged touch attacks. Using a sword to deflect pew-pew lazerz isn't that uncommon in more cinematic fantasy.

Well, sunder attempts can't be parried, because you're sticking your weapon out to get hit... which is what your opponent is trying to do.

Disarm attempts can't be parried, because disarm and sunder are about your only options when you come up against a guy who parries.

Sunder makes some amount of logical sense, and Disarm is there from a balance perspective.

Narmy
2009-12-24, 12:54 AM
Trying to see if I remember the system after reading it once.

I'm going to parry the attack of Enemy 1
He has an attack roll total of 16.
I make a parry check, and I have the Improved Parry feat. So no -4 for me.
I am using a quarterstaff double handed. Sooo, +2 Bonus, d20, and my dexterity? Correct?

We'll say 13+2,+4 = 19.

I parry his attack >.>?


How Pathfinder Works for the Sunder, Disarm, and Grapple.

Replace with CMB, and CMD.

Combat Maneuver Bonus (Base Attack Bonus+Strength+Size)
Combat Maneuver Defense (10+Base Attack Bonus+Strength+Dexterity+Size)


Quick Explanation on CMB, AND CMD.

If I want to Grapple, Disarm, or Sunder anything. My CMB check has to beat their CMD.

Rizban
2009-12-24, 01:00 AM
My parry system wouldn't work under the system you're describing, because you're making a roll against their attack roll. If the enemy makes a good attack roll, it should be harder to parry. The CMB/CMD thing doesn't really reflect that.

The only real way to adapt parry to fit with that system is to make a CMB check vs their CMD substituting their roll for 10 in the formula. But then, that defeats the purpose of having the CMB/CMD system completely, since you're ignoring the system anyway. You might as well just drop the 10 from AC and roll that every time instead and call it parrying.

Latronis
2009-12-24, 01:06 AM
When an opponent attacks you in melee range, you may attempt to parry a single attack from that opponent before you know whether or not the attack is successful. This attempt counts as your attack of opportunity for the round.

When you choose to make a parry attempt, you make an attack roll at a -4 penalty as a opposed roll to your opponent's attack roll. If you beat your opponent's total, you have successfully parried his blow, causing him to fail to hit you. If you fail to parry the blow, you are off balance and are easily hit. Your opponent automatically hits you when you fail to parry, even if he wouldn't normally overcome your AC.

Hmm

I think you should not be able to parry while flatfooted. That would also make feinting in combat an option againest parry focused builds.

Also automatically getting hit is a bit odd especially if it's a dodgy attack roll that wouldn't be enough to get through your armour.

Perhaps failing to parry treats you as flatfooted for the attack you attempted to parry. You're skilled failed you opening you up to attack but your armour might still protect you(though you wouldnt wanna rely on it too much)


Well, sunder attempts can't be parried, because you're sticking your weapon out to get hit... which is what your opponent is trying to do.

Disarm attempts can't be parried, because disarm and sunder are about your only options when you come up against a guy who parries.

Sunder makes some amount of logical sense, and Disarm is there from a balance perspective.

I find it odd that a parry is using your weapon to manipulate an opponents weapon and you can't use your skill in that regard to defend your weapon againest attack :smalltongue: Though balance considerations should still apply hmm

Added:
My parry system wouldn't work under the system you're describing, because you're making a roll against their attack roll. If the enemy makes a good attack roll, it should be harder to parry. The CMB/CMD thing doesn't really reflect that.

The only real way to adapt parry to fit with that system is to make a CMB check vs their CMD substituting their roll for 10 in the formula. But then, that defeats the purpose of having the CMB/CMD system completely, since you're ignoring the system anyway. You might as well just drop the 10 from AC and roll that every time instead and call it parrying.

Rolling AC also benefits the lesser armoured more than the heavily armoured making it less useful for the tanks and more useful for the squishies

FlamingKobold
2009-12-24, 01:13 AM
Here is a list of parry-related feat (including yours, with tweaking)

Improved Parry [General, Fighter]
You are adept at parrying your enemies' attacks with your own weapon.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 15, base attack bonus +1
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls made for parrying attempts are lessened by 4.
Normal: See Parry.
Special: A fighter may select this as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Greater Parry [General, Fighter]
You are a master at parrying attacks against you.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 17, base attack bonus +3, Combat Reflexes, Improved Parry
Benefit: You may make as many parry attempts each round as you have attacks of opportunity.
Special: A fighter may select this as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Riposte [General, Fighter]
Your combat skills have progressed to a point where you may parry a blow and immediately respond with an attack of your own.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, base attack +6, Combat Expertise, Improved Parry
Benefit: When you successfully parry an attack, you may immediately make an attack against the opponent you just parried at your full base attack bonus. This is an immediate action that does not consume an attack of opportunity for the round.
Regardless of the number of parry attempts you can make in a round, you can only make a single riposte.
This feat does not give you extra attacks of opportunity during a round or allow you to make an attack of opportunity when you would be denied one for being surprised, helpless, or in a similar situation.
Special: A fighter may select this as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Improved Riposte
You have the ability to fend off hords of enemies with just a blade by blocking their attacks and responding with your own
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Riposte, Base Attack Bonus +9
Description: There is no limit to the number of times per round that you can perform a Riposte. Moreover, you may Riposte the same enemy multiple times and may perform a Riposte after parrying and adversary's Riposte.
Special: A fighter may select this as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Block Arrows
Arrows bounce are deflected from hitting you by your whirling blade
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Improved Parry
Description: You may use a parry attempt to deflect small, material projectiles. You gain an additional +6 bonus on this attempt, whic stacks with that of Improved Parry. If you succeed by 10 or more, you do not use an attack of opportunity. For every projectile successfully deflected in a round, you gain a +1 bonus to deflect other projectiles fired by the same enemy until the beginning of our next turn.
Special: A fighter may select this as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Hidden Riposte
After parrying an attack you use your off-hand weapon to perform a Riposte
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Riposte, Sneak Attack +1d6, Quick Draw OR TWF
Description: Instead of performing a normal riposte, you may use your off-hand weapon to strike your opponent. Your enemy is treated as flat-footed and cannot parry your attack. If you have the TWF feat, you gain a +4 bonus on the attack roll. If you have the Quick Draw feat, you only take a -2 penalty for the off-hand attack if you use quick draw to draw the weapon immeditely before the Riposte and drop the weapon afterwards.
Special: A fighter may select this as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Press the Advantage
As you parry and Riposte, you move yourself and your foe across the battlefield.
Prerequisites: Riposte, Pressing Attack
Description: After successfully making a Riposte, you may move your opponent 5 feet in any direction. You may also take a 5-foot step in any direction without provoking any attacks of opportunity. This step does not count as your normal 5-foot step for the round.
This step does not count as your normal 5-foot step for the round.


Pressing Attack [General]
You are skilled at taking every advantage and keeping your opponent on the defensive.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 15, Combat Reflexes
Benefit: If an opponent you threaten takes a 5-foot step into a square you do not threaten, you may take a 5-foot step as an Immediate Action into an unoccupied space where you will again threaten the opponent. If there are no unoccupied spaces or you can not move into a space that threatens the opponent who just moved, you may not take the 5-foot step. This step does not count as your normal 5-foot step for the round. This does count as an attack of opportunity.

I'll add more after the holidays.

Rizban
2009-12-24, 01:18 AM
Hmm

I think you should not be able to parry while flatfooted. That would also make feinting in combat an option againest parry focused builds. Parry counts as an Attack of Opportunity, which you can not make while flatfooted (unless you have an ability which allows you to, which should then also apply to parrying). Making it function as an AoO takes care of all that.


Also automatically getting hit is a bit odd especially if it's a dodgy attack roll that wouldn't be enough to get through your armour.

Perhaps failing to parry treats you as flatfooted for the attack you attempted to parry. You're skilled failed you opening you up to attack but your armour might still protect you(though you wouldn't wanna rely on it too much)I like this, though it really opens you up to touch attacks. You almost can't miss a flat-footed touch AC without rolling a 1. This makes attempting to parry a touch attack much more dangerous. Perhaps if this change is made, then the penalty to parrying a touch attack should be reduced to -6.



I find it odd that a parry is using your weapon to manipulate an opponents weapon and you can't use your skill in that regard to defend your weapon againest attack :smalltongue: Though balance considerations should still apply hmmI agree that it seems a bit odd. I tried to make parry such that it doesn't just automatically shut down everything. The only thing it's really great against is basic melee attacks. Parrying effectively is a tool which forces your opponent into using special moves against you. If he doesn't have the right feats, then you're forcing him into giving you AoOs and potentially ruining his attempts. Parry, when fully utilized, becomes a bit of a battlefield control option. This is why it needs weaknesses that can overcome it.

Latronis
2009-12-24, 01:19 AM
Question:

Interaction with Fighting Defensively\Total Defense Action?

Replace? Supplement? (well as written they don't work together since you use your attack roll over your AC for that attack, but possibly a minimising of penalty or something)

Narmy
2009-12-24, 01:48 AM
I don't understand what you're getting at with the parry system being incompatible with Pathfinder.

I think you misinterpreted, and I was merely stating the CMD/CMB stuff so that you could get a glimpse at pathfinder.

And how all those Disarm, and such would go to it.

I don't understand what you're on about. However, I'll look over the system again.

Also, I suggest that the Dexterity be added to the parry roll. Seriously, it makes sense.

Rizban
2009-12-24, 01:53 AM
Improved Riposte
You have the ability to fend off hords of enemies with just a blade by blocking their attacks and responding with your own
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Riposte, Base Attack Bonus +9
Description: There is no limit to the number of times per round that you can perform a Riposte. Moreover, you may Riposte the same enemy multiple times and may perform a Riposte after parrying and adversary's Riposte.
Special: A fighter may select this as one of his fighter bonus feats.We played with this one a bit, and eliminated it from our play tests almost immediately. If you limit it to one riposte per enemy per round, it balances out a bit better, but it's definitely over powered. As written, it makes iterative attacks worthless, because you're now effectively getting free attacks against your enemy every time he attacks you in a round with a full attack and each attack is at a lower BAB. Basically, you're getting a free full attack against an opponent. It's definitely broken, which is why I did not include it.

Riposting multiple enemies as they surround you is possible, provided you only get one each. Again, I didn't include it, because I feel that it is still a bit broken. Giving you a potential free attack every time someone tries to hit you is a bit much. Normal attacks don't provoke AoOs for a reason, and making a system which causes them to do so almost every time just doesn't work out in real play.


Hidden Riposte
The flavor on this one is good, but I don't really care for the mechanics. It could be tinkered with though. I'm not sure exactly how to work it at the moment, but I'll think on it.


Press the Advantage
Wonderful. It definitely opens up some battlefield control, and I love the flavor. I don't like how it is implemented though, and it lessens the usefulness of Bull Rush.

Perhaps make it this instead:
Press the Advantage
As you parry your opponent's blows, you force him back across the battlefield.
Prerequisites: Improved Bull Rush, Improved Parry, Pressing Attack, Riposte
Description: After successfully parrying an attack, you may initiate a Bull Rush attempt in place of a normal riposte attack. You gain a +2 bonus to the check as if you were charging.


[hr]
Question:

Interaction with Fighting Defensively\Total Defense Action?

Replace? Supplement? (well as written they don't work together since you use your attack roll over your AC for that attack, but possibly a minimising of penalty or something)Total Defense would allow you to parry but not to riposte or use any other special things built off of parrying.

Fighting defensively penalty doesn't apply to parrying, just as the Combat Expertise penalty does not apply (see first post).


[hr]
Also, I suggest that the Dexterity be added to the parry roll. Seriously, it makes sense.If you have Weapon Finesse and the weapon is light/finesseable, then sure. It's an attack roll, so you apply modifiers as normal for an attack roll + parry specific modifiers.

Narmy
2009-12-24, 02:00 AM
Awh, see what ya mean.

I think alll ya do then, is just Replace CMD with the Parry for that case.

That's all.

Simple done, you're not breaking anything, and not everyone will parry.

I think that would work at least.

Maybe you suggested this already.

FlamingKobold
2009-12-24, 02:05 AM
I see the problem with Improved Riposte. I think 1/enemy would be okay.


Hidden Riposte I'll look at again in a few days (Christmas)

Press the Advantage: Good. I think it would be smart to make one of these for a disarm and trip. (Both are also thematically appropriate)

I'm out. See you.

Latronis
2009-12-24, 02:49 AM
Disarming Panache [General, Fighter]
Your skills have progressed to such a degree that you can now take advantage of the opening made by your parries to disarm your foe.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Dex 15, base attack +6, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Parry.
Benefit: When you successfully parry an attack, you may as an immediate action make a disarm attempt against the opponent's weapon you just parried at your full base attack bonus.

If you have atleast one hand free when you successfully disarm your foe you may opt to receive the weapon as if you were unarmed(take any appropiate penalties for two-weapon fighting where appropiate)

Special: A fighter may select this as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-24, 02:57 AM
Fighting Defensively and Total Defense actions are meant to represent parrying already. I see no reason to develop an extra mechanic. I also don't see why it's considered a dodge bonus, but whatever.

Latronis
2009-12-24, 02:58 AM
Fighting Defensively and Total Defense actions are meant to represent parrying already. I see no reason to develop an extra mechanic. I also don't see why it's considered a dodge bonus, but whatever.

Cos they suck?

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-24, 03:07 AM
That's true. But you really shouldn't need to even take an action to parry. It should be factored into AC like the first response mentioned. I haven't read the whole thing, but just looking at the first bit, it seems like a really clumsy mechanic that will only slow the game down severely.

Latronis
2009-12-24, 03:21 AM
Use up an AoO make an attack roll. It's not going to make a huge time difference. And it's certainly a more interesting method then +2 AC -4AB.

Rizban
2009-12-24, 01:38 PM
I thought about it a bit, and decided that this feat is probably the best way to incorporate the other special attacks into parrying.

Riposte Mastery [Tactical]
As you parry your opponent's blows, you gain better control of the battle.
Prerequisites: Improved Parry, Pressing Attack, Riposte
Benefit: This feat allows the use of three tactical maneuvers, each of which requires that you attempt a special attack immediately following a successful parry.

Press the Advantage: After successfully parrying an attack, you may immediately attempt to bull rush the opponent you parried in place of your normal riposte attack. You gain a +2 bonus to the check as if you were charging.
If you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat, your opponent receives an attack of opportunity against you as normal.

Disarming Flourish: After successfully parrying an attack, you may immediately attempt to disarm the weapon with which your opponent just attacked in place of your normal riposte attack. You may only disarm that weapon with which your opponent attacked, not any other item he possesses.
If you do not have the Improved Disarm feat, your opponent receives an attack of opportunity against you as normal.

Unbalancing Blow: After successfully parrying an attack, you may immediately attempt to trip the opponent you parried in place of your normal riposte attack. Make a melee touch attack with your weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack.
If you are using a weapon which does not normally allow trip attacks and do not have the Improved Trip feat, your opponent receives an attack of opportunity against you as normal.

Normal: Without this feat, a riposte attack can only be a standard melee attack.

FlamingKobold
2009-12-24, 02:26 PM
I think it's a good feat. Not overpowered, but still useful, especially in a low/no magic game.

Rizban
2009-12-24, 02:32 PM
Ok, I made minor edits to the first post.
Failing a parry now treats you as flat-footed for that attack rather than being an automatic hit against you.
Prereqs for Improved Parry changed to match the other Improved X feats from the PHB.
BAB prereq for Greater Parry reduced from +6 to +4, which allows a 4th level Fighter to take it, but other straight classes must still wait until 6th.
Added Riposte Mastery tactical feat.

Narmy
2009-12-24, 02:43 PM
FizbanRizban, I LOVE this system.

Tinydwarfman
2009-12-24, 03:58 PM
For more inspiration/ideas for your system check out GURPS. It has a great active defense system with parry/dodge/blocking. it uses 3d6 and a skill system, so you won't be able to directly take anything from it, but check out GURPS lite , its a free download: Here (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG31-0004)

Calmar
2009-12-24, 04:01 PM
AC assumes you take 10 and add your armor class modifiers. Why not simply roll AC vs Attack Roll?

Rizban
2009-12-24, 04:50 PM
FizbanRizban, I LOVE this system.
Coincidentally, I started using "Rizban" back in the late 80s or early 90s when I was a little kid as my superhero name when we played outside. It wasn't until sometime after 2000 that I actually picked up anything Dragonlance and came across the name Fizban.

Definitely glad you like the system though. :smallbiggrin:



For more inspiration/ideas for your system check out GURPS. It has a great active defense system with parry/dodge/blocking. it uses 3d6 and a skill system, so you won't be able to directly take anything from it, but check out GURPS lite , its a free download: Here (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG31-0004)

I'm quite familiar with GURPS. I actually cut my RPing teeth on 2nd edition GURPS and the majority of my gaming years playing 3rd. I have yet to try 4th ed GURPS but hear good things about it. Really though, I've tried to build this system completely within the standard system for D&D 3.5 without allowing it to be influenced by the methods of other systems. The mechanics of how this works, as well as the various penalty amounts, are rooted in the way other similar abilities work. I wanted to make this mesh well with existing rules so that it feels like a natural part of the game rather than an additional system tacked on. While it's a good system, it's not D&D, so I would rather not start including bits of that product here.



AC assumes you take 10 and add your armor class modifiers. Why not simply roll AC vs Attack Roll?

That is one officially suggested variant, yes. This is a different system entirely though. Rolling every AC check slows the game down more than this system does. It also makes armor bonuses less significant. Having low AC modifiers isn't as bad, and having high AC modifiers isn't as good, because you roll randomly to defend yourself.

If you would prefer to simply roll AC, then feel free to do so. This is presented as an alternative to random armor.

Draken
2009-12-24, 07:20 PM
Ok, just because you asked me to put my pointers in thread.

1.
This is a really simple and effective system and gives Attacks of Opportunity a good other use, a more active and less reactive one at that, this is very good, in my opinion.

2.
That said, I do not believe a second feat is necessary to make additional parries avaiable after Combat Reflexes is taken. In addition, Combat Expertise would be the best feat to work as prerequisite for Improved Parry. If this path were to be taken, Greater Parry could be used to allow the penalty from Combat Expertise to apply as a bonus to Parry and Riposte Attack and Damage rolls (and also to allow the Combat Expertise AC bonus to remain even after a failed parry attempt, since I believe it is lost if you are flat-footed, not sure however).

Latronis
2009-12-24, 10:52 PM
Hmm

Do they tactical options use up the riposte attack? So in a round you can either riposte, bullrush, disarm or trip?

Or are the attempts only limited by successful parries.

Rizban
2009-12-25, 01:03 AM
Draken, I like the suggestion, so I'll consider it and run a few playtests with the two variations to see how they work out in comparison.


You make it in place of a normal riposte. So, yes, it does use up the riposte attack for the round.

Latronis
2009-12-25, 02:09 AM
Draken, I like the suggestion, so I'll consider it and run a few playtests with the two variations to see how they work out in comparison.


You make it in place of a normal riposte. So, yes, it does use up the riposte attack for the round.

In that case you can clarify the riposte feat as an immediate action which will streamline the feat description since you dont need that extra rule line. Unless for some reason you want to still allow the swift or immediate action for the round you use a riposte option.

Rizban
2009-12-25, 03:19 AM
Unless for some reason you want to still allow the swift or immediate action for the round you use a riposte option.

This. I didn't think that making an AoO should cost your immediate action. Regardless of the type of attack you make, you can only make one riposte. It seems to work, and that extra bit isn't much on there.

Dax Thura
2009-12-26, 07:57 AM
Are we surely going to use this parry system? I may need to make a change or two once this system is finalized.

Rizban
2009-12-27, 04:25 PM
I think you posted that in the wrong thread, Dax.

Latronis
2009-12-27, 04:40 PM
Kind of inspired a new 'variant' martial class

Rizban
2009-12-27, 04:42 PM
Did it? I may look at that...

Latronis
2009-12-27, 04:47 PM
Did it? I may look at that...

Certainly, I just have finished the first draft yet.

kaiguy
2009-12-27, 05:18 PM
AC is a static number that becomes entirely reliant on magic and enhancements. While a fighter with full BAB gets increasing better at hitting stuff, he never learns to better defend himself. This system gives him a way to do that.

Actually, yes, a fighter does learn to better defend himself - it's called HP. It's the reason a blow that would have decapitated him when he was first level can be shrugged off without a Fort. save when he's twentieth: it doesn't do the same amount of damage. Mechanically it might be 8 points of damage, but at first level he might be dead (or close) and later it's a gash across his arm.

A 'problem' I see people trying to solve all the time is how to make the mechanics of combat more realistic. They were never meant to be realistic: they are an abstraction. Players start to think of an attack roll as a single action (one swing of the sword) rather than an abstraction of a series of actions that resulted in a 'hit' (after several back-and-forth fencing maneuvers), or a 'miss' (anything from failing to find a hole in your opponent's defenses to getting your sword stuck in a log.)

If you want to go this direction - i.e. one die roll equals one action - fine, but it's going to take a complete overhaul, rather than a combat system tweak. More interesting would be figuring out ways to model mechanically dismemberment. How come characters can be hacked half to death, but never lose a hand?

Rizban
2009-12-27, 06:02 PM
If you're interpreting melee combat in that way, then the last part of your argument isn't really valid.

If a single die roll approximates several attacks eventually resulting in a hit, then HP can't be a hard and fast damage measure. Rather, it would be approximated to a combination of fatigue, injury, and luck. Eventually, you grow too tired, have taken too many minor injuries, or run out of luck, and take a dismembering or fatal blow, which puts you out of the fight.

No fair interpreting one part of the system one way and another part in a totally different and unrelated way then using that to say this system doesn't "solve" anything is silly.



By your own description there, overcoming AC is managing to overcome a character's defense and HP is ability to take damage without dropping. HP then has nothing to do with defense.

Parrying affects a character's ability to avoid an attack entirely. It doesn't touch the ability to withstand damage, which is represented by hit points. Hence the "Toughness" feat adding hit points rather than an "Improved Defense" feat.



Finally, I never said that there was a "problem" to be "fixed" nor that this was intended to make combat in any way "realistic." Rather, it was specifically (see first post) to make them more like the great swashbuckler movies, such as Three Musketeers, Zorro, (the original) Count of Monte Christo, Scaramouche, The Princess Bride, and others. None of these are terribly "realistic," but the fight scenes are inherently "cool."

This system was devised to use already standardized D&D mechanics to represent the "cool factor" of these kinds of fights. Something which the original rules do not adequately provide.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-27, 06:52 PM
This is very awesome. I implemented a very similar system for my Dualist (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Dualist), but it makes much more sense as a generally available ability rather than a specific PrC's class feature. Nice.

My only concern is that it's incredibly feat intensive, even by a Fighter's standards...

Narmy
2009-12-27, 06:56 PM
I say, after that post, although I was dead set at using this system.

He's got me thinking about not using it ><

However, I do believe that I shall take this completed system and store it within my home brew section for possible use.

Rizban
2009-12-27, 07:24 PM
After looking at the "Dualist" homebrew briefly, I've considered adding this feat:

Feinting Riposte [General, Fighter]
Your riposte is faster than your opponent can prepare to face.
Requirements: Improved Feint, Improved Parry, Riposte
Benefit: As part of a standard riposte attack, you may make a feint attempt. If successful, your opponent is treated as flat-footed for your riposte attack only.
You may not use this feat with a special attack, such as from the Riposte Mastery feat.
Special: A fighter may select this as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Normal: You may not feint as part of a riposte attack.



I've considered allowing a +2 synergy bonus from Sense Motive on a parry attempt before, but I really think that's a bit much. You're already applying your existing attack bonuses to your parry attempt, and an extra +2 just seems like too much.



Overall, I like the flavor of the Dualist class, though I think I would implement some parts of it in a different way, particularly in light of this system.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-27, 08:46 PM
Certainly, with this system in place, I'd change the class. That would just make sense. Considering how feat intensive both this and TWF can be, simply having a class that gives both sets of feats at the same time seems worthwhile, and is probably how I would do it.

The Sense Motive benefit is there primarily because I required it as a skill to get into the class, just made sense to actually use it.

Latronis
2010-01-02, 06:11 AM
As promised.. New base class inspired by the parry rules. Obviously needs a fair bit of fine-tuning but this is it as a first draft. Should more likely be treated as a replacement for the generic fighter class rather than a new base class option, since it has the best features of it anyway. Should also have enough options to be fitting for several melee archetypes and be a slight improvement over what you can do with just the bonus feats.

WEAPON MASTER

Soldier, Swashbuckler, Martial Artist, even the odd mercenary the Weapon Master is the skilled combatant that knows his weapon is much as defensive tool as deadly weapon of war, learning to utilize a specific weapon to it's fullest. Weapon Masters Live for combat and few can stand toe to toe with them for long.

WEAPON MASTER
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0| Chosen Weapon, Adrenalin Rush.

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0| Expertise.

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1| Grace Or Dedication (+1).

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1| Chosen Weapon(Specialization), Adrenalin Maneuver.

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1| Parry.

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2| Grace or Dedication (Evasion or Mettle).

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2| Riposte.

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2| Chosen Weapon (Improved Critical), Adrenalin Maneuver.

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3| Grace Or Dedication (+2).

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+3|
+3| Chosen Weapon (Greater Focus).

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3| Grace or Dedication (Improved Evasion or Improved Mettle).

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4| Chosen Weapon (Greater Specialization), Adrenalin Maneuver.

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4| Riposte Mastery.

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4| Chosen Weapon (Mastery).

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5| Grace Or Dedication (+3).

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5| Adrenalin Maneuver.

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5| Deadly Riposte.

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6| Chosen Weapon (Supremacy).

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6| Crippling\Weakening\Wounding Critical.

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6| Adrenalin Maneuver, Deflect Magic.[/table]

Hit Die
d10.

Class Skills
The weapon master's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str) and Tumble (Dex).

Skill Points at 1st Level
(4 + Int modifier) 4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
4 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the weapon master.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A Weapon Master is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields.

Grace Or Dedication(Ex): At 3rd level a weapon master chooses between grace gaining a +1 competence bonus on reflex saves or dedication gaining a +1 competence bonus on will saves. This bonus increases to +2 at 9th level and +3 at 15th level.

In addition the weapon master who chooses grace gains Evasion at 6th level and Improved Evasion at 11th level. The weapon master who chose dedication instead receives Mettle at 6th level and Improved Mettle at 11th level.

Adrenalin Rush (Ex)
The first time you make a successful attack or successfully parry an attack during an encounter, you may opt to enter an adrenalin rush.

You can maintain an adrenalin rush for a number of rounds equal to your constitution modifier after entering it, +1 additional round per adrenalin maneuver you possess.

Benefit: You gain +1 Initiative and a 5' enhancement bonus to your base land speed for each adrenalin maneuver you have taken whenever you enter your adrenalin rush. Upon entering the adrenalin rush you may rearrange your place in the initiative order based on your new initiative.

Adrenalin Maneuvers
As you improve in experience you learn how to use your adrenalin rush to focusing your mind and body allowing you to perform seemingly super human feats in combat. Whenever you can take a new maneuver your adrenalin rush benefits improve and you learn new tricks to use in your rush.

Every 4 levels the weapon master learns an adrenalin maneuver and most improve based on the number of maneuvers known.

AWARENESS
your dedication to the art of fighting gives you a preternatural awareness of unseen threats.
Prerequisite: Adrenalin Rush, Dedication.
Benefit: While in your Adrenalin Rush you are treated as having blindsight to a range of 5 feet per 2 adrenalin maneuvers you have taken.

PANACHE
You don't only fight, you fight.. with style!
Prerequisite: Adrenalin Rush, Grace.
Benefit: Add your charisma modifier to all attack and damage rolls in your adrenalin rush upto twice the number of adrenalin maneuvers you have taken.

AGGRESSOR'S STABILITY
While maintaining your Adrenalin Rush you become difficult to dislodge becoming an unyielding force on the battlefield.
Prerequisite: Adrenalin Rush, Base Attack Bonus +2.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on checks or rolls to resist bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, parry, and trip attempts made against you during a Adrenalin Rush for each adrenalin maneuver you have taken.

POWER CRITICAL
Your focus in combat grants your blows that little extra oomph.
Prerequisite: Adrenalin Rush, Base Attack Bonus +4
Benefit: You receive +2 to all rolls to confirm critical hits with your chosen weapon for each adrenalin maneuver you have taken while in an adrenalin rush.

VIGOR
Your dedication to destroying your enemies allows you to overcome some of your natural frailties.
Prerequisite: Adrenalin Rush, Base Attack Bonus +6.
Benefit: While maintaining your Adrenalin Rush you gain fast healing 1. This improves by 1 for each adrenalin maneuver you have taken.

BRUTAL CRITICAL
You've learnt how to make the most of your blows, greatly improving the damage of your critical hits.
Prerequisite: Adrenalin Rush, Power Critical, Base Attack Bonus +8.
Benefit: While in an Adrenalin Rush your chosen weapon's critical multiplier is increased by 1. (eg. a weapon that deal x2 damage on a successful critical now deals x3 damage while in an adrenalin rush)

JUNKIE'S GAMBIT
Your aggressive combat style opens you up to attacks but allows you greater advantage in combat.
Prerequisite: Adrenalin Rush, Base Attack Bonus +10
Benefit: In your Adrenalin Rush anyone you threaten in combat receives +4 to hit and damage rolls against you but every time they attack you they provoke attacks of opportunity from you.

WEAPON FLURRY
Prerequisite: Adrenalin Rush, Base Attack Bonus +12.
Benefit: When you use a standard action to attack while in an adrenalin rush, you can choose to make a second attack with that weapon. Both attacks are made with a -2 penalty.

When you use a full attack action while in an adrenalin rush, you gain one additional attack at your highest base attack bonus. That attack and all other attacks you make in the round take a -2 penalty.

AGGRESSIVE STRIKE
By putting your all into your assault you can more effectively batter through your opponents defenses.
Prerequisite: Adrenalin Rush, Base Attack Bonus +14.
Benefit: You may choose to end your adrenalin rush as a swift action to gain a bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to the number of adrenalin maneuvers you have taken for the rest of your current turn.

GREATER WEAPON FLURRY
Prerequisite: Adrenalin Rush, Weapon Flurry, Base Attack Bonus +16.
Benefit: When making a flurry your attacks are no longer penalized.

Chosen Weapon:
The weapon master chooses a specific type of weapon he is proficient with as the focus of his training receiving many benefits with that weapon. A weapon master may choose to later redirect his focus to a new weapon transferring all accumulated benefits to the new chosen weapon whenever he receives a chosen weapon ability. A weapon master may at his desire use either his strength or dexterity modifier for attack rolls with his chosen weapon.

At 1st level the weapon master has weapon focus with his chosen weapon receiving +1 to all attack rolls with the chosen weapon.

At 4th level the weapon master receives weapon specialization with his chosen weapon receiving +2 to all damage rolls with the chosen weapon.

At 8th level the weapon master receives improved critical with his chosen weapon doubling the critical threat range of his chosen weapon.

At 10th level the weapon master receives greater weapon focus with his chosen weapon receiving an additional +1 to all attack rolls with the chosen weapon.

At 12th level the weapon master receives greater weapon specialization with his chosen weapon receiving an additional +2 to all damage rolls with his chosen weapon.

At 14th level the weapon master is treated as having Melee Weapon Mastery with his chosen weapon receiving an additional +2 to all attack and damage rolls with his chosen weapon.

At 18th level the weapon master receives weapon supremacy with his chosen weapon gaining a +4 bonus on all checks made to resist being disarmed and parried. In addition you can wield your weapon against a foe who grapples you without penalty and without first making a grapple check. In this situation, you can take a standard action or a full attack action as normal. When you take a full attack action, you can apply a +5 bonus to any single attack after your first strike. And once per round before making an attack roll, you can instead choose to treat your d20 result as a 10.
.
You gain an additional +2 bonus to attack rolls made to parry and riposte opponents.

Expertise (Ex): A weapon master of 2nd level is treated as having the combat expertise and combat reflexes feats even if he didn't meet the normal prerequisites. In addition the weapon master may opt to use his intelligence modifier instead of his dexterity modifier to determine the number of Attacks of Opportunity he may make in a round with the combat reflexes feat.

Parry (Ex): A weapon master of 5th level is treated as having the improved parry and greater parry feats even if he doesn't meet the normal prerequisites.

Riposte (Ex): A weapon master of 7th level receives the Riposte feat even if he doesnt meet the normal prerequisites. If you already have the Riposte feat you may choose another feat from the fighter bonus feats list you meet the prerequisites for.

Riposte Mastery (Ex): A weapon master of 13th level receives the Riposte Mastery feat even if he doesnt meet the normal prerequisites. If you already have the Riposte Mastery feat you may choose another feat from the fighter bonus feats list you meet the prerequisites for.

Deadly Riposte (Ex)*: A weapon master of 17th level receives the Deadly Riposte feat even if he doesn't meet the normal prerequisites. If you already have the Deadly Riposte feat you may choose another feat from the fighter bonus feats list you meet the prerequisites for.

*-new feat. See Below.

Crippling\Weakening\Wounding Critical (Ex): A weapon master of 19th level or higher who scores a critical hit against a creature with his chosen weapon also deals 1d4 points of your choice of Strength, Dexterity or Constitution damage to the creature. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this effect.

Deflect Magic (Ex): A weapon master of 20th level can now use his chosen weapon to parry magical ranged touch attacks. You may only make riposte attacks on a successful parry against casters you threaten.

Deadly Riposte [Parry]
You have become a master of counter-attacking after a successful parry, leaving your foes with lingering wounds that slowly bleed out.
Prerequisites: Improved Parry, Pressing Attack, Riposte, Base Attack Bonus +12
Benefit: Whenever you make a riposte attack that successfully deals hitpoint damage you leave the foe with a lingering wound dealing 1 damage per round(the damage is the same type as the base damage of the weapon used to make the riposte attack). Bleeding wound damage can be stopped with a DC15 heal check. Or any cure spell that successfully heals hitpoint damage. Increase the DC by 1 for each wound on the character.

arguskos
2010-01-04, 11:29 PM
I wanted to let you know, Rizban, that I'll be trying out Parry in my campaign starting on Saturday. When we get some results, I'll let you know of them. :smallredface:

Rizban
2010-05-07, 05:03 AM
It's been quite awhile since I updated this, but I haven't been able to get on the forums at all for much of that time either. My group and I have been play testing these rules for a few months now, and I've made some changes to improve the system as reflected in the first post.
The Greater Parry feat was removed completely

Combat Reflexes lets you make parry attempts like Greater Parry was once required to do, but it is no longer a required feat in the Parry feat tree. Combat Expertise is still required.

Improved Unarmed Strike now lets you parry unarmed.

Riposte Mastery now also allows you to Feint or Grapple if you have the Improved Feint or Improved Unarmed Strike feats respectively. The Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, and Improved Trip feats are no longer required to make those attempts without provoking AoOs during a riposte, but grapple attempts do provoke AoOs.

Pressing Attack was removed as a prereq for Riposte Mastery but still exists.

Minor number tweaks.





On another note, we've found this system is the most fun in a low to mid magic game. We've used it primarily with very lightly armored swashbucklers and pirates, though it works well with more heavily armored warriors as well.

We've also toyed with a mechanic that makes Power Attacks harder to parry, but we haven't yet come up with anything concrete that isn't just confusing to explain or cumbersome to use. So, I have not included that mechanic here.