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Hyooz
2009-12-24, 01:02 AM
My personal favorite is this:

Light Generation

Fully 30% of magic weapons shed light equivalent to a light spell (bright light in a 20-foot radius, shadowy light in a 40-foot radius). These glowing weapons are quite obviously magical. Such a weapon can’t be concealed when drawn, nor can its light be shut off. Some of the specific weapons detailed below always or never glow, as defined in their descriptions.

And there's no particular rule about being able to craft items specifically not to glow either, just that fully 30% of all magic weapons are really shiny. So if you have a party that can successfully sneak around in the dark, magical weapons drawn, consider yourself lucky.

arguskos
2009-12-24, 01:08 AM
The fact that you can't use multiple metamagic rods on the same spell always makes me smile when people do it. :smallamused: Note: it says in their descriptions on the SRD.

noiadodh
2009-12-24, 01:17 AM
PHB, Table 10–1: Items Affected by Magical Attacks

i never saw a DM that used this rule.. sometimes im not even sure of in which book this rule is on..

Yukitsu
2009-12-24, 01:19 AM
My group keeps forgetting what 3.5 haste does, and also conditions that nerf attacks of opportunity.

tahu88810
2009-12-24, 01:27 AM
Lighting of any kind, requiring food, conditions that nerf AoO's

Kantolin
2009-12-24, 01:29 AM
My personal favorite is this:

[I]Light Generation



Believe it or not, this comes up a heck of a lot in most of my real life games. Primarily since 'it is dark' is usually because 'so you can't see'.

For me, it's mishap rules. Everyone knows you don't use a scroll above your level, but hardly anyone actually knows (or cares) why this is the case, and we've had a couple times where we couldn't find where the rule was in the first place.

UserClone
2009-12-24, 01:35 AM
Scroll mishap rules are in the skill section under UMD.


The order in which your magic items get toasted if you roll a natch 1 on a Reflex save is a darn obscure one.

Edge of Dreams
2009-12-24, 01:36 AM
I think people forget a lot of the conditions and risks associated with spells. Like how you hear about genesis-ing a plane made of platinum, which the spell does not allow. Or how contact other plane gives you so much info, but even at level 20, it can have a 20% chance of giving no or false information.

tahu88810
2009-12-24, 01:37 AM
The order in which your magic items get toasted if you roll a natch 1 on a Reflex save is a darn obscure one.
I'm not even sure where to find the rules for magic items being damaged, let alone the order they're damaged in.

Suzuro
2009-12-24, 01:40 AM
The weight of money, enough said.


-Suzuro

SurlySeraph
2009-12-24, 01:43 AM
You can't sneak attack anything that has concealment. Since this means that if you don't have darkvision or low-light vision, you can't sneak attack in a darkened room... well...

Zaydos
2009-12-24, 01:44 AM
My players always forgot encumberance altogether. Every few levels I'd have to help people level and I'd go over their weight carried, and they'd have to drop 10~20 pounds of gear. Had to stop the warlock from buying a bag of holding that alone put him into a medium load.

But my party always forgot grappling rules altogether, only used them with giant scorpions.

Akisa
2009-12-24, 01:44 AM
That monks are not proficient with unarmed strikes :smalltongue:.

Reinboom
2009-12-24, 01:52 AM
My group keeps forgetting what 3.5 haste does, and also conditions that nerf attacks of opportunity.

Really? :smallconfused:
Haste was always a simple spell to me. "What happens when you get faster?" +1 to hit, reflex, ac, +30 to move speed, +1 attack on full attack.

Now, something that is caused by haste that I've found to be more obscure is:

Jump
If your speed is less than 30 feet, you take a -6 penalty for every 10 feet of speed less than 30 feet. If your speed is greater than 30 feet, you gain a +4 bonus for every 10 feet beyond 30 feet.

So, haste provides a large untyped bonus to jump checks.

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-24, 02:02 AM
Ran into an issue where a DM didn't know what maneuverability for flying creatures was. Manticore hovered and shot spikes all combat!!

Aside, 3.5 haste isn't hard it's just harder than simply getting more actioins like 3.0

Realms of Chaos
2009-12-24, 03:05 AM
Here's a rather obscure rule:

When you are affected by a confusion effect or something that imitates it (insanity) and are attacked, you automatically spend your next round attacking the attacker if still confused.
That's a useful one to remember.

Ernir
2009-12-24, 03:13 AM
You can manifest powers straight out of another's skull. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown)

Constrict (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#constrict) damage is dealt whenever you win a grapple check, not just when trying to deal damage. :smalleek:

That a surprise round (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#surprise) only allows a standard action and free actions, not a full round's worth of actions.

sonofzeal
2009-12-24, 03:40 AM
- Full Round Withdrawl.

- Spontaneous casters can metamagic swift/immediate spells with no increase to casting time.

- Drop Prone = free (not swift) action, +4 AC vs ranged, -4 AC vs melee.

olentu
2009-12-24, 03:43 AM
Constrict (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#constrict) damage is dealt whenever you win a grapple check, not just when trying to deal damage. :smalleek:

Hmm now that I think about it does not improved grap have something like this but for the attack that established the hold.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-24, 04:34 AM
Full attacks with ranged weapons don't provoke attacks of opportunity. The provocation for a ranged attack is only specified under the "Standard Actions" section of the Combat chapter. The table in the "Full-Round Actions" section says full attacks don't provoke AoOs, and the text there doesn't contradict that or make any exceptions.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 04:37 AM
spells without a somatic component are not subject to ASF.

Harperfan7
2009-12-24, 04:44 AM
scrolls can have multiple spells

scroll tubes sometimes have fire traps or glyphs of warding on them when randomly generated as treasure

you cannot be a cleric of a god if your race isn't on their common worshippers list (so no human clerics of corellon)

sense motive to get a hunch about something
sense motive to tell if someone is trustworthy

spell component pouches can be stolen via sleight of hand

taltamir
2009-12-24, 04:49 AM
An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. (making them the ultimate rogues :P)

Spell component pouches don't actually contain an infinite amount of components... it is just recommended that DMs let players have a good amount cheap components without having the tedium of micro managing them, assuming they have bought them in the local magic mart TM.

(in campaigns without magic marts, wizards somehow still have an infinite amount of relatively large components in their spell pouches, much more then could actually fit in said pouch)

Curmudgeon
2009-12-24, 06:22 AM
you cannot be a cleric of a god if your race isn't on their common worshippers list (so no human clerics of corellon)
That's not quite right. I can think of two exceptions.

Having the appropriate type of blood will qualify you to choose a racial deity; you need not be a pure member of the typical race. So Half-Human/Half-Elves can be Clerics of Corellon Larethian.
You cannot choose a racially-oriented deity as a Cleric if you're not of that race/blood, but that doesn't mean you can't be a Cleric of another race. Adventurers die, and Reincarnate can bring them back as a different race. They keep worshiping their original god.

Gralamin
2009-12-24, 06:24 AM
Full attacks with ranged weapons don't provoke attacks of opportunity. The provocation for a ranged attack is only specified under the "Standard Actions" section of the Combat chapter. The table in the "Full-Round Actions" section says full attacks don't provoke AoOs, and the text there doesn't contradict that or make any exceptions.

How does this interact with choosing to move after your first attack in a full attack? Would it give you a Get out of AoO free card, or would it somehow retrocausationally cause the first attack to provoke an AoO?

Curmudgeon
2009-12-24, 06:32 AM
How does this interact with choosing to move after your first attack in a full attack? Would it give you a Get out of AoO free card, or would it somehow retrocausationally cause the first attack to provoke an AoO?
It's just a fork in the option tree. At the time of the first AoO the player decides which way they're going to go: full attack (so no AoO), or take the AoO. If they commit to a full attack they can't take any move actions. If they take the AoO but then decide to full attack that's just too bad; they provoked by dithering, and that can't be undone. :smallsmile:

Sliver
2009-12-24, 07:08 AM
- Full Round Withdrawl.

I actually saw this one, used it (as a DM) and couldn't find it when a player asked about it mid-game...:smallredface:

deuxhero
2009-12-24, 07:25 AM
Where is that in the SRD anyways? I know it was in Troika's ToEE.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 07:27 AM
Rejoice, for I have used the Search function! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#withdraw)

The Dark Fiddler
2009-12-24, 07:43 AM
How does this interact with choosing to move after your first attack in a full attack? Would it give you a Get out of AoO free card, or would it somehow retrocausationally cause the first attack to provoke an AoO?

Isn't the movement a 5-foot step, and therefore AoO free?

jmbrown
2009-12-24, 08:02 AM
Speaking of withdraw, I was (for some odd reason) always under the impression until relatively recently that you had to move in a straight line to withdraw. Someone "withdrawing" can simply move 10' if they wanted and still get the benefits. Why they would want to is beyond me but it goes without saying they can.

Duke of URL
2009-12-24, 08:11 AM
Isn't the movement a 5-foot step, and therefore AoO free?

The rules allow you to make your first attack and then decide whether or not to make it a full attack. By RAW, you can actually change your action based the result of part of that action -- it's a rather unusual rule.

The point is, if a full attack does not provoke an AoO, then you have an odd case where a player can make his/her first attack, and then decide whether or not to continue with the full attack or take the AoO.

lesser_minion
2009-12-24, 09:17 AM
Two characters fighting each other unarmed (characters with IUS are not considered unarmed) are not in melee, so there is no penalty for shooting either of them (unless they enter a grapple).

Try getting your DM not to houserule that if it comes up.

As for the full attack with ranged (or non-existent) weapons thing - it doesn't follow. The rules for each kind of 'normal' attack are explained under the standard action. The only thing that changes when you full attack is the number of attacks you get.

"Withdraw" wasn't originally an action, but people were extremely confused by it, so it was changed.

The bottom line is that if you do nothing but move, and that move is not a run, you don't count the square you started in as threatened.

KillianHawkeye
2009-12-24, 10:08 AM
Two characters fighting each other unarmed (characters with IUS are not considered unarmed) are not in melee, so there is no penalty for shooting either of them (unless they enter a grapple).

How does that work? Unarmed strikes are melee weapons whether you have IUS or not, aren't they?

Calmar
2009-12-24, 10:21 AM
The DC for Listen checks (also for Spot checks, if I'm not mistaken) increases by +1 per every 10 feet of distance.

Samb
2009-12-24, 10:25 AM
A lot of people on the OP boards and DM seem to forget that planar binding pssies off the outsiders they summon. This spell is often cited, and for good reason, as the reason wizards are awesome. And it is, in the short run. But many just forget to remind the players that no one likes to be enslaved and blasted with debuffs for weeks on end. Planar binding isn't the only spell but it is the easiest target since it's consequences are often hand-waved.

Another rule that DMs forget is: you can say no to your players.

lesser_minion
2009-12-24, 10:40 AM
How does that work? Unarmed strikes are melee weapons whether you have IUS or not, aren't they?

Two characters are in melee if they are enemies and one threatens the other.

Unarmed characters don't threaten an area.

In theory, ranged weapon users don't threaten any area either, unless their weapon is also usable in melee (e.g. a throwing weapon, a bladed crossbow, or an elvencraft bow).

It's the main reason I believe that the rule should be "while you still have a threatened area, you may not make attacks of opportunity while unarmed".

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-24, 11:28 AM
A lot of people on the OP boards and DM seem to forget that planar binding pssies off the outsiders they summon. This spell is often cited, and for good reason, as the reason wizards are awesome. And it is, in the short run. But many just forget to remind the players that no one likes to be enslaved and blasted with debuffs for weeks on end. Planar binding isn't the only spell but it is the easiest target since it's consequences are often hand-waved.

Wizard: Serve me until you die.
ChumpOutsider: Er, no can do, boss, I'll work for you for so many days. No promises after that.
Wizard: How does nine days sound to you?
ChumpOutsider: Fine.
*8 days later*
Wizard: Oh, looks like we've got a serious fight ahead of us. Here, let me buff you.
ChumpOutsider: Okay.
Wizard proceeds to cast a Save or Die with predictable results.


This is why people don't worry about the ChumpOutsider's feelings.

Riffington
2009-12-24, 11:34 AM
Wizard: Serve me until you die.
ChumpOutsider: Er, no can do, boss, I'll work for you for so many days. No promises after that.
Wizard: How does nine days sound to you?
ChumpOutsider: Fine.
*8 days later*
Wizard: Oh, looks like we've got a serious fight ahead of us. Here, let me buff you.
ChumpOutsider: Okay.
Wizard proceeds to cast a Save or Die with predictable results.


This is why people don't worry about the ChumpOutsider's feelings.

Outsider's boss: It's been 10* days since Larry came into work. I better investigate this.

*2 with a less lenient DM.

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-24, 11:41 AM
I think people forget a lot of the conditions and risks associated with spells. Like how you hear about genesis-ing a plane made of platinum, which the spell does not allow. Or how contact other plane gives you so much info, but even at level 20, it can have a 20% chance of giving no or false information.

People use Genesis for a reason other than screwing with their plane's Time trait?

My favorite rule is that Quintessence hinders Psionic activity. When combined with the Magic-Psionics Transparency, you have a low-level way to hinder Casters and Manifesters alike.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-24, 11:46 AM
Outsider's boss: It's been 10* days since Larry came into work. I better investigate this.

*2 with a less lenient DM.

This is why we grab demons instead of devils or angels, because, really, out of the infinite abyss, who's going to miss some schmoe.:smalltongue:

John Campbell
2009-12-24, 11:54 AM
Two characters are in melee if they are enemies and one threatens the other.

Unarmed characters don't threaten an area.

In theory, ranged weapon users don't threaten any area either, unless their weapon is also usable in melee (e.g. a throwing weapon, a bladed crossbow, or an elvencraft bow).

It's the main reason I believe that the rule should be "while you still have a threatened area, you may not make attacks of opportunity while unarmed".

That has implications for other effects that are not attacks of opportunity, but are based on threatened squares, like the Knight's zone of difficult terrain, or the Mage Slayer's zone of no defensive casting.

It'd be easier, and make more sense, I think, to redefine being "in melee".

lesser_minion
2009-12-24, 11:58 AM
That has implications for other effects that are not attacks of opportunity, but are based on threatened squares, like the Knight's zone of difficult terrain, or the Mage Slayer's zone of no defensive casting.

It'd be easier, and make more sense, I think, to redefine being "in melee".

That's why when I first mentioned it on this thread, I pointed out that the DM should houserule it.

Personally, I assume that a character's threatened area and the area into which they can make a melee attack (including unarmed) are always the same, whether they can make attacks of opportunity or not.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-24, 12:35 PM
The rules allow you to make your first attack and then decide whether or not to make it a full attack. By RAW, you can actually change your action based the result of part of that action -- it's a rather unusual rule.

The point is, if a full attack does not provoke an AoO, then you have an odd case where a player can make his/her first attack, and then decide whether or not to continue with the full attack or take the AoO.
Even in this situations some decisions can't be undone. If you're wielding two weapons you need to decide if you're imposing the Two-Weapon Fighting penalties before your first attack. And if that misses but would have been a hit without the TWF penalty, too bad; you can't undo that decision, even if you decide to move away rather than continue the attack.

Signmaker
2009-12-24, 01:14 PM
Wind/Weather effects, unless extremely plot relevant.

ericgrau
2009-12-24, 01:34 PM
Sig. :smallbiggrin:

taltamir
2009-12-24, 01:54 PM
Two characters are in melee if they are enemies and one threatens the other.

Unarmed characters don't threaten an area.

In theory, ranged weapon users don't threaten any area either, unless their weapon is also usable in melee (e.g. a throwing weapon, a bladed crossbow, or an elvencraft bow).

It's the main reason I believe that the rule should be "while you still have a threatened area, you may not make attacks of opportunity while unarmed".

this must have been done to avoid rule lawyering and to keep things as intended and avoid some abuses... with the unintended consequence of allowing just that.

Kris Strife
2009-12-24, 01:59 PM
this must have been done to avoid rule lawyering and to keep things as unintended and avoid some abuses... with the unintended consequence of allowing just that.

So... Business as normal for WotC?

UserClone
2009-12-24, 03:15 PM
I don't see the issue. They are in melee if one can hit the other in melee. If neither can hit the other, then they aren't in melee (and thus one can be targeted for a ranged attack by a third party without the -4 penalty).

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 03:19 PM
I don't see the issue. They are in melee if one can hit the other in melee. If neither can hit the other, then they aren't in melee (and thus one can be targeted for a ranged attack by a third party without the -4 penalty).

But if neither of them has Improved Unarmed Strike, the RAW definition for 'in melee' doesn't apply.

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-24, 03:21 PM
I don't see the issue. They are in melee if one can hit the other in melee. If neither can hit the other, then they aren't in melee (and thus one can be targeted for a ranged attack by a third party without the -4 penalty).

They are not considered "in melee" if no other creature's melee reach threatens them. Because unarmed combatants cannot threaten in their natural melee reach without a natural weapon or Improved Unarmed Strike, the two are not considered "in melee" as per the definition of the term in the rules.

Deadbolt
2009-12-24, 03:31 PM
The weight of money, enough said.


-Suzuro

One of my old school D&D friends always obeyed encumberance rules. He told me how he and his party always just completely ignored any copper pieces they came across. Even after they got bags of holding and the like. They just didn't consider them worth the effort.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 03:34 PM
ugh... encumbrance to begin with... anyone with less than 14 strength has problem carrying his essential gear to battle.
And if they do have that much str, they probably have heavier gear and need more stuff...

You have food, bedrolls, books, water skins, clothes, armor... everything has weight, and way too much of it.

onthetown
2009-12-24, 03:40 PM
Just how much a Bag of Holding can hold is usually ignored in our campaigns... Probably because it's not worth the trouble to figure it out for the DM, since we hoarde so many items. :smallamused:

I'm not even sure if there's a rule for this: if you're carrying your bedroll, tent, winter blanket, fishing gear, bow, swords, etc, how the heck are you supposed to fight? Everything just magically disappears during the fight, then comes back at night? I suppose you could say you drop it, but I've never heard of any player specifically saying, "I take the time to lovingly unbuckle all of my gear from my back as the army of orcs advances on our party." Since there's so much awkward gear an adventurer carries (the tent always baffles me), it would be hard to drop it easily in an emergency.

Sliver
2009-12-24, 03:43 PM
ugh... encumbrance to begin with... anyone with less than 14 strength has problem carrying his essential gear to battle.
And if they do have that much str, they probably have heavier gear and need more stuff...

You have food, bedrolls, books, water skins, clothes, armor... everything has weight, and way too much of it.

Uhh.. A beginner DM's game I made a character for uses encumbrance and my character is just under medium load while only wearing chain shirt.. I hate that!

Kylarra
2009-12-24, 03:45 PM
Just how much a Bag of Holding can hold is usually ignored in our campaigns... Probably because it's not worth the trouble to figure it out for the DM, since we hoarde so many items. :smallamused:

I'm not even sure if there's a rule for this: if you're carrying your bedroll, tent, winter blanket, fishing gear, bow, swords, etc, how the heck are you supposed to fight? Everything just magically disappears during the fight, then comes back at night? I suppose you could say you drop it, but I've never heard of any player specifically saying, "I take the time to lovingly unbuckle all of my gear from my back as the army of orcs advances on our party." Since there's so much awkward gear an adventurer carries (the tent always baffles me), it would be hard to drop it easily in an emergency.
You keep it all in a sack and drop it on the ground of course.

sofawall
2009-12-24, 03:51 PM
Just how much a Bag of Holding can hold is usually ignored in our campaigns... Probably because it's not worth the trouble to figure it out for the DM, since we hoarde so many items. :smallamused:

I'm not even sure if there's a rule for this: if you're carrying your bedroll, tent, winter blanket, fishing gear, bow, swords, etc, how the heck are you supposed to fight? Everything just magically disappears during the fight, then comes back at night? I suppose you could say you drop it, but I've never heard of any player specifically saying, "I take the time to lovingly unbuckle all of my gear from my back as the army of orcs advances on our party." Since there's so much awkward gear an adventurer carries (the tent always baffles me), it would be hard to drop it easily in an emergency.

Tents can be folded up really small.

Also, isn't that kinda the entire point of Medium/Heavy Load penalties?

Sliver
2009-12-24, 03:53 PM
Oh! I have one!

Some creatures are immune to crits! This one was forgotten at my games due to the excitement of rolling a nat20..

taltamir
2009-12-24, 03:54 PM
massive damage, if you do/take enough damage you need to make a save or die

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 03:56 PM
massive damage, if you do/take enough damage you need to make a save or die

And it's only fifty.

At around level 10 and over you really should be making a Fort save every time you take damage and you probably won't make it because the save is stupidly hard.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 03:58 PM
And it's only fifty.

At around level 10 and over you really should be making a Fort save every time you take damage and you probably won't make it because the save is stupidly hard.

exactly :)

Sliver
2009-12-24, 03:58 PM
And it's only fifty.

At around level 10 and over you really should be making a Fort save every time you take damage and you probably won't make it because the save is stupidly hard.

Well yeah, one is bound to fail that DC15 eventually, rolling 1 probably..

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 03:59 PM
Well yeah, one is bound to fail that DC15 eventually, rolling 1 probably..

Oh, only 15.

Right, the "x + damage taken" one was coup de grace. Right.

Well, okay. At high levels you'll roll a one eventually and instantly die.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 04:00 PM
Well yeah, one is bound to fail that DC15 eventually, rolling 1 probably..

your level 10 squishy with low fort only fails a DC15 on a roll of nat 1?
besides, you should be rolling often... eventually you will roll a 1.

btw... it says massive damage is 1 single attack... not 1 single physical attack...
So, does that mean all direct damage spells double as a SoD?

this makes empowered fireball hilariously delicious.

Do you auto fail a save on a nat1? i thought only attacks auto failed on a 1, but not saves or skill checks.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 04:03 PM
your level 10 squishy with low fort only fails a DC15 on a roll of nat 1?
besides, you should be rolling often... eventually you will roll a 1.

btw... it says massive damage is 1 single attack... not 1 single physical attack...
So, does that mean all direct damage spells double as a SoD?

You need to roll 14d6 or more damage to reliably deal 50 or more damage with a direct damage spell. But at that point, yes, they do double as SoD. Sucky SoD, but SoD nontheless.

Sliver
2009-12-24, 04:04 PM
your level 10 squishy with low fort only fails a DC15 on a roll of nat 1?
besides, you should be rolling often... eventually you will roll a 1.

If you are squishy with low fort and get hit for 50, you are probably doing something wrong and won't live long anyway..

Edit: Yes, saves auto fail and auto succeed on nat 1 and 20..

taltamir
2009-12-24, 04:04 PM
You need to roll 14d6 or more damage to reliably deal 50 or more damage with a direct damage spell. But at that point, yes, they do double as SoD. Sucky SoD, but SoD nontheless.

it sounds rather effective against enemy casters...

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 04:05 PM
Hahah no it's not. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#massiveDamage)

Edit: I know you posted that, Kylarra.

Sliver
2009-12-24, 04:08 PM
Hahah no it's not. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#massiveDamage)

Edit: I know you posted that, Kylarra.

I am probably missing something but.. What did you respond to?

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 04:09 PM
Kylarra apparently thought it was a variant rule and posted a smug post informing us of that fact.

Then she must have actually read the page she linked to (this one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/massaveDamageThresholdsAndResults.htm)) and noticed it links to the actual core rule on the second word, because she deleted the post in the ten seconds it took me to make that reply.

I should have quoted.

Saph
2009-12-24, 04:33 PM
Ones that come up again and again and again in my games, to the point where I get sick of reminding players about them:

• You can't take a five-foot step into difficult terrain.

(I have to repeat this one once per session minimum.)

• You can't take an AoO if the target has cover from you.

(Again, this is one I have to repeat ad nauseam. Every bloody tripmonkey with his spiked chain seems to think he should be able to AoO everything in a 20' radius if it so much as twitches, even if the target's around a corner, through a web, and has three allies in between.)

• You can't prepare spells more than once per day.

Wizard: I sleep 8 hours and prepare spells.
Me: You can't.
Wizard: Why not?
Me: Because you can only prepare spells once every 24 hours.
Wizard: So when can I prepare spells next?
Me: 23 hours, 30 minutes.
Wizard: That sucks. Why do I have to wait so long?
Me: Because it's 8:30 in the morning and you woke up and started preparing spells half an hour ago.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-24, 04:44 PM
• You can't take an AoO if the target has cover from you.

(Again, this is one I have to repeat ad nauseam. Every bloody tripmonkey with his spiked chain seems to think he should be able to AoO everything in a 20' radius if it so much as twitches, even if the target's around a corner, through a web, and has three allies in between.)




Which is why smart bloody tripmonkeys take Exotic Weapon Master.

On-topic, I'd put forth the rules for determining weather. They're fairly complicated...but has anyone ever seen them used? As Elan puts it, it only rains when dramatically appropriate.

lesser_minion
2009-12-24, 04:51 PM
I actually completely forgot about the rule against making attacks of opportunity into cover, but you're right. (I'm unfamiliar with Exotic Weapon Master, so I don't know how it helps)

They could have been a lot more explicit about it though.

5ft-steps are likewise, although that restriction wasn't always there.

I'm not too sure about the spell refreshment thing though. Could you point me to that rule?

arguskos
2009-12-24, 04:52 PM
Which is why smart bloody tripmonkeys take Exotic Weapon Master.

On-topic, I'd put forth the rules for determining weather. They're fairly complicated...but has anyone ever seen them used? As Elan puts it, it only rains when dramatically appropriate.
I brought that up once, and my group demanded I roll for weather as appropriate. I did so. We got two tornadoes and a blizzard. In one day of weather. They were level 5. It was ugly. :smallyuk:

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-24, 04:56 PM
Another obscure one: You can multiclass into Cloistered Cleric, and then multiclass into regular Cleric and have both of those classes count as two different base classes. Yeah, the Variant Classes rule in UA was kinda screwed up.

lesser_minion
2009-12-24, 04:59 PM
Another obscure one: You can multiclass into Cloistered Cleric, and then multiclass into regular Cleric and have both of those classes count as two different base classes. Yeah, the Variant Classes rule in UA was kinda screwed up.

Interesting.

Every variant class I've seen since then has been very clear that you are absolutely forbidden from entering the unmodified class or a different variant thereof once you've entered a variant, and that taking the unmodified class also precludes you from ever entering a variant.

Serenity
2009-12-24, 05:00 PM
Kylarra apparently thought it was a variant rule and posted a smug post informing us of that fact.

Then she must have actually read the page she linked to (this one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/massaveDamageThresholdsAndResults.htm)) and noticed it links to the actual core rule on the second word, because she deleted the post in the ten seconds it took me to make that reply.

I should have quoted.


It was a variant rule in 3.0, which would be the source of the confusion.

Tokiko Mima
2009-12-24, 05:06 PM
Hardly anyone remembers to declare Dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#dodge) (excepting certain Goblins (http://goblins.keenspot.com/d/20060204.html),) and rightly so, I might add. It's a very annoying mechanic. :smallbiggrin:

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 05:07 PM
Hardly anyone remembers to declare Dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#dodge) (excepting certain Goblins (http://goblins.keenspot.com/d/20060204.html),) and rightly so, I might add. It's a very annoying mechanic. :smallbiggrin:

That's because nobody takes Dodge. They take Desert Wind Dodge instead.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 05:09 PM
That's because nobody takes Dodge. They take Desert Wind Dodge instead.

where is it from and what does it do?

Tokiko Mima
2009-12-24, 05:10 PM
That's because nobody takes Dodge. They take Desert Wind Dodge instead.

Unless their DM hates Tome of Battle with a completely unreasonable and inflexible passion. Melee can't have nice things. :smallfrown::smallannoyed::smallfrown:

Sinfire Titan
2009-12-24, 05:11 PM
Unless their DM hates Tome of Battle with a completely unreasonable and inflexible passion. Melee can't have nice things. :smallfrown::smallannoyed::smallfrown:

In which case you take the next best version: Midnight Dodge.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 05:13 PM
where is it from and what does it do?

Tome of Battle. The prerequisites are Dex 13 and one Desert Wind maneuver (easy to get by taking a single level of Swordsage, or taking Martial Maneuver). When you move at least 10 feet you gain a +1 Dodge bonus to AC against all attacks and +1 fire damage to attacks dealt with Desert Wind weapons. It also counts as dodge for all prerequisite purposes.

So, basically, if you qualify for Desert Wind Dodge there is absolutely no reason to take Dodge. Unless you really, really want an extra +1 AC against a single opponent per round.

Then there's Midnight Dodge, from Magic of Incarnum, which is like Dodge except the bonus to AC equals the amount of essentia you invested in the feat. It also counts as Dodge for all purposes. So, when you first take it it's just like Dodge - but it scales with level, up to +4 AC if you have enough essentia (trivially easy). And it's even easier to qualify for then Desert Wind Dodge (Dex and Con 13.)

Absolutely no reason to take Dodge.

jseah
2009-12-24, 05:17 PM
• You can't prepare spells more than once per day.

Wizard: I sleep 8 hours and prepare spells.
Me: You can't.
Wizard: Why not?
Me: Because you can only prepare spells once every 24 hours.
Wizard: So when can I prepare spells next?
Me: 23 hours, 30 minutes.
Wizard: That sucks. Why do I have to wait so long?
Me: Because it's 8:30 in the morning and you woke up and started preparing spells half an hour ago.
Got a quote? SRD says that you can prepare slots you left open that morning at any time of the day, but it takes at least 15 mins to 1 hour.

And that the only limitation for that is:

She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest.
Nothing about preparing only once per 24 hours.

The time of day limitation is for Divine spells only.

However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-24, 05:19 PM
Desert Wind Dodge isn't trivially easy to qualify for if feat-starved (I have a gestalt character looking to qualify for both Dervish and Swiftblade by level 6, having gotten permission to take them on each side by the DM, and that's a lot of feats to get, so fitting in Martial Maneuver for Desert Wind Dodge was... iffy), but Midnight Dodge... I'd missed the bit where you didn't need to have a pre-existing source of essentia. That's... nifty.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 05:20 PM
A single level of swordsage never hurt anyone.

But yes, Midnight Dodge is easier to qualify for - but it requires more resource investment to reach its maximum effectiveness. With Desert Wind Dodge, you can get the most out of it right away.

taltamir
2009-12-24, 05:22 PM
what if you take all three dodge varients together?

and a level of sword sage hurts full casters...

Curmudgeon
2009-12-24, 05:22 PM
Another obscure one: You can multiclass into Cloistered Cleric, and then multiclass into regular Cleric and have both of those classes count as two different base classes.
Possible, but only as a DM's choice to stretch the rules. See Unearthed Arcana's sidebar at the bottom of page 48 where they discuss this, and state that:
For variants that are wholly separate from the character class—such as the bardic sage or the urban ranger—multiclassing, even into multiple variants of the same class, is probably okay.
Since regular Cleric and Cloistered Cleric aren't "wholly separate", UA says progressing in both is probably not okay.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-12-24, 05:22 PM
Desert Wind Dodge isn't trivially easy to qualify for if feat-starved (I have a gestalt character looking to qualify for both Dervish and Swiftblade by level 6, having gotten permission to take them on each side by the DM, and that's a lot of feats to get, so fitting in Martial Maneuver for Desert Wind Dodge was... iffy), but Midnight Dodge... I'd missed the bit where you didn't need to have a pre-existing source of essentia. That's... nifty.

Expeditous dodge? no pre-requisites, its bonus against ALL enemies if you move at least 40 ft each round(which considering those classes I am pretty sure you will)

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 05:24 PM
what if you take all three dodge varients together?

and a level of sword sage hurts full casters...

Then you've spent three feats for a +3 to +6 bonus to AC - and +2 to +5 of that only applies to one attacker. Well done you.

And a single level of missed spellcasting progression doesn't hurt full casters that much. They still get 9th level spells, just one level late.

CockroachTeaParty
2009-12-24, 05:24 PM
On-topic, I'd put forth the rules for determining weather. They're fairly complicated...but has anyone ever seen them used? As Elan puts it, it only rains when dramatically appropriate.

When our group played through the Red Hand of Doom, our DM took the time to figure out the weather for each day. Our Spirit Shaman used his Survival skill to predict the weather, which helped determine our travel preparations.

When it came time for the battle of Brindol, the Shaman used his magic to 'supplement' the rainstorm that arrived, turning the fields outside the town into a muddy quagmire. The weather actually helped us delay the army's approach.

So, yes, I've seen them used, and it was good fun. Of course, RHoD is very time-sensitive, and the schedule lends itself well to the weather rules. When you're slogging around underground in a dungeon, then yes, they'll probably be ignored, and with good reason.

Irreverent Fool
2009-12-24, 05:44 PM
Really? :smallconfused:
Haste was always a simple spell to me. "What happens when you get faster?" +1 to hit, reflex, ac, +30 to move speed, +1 attack on full attack.

Now, something that is caused by haste that I've found to be more obscure is:

Jump
If your speed is less than 30 feet, you take a -6 penalty for every 10 feet of speed less than 30 feet. If your speed is greater than 30 feet, you gain a +4 bonus for every 10 feet beyond 30 feet.

So, haste provides a large untyped bonus to jump checks.

And dwarves really suck at jumping, especially in armor. It also means the the Boots of Striding and Springing actually end up giving a +9 to jump checks.

obnoxious
sig

lesser_minion
2009-12-24, 06:01 PM
It was a variant rule in 3.0, which would be the source of the confusion.

Not so at all



What Hit Points Represent: ...
Damaging Helpless Defenders: ...
Effects of Hit Point Damage: ...
Massive Damage: If you ever sustain damage so massive that a single attack deals 50 points of damage or more and doesn't kill you outright, you must make a fortitude save...

Nowhere does this say these are variant rules.

Irreverent Fool
2009-12-24, 06:05 PM
Not so at all
Nowhere does this say these are variant rules.

Source of confusion:

Original Rule:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryanddeath.htm

Variants:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/massaveDamageThresholdsAndResults.htm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/massaveDamageThresholdsAndResults.htm)

If you do a search in this SRD for 'massive damage' you get the variants as the first result. The 50 hp core rule is under 'Injury and Death'

obnoxious
sig

lesser_minion
2009-12-24, 06:11 PM
Source of confusion:

Original Rule:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryanddeath.htm

Variants:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/massaveDamageThresholdsAndResults.htm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/massaveDamageThresholdsAndResults.htm)

If you do a search in this SRD for 'massive damage' you get the variants as the first result. The 50 hp core rule is under 'Injury and Death'

obnoxious
sig

I know. There isn't as much excuse for making the same mistake with a player's handbook though (as it doesn't present the variant at all).

Ravingdork
2009-12-24, 06:40 PM
Constrict (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#constrict) damage is dealt whenever you win a grapple check, not just when trying to deal damage. :smalleek:

This is no longer true. Rules Compendium fixed it.

Also, I've known about every little rule in this thread with the sole exception of the psionic theft one you mentioned. Good job at impressing an otherwise excellent rules lawyer.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-24, 08:01 PM
Expeditous dodge? no pre-requisites, its bonus against ALL enemies if you move at least 40 ft each round(which considering those classes I am pretty sure you will)
Ooh, where's that one?

RandomLunatic
2009-12-24, 08:07 PM
Ooh, where's that one?

Races of the Wild.

Steward
2009-12-24, 08:12 PM
Not obscure, but I've never really used or understood how the spell Magic Missile worked...

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 08:20 PM
Not obscure, but I've never really used or understood how the spell Magic Missile worked...

...How is it difficult to figure out?

It fires one missile plus one for every odd caster level above 1 (up to a max of 5 missiles at caster level 9). Each missile does 1d4+1 damage, affects incorporeal and ethereal targets, and can be individually aimed at any target within Close range.

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-24, 08:33 PM
Magic Missile has Medium range, not Close.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-24, 08:37 PM
Holy crap I give up today.

Bibliomancer
2009-12-24, 08:52 PM
When our group played through the Red Hand of Doom, our DM took the time to figure out the weather for each day. Our Spirit Shaman used his Survival skill to predict the weather, which helped determine our travel preparations.

When it came time for the battle of Brindol, the Shaman used his magic to 'supplement' the rainstorm that arrived, turning the fields outside the town into a muddy quagmire. The weather actually helped us delay the army's approach.

So, yes, I've seen them used, and it was good fun. Of course, RHoD is very time-sensitive, and the schedule lends itself well to the weather rules. When you're slogging around underground in a dungeon, then yes, they'll probably be ignored, and with good reason.

In the most recent session of my campaign, I put my players up against 2 water elementals in a hurricane on a boat in the middle of the ocean. They won (barely), mainly because their kobold sorcerer used major illusion to frighten one of the two water elementals away (he was rather imaginative and rolled well on Bluff).

Sliver
2009-12-25, 01:18 AM
...How is it difficult to figure out?

It fires one missile plus one for every odd caster level above 1 (up to a max of 5 missiles at caster level 9). Each missile does 1d4+1 damage, affects incorporeal and ethereal targets, and can be individually aimed at any target within Close range.

Sometimes people forget you can't target not-creatures with it..

RandomLunatic
2009-12-25, 01:24 AM
Sometimes people forget you can't target not-creatures with it..

You mean I can't Magic Missile the darkness?:smallfrown:

EDIT: For an actual contribution, did you know size modifiers apply to STR checks to bash down doors (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#breakingItems)? And curiously, only doors.

Gralamin
2009-12-25, 01:27 AM
You mean I can't Magic Missile the darkness?:smallfrown:

EDIT: For an actual contribution, did you know size modifiers apply to STR checks to bash down doors (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#breakingItems)? And curiously, only doors.

Only if its a Caller in Darkness

I've seen in the Strength checks to bash down doors applied to a few other things in adventures before though.

Zaydos
2009-12-25, 01:30 AM
You mean I can't Magic Missile the darkness?:smallfrown:

I've always just pointed out the darkness has total concealment... because it's fun.

UserClone
2009-12-25, 09:40 AM
Now as far as Massive Damage, I was always under the impression that it was 50 or more points of damage in a single attack, which is to say something that requires an attack roll. So are we sure a fireball still counts?:smallconfused:

Curmudgeon
2009-12-25, 10:07 AM
Now as far as Massive Damage, I was always under the impression that it was 50 or more points of damage in a single attack, which is to say something that requires an attack roll. So are we sure a fireball still counts?:smallconfused:
Pretty sure, yes. Here's something from the Invisibility spell:
The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe.
If it looks like an attack, and hurts like an attack for 50+ points, you'll need to make the save.

AslanCross
2009-12-25, 10:50 AM
When our group played through the Red Hand of Doom, our DM took the time to figure out the weather for each day. Our Spirit Shaman used his Survival skill to predict the weather, which helped determine our travel preparations.

When it came time for the battle of Brindol, the Shaman used his magic to 'supplement' the rainstorm that arrived, turning the fields outside the town into a muddy quagmire. The weather actually helped us delay the army's approach.


Same here. I've used it too, but it slowed down the PCs instead of the Red Hand. :smallbiggrin:

"We need to get there ASAP."
"But I don't wanna walk through the rain!"
"...alright. We'll wait another day."

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-25, 11:06 AM
Energy resistance is per round, not per attack.

You can not make attacks of opportunity when flat-footed, nor can you use immediate actions.

When casting a spell with a casting time of "1 round", the spell is completed at the beginning of your next turn, not the end of your current one.

Creatures with DR /magic can defeat the damage reduction of other creatures with DR /magic with their natural attacks. This applies to /epic too.

I've seen a lot of people forget that a weapon needs to be +1 or higher before adding in special abilities.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-25, 11:10 AM
Ones that come up again and again and again in my games, to the point where I get sick of reminding players about them:

• You can't take a five-foot step into difficult terrain.

(I have to repeat this one once per session minimum.)

• You can't take an AoO if the target has cover from you.

(Again, this is one I have to repeat ad nauseam. Every bloody tripmonkey with his spiked chain seems to think he should be able to AoO everything in a 20' radius if it so much as twitches, even if the target's around a corner, through a web, and has three allies in between.)

• You can't prepare spells more than once per day.

Wizard: I sleep 8 hours and prepare spells.
Me: You can't.
Wizard: Why not?
Me: Because you can only prepare spells once every 24 hours.
Wizard: So when can I prepare spells next?
Me: 23 hours, 30 minutes.
Wizard: That sucks. Why do I have to wait so long?
Me: Because it's 8:30 in the morning and you woke up and started preparing spells half an hour ago.

I plan on doing all of these in the Test of Spite

tyckspoon
2009-12-25, 11:12 AM
Energy resistance is per round, not per attack.


Except for the actual Resist Energy spell, which is per attack and can make you near-immune to things that would otherwise be highly dangerous. Probably the source of not remembering that other sources of Energy Resistance are per-round, even, as Resist Energy is the most common way for PCs to encounter the ability.

Skaven
2009-12-25, 11:19 AM
If you can't do massive damage, how else are you supposed to beat giant enemy crab? :confused:

Deadmeat.GW
2009-12-25, 11:46 AM
Tome of Battle. The prerequisites are Dex 13 and one Desert Wind maneuver (easy to get by taking a single level of Swordsage, or taking Martial Maneuver). When you move at least 10 feet you gain a +1 Dodge bonus to AC against all attacks and +1 fire damage to attacks dealt with Desert Wind weapons. It also counts as dodge for all prerequisite purposes.

So, basically, if you qualify for Desert Wind Dodge there is absolutely no reason to take Dodge. Unless you really, really want an extra +1 AC against a single opponent per round.

Then there's Midnight Dodge, from Magic of Incarnum, which is like Dodge except the bonus to AC equals the amount of essentia you invested in the feat. It also counts as Dodge for all purposes. So, when you first take it it's just like Dodge - but it scales with level, up to +4 AC if you have enough essentia (trivially easy). And it's even easier to qualify for then Desert Wind Dodge (Dex and Con 13.)

Absolutely no reason to take Dodge.

Or you take Dextrous Dodge which adds 2 to your effective dexterity for purposes of combat and counts as the Dodge feat for pre-reqs.

My players absolutely love that feat.
Archer and Weapon finesse fighters...

Greymane
2009-12-25, 11:51 AM
I plan on doing all of these in the Test of Spite

Then you, my friend, have far too much money with all the screwing of rules you're doing.

Guilliaume
2009-12-25, 11:53 AM
Over all the DMs I have had since 3.x/PF has been out, they have all treated Dodge as affecting all enemies.

If Halflings have speed 20, thus getting them the -6 penalty to jump checks, but they get a +4 racial, they are still at -2 net total to jump.

Similar to Listen checks which was mentioned before, Spot checks suffer from a +1 to the DC per every 10 feet, most flying predators get a +8 racial to spot, so if most eagles are flying at their usual height they won't be able to see their prey below.

This was mentioned on a post about a week ago, but it takes a DC 20 Lore check in 4th edition to know bears attack with their claws.

Kosjsjach
2009-12-25, 11:59 AM
Or you take Dextrous Dodge which adds 2 to your effective dexterity for purposes of combat and counts as the Dodge feat for pre-reqs.

My players absolutely love that feat.
Archer and Weapon finesse fighters...

For those wondering: I looked for Dexterous Dodge, and the only place I found it was the D&D Wiki (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dexterous_Dodge_(DnD_Feat)). So no, as far as I can tell, it's not from an official source.

Deth Muncher
2009-12-25, 12:03 PM
This was mentioned on a post about a week ago, but it takes a DC 20 Lore check in 4th edition to know bears attack with their claws.

I thought they attacked with their BEAR HANDS.

OH DEAR GOD NOT MORE BEAR PUNS.

ocdscale
2009-12-25, 12:21 PM
Originally Posted by UserClone
Now as far as Massive Damage, I was always under the impression that it was 50 or more points of damage in a single attack, which is to say something that requires an attack roll. So are we sure a fireball still counts?


Pretty sure, yes. Here's something from the Invisibility spell:

Originally Posted by Invisibility
The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe.
If it looks like an attack, and hurts like an attack for 50+ points, you'll need to make the save.

Not to derail, but doesn't this go the other way? Invisibility goes out of the way to say spells count as attacks, for the purpose of breaking Invisibility. but Massive Damage doesn't.

Sliver
2009-12-25, 12:37 PM
Not to derail, but doesn't this go the other way? Invisibility goes out of the way to say spells count as attacks, for the purpose of breaking Invisibility. but Massive Damage doesn't.

I believe only damage like SA needs an actual attack roll to apply, and that everything that does damage is counted as an attack that could cause death from massive damage..

The Glyphstone
2009-12-25, 12:47 PM
I think the problem is that Massive Damage, the rule, doesn't actually specify that.



Massive Damage
If you ever sustain a single attack deals 50 points of damage or more and it doesn’t kill you outright, you must make a DC 15 Fortitude save. If this saving throw fails, you die regardless of your current hit points. If you take 50 points of damage or more from multiple attacks, no one of which dealt 50 or more points of damage itself, the massive damage rule does not apply.


It doesn't define what an attack is at all, while Invisibility does.

Radiun
2009-12-25, 12:56 PM
"A whip deals nonlethal damage. It deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack."

But oh the look on the DM's face when he realize that "cruel beastmaster who mercilessly beat the animals with his whip" wasn't so much as scratching them even if it was +2, and he had taken Combat Reflexes for no reason.

elonin
2009-12-25, 01:07 PM
If a rogue satisfies the conditions of sneak attack otherwise they could apply precision damage while firing a balista. Fortification (even light) foils sneak attack.

Thinking of planar binding, i'm surprised that no dm has "summoned" a player into the service of some npc.

jseah
2009-12-25, 01:10 PM
Thinking of planar binding, i'm surprised that no dm has "summoned" a player into the service of some npc.
Can only summon extraplanar outsiders.

A rare creature type among PCs.

Akisa
2009-12-25, 01:30 PM
Can only summon extraplanar outsiders.

A rare creature type among PCs.

Nope they can actually summon a pc...


Extraplanar Subtype

A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.

So in other words someone from another plane can summon the pc

jseah
2009-12-25, 01:34 PM
Nope they can actually summon a pc...

So in other words someone from another plane can summon the pc
d20srd: Planar Binding, Lesser

Target: One elemental or outsider with 6 HD or less
<...>

Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell’s range.

Therefore, to be a legitimate creature that you can summon:
1. the target creature must be from another plane
2. the target creature must be an elemental or outsider (HD cap depends on the spell)

Ok, I'll give you that the another plane doesn't mean you need the extraplanar subtype.
Still, players generally aren't elementals or outsiders.

EDIT: one more reason monk 20 gets screwed. For being an outsider what's more. >.> <.< XD

Akisa
2009-12-25, 02:01 PM
but there are no lvl 20 monks :p

taltamir
2009-12-25, 02:03 PM
but no there are no lvl 20 monks :p

if there are, wizards can bind them with planer binding and make them your servants.
Of course, why would you bind a level 20 monk when you can bind a balor for equal effort?

Akisa
2009-12-25, 02:14 PM
I meant to say there are no level 20 monks around. Monks don't survive long enough and if they do they'll muticlass out for a real class ;)

Coidzor
2009-12-25, 02:24 PM
if there are, wizards can bind them with planer binding and make them your servants.
Of course, why would you bind a level 20 monk when you can bind a balor for equal effort?

Scientific curiosity? Setting up a breeding program to try to get a better monk class?

Akisa
2009-12-25, 02:26 PM
To settle a 10k gp bet to see if they exist or not...

taltamir
2009-12-25, 02:30 PM
To settle a 10k gp bet to see if they exist or not...

OWNED! hahaha... I am so doing that my next game...

lesser_minion
2009-12-25, 04:41 PM
Fortification (even light) foils sneak attack.

I think you need to be more pedantic - your wording implies that light fortification makes you immune to sneak attacks, which is untrue.

You can use your % chance from fortification against sneak attacks, sure, but light fortification doesn't make you immune to them.

The siege weapons thing is a little odd - as you correctly noted, some, but not all siege engines are considered weapons.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 04:52 PM
light fortification gives 25% chance of foiling each sneak attack made against you...

lesser_minion
2009-12-25, 04:57 PM
light fortification gives 25% chance of foiling each sneak attack made against you...

I know. I even pointed that out.

His wording implied that light fortification blocks all sneak attacks though.

I'd dispute that it belongs in this thread - it's basically "you have a percentage chance of being considered immune to sneak attacks each time it's relevant". The fact that it doesn't work against other precision-based damage is actually more obscure, IMHO.

quiet1mi
2009-12-25, 05:08 PM
So in other words someone from another plane can summon the pc

I smell a plot hook, and revenge for killing some poor schmoe that was planerbind, can anyone say Ranger favored enemy (Arcanist)

taltamir
2009-12-25, 05:08 PM
I know. I even pointed that out.

His wording implied that light fortification blocks all sneak attacks though.

I know you know :) you corrected him by saying that it only blocks a %, not all of it. I expanded on it specifying that the % is 25, specifically.


I smell a plot hook, and revenge for killing some poor schmoe that was planerbind, can anyone say Ranger favored enemy (Arcanist)

well... there is the issue that the PCs are native the prime material plane.
things get really crazy because a variety of classes make the PC turn into an outsider (native)... that really guarantees that they are summonable.

Do remember that spells like "summon monster" actually create a "fake" monster out of nothing... only interplaner binding spells (planer binding, and gate) actually transport a preexisting creature from another plane.

UserClone
2009-12-25, 05:12 PM
I think the problem is that Massive Damage, the rule, doesn't actually specify that.



It doesn't define what an attack is at all, while Invisibility does.

Exactly. It could be ruled either way, which is kind of a nuisance. Guess I've been working with only such DMs as let it count from something that both requires an attack roll and causes 50 or more points of damage.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 05:15 PM
Exactly. It could be ruled either way, which is kind of a nuisance. Guess I've been working with only such DMs as let it count from something that both requires an attack roll and causes 50 or more points of damage.

if fireball isn't an "attack" because it requires no attack roll, then it better not disrupt my invisibility!

the rules are very clear on what an attack is. The spell itself doesn't specify, but it does not NEED to. What an attack is, is explained elsewhere.

Nero24200
2009-12-25, 05:23 PM
Fireball can destory flammable objects. This means that theoritically, you can burn spell component pouches, wooden weapones like bows of spear shafts, or just random supplies like a bedroll. Not to mention the character's clothes (It'll be kinda funny when the full-plate melee characters are fine but the robed wizards and leather wearing rogues are walking out the dungeon nekkid).

Roderick_BR
2009-12-25, 05:24 PM
Full attacks with ranged weapons don't provoke attacks of opportunity. The provocation for a ranged attack is only specified under the "Standard Actions" section of the Combat chapter. The table in the "Full-Round Actions" section says full attacks don't provoke AoOs, and the text there doesn't contradict that or make any exceptions.
That's not an obscure rule, that's a mistake that was never errata'd, like specifiying that everyone is proficient with their unarmed attacks, or what exactly happens when your character die, because they assumed people would be smart enough to understant it.

lesser_minion
2009-12-25, 05:49 PM
Actually the summon monster spells bring a 'copy' of an existing monster to you. The copy loses certain abilities (summoned and conjured creatures can't summon or conjure further creatures) and gains a vulnerability to vanishing when in an antimagic field.

Interestingly, called creatures disappear in an antimagic field.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-25, 06:03 PM
That's not an obscure rule, that's a mistake that was never errata'd, like specifiying that everyone is proficient with their unarmed attacks, or what exactly happens when your character die, because they assumed people would be smart enough to understant it.
Oh, gee, I can make up all sorts of stuff under the category of "mistakes that were never errata'd":

Monks have 3/4 BAB instead of full
Rogues don't get Weapon Finesse for free
Darkness creates shadowy light
Regardless of how we look at things, these are rules. If you don't follow them, you're using house rules instead -- which is fine, but you've got to acknowledge doing so. Trying to create this new category where you're making up your own rules but refusing to admit it is just sophistry.

Anyway, I'm done on this point. Let's get this train back on the rails, now, people. Nothing to see here. Move along.

taltamir
2009-12-25, 06:35 PM
Fireball can destory flammable objects. This means that theoritically, you can burn spell component pouches, wooden weapones like bows of spear shafts, or just random supplies like a bedroll. Not to mention the character's clothes (It'll be kinda funny when the full-plate melee characters are fine but the robed wizards and leather wearing rogues are walking out the dungeon nekkid).

a full plate doesn't have that much AC... and fireball deals fire damage, which ignores the hardness.. a single fireball should destroy a full plate.

Nai_Calus
2009-12-25, 06:39 PM
I ran into the weight of money thing when I DMed 3.5. One of the players, a human Scout, had something like 5,500 GP from his WBL he hadn't spent. I gently pointed out that not only did that leave him unable to use any of his class features, it actually left him unable to move at all.

The first few 3.5 campaigns I was in, I don't think anyone even knew that you don't autofail/autosucceed skill checks on a 1/20. Except me. Everyone else used the SRD and didn't even own the PHB, though. :-P

...To be fair, to this day I have never read the entire combat chapter in one go. I think I've managed to read all of it in total from looking things up, but never in one go.

There's one thing I've seen I'm not sure is a houserule or not. I want to say it is because it seems wrong, but I've never been able to figure out for certain. Said campaigns also allowed a 5-foot step before a full attack. (Not that I minded, I was a Swashbuckler in one and it made my life somewhat tolerable. I also kept it when I DMed even though I was iffy on the legality because good lord, I had a Swashbuckler and a Druid in the same party, and the Swash needed SOME kind of bone.) I've never successfully figured out if it's legal or not, probably because the reason I've never read the entire combat chapter for 3.5 straight through is because the layout is god-awful and confusing. >_>;

Curmudgeon
2009-12-25, 06:51 PM
a full plate doesn't have that much AC... and fireball deals fire damage, which ignores the hardness.. a single fireball should destroy a full plate.
Some problems here:

Fireball can only deal fire damage to combustibles, and metal (unless you've made your armor of magnesium) is not.
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze.
Catching on Fire

Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character’s clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately.
...
Those unlucky enough to have their clothes or equipment catch fire must make DC 15 Reflex saves for each item. Flammable items that fail take the same amount of damage as the character. So there's not even a check to damage nonflammable attended items.

Next, fire doesn't ignore hardness; rather, its damage is reduced even before hardness is taken into account.

Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. So even if some metal armor is just sitting unattended on the ground, a Fireball is going to have a hard time doing noticeable damage to that armor.

Deth Muncher
2009-12-25, 06:57 PM
So even if some metal armor is just sitting unattended on the ground, a Fireball is going to have a hard time doing noticeable damage to that armor.

Unless, of course, it's that funky gold armor, in which case you're pretty well out of luck.

lesser_minion
2009-12-25, 07:03 PM
Monks have 3/4 BAB instead of full
Rogues don't get Weapon Finesse for free


Except that he didn't make up his obvious mistake that wasn't errata'd.

An obvious mistake is, well, obvious. These two aren't. Monks don't actually move closer to the fluff when given full base attack bonus, and rogues certainly don't move closer to the fluff when given weapon finesse.

It is rather obvious that all ranged attacks should provoke attacks of opportunity. It is rather obvious that 7th-level vigilantes do not get 20 3rd level spells per day. Ignoring obvious mistakes and houseruling are two different things.

tyckspoon
2009-12-25, 07:22 PM
There's one thing I've seen I'm not sure is a houserule or not. I want to say it is because it seems wrong, but I've never been able to figure out for certain. Said campaigns also allowed a 5-foot step before a full attack. (Not that I minded, I was a Swashbuckler in one and it made my life somewhat tolerable. I also kept it when I DMed even though I was iffy on the legality because good lord, I had a Swashbuckler and a Druid in the same party, and the Swash needed SOME kind of bone.) I've never successfully figured out if it's legal or not, probably because the reason I've never read the entire combat chapter for 3.5 straight through is because the layout is god-awful and confusing. >_>;

That's legal. You can take your five-foot step whenever the heck you like in your turn as long as it's the only movement you make; you can take it in between attacks in your Full Attack routine if you want.

Overshee
2009-12-25, 07:24 PM
This may not be the right thread to post this in but I need rule advice and I figured rather than start and entire new post you guys might just know somewhere to send me.

Anyways, I have been appointed rules lawyer by my group (the DM wants to tell the story and since I have the best memory and know the most about DnD and RPGs in general). What could you recommend to help me do this besides reading books and SRD over and over?

Crib sheets, websites, ways to look up rules would all be awesome, as well as commonly forgotten rules (that are actually important, unlike some of the stuff in this thread :-P).

Thanks so much!

Nai_Calus
2009-12-25, 07:29 PM
Ahh, OK. I guess I was just wary of it because of the general iffiness of the rules used and the fact that it hewed dangerously close to being something nice for melee classes.

elonin
2009-12-25, 07:38 PM
Guess that's what I get for talking about stuff that I don't really know about. Thought the extraplanar binding works on any creature on a different plane than you are. In which case some balor could summon a pc to it's home plane (regardless if you were on your home plane). Like I said I understand that idea was incorrect now.

I'm not familiar with siege weapons and thought that they all require to hit rolls and that was the basis for that comment.

lesser_minion
2009-12-25, 07:44 PM
Guess that's what I get for talking about stuff that I don't really know about. Thought the extraplanar binding works on any creature on a different plane than you are. In which case some balor could summon a pc to it's home plane (regardless if you were on your home plane). Like I said I understand that idea was incorrect now.

I'm not familiar with siege weapons and thought that they all require to hit rolls and that was the basis for that comment.

Most target a square rather than a creature, so can't actually crit or sneak attack.

Flickerdart
2009-12-25, 08:22 PM
Most target a square rather than a creature, so can't actually crit or sneak attack.
Some would argue that the planet has a discernible anatomy...

Riffington
2009-12-25, 08:34 PM
Some problems here:

Fireball can only deal fire damage to combustibles, and metal (unless you've made your armor of magnesium) is not. So there's not even a check to damage nonflammable attended items.

If you're going by RAW, that's not what that passage says. It says that your armor (an object) takes damage but does not catch fire unless it is combustible and does not melt unless it is melty. It can become destroyed or unusable without combusting or melting.

Arbitrarious
2009-12-25, 08:43 PM
If you're going by RAW, that's not what that passage says. It says that your armor (an object) takes damage but does not catch fire unless it is combustible and does not melt unless it is melty. It can become destroyed or unusable without combusting or melting.

I thought attended items didn't take damage unless you roll a 1 on the save or they are targeted specifically. I am fairly certain fireballs don't strip people naked.

Irreverent Fool
2009-12-25, 08:59 PM
I thought attended items didn't take damage unless you roll a 1 on the save or they are targeted specifically. I am fairly certain fireballs don't strip people naked.

This.


Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks.

I hadn't realized that energy resistance applies on a per-round basis until this thread. My group is going to be a little miffed about the last combat they were in when I tell them.

obnoxious
sig

Flickerdart
2009-12-25, 09:00 PM
I thought attended items didn't take damage unless you roll a 1 on the save or they are targeted specifically. I am fairly certain fireballs don't strip people naked.
Maybe Evocation would get less of a bad rap if they actually did.

UserClone
2009-12-25, 09:19 PM
if fireball isn't an "attack" because it requires no attack roll, then it better not disrupt my invisibility!

the rules are very clear on what an attack is. The spell itself doesn't specify, but it does not NEED to. What an attack is, is explained elsewhere.

I'm not saying it isn't an attack, more that the rules don't spell out what an attack is, except specifically for the purposes of ruining an invisibility spell, which is noted in the spell description that this definition is specific to the spell. Therefore, logically, there is still no way to determine what is or isn't an attack for purposes of Massive Damage (okay, other than that it must do 50 points of damage).

Foeofthelance
2009-12-25, 11:17 PM
I'm not even sure if there's a rule for this: if you're carrying your bedroll, tent, winter blanket, fishing gear, bow, swords, etc, how the heck are you supposed to fight? Everything just magically disappears during the fight, then comes back at night? I suppose you could say you drop it, but I've never heard of any player specifically saying, "I take the time to lovingly unbuckle all of my gear from my back as the army of orcs advances on our party." Since there's so much awkward gear an adventurer carries (the tent always baffles me), it would be hard to drop it easily in an emergency.

Try going out with a Boy Scout troop in full gear. Hike for several miles, then call a break. You would be amazed how quickly packs being held in place by multiple buckles and straps can drop to the dirt with little care for the contents with in. Its probably the one reason never to bring a glass jar of preserves or anything of the sort out on a trail.

Stompy
2009-12-26, 01:22 AM
Sleight of Hand skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/SleightOfHand.htm)

Most people only think that this is the "pickpocketing someone's money" skill. It can also be used to hide weaponry (regardless of ranks or not) and performing.

Also note that:

-Spot checks don't stop Sleight of Hand theft, only notice it (and make subsequent small item theft checks harder.)
-The "small item" theft is never defined in this skill volume-wise (unless this is another obscure rule), meaning that this skill could be used for rediculous purposes. What is small to a hill giant?

taltamir
2009-12-26, 02:31 AM
Some problems here:

Fireball can only deal fire damage to combustibles, and metal (unless you've made your armor of magnesium) is not. So there's not even a check to damage nonflammable attended items.

Next, fire doesn't ignore hardness; rather, its damage is reduced even before hardness is taken into account.
So even if some metal armor is just sitting unattended on the ground, a Fireball is going to have a hard time doing noticeable damage to that armor.

burning is the process of oxidation. Iron oxidizes to form rust. It just isn't EASY to make that happen. That being said, realistically a little fire will just heat up an iron / steel armor without damaging it unless it is VERY hot. at which point it will melt it most likely rather then cause oxidation.
However, all those armors include padding and leather straps, those could be damaged, causing the individual parts to fall off. (except on chain)

Magnesium burns spectacularly, it also takes extreme heat to begin the burning process. A match and many other sources of fire simply don't burn hot enough to light magnesium.
And if it only deals damage to flammables, how does it deal damage to humans? humans are over 70% water and not very flammable... you typically need dry wood or some other fuel to sustain the burning of a human body.
Although you could use wick action with the humans own fat (recently discovered cause for "spontaneous combustion"; it isn't spontanous, it is just a very small flame that burns for many hours slowly at temperatures hot enough to cremate the body... leaving nothing but a pile of ashes and the unburned legs which lack the fat content to burn.)

jmbrown
2009-12-26, 02:51 AM
Sleight of Hand skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/SleightOfHand.htm)

Most people only think that this is the "pickpocketing someone's money" skill. It can also be used to hide weaponry (regardless of ranks or not) and performing.

Also note that:

-Spot checks don't stop Sleight of Hand theft, only notice it (and make subsequent small item theft checks harder.)
-The "small item" theft is never defined in this skill volume-wise (unless this is another obscure rule), meaning that this skill could be used for rediculous purposes. What is small to a hill giant?

They use light weapons as an example for a small object and light weapons are, by RAW, two size categories smaller than the person wielding them. A hill giant therefor could palm a "size small" object like a longsword or wine casket.

The person doing the actual search would obviously get a bonus to spot a "small" object on a hill giant although another hill giant performing the same search wouldn't.

Signmaker
2009-12-26, 11:13 AM
Sleight of Hand skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/SleightOfHand.htm)

Most people only think that this is the "pickpocketing someone's money" skill. It can also be used to hide weaponry (regardless of ranks or not) and performing.

Also note that:

-Spot checks don't stop Sleight of Hand theft, only notice it (and make subsequent small item theft checks harder.)
-The "small item" theft is never defined in this skill volume-wise (unless this is another obscure rule), meaning that this skill could be used for rediculous purposes. What is small to a hill giant?

Additionally, there was never any explicit rules between things like a PC SoH'ing another PC, and what could be reasonably taken without notice.

Ravingdork
2009-12-26, 11:45 AM
I hadn't realized that energy resistance applies on a per-round basis until this thread. My group is going to be a little miffed about the last combat they were in when I tell them.

obnoxious
sig

What? I thought it applied against every attack. The whole, only works once per round was a 3.0 thing, was it not?

John Campbell
2009-12-26, 01:20 PM
Next, fire doesn't ignore hardness; rather, its damage is reduced even before hardness is taken into account.


Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness.

Wait, wait... that means you can't burn wood. Normal fire does 1d6 fire damage (max 6/2 == 3); wood has a hardness of 5.

lesser_minion
2009-12-26, 01:29 PM
Wait, wait... that means you can't burn wood. Normal fire does 1d6 fire damage (max 6/2 == 3); wood has a hardness of 5.

It used to be 2d6.

However, wood is an exceptional case. It doesn't burn that readily, especially not larger pieces. A fireball certainly wouldn't set fire to a piece of wood.

Creatures such as treants should be resistant to fire, not vulnerable.


Also, wood doesn't even take much damage from being consumed by a fire. A wooden structure will often remain standing for quite a while - and will probably still be standing well after having been gutted by the fire, even though it wouldn't be particularly safe.

John Campbell
2009-12-26, 01:50 PM
I've done quite a lot of camping in my time; I've even successfully started a fire with just flint and steel. I'm well aware of how difficult it is to ignite wood. However, there's a large gap between "difficult to ignite" and "impossible to burn".

And, in fact, fireballs will burn wood - even at 5th level, you'd have to roll pretty badly to get less than 12 points, which is sufficient to exceed its hardness. But if you take a log and toss it on your campfire (don't ask what the campfire is fueled by), it'll never burn. Ever.

There's also a difference between a building having lots of hit points and being immune to damage.

lesser_minion
2009-12-26, 02:01 PM
I've done quite a lot of camping in my time; I've even successfully started a fire with just flint and steel. I'm well aware of how difficult it is to ignite wood. However, there's a large gap between "difficult to ignite" and "impossible to burn".

And, in fact, fireballs will burn wood - even at 5th level, you'd have to roll pretty badly to get less than 12 points, which is sufficient to exceed its hardness. But if you take a log and toss it on your campfire (don't ask what the campfire is fueled by), it'll never burn. Ever.

There's also a difference between a building having lots of hit points and being immune to damage.

As I said, nonmagical fire used to be 2d6 points per round.

In general, fireball never starts fires. The rules for fire in the DMG repeatedly note that it doesn't happen.

Knaight
2009-12-26, 02:08 PM
The log will burn just fine, it just needs a bit of help. Either a really big fire, or all sorts of fun chemicals loaded up with carbon and hydrogen. The really fun ones even have a bit of oxygen on top of that. Of course, if the log is about the size of the fire, good luck.

Radiun
2009-12-26, 02:31 PM
For wood burning

If I remember Transmute Rock to Lava correctly
If it is cast on the ceiling, raining lava deals 2d6 fire damage
If a creature is in the area of the spell and can't escape, they suffer 20d6 fire damage / round
However being immersed in lava is 10d10 fire damage

Though I admit, rules about immersion in fire might not exist and are a tad extreme for a simple campfire

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-26, 02:42 PM
Immersion in lava deals 20d6 damage per round. Exposure to lava deals 2d6 damage per round.

Those figures are identical to what normal lava should be doing in D&D. :smallwink:

taltamir
2009-12-26, 03:21 PM
both figures are survivable btw, without magic...

Signmaker
2009-12-26, 03:23 PM
Immersion in lava deals 20d6 damage per round. Exposure to lava deals 2d6 damage per round.

Those figures are identical to what normal lava should be doing in D&D. :smallwink:



both figures are survivable btw, without magic...

Surviving the second shows the silliness of DnD environmental damage.
Surviving the first shows how awesome you are.

Tetsubo 57
2009-12-26, 03:23 PM
One of my old school D&D friends always obeyed encumbrance rules. He told me how he and his party always just completely ignored any copper pieces they came across. Even after they got bags of holding and the like. They just didn't consider them worth the effort.

Back in the 1E era my group came up with an 'offering' ritual. We would just offer up our copper pieces to our gods rather than lug them around. :)

Tetsubo 57
2009-12-26, 03:26 PM
Unless their DM hates Tome of Battle with a completely unreasonable and inflexible passion. Melee can't have nice things. :smallfrown::smallannoyed::smallfrown:

Well, I don't like the ToB and don't use it. But I also make Dodge a flat +1 AC bonus.

Tetsubo 57
2009-12-26, 03:29 PM
Got a quote? SRD says that you can prepare slots you left open that morning at any time of the day, but it takes at least 15 mins to 1 hour.

And that the only limitation for that is:

Nothing about preparing only once per 24 hours.

The time of day limitation is for Divine spells only.

But since you left those slots open you didn't actually prepare spells into them. So it would be quite alright to fill those slots at a later time. But only once within any 24 hour period.

taltamir
2009-12-26, 03:40 PM
Well, I don't like the ToB and don't use it. But I also make Dodge a flat +1 AC bonus.

I don't think I have seen a person who didn't make that adjustment :)

Tetsubo 57
2009-12-26, 03:52 PM
I don't think I have seen a person who didn't make that adjustment :)

Pathfinder even made it official.

jmbrown
2009-12-26, 04:03 PM
Don't know if it's been mentioned before, but few people know that clerics pick a specific time of the day to pray and if you miss it you're stuck until the next day.

In fact, add the entirety of spell casting and preparation rules to this topic.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-26, 04:05 PM
Don't know if it's been mentioned before, but few people know that clerics pick a specific time of the day to pray and if you miss it you're stuck until the next day.

Actually, if you miss it, you can stop and pray at the earliest opportunity and be perfectly fine.

jseah
2009-12-26, 04:12 PM
But since you left those slots open you didn't actually prepare spells into them. So it would be quite alright to fill those slots at a later time. But only once within any 24 hour period.
Actually, I haven't seen that once in a 24 hour period. Got a quote?

jmbrown
2009-12-26, 04:13 PM
Actually, if you miss it, you can stop and pray at the earliest opportunity and be perfectly fine.

First opportunity can be easily twisted. Being chased into a dungeon by a monster while everyone is preparing is your first opportunity. You try to prepare in the quiet of the dungeon and you're attacked by a random encounter. Your first opportunity is lost and you can't prepare until the next day.

Also, what does 3.5 consider as daily? 8 hours or 24 hours because the latter instantly stomps out the concept of 15-minute-work-day.

taltamir
2009-12-26, 04:15 PM
Actually, I haven't seen that once in a 24 hour period. Got a quote?

I think he mean, you are limited to your max slots per 24 hours...

that is, if I have 3 level 4 slots. I can leave 1 empty and fill it in later. But once I cast the spell I cannot "fill it" again...

WOTC used really really stupid naming scheme to describe a simple and clear process.

jseah
2009-12-26, 04:17 PM
I think he mean, you are limited to your max slots per 24 hours...

that is, if I have 3 level 4 slots. I can leave 1 empty and fill it in later. But once I cast the spell I cannot "fill it" again...

WOTC used really really stop naming scheme to describe a simple and clear process.
That is what I meant by the rule I haven't seen. The closest to that I know is the recent cast rule, which is 8 hours, not 24.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-26, 04:23 PM
First opportunity can be easily twisted. Being chased into a dungeon by a monster while everyone is preparing is your first opportunity. You try to prepare in the quiet of the dungeon and you're attacked by a random encounter. Your first opportunity is lost and you can't prepare until the next day.

Also, what does 3.5 consider as daily? 8 hours or 24 hours because the latter instantly stomps out the concept of 15-minute-work-day.

A day is 24 hours.

Also, screwing over a cleric and not giving her a single moment to prepare spells is not an example of good DMing. Quite the opposite.

Amphetryon
2009-12-26, 04:24 PM
Also, what does 3.5 consider as daily? 8 hours or 24 hours because the latter instantly stomps out the concept of 15-minute-work-day.Um, no? If the DM allows Rope Trick shenanigans to work, the 15 minute work day has no issues.

taltamir
2009-12-26, 04:25 PM
That is what I meant by the rule I haven't seen. The closest to that I know is the recent cast rule, which is 8 hours, not 24.

Rest
To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions
If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit.

Preparation Environment
To prepare any spell, a wizard must have enough peace, quiet, and comfort to allow for proper concentration. The wizard’s surroundings need not be luxurious, but they must be free from overt distractions. Exposure to inclement weather prevents the necessary concentration, as does any injury or failed saving throw the character might experience while studying. Wizards also must have access to their spellbooks to study from and sufficient light to read them by. There is one major exception: A wizard can prepare a read magic spell even without a spellbook.

Spell Preparation Time
After resting, a wizard must study her spellbook to prepare any spells that day. If she wants to prepare all her spells, the process takes 1 hour. Preparing some smaller portion of her daily capacity takes a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve the proper mental state.

Spell Selection and Preparation
Until she prepares spells from her spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that she already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used. During the study period, she chooses which spells to prepare. If a wizard already has spells prepared (from the previous day) that she has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them to make room for new spells.

When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells.

Spell Slots
The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

Prepared Spell Retention
Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a nearly cast spell until she uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until she abandons it. Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character’s mind.

Death and Prepared Spell Retention
If a spellcaster dies, all prepared spells stored in his or her mind are wiped away. Potent magic (such as raise dead, resurrection, or true resurrection) can recover the lost energy when it recovers the character.

Ok, I am more than a bit baffled. I Was sure the rules allowed you to only prepare once every 24 hours...
so you could NOT just wake up at 8, prepare spells till 9, cast all your spells in a minute (9:01), rest for another 8 hours (5:01pm) prepare new spells for the day for another hour (6:01pm) cast all your spells in a minute (6:02pm), rest for another 8 hours (2:02am) repeat...

but there seem to be no actual rule against it... 15 minute work day FTW...
this also presents a unique problem for clerics...

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-26, 04:27 PM
She can only fill her spell slots once per day each. The hint is in the 'daily'.

taltamir
2009-12-26, 04:30 PM
She can only fill her spell slots once per day each. The hint is in the 'daily'.

where does it say that though, where exactly in the rules themselves. I just searched and couldn't find it.

jmbrown
2009-12-26, 04:34 PM
A day is 24 hours.

Also, screwing over a cleric and not giving her a single moment to prepare spells is not an example of good DMing. Quite the opposite.

It's not screwing anyone over. Random encounter charts are recommended and time becomes a factor in almost any situation. The party shouldn't be able to stop in the middle of a time critical hostile situation to check their grocery list.

Inescapable events have to stop a cleric from memorizing spells. He can't choose to not pray or else he has to wait until the next day. Being attacked by a monster is an inescapable event. Having to rush out to save the burning village isn't because the cleric still has the opportunity to pray, he just might arrive too late.


Um, no? If the DM allows Rope Trick shenanigans to work, the 15 minute work day has no issues.

Memorizing spells is still a 24 hour process. If you cast a spell in the last 8 hours then it counts against the next day's daily limit. From the moment wizards memorize their spells after rest they essentially start a timer.

Even with rope trick you'd better find a safe spot to rest because in 24 hours the dungeon will probably repopulate or guard rotations become twice as strong.


where does it say that though, where exactly in the rules themselves. I just searched and couldn't find it.

It says right in the description that they're limited per day. The "day" timer starts the moment you memorize your spells. If you cast a spell within 8 hours of the next day then it counts against the day's limit.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-26, 04:36 PM
It's not screwing anyone over. Random encounter charts are recommended and time becomes a factor in almost any situation. The party shouldn't be able to stop in the middle of a time critical hostile situation to check their grocery list.

Inescapable events have to stop a cleric from memorizing spells. He can't choose to not pray or else he has to wait until the next day. Being attacked by a monster is an inescapable event. Having to rush out to save the burning village isn't because the cleric still has the opportunity to pray, he just might arrive too late.

Denying a character most of his class abilities arbitrarily is not fun.

It doesn't matter if it's "realistic", you shouldn't make a habit of it.

Otherwise he might as well be a Fighter with crappy BaB and no bonus feats.

jseah
2009-12-26, 04:37 PM
Well, when Saph mentioned it, I couldn't find it either and posted a question here. No one answered. XD

Still, I've always treated 8 hours rest like an extended rest in 4E. All extended durations get the remainder of the day chopped off, magic items reset, all spells reset (never heard of the time of day preparation for clerics), PP fills up and essentia... blah blah blah.

zzz, then again, the indication of 1 spell per slot per 24 hours is in the name, Spells per Day.
But then, why have the recent cast rule if it's 1 slot per 24 hours?!
Especially when said recent cast rule doesn't apparently apply to items or other non-casting daily limits!?

jmbrown
2009-12-26, 04:37 PM
Denying a character most of his class abilities arbitrarily is not fun.

It doesn't matter if it's "realistic", you shouldn't make a habit of it.

Otherwise he might as well be a Fighter with crappy BaB and no bonus feats.

Don't rest in a hostile location. Pure and simple. If you think you can get away by sleeping in the lion's den before killing the lion then it's your own damn fault. There's nothing arbitrary about it.

taltamir
2009-12-26, 04:40 PM
It's not screwing anyone over. Random encounter charts are recommended and time becomes a factor in almost any situation. The party shouldn't be able to stop in the middle of a time critical hostile situation to check their grocery list.

Inescapable events have to stop a cleric from memorizing spells. He can't choose to not pray or else he has to wait until the next day. Being attacked by a monster is an inescapable event. Having to rush out to save the burning village isn't because the cleric still has the opportunity to pray, he just might arrive too late.

BS. all of it is just on load of bull.


Memorizing spells is still a 24 hour process. *snip* From the moment wizards memorize their spells after rest they essentially start a timer.

And until you show us where in the rules it says that, then it is your house rule. not RAW


If you cast a spell in the last 8 hours then it counts against the next day's daily limit.
This ONLY matters if your rest is interrupted.
You wake up at 8 am, you prepare spells (1 hour), it is 9 am... you go on a 15 minute slaying spree using up ALL your spells. Those slots count if you prepare again within the next 8 hours. However, you do not prepare within the next 8 hours. You rest for 8 hours (you need to anyways), and then prepare during the 9th hour.

If your rest is somehow interrupted after 7 hours, you need to rest 2 more, and any spell you cast during that interruption counts against you...
Good thing that rope trick and later teleport and other tricks allow you to completely ignore such possibilities.


Even with rope trick you'd better find a safe spot to rest because in 24 hours the dungeon will probably repopulate or guard rotations become twice as strong.
Excellent, more XP to be had. just repeat ad nasium... do you actually have infinite guards? its not like they can find them... rope trick, teleport, plain on running away and coming back... the PCs can and will disengage and come back later.
If you don't like rope trick, be upfront about it and ban it (and teleport) instead of being a jerk and stealth banning it with dirty tricks and penalizing PCs for using it arbitrarily.


Don't rest in a hostile location. Pure and simple. If you think you can get away by sleeping in the lion's den before killing the lion then it's your own damn fault. There's nothing arbitrary about it.

you can if you have a spell that explicitly tears a hole in reality into another dimension where the lion cannot even perceive your existence... allowing you to rest there in perfect impunity, explicitly stated in the spell description.

not arbitrary? ha, this is as arbitrary as it gets. You just decide you don't like wizards, clerics, and rope trick... and decide to stealth nerf them by screwing them over and denying them their class abilities...

jseah
2009-12-26, 04:44 PM
Oh, and further more, the psionic PP/day wording is even more screwy.


Regaining Power Points
Once the character has rested in a suitable environment, it takes only an act of concentration spanning 1 full round to regain all power points of the psionic character’s daily limit.
Argh. Obviously shows that the daily limit isn't a daily limit at all. At least for psions.

-> Resting can be done before 24 hours is up
-> No other condition is stated to be required in order to do that "1 full round" concentration
-> PP regained by doing this is even stated to fill up to his daily limit (specific trumps general, even more so when general is merely a name "daily limit" and not a hard 24 hour rule)

lesser_minion
2009-12-26, 04:49 PM
Wizards can only refresh their spells as part of their "first preparation of the day"

Then the game clearly explains that this is because "the mind must be fresh from rest".

I'm afraid we will never know the truth until Saph comes back to the thread.

taltamir
2009-12-26, 04:51 PM
here is one people seem to forget...
"preparing spells takes 1 hour".

an 8 hour rest does not regain your spells, its 8 hours rest + 1 hour of preparation. 9 hours total.

I blame this on CRPG implementations that always require a mere 8 hour rest to regain everything (and get a full heal while at it).

taltamir
2009-12-26, 04:53 PM
Wizards can only refresh their spells as part of their "first preparation of the day"

Then the game clearly explains that this is because "the mind must be fresh from rest".

no it doesn't, I just listed what it says and nowhere there does it state what you are claiming. I personally said that you can only do it once per 24 hours, but a quick look in the rules showed me to be wrong and I conceded.
Don't just repeatedly state your position. The SRD links and quotes so far show that we were wrong and you can rest multiple times in one 24 hour period. If you insist otherwise then quote the actual rule that forbids it.

jmbrown
2009-12-26, 05:00 PM
BS. all of it is just on load of bull.

RAW is BS? Whatever. You can't expect events to go favorably for the PCs all the time. Adventuring is as much good planning as it is execution. If you want to rest in peace then choose a peaceful area, not 5' outside a dungeon.


And until you show us where in the rules it says that, then it is your house rule. not RAW


This ONLY matters if your rest is interrupted.
You wake up at 8 am, you prepare spells (1 hour), it is 9 am... you go on a 15 minute slaying spree using up ALL your spells. Those slots count if you prepare again within the next 8 hours. However, you do not prepare within the next 8 hours. You rest for 8 hours (you need to anyways), and then prepare during the 9th hour.

If your rest is somehow interrupted after 7 hours, you need to rest 2 more, and any spell you cast during that interruption counts against you...
Good thing that rope trick and later teleport and other tricks allow you to completely ignore such possibilities.

PG 178 of the PHB. Spells have a daily limit IE 24 hours. The act of casting your spell goes against your daily limit. To memorize spells you have to have 8 hours of rest but you're still restricted by your daily casting limit.


Excellent, more XP to be had. just repeat ad nasium... do you actually have infinite guards? its not like they can find them... rope trick, teleport, plain on running away and coming back... the PCs can and will disengage and come back later.
If you don't like rope trick, be upfront about it and ban it (and teleport) instead of being a jerk and stealth banning it with dirty tricks and penalizing PCs for using it arbitrarily.

Rope trick has more limitations than people give it. You need at least 8 hours of rest before you can begin memorizing spells. Memorizing your full repertoire is a 1 hour process. A level 9 wizard would be required to do anything remotely useful for rope trick and at that point you're better off using one of the hut/mansion spells or just leaving the area.


you can if you have a spell that explicitly tears a hole in reality into another dimension where the lion cannot even perceive your existence... allowing you to rest there in perfect impunity, explicitly stated in the spell description.

not arbitrary? ha, this is as arbitrary as it gets. You just decide you don't like wizards, clerics, and rope trick... and decide to stealth nerf them by screwing them over and denying them their class abilities...

If you're a DM that allows the Baldur's Gate "Free rest in a hostile area" then you're a DM I wouldn't want to play with.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-26, 05:10 PM
Rope trick has more limitations than people give it. You need at least 8 hours of rest before you can begin memorizing spells. Memorizing your full repertoire is a 1 hour process. A level 9 wizard would be required to do anything remotely useful for rope trick and at that point you're better off using one of the hut/mansion spells or just leaving the area.
Yes, level 9. Once you hit level 9, a Wizard can decide to go to sleep whenever, wherever he likes, and in almost all cases it's completely unreasonable that anyone would be able to find or stop him unless they watched him do it. And using one of the hut/mansion spells is not better at all - those can be seen, and those cost higher level spell slots.

jseah
2009-12-26, 05:13 PM
Rod of lesser extend is only 3k. And frequently the first expensive magic item I pick up even before haversack (unless it's a high level game). Level 5 wizard.

hamishspence
2009-12-26, 05:15 PM
The "within the last 8 hours" bit may apply to interrupted resting.

As in- you rest 6 hours, are attacked in the night and cast one spell, rest another 3 hours (you have to rest one extra hour because of the interruption)

and when you prepare spells, you have one less spell, even though your have fulfilled the rest requirement- because you spent a spell slot recently.

It does not, however, explicitly state you must start preparing them immediately after the rest. In theory, you could rest 8 hours, do stuff for the next few hours, then take your preparation time, and because enough time has lapsed, you would have all your spells.

Unless you spent more spells between the end of rest time and the beginning of preparation time.

lsfreak
2009-12-26, 05:18 PM
And using one of the hut/mansion spells is not better at all - those can be seen, and those cost higher level spell slots.

And there's nothing stopping someone from just bashing their way into a secure shelter. Arcane locked doors aren't much of a threat to... pretty much anything, by the time you can cast it, and does nothing against anything incorporeal, ethereal, or able to teleport. Magnificent mansion duplicates rope trick's inaccessibility pretty well, but are you really going to spend a 7th level spell slot on that when you could spend a 2nd (or better, a wand)?

jmbrown
2009-12-26, 05:24 PM
It does not, however, explicitly state you must start preparing them immediately after the rest. In theory, you could rest 8 hours, do stuff for the next few hours, then take your preparation time, and because enough time has lapsed, you would have all your spells..

It does, actually. Page 177 of the PHB. A wizard requires at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest prior to preparing her spells. That's pretty much an exact quote.

If you're interrupted after 8 hours of rest but prior to memorizing your spells, you have to rest an additional 1 hour before cracking open your spellbook.

This is one of the differences between the SRD and PHB. If you want clear rules with examples you have to use the PHB in this case. According to the PHB, this is how spells work:

1. The wizard is limited to spells he can memorize per day.
2. The wizard must rest at least 8 hours prior to memorizing spells. He can then begin memorizing.
3. Each memorized spell counts against his daily limit. If you memorize 1 casting of magic missile then you used up a daily limit. The wizard can leave unused slots open during preparation to fill later but you can't "abandon" a spell to re-prepare a future spell without resting first and it still counts against your daily limit.

The PHB literally describes arcane spell casting as a wizard literally casting the spell as he memorizes it and then stopping it before the effects go off. The actual act of casting the spell is simply the wizard saying the words of power that activate the effect. That's why the act of memorizing spells specifically count towards your daily limit; you're literally casting them at the same time you memorize them.

jseah
2009-12-26, 05:33 PM
1. The wizard is limited to spells he can memorize per day.
Ok, I just read PHB pg 177 & 178 concerning preparing spells. It's the same as the SRD but with examples.

None of the examples say anything about what daily limit means.
In fact, from the section about preparing slots later:

She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Emphasis mine.

So slots that got casted just now is mentioned specifically here.

Furthermore, it states the requirement to prepare those slots with new spells requires rest. No one argues that.
The point is that no other requirement is stated. There is no 24 hour limit.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-26, 05:38 PM
The book calls them daily spells.

They don't have to explicitly say was 'daily' means any more than they have to say what the word 'illumination' means! It's assumed that you know English!

hamishspence
2009-12-26, 05:39 PM
the phrase "immediately prior" does rule out doing anything between the last 1 hour of rest, and preparing, though.

lesser_minion
2009-12-26, 05:41 PM
no it doesn't, I just listed what it says and nowhere there does it state what you are claiming. I personally said that you can only do it once per 24 hours, but a quick look in the rules showed me to be wrong and I conceded.
Don't just repeatedly state your position. The SRD links and quotes so far show that we were wrong and you can rest multiple times in one 24 hour period. If you insist otherwise then quote the actual rule that forbids it.

What do you think my position actually is?

I was the first person to ask for a quote when the whole "wizards can only prepare spells once every 24 hours is". I am certainly not just "repeatedly stating my position".

My point was that there is a contradiction - first it has to be the first preparation of the day, then it has to be the first preparation since resting.

And if you want to know what I was quoting, try reading the actual rules (the ones which have been exactly the same for the last nine years). Have a link:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#wizardSpellSelectionandPreparatio n

You need the 4th and 5th sentence of the second paragraph of the section that link takes you to ("Spell Selection and Preparation"). Is that precise enough?

The rules haven't changed in the last nine years, so if you can't find them then that is your problem, not mine, and not anyone else's.

I didn't quote it word for word.

Are you happy now? Is that not enough?

jseah
2009-12-26, 05:46 PM
The book calls them daily spells.

They don't have to explicitly say was 'daily' means any more than they have to say what the word 'illumination' means! It's assumed that you know English!
Then do please reference my post #197.

There I state and explain how psions don't apparently obey their daily PP limit. Or at least are not restricted to X PP per 24 hours.

Can you explain that then?

Saph
2009-12-26, 05:49 PM
Well, when Saph mentioned it, I couldn't find it either and posted a question here. No one answered. XD

Oh, all right. :P

It's one of those things that's simple enough that WotC didn't think they needed to spell it out. If you look here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard) the top of the wizard's table lists "Spells per Day", Ie, spells per 24 hours. Not spells per 8-hour rest period. Simple enough.

However, this leads to the interesting question of exactly how you time it. Does it mean that each spell slot can only be used once in every 24-hour period? If it does, this is quite harsh on wizards and sorcerers. If they cast a few spells at 8pm at night, that would mean they can't regain those spell slots next morning, because less than 24 hours have passed since they used them. So they'll either have to rest from 12 noon to 8pm the next day to recover them, or wait to the day after, which is pretty irritating either way.

The alternative is to arbitrarily define a day in calender terms from midnight to midnight. So a wizard can fire off their daily allowance of spells at 10pm, rest, wake up at 8am, memorise spells, then start casting them again at 9am, after which they'll have to wait until the next morning to memorise them again. This leads to the weird result that adventuring wizards are better off fighting battles in the evening than the morning, since if they fight in the morning they'll have to wait longer to replenish their spells.

In practice I usually use the second approach, even though it doesn't make much sense, just because the bookkeeping's easier. You get X many spells between 12:00 am one day and 12:00 am the next. It favours the players slightly, but even then, you still get the ones who want their character to wake up at 8am, prepare spells for 15 minutes, fight for 15 minutes, then go back to sleep again . . . which means I have to hit them over the head and refer them back to the top of the post.

jseah
2009-12-26, 05:55 PM
Saph: Thanks for answering, although the question got responded to now so there wasn't a need for you to purposely do so. Of course, I don't mean that you shouldn't have, just that you didn't need to be obliged to answer.

As for the 24/hour period, that does make sense that Spells per Day refers to a 24 hour period or a calendar day (could be either, not stated).

Could you then explain how is it that psions are specifically stated to recover their entire daily allotment by resting then spending 1 full round concentration? (in post #197)

lesser_minion
2009-12-26, 05:58 PM
Saph: You linked to the page on your computer instead of the page on the internet. You should have used this one: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard

I know what you mean though.

The rules for preparing spells imply that you only need to wait eight hours after using a spell slot before you can refresh it though.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-26, 06:00 PM
Does it mean that each spell slot can only be used once in every 24-hour period? If it does, this is quite harsh on wizards and sorcerers. If they cast a few spells at 8pm at night, that would mean they can't regain those spell slots next morning, because less than 24 hours have passed since they used them. So they'll either have to rest from 12 noon to 8pm the next day to recover them, or wait to the day after, which is pretty irritating either way.
Also, this would conflict with the "you can't use spell slots you've used in the last 8 hours" rule, since while it would be true, it would be true for any within 24 hours. That I definitely do not think is the correct interpretation.

Really, I do not think there is any RAW preventing the 15-minute workday. I don't think there's any rule that was even intended, specifically, to prevent it (though doubtless Wizards did intend for the 15-minute workday to not be how things worked). You can houserule something, though, as you found, that gets awkward quickly - and more importantly, for the purposes of this discussion, that would be a houserule.

jseah
2009-12-26, 06:02 PM
Just realized this, there's no point in having an 8 hour recent cast limit if you have a 24 hour period interpretation.

Because a 24 hour period limitation is really just a 24 hour recent cast limit. Making the 8 hour limit completely moot.

So it does really look like it's from 12:00am to 12:00am. One wonders how DMs should handle changing time zones. XD *evil grin*

EDIT: ninja'ed

Saph
2009-12-26, 06:05 PM
Could you then explain how is it that psions are specifically stated to recover their entire daily allotment by resting then spending 1 full round concentration? (in post #197)

Well, the SRD states:


Regaining Power Points
Once the character has rested in a suitable environment, it takes only an act of concentration spanning 1 full round to regain all power points of the psionic character’s daily limit.

The most logical interpretation of this would be: by resting 8 hours then concentrating, you regain all your power points, up to your daily limit. If you've already used up your daily limit, you don't have anything to regain.

The alternative interpretation is to say that when WotC used the word "Daily" in their writeup of 3.5 psionics, they didn't actually mean "Daily", but were in fact deliberately trying to trick their readers.

The first seems more plausible to me, but it's your call. :P

jseah
2009-12-26, 06:11 PM
The most logical interpretation of this would be: by resting 8 hours then concentrating, you regain all your power points, up to your daily limit. If you've already used up your daily limit, you don't have anything to regain.
The text states ALL power points up to the daily limit. That's clear (to me) that the psion refills PP until the number stated on his table.

EDIT: this is because "daily limit" means the amount of PP you can manifest in one day. Er... what other number could daily limit refer to?

Saph
2009-12-26, 06:17 PM
The rules for preparing spells imply that you only need to wait eight hours after using a spell slot before you can refresh it though.


Just realized this, there's no point in having an 8 hour recent cast limit if you have a 24 hour period interpretation.

Because a 24 hour period limitation is really just a 24 hour recent cast limit. Making the 8 hour limit completely moot.

Not quite. The daily limit and the 8 hour limit are separate restrictions. You have to follow both.

• You can't use a spell slot more than once per day.
• You can't use a spell slot if you've used it in the last 8 hours.

The two don't contradict each other; they're two separate limitations that you need to follow. The recent casting limit is a problem if you get attacked during the night; the daily limit is a problem if you're trying to prepare spells multiple times per day.

- If you go to sleep at 10pm, get attacked by large intelligent cockroaches just before midnight, cast two 2nd-level spells, kill the cockroaches, and wake up at 6am, you won't be able to prepare those two 2nd-level spell slots, because of the 8 hour recent casting limit.

- If you wake up at 6am, prepare spells, go out and use up two 2nd-level spells out hunting and killing Giant Spotted Snorklewhackers, go back to bed at 7am, then rest through to 3pm and try to prepare spells, you won't be able to prepare those two 2nd-level spell slots, because of the daily spell limit.

In the first case, you've satisfied the 12am to 12am daily limit, but you're in violation of the 8 hour recent casting limit. In the second case, you've satisfied the 8 hour recent casting limit, but you're in violation of the daily limit. Get the idea?


EDIT: this is because "daily limit" means the amount of PP you can manifest in one day. Er... what other number could daily limit refer to?

Well, since "daily limit" means the amount of PP you can manifest in one day, you obviously can't use your daily limit more than daily, can you? :P

Really, this whole snarlup is just an example of what happens when you try to overanalyse rules. Spells per day means spells per day. PP per day means PP per day. It doesn't have to be difficult unless you make it that way.

jseah
2009-12-26, 06:35 PM
XD That's why I said that 24 hour period is moot, since it overlaps exactly with the 8 hour period (if 24 hours is true, 8 hours is true also). Therefore, daily limit refers to some time at which spells refresh.
In this case, 12:00 to 12:00 is your interpretation.

[catgirl shooting bonus round... start!]
So what happens if I teleport across the Date line? If such exists of course. =P
[/joking]
****************

About Daily Limit, yes, the name daily limit implies that you cannot use it more than once per day. (I say implies, because names are categories and could work rather differently from what they say they are)

However, it appears that the regaining PP rules state that you can regain PP up to your daily limit by following X procedure (that takes less than 1 day)

In direct contradiction to the "each PP only usable once per day" interpretation.

Zaydos
2009-12-26, 06:46 PM
What? I thought it applied against every attack. The whole, only works once per round was a 3.0 thing, was it not?

Yeah, I checked since I thought that was the case as well. I had never looked, because I remembered Dragon Magazine mentioning it in one of its 3.5previews but it is specifically per attack now. It uses a jann as the example in the back of the DMG under Resistance to Energy special ability. I was a little worried for my wizard (he uses Dragonskin for AC and Energy Resistance).

Saph
2009-12-26, 06:47 PM
XD That's why I said that 24 hour period is moot, since it overlaps exactly with the 8 hour period (if 24 hours is true, 8 hours is true also). Therefore, daily limit refers to some time at which spells refresh.
In this case, 12:00 to 12:00 is your interpretation.

[catgirl shooting bonus round... start!]
So what happens if I teleport across the Date line? If such exists of course. =P
[/joking]

Depending on whether you can get your DM to laugh, that would be a way to regain spells quicker. Be careful, though, you'll lose all the time you gained once you teleport back!


About Daily Limit, yes, the name daily limit implies that you cannot use it more than once per day. (I say implies, because names are categories and could work rather differently from what they say they are)

Oh, come on. What exactly do you think "daily limit" is supposed to mean? There's a fine line between interpretation and obfuscation, and I think you just crossed it.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-26, 06:52 PM
Not quite. The daily limit and the 8 hour limit are separate restrictions. You have to follow both.

• You can't use a spell slot more than once per day.
• You can't use a spell slot if you've used it in the last 8 hours.

The two don't contradict each other; they're two separate limitations that you need to follow. The recent casting limit is a problem if you get attacked during the night; the daily limit is a problem if you're trying to prepare spells multiple times per day.
Precisely.

If the party is at risk of being attacked in the night, that keeps them on their toes. If the wiz would regain every single spell after the night anyway, he can go nova and cast everything he has left during the nightly encounter, which pretty much negates the risk. Hence this rule: if you cast spells during your rest, they count against your limit for the next day. (a meaner version would be to require an uninterrupted rest to regain spells in the first place)


It's generally possible to come up with a convoluted alternative interpretation of the rules, but you should keep common sense in mind. Adventuring for twenty minutes and then going to sleep again is (1) ludicrous from a character point of view, and (2) further skewing the power balance in favor of casters. The narcoleptic party problem is clearly and obviously not what the designers intended, and of course the DM is under no obligation to allow it.

And, well, whenever your claim hinges on the notion that a word like "daily" means something else in-game than it does normally, you had better be able to cite a page and paragraph where the WOTC manual redefines that word. The game has a list of defined terms, and any term not on that list can be assumed to use the plain English definition, i.e. "once per day".

jseah
2009-12-26, 07:03 PM
Depending on whether you can get your DM to laugh, that would be a way to regain spells quicker. Be careful, though, you'll lose all the time you gained once you teleport back!
XD You lose the time, but do you lose the spells? (besides the teleport slots)


Oh, come on. What exactly do you think "daily limit" is supposed to mean? There's a fine line between interpretation and obfuscation, and I think you just crossed it.
Daily means within a period of time concerning one day.
When it's applied as a category, not necessarily due to rules that can bypass said limit.

Hmm... I need an example.
I'm sure there must be some example out there where a written description contradicts (but fails to call out as an exception) a general property of a category.
*searching*
*********************************

So what do you do when another rule allows you bypass it however?

Is the regaining PP section any different from a magic item that does the same thing?

Say we had a magic item that said, after using this item, the psion can regain his PP up to his daily limit. Doesn't that give you all your PP back?

jseah
2009-12-26, 07:09 PM
Ok, found one.

Category:
Reflex
These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks. Apply your Dexterity modifier to your Reflex saving throws.

Spell:
Wall of Ice
Any creature adjacent to the wall when it is created may attempt a Reflex save to disrupt the wall as it is being formed. A successful save indicates that the spell automatically fails.

******************************

There we go, an exception to a category property without being called out as an exception.

-> Usable only once per day is something that Daily Limit means.

-> Something that gives you more uses of whatever that daily limit is applied to need not call out that it does this as an exception.

Eg. Something that refills times per day use of Spell like abilities gives you more uses of said ability regardless of whether the day has passed or not.
Shouldn't the same apply to PP regaining?

Kurald Galain
2009-12-26, 07:11 PM
There we go, an exception to a category property without being called out as an exception.
The difference is that "reflex save" is an explicitly defined term that has a different meaning in-game than it does normally, and "daily limit" is not.

jseah
2009-12-26, 07:22 PM
The difference is that "reflex save" is an explicitly defined term that has a different meaning in-game than it does normally, and "daily limit" is not.
I'm sure we all agree that X uses per day is what daily limit means.

So isn't that a... how do you say this... reasonable interpretation:
That daily limit refers to something that prevents you from applying something more than a certain stated number of times within a particular 24 hour period.

What I meant was that the PP regaining mechanic is an (unstated) exception to the Daily Limit, X times per day, general rule.
Not that Daily doesn't mean X times per day by default.


About Daily Limit, yes, the name daily limit implies that you cannot use it more than once per day. (I say implies, because names are categories and could work rather differently from what they say they are)
I apologize. The sentence turned out rather differently from what I thought I was trying to say.

When I said, "could work rather differently", I meant that the default might not happen all that often in practice.

Time to rephrase it... hm...

About Daily Limit, yes, the name daily limit says that you cannot use it more than once per day. (As it is a category, actions might exist that bypass this limit and thus work out differently in practice than at reading)

I hope this is clearer now.

Skorj
2009-12-26, 07:26 PM
The difference is that "reflex save" is an explicitly defined term that has a different meaning in-game than it does normally, and "daily limit" is not.

This, of couse, makes "daily" a bit of a squishy term in 3.5 (I think it becomes an in-game term with a technical definition in 4.0). I've always ruled it as being "per calander day" and not the more stringent "24-hour timer", but that's RAI, not RAW, because "daily" isn't defined in RAW.

That being said, common sense works well for squishy terms.

OracleofWuffing
2009-12-26, 07:31 PM
Ok, found one.

Category:
Reflex
These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks. Apply your Dexterity modifier to your Reflex saving throws.

Spell:
Wall of Ice
Any creature adjacent to the wall when it is created may attempt a Reflex save to disrupt the wall as it is being formed. A successful save indicates that the spell automatically fails.
Wait wait wait wait wait...

So I can reflex save to disrupt my own Wall of Ice if I so choose, presuming I'm standing next to it? :smalltongue:

jmbrown
2009-12-26, 07:34 PM
Wait wait wait wait wait...

So I can reflex save to disrupt my own Wall of Ice if I so choose, presuming I'm standing next to it? :smalltongue:

Yeah. Speaking of reflex saves, something I usually forget as DM (and no player has ever corrected me) is that cover provides a bonus to reflex saves.

If I made the DM's screen it would 100 feet long.

jseah
2009-12-26, 07:37 PM
This, of couse, makes "daily" a bit of a squishy term in 3.5 (I think it becomes an in-game term with a technical definition in 4.0). I've always ruled it as being "per calander day" and not the more stringent "24-hour timer", but that's RAI, not RAW, because "daily" isn't defined in RAW.

That being said, common sense works well for squishy terms.
It doesn't change the fact that the "squishy" term has a meaning.

And that meaning is some kind of limit of quantity within a certain time period called a day. (whether that is 24 hour timer or 1 calendar day is up to DM)

********************

I thought of how the 24 hour limit could be used instead of the 1 calendar day limit. Yes, it makes the 8 hour recent cast limit moot.

If you take the 12:00 to 12:00 interpretation, let's say we have this hypothetical problem:

A mage has a CL12 Eternal wand of extended Mage Armour. (each casting lasts 24 hours)
He uses the charges at 11:30pm on his party then goes to sleep.
At dawn, the charges come back since it has passed 12:00am.

???

OracleofWuffing:
Maybe that counts as an obscure rule people have forgotten? XD

jmbrown
2009-12-26, 07:44 PM
It doesn't change the fact that the "squishy" term has a meaning.

And that meaning is some kind of limit of quantity within a certain time period called a day. (whether that is 24 hour timer or 1 calendar day is up to DM)

********************

I thought of how the 24 hour limit could be used instead of the 1 calendar day limit. Yes, it makes the 8 hour recent cast limit moot.

If you take the 12:00 to 12:00 interpretation, let's say we have this hypothetical problem:

A mage has a CL12 Eternal wand of extended Mage Armour. (each casting lasts 24 hours)
He uses the charges at 11:30pm on his party then goes to sleep.
At dawn, the charges come back since it has passed 12:00am.

???

OracleofWuffing:
Maybe that counts as an obscure rule people have forgotten? XD

Pretty sure that wand doesn't work. The modified spell level counts towards the limit so you wouldn't be able to make a wand like that.

jseah
2009-12-26, 07:47 PM
Pretty sure that wand doesn't work. The modified spell level counts towards the limit so you wouldn't be able to make a wand like that.
Sure it can.

Extended Mage Armour is only a level 2 slot. Which is within the 4th level spell limit.

jmbrown
2009-12-26, 07:51 PM
Sure it can.

Extended Mage Armour is only a level 2 slot. Which is within the 4th level spell limit.

Then how are you suggesting the charge recharges?

jseah
2009-12-26, 07:59 PM
Eternal wands have a X/day limit instead of 50 charges.

It's an eberron thing.

jmbrown
2009-12-26, 08:06 PM
Eternal wands have a X/day limit instead of 50 charges.

It's an eberron thing.

So what are you trying to suggest? By RAW the item recharges 24 hours after you use it, not at a specific time or whenever you rest ("Sleep with me, my wand, so I may impart my magics upon you!").

Of course, I've never seen anyone run games like this because it's just more numbers you have to keep track of.

Player A: I use my cloak of arachnida to cast web. What time is it?
DM: Uhhhh... I'll tell you when it recharges.

jseah
2009-12-26, 08:09 PM
Well, if magic item uses per day recharge after a 24 hour time period, then so do spells since the wording is the same IIRC.
Similarly, if spells are to recharge at 12:00, then so do eternal wands.

Eh, don't quote me on that though, for all I know charged items could have a specific stipulation.

Irreverent Fool
2009-12-26, 09:08 PM
What? I thought it applied against every attack. The whole, only works once per round was a 3.0 thing, was it not?

I thought so, too. But SRD seems to state:

A creature with resistance to energy has the ability (usually extraordinary) to ignore some damage of a certain type each round

I'd be glad to be proven to have been right in the first place though :)

obnoxious
sig

jmbrown
2009-12-26, 09:12 PM
Well, if magic item uses per day recharge after a 24 hour time period, then so do spells since the wording is the same IIRC.
Similarly, if spells are to recharge at 12:00, then so do eternal wands.

Eh, don't quote me on that though, for all I know charged items could have a specific stipulation.

The PHB says that a wizard technically casts the spell as they're memorizing it; they just don't activate the spell until they say the final words. For a wizard, their 24 hour clock begins when they crack open the spell book and begin memorizing. Leaving slots open to add spells at a later time is like priming your porch before painting it.

You still need 8 hours of rest after you cast a spell to memorize it. Think of resting as washing the dishes. You can't eat off dirty dishes (casting a spell from a "dirty" spell slot) until you clean it (rest for 8 hours). Both rules are applied simultaneously so

A) You're limited to the number of spells you can memorize in a day.

and

B) It takes 8 hours to 'refresh' a used spell slot.

If both criteria aren't met then you can't memorize a spell.

Again, I've never seen anybody play by the rule exactly.

jseah
2009-12-26, 09:28 PM
How the fluff works for preparing spells has no bearing on how the daily limit is supposed to work. =( I never really liked that but there it is.


Also, I'm not entirely sure that your interpretation is RAW (and RAW is unexplained). Then again when what "Day" means is not given, I'm sure one or the other will be picked.

24 hours or calendar day. Whichever suits your DM I guess.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-12-26, 09:52 PM
Okay. Maybe I'm a freak because I read the Rules Compendium. But I know all of the mentioned rules except the one below. And I use them as a DM (except the weight of money... so gay)


The order in which your magic items get toasted if you roll a natch 1 on a Reflex save is a darn obscure one.This is like Disjunction and sundering for me. Using it decreases fun :smallfrown:


you cannot be a cleric of a god if your race isn't on their common worshippers list (so no human clerics of corellon)Hmm where can I find that?


Outsider's boss: It's been 2 days since Larry came into work. I better investigate this.:smallsmile:


We got two tornadoes and a blizzard. In one day of weather. They were level 5.Man I wanna be in your campaign! :smallredface:


Desert Wind Dodge...

Midnight Dodge...[/i]I take neither. For my builds use a better one yet. I wonder who has the Fu to guess it (looking at my build compendium is cheating). Edit: Ug DuskEclipse scores before I post. DragoonWraith would have never caught it but DeadmeatGM still didn't


Cleric and Cloistered Cleric aren't "wholly separate"Wrong


Actually the summon monster spells bring a 'copy' of an existing monster to you.Or perhaps the summoning nerfs some abilites. I would like a rule quote involving a meaning similar to "copy"


I don't think I have seen a person who didn't make that adjustment :)Me. Dodge is supposed to suck.


screwing over a cleric and not giving her a single moment to prepare spells is not an example of good DMingThat depends if u do that to the other 'win-button' classes. Having a samuri and true-namer in the party might be another reason. I can think of at least 1 campaign breaking Cleric20 build that uses no castiing...


Denying a character most of his class abilities arbitrarily is not fun.So my fighter sub with epic feats isn't nerfed either? :smallwink:


If you think you can get away by sleeping in the lion's den before killing the lion then it's your own damn fault. There's nothing arbitrary about it.I agree in DnD terms. Out of them however there was this one guy... (damnation had nothing to do with it :smallsmile:)


The SRD links and quotes so far show that we were wrong and you can rest multiple times in one 24 hour period.You mean spellcasters have brokenly-powerful-by-default rules? How surprising! Any DM worth a lick nerfs (if even allows) casting. The whole argument is how restrictive 'daily' should mean, ie. does daily mean daily or does it not because the rules don't say it does.


something I usually forget as DM (and no player has ever corrected me) is that cover provides a bonus to reflex saves.Finally someone is back on top. Quote please? I wonder if the directionality plays any role...


"Sleep with me, my wand, so I may impart my magics upon you!"You know what they say about replacing 'wand' with 'wang' in HP... :smalltongue:

UserClone
2009-12-26, 11:53 PM
Okay. Maybe I'm a freak because I read the Rules Compendium. But I know all of the mentioned rules except the one below. And I use them as a DM (except the weight of money... so gay)

This is like Disjunction and sundering for me. Using it decreases fun :smallfrown:

Hmm where can I find that?

:smallsmile:

Man I wanna be in your campaign! :smallredface:

I take neither. For my builds use a better one yet. I wonder who has the Fu to guess it (looking at my build compendium is cheating). Edit: Ug DuskEclipse scores before I post. DragoonWraith would have never caught it but DeadmeatGM still didn't

Wrong

Or perhaps the summoning nerfs some abilites. I would like a rule quote involving a meaning similar to "copy"

Me. Dodge is supposed to suck.

That depends if u do that to the other 'win-button' classes. Having a samuri and true-namer in the party might be another reason. I can think of at least 1 campaign breaking Cleric20 build that uses no castiing...

So my fighter sub with epic feats isn't nerfed either? :smallwink:

I agree in DnD terms. Out of them however there was this one guy... (damnation had nothing to do with it :smallsmile:)

You mean spellcasters have brokenly-powerful-by-default rules? How surprising! Any DM worth a lick nerfs (if even allows) casting. The whole argument is how restrictive 'daily' should mean, ie. does daily mean daily or does it not because the rules don't say it does.

Finally someone is back on top. Quote please? I wonder if the directionality plays any role...

You know what they say about replacing 'wand' with 'wang' in HP... :smalltongue:

There's so many words
but did you say anything?
Think before you post.

P.S. Please don't use "gay" as a derogatory term. It's offensive and rude...and retarded. :smalltongue:

Back OT, I'd have to say I don't understand how Shape Soulmeld works, when taken as a floating feat with the Chameleon class feature of the same name. Do you keep the soulmeld when you change the feat? Does that mean you can just fill all your available slots with soulmelds?

Irreverent Fool
2009-12-27, 12:57 AM
Finally someone is back on top. Quote please? I wonder if the directionality plays any role...

Pretty sure this one is in the Rules Compendium under 'Cover'.


Cover and Reflex Saves

Cover grants you a +2 bonus on Reflex saves against attacks that originate or burst out from a point on the other side of the cover from you. Note that spread effects can extend around corners and thus negate this cover bonus.

Direction does indeed play a role. What is a little confusing to me is 'originates'. Doesn't a fireball originate from the caster, not the point at which it explodes?

obnoxious
sig

UserClone
2009-12-27, 01:38 AM
No. An explosion (or a spell) explodes outwards evenly (obstacles notwithstanding) in all directions simultaneously from a central point, unless stated otherwise. The origin, in this case, is the square or vertex in the exact center of the spell effect.

Irreverent Fool
2009-12-27, 01:48 AM
No. An explosion (or a spell) explodes outwards evenly (obstacles notwithstanding) in all directions simultaneously from a central point, unless stated otherwise. The origin, in this case, is the square or vertex in the exact center of the spell effect.

You're absolutely right. But I was concerned that it may not be so by the RAW. Managed to find it, though.



Range

A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the Range entry of the spell description. A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted. Standard ranges include the following.

obnoxious
sig

Curmudgeon
2009-12-27, 03:20 AM
Cleric and Cloistered Cleric aren't "wholly separate".

Wrong
You'll need to try harder than that.
Cleric Variant: Cloistered Cleric
...
The cloistered cleric has all the standard cleric class features, except as noted below. Seems like something other than "wholly separate" to me.

UserClone
2009-12-27, 06:31 PM
Quotes like that are what led to my impotent rant in haiku form.

John Campbell
2009-12-27, 08:37 PM
The log will burn just fine, it just needs a bit of help. Either a really big fire, or all sorts of fun chemicals loaded up with carbon and hydrogen. The really fun ones even have a bit of oxygen on top of that. Of course, if the log is about the size of the fire, good luck.

Ah, yes, that's what we need! Accelerants! We'll just soak it in lamp oil... or, better yet, alchemist's fire, and light that, and that'll catch it on fire for sure!

Except that even alchemist's fire does only 1d6 damage, which is not enough to penetrate the hardness of wood, so that won't even slightly scorch it.

And this is hardness, not energy resistance, so it's per attack, not per round.

taltamir
2009-12-27, 09:00 PM
The book calls them daily spells.

They don't have to explicitly say was 'daily' means any more than they have to say what the word 'illumination' means! It's assumed that you know English!

the only suggested limitation to 24 hours is that the book refers to them at one point as "daily" spells... But when specifying limitations on daily spells, it does not specify a limit to once per day.
why does that mean 24 hour and not "time during which the sun is up" or even "daily spells can be refreshed multiple times a day with proper rest"?

after all, "always chaotic evil" is EXPLICITLY stated to mean "usually chaotic evil, there is an overwhelming social tendency, or perhaps they are created chaotic evil, but they can change their alignment as a sentient being to something else".

jseah
2009-12-27, 09:06 PM
Perhaps we had better not ressurect that argument.

I think we concluded that it was basically up to the DM as RAW is too unclear.