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Surrealistik
2009-12-26, 01:45 PM
"This will be the last time you see me..." -The Spy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTj6tauY1JU&feature=related) (identity unknown)

"There is an idea of a Patrick Bateman, some kind of abstraction, but there is no real me, only an entity, something illusory, and though I can hide my cold gaze and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable: I simply, am not, there." -Patrick Bateman, American Psycho (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icrTMD20kxI) (not quite a Spy, but the quote is apt)

http://th03.deviantart.net/fs70/300W/f/2009/357/b/4/TF2_Joker_Card_by_Gavade.jpg

Design goal: 3rd-4th Tier class that trades combat prowess and survivability for enhanced skill utilization, and specialization at infiltration, finesse, trickery and deception.

Alignment
Any.

Hit Die
d4.

BAB: Poor.

Saves: Will: High, Reflex: Low, Fortitude: Low

Skill Points at 1st Level:
(8 + Int modifier) ×4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level:
8 + Int modifier.

Class Skills:
The Spy’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Autohypnosis (Wis), Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (All) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).

{table=head]Level:|BAB:|Fort:|Ref:|Will|Special
1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Agent of Subterfuge I, Bonus Languages, Poison Use, Sneak Attack 1d6, Trapfinding, Practiced Assassin I
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Agent of Subterfuge II, Improved Disguise, Trackless Step
3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Trap Sense, Sneak Attack 2d6, Practiced Assassin II
4th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Agent of Subterfuge III, Mental Conditioning
5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Air of Mystique, Agent of Subterfuge III, Greater Disguise, Sneak Attack 3d6
6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Agent of Subterfuge IV, Practiced Assassin III
7th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Shadow of Doubt, Sneak Attack 4d6
8th|+4|+2|+2|+6|Agent of Subterfuge V, Superior Disguise, Veil of Deceit
9th|+4|+3|+3|+6|Hide in Plain Sight, Impenetrable Mind, Sneak Attack 5d6
10th|+5/+0|+3|+3|+7|Agent of Subterfuge VI, Master of Subterfuge I
11th|+5/+0|+3|+3|+7|Death Attack, Sneak Attack 6d6
12th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8|Agent of Subterfuge VII
13th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8|Master of Disguise, Sneak Attack 7d6
14th|+7/+2|+4|+4|+9|Agent of Subterfuge VIII, Fade to Black
15th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+9|Master of Subterfuge II, Sneak Attack 8d6
16th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10|Agent of Subterfuge IX, Shroud of Secrecy
17th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10|Sneak Attack 9d6
18th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|Agent of Subterfuge X,
19th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|Sneak Attack 10d6
20th|+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|Agent of Subterfuge XI, Terminus Est[/table]


Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:
Spies are proficient with all simple and improvised weapons, and a number of light exotic and/or light martial weapons equal to 1 plus their Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield.


Bonus Languages:
At the 1st class level, the Spy gains a bonus language of your choice.

At each class level beyond the first, the Spy gains an additional language of your choice.


Poison Use:
Spies are skilled in the use of poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison.


Agent of Subterfuge (Ex):
At the 1st class level, select a number of class skills equal to 3 + your INT mod in addition to Bluff, Disguise and Gather Information.

You gain a bonus to selected skills at the 1st class level equal to 1, plus 1 at the 2nd class level, and every other class level beyond the 2nd. Furthermore, as these skills become an object of intense study, and rigorous, methodical discipline, you may add your Intelligence modifier to them (this only applies for skills that do not feature Intelligence as their key ability). Lastly, you may once reroll any natural 1s rolled when attempting to use these skills.

You may swap any number of these selected skills for an equivalent number of different skills from your class skill list upon gaining a class level. Bonuses derived from this ability apply only to currently selected skills.


Sneak Attack (Ex):
If a Spy can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, he can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The Spy’s attack deals extra damage any time his target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the Spy flanks his target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two Spy levels thereafter. Should the Spy score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a Spy can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. He cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A Spy can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The Spy must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A Spy cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.


Trapfinding (Ex):
Spies can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20.

Finding a non-magical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

Spies can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

A Spy who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with his party) without disarming it.


Practiced Assassin (Ex):
Starting at the 1st class level, the Spy adds his Intelligence modifier (if positive, up to a maximum equal to his class level) and half his class levels to the attack and damage rolls of his Sneak Attacks.

Starting at the 3rd class level, the Spy adds his Intelligence modifier (if positive, up to a maximum equal to his class level) and one fourth of his class levels to the save DCs of all poisons he crafts.

Starting at the 6th class level, the Spy adds half his Intelligence modifier (if positive) and one fifth of his class levels to the damage, ability damage and drain inflicted by poisons he crafts, and the Spy may apply poison to an object, or area up to 5 square feet as a Swift Action.


Improved Disguise (Ex):
At the 2nd class level, you gain the Improved Disguise feat even if you don't meet the prerequisites. You do not suffer the normal –2 penalty when disguising yourself as another gender, race, or age category. You can don a disguise in half the normal time.


Trackless Step (Ex):
Starting at the 2nd class level, the Spy cannot be tracked. He can choose to leave a trail if desired.


Trap Sense (Ex):
At 3rd level, a Spy gains an intuitive sense that alerts him to danger from traps, giving him a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the spy reaches 6th level, to +3 when he reaches 9th level, to +4 when he reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.


Mental Conditioning (Ex):
Starting at the 4th class level, the Spy gains a bonus to all saves and checks made versus Mind-Affecting (including fear, torture and intimidation effects) and Divination spells, abilities and effects (including Spot and Intelligence checks made to notice scrying sensors) equal to his Intelligence modifier (if positive), + 1 for every two class levels.

When successfully saving against a Mind-Affecting effect, the Spy may pretend to be influenced or compromised by it with a successful opposed Bluff or Perform(Acting) check against the Sense Motive skill of that effect's user. For effects that establish any sort of telepathic connection, the Spy may relay whatever thoughts he wishes to the user of those effects; all other thoughts the user is not privy to.

Further, when targeted by a spell, ability or effect that detects or reveals the Spy's alignment, he is entitled to a Will save against it equal to the effect's DC (calculate the DC of effects without a save as normal). If the Spy succeeds on this opposed save, he always detects as an alignment of his choice, or none at all for the user of that effect. If the user of an effect thwarted in this way later attempts to use another alignment detecting effect with a higher DC, the Spy must make another Will save to maintain his deception.


Greater Disguise (Ex):
Starting at the 5th class level, you gain a +5 circumstance bonus on all Disguise checks versus those unfamiliar with the creature you are impersonating. The penalties to Disguise checks for changing your apparent height and weight are reduced by half (round down). You can create a disguise in half the normal time. You can don a disguise in a quarter of the normal time. These benefits are addition to those afforded by the Improved Disguise feat. Benefits related to circumstance bonuses, and time required to don and create a disguise do not stack with other Spy abilities or the Improved Disguise feat.


Air of Mystique (Su):
Starting at the 5th class level, the Spy's auras and that of any of his carried equipment are obfuscated as if affected by a continuous Nystul's Magic Aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm) spell, although it also applies to the Spy, and can conceal or fabricate alignment based auras as well. The DC is equal to 10 + the Spy's Intelligence modifier + half the Spy's class levels. The effective caster level is equal to the Spy's class level. If dispelled, the Spy may resume the effect as a Free Action.


Shadow of Doubt (Ex):
Starting at the 7th class level, the Spy is automatically entitled to Search, Listen and Spot checks to notice disguised, invisible, hidden and/or polymorphed creatures, counterfeited documents, secret, invisible and/or hidden doors, traps, passages, objects and the like when he comes within a number of feet of them equal to 5 feet, plus 5 feet per 3 class levels beyond the 7th.

Further the Spy automatically performs a Hunch check (see the Sense Motive skill) when interacting with anyone with a bonus equal to his class level.

Lastly, the Spy may now also apply his save bonuses from Mental Conditioning to illusory spells and effects.


Superior Disguise (Ex):
Starting at the 8th class level, the Spy gains a +10 circumstance bonus on all Disguise checks versus those unfamiliar with the creature he is impersonating. You can create a disguise in a quarter of the normal time. You can now don a disguise as a full round action (This provokes an attack of opportunity). You can adjust your apparent height and/or weight by up to 25% without incurring a penalty. These benefits are addition to those afforded by the Greater Disguise ability. Benefits related to circumstance bonuses, and time required to don and create a disguise do not stack with other Spy abilities or the Improved Disguise feat.


Veil of Deceit (Ex):
Beginning at the 8th class level, if the Spy succeeds on a Will save against a Divination effect, he becomes aware of the true identity (including appearance) and location of the creature attempting to use the effect on him, and may have that Divination effect instead target another creature he knows. This designated creature interacts with the effect as usual, and is entitled to the typical saves and resistances.


Impenetrable Mind (Ex):
Starting at the 9th class level, if the Spy is affected by a Mind-Affecting or Divination spell or effect and fails his saving throw, he can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. He gets only this one extra chance to succeed on his saving throw.


Hide In Plain Sight (Ex): At the 9th class level or higher, a Spy can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, concealment or crowd, a Spy can hide himself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.


Master of Subterfuge (Ex):
Starting at the 10th class level, skills enhanced by Agent of Subterfuge are improved even further. You may take a 10 on these skills even when distracted or under stress, and you cannot critically fail any skill check involving them. Further, the Spy is able to reroll any skill check of any skill enhanced by Master of Subterfuge, and accept the result of his choice. These rerolls stack with any other effect that permits a skill check reroll.

Starting at the 15th class level, skill checks that require a full round or less to complete can now be done one degree of time sooner. Consult the following table:

{table=head]Normal Action Duration:|New Action Duration:
Full Round Action|Standard Action
Standard Action|Move Action
Move Action|Swift Action
Swift Action|Free Action[/table]

Skill checks that require more than a Full Action to complete now take half the normal time to complete. For the purposes of this class feature, half of a Full Action is a Standard Action, half of a Standard Action is a Move Action, half of a Move Action is a Swift Action, and half of a Swift Action is a Free Action. This stacks with any other skill or effect that modifies the time required to utilize a skill.


Death Attack (Ex): Beginning at the 11th class level, if the Spy studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a Sneak Attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (Spy’s choice). While studying the victim, the Spy can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the Spy or recognize him as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + half the Spy's class level + the Spy’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the Spy. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the Spy has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.

If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the Spy does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack.


Master of Disguise (Ex):
Starting at the 13th class level, the Spy gains a +20 circumstance bonus on all Disguise checks versus those unfamiliar with the creature he is impersonating. The Spy can now don a disguise as a Standard Action (This provokes attacks of opportunity), and create a disguise in a full round (This provokes attacks of opportunity). Though people intimately familiar with the creature you are impersonating remain suspicious, they receive no bonus to their Spot checks. You can adjust your apparent height and/or weight by up to 50% without incurring a penalty. These benefits are addition to those afforded by the Superior Disguise feat. Benefits related to time required to don and create a disguise provided by other Spy abilities overlap and do not stack.


Fade to Black (Ex):
Starting at the 14th class level, if the Spy reduces a creature to less than 0 hit points, or renders it otherwise helpless while hidden as a result of a Sneak Attack, he may immediately attempt to hide again as a Free Action at no penalty. If he succeeds at this hide attempt, the attack and the Spy go completely unnoticed. If that creature remains conscious, he is aware of the attack, but fails to notice the Spy himself if his hide attempt is successful.


Shroud of Secrecy (Su):
Starting at the 16th class level, the Spy gains the benefits of a continuous Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm) effect. He may repeal and reinstate this effect when desired as a Free Action, and may do so in response to being targeted with a Divination or Mind-Affecting spell or effect.

While immune to Mind-Affecting effects, he may pretend to be influenced or compromised when subject to one with a successful opposed Bluff or Perform(Acting) check against the Sense Motive skill of that effect's user. For effects that establish any sort of telepathic connection, the Spy may relay whatever thoughts he wishes to the user of those effects; all other thoughts the user is not privy to.

While immune to Divination effects, if the Spy succeeds on a Will save against the usual DC of such an effect, he becomes aware of the true identity (including appearance) and location of the creature attempting to use the effect on him, and may have that Divination effect instead target another creature he knows. This designated creature interacts with the effect as usual, and is entitled to the typical saves and resistances.


Terminus Est (Ex): At the 20th class level, the Spy only requires 1 round of study to initiate a Death Attack. Furthermore, the Spy adds his full class level instead of half his class level to the DC of his Death Attacks.

Flickerdart
2009-12-26, 04:18 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa. The DC uses the Spy's level? Not half-level, as is the case for all base class abilities (Stunning Fist, for example)? The reason Assassin has the full class level used is that it's only 10 levels long. Your Spy's Death Attack is going to pretty much kill everything it hits. An ability that strong would propel this class into Tier 2: it's one trick, but it's a very good trick, and with the rest of the class features, your Spy becomes very powerful indeed.

Milskidasith
2009-12-26, 04:30 PM
There's also the wording of Master of Subterfuge which makes all of your possible actions one action sooner, not just the ones for skill checks. That alone makes this class pretty damn powerful.

deuxhero
2009-12-26, 04:50 PM
Why is speak language not a class skill?

Milskidasith
2009-12-26, 04:52 PM
Anyway, this basically seems like a rogue + Extra skillmonkey abilities, disguise, death attacks at absurd DCs, and other stuff. Even with the absurd DC on death attack, it's still too impractical for use in combat and the class, overall, is probably right where you want it, if only because it bumps the rogue from T4 to T3.

Surrealistik
2009-12-26, 05:37 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa. The DC uses the Spy's level? Not half-level, as is the case for all base class abilities (Stunning Fist, for example)? The reason Assassin has the full class level used is that it's only 10 levels long. Your Spy's Death Attack is going to pretty much kill everything it hits. An ability that strong would propel this class into Tier 2: it's one trick, but it's a very good trick, and with the rest of the class features, your Spy becomes very powerful indeed.

T2? Where Sorcs and Psions play, despite the class' fragility and the limited scope of Death Attack? I think that's taking it a bit far.



There's also the wording of Master of Subterfuge which makes all of your possible actions one action sooner, not just the ones for skill checks. That alone makes this class pretty damn powerful.

This is contrary to intention, it is supposed to be skill check specific; the problem is readily noted. Changing now.

Milskidasith
2009-12-26, 05:42 PM
I kind of think this should have 3/4ths BAB, considering it's supposed to be at least somewhat melee capable.

Surrealistik
2009-12-26, 05:44 PM
I kind of think this should have 3/4ths BAB, considering it's supposed to be at least somewhat melee capable.

Sneak/Death Attack attack rolls basically have full BAB + Int modifier due to Practiced Assassin, though the Spy does not get additional attacks. His regular attacks are outright terrible though, but this is by design.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-26, 05:51 PM
If you use {table=head], your table will get a nice header row in a different color, which can help.

Surrealistik
2009-12-26, 05:54 PM
Thanks Dragoon, updated.

Raiki
2009-12-26, 09:49 PM
I must confess. When I first glanced at this class, noted the 2 poor saves, the poor bab, the d4 hit die, and the complete lack of spellcasting...I almost didn't bother reading any further. But I have to say that you write a convincing spy/assassin sir. It's got a very "Agent 47" feel to it.

Or maybe that's because I've been playing too much Hitman lately.

Anyway, I like it. I must agree with the above posters that perhaps full class level to the Death Attack DC is a bit much. Even raging barbarians of equal ECL have a very high chance of insta-death by that formula.

To reduce it to the math:

Level 11, when the ability is gained, he'll have a DC of 26 (10+11 class level +5 Int mod [actually a rather low assumption for ecl 11])

A Barbarian will have a save of +15 (7 base + 5 con +3 rage [from boosted con]).

That means the barbarian still has to roll an 11 or better to live. That's flat 50/50 odds for the guy with the strongest fort save in the party.

The Rogue on the other hand will have a +5 (+3 base +2 con) fort save at level 11. This gives him exactly a 5% chance to succeed. :smalleek:

We won't even talk about the Wizard or Sorcerer.

Then throw in the fact that this class is fairly Int-SAD, and you have a truly horrendous DC, and high chance of most battles ending in the suprise round.

Other than that one small balance issue, I think it's fantastic. :smallbiggrin:

~Raiki~

Surrealistik
2009-12-26, 09:54 PM
True, his Death Attack is very powerful, but on the otherhand, it is pretty much all he has combat wise (and is something many types of enemies are utterly immune to).

Thanks for the feedback btw :)

Raiki
2009-12-26, 10:01 PM
True, his Death Attack is very powerful, but on the otherhand, it is pretty much all he has combat wise (and is something many types of enemies are utterly immune to).

Yes, many enemies are immune to precision damage et all, but most PCs aren't, and honestly I see this as an NPC tlEG (tiny little EVIL GUY) class more than anything else.

As far as it being his only combat option?

Hardly. Put the party fighter on the other side of the enemy from him and all of a sudden he's swinging at basically full BAB + str + int for fistfulls of d6s, plus poison. LOTS of high save dc, high damage poison.

Don't sell your class short. He's no slouch in combat. He just needs it to be on his terms...and he's very good at making sure it IS.

~Raiki~

Edit: No problem. It's always good to see the skill-monkey get some love.

Surrealistik
2009-12-26, 10:07 PM
Oh for sure, his Sneak Attacks are devastating. You definitely do not want to keep this guy exposed and in the open too long to make flanking attacks though, for reasons that are painfully apparent! Definitely a class that operates best when employing stealth and subtle finesse in combat situations.

Also added a quote from American Psycho I feel to be completely apt.

Raiki
2009-12-26, 10:22 PM
Meh, a ring of invisibility is only 20k gp. A greater cloak of displacement (which renders his d4 hit die and his AC moot 50% of the time) isn't much more, and considering the fact that Int is the only ability he really NEEDS, dex and con are the obvious 2nd and 3rd choices (not necessarily in that order).

Also, since he can make is own poisons for coppers on the gold piece, and since pretty much any weapon becomes deadly in his hands, he can spend most of his WBL on surviving. Carpet of Flying, Boots of Haste, Cloak of Res +5, Ring of Pro +5, Bracers of Armor +10, Wands of omfg everything (Mirror image springs to mind as a good choice. Preferably heightened.).

Again, he's really no slouch in melee or ranged combat. Add in the fact that he has HiPS and the Fade to black ability, and he can become a sniper to be feared, hiding behind the fighter and shooting you in the face from between his legs. All for sneak attack and poison damage.

Anyway, as I've said, I really like the class, I'll probably try to sneak it past my DM and will definately encourage my players to give it a shot.

~Raiki~

Edit: Actually, I'm trying to find/create variants for ALL the non-caster classes that bring them up to par with Wizards/Psions. I might just make this the official "Rogue" of my campaigns now.

Edit-the-2nd: Also, great quote, though that book scared the bejebus out of me. That might have something to do with the fact that I was 15 at the time, though. Watching a slasher movie is one thing, reading a slasher book is another thing entirely.

Surrealistik
2009-12-26, 10:29 PM
Yes, several magic items and mid-late class abilities later he becomes exponentially more deadly, but at every point, his fragility is pretty notable and a definite weakness, particularly in the early levels. My point is essentially that all of his combat prowess is contingent on Sneak/Death Attacks (by design), and while he does him well, he is rather useless versus opponents that somehow negate or are immune to them, while being all but completely unable to weather abuse.

If you do manage to use it in a campaign, be sure to let me know how it works out.

Tierwise, where do you feel this falls?

EDIT: Yeah, the book and film alike are pretty disturbing. There's elements of humour but they easily get overwhelmed by the visceral detail and horror.

Raiki
2009-12-26, 10:35 PM
Hmmm. With the Death Attack DC using full class level I'd put it at very low tier 2. The ability to make anything not immune to fort saves just die 50% of the time is pretty ridiculous.

Knocking the save down to half class level or even 3/4 class level would make it a mid-to-high tier 3 I think. A respectable position by all means. :smallsmile:

~Raiki~

Surrealistik
2009-12-26, 10:38 PM
Done. DC is now equal to 10 + 1/2 Class level + Int mod

Realms of Chaos
2009-12-26, 11:19 PM
Okay, this is going to be my first time reading through this post so I will comment as I go along.


"This will be the last time you see me..." -The Spy (identity unknown)

http://th03.deviantart.net/fs70/300W/f/2009/357/b/4/TF2_Joker_Card_by_Gavade.jpg

Nice pic and good opening quote. Although it's just a matter of fluff, you might want to put who the quote on the line below the quote. Also, it just seems odd that the quote comes from "the spy". Why not do something mysterious and suiting like "unknown spy, alias John Doe"? Just an idea.


Design goal: 3rd-4th Tier class that trades combat prowess and survivability for enhanced skill utilization, and specialization at infiltration, finesse, trickery and deception.

I'll keep this in mind as we go.


Alignment
Any.

Hit Die
d4.

BAB: Poor.

Saves: Will: High, Reflex: Low, Fortitude: Low

Skill Points at 1st Level:
(8 + Int modifier) ×4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level:
8 + Int modifier.

Class Skills:
The Spy’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Craft(Poison) (Int), Craft(Trapmaking) (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (All) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Acting) (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).

So far, so good. I'm seeing the reduced survivability you talked about with that d4 HD. You may want to take out that information about the saving throws as it now appears on the table below. As for skills, everything seems to be an order but there is one thing to consider. I have never seen a class grant specific Craft, Perform, or Profession skills. Consider simply adding craft as a skill rather than restricting it to types of crafting. After all, it would let a good spy pose as an artisan.


{table=head]Level:|BAB:|Fort:|Ref:|Will|Special
1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Agent of Subterfuge I, Bonus Languages, Poison Use, Sneak Attack 1d6, Trapfinding
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Improved Disguise, Trackless Step
3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Agent of Subterfuge II, Trap Sense, Sneak Attack 2d6, Sneak Attack Mastry
4th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Mental Conditioning
5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Air of Mystique, Agent of Subterfuge III, Greater Disguise, Sneak Attack 3d6
6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Practiced Assassin
7th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Agent of Subterfuge IV, Shadow of Doubt, Sneak Attack 4d6
8th|+4|+2|+2|+6|Superior Disguise, Veil of Deceit
9th|+4|+3|+3|+6|Agent of Subterfuge V, Hide in Plain Sight, Impenetrable Mind, Sneak Attack 5d6
10th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Master of Subterfuge I
11th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Agent of Subterfuge VI, Death Attack 6d6
12th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8|Master of Disguise
13th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8|Agent of Subterfuge VII, Master of Disguise, Death Attack 7d6
14th|+7/+2|+4|+4|+9|Fade to Black
15th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+9|Agent of Subterfuge VIII, Master of Subterfuge II, Death Attack 8d6
16th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10|Shroud of Secrecy
17th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10|Agent of Subterfuge IX, Death Attack 9d6
18th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|
19th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|Agent of Subterfuge X, Death Attack 10d6
20th|+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|Terminus Est[/table]

Wow! alot of abilities there. Then again, with a d4 hd, bad BAB, and only a good Will save, this thing is competing against the wizard/sorcerer in basic design, meaning that this might not even be enough. As you intended a 3rd-4th tier class however, that is a-okay.
Looking over the tale, one thing that strikes me as incredibly odd is level 18. Every other level has one (or more) ability but level 18 only gives you saving throws and BAB. One thing to consider is pushing back the agent of subterfuge abilities by 1 level (so you get them at every even level).


Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:
Spies are proficient with all simple weapons, and a number of light exotic and/or martial weapons equal to their Intelligence modifier. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield.

Although I understand that letting this guy gain proficiency with shuriken, garrotes, and other such "assassin" weaponry is right up this guy's ally, it seems odd that a low-bab class might have proficiency with a greatsword (even if just as a disguise). I suggest putting a specific list of martial/exotic weapons down that this guy is proficient with, even if it ends up making this guy look a bit... oriental.



Bonus Languages:
At the 1st class level, the Spy gains a bonus language of your choice.

At each class level beyond the first, the Spy gains an additional language of your choice.

Not a big deal but knowing languages is kind of a plus, in certain situations, at least. An interesting flavor ability.


Poison Use:
Spies are skilled in the use of poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison.

At first, I was about to oppose giving this out at 1st level (compared with the assassin or ninja, who get it much later). Then I remembered that there's a feat that does the exact same thing (from drow of the underdark) that you can take at 1st level anyways.
That said, this ability is not overpowered but it still might make more sense to give it out a level or two later. The sad fact is, a spy just starting the game at level 1 probably won't have enough funds to get poison (or at least not more than 1 dose). By 3rd or 4th level, however, the spy may have some more "disposable" wealth.


Agent of Subterfuge (Ex):
At the 1st class level, select a number of class skills equal to 3 + your INT mod in addition to Bluff, Disguise and Gather Information.

You gain a cumulative +1 bonus to these skills at the 1st class level, and every other class level beyond the 1st. Furthermore, as these skills become an object of intense study, and rigorous, methodical discipline, you may add your Intelligence modifier to them (this only applies for skills that do not feature Intelligence as their key ability). Lastly, you may once reroll any natural 1s rolled when attempting to use these skills.

You may swap any number of these selected skills for an equivalent number of different skills from your class skill list upon gaining a class level.

The precise wording of this confuses me. If I'm reading this properly, you gain a +1 bonus to the skills at 1st level, a separate (and hopefully not stacking) +2 bonus at 2nd level, a third +3 bonus at 3rd level, etc (the word "cumulative" causes this confusion).It may just be easier to say you gain a bonus to these skills equal to your class level.
Also, I can't tell if the Intelligence bonus to skills is in addition to or in place of the normal ability modifier (it doesn't say in place of but if that is the case, why put the restriction on Int-based skills).
Rerolling natural 1s is interesting but isn't all that great, unless your DM rules that natural 1s on skill checks are auto-failures (which is not the default rule).

One last thing doesn't seem to make sense. What on earth happens when you get Agent of Subterfuge II-IX? The way this ability is currently written, you gain new bonuses and can switch skills whenever you gain a class level, not when you gain a class level that grants that class feature again.


Sneak Attack (Ex):
If a Spy can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, he can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The Spy’s attack deals extra damage any time his target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the Spy flanks his target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two Spy levels thereafter. Should the Spy score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a Spy can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. He cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A Spy can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The Spy must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A Spy cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Well, this is fairly odd. This class is honestly very unlikely to hit anything (at least from what i've seen thus far), even if the target loses their Dex modifier. I'll see if this ability gets any support later on.

Also, on the class table above, sneak attack damage somehow becomes death attack damage midway through. You may want to fix that.


Trapfinding (Ex):
Spies can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20.

Finding a non-magical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

Spies can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

A Spy who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with his party) without disarming it.

A good old skillmonkey standby. Nothing wrong with putting it here.
Moving on...


Improved Disguise (Ex):
At the 2nd class level, you gain the Improved Disguise feat even if you don't meet the prerequisites. You do not suffer the normal –2 penalty when disguising yourself as another gender, race, or age category. You can don a disguise in half the normal time.

Where might I find the improved disguise feat and what does it do. Alternatively, if the rest of the effect is telling me the effects of said feat, there is no reason to tell us that it is even a feat.


Trackless Step (Ex):
Starting at the 2nd class level, the Spy cannot be tracked. He can choose to leave a trail if desired.

Getting this ability a bit earlier than other classes but it makes sense here... more or less.


Trap Sense (Ex):
At 3rd level, a Spy gains an intuitive sense that alerts him to danger from traps, giving him a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the spy reaches 6th level, to +3 when he reaches 9th level, to +4 when he reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.

If you were ever for some reason inclined to believe that this class is a bit too cluttered with special abilities, I recommend this one as the one you remove.

Although it does go well with trapfinding, the spy strikes me as a person who had read up on every form of pit and spring-loaded mechanisms from books and classes rather than from personal experience. That said, this ability doesn't really make sense for them.


Mental Conditioning (Ex):
Starting at the 4th class level, the Spy gains a bonus to all saves and checks made versus Mind-Affecting (including fear, torture and intimidation effects) and Divination spells, abilities and effects (including Spot and Intelligence checks made to notice scrying sensors) equal to his Intelligence modifier (if positive), + 1 for every two class levels.

When successfully saving against a Mind-Affecting effect, the Spy may pretend to be influenced or compromised by it with a successful opposed Bluff or Perform(Acting) check against the Sense Motive skill of that effect's user. For effects that establish any sort of telepathic connection, the Spy may relay whatever thoughts he wishes to the user of those effects; all other thoughts the user is not privy to.

Further, when targeted by a spell, ability or effect that detects or reveals the Spy's alignment, he is entitled to a Will save against it equal to the effect's DC (calculate the DC of effects without a save as normal). If the Spy succeeds on this opposed save, he always detects as an alignment of his choice, or none at all for the user of that effect. If the user of an effect thwarted in this way later attempts to use another alignment detecting effect with a higher DC, the Spy must make another Will save to maintain his deception.

Well, many BBEGs could use a 4-level dip in spy, if just for this ability. Very handy and gets around a myriad of problems all at once.


Greater Disguise (Ex):
Starting at the 5th class level, you gain a +5 circumstance bonus on all Disguise checks versus those unfamiliar with the creature you are impersonating. The penalties to Disguise checks for changing your apparent height and weight are reduced by half (round down). You can create a disguise in half the normal time. You can don a disguise in a quarter of the normal time. These benefits are addition to those afforded by the Improved Disguise feat. Benefits related to circumstance bonuses, and time required to don and create a disguise do not stack.

Nice! A first level spell (disguise self) still outdoes it in many ways but this is very nice for what is so far a completely mundane class.


Air of Mystique (Su):
Starting at the 5th class level, the Spy's auras and that of any of his carried equipment are obfuscated as if affected by a continuous Nystul's Magic Aura spell, although it also applies to the Spy, and can conceal or fabricate alignment based auras as well. The DC is equal to 10 + the Spy's Intelligence modifier + half the Spy's class levels. The effective caster level is equal to the Spy's class level. If dispelled, the Spy may resume the effect as a Free Action.

It looks like I spoke too soon. Here we have a supernatural ability. Disguising items rarely comes up but it's an interesting and flavorful ability, if nothing else.


Practiced Assassin (Ex):
Starting at the 6th class level, the Spy adds his Intelligence modifier (if positive) and half his class levels to the attack and damage rolls of his Sneak Attacks, his Intelligence modifier (if positive) and one fourth of his class levels to the DCs of all poisons he crafts, and half his Intelligence modifier (if positive) and one fifth of his class levels to the ability damage and drain inflicted by poisons he crafts. Poison may also be applied to an object as a Swift Action.

And now sneak attack makes sense. This kind of goes away from the entire "sacrifice combat" theme considering that you end up with over a +20 bonus to attacks at 20th level(+10 bab + 10 1/2 level + Int mod), deal more damage than a rogue, and gain poison powerful enough to make poison a credible strategy.
That said, this ability is totally weird. After 5 levels of being a total wimp in combat, you suddenly start killing... everybody. There is no transitional phase so it just ends up looking wierd. No neccessarily bad, but wierd.


Shadow of Doubt (Ex):
Starting at the 7th class level, the Spy is automatically entitled to Search, Listen and Spot checks to notice disguised, invisible, hidden and/or polymorphed creatures, counterfeited documents, secret, invisible and/or hidden doors, traps, passages, objects and the like when he comes within a number of feet of them equal to 5 feet, plus 5 feet per 3 class levels beyond the 7th.

Further the Spy automatically performs a Hunch check (see the Sense Motive skill) when interacting with anyone at a bonus equal to his class level.

Lastly, the Spy may now also apply his save bonuses from Mental Conditioning to illusory spells and effects.

Well, this is pretty potent, now isn't it. It is often said that a wizard with a few wands of divination spells (plus knock) completely takes the place of a rogue. This ability, all by itself, makes those wands look like a terribly foolish investment.
When you say that the hunch bonus is at a bonus equal to your class level, does that mean that you roll (1d20+class level) as your Sense motive check, ignoring ranks and wisdom modifiers? Perhaps you meant that the check is made with a bonus equal to his class level.


Superior Disguise (Ex):
Starting at the 8th class level, the Spy gains a +10 circumstance bonus on all Disguise checks versus those unfamiliar with the creature he is impersonating. You can create a disguise in a quarter of the normal time. You can now don a disguise as a full round action (This provokes an attack of opportunity). These benefits are addition to those afforded by the Greater Disguise feat. Benefits related to circumstance bonuses, and time required to don and create a disguise do not stack.

At long last, after 8 levels, you can rival disguise self. Unfortunately, your wizard counterpart already has alter self and is about to get polymorph. It's not a bat ability but it's not the best, either.


Veil of Deceit (Ex):
Beginning at the 8th class level, if the Spy succeeds on a Will save against a Divination effect, he becomes aware of the true identity (including appearance) and location of the creature attempting to use the effect on him, and may have that Divination effect instead target another creature he knows. This designated creature interacts with the effect as usual, and is entitled to the typical saves and resistances.

Well, this is new. Not even detect scrying outdoes this (though mindblank is arguably better, nobody will be seeing that for awhile). Nice ability, if a bit narrowly focused.


Impenetrable Mind (Ex):
Starting at the 9th class level, if the Spy is affected by a Mind-Affecting or Divination spell or effect and fails his saving throw, he can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. He gets only this one extra chance to succeed on his saving throw.

A slightly better slippery mind. I like it.


Hide In Plain Sight (Ex): At the 9th class level or higher, a Spy can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

Hmmm...
No other base class gets HiPS this early on. Then again, it is possible to get it via prestige classes this early and other base classes aren't trying to equal wizards.
Even so, this HiPS isn't like the one that shadowdancers (which requires shadow) or rangers (which requires natural terrain) have. This one is just invisibility, whenever you like it. If you have the darkstalker feat (lords of madness), you can hide from absolutely anything.
Considering how early this ability is gained, I would give it some sort of necessary trigger to activate. Perhaps require being near shadows (ala shadowdancer) or being within 30 feet of 10+ other people (fading into a crowd like a spy). In fact, you could make it so that they can hide if either of those two requirements are matched.


Master of Subterfuge (Ex):
Starting at the 10th class level, skills enhanced by Agent of Subterfuge are improved even further. You may take a 10 on these skills even when distracted or under stress, and you cannot critically fail any skill check involving them. Further, the Spy is able to reroll any skill check of any skill enhanced by Master of Subterfuge, and accept the result of his choice. These rerolls are cumulative with any other effect that permits a skill check reroll.

Starting at the 15th class level, skill checks that require a full round or less to complete can now be done one degree of time sooner. Consult the following table:

{table=head]Normal Action Duration:|New Action Duration:
Full Round Action|Standard Action
Standard Action|Move Action
Move Action|Swift Action
Swift Action|Free Action[/table]


Skill checks that require more than a Full Action to complete now take half the normal time to complete. For the purposes of this class feature, half of a Full Action is a Standard Action, half of a Standard Action is a Move Action, half of a Move Action is a Swift Action, and half of a Swift Action is a Free Action. This stacks with any other skill or effect that modifies the time required to utilize a skill.

Take 10, reroll, and reduced time for skills. Talk about skill mastery on steroids. Once again, your use of the word cumulative kind of muddles things. In typical DnD lingo, effects "stack with" others or "don't stack with" others but they are rarely, if ever, "cumulative with" others.


Death Attack (Ex): Beginning at the 11th class level, if the Spy studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a Sneak Attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (Spy’s choice). While studying the victim, the Spy can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the Spy or recognize him as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the Spy’s class level + the Spy’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the Spy. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the Spy has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.

If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the Spy does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack.

Once again, fairly standard fair. Nothing much to comment on.



Master of Disguise (Ex):
Starting at the 13th class level, the Spy can now don a disguise as a standard action (This provokes attacks of opportunity), and create a disguise in a full round. Though people intimately familiar with the creature you are impersonating remain suspicious, they receive no bonus to their Spot checks. These benefits are addition to those afforded by the Superior Disguise feat. Benefits related to time required to don and create a disguise provided by other Spy abilities do not stack.

Again, other than asking whether superior disguise is a feat or a class feature, this ability is fairly solid.


Fade to Black (Ex):
Starting at the 14th class level, if the Spy kills a creature, decrements its Hit Points to -1 or less, or renders it otherwise helpless while hidden as a result of a Sneak Attack, he may immediately attempt to hide again as a Free Action at no penalty.

How about saying, "Starting at 14th level, if the Spy using the hide skill drops a foe below 0 hit points or renders them helpless with a sneak attack, he may make a new Hide check as a free action with no penalty."
Also, I just noticed that you are always saying "starting at xxth class level". You don't actually need the words "class level". They are already implied.


Shroud of Secrecy (Su):
Starting at the 16th class level, the Spy gains immunity to all Mind-Affecting and Divination spells, abilities and effects. He may repeal and reinstate this immunity when desired as a Free Action, and may do so in response to being targeted with such an effect.

While immune to Mind-Affecting effects, he may pretend to be influenced or compromised when subject to one with a successful opposed Bluff or Perform(Acting) check against the Sense Motive skill of that effect's user. For effects that establish any sort of telepathic connection, the Spy may relay whatever thoughts he wishes to the user of those effects; all other thoughts the user is not privy to.

While immune to Divination effects, if the Spy succeeds on a Will save against the usual DC of such an effect, he becomes aware of the true identity (including appearance) and location of the creature attempting to use the effect on him, and may have that Divination effect instead target another creature he knows. This designated creature interacts with the effect as usual, and is entitled to the typical saves and resistances.

It may be easier to say that this effect functions as the mindblank spell (with the additional effects when targetted by effects) rather than going through the trouble of explaining what mind-affecting/divination immunity entails. It'll save some space.


Terminus Est (Ex): At the 20th class level, the Spy may attempt a Coup De Grace versus an opponent that does not detect him or recognize him as an enemy who is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC as part of a Sneak Attack, even if he is not helpless.

This ability is overpowered by far. A coup de grace is based on how much damage you do. Let's say that you have Int 30 and a +5 dagger by 20th level (and I'm not optomizing, trust me). You throw the dagger at your opponent.

Base damage: 1d4+5 (average 7.5)
Adding 1/2 level and Int modifier due to practiced assassin: +20 damage
Adding in sneak attack damage: 10d6 (average 35)

The Save DC of a coup de grace is 10/15 (I forget which) + damage dealt. On average, that will be 72/77, something that is nearly impossible to overcome at that level (unless you are simply immune).
Although you need to remain undetected, that is not too difficult with this class. With your current hide in plain sight, anyone who takes the darkstalker feat will be undetectable by any means short of the faerie fire spell.
At most, I would change this ability so that you only need to observe for 1 round with your death attack. That is more than enough.

Overall Impression:
Although my opinions on the individual abilities weren't that overwhelming, I'm going to go ahead and say that this class is currently overpowered. Compared with the rogue, all that this class loses is 1 hit point/level and some armor (which can be replaced via the improved toughness and light armor proficiency feats, respectively), evasion/uncanny dodge and their improved versions, a single attack with the full attack action, and the option for a couple of special abilities (crippling strike and defensive roll).
The sheer amount of thingst that you get in return well outweighs this in almost every respect.
Strangely, that's how things work in DnD. You try building a class to rival the wizard but it ends up overpowered because it tries doing so in the same way as another class, thus stomping on its toes and making it utterly useless.

About a month ago, I also created a stealthy, skill-based class calledthe nobody (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133433). This class was far better at stealth and infiltration than the rogue. However, there was an actual trade-off.
My nobody, though good with a few skills, was by no means a skill monkey as we know the term. Furthermore, it didn't get trapfinding and its primary method of attack ensured that it was a good finnisher but nothing more. As such, even if a rogue and a nobody were on the same team, neither of them would feel obsolete.
As a general rule of thumb, whenever you build a base class that comes close to another one in design, you have to picture an adventuring party with members of both classes. Ask yourself, would either player feel obsolete or worthless in such a party? In the case of a party with both a rogue and a spy, the answer is yes. The spy would do everything that the rogue could do, only better.

My suggestions for this class are simple. Reduce sneak attack damage to 1d6 at 1st level, 2d6 at 4th level, and +1d6 more at each 4th level afterwards (to a max of 6d6 at 20th level).
Next, remove trapfinding and have the benefit from agent of subterfuge start at +1 and increase by +1 every 3 levels afterwards.
Furthermore, master of subterfuge should have a limit per day as to how many rerolls you get (3 + Int modifier sounds fair).
Change Practiced Assassin to add your Intelligence modifier (and nothing else!) to your attack rolls against flat footed foes, to damage rolls with sneak attack, and to the DCs of your poison. Furthermore, limit the maximum bonus to half of your class level.
Lasly, do away with trapsense, give hide in plain sight some requirement, and push both HiPS and death attack back a few levels (3-5 levels sounds right).
Edit: Also, consider taking trackless step out. Spies tend to work on a different kind of stealth entirely so it doesn't really make much sense.

As the result, you get a rogue with less sneak attack, a bit more proficiency with poison, eventual death attacking and hiding in plain sight, and a laundry list of immunities and skill bonuses. Less impressive in combat but more well-rounded.

Surrealistik
2009-12-27, 12:08 AM
Nice pic and good opening quote. Although it's just a matter of fluff, you might want to put who the quote on the line below the quote. Also, it just seems odd that the quote comes from "the spy". Why not do something mysterious and suiting like "unknown spy, alias John Doe"? Just an idea.

It's actually a reference to the TF2 Spy (http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Spy).

I personally find that the second quote is even better. :smallbiggrin:


Although I understand that letting this guy gain proficiency with shuriken, garrotes, and other such "assassin" weaponry is right up this guy's ally, it seems odd that a low-bab class might have proficiency with a greatsword (even if just as a disguise). I suggest putting a specific list of martial/exotic weapons down that this guy is proficient with, even if it ends up making this guy look a bit... oriental.

He can gain proficiency in specific light martial and exotic weapons only.


I have never seen a class grant specific Craft, Perform, or Profession skills. Consider simply adding craft as a skill rather than restricting it to types of crafting. After all, it would let a good spy pose as an artisan.


Yeah, I'm going to make these generic.


The precise wording of this confuses me. If I'm reading this properly, you gain a +1 bonus to the skills at 1st level, a separate (and hopefully not stacking) +2 bonus at 2nd level, a third +3 bonus at 3rd level, etc (the word "cumulative" causes this confusion).It may just be easier to say you gain a bonus to these skills equal to your class level.
Also, I can't tell if the Intelligence bonus to skills is in addition to or in place of the normal ability modifier (it doesn't say in place of but if that is the case, why put the restriction on Int-based skills).
Rerolling natural 1s is interesting but isn't all that great, unless your DM rules that natural 1s on skill checks are auto-failures (which is not the default rule).

I'll change the wording so that it reads "You gain a +1 bonus to these skills. This bonus increases by +1 for every 2 class levels."

Further, it is in addition to; in the absence of explicit language stating otherwise, this is what RAW dictates as intended.


One last thing doesn't seem to make sense. What on earth happens when you get Agent of Subterfuge II-IX? The way this ability is currently written, you gain new bonuses and can switch skills whenever you gain a class level, not when you gain a class level that grants that class feature again.

AoS II-X are used to delineate when new bonuses from the ability are accrued; you gain them at every other class level beyond the first. You can switch the selected skills every class level. This is as intended.



And now sneak attack makes sense. This kind of goes away from the entire "sacrifice combat" theme considering that you end up with over a +20 bonus to attacks at 20th level(+10 bab + 10 1/2 level + Int mod), deal more damage than a rogue, and gain poison powerful enough to make poison a credible strategy.
That said, this ability is totally weird. After 5 levels of being a total wimp in combat, you suddenly start killing... everybody. There is no transitional phase so it just ends up looking wierd. No neccessarily bad, but wierd.

I disagree that it truly departs from the theme of combat anemia. As a sneak attacker the Spy is hard to beat, but if he is ever in a position where he cannot leverage his Sneak Attacks he is boned. The same is true if he is exposed to aggression for any extended period, or a particularly harmful attack or effect.

The 6th level onset was chosen to discourage dipping, without having such a crucial ability come too late.


Where might I find the improved disguise feat and what does it do. Alternatively, if the rest of the effect is telling me the effects of said feat, there is no reason to tell us that it is even a feat.

Dragon Magazine issue 335, Pg92. Description is given for the sake of convenience.


Although it does go well with trapfinding, the spy strikes me as a person who had read up on every form of pit and spring-loaded mechanisms from books and classes rather than from personal experience. That said, this ability doesn't really make sense for them.

While much of his ability is firmly rooted in meticulous training and study, the class does have a sixth sense when it comes to the out of place and suspect.


When you say that the hunch bonus is at a bonus equal to your class level, does that mean that you roll (1d20+class level) as your Sense motive check, ignoring ranks and wisdom modifiers? Perhaps you meant that the check is made with a bonus equal to his class level.

Yes.


Also, I just noticed that you are always saying "starting at xxth class level". You don't actually need the words "class level". They are already implied.

I did not want to leave this open to interpretation at all.


This ability is overpowered by far. A coup de grace is based on how much damage you do. Let's say that you have Int 30 and a +5 dagger by 20th level (and I'm not optomizing, trust me). You throw the dagger at your opponent.

I had reservations about this ability, but on the otherhand, I wanted to give the Spy a truly worthy capstone that would strongly encourage precluding a dip. I do like the idea of reducing the study time for the Death Attack to 1 round, though I am not certain if this in itself makes for a sufficiently attractive capstone. I am inclined to have it improve the DC to include the Spy's full class level.



My suggestions for this class are simple. Reduce sneak attack damage to 1d6 at 1st level, 2d6 at 4th level, and +1d6 more at each 4th level afterwards (to a max of 6d6 at 20th level).
Next, remove trapfinding and have the benefit from agent of subterfuge start at +1 and increase by +1 every 3 levels afterwards.
Furthermore, master of subterfuge should have a limit per day as to how many rerolls you get (3 + Int modifier sounds fair).
Change Practiced Assassin to add your Intelligence modifier (and nothing else!) to your attack rolls against flat footed foes, to damage rolls with sneak attack, and to the DCs of your poison. Furthermore, limit the maximum bonus to half of your class level.
Lasly, do away with trapsense, give hide in plain sight some requirement, and push both HiPS and death attack back a few levels (3-5 levels sounds right).
Edit: Also, consider taking trackless step out. Spies tend to work on a different kind of stealth entirely so it doesn't really make much sense.

Respectfully have to decline most of these recommendations. I am looking for a mid-low 3rd, high 4th tier class. Further, many of these changes undermine the idea and theme of Sneak Attack specialization, and work against those of paranoia and untraceability.

The suggested HIPS limiters are acceptable; I will likely include those.

I do appreciate the feedback with respect to clarifying some of the language.

Milskidasith
2009-12-27, 02:26 AM
Terminus Est allowing the full class level for the save DC is still pretty powerful... then again, the fact that it still takes a wasted round to activate makes it a fair tradeoff.

Surrealistik
2009-12-27, 11:24 AM
Yes, that's my reasoning, plus it's his 20th level capstone.

Origomar
2009-12-27, 01:36 PM
so basically anything that isnt alive is going to completely destroy the spy?

Raiki
2009-12-27, 02:02 PM
so basically anything that isnt alive is going to completely destroy the spy?

Basically, yes.

But this is a Rogue-niche class, and things that aren't alive ALWAYS kill rogues. Even some things that ARE alive (oozes, plants, higher level rogues/barbarians, elementals, the list goes on) are going to destroy pretty much any rogue class. It's inevitable (and yes, those kill rogues too).

Sorry for the bad pun.

~Raiki~

Surrealistik
2009-12-27, 02:19 PM
Unless of course, he can use his social skills and trickery to "defeat" them, or manipulate others into defeating them for him (which is very much a possibility). If all else fails though, there's always UMD and traps, but yes, in direct combat, he is very, very suboptimal versus such opponents.

Surrealistik
2009-12-27, 05:54 PM
Revised Practiced Assassin so it has a less abrupt onset:

Practiced Assassin (Ex):
Starting at the 1st class level, the Spy adds his Intelligence modifier (if positive, up to a maximum equal to his class level) and half his class levels to the attack and damage rolls of his Sneak Attacks.

Starting at the 3rd class level, the Spy adds his Intelligence modifier (if positive, up to a maximum equal to his class level) and one fourth of his class levels to the DCs of all poisons he crafts.

Starting at the 6th class level, the Spy adds half his Intelligence modifier (if positive) and one fifth of his class levels to the damage, ability damage and drain inflicted by poisons he crafts, and the Spy may apply poison to an object, or area up to 5 square feet as a Swift Action.


Spy is now also proficient with Improvised Weapons.

Flickerdart
2009-12-27, 06:39 PM
Unless of course, he can use his social skills and trickery to "defeat" them, or manipulate others into defeating them for him (which is very much a possibility). If all else fails though, there's always UMD and traps, but yes, in direct combat, he is very, very suboptimal versus such opponents.
Or Wand of Golemstrike/Gravestrike/Vinestrike/the many other ways that Rogues can ruin the day of immune creatures.

Origomar
2009-12-27, 06:54 PM
Revised Practiced Assassin so it has a less abrupt onset:

Practiced Assassin (Ex):
Starting at the 1st class level, the Spy adds his Intelligence modifier (if positive, up to a maximum equal to his class level) and half his class levels to the attack and damage rolls of his Sneak Attacks.

Starting at the 3rd class level, the Spy adds his Intelligence modifier (if positive, up to a maximum equal to his class level) and one fourth of his class levels to the DCs of all poisons he crafts.

Starting at the 6th class level, the Spy adds half his Intelligence modifier (if positive) and one fifth of his class levels to the damage, ability damage and drain inflicted by poisons he crafts, and the Spy may apply poison to an object, or area up to 5 square feet as a Swift Action.


Spy is now also proficient with Improvised Weapons.


the improvised weapons isnt really neccessary, i tried making a prestige class built around attacking unarmed and using things he could make into weapons(aka he was proficient with them) but its really more of a playstyle than something you can make into a class or prestige class.

unless of course your making it to whwere he can apply poison to a bear bottle, break it and stab them with it just to get the poison effect and not have even more horrid BAB because of not being proficient.

Realms of Chaos
2009-12-27, 07:00 PM
Meh, sorry if I sounded a bit offensive.

In my mind, I balance all classes against the classes that they most closely resemble. Therefore, even though you specifically stated that you wanted a tier-3/high tier-4 stealth/finesse class, my mind compared it with the rogue (which it resembles most) rather than with other tier 3 classes.
I understand that the rogue, barbarian, and many others are already obsolete as is. Wizards, psions, sorcerers, and the like can take over their role with few problems. It always disturbs me a bit, however, when one class is obviously and blatantly better than another, sacrificing little and gaining a ton.
As you have not said that this class replaces the rogue, I end up thinking that this is meant to be played side-by-side along with it and that just seems... wrong...somehow.
Although it's a pain to make classes that nobody wants to play through for 20 levels (believe me, I know that pain all too well), this one base class seems to be the rough equal of another class' optimized build, including PrCs and feats. Then again, now that I think about it, however, there is not much room to make the spy more powerful via feats or PrCs so that is probably just fine.

Just wanted to explain where I'm coming from and apologize if I came across as harsh. [/rant-pology]

That said, hide in plain has recieved a (small) nerf, the capstone is no longer instant death, agent of subterfuge doesn't function as I thought (thank goodness), and the language has been cleaned up a bit.

Very good work

You still have to alter your class table so that sneak attack damage does not become death attack damage midway through.

Surrealistik
2009-12-27, 07:12 PM
Or Wand of Golemstrike/Gravestrike/Vinestrike/the many other ways that Rogues can ruin the day of immune creatures.

Aye, magic items give him plenty of tricks which can help shore up some of his combat deficiencies. Out of the box though, his weaknesses are pretty explicit.





the improvised weapons isnt really neccessary, i tried making a prestige class built around attacking unarmed and using things he could make into weapons(aka he was proficient with them) but its really more of a playstyle than something you can make into a class or prestige class.

unless of course your making it to whwere he can apply poison to a bear bottle, break it and stab them with it just to get the poison effect and not have even more horrid BAB because of not being proficient.

It's more flavour orientated than anything else, spies always having been portrayed as highly resourceful.





I understand that the rogue, barbarian, and many others are already obsolete as is. Wizards, psions, sorcerers, and the like can take over their role with few problems. It always disturbs me a bit, however, when one class is obviously and blatantly better than another, sacrificing little and gaining a ton.

I can empathize, that's completely understandable.


Although it's a pain to make classes that nobody wants to play through for 20 levels (believe me, I know that pain all too well), this one base class seems to be the rough equal of another class' optimized build, including PrCs and feats. Then again, now that I think about it, however, there is not much room to make the spy more powerful via feats or PrCs so that is probably just fine.

Yes, the idea is to strongly encourage pure classing, to give people competitive incentives for actually sticking with the class, without exceeding the Tier assignment desired for it.


That said, hide in plain has recieved a (small) nerf, the capstone is no longer instant death, agent of subterfuge doesn't function as I thought (thank goodness), and the language has been cleaned up a bit.

Eh, I wouldn't call it small. Actually having requirements within 10 feet as opposed to none period is pretty substantial :P.

I didn't find your critique offensive or hostile either, perhaps a little misunderstanding of the design goals in some cases, but on the whole constructive and valuable. Thanks. :)

Surrealistik
2010-01-01, 05:22 PM
Any further recommendations for improvement?

Raiki, how has your experience with the class been thus far?

Raiki
2010-01-01, 07:10 PM
Well, unfortunately my experiences haven't happened yet. My group hasn't actually met in the past few weeks due to holiday schedule clashing. Also, the game that I'm looking for the "Improved Classes" for (meaning the game that this class will be one of 2 classes replacing the rogue) won't start for quite some time; It's in the theoretical planning stages at the moment. I have this thread saved, and I promise I'll PM you when the campaign gets off the ground to let you know how it handles.

Anyway, I took a look at the recent changes, and I like it. I think the class is shaping up well and that it will be a good addition to the party when this game actually happens.

~R~