Is the Metal vs. Rap War one sided?

[Otogi]

It's no secret that almost everyone on this forum has a preference toward metal. I'm also guessing that almost everyone has a disdain for rap and hip-hop. I'm not here to argue whether they're right for doing so, or which one is really the best. What I do want to know is whether you guys have ever heard of a hip-hop aficionado who hates metal the same way. Has anyone ever had an experience like that?

[ZeroNumerous]

I, personally, like both. I also believe that Valhalla favors rap over metal, as the second has become largely pretentious and most power metal tells a story. However, rap is about monetary gain, driving down your enemies and hearing the lamentation of their women.

[Otogi]

I, personally, like both. I also believe that Valhalla favors rap over metal, as the second has become largely pretentious and most power metal tells a story. However, rap is about monetary gain, driving down your enemies and hearing the lamentation of their women.

But have you heard someone who loves hip-hop and hate metal with a passion?

[ZeroNumerous]

But have you heard someone who loves hip-hop and hate metal with a passion?

No, but I also generally don't ask. It's not something that comes up in casual conversation often...

"Hey Joe, I was just listening to Mastodon..."
"...Mastodon?! MASTODON?! AGRHBABBLEHATEMETAL!"

[Otogi]

No, but I also generally don't ask. It's not something that comes up in casual conversation often...

"Hey Joe, I was just listening to Mastodon..."
"...Mastodon?! MASTODON?! AGRHBABBLEHATEMETAL!"

Even over a forum or a chat?

[ZeroNumerous]

Even over a forum or a chat?

'Casual conversation' sorta covers... You know, everything that is casual and conversational.

[Faulty]

My brother used to listen to Rap, but not the good stuff, only the stuff on MTV and such, and at around that time I listened to nothing but Metal, and he used to say Metal sucked (as opposed to Rap). It might have been him just being antagonistic. He likes Iron Maiden and Metallica now that he plays guitar, but still doesn't like really heavy stuff.

Other than that I've had no experience with it. I've spent time on music forums and the /mu/ 4chan boards and I haven't seen many Rap fans who are really anti-Metal.

Part of it might be that Rap is more mainstream. People know about Slayer and Iron Maiden and stuff, but I think in popular music Rap is more prolific, so people who listen to Metal have definitely heard Rap, and generally only the bad stuff, while people who listen to Rap might have only heard "Ace of Spades" once.

[JabberwockySupafly]

However, rap is about monetary gain, driving down your enemies and hearing the lamentation of their women.

Those who say this need to know that Not (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEBGCOCxLgA) All (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrsj653088E) Rap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd_W_x3nclY) Is (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvY38j7JdCk) About (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbEwHJX95QE) Stuff (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKYVs9OoFFU) Like (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_zXInA0ROs) This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9-eKhCukW8).

I'm actually one of the rare few who has an abundance of love for both genres (well Indy or Underground Hip-Hop aka Conscious Rap not Gangsta or Pop Rap), but I do have a friend who listens to nothing but Indy Hip-Hop and positively despises metal in the same way most metalheads will automatically dismiss all rap as mindless ego-inflating narcissistic drivel.

[Moff Chumley]

I like em about equally... I mean, how can I choose between Sugar Hill Gang and Iron Maiden? :smallbiggrin:

[ZeroNumerous]

Those who say this need to know that Not (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEBGCOCxLgA) All (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrsj653088E) Rap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd_W_x3nclY) Is (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvY38j7JdCk) About (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbEwHJX95QE) Stuff (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKYVs9OoFFU) Like (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_zXInA0ROs) This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9-eKhCukW8).

Nice of you to link that, but you missed the context of the joke.

[Irenaeus]

However, rap is about monetary gain, driving down your enemies and hearing the lamentation of their women.I giggled.

As for the topic, I like both very well, event though both genres also include a large amount of music I'd rather never hear again.

[Faulty]

I giggled.

As for the topic, I like both very well, event though both genres also include a large amount of music I'd rather never hear again.

Music includes a large amount of music that I'd rather never hear again. :smalltongue:

[Falgorn]

I, personally, love both Metal and Rap. Rap can share themes with Metal at times, but not as often.
As stated above, Power Metal tells stories, but so can rap.
Like here, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqIrXACVOOA) here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehMSOycb5Lg) and here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wYNFfgrXTI&feature=channel)

Well, they may not be specifically rap but...
What the hey.

[Froogleyboy]

I hate metal, and love rap. But only the good stuff. Like: Pac, D12 (before Bugz died) etc

[JabberwockySupafly]

Nice of you to link that, but you missed the context of the joke.

Oh no, I completely got the context of the joke and laughed heartily whilst swigging my mead (Okay, coke, but still, I do have Mead in my bar fridge for tonight). I was simply saying there are far too many out there who fully believe that mindset. Those links (yes, plural. Each individual word links to a different song) are to help people with that mindset overcome it :)

[TheSummoner]

Give me metal any day. Metal can tell an epic story, rap tends to be nothing more than over synthesized music with no beat and words (often mispronounced or made up) that flaunt a lifestyle that is extravagant to the level of idiocy.

Pretty obvious what side I'm on ^_^.

[raitalin]

I dislike hearing it referred to as "Rap". Rap is what an Emcee does, the rhyming lyrics that are only one aspect of the song. The DJ and/or producer, or occasionally band (see: The Roots) are what supplies the music. The genre itself, and the culture attached to it, is properly called "Hip-hop." As the great KRS-one says "Rap is something you do, Hip-Hop is something you live."

When I first read the topic for this thread I thought "Sure, Metal is largely a fringe genre with very little innovation and Hip-hop is the dominant new music in almost every corner of the world." But on this forum, sure, there are decidedly more Metal fans.

Personally, I liked Metal more when I was younger, though I was always more into punk/garage/grunge rock. Now I find that Metal almost never has intelligible lyrics (which are the first thing I look for in a song), produces little emotion other than anger, and does not innovate.

Now the majority of Hip-hop is crap as well. Auto-tuners, B****es and money lyrics, over 2 "featurings" and rap feuds are all signs of crappy Hip-hop. Hip-hop also has the same pitfall as punk rock, where success itself often "dries up the well" of material that has emotional resonance (see:Eminem, Kanye West). However many groups still make quality music (the aforementioned Roots, KRS-one, Mos Def, Common, etc.)

[truemane]

I actually find both genres tend toward pretension and exclusion and are often so obsessed with in-group minutiae that applicable artists spend more time getting in their own way than they do actually expressing anything in particular and more time producing product that fits a niche than they do creating ‘art.’

But to answer the question, no, I don't see Hip Hop fans who are as anti-metal as I see vice versa. The previous posters might be correct that the phenomenon might be related to how popular 'rap' is (as opposed to Metal outside of Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath).

Also, since we've linked some non-bling-related rap, this guy is one of my all-time favourites. He's like xkcd come to vibrant, crazy life.

Greydon Square (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5R8kok_4d4)

Good times.

[DraPrime]

I like em about equally... I mean, how can I choose between Sugar Hill Gang and Iron Maiden? :smallbiggrin:

Easy. Does Sugar Hill Gang have anything equalling the complete coolness and awesome that is Eddie? I think not!

[Moff Chumley]

Welcome to the 70s. That will be all. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diiL9bqvalo)

[TheSummoner]

I'll take the 90's, thank you. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-ER5---jSk)

[DraPrime]

I'll take the 90's, thank you. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-ER5---jSk)

I'll go in the middle, and take the 80s. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj7UBgVVew8)

[TheSummoner]

I'll go in the middle, and take the 80s. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj7UBgVVew8)

Another very good one. Sir, you have my praises.

[Innis Cabal]

Welcome to the 70s. That will be all. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diiL9bqvalo)

To be fair, thats barely the 70's at that point.

[Boo]

Easy. Does Sugar Hill Gang have anything equalling the complete coolness and awesome that is Eddie? I think not!
Welcome to the 70s. That will be all. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diiL9bqvalo)

PWNT

>>

Anyway, I'm more accustomed to hip hop (not rap) than metal. I dislike most metal because, well--y'know how 60-80% of all genres aren't very good? Well, there's more metal groups I know than hip hop, thus I dislike metal more.

Also, I don't like music that's oppressive (Bros before hoes? Really?) or music that I couldn't understand even if I spoke the language. I like some power metal, epic metal, and progressive metal, but otherwise... yeah. If a person has to use killing as a metaphor in a song for something less dreadful, I don't listen to them. I don't mind them, but I don't like them.

Basically, I need my music to have either an interesting point or be fun without being stupid.

[DraPrime]

PWNT

>>

Anyway, I'm more accustomed to hip hop (not rap) than metal. I dislike most metal because, well--y'know how 60-80% of all genres aren't very good? Well, there's more metal groups I know than hip hop, thus I dislike metal more.

Errr, what's the logic behind that? There's more metal, so there's more bad bands, so thus it's a worse genre? But there's also more good bands this way.

[Weiser_Cain]

I'm not really on this forum but I like both. Metal heads hate rap more than rap fans even think of metal.

[Boo]

"I know more metal bands than I know hip hop." And I dislike most metal genres. I dislike only a few hip hop, thus I like hip hop more.

EDIT: Think of it like this: I will probably like 10% less than the percentage of good metal bands and only 5% less hip hop.

Therefore: 80% bad + 10% disliked = 90% metal disliked. Likewise, I will dislike 85% of hip hop.

This is in the theoretical situation where I know and have listened to every hip hop/metal band ever.

EDIT 2: ...I sound SO cynical. :smalltongue:

[Decoy Lockbox]

I'm actually one of the rare few who has an abundance of love for both genres (well Indy or Underground Hip-Hop aka Conscious Rap not Gangsta or Pop Rap), but I do have a friend who listens to nothing but Indy Hip-Hop and positively despises metal in the same way most metalheads will automatically dismiss all rap as mindless ego-inflating narcissistic drivel.

Though I'm a diehard metalhead, I also enjoy some underground rap, and I also have a nostalgic fondness for the hip-hop of my youth (Nelly, Ludacris, etc). I still find it hilarious that my favorite underground rapper, Vinnie Paz (of Jedi Mind Tricks/Army of the Pharaohs), basically just writes songs about normal rap stuff, but uses more interesting wordplay and verbiage. He also uses classical music in a lot of his songs, which I think works really well for hiphop. Exhibit A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMXSTaD-oyE), Exhibit B (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNITJsOrHr0).

Most of the rap fans I talk to usually don't care about metal. They normally don't listen to it, but they have none of the animosity that the metal fans have. So I think the whole "rap vs metal" thing has been manufactured and blown out of proportion by metalheads. I think they just focus their inherent hatred for popular music into rap, since thats whats in vogue at the moment.

But it is true that metal does foster an "us versus them" mentality. Heck, just listen to this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnuGn39wP8c). Some of the lyrics:

"We'll never betraye our brothers
United we stande in this fighte
We swore allegiance together
This fire will never die
Bounde by the oathe, a faithe to defende
We're storming into victory
If it's not in your bloode you won't understande
Metal is the pride we feele"

I should note that the lyrics do in fact have the "e"'s added to the end! Crazy I know, but Stormwarrior has always been nuts.


Metal is largely a fringe genre with very little innovation

See, this is just wrong. The reason we have to many dang subgenres is because people keep innovating. If modern metal sounded the same as 70s metal or 80s metal, it would be a boring world indeed. Thankfully this is not the case.

[SDF]

How about the sleek veneer of the 2000's? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaFygeknae8)

I enjoy both. I've seen way more live metal shows than rap, but most of the time those two genres to me represent fun. I'm a sucker for a good beat and think that on the whole rap wins the edge in my favor. For the most part I just get really upset when people dismiss an entire genre of music.

[RationalGoblin]

I dislike hearing it referred to as "Rap". Rap is what an Emcee does, the rhyming lyrics that are only one aspect of the song. The DJ and/or producer, or occasionally band (see: The Roots) are what supplies the music. The genre itself, and the culture attached to it, is properly called "Hip-hop." As the great KRS-one says "Rap is something you do, Hip-Hop is something you live."

When I first read the topic for this thread I thought "Sure, Metal is largely a fringe genre with very little innovation and Hip-hop is the dominant new music in almost every corner of the world." But on this forum, sure, there are decidedly more Metal fans.

Personally, I liked Metal more when I was younger, though I was always more into punk/garage/grunge rock. Now I find that Metal almost never has intelligible lyrics (which are the first thing I look for in a song), produces little emotion other than anger, and does not innovate.

Now the majority of Hip-hop is crap as well. Auto-tuners, B****es and money lyrics, over 2 "featurings" and rap feuds are all signs of crappy Hip-hop. Hip-hop also has the same pitfall as punk rock, where success itself often "dries up the well" of material that has emotional resonance (see:Eminem, Kanye West). However many groups still make quality music (the aforementioned Roots, KRS-one, Mos Def, Common, etc.)

Metal, a fringe genre with little innovation?

Uh, I'll have to respectively disagree on that.

There's doom metal, like St. Vitus. It has generally understandable lyrics, with a slow and mournful tune.

There's power metal, which is fast (but usually not unintelligibly fast), with epic stories that are part of the entire song. Blind Guardian is an example of this.

There's black metal, like Emperor, a genre that is fast, a bit unintelligible (at least in my experience) and is, yeah, kinda angry, if I remember correctly. I don't listen to it much.

But, again, I'm sorry, but how can you say that metal only inspires anger? some metal genres, specifically power metal, inspire courage, determination, and generally "pump" the listeners energy up. This is my experience, at least.

I'm sure that my fellow metalheads will back me up on this, though.

However, I do agree with you that some hip-hop is good, and in some areas, it is far more innovative than metal. But metal isn't stagnant, and it IS intelligible.

Oh, and metal is huge throughout Europe and some parts of North America. It is definitely not a fringe genre.

[Dispozition]

I'll take neither...Well, I'd take Metal over Rap, but I'd probably take hip-hop (that is, good, Australian, hip-hop (that is, mainly Hilltop Hoods)), over Metal. Some Post-metal and sludge metal (such as mastodon) is awesome though.

Really, while it all comes down to personal taste, and to some degree what you've grown up with, Rap just doesn't have much skill or musical talent in it. It's poetry to a basic, uninteresting beat. Metal, while you can hardly ever understand the lyrics, does have interesting musicality in it.

However, where the real skill lies is in the genre cross overs. I'm not a huge fan of hip-hop...But I do love the Flobots. A heavily hip-hop inspired group that come off on a far more indie rock genre as well. As for metal, you have things like Apocalyptica...Metal, on cellos. Even symponic metal, which is more a sub-genre than a cross over is extremely good. Metallica's S&M trumps all their other albums in my opinion, simply because of the orchestral backing.

[The Extinguisher]

I don't really enjoy metal. To be honest, I find it more focused on the technical skill of the musician, and less on the passion in the music. Don't get me wrong, I recognize how talented they are, it just doesn't do anything for me. I prefer raw emotion and raw music.

[Grommen]

Music be music. It's not good...It's not bad.. It is what it is.

And worry over the man who is not moved by it, and stuff like that.

I live very close to Detroit, and as so got explosed to every form of music you can think of.

I love good old in your face rock and roll, in what ever form it manifests. Most often that be metal. Sometimes it's well...Could be anything I've got thousands of tracks in my iTunes (and yes I bought them all..well most off anyway). Just depends on my mood. I'm not a big fan of Rap and Hip-Hop but, as long as they are not screaming about killing Whitie, I'm good.

Were all kinda like "The Kid" Rock up here. We like our Blues, Rock, Rythem, and Jazz.

[Faulty]

I don't really enjoy metal. To be honest, I find it more focused on the technical skill of the musician, and less on the passion in the music. Don't get me wrong, I recognize how talented they are, it just doesn't do anything for me. I prefer raw emotion and raw music.

Plenty of Metal does that, but I have found it is pretty bad for that. Maybe because Metal fans so quickly rally around "technicality" to justify their tastes.

[pita]

Answer: Both of them get eaten by Godzilla.
They're both popular types of music with good parts to each. I, personally, prefer metal, but my playlist also includes rap. It also includes every other musical genre, except for classical. I like to be able to sing along. I've never understood people who listened to one type of music, though. Can't we all just agree that everything has good and everything has bad, but nothing has as much bad as middle eastern music?

[The Demented One]

...the notion that the continuum of music basically boils down to "rap" on one side and "metal" on the other saddens and disturbs me.

[toasty]

...the notion that the continuum of music basically boils down to "rap" on one side and "metal" on the other saddens and disturbs me.

Alt. Rock is somewhere in the middle but without enough screaming.

To me though, in this debate, when one says "rap" I can also easily lump together all the other "boring beat, bad lyrics" music together under that genre. its not accurate, but it works for the purpose of this debate. By boring beat music, FYI, I mean Disco, House, Hip Hop, Rap, Dance-pop, etc.

There are other genres, but its the above that are the most popular, and as we all knowIts Popular, Now it sucks! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitle6cd1cskka05i?from=Main.ItsPopularNowItSucks) Okay, that's not entirely true, but I think that's part of the thing here. I don't NOT like rap, I just don't like bad rap and I've only mostly heard bad rap. I know there is good rap out there, I've just not heard any of it, nor am I that interested in it because well... I have my metal. :smallbiggrin:

[TheSummoner]

Rap doesn't suck because its popular, it sucks because theres no beat and the lyrics suck and tend to be about nothing more than whores, guns, drugs, idiotic spending, and drug addicted whores spending idiotic amounts on guns.

Give me Metal any day... Epic Metal, Speed Metal, Power Metal, Heavy Metal, even Death Metal from time to time.

I mean, how many other genres of music can tell an entire epic saga with nothing but their music?

[SDF]

Rap doesn't suck because its popular, it sucks because theres no beat and the lyrics suck and tend to be about nothing more than whores, guns, drugs, idiotic spending, and drug addicted whores spending idiotic amounts on guns.

Way to poorly marginalize the genre with conventional wisdom and stereotypes. You didn't even give one example of a legitimate criticism. :smallannoyed:



I mean, how many other genres of music can tell an entire epic saga with nothing but their music?

Classical music has been doing it for centuries. Post-rock does it better than any other modern genre I've heard.

[Boo]

Classical music has been doing it for centuries. Post-rock does it better than any other modern genre I've heard.

Most of my taste is based on classical or post-classic* music.


*A type of music that combines modern technology/innovation with classic sound. It can either be something remixed (well) or something completely new that feels like it could have been around in a futuristic past. I don't mean electronica--I don't really listen to a lot of that since I don't have much exposure to it.

[Dispozition]

*A type of music that combines modern technology/innovation with classic sound. It can either be something remixed (well) or something completely new that feels like it could have been around in a futuristic past. I don't mean electronica--I don't really listen to a lot of that since I don't have much exposure to it.

Depends. That's not the only sort of post rock. Bands like Holy F*ck (yes, that's their real name) are more of a rock band with a mixing desk that play very un-rock music. You can still hear the rock sounds and influences in there, but the mixing just gives it something extra, as does the genre shift.

[Warpfire]

Definitely Rap. I care more about lyrics than instruments, and Metal tends to focus heavily on instruments (unbelievably long and boring solos) while Hip-Hop is obviously all about the rapping/singing. And also I ****ing hate screaming. It's the worst form of 'singing' ever invented (well...maybe not worse than whatever it is Soulja boy is doing these days).

Oh, and it seems that unlike the few other rap fans around I listen to mainstream and gangsta rap. I don't really care that its violent or whatever. If I enjoy listening to something, I listen to it and that's it. It's just music, man.

Independent rap...eh. I don't know if I've listened to enough of it. Aesop Rock is boring and incomprehensible and has some of the weirdest and most irritating samples I've heard in awhile. Haven't heard enough of other stuff to form a good opinion on it.

Suppose I do listen to some non-mainstream stuff, but of the 'old' (NWA, Geto Boys, etc.) rather than indie variety.

And I've never really heard any Hip-Hop fans hating on metal (not counting myself above, especially considering I don't actually dislike it as much as it doesn't fit my tastes). In fact, they seem more open to giving a random metal/rock track a listen than vice versa, at least in my experience.

[raitalin]

As far as the "fringe" label goes, take a look at album charts. You'll see, what, 4-6 hip-hop albums for every Metal album? Metal is probably the most popular sub-genre of rock right now, but even with the rock family its still vastly outnumbered by everything else. I know Metal is popular in parts of Europe and the U.S., but Hip-hop is by far the dominant style in the U.S. and is rapidly gaining popularity in Africa, the Mid-East, East and South East Asia and South America.

I don't feel like constantly inventing sub-genres is exactly innovative. More like just slightly altering what's already been done. I feel like most of the options in Metal were explored in the late 70s/early 80s and now bands are simply all playing with that box of toys. They do it faster or slower or harder or softer, but its essentially the same stuff. Except maybe the screaming and growling, and that's by far my least favorite part of the genre.

Hip-hop has not only created itself from Soul, Funk and R&B, creating the very actions of Rapping and DJing in the process, it has even changed the face of rock music through bands like Sublime, Rage Against the Machine, The Red Hot Chili Peppers, Korn (and unfortunately, everything that sprang from them). It doesn't seem like many new techniques are coming out of Metal and changing other genres of music. Though there is a new resurgence of technical guitar skills, I don't know that it owes itself to Metal.

Maybe my big problem with metal is that I'm not looking for a story, I'm looking for a message. If I want a story, I'll read a book. Music provides an aspect to a message that cannot be gained through prose. Are their conscious (non-hate fueled) metal groups with intelligible lyrics? Maybe I can get into those.

And yeah, I gotta add to the opinion that Hip-hop listeners don't even know they're in a "vs.". Metal is simply not even on the radar to the great majority of them, and those that do know of it are more open, and even appreciative of it, than Metalheads are to Hip-hop.

[Boo]

Depends. That's not the only sort of post rock. Bands like Holy F*ck (yes, that's their real name) are more of a rock band with a mixing desk that play very un-rock music. You can still hear the rock sounds and influences in there, but the mixing just gives it something extra, as does the genre shift.

*was referring to orchestral, and early (waaaaay early) 20th century tunes for swingin' yer hips* I must have misread your post and thought classical in the classical sense rather than the modern. Not that they're that different.

And "Holy F***" isn't all that bad. Much Music interviewed a band named "F***" before. Hell, I saw a whole article about them in a Toronto paper back when I lived there.

[Tawmis]

It's no secret that almost everyone on this forum has a preference toward metal. I'm also guessing that almost everyone has a disdain for rap and hip-hop. I'm not here to argue whether they're right for doing so, or which one is really the best. What I do want to know is whether you guys have ever heard of a hip-hop aficionado who hates metal the same way. Has anyone ever had an experience like that?

Yes. I have. Repeatedly. One of my co-workers Christina is HEAVY into HIP HOP and CONSTANTLY slams my Metal music as being "nothing but yelling and screaming guitars and pounding drums."

I also know people who LOVE rock who hate Metal. People who love Beatles or Journey but simply can't stand metal.

I also know people who love Country and hate metal.

It's all a matter of preference.

[Tawmis]

Definitely Rap. I care more about lyrics than instruments, and Metal tends to focus heavily on instruments (unbelievably long and boring solos) while Hip-Hop is obviously all about the rapping/singing.


If you truly care about lyrics:
http://www.savatage.com/newsavatage/discography/albums/gutterballet/ofrageandwar.html

http://www.savatage.com/newsavatage/discography/albums/streets/believe.html

http://www.savatage.com/newsavatage/discography/albums/streets/stpatricks.html

http://www.savatage.com/newsavatage/discography/albums/handfulofrain/aloneyoubreathe.html

http://www.savatage.com/newsavatage/discography/albums/deadwinterdead/onechild.html

And for some absolutely epic metal that might surprise you...

http://popup.lala.com/popup/360569479528337534

And perhaps one of the most amazing, touching, epic, under rated songs...

http://popup.lala.com/popup/360569475233780784

[Dispozition]

*was referring to orchestral, and early (waaaaay early) 20th century tunes for swingin' yer hips* I must have misread your post and thought classical in the classical sense rather than the modern. Not that they're that different.

And "Holy F***" isn't all that bad. Much Music interviewed a band named "F***" before. Hell, I saw a whole article about them in a Toronto paper back when I lived there.

True. There's still a lot of classical inspired post-rock floating around today as well. But it's outnumbered by bands like GIAA and Caspian (both good bands too, although Caspian is better). I honestly prefer the electro/glitchy post rock to the straight played stuff, but I still like the straight stuff :D

And honestly, I'm sure there are much worse out there, but for the genre, it's a bit unexpected :P

[ClericPreston]

My general opinion of hip-hop is disdain. But, I have not been exposed to the worthwhile side of hip-hop like others here have been. I greatly prefer metal over any other genre, but I listen to things like classical music, and old-school country as well as ICP, so what would I know? I will say that, while I hate the vocal style of black metal, the over-the-top theatrics of bands like Demon Burger, Emperor, Marduk, Cradle of Filth, Behemoth, and Cannibal Corpse are always good for a laugh. How can I possibly take those nutters seriously? How evil can you possibly be if I can't tell what the hell you are talking about? I went to see the Mayhem Festival tour this last summer, and while Cannibal Corpse's set was entertaining, I literally could not make out one word of Corpsegrinder's growled vocals other than the song titles as he snarled them out. I prefer understandable vocals in my music, which is why Slayer is my favorite.

[mlkjhgfds]

Lots of people who only listen to rap do hate metal with the same intensity, but they're not the kind of people you'd see here, and they most often call it "rap", not "hip-hop". Lots of those also don't exactly hate metal, they just think it wouldn't be acceptable for them to listen to it, or something.

They aren't a majority in the world though.

[Don Julio Anejo]

I also know people who LOVE rock who hate Metal. People who love Beatles or Journey but simply can't stand metal.
I'm actually one of these people. It's not that I don't like metal (I've heard a lot of very good stuff on numerous occasions that people identified as either speed or death metal) but it just seems that anything I come across is, well, screaming. The closest I even get to metal in my collection is Deep Purple and Rammstein and both are better identified as, well, hard rock if you don't get into the whole sub-genre mess. Except maybe KoRn but I only have something like a half-dozen tracks by them.

I know this puts me into the whole "I haven't come across much good metal," but neither have most people in the mainstream. The most they usually come across is Marilyn Manson or Slipknot, neither of which have much beat or melody (at least in my experience). I'm guessing the same goes for metalheads and rap - unless you've got a buddy to sit down and sort through his collection to find stuff you actually like, it's hopeless trying to navigate it on your own. You're going to find a hundred songs by T-Pain, Usher and 50cent before you find one song you actually like.

When it comes to music, people like different things. And I don't mean genres (most people like more than one or two genres and they don't even have to be related). I mean things like beat, melody, singers' passion, catchy hooks, deep lyrics, etc. So someone who likes, for example, melodic songs with a good beat but is oblivious to whether the lyrics really make sense can like very different genres, for example trance like Tiesto or AvB where the main parts of the song are beat and melody with lyrics no more than almost random words and classic rock like Queen or Rolling Stones where the songs are very melodic and with great lyrics.

As for rap vs. rock... I'll make an analogy. Metal : rap :: rap : pop I'm guessing one group bashes the other because of perceived competition. E.g. rappers see pop music as a threat because it's played more often in clubs and at parties and more people tend to like it. Metalheads see rap as a threat because, well, in high schools if you're a metalhead, you get pissed off at gangsta rappers (which usually are more popular) because you associate their higher status and popularity with listening to rap (and not the other way, that is, listening to rap because you're more popular and it's the in genre now). (this part is pure speculation and is just an example to illustrate my point).

Basically you want your group to have higher status (e.g. have the music played more often or have more people listen to it) and so you put down the other group.

Or it could just be snobbery... E.g. "Look at me, I'm drinking 1978 Shiraz. Am I not cooler than that fratboy chugging Budweiser through a hose?"

[toasty]

Rap doesn't suck because its popular, it sucks because theres no beat and the lyrics suck and tend to be about nothing more than whores, guns, drugs, idiotic spending, and drug addicted whores spending idiotic amounts on guns.

Give me Metal any day... Epic Metal, Speed Metal, Power Metal, Heavy Metal, even Death Metal from time to time.

I mean, how many other genres of music can tell an entire epic saga with nothing but their music?

I have friends, well versed in metal, who disagree with you.

And what do you mean no beat? Rap is, last I checked beat + fast lyrics. There is a BEAT, its just BORING. Most of the time at least. That's one of the reasons I really enjoy the metal I listen to, stuff like Power Metal has a much bigger focus on the melody. Oh sure, its Metal, and thus rhythm focused, but darnit, some bands have damn good melodies.

[Weiser_Cain]

Rap beats boring? Oh please.

[bosssmiley]

I, personally, like both. I also believe that Valhalla favors rap over metal, as the second has become largely pretentious and most power metal tells a story. However, rap is about monetary gain, driving down your enemies and hearing the lamentation of their women.

So, the round shields on the side of longships were spinners? :smallconfused:

The Rock-vs-Rap war is a false dichotomy anyway (as the Blessed Aerosmith & Run DMC long ago taught us). Both must combine like some musical MechaShiva to crush the serpentine blasphemy that is manufactured pop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv2qLOiioPc) (Bill was right).

[RationalGoblin]

Definitely Rap. I care more about lyrics than instruments, and Metal tends to focus heavily on instruments (unbelievably long and boring solos) while Hip-Hop is obviously all about the rapping/singing. And also I ****ing hate screaming. It's the worst form of 'singing' ever invented (well...maybe not worse than whatever it is Soulja boy is doing these days).

Oh, and it seems that unlike the few other rap fans around I listen to mainstream and gangsta rap. I don't really care that its violent or whatever. If I enjoy listening to something, I listen to it and that's it. It's just music, man.





I'm actually one of these people. It's not that I don't like metal (I've heard a lot of very good stuff on numerous occasions that people identified as either speed or death metal) but it just seems that anything I come across is, well, screaming. The closest I even get to metal in my collection is Deep Purple and Rammstein and both are better identified as, well, hard rock if you don't get into the whole sub-genre mess. Except maybe KoRn but I only have something like a half-dozen tracks by them.



*head asplode*


Argh! It's! not! just! screaming!

Would you call this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoJSmP4Oj0E) screaming??? Or this? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpI0Ejm0K1I)

No, of course not. Maybe a bit unintelligible, but it's better then some singers, and the singer is foreign, so it's justified.

To be fair, Warpfire, I agree with you on the solos. Unless they're really good, I find them pointless and boring.

As for hip-hop giving a message, and metal not doing so, I disagree. Plenty of metal songs give the message of "Life is an awesome adventure! LIVE IT."

Again, I like some hip-hop, especially the song "Handlebars" by the Flobots. That, I can clearly see, gives a message, tells a story, and is fun to listen to. It even has a fantastic beat!

But you can't just dismiss most metal as "just screaming" and be surprised when metal fans dismiss hip-hop as "violent gangster crap".

[DraPrime]

Plenty of Metal does that, but I have found it is pretty bad for that. Maybe because Metal fans so quickly rally around "technicality" to justify their tastes.


I don't really enjoy metal. To be honest, I find it more focused on the technical skill of the musician, and less on the passion in the music. Don't get me wrong, I recognize how talented they are, it just doesn't do anything for me. I prefer raw emotion and raw music.


You two, just confused prog metal with all of metal. Granted, some bands do get their popularity through pure technical skill (I'm looking at YOU Brain Drill!), but a huge amount of metal isn't about the technicality. Venom, is a classic band with lots of fans, even though their playing is sloppy and rather unskilled. Black Sabbath, the oldest metal band, has pretty much no technical skill. No one says "OMG LOOK AT IOMMI'S CRAZY SOLOS!!!" Certainly the man has had good solos, but in the end Sabbath has rather simplistic music which continues to gather a huge amount of metal fans to this day. The same could be said for Motorhead. And two decades after the rise of these two classic bands, you get some black metal bands releasing albums like Transylvanian Hunger, which are also very...simple, and yet are considered to be damn classic.

Then, let me bring in the whole damn doom metal subgenre. This is a fairly big subgenre. You've got straight up doom, funeral doom, drone, sludge, stoner, and death doom as subtypes. It's a whole type of metal based around slowness. I don't think there's really man technically skilled bands in this genre, yet it still has its fair amount of fans.

Honestly, I could keep listing bands on and on that disprove this idea that metalheads care more about the technicality than the emotion and feel of the music. Just know, that while it does happen that a band gets successful on pure technicality, it is hardly a rule, so saying that that's a major component of metal is pure absurdity.


Definitely Rap. I care more about lyrics than instruments, and Metal tends to focus heavily on instruments (unbelievably long and boring solos) while Hip-Hop is obviously all about the rapping/singing. And also I ****ing hate screaming. It's the worst form of 'singing' ever invented (well...maybe not worse than whatever it is Soulja boy is doing these days)

Ok, this is just an annoying stereotype that continues to exist for no reason other than people ignorance. Tell me, does this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRV1Zgjmiks), this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctNLkD8S7_U), this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEiv0Wse9us), this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABJrkSvWEU0), this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwwvS4bx-mk), this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO4LyKd-Hws), this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfoDh1XL2wo), this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KDO_yCYcuU), this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qdcl67H1Jw), this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ96oEwYrE8), this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyfIQ7s14wc), this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYZzncX-mIQ), this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjV8SHjHvHk), this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3clLf-L9oSo), this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2i_Z24p2uw), this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca2HvFxFYPw), this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncN5To9sWzk), this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8oUKsEr1Bw), this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Spu7FWs8ik), this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv-Nn-yNpAQ), or this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AQ_gD7NxaM) contain screaming?

edit: Ah, it seems the poster above me had the same idea. But seriously people, get this through your heads. Metal is not just screaming. Come on now, say it with me now. METAL IS NOT SCREAMING. Now, I'm going to say it in extra big words, just to make sure that you don't forget.

Metal is not just screaming.

[Tawmis]

Heh - this is what happens when you get people passionate about their music. But it's true. Not all metal is screaming. I posted some links - including two links directly to songs in my post: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7577660&postcount=47

It's like saying "all rap is about 'bitches, hos, and violence.'" That is not the case at all. There's some interest, non violent rap out there. But the majority of it that gets radio play does tend to be the more violent type of rap. Just like the majority of metal that seems to get air play, does tend to have it's fair share of "screaming."

But as with just about anything; if you dig a little more than just the surface, you will usually find beautiful things.

This goes with metal. This goes with rap. And I will even say, it's true for Country.

[ZeroNumerous]

Also, I don't like music that's oppressive (Bros before hoes? Really?) or music that I couldn't understand even if I spoke the language.

So you don't listen to any industrial, power or death metal. Either way: If you don't like the phrase "Bros before hoes" then you don't quite understand what the phrase is about. Bros are people whom stand behind you even if you're in dire straits, while hoes are people who will abandon you when you stop being popular/rich/what-have-you. There is no gender-based oppression involved as women can be bros and men can be hoes. It's about placing those who've been with you through thick-and-thin over the many mayfly friendships that come with popularity.


So, the round shields on the side of longships were spinners? :smallconfused:

If you think they were anything else then you be trippin' son.


I mean, how many other genres of music can tell an entire epic saga with nothing but their music?

So, you know. I was listening to the original epic music: Classical. And I thought: "Wow. Even this isn't as pretentious as Rhapsody of Fire."

Telling an epic story is cool an all, except when everyone is doing it and none of them are any good.


This goes with metal. This goes with rap. And I will even say, it's true for Country.

I'll say now that country is more about storytelling while someone plays a guitar in the background. Most country actually has more in common with rap than pretentious epic metal. They both tell stories, they both speak from personal experiences and they're both mostly talking in front of a beat and/or a guitar.

[averagejoe]

I mean, how many other genres of music can tell an entire epic saga with nothing but their music?

Jazz.

...

I'm not sure why there has to be a "vs." I mean, it's not like the genres are mutually exclusive, or if you have to choose one. I have yet to find an entire genre that brings absolutely nothing to the table as far as music goes. Far from it.

I can't say I'm a huge fan of either. I mean, I like stuff as far as Sabbath and the Zep, but I don't even know if that's still what people mean when they say, "metal." Most of my hip hop experience comes from the music videos Will Smith used to do for his movies and Samurai Champloo. So naturally I think it is an epic and awesome genre.

[thorgrim29]

Hip-hop has not only created itself from Soul, Funk and R&B, creating the very actions of Rapping and DJing in the process, it has even changed the face of rock music through bands like Sublime, Rage Against the Machine, The Red Hot Chili Peppers, Korn (and unfortunately, everything that sprang from them). It doesn't seem like many new techniques are coming out of Metal and changing other genres of music. Though there is a new resurgence of technical guitar skills, I don't know that it owes itself to Metal.


And metal created itself from hard rock (and classical music), that created itself from rock & roll, that created itself from jazz, your point is?

Plus I have to disagree with the no innovation comment. What makes metal so fun is that what is metal is constantly changing, in flux. I agree that death metal growling can be more then a bit tiresome if it's all there is, but used sparingly (for example by Amorphis in Skyforger), it becomes another instrument, complementing the singing. And at least it's the singer's actual voice, not a tuneless shout processed by a computer until it becomes "cool" (looking at you T-Pain). Another example would be the use of folk inspired music and instruments, of the marriage of metal and symphony started with metallica with S&M and taken many steps further by Nightwish (at least in Dark Passion Play, not familiar with the rest as I can't stand Tarja's voice) and Within Temptation to name only two.

Also , I consider Rage to be a rap sung over metal music, so there's some (awesome) interplay

[The Extinguisher]

You two, just confused prog metal with all of metal. Granted, some bands do get their popularity through pure technical skill (I'm looking at YOU Brain Drill!), but a huge amount of metal isn't about the technicality. Venom, is a classic band with lots of fans, even though their playing is sloppy and rather unskilled. Black Sabbath, the oldest metal band, has pretty much no technical skill. No one says "OMG LOOK AT IOMMI'S CRAZY SOLOS!!!" Certainly the man has had good solos, but in the end Sabbath has rather simplistic music which continues to gather a huge amount of metal fans to this day. The same could be said for Motorhead. And two decades after the rise of these two classic bands, you get some black metal bands releasing albums like Transylvanian Hunger, which are also very...simple, and yet are considered to be damn classic.


To be fair, the majority of my interaction with metal comes from a co-worker who's a real jerk about music, and I hear nothing but "your music sucks because they aren't talented" from him. So it's kind of soured my opinion.

[DraPrime]

To be fair, the majority of my interaction with metal comes from a co-worker who's a real jerk about music, and I hear nothing but "your music sucks because they aren't talented" from him. So it's kind of soured my opinion.

Ah, well then that's just that person's problem. Just remember that his view doesn't really represent the views of the larger metal community.

[Cespenar]

My only possible contribution to this discussion (as if) is to say that even though I avidly enjoy some metal subgenres (progressive, power and symphonic, mostly), growl vocals (or whatever their name is) are one of the rare things in life that makes me want to beat the singer in question to death with a sock full of quarters.

[Weimann]

I like metal more, if I had to choose. However, I don't hate hip-hop. It has it's moments, for sure.

[derfos]

When it comes to metal vs. rap, I really don't see why there should be a war. They should both be allied to combat pop. Both metal and rap have experienced their fair share of enemies from the mainstream. And lets not forget that in both genres the crappy talentless bands are the ones that make it to the mainstream while the good ones just lag behind.

Just my 2 cents

[JabberwockySupafly]

When it comes to metal vs. rap, I really don't see why there should be a war. They should both be allied to combat pop. Both metal and rap have experienced their fair share of enemies from the mainstream. And lets not forget that in both genres the crappy talentless bands are the ones that make it to the mainstream while the good ones just lag behind.

Just my 2 cents

You. my friend, are about to recieve an incredible honour. This is the first time in my entire 15 year career of surfing the web I have ever done this....


QFT

[Fnip the Psion]

Hello all.
I personally have never experienced rap that I enjoyed, so please PM me some youtube links to rap that you think are enjoyable.

P.S. And please dont have it be too explicit.

P.P.S. I agree with Cespenar that "Screamathons" are absolutely horrible.

[Frozen_Feet]

Don't really know a person who hates metal but loves rap. Can't really say I know the opposite sort either - people I do know often listen to a variety of genres, and we agree or disagree on what music is good wholly different grounds. That said, I don't know a lot of good rap or hip-hop music, because I don't listen to those genres - that means the really good stuff will elude me, and whatever gets to the radio is likely to suck in my opinion, regardless of genre.

I mostly listen to metal and hard rock, and their varied sub-genres - songs from other genres are often odd ones out. However, I've discovered recently that even those off-genre share traits with metal songs I like - they just are deeper than special effects, lyrics or even instruments played.

[Warpfire]

Please point out to me where all I said all metal is screaming.

All I said is that I dislike screaming, which is a technique that many bands use. This includes a number of metal bands. Thus, I mentioned it when talking about what I disliked about metal.

Damn, people.

[Decoy Lockbox]

Maybe my big problem with metal is that I'm not looking for a story, I'm looking for a message. If I want a story, I'll read a book. Music provides an aspect to a message that cannot be gained through prose. Are their conscious (non-hate fueled) metal groups with intelligible lyrics? Maybe I can get into those.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure metal just is not for you. Its almost exclusively about the music over the lyrics. Sometimes I don't even know why some of the bands write lyrics, primarily the more gore-oriented death metal bands. I suppose having lyrics can make a song more catchy, but if the vocals are incomprehensible, whats the point, right? I'm still not convinced that the vocalist for Cryptopsy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1FivvPQIUY) is even reading the lyrics he wrote! Some bands try to have a message (primarily thrash groups), and its usually some sort of vaguely punkish anti-"the man" type of thing, which has been done to death imho. I do dig the more empowerment focused power metal groups. Virgin Steele did an album about personal empowerment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faI4OtKSozg) and the triumph of the human spirit over uncaring fate and capricious gods (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djkHtk_g-yo); you might dig it, as its scream-free, quite melodic and very positive.

One big thing to remember is that metal is "big", its bombastic and grandiose. So people who like more raw, stripped down fare will not like metal for the most part.


the marriage of metal and symphony started with metallica with S&M

This is just a pet-peeve of mine; Metallica did nothing of the sort. Therion put out their first fully Symphonic album "Theli" in 1996, three years before S&M, and are normally credited as the first symphonic metal group. They had been experimenting with symphonic elements in their earlier works (Theli was their 5th full-length album), but Theli was the first one that broke from their death metal roots. This isn't to say that S&M wasn't cool, but it wasn't revolutionary.


When it comes to metal vs. rap, I really don't see why there should be a war. They should both be allied to combat pop. Both metal and rap have experienced their fair share of enemies from the mainstream. And lets not forget that in both genres the crappy talentless bands are the ones that make it to the mainstream while the good ones just lag behind.

Just my 2 cents

This is somewhat my sentiment, but I feel that music is kept more pure when the idea of making money is off the table. It then becomes art for it's own sake. For example, one of my favorite bands, Darkthrone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvjntkR8s-U), is composed of a school teacher and a mailman from Norway. Their music is known worldwide and they have a large following. Another favorite band, Sigh (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQNUSHXXzH0&feature=related), is fronted by a dude who does videogame music for a living. They are also quite well-known (at least from a metal perspective), doing occasional world tours and such.

[JaxGaret]

There is no metal vs. rap war.

The true war is metal vs. indie.

[DraPrime]

One big thing to remember is that metal is "big", its bombastic and grandiose. So people who like more raw, stripped down fare will not like metal for the most part

A fair amount of black metal is very raw and stripped down. So people might like that...if they can get past the god awful production and vocals that many bands have.

[Decoy Lockbox]

A fair amount of black metal is very raw and stripped down. So people might like that...if they can get past the god awful production and vocals that many bands have.

Well I was attempting to use "raw and stripped down" as a euphamism for "a long haired dude singing about his feelings while playing an acoustic guitar". Though I suppose black metal is pretty much that. Except the emotion in question is misanthropic hatred. Also, the guitar is probably plugged in.

[skywalker]

I prefer rap, but I don't particularly hate metal. I mean, certain subgenres, to be sure, but overall? No. I'm a bit more open-minded than that. Most people who like metal hate rap because, dare I say, rap is the primary "mainstream" format, at the moment. At least, it is in some parts of America (which is, let's face it, where world trends in music tend to come from).

[Hannes]

Of course there are avid Metal haters in the Rap community. Or maybe not rap, just "I'm 20-ish and listen to what they put in my way on MTV and radio" community. Part of it is because of the people who listen to metal. Mostly long hair, higher chance of valuing intelligence etc.

[Whoracle]

[...]I'm not sure why there has to be a "vs." I mean, it's not like the genres are mutually exclusive,[...]

In my experience it's rather a "vs." between the fan blocks. Most (pop) rap fans (around here at least) tend to be drooling little dip**** without regard for other persons values, personal items or dignity, let alone their own.

While most metalheads around here tend to be drunk, at least they're going to leave you alone and party however you may like.

Execptions (ranging to both the "really nice" and "even more sh***y" extremes) exist in both genres' fanbase, the broader parts of rap fans are unpleasant.

[Kris Strife]

Yeah, little late to this, I know, with regards to the 'Metal songs don't have messages like in rap', thats some 100% Weapons Grade Bullonium. War Pigs and Believer by Ozzy Osbourne/Black Sabbath (not sure exactly when they started being listed as seperate groups), Manowar's Die for Metal and many others all have messages to them. Usually much more positive than what I hear coming from rap songs.

On Technical ability: Yeah, I'd rather hear a musician performing an intricate, fast paced solo or song, than hear someone take other people's work, mix around the music, breaking it up or repeating it, make nothing but a rythmic bass thumping or even make noises with their mouths while someone else speaks more or less in rythym. Sorry, but I prefer to go against the de-evolution of society.

Again, not saying all rap songs are like this, I've heard some that aren't, but the vast majority coming out now are. I also dislike the metal songs where it sounds like rather than get a singer, they just chuck a bunch of gravel in a blender and put it on high or where the words are completely unintelligible because the singer apparently swallowed a whole cactus, then gargled with vinegar.

Edit: That said, feel free to listen to what ever floats your boat. Just giving my personal view on the matter.

[DraPrime]

Yeah, little late to this, I know, with regards to the 'Metal songs don't have messages like in rap', thats some 100% Weapons Grade Bullonium. War Pigs and Believer by Ozzy Osbourne/Black Sabbath (not sure exactly when they started being listed as seperate groups), Manowar's Die for Metal and many others all have messages to them. Usually much more positive than what I hear coming from rap songs.

Ozzy became seperate from Black Sabbath in 1979. He then went off and started his solo career, which was entirely separate of Black Sabbath. War Pigs was written (not by him) while he was in Black Sabbath. I think Believer was made by him during his solo career.

[Kris Strife]

Ozzy became seperate from Black Sabbath in 1979. He then went off and started his solo career, which was entirely separate of Black Sabbath. War Pigs was written (not by him) while he was in Black Sabbath. I think Believer was made by him during his solo career.

Ah, thanks. I know I could have Googled or wiki'd that, but its not something that comes up very often or something that was all that pressing a need for me to know.

[DraPrime]

Ah, thanks. I know I could have Googled or wiki'd that, but its not something that comes up very often or something that was all that pressing a need for me to know.

Well then, regardless of how pressing it was, you have been educated. You're welcome :smallamused:

[pita]

Part of it is because of the people who listen to metal. Mostly long hair, higher chance of valuing intelligence etc.

....
Can I make stabs through the computer?
The only form of music more intelligent than other forms of music is songs about physics and math. Please do not give me that bullsh** about people who like something "value intelligence" more. That's like saying that people who read non-fantasy are more intelligent than those who read fantasy.
Don't be elitist. Please.
Unless you're me. Because, really, I am awesome and everyone else should know it.

[Rhydeble]

....
Can I make stabs through the computer?
The only form of music more intelligent than other forms of music is songs about physics and math. Please do not give me that bullsh** about people who like something "value intelligence" more. That's like saying that people who read non-fantasy are more intelligent than those who read fantasy.
Don't be elitist. Please.
Unless you're me. Because, really, I am awesome and everyone else should know it.

I can only but geuss that that "metal is mostly listened to by people who value intelligence" thing is because it is not mainstream. Sorry to say, but most of the human population just listens to what the TV and radio feeds them, searching beyond these genre's for something you really like generally requires a basic amount of intelligence, thus, the average metal listener will be more intelligent then the average pop/hiphop listener. That is not to say that there aren't any stupid people who like metal, altough if you remove everyone who ever shopped at hot topic, you'd probably get only smart people.

remember, stereotyping might not be 100% correct, but it certainly is a useful (although often either under or over valued) tool.

[Kris Strife]

Well then, regardless of how pressing it was, you have been educated. You're welcome :smallamused:

Well, that I learned something is all that matters. I'm now at three new things since midnight and have met my goal for the day. :smallbiggrin:

[Faulty]

There's doom metal, like St. Vitus. It has generally understandable lyrics, with a slow and mournful tune.

There's power metal, which is fast (but usually not unintelligibly fast), with epic stories that are part of the entire song. Blind Guardian is an example of this.

There's black metal, like Emperor, a genre that is fast, a bit unintelligible (at least in my experience) and is, yeah, kinda angry, if I remember correctly. I don't listen to it much.

A lot of Sludge Doom is fast, there is plenty of slow or not-so-epic Power Metal, and there is a lot of very slow BM.


As for hip-hop giving a message, and metal not doing so, I disagree. Plenty of metal songs give the message of "Life is an awesome adventure! LIVE IT."

Most of my experience with the "life affirming" songs is actually not so great. As entertaining as "The Art of Partying" et al. is, it's not particularly intellectual or enriching. The whole long hair/head banging/beer drinking thing is, honestly, kinda lame, and often produces the same cliquish shenanigans a lot of music genre related sub-cultures do. Metal does a fantastic job of professing individuality and then taking on a conformist standard. Not to mention the hyper-masculinity that is not just off-putting to many women and some men, but can get kinda sexist.


You two, just confused prog metal with all of metal. Granted, some bands do get their popularity through pure technical skill (I'm looking at YOU Brain Drill!), but a huge amount of metal isn't about the technicality. Venom, is a classic band with lots of fans, even though their playing is sloppy and rather unskilled. Black Sabbath, the oldest metal band, has pretty much no technical skill. No one says "OMG LOOK AT IOMMI'S CRAZY SOLOS!!!" Certainly the man has had good solos, but in the end Sabbath has rather simplistic music which continues to gather a huge amount of metal fans to this day. The same could be said for Motorhead. And two decades after the rise of these two classic bands, you get some black metal bands releasing albums like Transylvanian Hunger, which are also very...simple, and yet are considered to be damn classic.

Then, let me bring in the whole damn doom metal subgenre. This is a fairly big subgenre. You've got straight up doom, funeral doom, drone, sludge, stoner, and death doom as subtypes. It's a whole type of metal based around slowness. I don't think there's really man technically skilled bands in this genre, yet it still has its fair amount of fans.

Honestly, I could keep listing bands on and on that disprove this idea that metalheads care more about the technicality than the emotion and feel of the music. Just know, that while it does happen that a band gets successful on pure technicality, it is hardly a rule, so saying that that's a major component of metal is pure absurdity.

At one point I had 150 gigs of Metal on my computer, and spent a lot of time talking about, listening to and exploring Metal music. A fair bit of Sludge Doom, Thrash, Death, Prog, Viking and Heavy Metal, as well as some Grind and Metalcore, can get very technical, and a lot of people rally around that stuff. It's why boring bands like Necrophagist and Dream Theater have fans. I'm not saying all Metal is technical, but it is often made by talented musicians with technical prowess who use that (listen to Darkthrone's first album, they are perfectly capable of technical DM). To say that all Metal would be technical would be false, just as saying all Metal is fast, slow, angry, sad, happy, loud or involves screaming would be, but it is a trend amongst Metal music and Metal fans.


Part of it is because of the people who listen to metal. Mostly long hair, higher chance of valuing intelligence etc.

Metal has some of the dumbest lyrics and most close minded fans on the freaking planet. I call shenanigans on the "valuing intelligence" thing. A lot of people who are very bright are drawn to Metal, but as a genre it's no more encouraging of intelligence than a lot of other genres.


I'm not saying all Metal is stupid. I'm just saying the genre and its fans have a lot of flaws. The genre also has a lot of gems, a lot of song writing and musical talent, a lot of good lyrics, a lot of intelligence, a lot of heart, and a lot of smart fans. But it's a mixed bag and acting like it's a thinking person's music is just as silly as saying it banging on guitars while shrieking unintelligably about Satan.

[DraPrime]

Most of my experience with the "life affirming" songs is actually not so great. As entertaining as "The Art of Partying" et al. is, it's not particularly intellectual or enriching. The whole long hair/head banging/beer drinking thing is, honestly, kinda lame, and often produces the same cliquish shenanigans a lot of music genre related sub-cultures do. Metal does a fantastic job of professing individuality and then taking on a conformist standard. Not to mention the hyper-masculinity that is not just off-putting to many women and some men, but can get kinda sexist.

I've never found much sexism within metal. I usually find that fans want more women to be in metal. Rarely will you hear the criticism "this band sucks because it has a female singer" or something along those lines.

[Faulty]

I've never found much sexism within metal. I usually find that fans want more women to be in metal. Rarely will you hear the criticism "this band sucks because it has a female singer" or something along those lines.

There's a different between implicit and explicit sexism. Explicit sexism is hating a band because it's got a girl in it. Implicit sexism is stuff like hyper-masculinity, songs/album art/band names that involve violence against women/rape/sexism, mediocre female musicians/vocalists being overrated merely because they're women (*cough* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Gossow)), or female members of bands being objectified or used for sex appeal. That stuff is all over Metal.

[DraPrime]

There's a different between implicit and explicit sexism. Explicit sexism is hating a band because it's got a girl in it. Implicit sexism is stuff like hyper-masculinity, songs/album art/band names that involve violence against women/rape/sexism, mediocre female musicians/vocalists being overrated merely because they're women (*cough* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Gossow)), or female members of bands being objectified or used for sex appeal. That stuff is all over Metal.

Female band members being liked for their looks is nothing new. This happens with both genders, in all sorts of professions. It simply happens because people like attractive people. It's that simple.

[TheSummoner]

Not like rap is any better. Metal may not be the most female-friendly genre out there, but nothing objectifies women like rap does.

[Hannes]

Sorry for the flamebait, but I should have specified I wasn't talking about the whole world but the situation as it is here, in Estonia. Also, metal fans tend to be less aggressive (:smalltongue:). Why? Well, walking outside at night and passing a bunch of rap fans can make the adrenalin rush. Why? Because there's a 50% chance they will gang on you and beat you up. Metal fans however probably won't do that since they have better things to do etc, although they might look scarier :smalltongue:

[Warpfire]

Sorry for the flamebait, but I should have specified I wasn't talking about the whole world but the situation as it is here, in Estonia. Also, metal fans tend to be less aggressive (:smalltongue:). Why? Well, walking outside at night and passing a bunch of rap fans can make the adrenalin rush. Why? Because there's a 50% chance they will gang on you and beat you up. Metal fans however probably won't do that since they have better things to do etc, although they might look scarier :smalltongue:

It sounds like you're talking about 'thug' culture more than hip-hop fans. And while obviously pretty much all thugs are rap fans, the reverse isn't necessarily true.

[DraPrime]

There's a different between implicit and explicit sexism. Explicit sexism is hating a band because it's got a girl in it. Implicit sexism is stuff like hyper-masculinity, songs/album art/band names that involve violence against women/rape/sexism, mediocre female musicians/vocalists being overrated merely because they're women (*cough* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Gossow)), or female members of bands being objectified or used for sex appeal. That stuff is all over Metal.

Ah, I forgot to address the issue of violence against women. That shows very little bias against women. It's usually done for shock effect more than anything else.

As for hyper-masculinity, many men enjoy being manly. That's all there is to it. That's why Manowar is popular.

[Hannes]

It sounds like you're talking about 'thug' culture more than hip-hop fans. And while obviously pretty much all thugs are rap fans, the reverse isn't necessarily true.

Unless, you know, you live in Eastern Europe.

[Warpfire]

Unless, you know, you live in Eastern Europe.

So there's not a single person in Eastern Europe that listens to hip-hop and doesn't go around beating people up/acting like they beat people up? :smallconfused:

[Faulty]

Female band members being liked for their looks is nothing new. This happens with both genders, in all sorts of professions. It simply happens because people like attractive people. It's that simple.

There's a difference between finding someone attractive and this (http://www.ape****.org/images/featured/sigh.090322.jpg).


Not like rap is any better. Metal may not be the most female-friendly genre out there, but nothing objectifies women like rap does.

I never said Rap didn't.


Ah, I forgot to address the issue of violence against women. That shows very little bias against women. It's usually done for shock effect more than anything else.

It shows a lot of bias against women. It shows that women are marginalized and disregarded enough to be treated like objects for rape and abuse in songs. Songs like Dismember's "Skin Her Alive" are sexist, no ifs, ands or buts.


As for hyper-masculinity, many men enjoy being manly. That's all there is to it. That's why Manowar is popular.

Manowar shouldn't be popular. Their lyrics and image are terrible. Hyper-masculinity has always been predicated on homophobia and mysoginy and it's unexcusable in any situation.

[DraPrime]

It shows a lot of bias against women. It shows that women are marginalized and disregarded enough to be treated like objects for rape and abuse in songs. Songs like Dismember's "Skin Her Alive" are sexist, no ifs, ands or buts.



Manowar shouldn't be popular. Their lyrics and image are terrible. Hyper-masculinity has always been predicated on homophobia and mysoginy and it's unexcusable in any situation.

It shows that violence against women is considered shocking.

As for Manowar, their lyrics and image are hilarious, and entertaining in how absurd they are. The amount of enthusiasm that Manowar puts into this image is simply amusing. As for this predicating on homophobia and misogyny...I don't really remember there being much homophobia in their music. Misogyny, ok yeah they do treat women like sex objects. But Manowar is really the most absurd of the absurd hyper-masculine bands. No one else really goes that far. Really, it seems like you're trying too hard to find some sort of bias in this music.

[derfos]

I think you'll be hard pressed to find any contemporary music that isn't gender biased since contemporary culture is gender biased. Plus, it just so happens that both Metal and Rap cater to certain subcultures of society that are even more gender-biased. If you want to be really nitpicky, it is true that 99% of metal performers are men, but so are 99% of rappers. And if you look at the other end of the spectrum, pop-rock is often misandrous in it's performers and lyrics.

Why? because gender bias is part of our culture, because 'men' and 'women' like different things and expect different experiences from listening to music. You can choose to rebel against these stereotypes and avoid listening to music with gender bias and to that I say 'good for you'. Or, you can do what I do: Accept these biases exist and are not about to change and enjoy the music for the music.

[Faulty]

It shows that violence against women is considered shocking.

Whether or not it's shocking doesn't make it acceptable or fail to make it sexist.

[TheSummoner]

I don't see why violence against women is any worse than violence against anyone else...

When its for shock value... when they're not actually going out and hurting people or telling their listeners to do the same, its harmless.

[Faulty]

It is not harmless. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture) Violence against women because they are women (which is how the phrase is used generally) is worse than many other acts of violence because it is a mysoginistic and hate based crime.

[derfos]

It is not harmless. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture) Violence against women because they are women (which is how the phrase is used generally) is worse than many other acts of violence because it is a mysoginistic and hate based crime.

I think you have your cause and effect backwards here. "Rape Culture", that article you cited, talks about a culture in which violence against women is encouraged. If Metal is part of this 'rape culture' (which it might very well be, especially looking at the groupie movement of the 80s), then the problem doesn't lie within metal itself, but rather in the society to which metal belongs. I don't don't like when people turn all Tipper Gore on me and try to argue that metal is a cause of the misogyny in our society. It isn't. It's a result. Dimebag's music didn't cause his death, and Manowar's appearance does not cause a hypermasculinity in teens. These teens who take Manowar seriously were already nuts, as was Nathan Gale.

So sure, metal is gender biased. What isn't? The music and lyrical themes of our era only reflect our social policies, so let's not waste time complaining about Cannibal Corpse's "****ed with a knife", because boycotting a genre of music won't do anything to change the social standards embedded in our society.

And as a last comment: Misogyny means hate of women. So saying that something is both misogynistic and hate based is kind of redundant. Unless you are implying that crimes of misogyny are worse than other hate based crime, which I hope you are not.

[Faulty]

I think you have your cause and effect backwards here. "Rape Culture", that article you cited, talks about a culture in which violence against women is encouraged. If Metal is part of this 'rape culture' (which it might very well be, especially looking at the groupie movement of the 80s), then the problem doesn't lie within metal itself, but rather in the society to which metal belongs. I don't don't like when people turn all Tipper Gore on me and try to argue that metal is a cause of the misogyny in our society. It isn't. It's a result. Dimebag's music didn't cause his death, and Manowar's appearance does not cause a hypermasculinity in teens. These teens who take Manowar seriously were already nuts, as was Nathan Gale.

Metal music like that is a part of rape culture, and helps perpetuate it. Thus it is guilty. While it is not the sole contributor, obviously, as a contributor nonetheless it must be eliminated.


So sure, metal is gender biased. What isn't? The music and lyrical themes of our era only reflect our social policies, so let's not waste time complaining about Cannibal Corpse's "****ed with a knife", because boycotting a genre of music won't do anything to change the social standards embedded in our society.

A band with songs like CC's should not be listened to. It's part of the problem. And as bad as objectification is, "****ed With a Knife" is way worse than, say, selling a product with sex appeal. Misogynistic music should be boycotted. I'd like to see bands like CC crash and burn, and as such don't listen to their music. They suck anyway. :< I can find plenty of non-misogynistic Metal...


And as a last comment: Misogyny means hate of women. So saying that something is both misogynistic and hate based is kind of redundant. Unless you are implying that crimes of misogyny are worse than other hate based crime, which I hope you are not.

Point taken. :smalltongue:

[Decoy Lockbox]

Y'all seem to be falling into the whole "rape is worse than murder" thing. I fail to see how "****** with a knife" is more reprehensible than any of their other disgusting song topics.

This thread has gotten way off topic, and I'm out.

[SDF]

A band with songs like CC's should not be listened to.

Of course, but for me it's mostly because they are one of the worst things I've listened to musically... ever.

Anyway, I propose we get back to the musical merits of the genres. Rape culture and sexual discrimination aren't exactly forum appropriate subjects, nor that relevant to the topic at hand.

[Faulty]

Screaming actually takes skill.

The More You Know!

[Krade]

Screaming actually takes skill.

The More You Know!

This. This SO hard. I don't even like screaming lyrics and I agree with this.

I was actually talking to my brother recently about this issue of screaming and how I feel that if your lyrics aren't going to be comprehensible, then you shouldn't bother having them. His response? "It's not meant to be understood. The screaming lyrics are actually a whole other instrument." Boy, that sure shut me up...

The point is, it's a part of the music. The words don't matter nearly so much as the sound. You don't have to like it. There's plenty of other music out there to listen to.

As far as rap/hip hop/whatever the hell you wanna call it, I'm sure that there is some out there that I might enjoy, but I'm bad enough at finding new metal (or any other genre, for that matter) that I enjoy. For the most part, I don't enjoy it. By far, my BIGGEST problem with it is how acceptable it seems to be for it to completely crib a popular rock song of its main riff and repeat it over and over and over and over and over and over throughout the duration of their "songs." Therefore, the time I spend searching out new music to listen to is generally spent looking for more metal.

My stance on the issue, in a nutshell, is thus: Forget bickering and arguing about which one means more or is more popular or has more frilly edges or sequins (that one goes, inexorably, to Rock:smalltongue:). The "war" is unwinnable, and it will remain so until all the proponents of one or both sides are dead and all records of their existence expunged from the annals of history. It can happen no sooner than that and no debate could possibly change its nature. So even though I'll be the first one to point out that I enjoy arguing for the sake of argument, such an obviously pointless and endless debate leaves me wanting for more satisfying fare.

Edit: Presently, my favorite bands include Apocalyptica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalyptica), Sonata Arctica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonata_arctica), Squirrel Nut Zippers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squirrel_Nut_Zippers), and System of a Down (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_of_a_down).

[Hannes]

So there's not a single person in Eastern Europe that listens to hip-hop and doesn't go around beating people up/acting like they beat people up? :smallconfused:

I didn't mean there isn't a single person and you know it well, because, well, you can't really say everybody does it. Unless you're talking about stuff such as being made out of cells. I'm just saying the very very very very large majority (which just happens to be people ranging from the age of 12-30 at the very least) sees this as normal.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Rap? Hip-hop? what's that? I've never heard about it.

[ClericPreston]

Metal music like that is a part of rape culture, and helps perpetuate it. Thus it is guilty. While it is not the sole contributor, obviously, as a contributor nonetheless it must be eliminated.



A band with songs like CC's should not be listened to. It's part of the problem. And as bad as objectification is, "****ed With a Knife" is way worse than, say, selling a product with sex appeal. Misogynistic music should be boycotted. I'd like to see bands like CC crash and burn, and as such don't listen to their music. They suck anyway. :< I can find plenty of non-misogynistic Metal...



:
I personally see nothing wrong with Cannibal Corpse. They are very tongue-in-cheek, and not at all serious. It is all part of their gimmick. Yes, misogyny is a problem in some metal bands, but you also run into the same problem in the hip-hop world where women are nothing but gold-digging whores good only for dumping a load into. That mentality disgusts me no matter what genre of music you like.

[Rettu Skcollob]

I'm a rap/hip-hop guy, but if you've ever argued with someone over their musical tastes chances are you were being a complete jerk. I may dislike metal, but I'm not going to hound others for enjoying whatever music they like.

Dipping my toe into the discussion, I'd say that a lot of the mainstream rap and metal is really quite vapid, but that's likely to be the main source of a non-fan's knowledge of the relevant genre.

[TheSummoner]

That entire "Rape Culture" article screams scapegoat to me. Blame the music, not the rapist kind of thing...

If the band is seriously advocating violence (woman specific or otherwise) or rape or anything of that sort, then theres probably something wrong with them. But if its tongue-in-cheek, or purposely over the top for shock and comedic effect, then only someone who already had problems would take it seriously... essentiually the kind of person who shouldn't be allowed to get their hands on anything more mature than Spongebob as it is.

Remember, music doesn't kill people... dangerous mental illnesses do.

[xPANCAKEx]

i like a lot of hip-hop
i dislike a lot of metal

thats not to say the vast majority of both genres are terrible, and that most heavily lauded artists/bands are over-hyped

listen to between the buried and me
listen to doctor octagon

[Tawmis]

It's why boring bands like Necrophagist and Dream Theater have fans.


WTF? BORING? Dream Theater? BORING? WTF? Dream Theater is perhaps one of the most talented metal bands out there.



Metal has some of the dumbest lyrics and most close minded fans on the freaking planet. I call shenanigans on the "valuing intelligence" thing. A lot of people who are very bright are drawn to Metal, but as a genre it's no more encouraging of intelligence than a lot of other genres.


I called up just a sample - JUST A TINY sample that would counter this - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7577660&postcount=47

And there is much, much, much more. I would give you that 80's Hair Band was pretty much "dumb" lyrics - but it was a fun time during music where it wasn't about intelligence. It was about a time in the 80's where everything was light hearted and fun. Metal was not alone in these types of lyrics during the 80's. I think EVERY brand of music was back then. (With the exception of Country, which until recently has not changed much).



I'm not saying all Metal is stupid. I'm just saying the genre and its fans have a lot of flaws.

WHAT???? I think ALL forms of music have their fair share of fans with flaws... Because, well... we're HUMAN... and we're BORN with flaws. It's like saying most of the folks who listen to country are alcholics... or most of the folks who listen to rap are drug users... or... Well, the list goes on and on and on.


There's a different between implicit and explicit sexism. Explicit sexism is hating a band because it's got a girl in it. Implicit sexism is stuff like hyper-masculinity, songs/album art/band names that involve violence against women/rape/sexism, mediocre female musicians/vocalists being overrated merely because they're women (*cough* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Gossow)), or female members of bands being objectified or used for sex appeal. That stuff is all over Metal.

I am putting on my boots. Because it's getting thick with bullchips...



Manowar shouldn't be popular. Their lyrics and image are terrible. Hyper-masculinity has always been predicated on homophobia and mysoginy and it's unexcusable in any situation.

OMG. So tell me - do you watch shows like CSI, or movies like SE7EN...? Because all those cop shows have things where women get raped. Where women are victims. There's plenty of tv shows about homophobia. About misogyny. But the difference is - seeing what is merely ENTERTAINMENT and what is REAL. If you listen to a CD and take what it says to be true - then YOU have a problem. If you take it about some guys singing some songs, doing their thing - and not believing what they are saying are words YOU should live by - then you have entertainment.


Metal music like that is a part of rape culture, and helps perpetuate it. Thus it is guilty. While it is not the sole contributor, obviously, as a contributor nonetheless it must be eliminated.


Yes. And I suppose Metal can be blamed for Satanism? Along with it, Dungeons & Dragons. So in a sense, along with it, Order of the Stick, which clearly is inspired by D&D. OMG! Faulty! You should stop reading OOTS! And make a movement to eliminate it!


That entire "Rape Culture" article screams scapegoat to me. Blame the music, not the rapist kind of thing...

If the band is seriously advocating violence (woman specific or otherwise) or rape or anything of that sort, then theres probably something wrong with them. But if its tongue-in-cheek, or purposely over the top for shock and comedic effect, then only someone who already had problems would take it seriously... essentiually the kind of person who shouldn't be allowed to get their hands on anything more mature than Spongebob as it is.

Remember, music doesn't kill people... dangerous mental illnesses do.

Couldn't agree more. And I should add, this goes for ALL forms of music. Just like RAP can NOT be blamed for Gang Violence.

[thorgrim29]

Hey, I resent the comment made that Dream Theater are boring. Well, their lyrics most of the time are, sure, but the music itself is anything but. And, sorry about S&M, I was not aware of that other band.

[Klose_the_Sith]

This thread is a terribly silly place :smallconfused:

I might as well, however, interject my personal opinions

Firstly - I will listen to almost nothing but metal. Yes, it's close-minded. Yes, I am often fairly elitist (but not based on music tastes, just when dealing with idiots).

In spite of that I have some respect for bits and pieces of Rap (Hip-Hop just sounds gay. Fact.) because believe it or not I found my first poetic style lyrics in there. It was that which actually drove me towards my love of language, so that today I can really enjoy literature from most facets. Additionally, my attempts at writing metal have all shown some serious elements from the rap that I listened to early on in life.

I also have a fair bit of respect for most of the Playground rap-heads.

HOWEVER - Most Rap/RnB/Whatever fans that I've seen/known/heard about are absolute ***** and should have their faces beaten in with a mallet shaped like a dragons phallus.

The simple fact though, is that I would be amazed to see them represented here - those types of people can barely operate a computer, let alone figure out how to find it onto decent websites like this, they'll just sit around trolling youtube without actually knowing what trolling means, thinking that they're the funniest thing ever to happen.

These types of people truly hate metal. I've been almost killed purely because I was only wearing black by these types of people. They are not cool. At all.

Some other points I would make cause I can:

1. Metalheads don't hate rap because of it's association with popularity/the popular clique (or, I haven't known anyone who does). If we hate those people then it's almost always simply because they're a terrible person, occasionally because they're a moron etc.

2. If you have a problem with Cannibal Corpse lyrics then I've got some news for you - it's nothing new. My beloved nutjob of a mother will happily tell stories about the utterly filthy poems from Ye Olde England that she did a university course on whilst getting her PHD in literature. It's only meant to be shocking to people who aren't familiar with the genre ... which it is. Death Metal is elitist by nature, because it's supposed to be the ****ing metal elite.

Cannibal Corpse are a band who get so much hate because they're something most people aren't and will never be comfortable with, but they get a load of exposure anyway. I'd also point out that they write ****ing brilliant riffs, especially on the bass and that their drumming can be utterly delicious. Not to mention I like Corpsegrinder's vocals and can understand him almost perfectly. They're just a goofy, silly, fun band with some solid musicianship behind them.

3. Sexism in metal? Pish. If I hate on Angela Gossow then it isn't because she's a woman and thus inferior - it's because she's been churning out meh vocals for Arch Enemy and I'm just not interested in that style of boredom inducing fail. Do I make arbitrary sexual comments about her? Yes. Would I do that if she wasn't a woman? Less likely, still possible.

I've made sexual comments about my furniture. Sure I'll talk about her having nice tits which might be claimed as because she's a woman, but if she wasn't a woman then having tits wouldn't be a positive thing and would consequently elicit more comments, probably about sex change operations.

There's hyper masculinity all over the place, but that doesn't mean that my love of it's charming idiocy means I think wimmins are my dogs and should be crawling about only the kitchen providing sammiches and nudity on command. It is again, purely fun and stupid music. I enjoy metal because I enjoy it - the day I can no longer say that is the day that self hate kicks in and I start an emo band.

tl;dr - metal is good and my genre of choice, but I have respect for pretty much every playgrounder anywhere so don't stress my general dislike of rap :smallsmile:

[Sayn]

Well, that was a rather interesting read. A bit silly most of the time, but interesting nonetheless.

I listen mostly to metal, and probably always will, but I also listen to a ton of other things. Rap and hip-hop isn't among them. Why? It's simply not for me. Even the artists you claim are better for one reason or another doesn't appeal to me.

The thing is, I just don't enjoy 'music' which is mostly a beat or a string of synthetic sounds repeated over and over in the background while the singer either 'sings' or simply tries to talk as fast as he or she can. It's boring, and while I don't really judge people for listening to that kind of music anymore I just can't bring myself to liking it. I do enjoy bands like RATM, though. And the Handlebars song from Flobots. Both of which uses more 'traditional' instruments, although a bit more extensively in RATM's case.

The only people I get annoyed and sometimes even angry at are the ones who have listened to maybe one or two songs/bands, and thus assumes that all metal is only screaming/growling or long solos. I don't like rap or hip-hop, but I've at least tried them more than a few times.

Something else that I've found is this: rap and hip-hop have far fewer 'fanatic' followers (in terms of percentage, of course, since rap and hip-hop have more fans these days) than metal. Metalheads tend to be more into their music, and more protective of it. Almost as if the music needs defending from harsh words, or it might disappear into a cave and refuse to come out. Or something. Most people who enjoys rap and hip-hop tends to be fairly regular people, with no extensive interest in music. They just want something to listen to, and chose those genres. That's it. Though, most of the more 'fanatical' fans of rap and hip-hop that I've met have been complete idiots and generally annoying and loud.

Most bands and artists, of both genres, really don't care about this little 'war' that their fans have started up. They even take inspiration from each other and stuff like that. So stop fighting, and let people listen to what they like. To each his own, and all that crap.

[TheSummoner]

Most bands and artists, of both genres, really don't care about this little 'war' that their fans have started up. They even take inspiration from each other and stuff like that. So stop fighting, and let people listen to what they like. To each his own, and all that crap.

Whats the point in having differences if we can't fight eachother over them? :smallbiggrin:

[Exeson]

Why bother choosing between the two?

Rapcore (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2zqAmP0DpM) bitches! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lLjYQH8mgg&feature=related) :smalltongue: (okok, nu metal slightly there as well, but hey, that is what rapcore evolved into)

Nah, but really I prefer metal but I am very partial to some well thought out, smoothly constructed and well spat rap. I feel that sometimes rap can say things metal can't and has a very different energy to it. Usually I listen to metal, and prefer it but sometimes I just throw on an Eminem album and vibe for a bit.

[pita]

Whats the point in having differences if we can't fight eachother over them? :smallbiggrin:

This is the point: You can't murder someone through a computer screen yet. And no argument is worthwhile without any murderin. I like using my axe. It murders.

[DraPrime]

Why bother choosing between the two?

Rapcore (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2zqAmP0DpM) bitches! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lLjYQH8mgg&feature=related) :smalltongue: (okok, nu metal slightly there as well, but hey, that is what rapcore evolved into)

Nah, but really I prefer metal but I am very partial to some well thought out, smoothly constructed and well spat rap. I feel that sometimes rap can say things metal can't and has a very different energy to it. Usually I listen to metal, and prefer it but sometimes I just throw on an Eminem album and vibe for a bit.

That is...an abomination of a genre. :smalleek:

[toasty]

That is...an abomination of a genre. :smalleek:

I actually like those two songs. However, I have to agree. POD had one good album (Satellite) and TFK got about three times better when they stopped doing all that rapcore stuff, it just took them two albums to find their groove.

[thorgrim29]

As far as I know, POD have exactly two good songs, Youth of the Nation and Boom!.

[Xuincherguixe]

I'm not going to say that there isn't sexism in Heavy Metal. That would be stupid. But the overt misogyny that's present in Gangster rap isn't nearly as prevalent.

I think that Faulty that you're looking to be offended. At the very least, you are being prejudiced. You strike me as someone who would find Judas Priest (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AWoc7g7PyM) homophobic.

[Faulty]

I'm not going to say that there isn't sexism in Heavy Metal. That would be stupid. But the overt misogyny that's present in Gangster rap isn't nearly as prevalent.

I think that Faulty that you're looking to be offended. At the very least, you are being prejudiced. You strike me as someone who would find Judas Priest (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AWoc7g7PyM) homophobic.

Hardly. There's nothing not misogynistic about songs like "Skin Her Alive" or the aforementioned CC song. If the songs were stuff like "Skin Jews Alive" or "Stabbing Homos With a Knife" or some such, I'd hope that it'd have fewer listeners. It's equally unacceptable when women are the target. Despite the general lack of intelligence behind most violent lyrics, I'm OK with them in my music. I don't have a distaste for dark lyrics either. Skinless' Trample the Weak, Hurdle the Dead is one of my favorite albums, and makes the list with a load of other Metal albums, such as Wildhoney by Tiamat, Imaginary Sonicscape by Sigh, By Inheritence by Artillery, Back to Times of Splendor by Disillusion, V: Halmstad by Shining, The Black Halo by Kamelot, and so on. I've listened to more Metal than I can remember from every subgenre within it, as well as a fair share of stuff like Grindcore, Metalcore and Half-Thrash. I know the music inside and out. That doesn't mean I find misogyny either acceptable or necessary.

I know that Rob is gay, nice try. :smallamused: I don't know how anyone could find those lyrics homophobic anyway.

I don't deny misogyny in Hip-Hop mind you. And neutral or particularly female friendly music can be found in both genres (see Dessa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWJzbCWT0_4), or Wolves in the Throne Room (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07XF5uKZlgw), who have described themselves as feminists).

[derfos]

I personally don't really care about lyrics, I just go for the music. I'm not about to miss out on a great song because the lyrics are offensive. It just so happens that most songs with offensive lyrics are crap anyway (Cannibal Corpse, most NSBM, etc.). However, Cryptopsy's Defenestration (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6MYNceWgzc) talks about murdering a little girl by throwing her out the window, but the song is still awesome so I still listen to it.

I would like to add that The Black Halo, Imaginary Sonicscape and Wildhoney are all awesome albums. This has nothing to do with the argument, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

[Faulty]

Wildhoney is one of my top 10. Seriously. Love that album.

I count misogynistic/homophobic/racist lyrics against the quality of a song is the thing. Quite obviously. I feel like it normalizes those attitudes, and that that's not OK. If you like Death Metal or Grind you eventually have to deal with just plain violent lyrics, which as a result don't bug me. Watchmaker's Kill. ****ing. Everyone. is my favorite Grind album, after all. Though I guess you could listen to nothing but experimental prog or tech Death like Neglected Fields (little known Latvian band, LOOK THEM UP, seriously) or Cynic and get away with a DM love without violent lyrics.

[toasty]

As far as I know, POD have exactly two good songs, Youth of the Nation and Boom!.

Satellite, Set it Off, Eternal and Strength of my Life are also decent, imo at least.

[Klose_the_Sith]

I personally don't really care about lyrics, I just go for the music. I'm not about to miss out on a great song because the lyrics are offensive. It just so happens that most songs with offensive lyrics are crap anyway (Cannibal Corpse, most NSBM, etc.).

I am so sick of having to repeatedly say this IRL and online :smallsigh:

If you think Cannibal Corpse are crap then that's your problem, because you obviously know **** all about death metal. There's a reason that they've held their place and controversy isn't it.

So many other bands get undeserved respect, yet because Cannibal Corpse have an intentionally brutish approach they cop so much ****. Basically any tech-death band will sound like ****, yet they still get more respect just because people look at generic lyrics rather then gore-infested lyrics and assume that that implies talent. It's almost as bad as how incredibly overhyped Metallica's lyrics are, just because they decided to employ over-used and trite poetic devices instead of going for the 'cliched' metal approach.

Rarr :smallmad:

[skywalker]

Satellite, Set it Off, Eternal and Strength of my Life are also decent, imo at least.

I would like to add "Alive" to this list. At least, from what I recall of the song. It ain't bad.

[derfos]

Wildhoney is one of my top 10. Seriously. Love that album.

I count misogynistic/homophobic/racist lyrics against the quality of a song is the thing. Quite obviously. I feel like it normalizes those attitudes, and that that's not OK. If you like Death Metal or Grind you eventually have to deal with just plain violent lyrics, which as a result don't bug me. Watchmaker's Kill. ****ing. Everyone. is my favorite Grind album, after all. Though I guess you could listen to nothing but experimental prog or tech Death like Neglected Fields (little known Latvian band, LOOK THEM UP, seriously) or Cynic and get away with a DM love without violent lyrics.

It seems to me you have a dichotomy here:
(a) Say 'screw it' and listen to anything without caring about lyrics (my position)
(b) Say 'wrong' and stop listening to anything with lyrics that encourage wrongful actions.

And here's my problem: If you argue option (b), which you seem to be doing, then all lyrics that encourage wrongful action should be immediately off your playlist, including the ones that encourage violence, since violence is wrong. So as much as you like "Kill. ****ing. Everyone", you shouldn't be listening to it, as it is wrong and encourages mass murder. You seem to be drawing some sort of imaginary line between which violence is acceptable and which isn't, when in fact, no violence is acceptable.

I understand that women are a vulnerable group in society and that violence driven by hate against women (or Jews, or any other vulnerable group) is wrong. I also understand that you want to boycott bands that encourage these wrong actions. What I don't understand is how you are OK with bands that encourage other wrong actions.

---
Side note: I only recently discovered Tiamat's Wildhoney and I've since been wondering where this album was all my life; have you listened to the new Swallow the Sun? (no violence as far as I can tell)

---
EDIT: Klose, I apologize. I don't think Cannibal Corpse is crap, I just think that if I'm going to listen to death metal, there are many better choices. I will rephrase and call CC 'Sub-standard death metal'. Better? Since you insist on calling Cannibal Corpse 'tech death', I will tell you some tech death bands that I can enjoy more than CC: Nile, Cryptopsy, Arsis, Quo Vadis, Origin (on a good day), Necrophagist, The Faceless (not great, but a million times better than Cannibal Corpse).

I personally think CC should stay as what it was: A 1-hit-wonder type band with Hammer Smashed Face.

[Klose_the_Sith]

EDIT: Klose, I apologize. I don't think Cannibal Corpse is crap, I just think that if I'm going to listen to death metal, there are many better choices. I will rephrase and call CC 'Sub-standard death metal'. Better? Since you insist on calling Cannibal Corpse 'tech death', I will tell you some tech death bands that I can enjoy more than CC: Nile, Cryptopsy, Arsis, Quo Vadis, Origin (on a good day), Necrophagist, The Faceless (not great, but a million times better than Cannibal Corpse).

I personally think CC should stay as what it was: A 1-hit-wonder type band with Hammer Smashed Face.

I didn't say that they were tech death, I said that there were loads of tech death bands who get love when they shouldn't, as tech death is 99% ****. Considering the fact that you only brought up one good band in your list (Nile) and one of the worst metal bands I've ever heard (Necrophagist) pardon me if I don't take you too seriously.

You call them a one hit wonder because ... you're not a fan of them? You only know one song? They're a serious underground band with serious underground fans and like any metal band fitting that criteria, positive opinions of different albums and songs will vary wildly.

I'm not that big a fan of some of their stuff, as recorded with Mr. Barnes

However, I would propose a series of counter-arguments, all from their newest album Evisceration Plague released in 2009.

To Decompose (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcLgwMm7s88)
Scalding Hail (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM61j4V71us&feature=related)
Shatter Their Bones (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHDxijMsWK0&feature=related)
Priests of Sodom (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg8coOn7z00&feature=related)
Skull Fragment Armor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX2Cc2r6oMA)

[Faulty]

I am so sick of having to repeatedly say this IRL and online :smallsigh:

If you think Cannibal Corpse are crap then that's your problem, because you obviously know **** all about death metal. There's a reason that they've held their place and controversy isn't it.

So many other bands get undeserved respect, yet because Cannibal Corpse have an intentionally brutish approach they cop so much ****. Basically any tech-death band will sound like ****, yet they still get more respect just because people look at generic lyrics rather then gore-infested lyrics and assume that that implies talent. It's almost as bad as how incredibly overhyped Metallica's lyrics are, just because they decided to employ over-used and trite poetic devices instead of going for the 'cliched' metal approach.

Rarr :smallmad:

The reason they've held their place is because they're bad and mainstream enough that people with comparably bad or at least uncultivated tastes come in contact with them, go all "OMG DEATH METAL" because they've never heard anything like it, and then listen to it until it either gains nostalgia value or they never develop their tastes beyond relative mediocrity.

They're not explicitly terrible like a lot of bands (Abigail Williams or Blood Runs Black, yech), but they're certainly substandard as derfos said.


It seems to me you have a dichotomy here:
(a) Say 'screw it' and listen to anything without caring about lyrics (my position)
(b) Say 'wrong' and stop listening to anything with lyrics that encourage wrongful actions.

And here's my problem: If you argue option (b), which you seem to be doing, then all lyrics that encourage wrongful action should be immediately off your playlist, including the ones that encourage violence, since violence is wrong. So as much as you like "Kill. ****ing. Everyone", you shouldn't be listening to it, as it is wrong and encourages mass murder. You seem to be drawing some sort of imaginary line between which violence is acceptable and which isn't, when in fact, no violence is acceptable.

I understand that women are a vulnerable group in society and that violence driven by hate against women (or Jews, or any other vulnerable group) is wrong. I also understand that you want to boycott bands that encourage these wrong actions. What I don't understand is how you are OK with bands that encourage other wrong actions.

I'm not really saying (b) is the thing. I think misogynistic or racist lyrics contribute to rape or racist culture, but I think generally violent lyrics are vague enough to not be particularly detrimental. It might result in slightly more aggressive individuals if they listen to it exclusively, but then again, people who play a lot of violent video games tend to be slightly more aggressive and function perfectly fine. I think "hateful" (meaning here lyrics that target Othered groups such as women or racial minorities) lyrics are more detrimental, because of the effect they have in perpetuating a culture that, say, objectifies and marginalizes women. It's all about consequence for me, not just an intrinsic aspect of violent lyrics.


Side note: I only recently discovered Tiamat's Wildhoney and I've since been wondering where this album was all my life; have you listened to the new Swallow the Sun? (no violence as far as I can tell)

That happens to me all the time. There's so much good music both coming out and in the past, in so many genres, that it's hard to keep up with it all. I have not heard the new StS, I had no idea they had one out (lol same name as twilight book). I LOVE that band, so thanks. They are amazing at crafting atmosphere. Hope is just wow.

[Klose_the_Sith]

The reason they've held their place is because they're bad and mainstream enough that people with comparably bad or at least uncultivated tastes come in contact with them, go all "OMG DEATH METAL" because they've never heard anything like it, and then listen to it until it either gains nostalgia value or they never develop their tastes beyond relative mediocrity.

You're basing this off of what? They're utter beasts at writing and playing dark, evil, brutal music but you decide to claim that there is literally no merit to them whatsoever because they have exposure? The controversies meant that they gained notoriety, but they became iconic for entirely different reasons.

Personally I still cannot see for the life of me why they're the whipping boys of the death metal world, they've actually written interesting songs post their shock-era in the 90's lyrics wise and they've always been writing brilliant riffs which few other death metal bands can attain unto.

Maybe you haven't really looked into them in the past? :smallconfused:

[Faulty]

I can barely remember what of their material I have heard other than Kill. I've heard individual songs and I think I might have listened to some full albums other than Kill but I might not have. I found it immensely forgettable. It has nothing to do with exposure, that's just my personal explanation for their popularity. I can't complain about mainstream music, I listen to Lady GaGa.

[Klose_the_Sith]

I can barely remember what of their material I have heard other than Kill. I've heard individual songs and I think I might have listened to some full albums other than Kill but I might not have. I found it immensely forgettable. It has nothing to do with exposure, that's just my personal explanation for their popularity. I can't complain about mainstream music, I listen to Lady GaGa.

Well there will never be any accounting for taste, will there? Personally I'd rather impale my mother with a rusty halberd and feast on the entrails then listen to Lady GaGa, but that's only because I reject any music which doesn't appeal to my desire for speed, what I call the interest factor and solid riffs.

Look at some of the tracks I linked for whats-his-face just a few posts up? From their newest album and everything bla bla bla ...

EDIT: Why would you need to use a spiteful explanation for why any music is popular? I accept that the stuff I hate is liked purely because people enjoy the music, except for the occasional elitist bull****. Sure those people will know **** all about why it's ****, but still ...

[Faulty]

I'll listen to them later. Too tired to seriously absorb new music and be able to make any kind of judgement call about it reasonably.

There really is no accounting for taste. I find Metallica's early stuff largely boring yet a lot of people who are deep into Thrash love it. Eh, there's no explaining it I guess.


EDIT: Why would you need to use a spiteful explanation for why any music is popular? I accept that the stuff I hate is liked purely because people enjoy the music, except for the occasional elitist bull****. Sure those people will know **** all about why it's ****, but still ...

That's just what I see. I think a lot of people just haven't been exposed to the deeper, fantastic examples of many genres, due to lack of time or interest or luck, so I don't really have any problem with it. I just think CC is bad. lol

[Klose_the_Sith]

I'll listen to them later. Too tired to seriously absorb new music and be able to make any kind of judgement call about it reasonably.

There really is no accounting for taste. I find Metallica's early stuff largely boring yet a lot of people who are deep into Thrash love it. Eh, there's no explaining it I guess.

Actually, I'd say the opposite - people who are deep into thrash think Metallica are just meh. They're a band primarily supported by 13/15 year old fanboys who will nevertheless one day turn 16.


That's just what I see. I think a lot of people just haven't been exposed to the deeper, fantastic examples of many genres, due to lack of time or interest or luck, so I don't really have any problem with it. I just think CC is bad. lol

See where? Have you had a large enough sample to make a scientific judgement? Can you put your hand on your heart and your **** in an elephant then claim that they are unambiguously bad and that yours is the only explanation?

They appeal especially to bassists, because they have among the best basslines ever. Literally. Not only is that overlaid with awesome riffs, but the bass is something over which I would disown any children of mine over (as in, if they don't like it then they can make their own dinners ... on the street).

[Faulty]

I would suggest you listen to Blood Red Throne if you like Death Metal bass lines. I trust what I felt in the past, but my knowledge could probably use a refresher. I'm not really attatched to that opinion or Death Metal like that to really care to. I could have missed some awesome album, I'll admit, but what I heard did not impress me.

Maybe I just don't know any really Thrash fans then? I never got deep enough into it to totally differentiate, despite my love of Artillery.

[Klose_the_Sith]

I would suggest you listen to Blood Red Throne if you like Death Metal bass lines. I trust what I felt in the past, but my knowledge could probably use a refresher. I'm not really attatched to that opinion or Death Metal like that to really care to. I could have missed some awesome album, I'll admit, but what I heard did not impress me.

(Weird, I was just reading something about those guys today and thought I might as well check them out, but wound up instead listening to Amorphis while zoning)

Well, they write really cool riffs and wonderful bass lines, least in what I've heard. Some parts of what they've done annoy me (the generic drumming and intentionally horrible mixing they used to employ) but on the whole they're like any other death metal band, albeit one that did enough right and had good enough timing to become iconic. They have their good and bad and shouldn't be dismissed outright or mindlessly worshipped (it creates Lars Ulrich syndrome).


Maybe I just don't know any really Thrash fans then? I never got deep enough into it to totally differentiate, despite my love of Artillery.

As someone who can still remember turning 16, that's pretty much it. There are plenty of older fans who still like it for various reasons and it's not bad but it isn't worshipped that rampantly by any thrash fans I know ... anymore.

We've all been through a crazy Metallica phase and then come out (more or less) on the other side. We still listen to thrash, but they aren't the paragon which they're so often made out to be (because of their perpetual fanbase).

EDIT: /goesofftobed

[The Extinguisher]

I've recently begun listening to hardcore rap and all that. Mostly because once you start looking at it like satire it becomes hilarious.

Looking at something like "Candy Shop" as ironic isn't even that hard if you watch the video.

In this respect, it easily beats out metal.

[DraPrime]

Actually, I'd say the opposite - people who are deep into thrash think Metallica are just meh. They're a band primarily supported by 13/15 year old fanboys who will nevertheless one day turn 16.

I beg to differ. I am a huge thrash fan that knows plenty about the genre, and I still think their first albums are some of the finest stuff put out in the genre.

[Klose_the_Sith]

I beg to differ. I am a huge thrash fan that knows plenty about the genre, and I still think their first albums are some of the finest stuff put out in the genre.

I said primarily, there are still plenty of deeper in fans who acknowledge and or respect them (as I believe I stated in a later post) but that doesn't change the fact that most of the Metallica fans you'll meet are kids enjoying babies first metal band.

[DraPrime]

I said primarily, there are still plenty of deeper in fans who acknowledge and or respect them (as I believe I stated in a later post) but that doesn't change the fact that most of the Metallica fans you'll meet are kids enjoying babies first metal band.

Yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that their first four albums were some excellent thrash, loved by many thrash fans.

[derfos]

Every thrash fan I know loves Metallica, which I don't get, since thrash is about riffs and Metallica has an embarassing amount of 1 riff songs. Megadeth is a much better example of what riffy songs should be.

As to the violent vs. misogynistic lyrics, I guess I understand where you stand, Faulty. I don't exactly agree, but at least I get it, and that's where I'm going to leave that.

Back to Cannibal Corpse: I've listened to Tomb of the Mutilated, and I thought it was a pretty good death metal album, with the first 3 tracks being especially good (I'm tired of censoring song names, so I'll just say the track numbers). Then a while later I listened to Bloodthirst and couldn't finish it because of how dull it was. The new album was not that bad, but like most music, it wasn't worth the time I spent listening to it.

Klose, you're right, 99% of music is crap. That 1% that's left is what's worth listening to. But when something from that 99% becomes the band that represents a genre in the mainstream, then I'm not gonna give them any props for it.

As to the whole Necrophagist issue, I will agree that they're overrated. I do however have a soft spot for 'To Breathe in a Casket'. Still, I didn't say they were great, I just said they were better than CC. And I stand by that point.

[Xuincherguixe]

Well clearly I misunderstood you here Faulty.

Honestly, sometimes I feel the same way. Most of this stuff is clearly ridiculous and shouldn't be taken seriously at all. But every so often I come across a song that makes me wonder if the person who wrote it was some kind of sociopath.

Can't really take it seriously when the band is advocating raping nuns.

All that being said, in a lot of ways Heavy Metal and Rap are very similar. I don't especially like Rap, but that doesn't mean I'm blind.


I had the thought that someone needs to start up a death rap band. They could have Glocks made by Dwarves and pray to Satan for new rims. (Now THAT would be a fun train wreck to watch)

[derfos]

Nu metal was the attempt of combining the aggressiveness of metal with the catchiness of rap. Some people like them, I would personally rather listen to straight up metal or straight up rap than the combination of the two. It seems to me that some things combine well with metal when they have a tendency towards the intense (like classical), while kinds of music that are more laid back (funk, hip-hop) can't really mix with metal (not that these things haven't been tried).

---
Anyway, I was a pretty big fan of StS's Hope (that was the album that got me into them), and Plague of Butterflies was really good too. But this new album leaves them all behind.

[Otogi]

Speaking of which, do you guys think that Heavy Mithril (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeavyMithril) or something to that effect can apply to hip-hop? Would Sci-fi work better, or does glam rock have dibs on that? Is there a sub genre, like Post Apocalyptic or Space Opera, that would work better?

[Klose_the_Sith]

Every thrash fan I know loves Metallica, which I don't get, since thrash is about riffs and Metallica has an embarassing amount of 1 riff songs. Megadeth is a much better example of what riffy songs should be.

They probably just haven't matured enough, but I wouldn't say Thrash is about riffs - rather it's about lyrics screaming around your face, blast beats crushing round your pants, bass thumping and driving it home until the solo melts away what little opposition has survived the assault until that stage.


Back to Cannibal Corpse: I've listened to Tomb of the Mutilated, and I thought it was a pretty good death metal album, with the first 3 tracks being especially good (I'm tired of censoring song names, so I'll just say the track numbers). Then a while later I listened to Bloodthirst and couldn't finish it because of how dull it was. The new album was not that bad, but like most music, it wasn't worth the time I spent listening to it.

If you didn't like Evisceration plague then I have no time for you. The man who's influenced me most is my bass teacher and in his words 'Get a ****ing good riff going. Vocals can be good, drums can be excellent, the tech can be excellent and the lyrics soul rendingly phenomenal, but until you have a good riff **** off home. If you like the riff and the song itself isn't that bad then you have something listenable, regardless.'

That's pretty much why I like Cannibal Corpse so much, their riffs are nothing short of fantastic. Same goes for Bolt Thrower, Suffocation, Megadeth, Ensiferum, Slayer, The Nightwatchman (something not metal in Klose's listenings? MADNESS!) or pretty much all my music. Some's in there for different reasons, but I know the overriding solidity of it.

Besides, seriously, Evisceration Plague is one of the best Death Metal albums I've ever heard, especially because it didn't take itself seriously. It kind of follows the trend of horror movie sequels actually, the way Cannibal Corpse have progressed to lol-worthy lyrics and themes.


Klose, you're right, 99% of music is crap. That 1% that's left is what's worth listening to. But when something from that 99% becomes the band that represents a genre in the mainstream, then I'm not gonna give them any props for it.

Then you misunderstood me, I do not give probs to CC just because every bloody child thinks of them as the boogeymen of the music world - rather I pointed out that within the Metal culture itself they've become icons of their genre and not in a bad way - Nathan Explosion was based on Corpsegrinder for a reason, after all :smallwink:


As to the whole Necrophagist issue, I will agree that they're overrated. I do however have a soft spot for 'To Breathe in a Casket'. Still, I didn't say they were great, I just said they were better than CC. And I stand by that point.

To come back into a statement previously mentioned by me in this post, without good riffs you are ****. Necrophagist do not have good riffs. Their playing is pant-wrenchingly ****-crushingly mind-blowing but they still don't write the riffs that I'd need before listening to them becomes fun.

Woo for riff oriented metal fans :smallbiggrin:

Incidentally - Though Nu-Metal seems to largely be a dud, Disturbed are a fun band who have enough good riffs to be worthwhile ^^ (Although they have committed the sin of recycling that doesn't mean that they don't have a number of solid ones in their favour).

[DraPrime]

They probably just haven't matured enough, but I wouldn't say Thrash is about riffs - rather it's about lyrics screaming around your face, blast beats crushing round your pants, bass thumping and driving it home until the solo melts away what little opposition has survived the assault until that stage.

Just wanted to point out that virtually no thrash has blast beats. You have been metal-ducated.



If you didn't like Evisceration plague then I have no time for you. The man who's influenced me most is my bass teacher and in his words 'Get a ****ing good riff going. Vocals can be good, drums can be excellent, the tech can be excellent and the lyrics soul rendingly phenomenal, but until you have a good riff **** off home. If you like the riff and the song itself isn't that bad then you have something listenable, regardless.'

That's pretty much why I like Cannibal Corpse so much, their riffs are nothing short of fantastic. Same goes for Bolt Thrower, Suffocation, Megadeth, Ensiferum, Slayer, The Nightwatchman (something not metal in Klose's listenings? MADNESS!) or pretty much all my music. Some's in there for different reasons, but I know the overriding solidity of it.

Besides, seriously, Evisceration Plague is one of the best Death Metal albums I've ever heard, especially because it didn't take itself seriously. It kind of follows the trend of horror movie sequels actually, the way Cannibal Corpse have progressed to lol-worthy lyrics and themes.

The issue with Evisceration Plague, is that it just sounds a lot like CC's other albums, and is pretty much just stock death metal. It's not bad, it's just unimaginative. It doesn't deserve the title of "one of the best best death metal albums" simply because it didn't innovate enough, or really at all variate from CC's other works. A truly amazing album must be brilliant in style, not just a lot of fun.

[Krade]

So... back to the main question: "Is the Metal vs. Rap War one sided?"

Yes. Yes it is. (http://www.70000tons.com/)

QATC:smalltongue:

[Faulty]

Nu metal was the attempt of combining the aggressiveness of metal with the catchiness of rap. Some people like them, I would personally rather listen to straight up metal or straight up rap than the combination of the two. It seems to me that some things combine well with metal when they have a tendency towards the intense (like classical), while kinds of music that are more laid back (funk, hip-hop) can't really mix with metal (not that these things haven't been tried).

Hip-Hop isn't necessarily more laid back. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfo-EGDBEAY) I have no idea why, but I feel like Hip-Hop and Metal are really incompatible, despite my general appreciation of genre fusion. Can't quite say why.


Anyway, I was a pretty big fan of StS's Hope (that was the album that got me into them), and Plague of Butterflies was really good too. But this new album leaves them all behind.

Thanks.

[derfos]

So... back to the main question: "Is the Metal vs. Rap War one sided?"

Yes. Yes it is. (http://www.70000tons.com/)

QATC:smalltongue:

That video just made my day.

---
In the thrash discussion, I have to confess I'm not that big into thrash. I never liked Metallica, I like very little Slayer (Angel of Death is still one of the best songs ever) and the Teutonic Thrash bands do little for me. I do, on the other hand, love Megadeth with a passion. I also really enjoy early Iced Earth and I love Warbringer. Why? I find that these bands understand that you don't have to lose all concept of melody to be aggressive. Either way, same rule applies to my death metal. Whether Necrophagist is good or not, I still find more intelligible melody in it than in Cannibal Corpse. I'm not saying CC is bad, but they do suffer from what I call an 'over-use of the palm-muted E string in a simple rhythm', (AKA the chug riff). I remember being at a Cannibal Corpse concert and half-way through I was wondering if they were playing the same song over and over again. Every song had the same format (fast guitar intro... rest of the instruments join... play the same riff for a minute or two... chuggy breakdown... back to the riff... end with a scream). The Faceless (A band that isn't really that good either) were opening for CC and outplayed them in every respect.

In the end, Cannibal Corpse is just the Metallica of death metal. Sure, they had their moments early on, and you could argue that they were innovative. But in the end, there are so many bands that can do it better that they really aren't worth my time. I'd rather just listen to Krisiun or Vader...

[Decoy Lockbox]

Hip-Hop isn't necessarily more laid back. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfo-EGDBEAY) I have no idea why, but I feel like Hip-Hop and Metal are really incompatible, despite my general appreciation of genre fusion. Can't quite say why.



Thanks.

So that cruise things sounds rather interesting...$700 bucks for four days at sea in the Caribbean plus an all you can hear metal sonic buffet? I'd say "sign me up", but I'm poor and in college.

I agree with you though, I can't imagine any combination of metal and hiphop that would "work". Something about the respective sounds just doesn't click.

[Faulty]

That video just made my day.

---
In the thrash discussion, I have to confess I'm not that big into thrash. I never liked Metallica, I like very little Slayer (Angel of Death is still one of the best songs ever) and the Teutonic Thrash bands do little for me. I do, on the other hand, love Megadeth with a passion. I also really enjoy early Iced Earth and I love Warbringer. Why? I find that these bands understand that you don't have to lose all concept of melody to be aggressive. Either way, same rule applies to my death metal. Whether Necrophagist is good or not, I still find more intelligible melody in it than in Cannibal Corpse. I'm not saying CC is bad, but they do suffer from what I call an 'over-use of the palm-muted E string in a simple rhythm', (AKA the chug riff). I remember being at a Cannibal Corpse concert and half-way through I was wondering if they were playing the same song over and over again. Every song had the same format (fast guitar intro... rest of the instruments join... play the same riff for a minute or two... chuggy breakdown... back to the riff... end with a scream). The Faceless (A band that isn't really that good either) were opening for CC and outplayed them in every respect.

In the end, Cannibal Corpse is just the Metallica of death metal. Sure, they had their moments early on, and you could argue that they were innovative. But in the end, there are so many bands that can do it better that they really aren't worth my time. I'd rather just listen to Krisiun or Vader...

The Faceless aren't too bad. At least their first album wasn't. Though I recall them being incredibly underwhelming when I saw them at a Summerslaughter show. Cattle Decapitation stole that show.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Just wanted to point out that virtually no thrash has blast beats. You have been metal-ducated.

I was too lazy to type out double kick abuse when blast beats sounds so much prettier, but it's true that they're rare.


The issue with Evisceration Plague, is that it just sounds a lot like CC's other albums, and is pretty much just stock death metal. It's not bad, it's just unimaginative. It doesn't deserve the title of "one of the best best death metal albums" simply because it didn't innovate enough, or really at all variate from CC's other works. A truly amazing album must be brilliant in style, not just a lot of fun.

So by writing way left field lyrics and creating the catchiest album that they could they were being unimaginative? By rejecting several typical trappings of the style it doesn't stand out from their other works?

Yes, large aspects of the sound was typical. That doesn't however make it stock death metal - stock death metal would have to be utterly typical with no distinguishing feature. Maybe you can't hear the difference, but I can clearly distinguish it from any other death metal album I've listened to.

I also query just what you mean by brilliant in style. That just sounds like an album that was flashy, with no real substance and thus wouldn't even be close to an amazing album. Style does not music make.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Metal does not interest me. Rap, given its... "unique" nature (500 WPM lol), does interest me. Also, the fact that I live in a teenage ghetto may influence my views somewhat.
As far as "war" goes, it is one-sided (based on my experience IRL, not with these forums), because no genres but rap tend to inspire the sort of hatred required for a war.
Also, this (http://web.sls.hw.ac.uk/North/Press%20releasesept.doc) implies that heavy metal tends to be correlated with lower self-esteem, work ethic, and outgoing-ness; but also with higher creativity, gentility, and ease. Rap correlates to higher self-esteem and outgoing nature.

Please ignore this post.

[Optimystik]

I like both, but am willing to admit that my taste for Rap/Hip-Hop ranges a bit wider than my taste for Metal. My favorite subgenre of metal would be Gothic - Lacuna Coil, Nightwish, Leaves' Eyes, Within Temptation, and of course our very own Evanescence.

Qualifier: by "Hip-Hop" I mean actual wordsmithing, as opposed to recycled Soulja Boy-esque McRap.

And for the Rap fans in the thread: If you had to pick one - Biggie or Tupac?

[derfos]

Metal does not interest me. Rap, given its... "unique" nature (500 WPM lol), does interest me. Also, the fact that I live in a teenage ghetto may influence my views somewhat.
As far as "war" goes, it is one-sided (based on my experience IRL, not with these forums), because no genres but rap tend to inspire the sort of hatred required for a war.
Also, this (http://web.sls.hw.ac.uk/North/Press%20releasesept.doc) implies that heavy metal tends to be correlated with lower self-esteem, work ethic, and outgoing-ness; but also with higher creativity, gentility, and ease. Rap correlates to higher self-esteem and outgoing nature.

Please ignore this post.

I would love to ignore this post, but my conscience won't let me. You just implied that metal lacks hatred... I beg to differ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_metal#Church_burnings). It's not something we're proud of (well, some people might be, but I'm not); but it definitely seems hateful to me. I understand that rap culture is often filled with violence, and that there is a hateful component to it as well, but I'm pretty sure NSBM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_black_metal) (National Socialist Black Metal) is as extreme as you get when it comes to hate. I'm not advocating these activities, just pointing out their existence.

The study is interesting, but not completely unexpected to me. In spite of the violent lyrics that are often portrayed in metal, the crowd heavy metal catered to has always been relatively calm people. I do, however, think that this has changed as of late with the break of punk-influenced metal into the mainstream (metalcore). This music has a completely different fan base, who, based on my experience, is much less "gentle and at ease". But in the end, this is just my personal experience...

[The Extinguisher]

I would love to ignore this post, but my conscience won't let me. You just implied that metal lacks hatred... I beg to differ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_metal#Church_burnings). It's not something we're proud of (well, some people might be, but I'm not); but it definitely seems hateful to me. I understand that rap culture is often filled with violence, and that there is a hateful component to it as well, but I'm pretty sure NSBM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_black_metal) (National Socialist Black Metal) is as extreme as you get when it comes to hate. I'm not advocating these activities, just pointing out their existence.

The study is interesting, but not completely unexpected to me. In spite of the violent lyrics that are often portrayed in metal, the crowd heavy metal catered to has always been relatively calm people. I do, however, think that this has changed as of late with the break of punk-influenced metal into the mainstream (metalcore). This music has a completely different fan base, who, based on my experience, is much less "gentle and at ease". But in the end, this is just my personal experience...

I think he meant hatred against.

[DraPrime]

So by writing way left field lyrics and creating the catchiest album that they could they were being unimaginative? By rejecting several typical trappings of the style it doesn't stand out from their other works?

Left field lyrics? As in the violent ones that have been in death metal ever since 1987? Yeah, blood and violence aren't at all "left field" within the death metal world. And what trappings are they rejecting? Evisceration Plague is just another CC album. That's it.


Yes, large aspects of the sound were typical. That doesn't however make it stock death metal - stock death metal would have to be utterly typical with no distinguishing feature. Maybe you can't hear the difference, but I can clearly distinguish it from any other death metal album I've listened to.

So, large aspects of the sound were typical. Thus the sound is largely generic. Generic pretty much equals stock, so CC is pretty much stock death metal. They still can kick ass, but they're stock.

I also query just what you mean by brilliant in style. That just sounds like an album that was flashy, with no real substance and thus wouldn't even be close to an amazing album. Style does not music make.[/QUOTE]

What I mean brilliant in style is that it's interesting, unique, new, and just overall sounds good.

You called Evisceration Plague one of the greatest death metal albums. I'm sorry, but a truly great album has to do something new. To be one of the best, you really have to stand out. While I did like Evisceration Plague, all it had going for it was the fact that it was fun. However, there are plenty of fun albums. In the end, all EP does is play it safe. No new thoughts. Nothing really interesting or imaginative. Just another CC album.

[Liffguard]

Just chiming in to say thanks to the guys discussing Tiamat's Wildhoney. It sounded interesting so I went and got it and really enjoyed it. So yeah, thanks.

[derfos]

Just chiming in to say thanks to the guys discussing Tiamat's Wildhoney. It sounded interesting so I went and got it and really enjoyed it. So yeah, thanks.

Glad to have helped :smallsmile:

[skywalker]

Metal does not interest me. Rap, given its... "unique" nature (500 WPM lol), does interest me. Also, the fact that I live in a teenage ghetto may influence my views somewhat.
As far as "war" goes, it is one-sided (based on my experience IRL, not with these forums), because no genres but rap tend to inspire the sort of hatred required for a war.
Also, this (http://web.sls.hw.ac.uk/North/Press%20releasesept.doc) implies that heavy metal tends to be correlated with lower self-esteem, work ethic, and outgoing-ness; but also with higher creativity, gentility, and ease. Rap correlates to higher self-esteem and outgoing nature.

This is interesting, actually. If the two genres do in fact correlate, it would make sense why one is selling like hotcakes compared to the other right now.


Qualifier: by "Hip-Hop" I mean actual wordsmithing, as opposed to recycled Soulja Boy-esque McRap.

Ah, Soulja Boy. The kids buy it, that's all that I can say.


And for the Rap fans in the thread: If you had to pick one - Biggie or Tupac?

Both were talented, both were at the top of the world when they died. Had they both lived, I think Biggie would have burned out faster. Tupac had a fire, he did an incredible amount of work, and was going directions nobody had ever gone before. He was a poet, a dreamer, etc.

Tupac is an entity. BIG was a better rapper, but Tupac is an entity. As a rap fan, I pick BIG. As a music fan, I pick 2pac.

[Optimystik]

Both were talented, both were at the top of the world when they died. Had they both lived, I think Biggie would have burned out faster. Tupac had a fire, he did an incredible amount of work, and was going directions nobody had ever gone before. He was a poet, a dreamer, etc.

Tupac is an entity. BIG was a better rapper, but Tupac is an entity. As a rap fan, I pick BIG. As a music fan, I pick 2pac.

I have to say, I never quite thought of it that way. A very thought-provoking answer, sir.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Left field lyrics? As in the violent ones that have been in death metal ever since 1987? Yeah, blood and violence aren't at all "left field" within the death metal world. And what trappings are they rejecting? Evisceration Plague is just another CC album. That's it.

Funnily enough, theme isn't that relevant an aspect of lyrical interest. Rather it's the execution and word play which will be the defining factor and I'd say that the album was left field in that way.

They made 'It all will end in the dirt again / To decompose' into a brutal vocal hook. That's almost dethkloky in nature :smallbiggrin:


So, large aspects of the sound were typical. Thus the sound is largely generic. Generic pretty much equals stock, so CC is pretty much stock death metal. They still can kick ass, but they're still stock.

So, because the qualifiers of Death Metal were present it instantly becomes stock through some tenuous progressions? Your reasoning is questionable at best sir :smalltongue:

All Death Metal shares large amounts of common ground, unless if it brakes off into a subgenre. It's not really a style which welcomes innovation, which is why Hammer Smashed Face is a song which could have been recorded last year were it not cursed by poor mixing and the like.

Essentially you've just declared every Death Metal band ever to be stock. Me, I don't think like that - if they can do enough to interest me then they get pulled out of stock and labelled as potential wonderment material.


What I mean brilliant in style is that it's interesting, unique, new, and just overall sounds good.

Then you should consider an entirely different descriptor. Perhaps something along the lines of 'a good album'?


You called Evisceration Plague one of the greatest death metal albums. I'm sorry, but a truly great album has to do something new. To be one of the best, you really have to stand out. While I did like Evisceration Plague, all it had going for it was the fact that it was fun. However, there are plenty of fun albums. In the end, all EP does is play it safe. No new thoughts. Nothing really interesting or imaginative. Just another CC album.

Declarations of the best ever for anything in music is self evident hyperbole. Fact. That's why all best of lists are never going to be anything but outrage machines spewing forth gutted fanboys of every band, from Fall Out Boy to Zanzabarbarian.

I'd however question where you're endlessly accusing EP of playing it safe from, it's part of a gradual transition and progression, something which I personally support because while innovation from a band is good trying to shake up too much at once is just stupid territory.

[DraPrime]

Funnily enough, theme isn't that relevant an aspect of lyrical interest. Rather it's the execution and word play which will be the defining factor and I'd say that the album was left field in that way.

They made 'It all will end in the dirt again / To decompose' into a brutal vocal hook. That's almost dethkloky in nature :smallbiggrin:[/QUOTE}

Clearly, when going for brutality one should sound like Dethklok :smallsigh:

[QUOTE=Klose_the_Sith;7657438]So, because the qualifiers of Death Metal were present it instantly becomes stock through some tenuous progressions? Your reasoning is questionable at best sir :smalltongue:

You missed the point of what I said. It's not just that "this is death metal." It just goes through a lot of cliche and generic death metal sound. Thus, stock.


All Death Metal shares large amounts of common ground, unless if it brakes off into a subgenre. It's not really a style which welcomes innovation, which is why Hammer Smashed Face is a song which could have been recorded last year were it not cursed by poor mixing and the like.

Death metal does welcome innovation. After all, what the hell was Atheist, Cynic, Demilich, Decapitated, and Augury?



Essentially you've just declared every Death Metal band ever to be stock. Me, I don't think like that - if they can do enough to interest me then they get pulled out of stock and labelled as potential wonderment material.

I have not declared every death metal band to be stock. But I have declared a lot of them to be. Why? Because most bands lack anything really interesting to keep them from being "death metal band #69085." It's like that with all genres. And I don't see what you're second point really is. It seems to be "if it sounds good, than I think it's good." Ok? That's pretty much how most people think.


Then you should consider an entirely different descriptor. Perhaps something along the lines of 'a good album'?

Go back and read what I said.



Declarations of the best ever for anything in music is self evident hyperbole. Fact. That's why all best of lists are never going to be anything but outrage machines spewing forth gutted fanboys of every band, from Fall Out Boy to Zanzabarbarian.

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that certain opinions can be just absurd.



I'd however question where you're endlessly accusing EP of playing it safe from, it's part of a gradual transition and progression, something which I personally support because while innovation from a band is good trying to shake up too much at once is just stupid territory.

What gradual transition? CC has pretty much released everything in the same style for a long time. EP is just yet another album like that. Yeah, there's gonna be some slight variations every time, but that's because it's nearly impossible to completely copy your previous work if you don't actually try. So there's really no innovation here. Just another CC album.

[Nameless]

*Time for Nameless to butt in because he can*

Okay, so when I meet new people, the first question they ask me is usually “Wat r u, emo or goff lulz?” though I’m a pretty big Metal fan. One of the main reasons is because I’m pretty open minded towards music as a whole, and Metal can incorporate almost every genre and style into it. Now, I understand that Rap can do this too, but rap is one of the genre’s that just doesn’t appeal to me and I personally don‘t think it does it as well as Metal. Apart from a few artists here and there, I just don’t enjoy it. another other reason as to why I love metal so much might be because I also enjoy Classical music. And even putting aside metal sub-genre’s such as neo-classical Metal, Opera Metal and Symphonic Metal, Classical inspirations are found throughout a lot of Metal, especially since the 80’s. Even for some of the unlikely sub-genre’s such as Thrash and even some Folk Metal, you can still hear it.
A lot of Metalheads I’ve spoken too kind of refuse to accept this. They’re usually the types who only listen to a few kinds of metal and nothing else. I’ve kind of managed to split Metalheads into two distinct types; The angry, arrogant and closed minded kind, and the ones who actually understand Metal. :smalltongue:

Anyway, no I’m not really a fan of Rap, however I understand that there are some pretty talented rap artists and I respect them. I have nothing against the genre, I just don’t particularly enjoy it.

AWAY! *poof*

[Klose_the_Sith]

Clearly, when going for brutality one should sound like Dethklok :smallsigh:

Ah, I take it that you can't simply enjoy something for what it is then, hmm? I suppose that's why this whole meaningless dispute is being drawn out anyway ...


You missed the point of what I said. It's not just that "this is death metal." It just goes through a lot of cliche and generic death metal sound. Thus, stock.

No, I got what you said. This doesn't however change the fact that I disagree - you say that it falls into all the cliches, while I simply consider it to have the basic death metal grounding it needs to be death metal and that it develops from there.


Death metal does welcome innovation. After all, what the hell was Atheist, Cynic, Demilich, Decapitated, and Augury?

Fine bands who innovated. What my 2 AM post probably failed to elaborate on was that there are such bands but half the time they're remarkable purely because of how they go against the grain. Sure, the music can still be good but most Death Metal groups who do something weird tend to gimmick me out of interest in one way or another. Nile is a good example of this, half of their songs are ****ing unlistenable because of the overextended Egyptian riff bull****. I still like them as a band and they've done something different, but god do they get boring easily ...


I have not declared every death metal band to be stock. But I have declared a lot of them to be. Why? Because most bands lack anything really interesting to keep them from being "death metal band #69085." It's like that with all genres. And I don't see what you're second point really is. It seems to be "if it sounds good, than I think it's good." Ok? That's pretty much how most people think.

I think we've said the same thing but in different ways, yet it turned into an argument. That combined with the lateness of this hour has led me to really not care much about this at all. Have a smiley ":smallsmile:"


Go back and read what I said.]/quote]

I read exactly what you said. That doesn't change the fact that all you're doing is dancing around the potential for statements with doses of clarity, something which I don't generally expect from others.

[QUOTE=Dragonprime;7657651]Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that certain opinions can be just absurd.

Which doesn't change the fact that seemingly absurd opinions can rock you to your very core. Creationism was once viewed as Scientific fact, the first person who challenged that would have seemed stark raving mad. (I know, meatspace religion but can we just ignore it and not say anything about an irrelevant metaphor?).


What gradual transition? CC has pretty much released everything in the same style for a long time. EP is just yet another album like that. Yeah, there's gonna be some slight variations every time, but that's because it's nearly impossible to completely copy your previous work if you don't actually try. So there's really no innovation here. Just another CC album.

They're following the progression of any horror movie series - they're becoming more excessive and less serious, whilst attaining a sort of ... redness. It's hard to explain, but I get a real sense of dark pulsating red from EP, which is something which they've struck me as working towards for a while. They started off with this very unrefined Splatter and gradually it's been shaped.

I hear music in colours o.O

[Frozen_Feet]

What I mean brilliant in style is that it's interesting, unique, new, and just overall sounds good.

You called Evisceration Plague one of the greatest death metal albums. I'm sorry, but a truly great album has to do something new. To be one of the best, you really have to stand out.
I don't think novelty is a very good criteria for rating music - after all, when someone does something well, it's copied by everyone else. What might be expectional today might be cliche tomorrow. That's way I can't be bothered to listen to KISS, for example - what they did has been done way better by those who came afterwards. It's also a reason why I'm annoyed by people claiming Number of the Beast is Iron Maiden's best album because it was soooo revolutionary back then - it might be true, but since then they've made even better stuff, despite it coming from the same mold.

Point is, the difference between a stock band and a great band must lie somewhere else - because the stock bands will copy the tricks of the great ones sooner or later.

[DraPrime]

They're following the progression of any horror movie series - they're becoming more excessive and less serious, whilst attaining a sort of ... redness. It's hard to explain, but I get a real sense of dark pulsating red from EP, which is something which they've struck me as working towards for a while. They started off with this very unrefined Splatter and gradually it's been shaped.

I hear music in colours o.O

So....they're stagnating. Like a horror series.

[Warpfire]

And for the Rap fans in the thread: If you had to pick one - Biggie or Tupac?

I almost have to pick Biggie just because he doesn't have an album coming out next year.*

More seriously though, I'd have to say they're kind of apples to oranges to me. I've always thought of them as representing two very different but equally important aspects of rap.

If I absolutely had to pick though it would probably be Biggie.

*Though what he doesn't have in quantity of his posthumous, he sure as hell makes up in "quality". Duets is the worst thing to happen to any dead artist, ever. Korn? Seriously?

[Klose_the_Sith]

So....they're stagnating. Like a horror series.

I hear something different, you don't. For me it is one of the best Death Metal albums that I've ever heard, cause it's gone somewhere which most other bands only hint at.

Besides, horror series's remain watchable, but the reasons for enjoyment will mutate and change ... hilariously :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, enough of that ****.

[Starbuck_II]

Metal has a game out: Brutal Legends.
Rap should get its own action RPG then we can better compare.

[Catch]

Metal has a game out: Brutal Legends.
Rap should get its own action RPG disappointing RTS then we can better compare.

Fixed that for you.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Metal has a game out: Brutal Legends.
Rap should get its own action RPG then we can better compare.

If it was like Brutal Legend then the Rap version wouldn't even have a good soundtrack to fall back on :smallwink:

[skywalker]

I have to say, I never quite thought of it that way. A very thought-provoking answer, sir.

Wow, thank you. I'm honored. :smallsmile:


I almost have to pick Biggie just because he doesn't have an album coming out next year.*

More seriously though, I'd have to say they're kind of apples to oranges to me. I've always thought of them as representing two very different but equally important aspects of rap.

If I absolutely had to pick though it would probably be Biggie.

*Though what he doesn't have in quantity of his posthumous, he sure as hell makes up in "quality". Duets is the worst thing to happen to any dead artist, ever. Korn? Seriously?

Apples and oranges is kinda what I was trying to say. Nevertheless, if we can have a discussion of the merits of rap/hip-hop vs. metal, I think we can try to attempt 2pac vs. BIG. :smallbiggrin:

I do not include any posthumous 2pac releases in my judgment of him. It's not his fault his mom is still star-struck/greedy enough to keep throwing his out-takes and other crap onto records for the masses to eat up. One exception: Thugz Mansion, which is one of the best hip-hop songs I've ever heard. Two of the greatest MCs and music that fits perfectly for the subject. Anyway, like I said, there's a reason Pac cut that crap in the first place.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Rap should get its own action RPG then we can better compare.
Sooo.... how about GTA: San Andreas? :smallbiggrin: Hey, it's almost like an RPG except you don't gain levels.

[Sahaar]

Give me metal any day. Metal can tell an epic story, rap tends to be nothing more than over synthesized music with no beat and words (often mispronounced or made up) that flaunt a lifestyle that is extravagant to the level of idiocy.

Pretty obvious what side I'm on ^_^.

That's why I hate it. Metal FTW!!!

[derfos]

I love metal, but I have to admit that "a lifestyle that is extravagant to the level of idiocy" is a descriptor that fits both rap AND metal. I'm just thinking of pretty much every death or black metal band and the 'lifestyles' they are flaunting.

[Sneak]

I much prefer rap to metal. Rap still isn't my favorite genre, but there are several less mainstream rap artists that are fantastic (Deltron 3030, El-P, Jedi Mind Tricks, Virtuoso, POS, Dr. Octagon, A Tribe Called Quest). Even the worst rap is just bad—metal, in my opinion, ranges from "meh" to "makes me want to gouge out my eardrums with a spoon so I can be free from this horrible, horrible auditory torment."

I do think rap tends to attract more hate than metal, though—most people who don't listen to metal still don't really hate it, while tons and tons of people loudly proclaim their complete and utter disdain for all rap. I'm not sure why that is, exactly, but I think it might have to do partly with the the fact that it's more successful in the mainstream compared to metal and that people often have bad experiences or opinions of those who listen to rap.

[DraPrime]

I do think rap tends to attract more hate than metal, though—most people who don't listen to metal still don't really hate it, while tons and tons of people loudly proclaim their complete and utter disdain for all rap. I'm not sure why that is, exactly, but I think it might have to do partly with the the fact that it's more successful in the mainstream compared to metal and that people often have bad experiences or opinions of those who listen to rap.

Really? I've gotten a very different experience. Most people that I know really hate metal. It seems to be one of the most hated genres around. Maybe it's just like this where I live.

[Otogi]

Metal has a game out: Brutal Legends.
Rap should get its own action RPG then we can better compare.

Agreed. Def Jam Icon had something that sort of resembled what the Hip-Hop world would resemble, and while needing some more creatures, could definitely work.


Give me metal any day. Metal can tell an epic story, rap tends to be nothing more than over synthesized music with no beat and words (often mispronounced or made up) that flaunt a lifestyle that is extravagant to the level of idiocy.

Pretty obvious what side I'm on ^_^.

Give me hip-hop any day. Hip-hop can display a plethora of emotion, while able to keep a scope that is both personal and epic, almost global. Metal tends to be nothing more than poorly edited music with no tempo and words (often unintelligible or frankly disturbing) that praise a lifestyle that is nihilistic and empty to the level of stupidity.

Pretty obvious that little quote needed rebuke of the same style :smallannoyed:

EDIT: That was a little satire of the quote, these aren't my true feelings on metal...although, they are my true feelings on hip-hop.

[derfos]

Really? I've gotten a very different experience. Most people that I know really hate metal. It seems to be one of the most hated genres around. Maybe it's just like this where I live.

I find that most people rather than hating metal, find metal ridiculous and hard to understand. I've had people ask me if I listen to metal have a lot of hidden anger or if I just do it to be different. Rap seems to be a genre that is overall better understood in the mainstream than metal (given that there are radio stations fully dedicated to rap, but pretty much no metal radio stations). This doesn't mean that rap-haters don't exist, I'm just saying that rap, by being more mainstream than metal, is bound to receive less open hate.

[Otogi]

I find that most people rather than hating metal, find metal ridiculous and hard to understand. I've had people ask me if I listen to metal have a lot of hidden anger or if I just do it to be different. Rap seems to be a genre that is overall better understood in the mainstream than metal (given that there are radio stations fully dedicated to rap, but pretty much no metal radio stations). This doesn't mean that rap-haters don't exist, I'm just saying that rap, by being more mainstream than metal, is bound to receive less open hate.

And weirdly enough, that's the exact opposite of this forum.

[Jimp]

I wasn't aware there was a war until I saw this thread.

[derfos]

And weirdly enough, that's the exact opposite of this forum.

Yeah well, among D&D fans metal is more popular, but D&D fans only make up a small percentege of the actual world. Why is metal more popular within roleplayers? My bet: both metalheads and gamers form subcultures that aren't too well liked in the mainstream, so its easier to find a connection.

[Decoy Lockbox]

I love metal, but I have to admit that "a lifestyle that is extravagant to the level of idiocy" is a descriptor that fits both rap AND metal. I'm just thinking of pretty much every death or black metal band and the 'lifestyles' they are flaunting.

Yeah, I don't think the guys in Cannibal Corpse are out there stabbing people. I'm pretty sure that in their downtime they are pretty much average joes. Well, the vocalist really likes WoW (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW_Lv0r-l4c), but other than that...


Yeah well, among D&D fans metal is more popular, but D&D fans only make up a small percentege of the actual world. Why is metal more popular within roleplayers? My bet: both metalheads and gamers form subcultures that aren't too well liked in the mainstream, so its easier to find a connection.

There's also the fact that a lot of bands write songs about demons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg_betSN4a8), dragons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI_WnyOPF04), wizards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvv7gu0UKd0), destroying orcs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVcYsT9WPcs), necromancers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YP_Ya7i2xo), robot revolts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd0MGxtfC3k) and whatnot; you know, the stuff your standard RPGer has to deal with on a day to day basis. Heck, Slough Feg even did an entire album about the RPG system "Traveller"! I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the appeal of metal to D&D fans has more to do with this than anything else. Plus, sometimes you just gotta vent some nerd rage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chiVMrWMHko).

[Otogi]

There's also the fact that a lot of bands write songs about demons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg_betSN4a8), dragons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI_WnyOPF04), wizards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvv7gu0UKd0), destroying orcs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVcYsT9WPcs), necromancers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YP_Ya7i2xo), robot revolts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd0MGxtfC3k) and whatnot; you know, the stuff your standard RPGer has to deal with on a day to day basis. Heck, Slough Feg even did an entire album about the RPG system "Traveller"! I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the appeal of metal to D&D fans has more to do with this than anything else. Plus, sometimes you just gotta vent some nerd rage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chiVMrWMHko).

Inversely, many hip-hop artists include things like comic books and video games, to the point of editing clips and sounds of cartoons and games. I think as a rule of thumb, the more underground the group or rapper, the more they include these references and how many sources they include.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Really? I've gotten a very different experience. Most people that I know really hate metal. It seems to be one of the most hated genres around. Maybe it's just like this where I live.

+1 By so much, way too many ****tards where I live who think it's clever to hate on metal whilst loving the asscrab mainstream rap (or worse still, Coldplay :smallsigh:)

Additionally - I imagine I would have been glared at less whilst in England were I wearing gang symbols. Lamest thing I've ever seen.


Inversely, many hip-hop artists include things like comic books and video games, to the point of editing clips and sounds of cartoons and games. I think as a rule of thumb, the more underground the group or rapper, the more they include these references and how many sources they include.

Yet without an increase in the likelihood of them being good >.>

[skywalker]

I much prefer rap to metal. Rap still isn't my favorite genre, but there are several less mainstream rap artists that are fantastic (Deltron 3030, El-P, Jedi Mind Tricks, Virtuoso, POS, Dr. Octagon, A Tribe Called Quest). Even the worst rap is just bad—metal, in my opinion, ranges from "meh" to "makes me want to gouge out my eardrums with a spoon so I can be free from this horrible, horrible auditory torment."

I do think rap tends to attract more hate than metal, though—most people who don't listen to metal still don't really hate it, while tons and tons of people loudly proclaim their complete and utter disdain for all rap. I'm not sure why that is, exactly, but I think it might have to do partly with the the fact that it's more successful in the mainstream compared to metal and that people often have bad experiences or opinions of those who listen to rap.

I really like this post.

Also, it's really sad that ATCQ is "less mainstream." Those poor guys. I blame gangsta rap for their troubles, altho not in a necessarily bad way. It's just kinda a shame gangsta stuff completely annihilated stuff like that when it came to the radio.


I wasn't aware there was a war until I saw this thread.

Yeah, me neither.


Yeah, I don't think the guys in Cannibal Corpse are out there stabbing people. I'm pretty sure that in their downtime they are pretty much average joes. Well, the vocalist really likes WoW (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW_Lv0r-l4c), but other than that...


Well, neither are a lot of rappers out there shooting people/joining the mile high club. Just because you sing about "makin' it rain" doesn't mean you do it, just as in metal.

[Decoy Lockbox]

Well, neither are a lot of rappers out there shooting people/joining the mile high club. Just because you sing about "makin' it rain" doesn't mean you do it, just as in metal.

I know, but for whatever reason metal catches a lot of flak for this. Its the classic "oh noes, music is making young people do things!" fear that people seem to have had forever -- ragtime, blues, jazz, all were called devil music in their day. Of course, it doesn't help that some metal actually is devil music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFn26ntmSsg), but still! Though come to think of it, if you showed that video I linked earlier to a "normal" person, they'd probably think you were crazy too. So on the one hand, the anti-metal (or at least anti extreme metal) sentiment in the mainstream is somewhat justifiable, but on the other hand, I truly love those bands. What a dilemma :smallfrown:

Its a case of all the bands getting glommed together in the court of public opinion. You tell someone you like metal (even if you mean fun stuff like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmR8zYMrOJE)), and they assume you're going to eviscerate them with a hatchet. These days, when somebody asks me what type of music I listen to, if they are above the age of 35 I tend to tell them "classic rock", to avoid freaking them out. If they're wearing a black t-shirt with an indecipherable logo on it, I know I'm in good company. Well, that or the shirt is for some crappy deathcore band.

I should specify something before this rant goes any farther -- not only do I not have any actual beef with rap, I've actually started listening to more and more of it lately, at the behest of an ex-college roomate. Also, I've been watching "The Wire", which makes being a drug dealing gangsta look totally awesome (well, at least the first season does).

[derfos]

I think we do have a valid point here. When someone asks me what music I listen to, I often avoid the question because I know that saying "metal" just weirds people out. I don't really think that's the case for rap. As much as there may be some rap-haters out there (just like there are country-haters and R&B-haters), our culture nowadays is rather inclusive of rap (radio, soundtracks for movies, etc.). On the other hand, metal is only seen is certain areas that are already somewhat alienated from what we would call 'socially acceptable' (roleplaying games being the clear example here).

[Beanie]

+1 By so much, way too many ****tards where I live who think it's clever to hate on metal whilst loving the asscrab mainstream rap (or worse still, Coldplay :smallsigh:)

Yeah, it's much more clever to hate on Coldplay instead.

[Sneak]

Yeah, it's much more clever to hate on Coldplay instead.

<3



I think we do have a valid point here. When someone asks me what music I listen to, I often avoid the question because I know that saying "metal" just weirds people out. I don't really think that's the case for rap. As much as there may be some rap-haters out there (just like there are country-haters and R&B-haters), our culture nowadays is rather inclusive of rap (radio, soundtracks for movies, etc.). On the other hand, metal is only seen is certain areas that are already somewhat alienated from what we would call 'socially acceptable' (roleplaying games being the clear example here).

That's true, but that's kind of irrelevant. Thinking something is weird =/= hating it.

I know plenty of people who think metal and/or metalheads are weird, but I don't really know anyone (besides yours truly) who hates metal.

On the flip side, no one thinks rap is weird, and yet it's still the favorite object of hate for the country's best and brightest elitist snobs.

Maybe it's just where I live or the kind of people I come into contact with, I dunno. But that's how I see things.


I really like this post.

Aw, shucks.


Also, it's really sad that ATCQ is "less mainstream." Those poor guys. I blame gangsta rap for their troubles, altho not in a necessarily bad way. It's just kinda a shame gangsta stuff completely annihilated stuff like that when it came to the radio.

Indeed. To be fair, though, they're still pretty well-known and popular, just not nearly as well-known or popular as, say, Kanye.

[Decoy Lockbox]

I think we do have a valid point here. When someone asks me what music I listen to, I often avoid the question because I know that saying "metal" just weirds people out. I don't really think that's the case for rap. As much as there may be some rap-haters out there (just like there are country-haters and R&B-haters), our culture nowadays is rather inclusive of rap (radio, soundtracks for movies, etc.). On the other hand, metal is only seen is certain areas that are already somewhat alienated from what we would call 'socially acceptable' (roleplaying games being the clear example here).

I guess singing about killing people is okay in a gangstas and ho's based context, but if there's a guitar involved, it somehow becomes wrong.

[skywalker]

I know, but for whatever reason metal catches a lot of flak for this. Its the classic "oh noes, music is making young people do things!" fear that people seem to have had forever -- ragtime, blues, jazz, all were called devil music in their day. Of course, it doesn't help that some metal actually is devil music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFn26ntmSsg), but still! Though come to think of it, if you showed that video I linked earlier to a "normal" person, they'd probably think you were crazy too. So on the one hand, the anti-metal (or at least anti extreme metal) sentiment in the mainstream is somewhat justifiable, but on the other hand, I truly love those bands. What a dilemma :smallfrown:

Well, blues may have been as well, depending on what you believe about Robert Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Johnson_%28musician%29).


I know plenty of people who think metal and/or metalheads are weird, but I don't really know anyone (besides yours truly) who hates metal.

On the flip side, no one thinks rap is weird, and yet it's still the favorite object of hate for the country's best and brightest elitist snobs.

Now see, I'm like Sneak on this one. I don't know where he lives, but I feel the same way, like I'm surrounded by people who either love or hate rap, and most of the people I know are just "meh" when it comes to metal.

But I'd like to suggest you guys really are wrong with this one:


I think we do have a valid point here. When someone asks me what music I listen to, I often avoid the question because I know that saying "metal" just weirds people out. I don't really think that's the case for rap. As much as there may be some rap-haters out there (just like there are country-haters and R&B-haters), our culture nowadays is rather inclusive of rap (radio, soundtracks for movies, etc.). On the other hand, metal is only seen is certain areas that are already somewhat alienated from what we would call 'socially acceptable' (roleplaying games being the clear example here).


I guess singing about killing people is okay in a gangstas and ho's based context, but if there's a guitar involved, it somehow becomes wrong.

Before Jack Thompson's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Thompson_%28activist%29) complete lunacy was revealed for all to see thru his one-man war against video games, he spent a few years trying to get various records by 2 Live Crew and N.W.A. banned for subverting culture or some business. Also, hip-hop and metal were forever linked in some ways by both genres' persecution by the PMRC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parents_Music_Resource_Center). Both genres get a lot of unfair bad publicity, to be quite honest. A lot of people decry rap as contributing to "the decline of culture," or some nonsense.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Yeah, it's much more clever to hate on Coldplay instead.

Yes, yes it is. Coldplay aren't even a real band.

[derfos]

I guess we have a disagreement as to what rap-hate and metal-hate means. There is, of course, a difference between active and passive 'hate'. In active hate, someone goes 'I hate...', and here rap might come out as more hated than metal. I passive hate, though, the hate is not shown through someone saying that he/she hates something, but rather by excluding it from the mainstream society. By turning metal into a punchline, our society demonstrates how hated the genre actually is.

[Weiser_Cain]

Wow, this is still going on?

[Otogi]

I guess we have a disagreement as to what rap-hate and metal-hate means. There is, of course, a difference between active and passive 'hate'. In active hate, someone goes 'I hate...', and here rap might come out as more hated than metal. I passive hate, though, the hate is not shown through someone saying that he/she hates something, but rather by excluding it from the mainstream society. By turning metal into a punchline, our society demonstrates how hated the genre actually is.

So your saying it may be equal? That both are hated the same, but in different ways?

[Decoy Lockbox]

So your saying it may be equal? That both are hated the same, but in different ways?

Pretty much. Both rap and metal are hated and scorned by "the man", but I find that among people my age (22) in my area, rap is totally fine, whereas a good deal of metal still freaks people out.

[DraPrime]

Wow, this is still going on?

Yes...yes it is.

[Weiser_Cain]

Yes...yes it is.

But I like both, and so did most of my friends way back in highschool. There is some if not a huge amount of overlap both being arguably driven by machismo and or teen angst.

[skywalker]

But I like both, and so did most of my friends way back in highschool. There is some if not a huge amount of overlap both being arguably driven by machismo and or teen angst.

And being this generation's "rebel music." See my last post. In the height of the 80s scare, one of the concerned parents actually said "it seems we've come a long way since the wholesome days of Elvis." Elvis.

[Faulty]

Pretty much. Both rap and metal are hated and scorned by "the man", but I find that among people my age (22) in my area, rap is totally fine, whereas a good deal of metal still freaks people out.

I do notice this as well. Older folk in general dislike the genres. When you think about it, the genres are only a few decades old, so a lot of the people who grew up listening to Iron Maiden, Darkthrone, Wu-Tang Clan and/or Nas are generally in their 20s or 30s.

[Weiser_Cain]

And being this generation's "rebel music." See my last post. In the height of the 80s scare, one of the concerned parents actually said "it seems we've come a long way since the wholesome days of Elvis." Elvis.
This generation? My mom listens to rap.

[skywalker]

This generation? My mom listens to rap.

Some moms listened to Elvis back in the day.

[snoopy13a]

I wasn't aware there was a war until I saw this thread.

Because there isn't one :smallsmile:

Most people don't care about metal. They don't hate it. They simply don't care or even realize it still exists. You can't hate something that you don't know or care about. It is genres that have mainstream appeal such as country, rap, and pop music that inspire dislike.

Ask the average person on the street to name metal bands. I'll bet that most people won't name any other than Metallica and some won't name any.

[Weiser_Cain]

Some moms listened to Elvis back in the day.
Please stop mentioning elvis.

[Decoy Lockbox]

I do notice this as well. Older folk in general dislike the genres. When you think about it, the genres are only a few decades old, so a lot of the people who grew up listening to Iron Maiden, Darkthrone, Wu-Tang Clan and/or Nas are generally in their 20s or 30s.

I'd like to take a brief moment to notify the assembled thread participants that the Wu-Tang Clan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8HMU7HC1Uc#t=0m52s) ain't nothin' to f**k with.

[Faulty]

This generation? My mom listens to rap.

In general?

My mom likes some Metal (she used to be able to sing along to the entirety of Kamelot's The Black Halo with me) and Rap, but only because of me.

[skywalker]

Please stop mentioning elvis.

...

:smallconfused:

Why?

[Jimp]

Because there isn't one :smallsmile:

Most people don't care about metal. They don't hate it. They simply don't care or even realize it still exists. You can't hate something that you don't know or care about. It is genres that have mainstream appeal such as country, rap, and pop music that inspire dislike.

Ask the average person on the street to name metal bands. I'll bet that most people won't name any other than Metallica and some won't name any.That's true. You'd get the odd aging rocker but for the most part people don't know or remember any.
On a smaller scale, the people I know who listen to metal don't hate rap and vice versa. However, these people also wholly recognise that both genres are split into many different sub-genres and that taking either as a single entity is a mistake. I have metalhead friends who like and dislike sub-genres of both and likewise with the rap friends. I'm the same, I like bits of both and to generalise either genre would be unfair to the artists.

[Optimystik]

Fixed that for you.

Beat me to it.


Yeah well, among D&D fans metal is more popular, but D&D fans only make up a small percentege of the actual world. Why is metal more popular within roleplayers? My bet: both metalheads and gamers form subcultures that aren't too well liked in the mainstream, so its easier to find a connection.

I think the iconography is one reason - A lot of Metal tends to draw rather heavily upon fantasy imagery, themes and artwork, while rap simply doesn't. So it's a lot easier for D&D players to connect with.


Please stop mentioning elvis.

But he's the king.
Not sure what you're getting at with that request.

[Decoy Lockbox]

In general?

My mom likes some Metal (she used to be able to sing along to the entirety of Kamelot's The Black Halo with me) and Rap, but only because of me.

I once emailed my dad some Mastodon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6WGNd8QR-U) once, thinking he might like the new proggy direction they've taken, and he emailed me back with "Sorry; not my cup o' tea. But then again, they're not the Archies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGL4btEIoTo) :-)"

And I couldn't even tell if he was being serious or not :smalleek:

[Klose_the_Sith]

I once emailed my dad some Mastodon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6WGNd8QR-U) once, thinking he might like the new proggy direction they've taken, and he emailed me back with "Sorry; not my cup o' tea. But then again, they're not the Archies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGL4btEIoTo) :-)"

And I couldn't even tell if he was being serious or not :smalleek:

I've gotten my dad to love Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Some Mastodon, Hammerfall and I got him interested in Opeth.

He who generally listens to naught but country.

[Pocketa]

It's no secret that almost everyone on this forum has a preference toward metal. I'm also guessing that almost everyone has a disdain for rap and hip-hop. I'm not here to argue whether they're right for doing so, or which one is really the best. What I do want to know is whether you guys have ever heard of a hip-hop aficionado who hates metal the same way. Has anyone ever had an experience like that?

You can always go for crunkcore.

Brokencyde anyone?

Worst of both worlds.

[Faulty]

You can always go for crunkcore.

Brokencyde anyone?

Worst of both worlds.

Hey. Hey. They are creating ART.

[Sneak]

I think the iconography is one reason - A lot of Metal tends to draw rather heavily upon fantasy imagery, themes and artwork, while rap simply doesn't. So it's a lot easier for D&D players to connect with.

Deltron 3030, anyone? More SF than fantasy, but it works with some geeky themes.


I'm the same, I like bits of both and to generalise either genre would be unfair to the artists.

...actually, I'm okay with generalizing in metal's case. Hypocritical? Sure. But I've never heard a metal song that I like.

[Optimystik]

Deltron 3030, anyone? More SF than fantasy, but it works with some geeky themes.

I was specifically referring to fantasy though, which has close to zero representation in hip-hop.

[Sneak]

I was specifically referring to fantasy though, which has close to zero representation in hip-hop.

To be fair, though, DnD-style fantasy has pretty much zero representation in any genre besides metal, but DnD players still don't listen exclusively to metal.

[skywalker]

You can always go for crunkcore.

Brokencyde anyone?

Worst of both worlds.

You know, I don't find it that bad. Brokencyde is pretty bad, but of course 3Oh!3 are making money so fast I'm sure they can't count it.

I'm not sure crunkcore can be classified as the worst of rap and metal. More like the emo/hipster-tinged revenge of nu metal...

[Faulty]

Crunkcore is like, the worst genre of anything ever. I'm generally accepting of different genres, but Crunkcore is just anathema to all that is good and holy in my eyes.

[raitalin]

More like the emo/hipster-tinged revenge of nu metal...

I've not heard those groups, but I'm not sure if a sentence has ever made me more nauseous.

[Otogi]

Crunkcore is like, the worst genre of anything ever. I'm generally accepting of different genres, but Crunkcore is just anathema to all that is good and holy in my eyes.

To be fair, this is pretty accurate.

[snoopy13a]

I'm not sure crunkcore can be classified as the worst of rap and metal. More like the emo/hipster-tinged revenge of nu metal...

I'd think Limp Biscuit (I can't remember the "creative" spelling they used for it) would be the worst...

I saw them at Woodstock '99 (I went mainly to see DMB). I had never heard of them previously and I was a little intimidated by their 6'3 240 pound shaved head fans (I bet none of them would admit being fans now :smalltongue: ).

[skywalker]

I've not heard those groups, but I'm not sure if a sentence has ever made me more nauseous.

I'll take this as a positive opinion of my attempted emotional appeal.


I'd think Limp Biscuit (I can't remember the "creative" spelling they used for it) would be the worst...

"Limp Bizkit."

I think Korn and Slipknot are worse, altho all three have way too many Ks going on.

[DraPrime]

I think Korn and Slipknot are worse, altho all three have way too many Ks going on.

While I don't like Slipknot, I would like to point out that their name is actually spelled correctly.

[Nameless]

And Slipknot only had one Nu Metal album. :smalltongue:

[Klose_the_Sith]

I think Korn and Slipknot are worse, altho all three have way too many Ks going on.

They're not really the worst, because when they started out they weren't completely terrible. Sure now they rank as amongst the worst sounds ever recorded, but initially they were just typical bland musicymusic.

Crunkcore was, however, never even remotely good. Thus defeat.