[4E] Max Damage a Barbarian can do in one round? [Archive]

Mando Knight

2009-12-30, 07:08 PM

Quick question for you: I'm curious if anyone knows of a single round dps build, or high burst dps build, for a barbarian? What's the highest damage that class can deal in a single round (assuming average damage rolled on all dies and one action point used)? Does this type of dps compare favorably or unfavorably to a Warlock?

What level?

Yes, Barbarian dpr compares favorably with every Striker class except for Rangers, and even then comes in as a considerable alternative. Fortunately, Strikers are all ridiculously easy to optimize. For a great-weapon Barbarian, take a Superior two-handed weapon of choice from Adventurer's Vault or a military two-handed weapon from the PHB in the mean time. Grab Weapon Focus and Expertise for that kind of weapon, and you're pretty much set.

For reference, a level 1 Goliath Rageblood Barbarian with a Greataxe and Goliath Greatweapon Prowess can deal 1d12+1d8+6 damage with the Devastating Strike at-will, and 3d12+10 with the Avalanche Strike encounter power, with additional damage if he's in the rage of the bloodhunt and is either bloodied or fighting a bloodied opponent.

Deepblue706

2009-12-30, 07:20 PM

Should I be considering another class altogether - like a rogue - for pure burst dps?

Thanks for the help in advance!

Barbarian isn't bad for someone new, in my opinion, although I think you ought to consider getting yourself good defenses. Barbarians can deliver a lot of smackdown with ease - so much so that I don't think you really even need to plan out anything more complicated than "Does this power require me to do something other than hold a two-handed weapon" - so I don't think you really need to worry about damage-optimization.

But, despite that, they can be overwhelmed by enemies when they lack Hide Armor Expertise, or a good DEX (the Whirly-Rendy-Whatever-Guy can use DEX to his advantage). So, as you would with just about any other striker, be a little careful.

Jack_Banzai

2009-12-30, 07:24 PM

What level?

Yes, Barbarian dpr compares favorably with every Striker class except for Rangers, and even then comes in as a considerable alternative. Fortunately, Strikers are all ridiculously easy to optimize. For a great-weapon Barbarian, take a Superior two-handed weapon of choice from Adventurer's Vault or a military two-handed weapon from the PHB in the mean time. Grab Weapon Focus and Expertise for that kind of weapon, and you're pretty much set.

For reference, a level 1 Goliath Rageblood Barbarian with a Greataxe and Goliath Greatweapon Prowess can deal 1d12+1d8+6 damage with the Devastating Strike at-will, and 3d12+10 with the Avalanche Strike encounter power, with additional damage if he's in the rage of the bloodhunt and is either bloodied or fighting a bloodied opponent.

As far as I know, with a vanilla level 1 character with no magical items or buffs from supporting characters, the max damage attack I have been able to create is 4d12+18. This would be a level 1 Ardent Vow Githzerai Paladin wielding a Fullblade, using Divine Strength and Ardent Vow and the Blood of the Mighty level 1 daily, 18 Strength, 16 Wisdom, and the Githzerai Blade Master feat. On a critical, this works out to 66 + 1d12 damage (since the Fullblade is a high crit weapon). So, 67-78 damage. The Ardent Vow Paladin can out-strike a Barbarian.

This is apropos of nothing, I know, but I found it kind of silly. Particularly since the Paladin can wear plate right out of the box.

Grynning

2009-12-31, 12:14 AM

This (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19648686/Destruction_Manifest:_The_Barbarians_Handbook) is really valuable for any 4th ed Barbarian player. Really well done guide. Looks like he's recently updated it as well.

tcrudisi

2009-12-31, 02:07 AM

As far as I know, with a vanilla level 1 character with no magical items or buffs from supporting characters, the max damage attack I have been able to create is 4d12+18. This would be a level 1 Ardent Vow Githzerai Paladin wielding a Fullblade, using Divine Strength and Ardent Vow and the Blood of the Mighty level 1 daily, 18 Strength, 16 Wisdom, and the Githzerai Blade Master feat. On a critical, this works out to 66 + 1d12 damage (since the Fullblade is a high crit weapon). So, 67-78 damage. The Ardent Vow Paladin can out-strike a Barbarian.

This is apropos of nothing, I know, but I found it kind of silly. Particularly since the Paladin can wear plate right out of the box.

Well, let's compare that to a level 1 Barbarian. Let's say he uses Avalanche Strike with a Fullblade (3d12 + 10) damage and crits. That's 46 + 1d12 (average 52.5 damage). Of course, he just crit, so now he gets a free basic attack, which will do ~1d12 + 6 damage, for another ~12.5 damage. In this round, without an action point, a level 1 Barbarian just did 52 + 2d12 damage, which amounts to 54-76 damage. If the target died (and it probably did), this means a free charge attack, which will do 1d12 + 1d6 + 6 damage. Then, the Barbarian spends an Action Point and does another 3d12 + 6 damage... god help us if he crits on any of those attacks too. Rampage is only usable once a round, but on a burst round like this, it hardly matters. Stuff dies. I've seen a Barbarian do over 100 points of damage in a single round at level 1. My Avenger could do nothing but watch enviously as the Barbarian (which I had built - haha) cut foes in half.

When it comes to pure "burst" damage, nobody tops a Barbarian when things go right. Not even the Ranger. But when it comes to steady, every-round damage, the Ranger is tops.

Jack_Banzai

2009-12-31, 02:40 AM

When it comes to pure "burst" damage, nobody tops a Barbarian when things go right. Not even the Ranger. But when it comes to steady, every-round damage, the Ranger is tops.

The Ardent Vow Pally is still not far behind, not far at all. Recall that if that selfsame AVP action points in order to use Heedless Fury, that too would inflict 3d12+6 on a successful hit (or 42+1d12). The real difference is in the free charge and melee basic on a successful hit. Of course you can't out-strike a striker in an entire round's attacks - but you can do a great big wallop of damage with an AVP defender.

I won't get into my Eladrin Fighter madman's crazy amounts of Greatspear Power Attacking Come and Get It/Thicket of Blades Bloodclaw encounter evilness. That tale is for another day.

mage1337

2009-12-31, 03:34 AM

Thanks guys - this thread is HUGELY helpful. A couple quick follow-up questions if possible:

1) Why is rangers out DPS barbarians round to round? What at-will/encounter powers at early levels are they using to do this?

2) What about the two-weapon fighting barbarian from primal power? Am I correct in thinking that class is AMAZING. Firstly, it is dex based, so you get really solid defenses. But secondly, since its powers split damage between main and offhand weapons, it gets to deal magical plus damage, and critical damage, twice right? Or am I completely misunderstanding 4E damage?

3) Why are rage strikes bad? They were what drew me to the barbarian as a single round dps spiker in the first place, and they seem like a great use for popping low-mid rage dailies when you're already in a strictly superior rage? Is there something I'm missing?

4) I'm also really confused about two handed weapon damage in 4E? Is it as good as could it be in 3.5? As I understand the rules, other than a higher [W] dice, fighting two handed doesn't really seem to do anything.

5) I have never seen an Argent Vow paladin before this thread, I whipped out my copy of divine power and boy do they look good. Can their vow dps really be sustained at higher levels though?

Thanks so much for the help again!

Gralamin

2009-12-31, 04:27 AM

Thanks guys - this thread is HUGELY helpful. A couple quick follow-up questions if possible:

1) Why is rangers out DPS barbarians round to round? What at-will/encounter powers at early levels are they using to do this?
Twin Strike at all levels.
Then any power that involves two attack rolls OR is a minor action attack. And that is A LOT of Ranger powers.

2) What about the two-weapon fighting barbarian from primal power? Am I correct in thinking that class is AMAZING. Firstly, it is dex based, so you get really solid defenses. But secondly, since its powers split damage between main and offhand weapons, it gets to deal magical plus damage, and critical damage, twice right? Or am I completely misunderstanding 4E damage?
You are incorrect. First, Magical Plus damage is both Enhancement bonuses, which don't stack. You also don't get abilities like Weapon Focus twice. You get Critical damage twice (In my opinion do note that there may be some contention), if you have two enhanced weapons, but at the same time the Ranger gets all of the following: Magical Plus twice, Weapon Focus and similar abilities twice, and two chances to crit each attack. In return they have to hit twice. DPR wise, the Ranger wins because of this.

3) Why are rage strikes bad? They were what drew me to the barbarian as a single round dps spiker in the first place, and they seem like a great use for popping low-mid rage dailies when you're already in a strictly superior rage? Is there something I'm missing?
The primary problem with Rage Strike is you have 3 Rages ever (Not counting paragon paths that may grant rages), and using two dailies in one encounter is a HUGE investment. There is a PP in Primal Power that makes it more viable, however.

4) I'm also really confused about two handed weapon damage in 4E? Is it as good as could it be in 3.5? As I understand the rules, other than a higher [W] dice, fighting two handed doesn't really seem to do anything.
It doesn't! That doesn't make it bad though, a Higher [W] Dice is a lot more valuable in 4e. In addition, powers requiring a two-handed weapon tend to do more damage, and some feats give additional benefits with two-handed weapons.

5) I have never seen an Argent Vow paladin before this thread, I whipped out my copy of divine power and boy do they look good. Can their vow dps really be sustained at higher levels though?
Without a lot of tricks, not really. A lot of what they do for damage relies on a level 1 daily power for a large portion of their career.

Edit: I should probably include why I think the Critical hit damage is dealt twice.

It is all based on what this paragraph from Dragon 381 states:

This article introduces some powers that
automatically deal damage to one or more
enemies. Keep in mind that because the
damage is in the “Effect” line, the powers
don’t hit, and therefore can’t benefit from
effects that trigger off of a hit. Also, since the
damage is a flat number, it isn’t considered a
damage roll, and therefore it doesn’t benefit
from effects that increase the result of a
damage roll (but can still benefit from extra
damage that doesn’t require a roll).
Which is essentially the same as the extra damage from the barbarian power. Now these powers explicitly list when they add their enhancement bonus because they don't have that damage roll: So what is required to get the extra damage off a magical weapon is a damage roll with that weapon.
Which means, if the attack crits, you get both critical bonuses, since the Critical Damage and Enhancement bonus wording in the Magic item section uses the same criteria. Enhancement bonuses don't stack, but Critical damage does since they are untyped.

tcrudisi

2009-12-31, 04:53 AM

1) Why is rangers out DPS barbarians round to round? What at-will/encounter powers at early levels are they using to do this?

Twin Strike. From about, oh, level 6 and up, nothing compares. It's sickening. The higher up in level you get, the better it becomes. Multi-attacking is where the real DPR lies. (Note - DPR is more apt, since we are really comparing damage per round and not damage per second).

2) What about the two-weapon fighting barbarian from primal power? Am I correct in thinking that class is AMAZING. Firstly, it is dex based, so you get really solid defenses. But secondly, since its powers split damage between main and offhand weapons, it gets to deal magical plus damage, and critical damage, twice right? Or am I completely misunderstanding 4E damage?

Err, this is a horrible question to try and answer. Nobody is sure how the Whirling Barbarian works yet (and yes -- I used the blanket word of "nobody" because it applies). Here's why: the general rule is that same bonuses don't stack. If you have two weapons, let's say a long sword and a dagger (I know this is horrible, but bear with me), and you have Weapon Focus with each... WF gives a +1 feat bonus to damage. Now, since a feat bonus doesn't stack with a feat bonus, this means you would only get the biggest and not both. Is this what WotC meant? Well, probably not. But we can't be sure. And this goes far beyond Weapon Focus and into the realm of other feats, damage boosters, etc. You will probably only get the critical damage from the main hand. I think I remember reading a CustServ response about that.

Anyway, the short answer is this: Yes, they are awesome. Good defenses, barbarian damage... but nobody knows how to calculate that damage. Please, give your DM a break and look elsewhere (and I hate to say that, seeing as I love the Barbarian... but it's just easier on everyone. And if you played one, you'll set yourself up for possible disappointment when a FAQ is released about how exactly they want those multi-weapon damage attacks to work.)

3) Why are rage strikes bad? They were what drew me to the barbarian as a single round dps spiker in the first place, and they seem like a great use for popping low-mid rage dailies when you're already in a strictly superior rage? Is there something I'm missing?

The strength of the Rage Strike lies in how your DM runs the game. If you get to take an extended rest after every combat, Rage Strike is awesome. If your DM runs you through 3-4 combats in a game day, then Rage Strike is terrible. Barbarians function at their best when Raging (due to the bonuses that it applies), so it is optimal to use one Rage an encounter. Like I was saying though, your mileage will vary depending on the DM. Adjust tactics accordingly.

4) I'm also really confused about two handed weapon damage in 4E? Is it as good as could it be in 3.5? As I understand the rules, other than a higher [W] dice, fighting two handed doesn't really seem to do anything.

You are mostly correct. However, unless you use a shield, there's little reason to not improve your damage via a 2-handed weapon.

5) I have never seen an Argent Vow paladin before this thread, I whipped out my copy of divine power and boy do they look good. Can their vow dps really be sustained at higher levels though?

As I understand it, Ardent Vow pallies can remain among the top DPR's in the game. But, really, if you are looking for the most damage that can be done... the Ranger is where it's at. However, that Ranger is also incredibly boring to play. Here's an example.

DM, round 1: "Ranger, what do you do?"
Ranger: "I focus my vengeance at the target, making him my quarry and then use Twin Strike to shoot two arrows at it / I use Twin Strike to stab it twice."
DM, round 2: "Ranger, what do you do?"
Ranger: "I focus my vengeance at the target, making him my quarry and then use Twin Strike to shoot two arrows at it / I use Twin Strike to stab it twice."
DM, round 3: "Ranger, what do you do?"
Ranger: "I focus my vengeance at the target, making him my quarry and then use Twin Strike to shoot two arrows at it / I use Twin Strike to stab it twice."
... and so forth. You'll also typically do a lot of interrupting, but my god it gets boring. But if you are looking for an easy class to break yourself in with, go with the Ranger.

*edit* Super-ninja'ed! I blame the servers coming down and then me forgetting about the fact that I had a post waiting to be added.

Gralamin

2009-12-31, 04:58 AM

Err, this is a horrible question to try and answer. Nobody is sure how the Whirling Barbarian works yet (and yes -- I used the blanket word of "nobody" because it applies). Here's why: the general rule is that same bonuses don't stack. If you have two weapons, let's say a long sword and a dagger (I know this is horrible, but bear with me), and you have Weapon Focus with each... WF gives a +1 feat bonus to damage. Now, since a feat bonus doesn't stack with a feat bonus, this means you would only get the biggest and not both. Is this what WotC meant? Well, probably not. But we can't be sure. And this goes far beyond Weapon Focus and into the realm of other feats, damage boosters, etc. You will probably only get the critical damage from the main hand. I think I remember reading a CustServ response about that.

Anyway, the short answer is this: Yes, they are awesome. Good defenses, barbarian damage... but nobody knows how to calculate that damage. Please, give your DM a break and look elsewhere (and I hate to say that, seeing as I love the Barbarian... but it's just easier on everyone. And if you played one, you'll set yourself up for possible disappointment when a FAQ is released about how exactly they want those multi-weapon damage attacks to work.)
What I suggested above is likely the closest to RAW there is currently, but even then I had to make assumptions. We know that, by RAW, some things (Static Mods apply once, Enhancement bonuses don't stack so it doesn't matter whether both apply or not), but not others. We do need a good ruling on how these are supposed to work, since it isn't clear with the rules currently.

However, that Ranger is also incredibly boring to play. Here's an example.

DM, round 1: "Ranger, what do you do?"
Ranger: "I focus my vengeance at the target, making him my quarry and then use Twin Strike to shoot two arrows at it / I use Twin Strike to stab it twice."
DM, round 2: "Ranger, what do you do?"
Ranger: "I focus my vengeance at the target, making him my quarry and then use Twin Strike to shoot two arrows at it / I use Twin Strike to stab it twice."
DM, round 3: "Ranger, what do you do?"
Ranger: "I focus my vengeance at the target, making him my quarry and then use Twin Strike to shoot two arrows at it / I use Twin Strike to stab it twice."
... and so forth. You'll also typically do a lot of interrupting, but my god it gets boring. But if you are looking for an easy class to break yourself in with, go with the Ranger.

Oh yes. Ranger's are as boring as they get. Good for Watcher type players though, who aren't really there for the action. They can be effective without too much contribution.

Jack_Banzai

2009-12-31, 07:48 AM

The big draw for two-handed weapon fighting, as others have said, is the increased weapon damage. But don't overlook the Power Attack feat. A lot of people poo-poo it as it subtracts 2 from your attack roll for minimal gains - but the gains increase quite a bit at Paragon and Epic tiers, particularly with two-handed weapons. For a 2 point hit, my level 16 Greatspear Kensei adds 6 to any attack he likes. With my particular build, his basic attack does 1d10+23 damage. It's not striker damage, but it's a hard enough hit to make the DM think twice about monsters risking his Combat Challenge.

mage1337

2009-12-31, 11:55 AM

Thanks so much for the quick responses. This thread is really interesting for me - I'm learning actually learning a lot more about the vaguries of 4E through my barbarian questions - and that is a GOOD thing!

If any one is still out there, I have a couple more questions for you about 4E in general:

1) If an enemy hits you targetting AC, and you trigger a minor interrupt as a response to raise your AC, does the attack still hit? I ask because I see a lot of powers that seem like "dodges" and add bonuses to AC AFTER a hit but before damage is rolled.

2) More about the Barbarian: If Twin Strike is so amazing for a ranger, is it viable to be a half-elf and grab Twin Strike for a Whirling Barbarian? That would seem to be the best of both worlds? Or just straight multi-class?

3) Leading to another question: Is multi-classing as flat out TERRIBLE as it looks? Given that class power penalties and damage scales so tightly, even between strikers and controllers, I can almost never see a reason to multi-class? Are there any amazingly obvious combinations I'm missing?

Thanks in advance!

Alex Star

2009-12-31, 12:24 PM

This assumes 1st level mundane items 1 action point.

Bugbear + Mordenkrad + Rage of Thundering Hooves + Avalanche Strike

Bugbears are oversized so your Mordenkrad does 2d8. Cause it's large.

Standard Action - rage of thundering hooves - 6d8+modifier damage

Move action - go through enemy square using rage effect to gain 1[w] bonus on next attack

Action Point - Avalanche Strike - 8d8+ modifier damage

total of 14d8+(modx2) in 1 round at first level

Saintjebus

2009-12-31, 12:39 PM

1) If an enemy hits you targetting AC, and you trigger a minor interrupt as a response to raise your AC, does the attack still hit? I ask because I see a lot of powers that seem like "dodges" and add bonuses to AC AFTER a hit but before damage is rolled.

2) More about the Barbarian: If Twin Strike is so amazing for a ranger, is it viable to be a half-elf and grab Twin Strike for a Whirling Barbarian? That would seem to be the best of both worlds? Or just straight multi-class?

3) Leading to another question: Is multi-classing as flat out TERRIBLE as it looks? Given that class power penalties and damage scales so tightly, even between strikers and controllers, I can almost never see a reason to multi-class? Are there any amazingly obvious combinations I'm missing?

Thanks in advance!

1. Yes. That's the way those powers are meant to be used.

2. Yes. completely viable. Bear in mind that the Dillettante power is an encounter power. But with twin strike, which is one of the most overpowered At wills ever, yes, it would do well.

3. Multiclassing depends on the class you're multiclassing into. Unless you're in a class that dumps int, wizard is a very good 1st level multiclass feat. Pretty much, any multiclass feat that gives you an extra encounter power=good, any that doesn't = bad. Whether or not you swap powers later depends more on what you want your character to do, rather than power level- most of the powers are balanced by level.

Obvious combinations? Half-Elf Anything MC Wizard gets an extra two encounter powers at level one. Pick Thunderwave for your wizard power.

Alex Star

2009-12-31, 12:49 PM

to add to the hurt my barbarian laid down the mordenkrad is brutal 1 so your damage range isn't 2-16 it's 4-16 meaning your average damage per 1[w] is 10 instead of 9 so 14d8 does 14 more damage on average for an average damage of 80+(modx2) in one round.

My lvl 1 barb just 2 shot your lvl4 defender and is currently swift charge+howling striking your healer and you didn't even get to act yet.

PS: yeah my DM hated Gekk the Bugbear Barbarian and regretted letting me take control of an npc after my bard died

Draz74

2009-12-31, 01:05 PM

1) If an enemy hits you targetting AC, and you trigger a minor interrupt as a response to raise your AC, does the attack still hit? I ask because I see a lot of powers that seem like "dodges" and add bonuses to AC AFTER a hit but before damage is rolled.
The key is to look at the action type of the power: "Immediate Reaction" or "Immediate Interrupt"? If it's "interrupt" (which I'm pretty sure the powers you're asking about are), then yes, using them can retroactively change the event that triggered them (like making you get Missed instead of Hit).

There are Immediate Reaction powers that trigger by your getting hit, like a low-level Ranger power that lets you move away from your attacker. That one won't prevent the hit that triggered it.

3) Leading to another question: Is multi-classing as flat out TERRIBLE as it looks? Given that class power penalties and damage scales so tightly, even between strikers and controllers, I can almost never see a reason to multi-class? Are there any amazingly obvious combinations I'm missing?

Practically every optimized 4e build multiclasses at some point. Whether it takes additional feats to swap powers is a much iffier question, depending on the specific build. But practically every character can find it worthwhile to at least spend one feat to pick up an additional encounter power (or something else nice, like 1/encounter Sneak Attack) and an additional trained skill. Note that multiclassing is strictly better than taking the Skill Training feat.

Mando Knight

2009-12-31, 01:47 PM

Note that multiclassing is strictly better than taking the Skill Training feat.

Also note that the restriction on class-specific multiclass feats doesn't include such feats for the same class.Thus, if you're a Barbarian that wants both of the Fighter multiclass feats (1/encounter +1 to hit and 1/encounter interrupt basic attack against shift), all you need are the prerequisite ability scores.

mage1337

2009-12-31, 07:04 PM

Again guys, thanks for all the help! I'm actually getting really excited about playing 4E because of this thread. Rather than a strictly simpler 3.5, I'm starting to see it as a system in its own right that just required time to get the supplements to grow its complexity.

Since everyone is so helpful, I'm going to keep the general questions coming:

1) How important are non-AC defenses in 4E? Without save or die powers, and given the generally beefier nature of the PC classes, is it particularly important to have, say, a good will defense? Are some defenses much better than others (eg my initial guess is AC>Reflex>Will>Fortitude)?

2) Similar, what defenses are best to target in 4E? Glancing through the MM, it looks rare to bump into a monster without a level appropriate AC, but will varies wildly. Should my barbarian be looking for a good way to target a non-AC defense? Which one is best? Are there cool magic items to do this, or is it worth using feats/paragon classes?

3) For a barbarian, I see a lot of powers (particularly rampage) that trigger when you drop an enemy to 0 hp. But enemies look so tough compared to their 3.5 counterparts - does this really happen reliably? Can I expect to be popping one enemy/round? And do these power trigger from minions?

4) Similarly, how concerned should I be about my saving throws? As a barbarian, is it worth picking up a utility power to buff them, or should I just assume that the party leader will help me out when if I'm trouble?

5) Lastly, healing surges. How many is too many? I can only second wind once an encounter, and a typical party faces only about 4-6 encounters/day. So are healing surges over, say 12 (assuming one second wind and one heal an encounter) completely useless? Is there something I'm missing?

Thanks again guys!

Saintjebus

2009-12-31, 07:20 PM

1) It depends on what you are fighting. Alot of Undead target NADs(Non Ac Defenses). Also, spellcasting enemies of all types will as well. Figure that Melee=AC, Arcane: Will or Reflex, Divine: Fort or Reflex. That's not a comprehensive list, and is quite a generalization. It's not always that way, just often.

2) Will and Refles tend to be lower than the others. Con and strength both boost fort, so pretty much all beefy monsters will have high Fort. Some enemies switch it up though. NADs are almost always lower than AC, however. Powers make up for it by having powers that target NADs have a lower attack bonus(by not having a proficiency bonus).

3) I have not run barbarians in play, so I do not have personal knowledge of how they work. However, the minion mechanic makes it so that if your barbarian connects on a minion, it is auto-death(minions only having 1 HP). Bigger enemies, while having much more HP, can still be taken down in a single round by a couple of strikers ganging up on it( see above analyses for example and imagine the example Barbarian, Avenger, and Ranger all in one party).

4) The importance of saving throws depends on the monsters that you are fighting. If your dm throws a lot of controllers or monsters with a DoT(Damage over Time) attacks, yes, getting a bonus on ST is good. It's not the greatest, though(kind of situational), so if there's a better utility power, take it instead.

5) You can never have too many surges. Remember, you can spend as many surges as you want when you have a short rest. Also, some of the cleric and warlord healing powers make you spend a surge. Some of them don't, though, so make sure that you read the power carefully. "As if you spent a surge" means that you don't spend a surge- it just gives you the value of the healing power. That being said, I've seen groups that run out of surges on a regular basis, and I've seen groups that never drop below half surges on anyone. YMMV on that one.

Edit: Yes, it is better to think of 4e as a totally different game. It's wrapping is similar, but 3.x and 4e are entirely different animals. [/edition rant]

Asbestos

2009-12-31, 07:21 PM

Frenzied Berserker can possibly deal enough damage to kill any opponent with Final Confrontation. High enough?

If the DM lets the monster keep taking the bait.

Mando Knight

2009-12-31, 07:29 PM

1) How important are non-AC defenses in 4E? Without save or die powers, and given the generally beefier nature of the PC classes, is it particularly important to have, say, a good will defense? Are some defenses much better than others (eg my initial guess is AC>Reflex>Will>Fortitude)?
Reflex generally has damage-focused powers, but Will and Fortitude targeting powers generally have nasty rider effects. In terms of frequency (IIRC), the attacks go AC>Ref>Fort>Will, with AC being targeted by nearly every enemy, but in terms of importance, I'd put the defenses at roughly AC>Fort>Will>Ref due to the higher number of Stun and Daze powers linked to Fortitude and Will as compared to mostly area-based damage powers from Reflex. Almost all of the Domination powers target Will, but they're a lot rarer than Fortitude attacks.

2) Similar, what defenses are best to target in 4E? Glancing through the MM, it looks rare to bump into a monster without a level appropriate AC, but will varies wildly. Should my barbarian be looking for a good way to target a non-AC defense? Which one is best? Are there cool magic items to do this, or is it worth using feats/paragon classes?
NADs, except for a Brute's Fortitude and the odd character's Will, are generally lower than their AC. Grab a few NAD-targeting powers, since the magic items that do this sort of thing are generally 1/day things.

You don't have much of a choice as a Barbarian as to which defenses you target. You've got a few on each NAD, but it's more important to look for synergy than just NAD-targeting, since the vast majority of your powers target AC.

3) For a barbarian, I see a lot of powers (particularly rampage) that trigger when you drop an enemy to 0 hp. But enemies look so tough compared to their 3.5 counterparts - does this really happen reliably? Can I expect to be popping one enemy/round? And do these power trigger from minions?
Not one enemy per round (it's balanced as an encounter power), but as a Striker with an oversized weapon, you can expect to be popping enemies quite a bit more frequently than any other class.

4) Similarly, how concerned should I be about my saving throws? As a barbarian, is it worth picking up a utility power to buff them, or should I just assume that the party leader will help me out when if I'm trouble?
Depends. Humans should never go without picking up a feat that lets them boost their saving throws, but there isn't much you can do otherwise. If it's an encounter power, go for it unless you've got a Charisma Paladin or a Leader with a decent number of +Save powers.

5) Lastly, healing surges. How many is too many? I can only second wind once an encounter, and a typical party faces only about 4-6 encounters/day. So are healing surges over, say 12 (assuming one second wind and one heal an encounter) completely useless? Is there something I'm missing?If you're a Barbarian or a Defender with decent Con, you usually don't need to worry about that. Not taking the Durable feat is fine for them, unless in play you find yourself running out of surges (like a Paladin using Lay on Hands a lot).

oxybe

2009-12-31, 10:03 PM

for an idea what a barb might look like, here's my current level 12 human Rageblood Barb/Calm Fury

str 21
con 19
dex 9
int 13
wis 11
cha 13

HP: 110, surges daily 14
initiative: 9 (-1 dex, +6 half level, +4 feat)

Defenses
AC 29 (10 +6 half level +2 barb agility +4 con +3 armor +3 ench +1 feat)
Fort 29 (10 +6 half level +2 class +5 str +3 ench +1 racial +1 feat +1 armor)
Ref 24 (10 +6 half level +2 barb agility +1 int +3 ench +1 racial +1 feat)
Will 22 (10 +6 half level +1 cha +3 ench +1 racial +1 feat)

feats:
toughness (+5 HP/tier)
hide armor expertise (Con instead of Dex/Int for hide armor)
Durable (+2 surges)
Weapon Expertise (axes +1 to hit)
Weapon Focus(Axe +1 damage/tier)
improved initiative (+4 initiative)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Executionner Axe)
Hide Armor Specialization (+1 AC)
Paragon Defenses (+1 NADs)

Gear of Note
+3 Bloodclaw Executionner's Axe
+3 necklace
+3 Rageblood Earthide Armor (Masterwork Hide, +1 Fort)
Iron Armbands of power (+2)
Skull Mask(level 5)
Sandals of Precise Stepping (+2 acrobatics, athletics, stealth)
Handy Haversack (full of mundane gear)
an Awesome Gong

all in all he's VERY solid and can off-tank with the group's pally. if only my schedule change didn't make me work monday nights :smallfrown:

Jack_Banzai

2009-12-31, 11:26 PM

tcrudisi

2010-01-01, 12:54 AM

1) How important are non-AC defenses in 4E? Without save or die powers, and given the generally beefier nature of the PC classes, is it particularly important to have, say, a good will defense? Are some defenses much better than others (eg my initial guess is AC>Reflex>Will>Fortitude)?

Well... that's a loaded question. Generally speaking, the answer is "very important." For a Warden, they could (generally) care less. For a Barbarian? Well, expect to have two bad NADs (unless you go the Whirling route), without much you can do about it until level 21.

2) Similar, what defenses are best to target in 4E? Glancing through the MM, it looks rare to bump into a monster without a level appropriate AC, but will varies wildly. Should my barbarian be looking for a good way to target a non-AC defense? Which one is best? Are there cool magic items to do this, or is it worth using feats/paragon classes?

Okay, I once made a spreadsheet that incorporated every monster from the first Monster Manual book. I've not updated it to include MM2 or monsters from other sources. But... that's a pretty big sample size. Here were the results:

Will was 3.3 points lower than AC.
Ref was 2.8 points lower than AC.
Fort was 1 point lower than AC.

This, of course, varied by the monster. But ti does show that targetting Will is the best option.

Yes, you should look for ways to target multiple defenses. Sometimes you really don't want to target AC. Other times, targetting Fort or Will is a bad idea. Diversity is a good thing, especially once you get a feel for which monsters have good defenses in what areas. Good luck doing this, however. As a Barbarian, it's fairly easy to pick up some Fort-targetting powers. It's ridiculously hard to target Ref and Will. I don't really know of any items (off-hand) that allow you to target Ref and Will that are worth the gold paying for them.

3) For a barbarian, I see a lot of powers (particularly rampage) that trigger when you drop an enemy to 0 hp. But enemies look so tough compared to their 3.5 counterparts - does this really happen reliably? Can I expect to be popping one enemy/round? And do these power trigger from minions?

Rampage triggers when you score a critical hit. There's a level 1 daily that allows you to make a MBA (melee basic attack) when you drop a foe. Yes, enemies generally are tougher than 3.5, but so are the PCs. As a striker, you will drop more foes than the other members of your party. But expect to take the foes down to 3-4 hit points and cry as the Cleric gets the killing blow. But hey - dead is dead. And sometimes the other classes need some of the glory too ;)

4) Similarly, how concerned should I be about my saving throws? As a barbarian, is it worth picking up a utility power to buff them, or should I just assume that the party leader will help me out when if I'm trouble?

The more I play 4e, the more I love saving throws. When I started off, I wasn't a big fan of them. But let me tell you -- I will (typically) go out of my way to improve my saving throws now. It's hard to do, but oh so worth it. The higher in level you get, the more important this becomes. At the heroic tier, it isn't such a big issue. Eventually, though, it becomes huge.

5) Lastly, healing surges. How many is too many? I can only second wind once an encounter, and a typical party faces only about 4-6 encounters/day. So are healing surges over, say 12 (assuming one second wind and one heal an encounter) completely useless? Is there something I'm missing?

Well, if you are a Con-secondary class (like Rageblood), don't worry about it. You'll have enough. However, it also depends on the DM. I once ran in an LFR game where the DM focus-fired onto me... and I had a starting Con of 18. I was out of healing surges and less than 100% health going into the 3rd and final fight. Yeah, it was that rough. I went down quickly in the final fight... and as the only striker in that party, it definitely hurt. Typically, however, you will have enough. And you'll notice that people learn to play around how many healing surges they have. I've seen the tank and Barbarian get low on healing surges, so the Wizard steps up to take some hits, since he had almost all his surges left. It's funny, but it happens. This game is based around party mechanics.

Dimers

2010-01-01, 01:03 AM

You don't have much of a choice as a Barbarian as to which defenses you target. You've got a few on each NAD, but it's more important to look for synergy than just NAD-targeting, since the vast majority of your powers target AC.

That's one good reason to multiclass (to go back to an earlier topic). You can spend feats to switch to a wider array of powers, picking from any number of classes that match your preferred ability scores. In addition to creating wholly different types of effects (be a backup healer, create area effects, add new battlefield-control options), you can target different defenses much more often.

tcrudisi

2010-01-01, 01:30 AM

That's one good reason to multiclass (to go back to an earlier topic).

The main reason I multi-class is to gain access to another classes feats. There is some really good synergy that opens up from the feats alone. Yes, sometimes it is worth taking a power or two, but for the most part, I find the feats to be the best thing about multi-classing.

Mando Knight

2010-01-01, 01:33 AM

That's one good reason to multiclass (to go back to an earlier topic). You can spend feats to switch to a wider array of powers, picking from any number of classes that match your preferred ability scores. In addition to creating wholly different types of effects (be a backup healer, create area effects, add new battlefield-control options), you can target different defenses much more often.

Note that Weapon-based Will powers are much rarer than Reflex or Fortitude ones, and generally don't belong to classes that deal damage as their primary objective. Paladins especially have NAD-smashing attacks, but they tend to disable rather than damage. Even then, Weapon-Will attacks don't start appearing in force until Paragon and tend to be Charisma-based powers (which is alright for a Barbarian MCing Paladin, since they're likely to be Thaneborns and have decent Cha).

mage1337

2010-01-01, 08:26 PM

Amazing responses again guys. SOOOO helpful. Here comes another volley of questions since these answers rock so much:

1) Multiclassing. Some of the comments made on this thread suggests it is amazing - particularly to pick up synergistic off class feats. Does someone have some obvious examples of this type of synergy so I can see what to look for? Right now no feats are jumping out to me for a Barbarian to grab from another class.

2) How important is racial selection beyond matching ability score bonuses to class requirements? Almost every racial power looks "useful" - but are some deceptively so? Are there particular races people feel are just stronger than the rest for strikers, etc?

3) Kind of a strange question, but how important is "planning" to a successful character in 4E? In 3.5, if you didn't know what you wanted your char to look like in ten levels, you were toast. You'd miss prestige class entry requirements, feat prereqs, and generally be pretty poorly optimized. In contrast, 4E looks a bit more "take it as it comes" - with paragon paths and epic destinies being very easy to qualify for. How far ahead should I plan out my character to be safe? Are there any nasty "tough to qualify for but amazing" feats I should be watching out for?

4) Lastly, any advice for how to play strikers in 4E that is counter-intuitive? Anyone have some great play advice I should bear in mind?

Thanks again guys!

Pramxnim

2010-01-01, 08:58 PM

To answer your further questions:

1) An obvious example is synergy with the Fighter class. Small Barbarians multiclassing into Fighter get access to the amazing Small Warrior's Defense feat, which gives you +2 AC, +2 Reflex when wielding a Versatile weapon in 2 hands, which boosts your AC and Reflex even further, making small barbs a bit more evasive than their medium counterparts.

Dragonborns get the cools as beans feat Draconic Arrogance which really benefits Pressing Strike and all the other Barb powers that push or knock prone (there are quite a few), which makes PS competitive with Howling Strike in terms of DPR. At Epic, you get to add Overpowering Charge to the mix, which lets you knock an enemy prone on a charge. suddenly you've added 7-10 damage on your charge attacks (Assuming you've kept your Str at a minimum of 24 when you reach Epic level). Add a bunch more if you're a Rageblood heavy in Con and taking the Iron Vanguard Fighter PP, which gives your Con on damage to attacks that push or knock prone.

Eladrin get Fey Charge, which is quite fun to use, if not that optimal without Eladrin Swordmage Advance.

All barbs get access to Unstoppable Charge at Epic level, which is really good for the charge-happy barbarian.

2) Race selection is important not only for stat allocation, but also for feat selection. It depends on the type of Barbarian you're going for really, but generally, races with a +2 to Str are preferred. Dragonborn, Goliath, Warforged, Half-Orc etc. all make great barbarians, but Halflings also make surprisingly decent ones.

3) Planning is not as important as it was in 3.5 thanks to retraining, but it's still useful to look ahead. Feat prerequisites are one of the things you should keep in mind when allocating stats. For games that plan to go to epic levels, starting with an odd number in your main stat(s) is not that good unless you want to boost your secondary stats a lot. High Con allows you access to Axe and Hammer feats, while a high Dex is useful for those going for Heavy Blades and Spears. Polearm users need a Wisdom investment and people planning to multiclass into Fighter might want a starting 11 Wisdom to get Battle Awareness by Epic (before that you can just use Student of the Sword). A weapon mastery feat is almost required at epic for weapon-using strikers, and you want the stats for that. The requirements are generally 21-17 in 2 stats or 19-19 in 2 stats, so keep that in mind while planning.

4) Don't be afraid to provoke OAs if you've got a defender marking the enemy you're moving away from. 4e is a team game, and strikers can contribute to the team not only by dealing damage, but by helping others do their job as well. If you feel you can take down a monster in one hit, don't be afraid to spend daily or encounter power to do so, as one enemy down is a whole lot less for a party to worry about. Even more so as a barb, since you get additional benefits from killing enemies.

Find ways to boost your charges and/or critical hits. Find ways to boost your critical hit rate, as barbarians benefit a lot from getting critical hits.

Grynning

2010-01-01, 09:03 PM

1) Multiclassing. Some of the comments made on this thread suggests it is amazing - particularly to pick up synergistic off class feats. Does someone have some obvious examples of this type of synergy so I can see what to look for? Right now no feats are jumping out to me for a Barbarian to grab from another class.

As the guide I linked earlier states, Fighter Multiclass is very good for barbs. Both of the feats have useful benefits, and Fighter Paragon Paths are generally better than the Barbarian ones. Warlord and Paladin MC's aren't bad either if you really like a power from one or the other (Str/Cha synergy).

2) How important is racial selection beyond matching ability score bonuses to class requirements? Almost every racial power looks "useful" - but are some deceptively so? Are there particular races people feel are just stronger than the rest for strikers, etc?

Generally, racial stat bumps tell you what classes they're good at. Racial abilities and feats tend to synergize well with classes that their stat bumps help, but stat bumps aren't everything. For instance, Humans have some of the best racial feats in the game for any class, Genasi are good at classes that may not use one of their stat bumps due to the cool racial powers, etc.

3) Kind of a strange question, but how important is "planning" to a successful character in 4E? In 3.5, if you didn't know what you wanted your char to look like in ten levels, you were toast. You'd miss prestige class entry requirements, feat prereqs, and generally be pretty poorly optimized. In contrast, 4E looks a bit more "take it as it comes" - with paragon paths and epic destinies being very easy to qualify for. How far ahead should I plan out my character to be safe? Are there any nasty "tough to qualify for but amazing" feats I should be watching out for?

Planning is important, yes, but it's a lot easier than in 3rd edition, because most of the requirements for stuff you want are things you'd pick up regardless, and are pretty clearly laid out. Just have a good idea of where you want your character to go. The character builder is a great tool for this, since you can check out your character at higher levels if you want. Also, don't be afraid to use retraining! If something isn't working out for you, drop it, and get something better when you level. A lot of builds that you see on Char Op plan on retraining at certain levels (mostly for feats, since you can get higher level feats that way).

4) Lastly, any advice for how to play strikers in 4E that is counter-intuitive? Anyone have some great play advice I should bear in mind?

Playing a striker is pretty darn intuitive - hit it until it dies. One thing to remember is that you don't do damage unless you hit, so feats like Weapon/Implement Expertise are pretty invaluable, as are situational hit bonuses (like Action Surge, and things that help you get combat advantage). Remember too that the highest damage power isn't always the best - sometimes the other effects of a power (like dazing, knocking prone, or penalties to enemy defenses) make it a better choice than that big smack that's the same level, because it well help you and your party do more damage on the next round.

I can't stress enough that the guide I posted earlier (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19648686/Destruction_Manifest:_The_Barbarians_Handbook) is one of the best things you can read for a lot of these questions. Even if you decide not to play a barbarian, it gives you a really good idea of how to pick stuff out to match the class you're playing.

Mando Knight

2010-01-01, 09:26 PM

Dragonborn, Goliath, Warforged, Half-Orc etc. all make great barbarians, but Halflings also make surprisingly decent ones.

*cough*Mordenkrad*cough*

Halflings are a step behind most other races for being a Barbarian, only really having an advantage over Gnomes. They might have secondary stat matchups for Thaneborn and Whirling Barbarians, but it's not enough to counter the fact that Mordenkrad is the best weapon on the board and they can't use it.

Kobold and Halfling barbarians are gimmick characters, since Barbarians generally depend on massive Weapon dice to keep their damage up where they're famous for. Avoid them if you don't have access to Primal and Martial Power. A Halfling's racial feats give it a couple niche uses, but should not be considered for a first character, since outside of those niches, they're way weaker than a Half-Orc for a Whirling build or Dragonborn in a Thaneborn build, and should never be considered for a Rageblood or Thunderborn build.

A caveat with Half-Elves: They look nice for Dilettente-grabbing that oh-so-juicy Twin Strike, but they've got less synergy with Whirling than they do with the other three builds. If you're playing for stat synergy, you've still got a wide set to choose from: Paladin, Warlord, Fighter, and Warden all have at-wills that you might find useful and synergize with your primary stat, and Sorcerer, Bard, and Warlock all have powers that can function with your off-stat (though only Warlock for Rageblood/Thunderborn builds).

Saintjebus

2010-01-01, 09:26 PM

I'm skipping question 1 because I'm not completely up to date on Barbarian options.

2) How important is racial selection beyond matching ability score bonuses to class requirements? Almost every racial power looks "useful" - but are some deceptively so? Are there particular races people feel are just stronger than the rest for strikers, etc?

All of the races are more powerful than their 3e counterparts. Since there are no penalties, any race can do any class. If you are going for a power boost, yes, you want a race that at least gives you a plus to at least one of the primary stats for the class. It's not required, though. You can make a serviceable class out of any race- it may not be min-maxed though. As far as useful racial powers go, halfling and elven racial powers are pretty much agreed to be the best, with the eladrin teleport coming in a close second. The tiefling racial power is only useful situationally. The dragonborn racial can be ridiculous with the proper feats.

As far as a race for strikers, it depends on the class and build. Elves, as you might imagine, excel at Archer rangers. Tieflings are good at one of the Warlock pacts(can't remember which one- don't have books available).

3) Kind of a strange question, but how important is "planning" to a successful character in 4E? In 3.5, if you didn't know what you wanted your char to look like in ten levels, you were toast. You'd miss prestige class entry requirements, feat prereqs, and generally be pretty poorly optimized. In contrast, 4E looks a bit more "take it as it comes" - with paragon paths and epic destinies being very easy to qualify for. How far ahead should I plan out my character to be safe? Are there any nasty "tough to qualify for but amazing" feats I should be watching out for?

Knowing what you're going to do in 10 levels is helpful, but not required to the same extent that it is in 3e, mainly because of the retraining mechanic. That being said, some builds depend on the retraining mechanic, and you need to know when to retrain them when powers/feats/etc. become obselete. Most feats are relatively easy to qualify for, the biggest requirement being stats. Wizard MC requires 13 int- so if you're playing a high dex character that has spread out his other stats to get higher defenses, you might have issues qualifying(for example).

Also, once you choose a class/paragon path/epic destiny, that choice cannot be unmade. Anything else can be retrained the next time you level(but only one at a time!) but those are it.

4) Lastly, any advice for how to play strikers in 4E that is counter-intuitive? Anyone have some great play advice I should bear in mind?

Strikers are the most intuitive role to play. It boils down to pick the biggest opponent. hit him. Hit him again. drop him. Move to the next biggest opponent.

That being said, from what I understand, barbarians are a little more complex to play, with their rage mechanic being closer in similarity to the shapechange dailies than the other strikers power mechanic. Basically, the daily power will last to the end of the encounter, and usually grants different attack options/powers in the encounter that you use it.

oxybe

2010-01-01, 10:05 PM

my tips:

pick a target and stay on it. barbs aren't defenders so they have a hard time forcing an enemy to stay near them, but by gord can they catch up. lots of barb powers can be used on a charge and they're pretty mobile in their light armor, so it's easy to run up to a straggler and chop him to bits.

on the downside, it's also easy to get caught up in the frenzy of combat and get stuck behind enemy lines... which isn't always the best place. unless you've got hide armor expertise (substitute Con for Dex/Int in AC while in hide armor), your AC isn't going to be something to brag about. decent, but not brag-able. expect to take quite a few hits.

the other thing is barbs have a hard time getting out of combat. you can charge and smash to your violent little black heart's content, but if you get in too deep behind enemy lines or you're cut off from your healer... hope your fighter, pally, warden or whatnot can get to you in time and try to draw some of the fire away. barbs have a hard enough time disengaging from combat... which is why it's sometimes VERY nice to have prone/stun/ect... powers and not use them immediately when combat starts. this is where multiclassing into something like fighter really gives you benefits... just enough control to get you out of a messy situation. on the plus side, fighter MC gives you nice PP & EDs that are quite destructive.

it's VERY easy for a barbarian to go nova and then peter out in the long run. i think they work best if you oscillate between pure attack & defense. go in for a few rounds, hang back for heal or two, go in, go back, in, back, ect... you're not a glass cannon and you can afford quite a few hits before you start really hurting but that doesn't mean you should run naked with a "kill me" sign.

get a feel for the flow of the combat, go to where there is bloodshed happening, make it worse, pull back a bit to reorient your murder-o-meter and go in once more. like most melee strikers, you work best with a buddy. me? it's the paladin in most situations.

mage1337

2010-01-02, 10:32 AM

Thanks all for this great thread! My questions are all answered - but please keep an eye out for a future [4E] thread I plan to post after the first game with more questions!

Best all, and happy new year!

Justin28715

2013-07-04, 12:00 AM

Well, let's compare that to a level 1 Barbarian. Let's say he uses Avalanche Strike with a Fullblade (3d12 + 10) damage and crits. That's 46 + 1d12 (average 52.5 damage). Of course, he just crit, so now he gets a free basic attack, which will do ~1d12 + 6 damage, for another ~12.5 damage. In this round, without an action point, a level 1 Barbarian just did 52 + 2d12 damage, which amounts to 54-76 damage. If the target died (and it probably did), this means a free charge attack, which will do 1d12 + 1d6 + 6 damage. Then, the Barbarian spends an Action Point and does another 3d12 + 6 damage... god help us if he crits on any of those attacks too. Rampage is only usable once a round, but on a burst round like this, it hardly matters. Stuff dies. I've seen a Barbarian do over 100 points of damage in a single round at level 1. My Avenger could do nothing but watch enviously as the Barbarian (which I had built - haha) cut foes in half.

When it comes to pure "burst" damage, nobody tops a Barbarian when things go right. Not even the Ranger. But when it comes to steady, every-round damage, the Ranger is tops.

Hey all, I'm just starting to play dnd, and have recently rolled a Golaith rage blood barb. I'm confused on how in this scenario the poster get 2d12 rolls after critical. I understand you get an extra roll after crit for a high crit weapon, but where does the other roll come from? Thanks In advance.

tcrudisi

2013-07-04, 01:23 AM

Hey all, I'm just starting to play dnd, and have recently rolled a Golaith rage blood barb. I'm confused on how in this scenario the poster get 2d12 rolls after critical. I understand you get an extra roll after crit for a high crit weapon, but where does the other roll come from? Thanks In advance.

Ah. I should have clarified it a bit better.

3d12 was 36 damage with +10 making it 46. He then did an extra 1d12 damage for critting.

Because he crit, he got an extra melee basic attack. That does 1d12 + 6 damage (5 from strength, 1 from weapon focus).

So from that one crit, he did 46 + 1d12 + 1d12 + 6 ... or 52 + 2d12.

This was 3 years ago and, while he was optimized for the time, he's certainly not what I'd consider optimized now. (The player I built it for just wanted to do as much damage as possible without caring if his defenses were atrocious.)

So, now that I've said that, I'd like to say two more things:

1. Holy thread necromancy, batman!
2. Because this is such horrible thread necromancy, I expect this thread to get locked. Feel free to begin a new thread asking any questions you like or to get help building your Barbarian.

Justin28715

2013-07-04, 03:05 AM

Ah. I should have clarified it a bit better.

3d12 was 36 damage with +10 making it 46. He then did an extra 1d12 damage for critting.

Because he crit, he got an extra melee basic attack. That does 1d12 + 6 damage (5 from strength, 1 from weapon focus).

So from that one crit, he did 46 + 1d12 + 1d12 + 6 ... or 52 + 2d12.

This was 3 years ago and, while he was optimized for the time, he's certainly not what I'd consider optimized now. (The player I built it for just wanted to do as much damage as possible without caring if his defenses were atrocious.)

So, now that I've said that, I'd like to say two more things:

1. Holy thread necromancy, batman!
2. Because this is such horrible thread necromancy, I expect this thread to get locked. Feel free to begin a new thread asking any questions you like or to get help building your Barbarian.

Ya sorry for being noobish, just didn't read anywhere that you got an extra roll for a crit other than having an high crit weapon. Thanks again. Edit damn see it now Rampage, guess I skipped over that lol.