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Mystic Muse
2009-12-31, 05:39 PM
I'm looking at the Fiend blooded PRC and was wondering something. If I have a +2 from intelligence and instead put 6 ranks into knowledge arcana does that count as having 8 ranks or do I actually need to put 8 skill ranks into it?

Tyndmyr
2009-12-31, 05:39 PM
You have to buy the listed number of skill ranks.

Tadanori Oyama
2009-12-31, 05:40 PM
The whole point of those is to provide a level limitor, isn't it? I mean, you can't get 8 ranks until your 5th level, ergo...

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-31, 05:41 PM
A rank is when you spend skill points on a skill. If you've spent eight skill points on a class skill, you have eight ranks.

The entire point of "x ranks in skill" prerequisites is to restrict PrCs to level 6 and above - you'll notice it's mostly 8 ranks in a few skills.

Deth Muncher
2009-12-31, 05:42 PM
You have to buy the listed number of skill ranks.

Oh fo' real? I always assumed that if your total of skill modifier + purchased ranks + random bonuses = your total ranks.

Tokiko Mima
2009-12-31, 05:42 PM
You need the ranks, unfortunately. Bonuses do not count as ranks. So when you see a skill rank requirement, you can read it as 'Have (skill X) as class skill, and be ECL (rank number - 3)'

So the lowest level you can possibly qualify to enter Fiend Blooded based on that is 5, which is in line with most PrC's.

oxybe
2009-12-31, 05:45 PM
if a PrC asks for 8 ranks in a skill you need to have put 8 actual skill points into it.

your skill's total mod = stat + ranks + misc (feats, racial, class, etc). so a first level wizard could easily have a total of +8 to his Know (arcana): 18 int (+4), 4 ranks.

it's still only 4 ranks though.

this is normally done to put a limit on when you can properly enter a PrC. most of them have you qualifying at 5th level, the earliest you can get 8 ranks in a skill (max = HD+3), and jumping into the PrC at 6th.

kamikasei
2009-12-31, 05:48 PM
Explanation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm).


Oh fo' real? I always assumed that if your total of skill modifier + purchased ranks + random bonuses = your total ranks.

No, your skill modifier is the sum of your skill ranks, ability modifier, and other bonuses.

taltamir
2009-12-31, 05:49 PM
another thing... taking the feat skill focus does not count towards it.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-31, 05:50 PM
Oh fo' real? I always assumed that if your total of skill modifier + purchased ranks + random bonuses = your total ranks.

If this were the case, I'd be entering PrCs at level 2 routinely.

Draz74
2009-12-31, 06:07 PM
Yeah ... bonuses in skills do not count towards rank requirements, and skill points spent on cross-class skills only count half (since you only get 1 rank for every 2 skill points with cross-class skills).

Flickerdart
2009-12-31, 06:10 PM
Another thing to note is that some skills may have drastically lower requirements than level+3, but that's because they'd normally be cross-class skills. You may also need abilities not gained until a certain level by certain classes. Without some creative dipping, it can sometimes be impossible to enter a class by the level that the largest skill requirements dictate.

Signmaker
2009-12-31, 06:11 PM
The whole point of those is to provide a level limitor, isn't it? I mean, you can't get 8 ranks until your 5th level, ergo...

Believe it or not, there are a rare few early entry techniques that solve that. Naturally, don't expect them to ever slide past a DM, but they do (sadly) exist.

But otherwise, ranks = skill point investment, and is independent from your ability modifier.

Flickerdart
2009-12-31, 06:13 PM
Believe it or not, there are a rare few early entry techniques that solve that. Naturally, don't expect them to ever slide past a DM, but they do (sadly) exist.
No, you can never get more skill points in a skill than HD+3. Not even then. Early entry tricks are used to bypass mostly spell requirements.

Signmaker
2009-12-31, 06:14 PM
No, you can never get more skill points in a skill than HD+3. Not even then. Early entry tricks are used to bypass mostly spell requirements.

Oh, YOU don't have to be the one that gets the ranks. But that's all I have to say on the matter, because it really doesn't matter for this thread.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-31, 06:14 PM
No, you can never get more skill points in a skill than HD+3. Not even then. Early entry tricks are used to bypass mostly spell requirements.

Said early entry tricks involve aquiring HD. See also, Dusk Giant.

Flickerdart
2009-12-31, 06:15 PM
Said early entry tricks involve aquiring HD. See also, Dusk Giant.
Acquiring HD means that you're a higher-level character, and have bypassed nothing at all.

Tanaric
2009-12-31, 06:17 PM
Acquiring HD means that you're a higher-level character, and have bypassed nothing at all.

Generally speaking, it involves temporary HD from Inspire Greatness, plus Psychic Reformation.

I hear rumor of a book somewhere that gives you bonus skill ranks. It's not exactly easy on the pocketbook though.

olentu
2009-12-31, 06:19 PM
Acquiring HD means that you're a higher-level character, and have bypassed nothing at all.

Presumably the trick is to acquire and then loose HD after rearranging skill points. Though I can not recall how they get around the hard cap on skill ranks of level + 3.

Draz74
2009-12-31, 06:20 PM
Acquiring HD means that you're a higher-level character, and have bypassed nothing at all.

Not when the HD in question are temporary, and are gained via different means than by getting XP ...

Tyndmyr
2009-12-31, 06:21 PM
Acquiring HD means that you're a higher-level character, and have bypassed nothing at all.

Well...yes. For that point in time. You then dump the extra hit die off post-leveling.

Now, yes, if you lose said prerequisites for a class, you lose the bennies, but this sorts itself out in time, as you naturally get enough ranks to make the prereqs.

Signmaker
2009-12-31, 06:22 PM
Presumably the trick is to acquire and then loose HD after rearranging skill points. Though I can not recall how they get around the hard cap on skill ranks of level + 3.

Arguably the simplest method is via a single spell: Leech Ghost Skill. Ghostwalk web supplement, uses the ghost mechanic found in the book (LA 0 ghosts, whee), you can bind a ghost to you and use its skill ranks as your own, whichever is higher. It lasts days/level, and is thus low-priority enough to maintain it until you actually DO qualify for the PrC in question, in which case you can stop using it. And it completely bypasses the issue of the HD cap.

As I said before, your DM won't like the prospect at all.

Flickerdart
2009-12-31, 06:22 PM
My only consolation for being wrong is how many of you ninjaed each other to point it out.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-31, 06:24 PM
Well...yes. For that point in time. You then dump the extra hit die off post-leveling.

Now, yes, if you lose said prerequisites for a class, you lose the bennies, but this sorts itself out in time, as you naturally get enough ranks to make the prereqs.

Why would you lose the prerequisites? The rules say nothing about losing skill ranks when losing temporary HD.

Tanaric
2009-12-31, 06:25 PM
Why would you lose the prerequisites? The rules say nothing about losing skill ranks when losing temporary HD.

"When faced with a decision on which the rules are not clear, why would you choose the obviously broken way?"

"Because this... is... CHAROP!"

olentu
2009-12-31, 06:25 PM
Arguably the simplest method is via a single spell: Leech Ghost Skill. Ghostwalk web supplement, uses the ghost mechanic found in the book (LA 0 ghosts, whee), you can bind a ghost to you and use its skill ranks as your own, whichever is higher. It lasts days/level, and is thus low-priority enough to maintain it until you actually DO qualify for the PrC in question, in which case you can stop using it. And it completely bypasses the issue of the HD cap.

As I said before, your DM won't like the prospect at all.

I would consider that a different trick then the gaining and loosing HD trick.

Edit: I believe the rules say that max ranks one can have in a class skill is equal to level + 3. Presumably some trick is used to get around this that is not like the ghost trick where the temp HD trick does not matter.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-31, 06:26 PM
"When faced with a decision on which the rules are not clear, why would you choose the obviously broken way?"

"Because this... is... CHAROP!"

Precisely.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-31, 06:26 PM
Why would you lose the prerequisites? The rules say nothing about losing skill ranks when losing temporary HD.

Technically, yes. I've heard some people argue that you can't exceed your new, lower maximum, though.

Not that it matters. You'd either recast spells as necessary or use one of the tricks like the ghost binding one. It's solvable either way.

olentu
2009-12-31, 06:30 PM
Technically, yes. I've heard some people argue that you can't exceed your new, lower maximum, though.

Not that it matters. You'd either recast spells as necessary or use one of the tricks like the ghost binding one. It's solvable either way.

Well the binding ones would seem to make the other unnecessary as one is using the ghosts skills and not their own.

On the other hand I suppose one could keep the HD permanently but that sort of does nothing.


On the other hand if someone can remember how the cap is bypassed that would presumably work.


Edit: Well now that I think about it I suppose one could keep the extra HD until one qualifies with the regular levels as I do not recall that HD or skill ranks are lost when one looses perquisites for a prestige class.

Flickerdart
2009-12-31, 06:33 PM
Well, the intention as I see it is that you level to the appropriate level and then get rid of the HD, which dissipates your skill ranks but you still qualify due to having built those skills up in the meantime.

Signmaker
2009-12-31, 06:35 PM
Well, the intention as I see it is that you level to the appropriate level and then get rid of the HD, which dissipates your skill ranks but you still qualify due to having built those skills up in the meantime.

Yep. PrCs check your current progress, not your permanent record, so you only need the trick for the levels you don't technically qualify for.

olentu
2009-12-31, 06:37 PM
Apparently I should edit faster.

Signmaker
2009-12-31, 06:39 PM
Apparently I should edit faster.

No such luck, because what we actually do is stare at your keystrokes from across the street, wait for you to reach for the mouse as if clicking 'Submit Reply', and then spamming whatever retort we feel like before you realize what has happened.

That, or we're just very bored people this New Year's Eve.

Bakkan
2009-12-31, 06:58 PM
I hear rumor of a book somewhere that gives you bonus skill ranks. It's not exactly easy on the pocketbook though.

The only source for this I am aware of is the feat Primary Contact in Cityscape, which has a prerequisite of another feat in that book, and explicitly gives 1 bonus skill rank, which can take you above the normal maximum for your HD. However, the combination of

some fairly serious roleplaying requirements
the investment of two feats, of which the first can be considered mediocre
the fact it saves you only one level (two if it's a cross-class skill)
the fact that it can only be used for one skill

means that it is almost never worth it. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a practical or theoretical optimization build that used it.

Signmaker
2009-12-31, 07:03 PM
means that it is almost never worth it. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a practical or theoretical optimization build that used it.

Early Skill-entry is actually rarely used in posted builds, I've found. I have yet to see a single one. Understandable I suppose, since people still throw fits about various casting early-entry techniques, 'legal' or 'not'.

Nice catch though. I'll have to keep that in mind for ToS, until Doc Roc reads this thread, crunches numbers, and bans it. =P

Flickerdart
2009-12-31, 07:06 PM
Many characters need those first 5 levels to pick up crucial class features from base classes. Casters need spells to qualify early, and non-casters lose out on class features by taking PrCs (most of the time, anyway).

Mystic Muse
2009-12-31, 07:14 PM
So I need to be level 13 in order to qualify for fiend blooded in other words?

Signmaker
2009-12-31, 07:16 PM
So I need to be level 13 in order to qualify for fiend blooded in other words?

I see nothing requiring 16 ranks, unless you're cross-classing the requirements, and are thus limited by cross-class maximums. If that's the case, might want to fix that.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-31, 07:17 PM
Sorceror doesn't get knowledge the planes as a class skill.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-31, 07:18 PM
Sorceror doesn't get knowledge the planes as a class skill.

One level of Wizard or Bard will fix that right up for you.

Make sure to pick useful low-level spells so they're not just dead weight.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-31, 07:24 PM
One level of Wizard or Bard will fix that right up for you.

Make sure to pick useful low-level spells so they're not just dead weight.

I'd reccomend bard. Just because it makes you eligible for Sublime Chord, if you later opt for it.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-31, 07:26 PM
I'd reccomend bard. Just because it makes you eligible for Sublime Chord, if you later opt for it.

Plus, Cha synergy.

Signmaker
2009-12-31, 07:26 PM
Sorceror doesn't get knowledge the planes as a class skill.

There are quite a few methods for attaining X skill on your class skill list, feel free to poke and prod around for em. Yuki suggested one, and the easiest fix for any human build is Able Learner + Factotum = Every skill is a class skill, always. I don't quite think it'll fit your plans though.

olentu
2009-12-31, 07:27 PM
Well it is a knowledge skill so that is one of the easier ones to get through a feat.

Tanaric
2009-12-31, 07:28 PM
Pick up the Cosmopolitan feat from some Faerun book? Get a skill as a class skill forever, plus a +2 bonus on it.

This is obviously inferior to Factotum/Able Learner, but I assume you don't want to lose caster levels.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-31, 07:28 PM
There are quite a few methods for attaining X skill on your class skill list, feel free to poke and prod around for em. Yuki suggested one, and the easiest fix for any human build is Able Learner + Factotum = Every skill is a class skill, always. I don't quite think it'll fit your plans though.

Able Learner is level 1 only, so that doesn't help if this is a character that's already in play.

olentu
2009-12-31, 07:29 PM
Pick up the Cosmopolitan feat from some Faerun book? Get a skill as a class skill forever, plus a +2 bonus on it.

This is obviously inferior to Factotum/Able Learner, but I assume you don't want to lose caster levels.

I think that was changed to just a bonus on a few skills.

Tanaric
2009-12-31, 07:31 PM
I think that was changed to just a bonus on a few skills.

Use the version that doesn't completely suck then, since they're totally different. Considering how many ways there are to get skills in class, burning a feat on it should be okay with anyone.

LibraryOgre
2009-12-31, 07:33 PM
another thing... taking the feat skill focus does not count towards it.

Hmmm... if it did, would it make skill focus worth it, if not a prerequisite?

Tyndmyr
2009-12-31, 07:35 PM
Hmmm... if it did, would it make skill focus worth it, if not a prerequisite?

Eh, skill focus is situationally worthwhile. Not for every skill, but it's great for incantatrix, for example. You need crazy spellcraft to maximize applied metamagic for free, and to reliably persist everything.

Likewise, UMD is a good skill focus feat, and of course, we have diplomancy.

Bakkan
2009-12-31, 07:36 PM
Sorceror doesn't get knowledge the planes as a class skill.

If you have a feat and ideally some skill points to spare, consider Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion. You get any Knowledge as a permanent class skill, and then whenever you're fighting a creature corresponding to a Knowledge in which you have ranks (even one rank), you can make a Knowledge check to gain a minimum of +1 attack and +1 damage versus that type of creature.

olentu
2009-12-31, 07:38 PM
Use the version that doesn't completely suck then, since they're totally different. Considering how many ways there are to get skills in class, burning a feat on it should be okay with anyone.

So why do it improperly when it can be done with another feat properly.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-31, 09:57 PM
Skill Training (UA) works, sort of.
Apprentice: Spellcaster (DMG2) can get you a Knowledge skill in-class,
Apprentice: Philosopher (DMG2) can do the same.
Education (ECS, among others) can get you all Knowledge skills.

All of these, except the first, are 1st-level only. Knowledge Devotion is your best bet.

Oh, wait, I forgot that FC1 feat. Keeper of Forgotten Lore. Gives you Knowledge (the planes) and Spellcraft as class skills, and gives a minor bonus with them. As an Abyssal Heritor feat, the fluff matches nicely.


I hear rumor of a book somewhere that gives you bonus skill ranks. It's not exactly easy on the pocketbook though.

Lords of Madness page 214, the Codex Anathema. +2 inherent Int, -2 Wis, 5 ranks in Dungeoneering, 2 ranks in Planes and Arcana. Costs about 34 megagrams of copper coins.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-31, 10:20 PM
Use the version that doesn't completely suck then, since they're totally different.
Actually, that would be against WotC's update rule. If a new (X) comes out, and has the same name and type as some old (X), the new one invalidates the older version. (Example: Expert Tactician in Complete Adventurer must be used instead of the much more powerful feat of the same name from Song and Silence.) Anything WotC decides is an official replacement also invalidates older content. (Example: Sword and Fist's Circle Kick is replaced by Roundabout Kick in Complete Warrior.) You can't cherry-pick among old and new versions.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-31, 10:25 PM
Well, you can, it's just houseruling. In a strictly RAW debate, it's invalid, but in a casual thread it's worth suggesting once as a potential argument to the DM.

Mad Wizard
2009-12-31, 10:32 PM
This looks like a good opportunity for me to clear up a related question I've had. Say a PrC requires 8 ranks in a skill to enter it. Does this mean you can take the first level at level 5, when you get the 8th rank, or at level 6, when you have enough ranks at level up?

Draz74
2009-12-31, 10:36 PM
Level 6 would be the answer.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-31, 10:37 PM
Leveling up has a strict order - you pick the class first, then assign skills, then feats. So at level five, you can qualify for a feat that requires eight ranks in a skill, but not a class.

Otherwise, how the hell would you know how many skill points you have to assign?

Flickerdart
2009-12-31, 10:51 PM
So, you cannot become, say, a Blackguard at 6th level without a source of bonus feats, because you cannot take the last of the requisite feats at 6th?

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-31, 10:53 PM
Exactly right. Which is pretty bad when you think about it - it's a PrC for Paladins! How are they meant to have bonus feats? Be a human? Pah!

Tyndmyr
2009-12-31, 10:56 PM
Leveling up has a strict order - you pick the class first, then assign skills, then feats. So at level five, you can qualify for a feat that requires eight ranks in a skill, but not a class.

Otherwise, how the hell would you know how many skill points you have to assign?

Yeah. Normally, you choose order most beneficial to player...except in cases where it's laid out. Leveling up is unfortunately one of those. Skill points definitely have to be after choosing class.