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rezplz
2010-01-01, 10:25 PM
So the first wizard that I ever made was an illusionist - of course, since I didn't know what I was doing, I did pretty horrible and died before too long. I tried a couple other times and never did well, the whole time ignoring the naggings of one of my friends to "Just play an evoker!". Granted, it's been a few years since I gave an illusionist a fair try, and me and said friend have also learned a bit more about character optimization since then. So now I've been thinking I might give an illusionist another try.

But anyway, even though I think I'd do a bit better now, I was hoping to get a few general tips on how to be an effective illusionist. If possible I'd like to keep it to core, since that's what I know best, and avoid any cheese.

I was also wondering if it was just the DM that was stopping me from being effective. As an example, one time at lower levels (I think we were somewhere from 5-7?) my gnome illusionist and my buddy who was playing... I forget... had a bunch of werewolves that were trying to find us so they could kill us. I try to cast silent image to make it appear like a whole bunch of valiant knights were coming out of the trees, to try to get the werewolves to run off so we could escape. (In hindsight I should have thought of something a bit more frightening. Like a dragon) But the werewolves just stood there, and watched the illusion. I ended up getting out of there still with expeditious retreat, but my friend wasn't so lucky since the werewolves decided to all but ignore my illusion.

So yeah, where was I? Oh yeah, general illusionist tips on how to use illusion spells effectively would be great.

HCL
2010-01-01, 10:43 PM
Hmmm, well one thing I like to do is make an illusion of a big monster. And that monster attacks the enemies, but it always swings wide and misses by a little bit but dodges incoming attacks at the same time. So the monsters feel like it is threatening them even though its not.

Otherwise: Prestige class into shadowcraft mage :)

Tyndmyr
2010-01-01, 10:43 PM
Go over the top with illusions. I mean, the worst that happens is if they interact with it and get a save. Make it sufficiently crazy that it's hard to justify it being ignored. Dragons. Beholders. Whatever seems craziest at the moment.

Stack miss chances. Mirror image, blur, etc. Illusion has some good stuff. Invisibility is also fun.

That said, pack dispel magic constantly. True Seeing and See Invisibility are annoying as heck.


Also, consider shadowcraft mage.

rezplz
2010-01-01, 11:06 PM
I'll probably look into shadowcraft mage, especially since the function and fluff is pretty much exactly what I'd want.

A couple questions though: On stacking miss chances, it does seem like it'd be really powerful. But it also seems to me like, by the time you cast all the miss chance spells, the battle would already be over. If you didn't have a few buff rounds beforehand, would it be useful to spend combat rounds casting miss chances on yourself?

Also, while I wasn't planning on doing it, I was just wondering how the killer gnome works. Shadowcraft mage makes an illusion 10% real per spell level used, and powerful shadow magic adds an extra 20%, but then I've heard people talking about fireballs and miracles that are 140% real, and I was wondering how that works?

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-01, 11:09 PM
There are other boosters to the Killer Gnome, including ways of using Heighten with less of an adjustment cost.

And the best miss chance spell is Greater mirror Image from the PHBII, and it's an Immediate action. :D

robotrobot2
2010-01-01, 11:10 PM
Even if you don't want to go into shadowcraft mage optimization, pick up shadow conjuration/evocation. Those two spells are your solution to the "permanent true seeing" type enemies. For your other illusion spells, however, it really depends upon how your DM reacts to them. Ask him about it and you'll probably get a better understanding of what to do.

Yuki Akuma
2010-01-01, 11:11 PM
Consider taking the illusionist variant class features from Unearthed Arcana - Chains of Disbelief is especially good, as it stops people from being able to see through your illusions when they make their Will save.

Also, Shadowcraft Mage.

The Gilded Duke
2010-01-01, 11:44 PM
I'd suggest avoiding Shadowcraft Mage. It can get pretty broken. http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5638.0

Instead, the Gnomish racial substitution levels from Races of Stone are good in themselves. Also, Master Specialist from Complete Mage.

A few things to note about illusions:
1. They can block line of sight.
2. They take a standard or move action to "interact" with or to "disbelieve"
3. Mindless creatures are unable to disbelieve.

Just making the image of a scary monster leaves too much up to chance:
They might think you are an illusionist so just ignore it anyway.
They might be immune to fear.
They might think they can take it.
They might be fanatics.
There are no morale checks in 3.5

So instead of a big scary monster, you can use your 4+caster level 10 foot cubes to make what appear to be adamantine boxes filled with an odorless smoke like substance that blocks sight much like a fog cloud would.

Sure the monsters might try and make a save to disbelieve, but they can only do so on their turn. Until it is there turn they have no line of sight, cannot see anything, cannot take attacks of opportunity and have lost their dex bonus to ac.

And then on their turn they take a move action to attempt a will save. Even if they make the save, this prevents them from taking full round actions.

Also, Illusion is one of the easiest schools to have great saves.
Some things to keep in mind
The Image line are not mind affecting.
The Image line is not a fear effect.

Gnome gives +1 to DC
Spell Focus gives +1 to DC
Greater Spell Focus gives +1 to DC

Master Specialist gives +2 to DC

If using Forgotten Realms:
Gnomish regional feat gives +1 to DC
Shadow Weave gives +1 to DC

True Seeing

True Seeing is the major difficulty with illusion. However there are ways to get around it, and ways to overpower it.

True seeing has a range of only 120 feet.
The Image line has a range of 440+ feet.
True Seeing is a level 5 spell. Not everyone is going to have it.
True Seeing can be dispelled.

Now to completely mess up True Seeing:
The level 10 gnome illusionist level gives your illusion spells protection from divination. For someones divination spell to see through your illusion they have to beat you in a caster level check, as if they were trying to dispel your illusion. A single divination spell can only defeat up to one illusion in this way.

You can get a similar ability from one of the Shadow Weave Feats, I forget the name right now, however it only functions against Weave users.

Still, forcing your enemy to use a 5th level spell and then succeed on two caster level checks just to see through your 0th level spell is fun.

Yes. 0th level spell


Gnome illusionist substitution level pushes many illusions down a level, including silent image. Making Silent Image a 0th level spell. A 0th level spell that can shut down 4+level enemies for 1 or more turns and make them lose their dex bonus during this time.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-02, 12:02 AM
For dealing with True Seeing:Invisible Spell, from Cityscape. The spell is invisible to most people, but anyone with True Seeing sees the normal visual effects of the spell. So they see what normal people would see if the spell wasn't Invisible. This gets fun when combined with, say, Silent Image. Or Invisibility.

rezplz
2010-01-02, 12:08 AM
Duke: Thanks for all the advice. About the part where you mentioned using silent image (As a 0-level spell, sweet!) to do those adamantium boxes of gas and stuff... Can I cast the spell so that my party automatically disbelieves the illusion? Something tells me that'd be up to the DM's call, but hopefully that would let the party rogue sneak attack for all he's got. And if the monsters think they're trapped in a box, they can't run away, either... hahaha.

The Gilded Duke
2010-01-02, 12:19 AM
That is a DM call. There is a long series of articles, I believe it is linked in the Shadowcraft mage guide I linked at the top of my post. Basically, there are two possibilities:

Either:
You tell your party, hey this is an illusion and then your party recognizes it immediately.
Or you tell your party, hey this is an illusion, then your party gets +4 on their saves.

Now, there may be some ways to get around it if your DM chooses the second option. You could have the 10 foot adamantine cube just look like adamantine on the inside, where as on the outside it looks like a big glowing red target that lines up to where the enemy is.

Nothing says the illusion has to be the same from all angles.

In the game I'm playing an Illusionist with, the GM is using the first ruling. Whenever I cast an illusion, my character says a code phrase in gnomish that the rest of the party knows ahead of time.

Now even if your gm uses the second ruling, it is still a 0th level fog cloud / wall of stone that you can see through.

Also, that invisible spell trick is awesome. I'm going to have to pick up that feat next level. It is +1 spell slot right?

The Gilded Duke
2010-01-02, 12:20 AM
Oh, one thing thats fun. You can use the image line to look like various spells you can actually cast. One battle I took out the drow evoker with a casting of Black Tentacles. The next round I hit the mooks with a silent image of black tentacles, they didn't try to disbelieve.

Also, the skill trick to concentrate as a swift action for a round is real useful.

Optimystik
2010-01-02, 12:27 AM
For dealing with True Seeing:Invisible Spell, from Cityscape. The spell is invisible to most people, but anyone with True Seeing sees the normal visual effects of the spell. So they see what normal people would see if the spell wasn't Invisible. This gets fun when combined with, say, Silent Image. Or Invisibility.

While wonderful in theory, I wish anyone good luck getting any Invisible Invisibility tricks past their DM.

Though if their DM allows Shadowcraft Mage in the first place they probably deserve what they get.

The Gilded Duke
2010-01-02, 12:35 AM
I think the idea isn't to do an invisible invisibility, but an invisible major image. The Major Image starts out invisible and perfectly see through. True Seeing instead of seeing through it, actually makes it visible, according to the wording in Cityscape.

So instead of using invisibility to not be seen, you block the line of sight of the True Seer with images that only they can see.

graeylin
2010-01-02, 12:38 AM
it all depends, of course, on your level, the length of the battle, and your opponent.

I have found a simple trick, if you have time, is to cast an illusion spell to simulate something damaging.. say a fireball. If the foe fails their save, they take some damage, perhaps. If they make it, they know you are casting blanks.

then, follow up with either a second illusion (if you have time and distance) or a real fireball... If the foe takes the time to disbelieve, argue with the DM that would mean they get no reflex save, since they didn't think it was real, why would they have jumped/dodged/sought cover?

if you are to the level of programmed illusion, set it to replicate chain spelling on a lightning bolt, or fireball. cast one fireball, the programmed illusion goes off, and makes it appear to be chaining. the heat or shock from the real one will add convincing details to the bystanders that theirs are real too.

Use an illusion to change the form of your damage spell... cast fireball and make it look like an ice storm. some of the illusion spells continue without much concentration for several rounds, so use it like an instant programmed illusion, toss the first spell, then the damage buster next round, and let the first spell continue to "cover it". I find illusions work best when there is just enough doubt as to what is real and what isn't. cast an illusion of a floor covered in spikes.... and toss some caltrops down for effect. They step on a caltrop, that reinforces the rest of the illusion. they ignore the illusion, they will likely disbelieve the caltrops too... to their dismay.

Illusionary decoys are good too.. if you think about it, mirror image is just silent image. Make ten of your fighter suddenly appear in the line...move them back and forth like a 3 card monte game. Make your fighter's greatsword appear to the enemy like a dagger. Make his dagger appear like a glaive, and keep them from entering too close.

Illusions of stone walls are good for hiding. Illusions can fake a web spell, to channel enemies into a single file line. Want to be a necromancer without all the dead bodies? Skeletal minions, for a simple major image spell.

Optimystik
2010-01-02, 12:38 AM
Invisible Major Image I have no problem with; I was specifically referring to Invisible Invisibility.

However, I can't imagine many DMs being enamored with the idea of invisible illusions in general.

rezplz
2010-01-02, 12:40 AM
I dunno if it's completely accurate, but I looked it up by google search and D&D wiki says that invisible spell feat apparently can't be applied to illusion spells. But you can't use it if you have illusion banned. Which is kinda weird.


Anywho. I've been looking at various variants, and I kinda like the shadow shaper variant. (Hide skill w00t w00t) But it would stop me from taking some of the gnome sub. levels, specifically the ones at 5 and 10, since they're in place of a bonus feat. The one at 5 I could live without, but I did really like the one at 10. The insiduous illusions feature. I was wondering how you guys think the Shadow Shaper variant measures up against the Insiduous Illusions variant?

Optimystik
2010-01-02, 12:44 AM
I dunno if it's completely accurate, but I looked it up by google search and D&D wiki says that invisible spell feat apparently can't be applied to illusion spells. But you can't use it if you have illusion banned. Which is kinda weird.

Mistaken on both counts. The feat is in Cityscape, and carries no such restrictions.

ex cathedra
2010-01-02, 12:46 AM
You can get an Insidious Illusions effect with a one level dip in Shadow Adept, from PGTF.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-02, 12:46 AM
I dunno if it's completely accurate, but I looked it up by google search and D&D wiki says that invisible spell feat apparently can't be applied to illusion spells. But you can't use it if you have illusion banned. Which is kinda weird.That's wrong. The exact text:
INVISIBLE SPELL [METAMAGIC]
You can make your spell effects invisible.
Prerequisite: Any metamagic feat.
Benefit: You can modify any spell you cast so that it carries no visual manifestation. All other aspects of the spell, including range, area, targets, and damage remain the same. Note that this feat has no bearing on any components required to cast the enhanced spell, so the spell’s source might still be apparent, depending on the situation, despite its effects being unseen. For example, a fireball cast by someone with this feat could be made invisible in the moment of its detonation, but everyone in the area would still feel the full effect (including the heat), and any flammable materials ignited by the explosion would still burn visibly with nonmagical fire. Those with detect magic, see invisibility, or true seeing spells or effects active at the time of the casting will see whatever visual manifestations typically accompany the spell. A spell modified using the Invisible Spell feat uses a spell slot of the spell’s normal level.Applies to anything. The real issue isn't even Invisible Invisibility, it's invisible Summon Monster, or Invisible Wall of Stone.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-01-02, 12:52 AM
That's wrong. The exact text:Applies to anything. The real issue isn't even Invisible Invisibility, it's invisible Summon Monster, or Invisible Wall of Stone.

And on that note we have the best castle for this devilish little bastard, with carious invisible walls, passage ways, treasure chests, and, of course, thrones. For extra kicks, give him invisible-spell made clothing.


EDIT: I has teh dumb. This advice is going elsewhere.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-01-02, 12:57 AM
EDIT: Wow, tonight is not my night. Yeah, stupid double-post on my part.

Zaydos
2010-01-02, 12:58 AM
I mentioned hearing how screwy Invisible Spell could get to my roommate (soon to be DM) so he told me he was waiving the prerequisite metamagic. I don't know why. Then again he nixxed the invisible invisibility (using that it doesn't stop the spell from seeing through the invisiblity as normal) or summons... not Wall of Stone, though. Although he decided it needed stone to be on... Still invisible blockade and Earthen Shield from Dragonlance should be fun. Plus Invisible Solid Fog.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-02, 02:30 AM
I dunno if it's completely accurate, but I looked it up by google search and D&D wiki says that invisible spell feat apparently can't be applied to illusion spells. But you can't use it if you have illusion banned. Which is kinda weird.

Avoid D&D wiki. It has a lot of crap in it that's either poorly marked homebrew, badly copied non-SRD rules, or some wierd mixture of the same.

I won't say that everything in there is junk, but treat it with caution.

erikun
2010-01-02, 04:03 PM
Yeah, I wouldn't rely on Invisible Illusions. True Seeing will "all things as they actually are" and "sees through illusions". So against an Invisible Major Image, the True Seer would know that there is a spell there (see through the Invisible Spell feat) and also see through the illusion (see through the Major Image spell). Invisible Fog Cloud, or Invisible Conjurations in general, are a bit more useful.

The trickiest part of illusions is that so many effects are dependant upon the DM. The DM could just say that the creatures don't believe it is real, that they saw you cast and through it was magic, that they made their Spellcraft and know it's an illusion, that they're willing to charge through it and take damage anyways, etc. A lot of this can be mitigated by disguising your spellcasting (Invisibility, hidden, Still Silent, Disguise Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#disguiseSpell) for bards), by creating purely visual illusions that opponents don't interact with (illusionary walls against archers, illusionary concealment), or by using Shadow spells.

Shadowcraft Mage is good for gnome illusion cheese - Silent Image fireballs for actual damage! Ultimate Magus is handy for adding a bit of Bard and using metamagic on the fly - that's how I normally get Disguise Spell on my illusionists. Arcane Thesis (PHB2) will allow you to lessen the metamagic penalities by one spell level per feat applied, so Arcane Thesis (Silent Image) means you can fill your spell slots with Stilled Silent copies. Just note that Arcane Thesis applies to only one spell, and doesn't work with Heighten Spell.

Speaking of which, Heighten Spell is a handy way to increase DCs of lower level spells. Be careful about using too much of the above cheese, though - Shadowcraft Mage plus Arcane Thesis (Silent Image) plus Heighten, Still, and Silent means that you could fill your entire known spell list with semi-real spells which do actual damage, can do whatever you wish them to, and require neither word nor movement from you to cast. Your DM will probably bring out the banhammer on that, though.

The various wizard substitution levels can't be mixed. That is, if you're using the Gnome Illusionist substitution (say, for 0th level Silent Image) then you can't use the Unearth Arcane Illusionist substitution (say, for Chains of Disbelief).

The Gilded Duke
2010-01-02, 06:10 PM
Instead of using metamagic cost reducers just take Master Specialist to 10th level.

All illusion spells are silent, stilled and eschewed for free at no increase in caster level. You can enter Master Specialist at 4th level so its easier to get then most capstones.

Yuki Akuma
2010-01-02, 06:17 PM
Instead of using metamagic cost reducers just take Master Specialist to 10th level.

All illusion spells are silent, stilled and eschewed for free at no increase in caster level. You can enter Master Specialist at 4th level so its easier to get then most capstones.

...Three times per day.

Everyone seems to miss this. It only works three times per day!

Keld Denar
2010-01-02, 06:17 PM
Greater Esotericas are only usable 3x/day. Illusion doesn't contain anything that directly contradicts this, so...yea.

ScM actually makes ALL of your spells stilled and silent, all the time. And thats not even the best feature of it!

evil-frosty
2010-01-02, 07:07 PM
ScM actually makes ALL of your spells stilled and silent, all the time. And thats not even the best feature of it!

ScM doesnt still your spells, it's just silent and extended. Still pretty nice though.

Slayn82
2010-01-02, 09:56 PM
And dont forget: Illusory enemies can be used to flank, Help other and take AoOs. Or you can use true seeing and then have your illusions to be justaposed over invisible or camoufled enemies to prevent the miss chance. Not explicitly said by RAW, but all very logical steps.

And using ilusions is probably the only way an BBEG can dialogate with PCs without becoming kebab, or vice versa. Giant talking heads or letters in the sky for broadcasting urgent news to an entire city.

Drekk
2010-01-02, 10:13 PM
Illusions are some of the most freeform spells in the game and general rules headaches so read up on what they can and cannot do! Especially since quite a bit of the advice here is actually illegal under the rules as I understand them (and there's enough arguing to drive this point home).

Personally, I love them, though my experience with specifically Illusionist Wizards runs towards DMing and using them as bad guys rather than playing one as a char but I'd love to someday.

Illusion is one of those schools WoTC figured was "bad" because ppl prefer Evokers and such, so as has been said, it's real easy to cheese your DC's sky-high and get all sorts of abilities to deny people the +4 bonus on saves, avoid true seeing, turn your illusions quasi-real (or even realer than the real thing if you wanna play Shadowcraft shennanigans), and so forth. My players were so pissed they weren't making their Will Saves vs. Illusionary Feast with rolls of 25+ :smallsigh:

It will take a lot more homework too to really, REALLY read through your illusions so you know exactly what you're capable of.

2xMachina
2010-01-03, 04:29 AM
If you can juxtapose an image over invisible enemies, then you can also lock an image over them.

Say, some kind of blindfold that don't touch them (like a bag over their whole body, that doesn't touch them). They can't interact with it, so will have to specifically disbelieve it. They're now blinded. Choose something that muffles sound too, and you've deafened them too.

Shakebag
2014-02-12, 09:11 PM
Some suggestions for the use of Illusions follow,

but first I would like to state that for Illusions to really work well in a game a player you should be imaginative in their use of spells and have a DM who is willing to give an innovative player an even break. It's very easy to dismiss a good idea.

The power of these spells is to mislead and pray upon the normal perceptions of the targets of the illusion. Players should be thinking about how their characters spells affect the minds of the monsters and npc's. Illusions will work best on the gullible, the stupid and the superstitious.

Some of the best spells for illusions are cantrips and 1st level spells. The ones that spring immediately to mind are Flare, Light, Ray of Frost, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Ghost Sound, Dancing Lights, Unseen Servant, Cause Fear and Sleep.

Consider this,
A rural village, filled with typically superstitious folk. An illusionist sets up the scam by spreading a few rumours that a strange glowing creature has been attacking travellers on the road. One night he creates a glowing vaguely man-shaped form with his Dancing Lights spell on the outskirts of town letting a few locals see it and adding their voices to the rumours. He does this for a few nights, cranking up the tension by moving objects close to the intended path of the glowing humanoid form as he makes it wander around, with intelligent use of an 'Unseen Servant'. The figure will appear to have substance and strength. Add in some Ghost sounds. Have the Unseen servant rattle a few windows, Cast a cause fear, or sleep on anyone that gets too close. While the distraction is going on, some associates are robbing a house on the other side of town. Better still, the Illusionist 'takes on' the seemingly dangerous foe and 'beats it'. He becomes a temporary hero and trusted ally.

Have the Unseen servant manipulate a suit of clothes or a 'habit' to make it appear as if they're worn. Let it carry a scythe too. It can carry up to 20lbs in weight. The locals will think death has come to collect a soul. Add a fear spell or magic missile from a suitable position. Sleep the targets and rob them while they're prone.

Take the same scenario, summon some creatures to cause some real damage. Add the 'Will-o-wisp' like glowing spheres from the dancing lights spell too, just to create atmosphere.

Alternatively, have that Unseen Servant manipulate a suit of clothes and a sword. Let it distract a foe in a fight, make feints with the sword and be hit and to appear to be immune to physical attacks. After all, only area effect spells can destroy it. It doesn't do much for the clothes though. Still there is always the mending spell, I suppose.

I haven't even got onto using Silent Image, ventriloquism, invisibility, animate rope or charm person. Maybe you will?

nedz
2014-02-12, 10:23 PM
I quite like terrain modification.

A Fog cloud to obscure vision
A Plank over a pit
A Swamp between you and your opponents
Some obvious trap to deter pursuit
Fake walls and corridors to provoke unwise attacks

Most of these either deter interaction or are revealed to be false when it's too late.

Some more situational ones.

Being charged by cavalry: Suddenly a line of pikemen appears. Now the riders may not believe in the illusion, but the horses will. Most likely they will refuse and throw the riders.

Facing a Vampire: Glowing holy symbol should put them off. You could use running water, garlic, daylight, etc.

Stupid flying monster: Catch it in a net, see if it bounces. This won't work on smart critters, but not all flying things have good will saves.