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Sereg
2010-01-03, 11:06 PM
Cold Iron Dragon
DRAGON
Environment Any mountains
Organization Wyrmling, very young, young, juvenile and young adult: solitary or clutch (2-5); adult, mature adult, old, very old, ancient, wyrm or great wyrm: solitary, pair or family (1-2 and 2-5 offspring)
Challenge Rating Wyrmling 4; very young 5; young 7; juvenile 10; young adult 13; adult 15; mature adult 18; old 20; very old 21; ancient 23; wyrm 24; great wyrm 26
Treasure Triple standard
Alignment Usually Lawful Good
Advancement Wyrmling 8-9 HD; very young 11-12 HD; young 14-15 HD; juvenile 17-18 HD; young adult 20-21 HD; adult 23-24 HD; mature adult 26-27 HD; old 29-30 HD; very old 32-33 HD; ancient 35-36 HD; wyrm 38-39 HD; great wyrm 41+ HD
Level Adjustment Wyrmling +5, Very Young +6, Young +6

You see a wingless dragon with a forward-pointing horn above each eye and another on the tip of its snout. A line of spikes runs down its back. The muscles of its limbs bulge beneath its shiny scales.

Cold iron dragons are the descendents of a dragon population which sacrificed most of their magical abilities in pursuit of physical power and the ability to counter the magic of others. This has resulted in them being rather distrustful of magic and highly militaristic. They also tend to be rather gruff compared to most metallic dragons and those that arenít good are usually aggressive and highly territorial. They also tend to be show offs, especially when it comes to acrobatics. Some researchers believe that this is overcompensation due to their inability to fly. Cold iron dragons tend to be long and flexible with muscular legs. On hatching, they have dull grey scales which gain a metallic sheen as they get older. The older dragons eventually start developing a reddish tint. Cold iron dragons love to climb and jump and therefore tend to lair in craggy areas. Cold iron dragons will occasionally use their alternate form ability to join a humanoid military, they enjoy the opportunity to use armour and weapons which they are highly appreciative of. Cold iron dragons mainly eat meat.

Combat

A cold iron dragon will normally leap down from above in order to shock and impress trespassers if it is able to. If it has decided to attack beforehand then it will attempt to land upon its victim. Cold iron dragons are melee combatants and fight as such, using their breath and spell-like abilities to neutralize magical threats. Those old enough to know maneuvers will not hesitate to use them if they believe that they will be helpful.

Winglessness (Ex): Cold iron dragons lack wings and therefore, unlike most dragons, can neither fly, nor use wing attacks.

Antimagic presence (Su): Instead of a frightful presence, cold iron dragons have an antimagic presence which acts like an antimagic field, null psionics field and soulless waste (Magic of Incarnum). The dragon can deactivate its presence as a free action (and needs to do so to use any of its spell-like or supernatural abilities such as DR other than its breath weapon) and reactivate it as a swift action. Anything that is immune to a dragonís frightful presence due to it being a draconic presence (eg. dragons) rather than it being a far effect is also immune to this presence.

Maneuvers: Instead of learning spells as a sorcerer, cold-iron dragons learn maneuvers and stances as a warblade of their initiator level. A cold iron dragon's natural weapons are treated as assosciated weapons for all warblade disciplines and overcome DR as if they were made of cold iron.

Breath weapon (Su): A cold iron dragonís breath weapon is a line of dispelling. This acts as a dispel magic/greater dispel magic except that it applies to everything in the area of effect (which is now a line) and there is no caster level cap. This breath weapon is not suppressed by antimagic presence.

Alternate form (Su): A cold iron dragon with its presence inactive may assume the form of a humanoid of medium size or smaller and return to normal up to three times per day. The dragon can remain in its humanoid form until it wishes to adopt a new form or return to its normal form.

Dragonís disjunction (Sp): This ability works exactly like Mageís disjunction except items are merely suppressed as if in an antimagic field for a number of rounds equal to the dragonís charisma modifier (minimum 1).

Other Spell-like Abilities: 3/day - Remove curse (adult or older); 3/day - Break enchantment (old or older); 1/day - Spell turning (ancient or older).

Skills: Balance, jump and martial lore are class skills for cold iron dragons.

Typical list of maneuvers known:

Young: Punishing stance, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Stone Bones, Sudden Leap
Juvenile: Punishing stance, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Stone Bones, Sudden Leap, Claw at the Moon, Emerald Razor
Young adult: Punishing stance, Absolute Steel Stance, Iron Heart Surge, Bonecrusher, Flesh Ripper, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Sudden Leap, Claw at the Moon, Emerald Razor
Adult: Punishing stance, Absolute Steel Stance, Ruby Nightmare Blade, Lightning Recovery, Iron Heart Surge, Bonecrusher, Flesh Ripper, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Claw at the Moon, Emerald Razor
Mature adult: Dancing Blade Form, Absolute Steel Stance, Dancing Mongoose, Ruby Nightmare Blade, Lightning Recovery, Iron Heart Surge, Bonecrusher, Flesh Ripper, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Claw at the Moon, Emerald Razor
Old: Dancing Blade Form, Absolute Steel Stance, Leaping Dragon Stance, Iron Heart Endurance, Dancing Mongoose, Ruby Nightmare Blade, Lightning Recovery, Iron Heart Surge, Bonecrusher, Flesh Ripper, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Emerald Razor
Very old: Dancing Blade Form, Absolute Steel Stance, Leaping Dragon Stance, Avalanche of Blades, Swooping Dragon Strike, Iron Heart Endurance, Dancing Mongoose, Ruby Nightmare Blade, Lightning Recovery, Iron Heart Surge, Bonecrusher, Flesh Ripper, Sapphire Nightmare Blade
Ancient: Dancing Blade Form, Absolute Steel Stance, Leaping Dragon Stance, Avalanche of Blades, Raging Mongoose, Swooping Dragon Strike, Iron Heart Endurance, Dancing Mongoose, Diamond Nightmare Blade, Lightning Recovery, Iron Heart Surge, Bonecrusher, Flesh Ripper, Ruby Nightmare Blade
Wyrm: Dancing Blade Form, Absolute Steel Stance, Leaping Dragon Stance, Wolf Pack Tactics, Strike of Perfect Clarity, Feral Death Blow, Avalanche of Blades, Raging Mongoose, Swooping Dragon Strike, Iron Heart Endurance, Dancing Mongoose, Diamond Nightmare Blade, Lightning Recovery, Iron Heart Surge, Bonecrusher, Flesh Ripper
Great wyrm: Dancing Blade Form, Absolute Steel Stance, Leaping Dragon Stance, Wolf Pack Tactics, Strike of Perfect Clarity, Adamantine Hurricane, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip, Feral Death Blow, Avalanche of Blades, Raging Mongoose, Swooping Dragon Strike, Iron Heart Endurance, Dancing Mongoose, Diamond Nightmare Blade, Lightning Recovery, Iron Heart Surge, Flesh Ripper


Cold Iron Dragons By Age
{table=head]Age|Size|Hit Dice (hp)|Str|Dex|Con|Int|Wis|Cha|BAB/Grapple|Attack|Fort|Ref|Will|Dispelling Breath and Spell-like Abillity Caster Level
Wyrmling|
M|
7d12+14 (59 hp)|
17|
12|
15|
12|
11|
8|
+7/+10|
+10|
+7|
+6|
+5|
1

Very Young|
L|
10d12+30 (95 hp)|
21|
12|
17|
12|
11|
8|
+10/+19|
+14|
+10|
+8|
+7|
2

Young|
L|
13d12+39 (123 hp)|
25|
12|
17|
14|
11|
10|
+13/+24|
+19|
+11|
+9|
+8|
3

Juvenile|
L|
16d12+39 (123 hp)|
29|
12|
19|
14|
11|
10|
+16/+29|
+24|
+14|
+11|
+10|
4

Young Adult|
H|
19d12+95 (218 hp)|
31|
12|
21|
16|
13|
12|
+19/+37|
+27|
+16|
+12|
+12|
5

Adult|
H|
22d12+110 (253 hp)|
33|
12|
21|
16|
13|
12|
+22/+41|
+31|
+18|
+14|
+14|
7

Mature Adult|
H|
25d12+150 (312 hp)|
35|
12|
23|
18|
15|
14|
+25/+45|
+35|
+20|
+15|
+16|
9

Old|
G|
28d12+196 (378 hp)|
39|
12|
25|
18|
15|
14|
+28/+54|
+38|
+23|
+17|
+18|
11

Very Old|
G|
31d12+248 (449 hp)|
41|
12|
27|
20|
17|
16|
+31/+58|
+42|
+25|
+18|
+20|
13

Ancient|
G|
34d12+306 (527 hp)|
43|
12|
29|
20|
17|
16|
+34/+62|
+46|
+28|
+20|
+22|
15

Wyrm|
G|
37d12+370 (610 hp)|
45|
12|
31|
22|
19|
18|
+37/+66|
+50|
+30|
+21|
+24|
17

Great Wyrm|
C|
40d12+440 (700 hp)|
47|
12|
33|
22|
21|
20|
+40/+74|
+50|
+33|
+23|
+27|
19
[/table]

Cold Iron Dragon Abilities By Age
{table=head]Age|Speed|Initiative|AC|Special Abilities|Initiator Level|SR
Wyrmling|60 ft., climb 30ft.|
+1|18 (+1 Dex, +7 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 17||
-|
-

Very Young|60 ft., climb 30 ft.|
+1|20 (+1 Dex, +10 natural, -1 size), touch 10, flat-footed 19||
-|
-

Young|60 ft., climb 30 ft.|
+1|23 (+1 Dex, +13 natural, -1 size), touch 10, flat-footed 22|Alternate form|
1st|
-

Juvenile|60 ft., climb 30 ft.|
+1|26 (+1 Dex, +16 natural, -1 size), touch 10, flat-footed 25||
3rd|
-

Young Adult|60 ft., climb 30 ft.|
+1|28 (+1 Dex, +19 natural, -2 size), touch 9, flat-footed 27|DR 5/magic|
5th|
25

Adult|60 ft., climb 30 ft.|
+1|31 (+1 Dex, +22 natural, -2 size), touch 9, flat-footed 30|Remove curse|
7th|
27

Mature Adult|60 ft., climb 30 ft.|
+1|34 (+1 Dex, +25 natural, -2 size), touch 9, flat-footed 33|DR 10/magic|
9th|
30

Old|60 ft., climb 30 ft.|
+1|35 (+1 Dex, +28 natural, -4 size), touch 7, flat-footed 34|Break enchantment|
11th|
32

Very Old|60 ft., climb 30 ft.|
+1|38 (+1 Dex, +31 natural, -4 size), touch 7, flat-footed 37|DR 15 magic|
13th|
33

Ancient|60 ft., climb 30 ft.|
+1|41 (+1 Dex, +34 natural, -4 size), touch 7, flat-footed 40|Spell turning|
15th|
35

Wyrm|60 ft., climb 30 ft.|
+1|44 (+1 Dex, +37 natural, -4 size), touch 7, flat-footed 43|DR 20/magic|
17th|
36

Great Wyrm|60 ft., climb 30 ft.|
+1|43 (+1 Dex, +40 natural, -8 size), touch 3, flat-footed 42|Dragonís disjunction|
19th|
38
[/table]

Any advice and error finding is welcome.

EDIT: I should also credit DracoDei as his Beige dragon inspired some of the changes I made before posting.

Sereg
2010-01-03, 11:08 PM
Reserved in case I need it as dragons often require extra stuff.

Zaydos
2010-01-03, 11:23 PM
Just looking over it:
Normally DR X/magic is a supernatural ability and thus completely loss in an antimagic field. So it might be better just to note that due to their DR being Supernatural it is also negated when their aura is active.
Otherwise:
Spell-like Abilities: Normally go off Age Category or Sorcerer level whichever is higher. I assume this would go off of either Age Category or Initiator level but you might should note that, or note that it goes off of something else (breath weapon caster level?).

No fly speed makes me sad since I love the image of a flying dragon, otherwise why Spider Climb instead of just a Climb Speed?

Edit: Also do they get stances or just strikes/boosts/counters? The two progressions are half-seperated so I'm not sure which way is intended.

Sereg
2010-01-03, 11:52 PM
Ok, I have to go soon but I'll just quickly reply first.


Just looking over it:
Normally DR X/magic is a supernatural ability and thus completely loss in an antimagic field. So it might be better just to note that due to their DR being Supernatural it is also negated when their aura is active.

Yikes, I forgot about that! Do you think that it would be better to give them a different type of DR, say that it is an exception or just go with your originol suggestion?


Otherwise:
Spell-like Abilities: Normally go off Age Category or Sorcerer level whichever is higher. I assume this would go off of either Age Category or Initiator level but you might should note that, or note that it goes off of something else (breath weapon caster level?).
Yes, they go off the higher of the age category or initiator level (breath weapon does to but it's listed for ease of use).


No fly speed makes me sad since I love the image of a flying dragon, otherwise why Spider Climb instead of just a Climb Speed?

Flying was just something that didn't feel right for it in my opinion but I'm willing to change it if most people want me to. Spider climb was cribbed off copper but you're right it is better with a climb speed.


Edit: Also do they get stances or just strikes/boosts/counters? The two progressions are half-seperated so I'm not sure which way is intended.

They get stances as well.

Oh, and I should probably credit DracoDei, his Beige dragon inspired some of the later changes. In fact I'll edit that in now.

Merk
2010-01-04, 12:06 AM
This is pretty awesome. One suggestion about the DR: Consider making it DR/Warheart (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5580531), to reflect its martial inclinations. High level adventurers are likely to carry enchanted weapons, but might not be as likely to have warheart weapons. You can rule that this type of DR is Extraordinary in nature, and perhaps also rule that all martial maneuvers (regardless of whether they are delivered via a warheart weapon) bypass this kind of DR.

Zaydos
2010-01-04, 12:10 AM
For the DR thing I'd say it depends upon what power you want them at. Fluff-wise I could see them with DR X/adamantine but that is more powerful than having them have to choose between DR and antimagic.

Another question: do they still have wings? If so you might want to give some explanation of why they cannot fly (such as they are weak and vestigial) possibly with an additional reduction to damage from wing attacks and a racial bonus to jump checks (even possibly a glide speed). If not you may need to note that they lack the wing attacks of normal dragons (which makes them a little weaker, but most Strikes can't be used with full attacks anyway).

I figured spider climb came from copper dragons, just thought a climb speed might be more accurate to the fluff.

dspeyer
2010-01-04, 12:11 AM
I'd encourage a fly speed. I'm planning to rewrite and repost my ToB PrC for Dragons fairly soon, and it has flyby attack as a prerequisite.

Latronis
2010-01-04, 12:36 AM
I love that it doesnt have flight

DracoDei
2010-01-04, 12:47 AM
Thank you for giving me credit... but it would also be nice to know what I did in the first place.

If it was swapping out the frightful presence, then that was in my turn inspired by the Dragon Ascendant PrC in Draconomicon.

Chrono22
2010-01-04, 01:07 AM
Instead of posting a whole new thread, I'll just ask here where you ToB experts can answer directly.
I'm looking for a discipline that is focused on ranged combat. What is it called? Where can I find it?
Thanks in advance.

Boci
2010-01-04, 01:10 AM
Instead of posting a whole new thread, I'll just ask here where you ToB experts can answer directly.
I'm looking for a discipline that is focused on ranged combat. What is it called? Where can I find it?
Thanks in advance.

It? There are quite a few, falling star being the most well known.

DracoDei
2010-01-04, 01:25 AM
You probably need to explicitly state that their natural weapons are considered associated for all disciplines.

Also, I think that giving them flight would be a mistake, if no other reason than because it would be a bit of fridge logic when they also have ranks in Jump if they take up Tiger Claw... speaking of which they need a non-standard set of racial skills to spend their skill points on.

deuxhero
2010-01-04, 01:50 AM
Steeldragon wyrm of war looks like it would be a better initiator.

GoC
2010-01-04, 07:54 AM
Just change the CR to be that of a greater dragon (like a red (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#redDragon) or silver (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#silverDragon)) and tone down the SR appropriately. The great wyrm wouldn't even be a speedbump to a level 30 party.
Sure it's tough but at epic levels? Even CR 27 is a stretch for it (just so you know, all metallic dragons and the red dragons qualify for epic spellcasting at great wyrm).

Sereg
2010-01-04, 08:47 AM
This is pretty awesome. One suggestion about the DR: Consider making it DR/Warheart (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5580531), to reflect its martial inclinations. High level adventurers are likely to carry enchanted weapons, but might not be as likely to have warheart weapons. You can rule that this type of DR is Extraordinary in nature, and perhaps also rule that all martial maneuvers (regardless of whether they are delivered via a warheart weapon) bypass this kind of DR.

Thanks for the advice but that would still feel suppernatural to me at least. It is a good idea though.


Another question: do they still have wings?
Winglessness is stated in the italic flavour text. And I've been convinced that I was right to make them flightless.


Thank you for giving me credit... but it would also be nice to know what I did in the first place.

If it was swapping out the frightful presence, then that was in my turn inspired by the Dragon Ascendant PrC in Draconomicon.

Actually I had already decided to do that...and had to change the name as mundane presence was now taken. Its actually just simple stuff I should have worked out eventually anyway, like I knew that I couldn't give it scorcerer spells but you replaced the progression with that of an adept which I hadn't scene done before (even though I did know gem dragons) and I realised, "I can do that to!"


You probably need to explicitly state that their natural weapons are considered associated for all disciplines.

Planned to do that for all warblde disciplines and forgot. Do you really think it should be all?


wyrm of war Template I'm not familliar with/have forgotten about?


Just change the CR to be that of a greater dragon (like a red or silver) and tone down the SR appropriately. The great wyrm wouldn't even be a speedbump to a level 30 party.
Sure it's tough but at epic levels? Even CR 27 is a stretch for it (just so you know, all metallic dragons and the red dragons qualify for epic spellcasting at great wyrm).

If you think so. I tried using The Vorple Tribble's and Fax_Celestis' CR calculators but either I made some errors or they don't work as effectively for very high CRs. I looked at it and thought "surely that can't be right" but I knew that dragons are normally considered under CR'ed and this is a pretty wierd dragon. I kind of wanted them to have a huge SR though as it's kind of their schtick.

hamishspence
2010-01-04, 10:41 AM
Given that Dragon Magazine's adamantine dragon's natural weapons count as adamantine for the purposes of ignoring DR and hardness, I'd say that this dragon's natural weapons should count as cold-iron.

GoC
2010-01-04, 11:28 AM
I kind of wanted them to have a huge SR though as it's kind of their schtick.

If it's there thing then by all means increase it a bit! Dragon SR is too low anyway.
I'd say make their SR be CR+12.

DracoDei
2010-01-04, 12:14 PM
"Just the Warblade disciplines" is probably the right way to go.

Sereg
2010-01-04, 11:23 PM
Given that Dragon Magazine's adamantine dragon's natural weapons count as adamantine for the purposes of ignoring DR and hardness, I'd say that this dragon's natural weapons should count as cold-iron.

Excellent point. I thought of that at one point but forgot to write it down.


If it's there thing then by all means increase it a bit! Dragon SR is too low anyway.
I'd say make their SR be CR+12.
That makes sense.


"Just the Warblade disciplines" is probably the right way to go.

Alright.

And I forgot to adress this:
speaking of which they need a non-standard set of racial skills to spend their skill points on.

Already there as Balance, jump and martial lore.

Thanks fopr the comments, advice and support so far.

deuxhero
2010-01-04, 11:34 PM
Wyrm of War is from Dragons of Eberron. Give up cleric casting for either bonus feats and proficiencies, or (what is relvant here) Tiger Claw access,

Sereg
2010-01-04, 11:57 PM
Wyrm of War is from Dragons of Eberron. Give up cleric casting for either bonus feats and proficiencies, or (what is relvant here) Tiger Claw access,

Oh. Ok, I see what you mean then. I don't own Dragons of Eberron though. And I actually started designing this dragon back when I played 2nd edition so the ToB stuff wasn't the major concern. It just seemed to fit so well once I finally read ToB.

EDIT: elliot20 requested a list of typical manuevers known, so I threw something together but my optimisation skills = no. Therefore, if someone can see any changes that would be appropriate I'd be glad to listen to your advice.

deuxhero
2010-01-05, 09:46 AM
Is a young wyrm meant to have an IL of 7 (IL is half of all non initiator hit dice, counting RHD)?

Sereg
2010-01-05, 11:53 PM
Is a young wyrm meant to have an IL of 7 (IL is half of all non initiator hit dice, counting RHD)?

That isn't the way I origonally intended it, but you make a good point.

What if I said that the IL column gives their effective IL for choosing manuevers but it's added to half their RHD for all other purposes? Or do you think that I should do it differently?

Sereg
2010-01-07, 07:55 AM
Just bumping in the hopes of more advice.

DracoDei
2010-01-07, 08:09 AM
Before I forget: Regarding the "Master of Nine Claws" PrC, in any game I ran I would just make an exception to the rule that they have to be able to fly to take it.

GoC
2010-01-07, 08:43 AM
Just bumping in the hopes of more advice.

I doubt you'll get any. It seems pretty flawless.

Sereg
2010-01-08, 12:20 AM
Before I forget: Regarding the "Master of Nine Claws" PrC, in any game I ran I would just make an exception to the rule that they have to be able to fly to take it.

Thanks DracoDei, you make an excellent suggestion. Is that, by the way an indication that you would use this dragon. If so, I must say that I too would love to get feedback on how my creations fare.

Also, any other comments about the maneuver list and/or initiator level? Those are what I am most concerned about at the moment. Or any other questions/comments at all?

Incidentally, Iíd love to do a half-dragon template, butÖIím uncertain as to what changes are appropriate. Obviously Iíll have to remove the wings for Large/larger creatures, but what about things like breath weapon?

Another thing, back when I was still thinking about posting this, I wondered if anyone would ask me if I was thinking of doing an alchemical silver equivalent. Well, I have thought of something, but of course we already have a silver dragon. So I was wondering, should it be called alchemical silver, true silver, silvered or something else that I have yet to think of?


I doubt you'll get any. It seems pretty flawless.

Thank you! That does wonders for my ego.

Tackyhillbillu
2010-01-08, 01:50 AM
Argent Dragon maybe? Argentum is the Latin for Silver.

DracoDei
2010-01-08, 03:21 AM
I have no particular plans to use it. I just don't plan that far in advance with my current campaign.


If I do... well, my campaign logs are linked from my extended signature.

hamishspence
2010-01-08, 05:39 AM
In 4E Draconomicon 2, it states that metallic dragons contain the relevant metal in their claws, scales, blood, etc.

So a silver dragon's scales and claws are basically full of silver.

So it might not be that much of a stretch to import it back into 3.5 ed and say

"Optional houserule- Silver dragon natural attacks count as silvered weapons for the purposes of overcoming DR/silver (or DR/any combination that involves silver- such as DR/epic, good, and silver)"

Sereg
2010-01-08, 08:38 AM
I have no particular plans to use it. I just don't plan that far in advance with my current campaign.


If I do... well, my campaign logs are linked from my extended signature.

Oh well, thanks anyway.


In 4E Draconomicon 2, it states that metallic dragons contain the relevant metal in their claws, scales, blood, etc.

So a silver dragon's scales and claws are basically full of silver.

So it might not be that much of a stretch to import it back into 3.5 ed and say

"Optional houserule- Silver dragon natural attacks count as silvered weapons for the purposes of overcoming DR/silver (or DR/any combination that involves silver- such as DR/epic, good, and silver)"

Good idea, but I kind of had an idea for an entire dragon, so...


Argent Dragon maybe? Argentum is the Latin for Silver.

That may work. I'll see if anyone else comes up with anything.

lightningcat
2010-01-08, 03:16 PM
I love the fact that its a wingless dragon that has access to Stone Dragon manuevers.
And the cold iron/antimagic idea is great. But why a line breathweapon? It would make more sense for it to be a cone, possibly with a secondary breathweapon (maybe a line that deals 2d4 damage/age).
Additionally, I'd like to see the SR start at wyrmling. SR 12 @ wyrmling, SR 15 @ very young, SR 18 @ young, and SR 21 @ Juvenile.

I think that the Argent Dragon could be the swordsage version, as compared to the Cold Iron Dragon's warblade.

Sereg
2010-01-09, 03:28 AM
I love the fact that its a wingless dragon that has access to Stone Dragon manuevers.
And the cold iron/antimagic idea is great. But why a line breathweapon? It would make more sense for it to be a cone, possibly with a secondary breathweapon (maybe a line that deals 2d4 damage/age).
Additionally, I'd like to see the SR start at wyrmling. SR 12 @ wyrmling, SR 15 @ very young, SR 18 @ young, and SR 21 @ Juvenile.

I think that the Argent Dragon could be the swordsage version, as compared to the Cold Iron Dragon's warblade.

I was very undecided about the breath weapon shape. I decided on line as lines have more range to defend against flying opponents, but if people think that it would be better as a cone then I'll change it.

My idea for the argent dragon is: Usually chaotic good, warlock invocations, DR/cold-iron, overcomes DR as silver, eldritch breath, alternate form as humanoid, animal or fey and uncanny presence (under 4HD=Nauseated, over = shaken).

hamishspence
2010-01-09, 07:08 AM
Now this is interesting. A Warlock dragon to go with the Martial Dragon.

(Magic of Incarnum already has an Incarnum Dragon).

Dragons that spin off from the usual arcane style aren't exactly new to 3.5 though- Planar dragons, gem dragons, and the like- since there was at least one non-arcane dragon in 2nd ed:

The Amber Dragon- druid casting- breath weapon is sticky resin, has a gore attack with its nose horn instead of a bite. (Monstrous Compendium)

So I like the notion of other dragons whose "powers" are different from those of standard dragons, who tend to have arcane (sorcerer) casting.

Sereg
2010-01-09, 08:30 AM
Now this is interesting. A Warlock dragon to go with the Martial Dragon.

(Magic of Incarnum already has an Incarnum Dragon).

Dragons that spin off from the usual arcane style aren't exactly new to 3.5 though- Planar dragons, gem dragons, and the like- since there was at least one non-arcane dragon in 2nd ed.

The Amber Dragon- druid casting- breath weapon is sticky resin, has a gore attack with its nose horn instead of a bite.

So I like the notion of other dragons whose "powers" are different from those or standard dragons, who tend to have arcane (sorcerer) casting

I'm glad you like it. I had similar thoughts to what you expressed. (Though I've never heard of an Amber Dragon.) I'll try put it up soon. Though dragons....take a while to make.

EDIT: Forgot to address question on SR for younger dragons:

I considered doing that but decided that it seemed inappropriate. If others disagree with me though then Iíll change it.

Sereg
2010-01-11, 11:52 PM
Hi guys, one last bump and a link to the promised argent dragon.

herbe
2010-03-28, 06:14 AM
(Note that magic weapons can still penetrate the dragonís damage reduction while the presence is active).
Its unnecesery.

As i know, there isnt any damage reduction(like good,evil,magic but there is materials like adamatine or silver) that supress by animagic field, in antimagic field. For example a Balor (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Balor) 's damage reduction bypass cold iron, good weapons but in antimagic field(where no weapons has magic quality) only cold iron weapons can bypass a balor damage reduction.

Anything that is immune to a dragonís frightful presence is also immune to this presence.
?? frightful presence is fear effect. So a 3rd level paladins are immune to this effect so they can use magic(It could be ridiculus a paladin can heal but cleric not?????)

Antimagic presence (Su) maybe i misread but i dont find its range saves against it(if it has). Against antimagic field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) there isnt save.

This dragon is awesome mage-killer ..... well done

Obrysii
2010-03-28, 06:27 AM
It's comparable in strength to an Adamantine, so I'd give its level adjustments at...

Level Adjustment: Wyrmling +5, Very Young +6, Young +6.

Top-end ECL would be around 50 for a Great Wyrm.

Sereg
2010-03-28, 10:09 PM
Its unnecesery.

Yes,...I suppose it is. I'll fix that.


As i know, there isnt any damage reduction(like good,evil,magic but there is materials like adamatine or silver) that supress by animagic field, in antimagic field. For example a Balor (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Balor) 's damage reduction bypass cold iron, good weapons but in antimagic field(where no weapons has magic quality) only cold iron weapons can bypass a balor damage reduction.

Surely, as others mentioned earlier, the DR would be negated as DR/magic is supernatural?


?? frightful presence is fear effect. So a 3rd level paladins are immune to this effect so they can use magic(It could be ridiculus a paladin can heal but cleric not?????)

Sorry, I obviously misrepresented that. It's supposed to be those whom are immune to frightful presence due to it being a draconic presence (eg. other dragons) rather than those whom are immune due to it being a fear effect (eg. paladins). However,...I find the idea of paladins being able to cast while full casters being unable to cast amusing.


maybe i misread but i dont find its range saves against it(if it has). Against antimagic field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) there isnt save.

Range is standard for frightful presence. As you said anti-magic field doesn't offer a save so, unless you think it should, then it doesn't.


This dragon is awesome mage-killer ..... well done

Thank you! Giving mages a hard time was one of the things that I was hoping to acheive. Don't get me wrong. I love mages. However, I like them to be challenged occasionally.


It's comparable in strength to an Adamantine, so I'd give its level adjustments at...

Level Adjustment: Wyrmling +5, Very Young +6, Young +6.

Top-end ECL would be around 50 for a Great Wyrm.

Awesome! I was afraid that the abilities would be too dificult to balance for PCs. But I like giving my players options so I'll add that in. However, though I've heard of the adamantine dragon, I've never seen it's stats.

EDIT: Changes complete

herbe
2010-03-29, 09:44 AM
I love mages. However, I like them to be challenged occasionally. Most of my chars are wizard and they like challenge.

CRs (and LA) should be higher(at least +2 but i dont know exactly) because of antimagic presence. In the group where there aren't 20d6 damage from wizard and there isnt healing and magic weapon,armor and lots of supernatural abilities ...etc., everything is more difficult and deadly, because D&D as a combat system largely based on magic and magic items.


Antimagic presence (Su): .... The dragon can deactivate its presence as a free action (and needs to do so to use any of its spell-like or supernatural abilities such as DR other than its breath weapon) and reactivate it as a swift action. Anything that is immune to a dragonís frightful presence due to it being a draconic presence (eg. dragons) rather than it being a far effect is also immune to this presence.

Sorry i noticed that: So a dragon can blast a fireball or any kind of spell while a balor or wizard cant? Correct to antimagic presence negate spells,spell like abilities, (manuevers????) ,breath weapon(supernatural and unnecessary to dispel something which is negated)...etc. as Antimagic field as a socerer with Cold iron dragon casterlevels.

Maybe add more climbing speed

Sereg
2010-03-29, 10:32 AM
CRs (and LA) should be higher(at least +2 but i dont know exactly) because of antimagic presence. In the group where there aren't 20d6 damage from wizard and there isnt healing and magic weapon,armor and lots of supernatural abilities ...etc., everything is more difficult and deadly, because D&D as a combat system largely based on magic and magic items.

I based the CRs and LAs off of GoC's and Obrysii's suggestions. Of course, if someone else shows up and agrees with you/you give an argument that easily counters theirs, then I'll change it. I think the issue is that the dragon can't benifit from those things either and the fact that there are ways of working around antimagic.


Sorry i noticed that: So a dragon can blast a fireball or any kind of spell while a balor or wizard cant? Correct to antimagic presence negate spells,spell like abilities, (manuevers????) ,breath weapon(supernatural and unnecessary to dispel something which is negated)...etc. as Antimagic field as a socerer with Cold iron dragon casterlevels.

They can only use their supernatural abilities (other than their breath weapon), spell-like abilities and any spells they've learned (which they'd need class levels for as they don't learn spells automatically like most dragons) whilst their presence is down. However, they gain no benifit from it when it's down so when one can cast, so can the other. Manuevers would only be affected if they were supernatural.


Maybe add more climbing speed

It's already at half their normal movement rate. Wouldn't more be a bit much?

herbe
2010-03-29, 11:40 AM
Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. from SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm)


CRs (and LA) should be higher(at least +2 but i dont know exactly) because of antimagic presence. In the group where there aren't 20d6 damage from wizard and there isnt healing and magic weapon,armor and lots of supernatural abilities ...etc., everything is more difficult and deadly, because D&D as a combat system largely based on magic and magic items. A group of fighters and barbarians cant beat a cold iron dragon without magic item and healing. Of course they can use bows and arrows...

Sereg
2010-03-30, 12:09 AM
Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. from SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm)

Oh, I know.


A group of fighters and barbarians cant beat a cold iron dragon without magic item and healing. Of course they can use bows and arrows...

I agree that it's powerful. That's why I didn't give an LA for so long. However, there are spells that get around antimagic. The CRs were actually reduced and know one else disagreed when they were. I'm not saying that antimagic isn't powerful, these dragons do have high Crs compared to other dragons already. As I said, if other people agree that they need to be raised again, I'll do so. I'm not trying to dismiss your arguments, but there have been several individuals whom have commented and you are the first to say that their CR needs raising. As I said I was asked to lower them at one point. I'm hoping that someone else will chime in on whom they agree with so that I have some decisiveness without continually changing things based on people having different opinions.