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Temotei
2010-01-04, 02:19 AM
Debaser

http://i.imgur.com/8lYUil.jpg (http://browse.deviantart.com/?qh=&section=&q=drain+soul#/d1ehmjv)
Taste your demise as I taste your soul...

-- Iolus Hosh, "soul-sucking bastard"

Disease, pain, suffering, and blight is everywhere. One just has to look for it. In some cases, searching for a source leads to a creature. This creature may be a debaser. In those cases, beware, for the corruption that creature can cause is beyond what most mortals know. For this reason, debasers have come to be known as "soul-sucking bastards."

Adventures: A debaser may adventure for several reasons. If they're evil, a common reason is to simply increase their power by practicing on settlements and innocents. They adventure for the purpose of being the best (by throwing others down). One who is not so evil or corrupted may decide to adventure on a whim, letting fate take them where it will, or they might adventure because of a higher-up ordering them to in a guild or organization. There are all kinds of reasons to adventure, but the least common for debasers is helping others. In contrast, a debaser might want to save the world or some part of it because that is what they revel in destroying and reducing.

Characteristics: Debasers cast spells similar to the way a beguiler does. They focus on spells that "debuff" an enemy or multiple enemies. The same goes for their class features. Fell drain saps life from an enemy and powers the debaser with the energy, and the debaser's other class features have similar effects, like the debaser's curse, the namesake of the class. Altogether, a debaser is about weakening enemies so that they may take over them more easily.

Alignment: Of the alignments, debasers are most commonly evil, but some are neutral. Their abilities focus on weakening and debasing others, so it's no wonder there are so very few good debasers. Even those who are have trouble staying on the path, usually tending more towards neutral in the end. Debasers also tend towards chaos, with their scourge bringing such to the lands they visit.

Religion: Debasers worship neutral and evil gods, and sometimes (although rare), a debaser might even follow the path of a good deity, although their views most likely conflict in a few ways. One debaser could be a trickster of sorts, relying on making others sick for short periods of time to show them a lesson, worshiping Olidammara. Another could be a follower of Nerull, bringing a blight upon whomever they meet.

Background: A debaser could come from anywhere. One could be a demon from the abyss, using fell magic and drains to sap the life out of the world. Another could be a simple human from a life of peasantry, learning how to use their power to advance in life. Yet another could be a king, keeping others below him by weakening would-be usurpers.

Races: Any race can be a debaser, but the more savage populations tend to steer clear of this particular profession. Those races that tend to have a population of charismatic individuals often become debasers.

Other Classes: Debasers don't often get along with paladins, as their conflicting views on the subject of morality come into play. Barbarians tend to dislike debasers as well, with their views on the occult, furthered by the debaser's outlook on life--a thing to be drained. Sorcerers and bards might enjoy the company of someone sharing their abilities. Rogues, having similar combat skills and sometimes philosophies, often associate with debasers. Wizards often welcome another user of magic into an adventuring party, but those with a less necromantic view of magic might find their use of it repulsive. Clerics sometimes like to have a debaser on their team--especially war clerics. Druids are sometimes alright with debasers--until they pick on nature. Monks hold a fairly neutral view of debasers, and the same goes for rangers, although they sometimes take to the druid point of view.

Role: Debasers are usually indirect support characters. They can hold their own in melee (usually after cursing their target) with their weapons of choice, which usually happen to be the most painful or the most wicked, but much of their power comes from controlling the battlefield, weakening enemies so allies and possibly the debasers themselves can wade in and crush them easily. Essentially, the debaser is the opposite of the bard. While bards power up their allies, thereby ending enemies, debasers power down enemies, thereby ending them in a different way.

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Debasers have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Charisma improves almost all of the debaser’s abilities, and is their primary spellcasting ability. Dexterity helps with certain targeted abilities requiring attack rolls, such as their fell drain ability. Constitution improves Concentration and hit points, both of which help greatly.
Alignment: Any nongood.
Hit Die: d8.

Class Skills
The debaser’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

DEBASER


Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special
0
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th


1st
+0
+2
+0
+2
Debaser's curse, fell drain, armored mage
2
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
+1
+3
+0
+3
Bolster curse 1/day
3
0
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
+2
+3
+1
+3
Corruption aura 1/day, debasement focus +2
3
1
-
-
-
-
-


4th
+3
+4
+1
+4
-
3
2
0
-
-
-
-


5th
+3
+4
+1
+4
Mettle
3
3
1
-
-
-
-


6th
+4
+5
+2
+5
Greater debaser's curse, corruption aura 2/day
3
3
2
-
-
-
-


7th
+5
+5
+2
+5
-
3
3
2
0
-
-
-


8th
+6/+1
+6
+2
+6
Bolster curse 2/day
3
3
3
1
-
-
-


9th
+6/+1
+6
+3
+6
Overwhelming drain, corruption aura 3/day
3
3
3
2
-
-
-


10th
+7/+2
+7
+3
+7
-
3
3
3
2
0
-
-


11th
+8/+3
+7
+3
+7
Debasement focus +4
3
3
3
3
1
-
-


12th
+9/+4
+8
+4
+8
Corruption aura 4/day
3
3
3
3
2
-
-


13th
+9/+4
+8
+4
+8
-
3
3
3
3
2
0
-


14th
+10/+5
+9
+4
+9
Bolster curse 3/day
4
3
3
3
3
1
-


15th
+11/+6/+1
+9
+5
+9
Supreme debaser's curse, corruption aura 5/day
4
4
3
3
3
2
-


16th
+12/+7/+2
+10
+5
+10
-
4
4
4
3
3
2
0


17th
+12/+7/+2
+10
+5
+10
-
4
4
4
4
3
3
1


18th
+13/+8/+3
+11
+6
+11
Domination drain, corruption aura 6/day
4
4
4
4
4
3
2


19th
+14/+9/+4
+11
+6
+11
Debasement focus +6
4
4
4
4
4
4
3


20th
+15/+10/+5
+12
+6
+12
Scourge, bolster curse 4/day
4
4
4
4
4
4
4



Class Features
All of the following are class features of the debaser.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Debasers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons. Debasers are proficient with light and medium armor, but not with shields.

Spells: Debasers cast arcane spells, which are drawn from the debaser spell list given below. They are able to cast any spell they know without preparing it ahead of time.
To learn or cast a spell, a debaser must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a debaser’s spell is 10 + spell level + Cha modifier.
When the debaser gains a new spell level, they automatically know all spells of that level.

Debaser’s Curse (Su): A debaser may call upon the darkness within to bring a curse upon an enemy as a swift action. When using this ability, the debaser chooses from two of the following effects, combining them to make the debaser’s curse, targeted on an enemy within 60 feet. The debaser must have line of sight to the target.
Disable -– -2 penalty to Strength
Debilitate -– -2 penalty to Dexterity
Devastate -- -2 penalty to Constitution
Disenable -- -2 penalty to Intelligence
Depress -– -2 penalty to Wisdom
Disgrace -– -2 penalty to Charisma
Cripple -– -10’ penalty to speed
Hinder -– -2 penalty to skill checks
A creature’s speed may be reduced to a minimum of 5’ in this manner. This ability can lower a creature's abilities to a minimum of 1. Debaser’s curse can be used 1 + Cha modifier per day. If the opponent succeeds on a Will saving throw of DC 10 + ½ class levels + Cha modifier, no uses are wasted. The effects of debaser's curse last for an hour.

Fell Drain (Su): The debaser may conjure a blast of destructive energy connected to their own essence as a full round action, aimed at an enemy. If the debaser successfully hits an enemy with a ranged touch attack with a range of up to 60 feet, the debaser may drain power from the target. The debaser gains +2 Armor Class and +2 to all saves for 3 + Cha modifier rounds, and the enemy suffers 1d4 Strength or Dexterity damage. Fell drain can be used once per day per class level.

Armored Mage (Ex): The debaser has trained extensively in casting spells that lower their opponents' capabilities. So extensively, in fact, that they can cast arcane spells in light armor with no chance of spell failure. Spells granted from other classes still have a chance of failure from wearing armor, unless they also grant the ability to cast in armor.

Bolster Curse (Su): At 2nd level, a debaser can add an additional choice from the list of curse options to their debaser's curse once per day. This does not grant an extra use of debaser's curse. Rather, it allows the debaser to alter a use of it to gain one additional effect.
At 8th level, and every 6 levels after (14, 20), the debaser is allowed another use of bolster curse.

Corruption Aura (Su): At 3rd level, the debaser is able to evoke a dark aura. Once per day, a debaser can activate the corruption aura at a mental command as a free action, lasting for 3 + Cha modifier rounds. Enemies within 30 feet of the debaser slowly decay, unless they succeed on a Fortitude saving throw of DC 10 + 1/2 class levels + Cha modifier. Each enemy is subject to 1 Constitution damage each round they are within the area. If an enemy is within the area for more than 5 rounds, negative levels start to apply every round after. If an opponent leaves the area for more than one round, the count is reset, and they take Constitution damage if they go back in range of the aura.
At 6th level, and every 3 levels after (9, 12, 15, and 18), the debaser can use corruption aura one more time per day.

Debasement Focus: At 3rd level, the debaser gains a +2 bonus to overcome spell resistance when casting from the debaser spell list.
At 11th level, this bonus increases to +4.
At 19th level, this bonus increases to +6.

Mettle (Ex): At 5th level, a debaser gains an even more resistant body and mind, allowing a Fortitude or Will saving throw against spells that can be reduced in effectiveness by an ordinary Fortitude or Will saving throw. This ability, however, allows the debaser to avoid all damage and negative effects from such spells.

Greater Debaser’s Curse (Su): At 6th level, the debaser’s curse strengthens, further penalizing enemies, and providing another option for the curse.
Disable -– -4 penalty to Strength
Debilitate -– -4 penalty to Dexterity
Devastate -- -4 penalty to Constitution
Disenable -- -4 penalty to Intelligence
Depress -– -4 penalty to Wisdom
Disgrace -– -4 penalty to Charisma
Cripple -– -20’ penalty to speed
Hinder -– -4 penalty to skill checks
Mutilate -- -4 penalty to armor or natural armor bonus (whichever is higher) to Armor Class
This ability can lower a creature's abilities to a minimum of 1. The mutilate property allows an opponent's armor or natural armor bonus to fall to a minimum of 0. The cripple property allows speed to be dropped to a minimum of 5'.

Overwhelming Drain (Su): At 9th level, the debaser's drain power improves. The benefits now improve to +4 Armor Class and +4 to saves. In addition, the debaser can now choose to gain +4 to attacks instead of the bonus to saves. Ability damage improves to deal 1d6 + 1.

Supreme Debaser's Curse (Su): At 15th level, the debaser's curse reaches its pinnacle, further increasing the penalties imposed, and offering yet another option.
Disable -– -6 penalty to Strength
Debilitate -– -6 penalty to Dexterity
Devastate -- -6 penalty to Constitution
Disenable -- -6 penalty to Intelligence
Depress -– -6 penalty to Wisdom
Disgrace -– -6 penalty to Charisma
Cripple -– -30’ penalty to speed
Hinder -– -6 penalty to skill checks
Mutilate -- -6 penalty to armor or natural armor bonus (whichever is higher) to Armor Class
Magebane -- -2 penalty to caster level for the purposes of spell effects
This ability can lower a creature's abilities to a minimum of 1. The magebane property allows caster level to fall to a minimum of 1. The mutilate property allows an opponent's armor or natural armor bonus to fall to a minimum of 0. The cripple property allows speed to be dropped to a minimum of 5'.

Domination Drain (Su): At 18th level, the debaser's fell drain ability is at its high. The benefits improve once more to +6 Armor Class and +6 saves. The debaser may choose to substitute +6 attack for the bonus to saves. Ability damage is improved once again to 1d8 + 2.

Scourge (Su): At 20th level, the debaser has reached the pinnacle of debasing. Once per day as a full round action, the debaser can release a huge wave of dark energy to make defeating their enemies a breeze. All enemies within 60 feet take a penalty of -10 to all ability scores, damage rolls, critical confirmation rolls, saves, skills, and initiative for an hour. A successful Will saving throw of DC 15 + 1/2 class levels + Cha modifier negates the penalties.


Debaser Spell List:

0 -- Daze, flare, touch of fatigue, prestidigitation, sonic snap (SpC), stick (SpC), slash tongue (BoVD)

1st -- Bane, cause fear, doom, dispel ward (SpC), incite (SpC), inhibit (SpC), impede (CC), obscuring mist, grease, sleep, color spray, chill touch, ray of enfeeblement, karmic aura (CM), resinous tar (CM), death's call (CM), buzzing bee (SpC), wall of smoke (SpC), distract (SpC), distract assailant (SpC), shock and awe (SpC), spirit worm (SpC), ray of clumsiness (SpC)

2nd -- Blindness/Deafness, silence, sound burst, death knell, curse of ill fortune (SpC), wave of grief (SpC), bewildering visions (CC), execration (CC), mark of the outcast (SpC), fog cloud, black karma curse (PHBII), blade brothers (PHBII), daze monster, hideous laughter, touch of idiocy, ghoul touch, scare, arcane turmoil (CM), torrent of tears (CM), escalating enfeeblement (CM), wall of gloom (SpC), Kelgore's grave mist (PHBII), curse of impending blades (SpC)

3rd -- Bestow curse, hold person, contagion, dispel magic, invisibility purge, wrack (SpC), clutch of orcus (SpC), nauseating breath (SpC), sink (SpC), curse of arrow attraction (PHBII), energy vulnerability (PHBII), hesitate (PHBII), sleet storm, stinking cloud, deep slumber, halt undead, ray of exhaustion, vampiric touch, slow, karmic backlash (CM), caustic smoke (CM), pall of twilight (CM), prickling torment (CM), unluck (SpC), ray of dizziness (SpC), mass curse of impending blades (SpC), mind poison (SpC), spider poison (SpC), spell vulnerability (SpC), shivering touch (FrB)

4th -- Poison, confusion, castigate (SpC), doomtide (CD), confound (CC), consumptive field (SpC), hypothermia (SpC), moon bolt (SpC), negative energy aura (SpC), unholy blight, enervation, solid fog, crushing despair, shout, fear, finger of agony (CM), horrid sickness (CM), touch of years (CM), sensory deprivation (SpC), sword of deception (SpC), suicidal thoughts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9274757&postcount=1)

5th -- Insect plague, symbol of pain, symbol of sleep, bewildering mischance (CC), bleed (CC), mark of sin (CC), mass contagion (SpC), mass curse of ill fortune (SpC), symbol of spell loss (SpC), vulnerability (SpC), wall of dispel magic (SpC), condemnation (PHBII), mana flux (PHBII), cloudkill, feeblemind, mind fog, blight, waves of fatigue, resounding thunder (CM), cryptwarden's grasp (CM), touch of vecna (CM), freezing fog (SpC), spiritwall (SpC), night's caress (SpC), vulnerability (SpC), gelid blood (FrB), disrupt spell resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9259930&postcount=1)

6th -- Antilife shell, greater dispel magic, symbol of fear, zealot pact (SpC), weight of sin (CC), cold snap (SpC), ghost trap (SpC), rejection (SpC), antimagic field, hold monster, eyebite, karmic retribution (CM), endless slumber (CM), transfix (SpC), aura of terror (SpC), fleshshiver (SpC), imperious glare (SpC), ray of entropy (SpC), spectral touch (SpC), greater shout, heartfreeze (FrB), greater disrupt spell resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9259930&postcount=1), mass suicidal thoughts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9274757&postcount=1)

Temotei
2010-01-04, 05:16 PM
I weakened debaser's curse by taking away one option, and added another ability called bolster curse, allowing three options instead of two to be chosen. I'd love to hear on this class.

arguskos
2010-01-04, 05:38 PM
I like it. It feels like a fixed Hexblade, which is something I approve of greatly. Looking at it though, the Hit Die is lower than I thought it would be for what it is. It seems like it's going to be a melee combatant most of the time, but d6 and light armor? And, poor weapon proficiencies isn't helping.

The other nitpick I have is if you could mark the sources on the spells, that'd be best. I don't recognize them all off the top of my head, and I am fairly versed in such things.

Temotei
2010-01-04, 05:46 PM
I like it. It feels like a fixed Hexblade, which is something I approve of greatly. Looking at it though, the Hit Die is lower than I thought it would be for what it is. It seems like it's going to be a melee combatant most of the time, but d6 and light armor? And, poor weapon proficiencies isn't helping.

The other nitpick I have is if you could mark the sources on the spells, that'd be best. I don't recognize them all off the top of my head, and I am fairly versed in such things.

Will do. I had a general list in another thread that cited the sources, but not each spell specifically. I'll do that. Would you like the citations right by each spell, or at the end?

I'll increase the hit die to d8, and add the kukri to the weapon proficiencies.

And thank you. The class was based partly off the beguiler, and partly off the hexblade. It started out as a sort of hexblade fix, but I ended up creating an all-new class focused on debuffs. I took out unluck aura and replaced it with corruption aura. I gave it a nice capstone. Et cetera. I do put so much work into these classes, so I appreciate the comments from everyone. Saintjebus already sent me a PM on it, but will be posting in this thread on my request. I can't thank you guys enough for the time you spend in reading the class, and the comments just add to my gratefulness. :smallsmile:

arguskos
2010-01-04, 06:21 PM
Why the strange weapons? Sap/short sword/whip/kukri? Why those?

Personally, any system that makes the spells clear is good for me. I like asterisks and whatnot myself, but that's just me.

Temotei
2010-01-04, 06:27 PM
Why the strange weapons? Sap/short sword/whip/kukri? Why those?

Personally, any system that makes the spells clear is good for me. I like asterisks and whatnot myself, but that's just me.

What weapons would you choose?

Random_person
2010-01-04, 06:36 PM
Domination Drain (Su): At 18th level, the debaser's fell drain ability is at its high, ready to steal power from enemies readily. The benefits improve once more to +6 Armor Class and +6 saves. The debaser may choose to substitute +6 attack for the bonus to saves. Ability damage is improved once again to 1d8 + 2.

Huh? You what?

Temotei
2010-01-04, 07:10 PM
Huh? You what?

Oops. :smallbiggrin: Thanks for catching that.

The spells are now cited. A few I lost. Silly me. I think I'll ask where they are on the roleplaying board. :smallamused:

arguskos
2010-01-04, 07:36 PM
What weapons would you choose?
Either give them some fluff to explain it, or give them martial weapons. They are a hybrid melee/martial class, they need weapons that don't shoehorn them.

Then again, I personally feel that weapon prof should be basically free and at option, so take that as it is.

I do like it though, it's something I may nick for my own use actually, alongside the Hexblade, Shadowcaster, and Binder as the Cabal of Strangeness (baddie group I'm working on for my campaign).

EDIT: Spell list noted, and much thanks! It's pretty kind of you to note for us folks.

Saintjebus
2010-01-04, 07:37 PM
This was what I originally sent to Temotei:





That curse seems really powerful. At level one you have a save or lose 4 times per day. That's.... really good. and it only gets better.

I'm not sure how to balance it. Maybe the curse starts out as negatives, for example, 1st level curse = -1 to AC, -1 Attack. Next time it scales, increase. -2 to AC, -2 attack. Later,(like level 9-10) start adding some ability damage. then that increases.

The problem is that the curse mimics higher level spells. Blindness/Deafness is a 2nd level spell. The first time I an find anything like ability damage is Bestow Curse, a 4th level spell



I think I may have now been ninja'ed... haven't read through all of the other responses..

Temotei
2010-01-04, 07:43 PM
This was what I originally sent to Temotei:




I think I may have now been ninja'ed... haven't read through all of the other responses..

Actually, it's changed now, so you can take a look at the edited version with the new ability. No one commented until after I did that.




Either give them some fluff to explain it, or give them martial weapons. They are a hybrid melee/martial class, they need weapons that don't shoehorn them.

Then again, I personally feel that weapon prof should be basically free and at option, so take that as it is.

I do like it though, it's something I may nick for my own use actually, alongside the Hexblade, Shadowcaster, and Binder as the Cabal of Strangeness (baddie group I'm working on for my campaign).

EDIT: Spell list noted, and much thanks! It's pretty kind of you to note for us folks.

Fluff is incoming. Right now, I just want the mechanics to be balanced. I might give them martial weapons since that won't really give them that much more of an edge (no pun intended).

As for the spell list editing...you're welcome. :smallsmile: If you do play with the class, would you mind telling me how it goes?

arguskos
2010-01-04, 07:52 PM
Hey, if that means I have your permission, then I'm fine with telling you how it performs at level 1 (my new game starts at level 1, and so will the baddies).

Martial really does solve the issues. I mean, let's look at it's match, the Hexblade. He gets martial with no issues. :smallwink:

As for the curse, eh, it looks great to me honestly.

Temotei
2010-01-04, 08:41 PM
Hey, if that means I have your permission, then I'm fine with telling you how it performs at level 1 (my new game starts at level 1, and so will the baddies).

Martial really does solve the issues. I mean, let's look at it's match, the Hexblade. He gets martial with no issues. :smallwink:

As for the curse, eh, it looks great to me honestly.

Thanks. :smallsmile: Before, I had it let you choose from three. Now there's an ability that lets you do that a certain number of days instead. Bolster curse. :smallbiggrin:

I might give it Martial Weapon Proficiency. It's an idea.

Of course you have permission.

arguskos
2010-01-04, 08:43 PM
Why can't the curse hit all stats? Why just those four? Seems kinda silly that it can only hit 4/6. Was there a reason for it?

Temotei
2010-01-04, 09:15 PM
Why can't the curse hit all stats? Why just those four? Seems kinda silly that it can only hit 4/6. Was there a reason for it?

Honestly, I couldn't think of a name for the other two. If you have ideas, that would help a lot. :smallamused:

arguskos
2010-01-04, 09:17 PM
Con: Devastate, Decimate
Int: Disable, Decimate

Those both sound alright.

Temotei
2010-01-04, 09:21 PM
Con: Devastate, Decimate
Int: Disable, Decimate

Those both sound alright.

I like devastate.

Decimate sounds like pure damage though.

Disable...that's kind of offensive to people with disabilities. While I'm sure you didn't mean it in any offensive way, I'm going to avoid that. If you have any more ideas, I will gladly accept them.

arguskos
2010-01-04, 11:36 PM
I like devastate.

Decimate sounds like pure damage though.

Disable...that's kind of offensive to people with disabilities. While I'm sure you didn't mean it in any offensive way, I'm going to avoid that. If you have any more ideas, I will gladly accept them.
Oh dears. I didn't mean it that way at all, I just thought it was a fitting term, you know, disabling the target and all.

Uh, there REALLY aren't that many D-words that mean these sorts of things. Negate would be good, but it doesn't fit your D-theme.

Ah! Disenable! Try that one on for size. It's a touch archaic, but it's a good one I think.

Temotei
2010-01-04, 11:39 PM
Oh dears. I didn't mean it that way at all, I just thought it was a fitting term, you know, disabling the target and all.

Uh, there REALLY aren't that many D-words that mean these sorts of things. Negate would be good, but it doesn't fit your D-theme.

Ah! Disenable! Try that one on for size. It's a touch archaic, but it's a good one I think.

:smallbiggrin: Actually, it was a coincidence that I came up with so many "D" words. They struck me as the most appealing words for the job, and I figured once I had two or three that I would just keep it up. Disenable...nice. :smallsmile:

It's in. :smallamused:

arguskos
2010-01-05, 12:06 AM
Awesome. :smallamused:

Consider this totally stolen and used.

Temotei
2010-01-05, 12:13 AM
Awesome. :smallamused:

Consider this totally stolen and used.

:smallbiggrin: Sweet.

arguskos
2010-01-05, 04:20 PM
I was making up a cultist who is a level 1 debaser, and I found myself hating the name, actually. Might I suggest "Corruptor" instead, as a more flowing name?

The Tygre
2010-01-05, 04:30 PM
Cool class. If you don't mind me asking, what's the fluff behind these guys?

Temotei
2010-01-05, 07:32 PM
I was making up a cultist who is a level 1 debaser, and I found myself hating the name, actually. Might I suggest "Corruptor" instead, as a more flowing name?

I had thought of that name, but I wanted the class to not sound completely evil. Neutral-aligned characters can take this class. Corrupter just sounds evil. Feel free to change it for your campaign though.


Cool class. If you don't mind me asking, what's the fluff behind these guys?

The fluff should be done in a bit. I've been kind of busy with schoolwork and such, so it's on hold for a little while. It's coming though.

I imagine the characters in the class to be fairly diverse. They could come into the class on accident as a young'un, learning small cantrips at first, then developing a drain attack (may happen when they get angry, or possibly when they hit someone...anything really) and curse (again, curse could come from anger or from insulting them, or literally cursing their name). They could come into the class as trained charismatic rogues, knowing that having the ability to weaken their foes before performing some daring acts could save their and their friends' lives. They could be Lawful Evil dictators, commanding legions of devils, showing their power in the torture chambers with fell drain, debaser's curse, and as a finale, scourge.

They'll most likely work well with classes like the sorcerer and rogue, and neutral or evil clerics. Even druids might sync well with them. Maybe wizards.

They'll probably have troubles with the paladins--especially if they're evil.

Adventuring could be a way to profit, to show off their power and get stronger, or simply to end boredom.

If you've got ideas for the fluff as well, I'd like to hear them. :smallsmile:

arguskos
2010-01-05, 08:04 PM
I had thought of that name, but I wanted the class to not sound completely evil. Neutral-aligned characters can take this class. Corrupter just sounds evil. Feel free to change it for your campaign though.
Well, I didn't want it to be straight evil, actually. The feeling I get from debaser is confusing and incomplete. Corrupter is more in line with someone who degrades others, corrupts their essence, and turns it against them, which is what this class does (very well). It does have some heavy evil overtones though, which is not really my intent. Corruptor would work if you gave it the flavor of someone who has discovered the darker side of life, someone who uses life force against those it empowers, they twist intentions and use their skills to cripple their foes, before finishing them off. It's not evil, not really, just like the druid who embraces the briar is not evil, merely broad in their use of nature.

Merely a thought though. :smallwink: I really do love it though.

Temotei
2010-01-05, 08:12 PM
Well, I didn't want it to be straight evil, actually. The feeling I get from debaser is confusing and incomplete. Corrupter is more in line with someone who degrades others, corrupts their essence, and turns it against them, which is what this class does (very well). It does have some heavy evil overtones though, which is not really my intent. Corruptor would work if you gave it the flavor of someone who has discovered the darker side of life, someone who uses life force against those it empowers, they twist intentions and use their skills to cripple their foes, before finishing them off. It's not evil, not really, just like the druid who embraces the briar is not evil, merely broad in their use of nature.

Merely a thought though. :smallwink: I really do love it though.

Good point. If I use the name corrupter, I'll come up with some fluff to allow them to actually use that name without it being automatically evil. :smallbiggrin:

I'll be playing a debaser in a game in the Play-by-Post board. It should be fun. :smallsmile:

arguskos
2010-01-05, 08:17 PM
Good point. If I use the name corrupter, I'll come up with some fluff to allow them to actually use that name without it being automatically evil. :smallbiggrin:

I'll be playing a debaser in a game in the Play-by-Post board. It should be fun. :smallsmile:
Sweetness. I built up one for my player's to fight. He's a CE half-orc debaser 1, and happily, Pathfinder half-orcs get a single +2 to put anywhere they want, so he's got a 17 Cha! :smallcool: Infinite cantrips (thanks again Pathfinder) make the debaser much scarier at level 1 too. He kind just stands behind some warriors and uses the curse and spams sonic snap and daze. To be honest, he might be TOO good for them to handle. I mean, swift action -2 to key stats (Con is painful at level 1)? That's rough, it really is. I might have to tone him done a bit.

I'll let you know how it goes when it happens (this particular cultist should meet the PCs on Saturday). I've got some Binder+Debaser action planned, along with mixes of Binders, Debasers, Hexblades, and Shadowcasters, so they'll get action with a bunch of diverse classes. :smallamused:

I've also been thinking about multiclassing a debaser into something like Knight. The Cha dependency carries over, the swift-action curses are great, the Knight's d12s would rock, it sounds like a match made in heaven, at least at low levels. Did you have any specific multiclasses in mind when you wrote the debaser? (Ooh, another good one would be Favored Soul/Debaser/Mystic Theurge, though it'd have terrible progression, it'd be damn fun.)

Last question: do the bonuses from Fell Drain have a type, or are they meant to be untyped?

Temotei
2010-01-05, 08:31 PM
Sweetness. I built up one for my player's to fight. He's a CE half-orc debaser 1, and happily, Pathfinder half-orcs get a single +2 to put anywhere they want, so he's got a 17 Cha! :smallcool: Infinite cantrips (thanks again Pathfinder) make the debaser much scarier at level 1 too. He kind just stands behind some warriors and uses the curse and spams sonic snap and daze. To be honest, he might be TOO good for them to handle. I mean, swift action -2 to key stats (Con is painful at level 1)? That's rough, it really is. I might have to tone him done a bit.

I'll let you know how it goes when it happens (this particular cultist should meet the PCs on Saturday). I've got some Binder+Debaser action planned, along with mixes of Binders, Debasers, Hexblades, and Shadowcasters, so they'll get action with a bunch of diverse classes. :smallamused:

I've also been thinking about multiclassing a debaser into something like Knight. The Cha dependency carries over, the swift-action curses are great, the Knight's d12s would rock, it sounds like a match made in heaven, at least at low levels. Did you have any specific multiclasses in mind when you wrote the debaser? (Ooh, another good one would be Favored Soul/Debaser/Mystic Theurge, though it'd have terrible progression, it'd be damn fun.)

Last question: do the bonuses from Fell Drain have a type, or are they meant to be untyped?

I specifically made the fell drain bonuses untyped. I had thought of making them profane bonuses, but that's almost meant for evil.

On multiclassing: I had thought about it. I never really keyed it to any specific classes, but I left it open for multiclassing for the most part.

You're right about the Constitution. I think I'll switch it with the armor penalty option. That way, you can't just decimate early enemies by using the curse.

Infinite cantrips? :smalleek: Do the makers realize you could abuse cure minor wounds?

arguskos
2010-01-05, 09:39 PM
I specifically made the fell drain bonuses untyped. I had thought of making them profane bonuses, but that's almost meant for evil.
Ah, okies then! ^_^


On multiclassing: I had thought about it. I never really keyed it to any specific classes, but I left it open for multiclassing for the most part.
Ah, well then, fair enough.


You're right about the Constitution. I think I'll switch it with the armor penalty option. That way, you can't just decimate early enemies by using the curse.
Well, I'll try out the -2 Con for now, see how it goes. It's worth trying at low levels to see how it works out. Perhaps my fears are wrong, and it's not that amazing after all, just good.


Infinite cantrips? :smalleek: Do the makers realize you could abuse cure minor wounds?
1. Pathfinder removed Cure Minor.
2. Even if it wasn't, at 1 hp a round what's the harm? Entering each fight at full hp is a good thing, since it means less resources spent on cure items (though, having a few wands of good cures is advisable, for time-sensitive missions). I've played with infinite cure minor wounds, and it's not an issue in most styles of play.

I am considering a Knight/Debaser though, that'd be niiice. It could only be LN or LE though, which is mildly restrictive, but for a cult, they'd be great elite guards.

Temotei
2010-01-05, 09:46 PM
Ah, okies then! ^_^


Ah, well then, fair enough.


Well, I'll try out the -2 Con for now, see how it goes. It's worth trying at low levels to see how it works out. Perhaps my fears are wrong, and it's not that amazing after all, just good.


1. Pathfinder removed Cure Minor.
2. Even if it wasn't, at 1 hp a round what's the harm? Entering each fight at full hp is a good thing, since it means less resources spent on cure items (though, having a few wands of good cures is advisable, for time-sensitive missions). I've played with infinite cure minor wounds, and it's not an issue in most styles of play.

I am considering a Knight/Debaser though, that'd be niiice. It could only be LN or LE though, which is mildly restrictive, but for a cult, they'd be great elite guards.

Cure minor wounds could easily make your day that much better, and it makes the DM's job harder by basically forcing them to make encounters tougher. The upside is that the cleric never really has to worry about healing spells. Neither does the druid or paladin. The downsides: Full hit points at every fight + virtue = 1 hit point extra for most fights. Certainly not much, but it helps a little at early levels. Even at higher levels, there would be no point in not using virtue for that extra point. Also: Prestidigitation. :smalltongue:

I'll see about the Constitution as well. I'll take it back to what it was before, and then see how it works. If it's overpowered, I'll switch it to the upgraded version. Now that I think about it, I don't think it will be. -1 hp/level isn't that much at early levels. Sure, the orc might lose a hit point, but does it matter when you're already beating them to death in one hit?

Oh, and yes, a bunch of cool guards that curse enemies and drain them, then follow up with some stabs would be cool. They might not even have to resort to that, if the knights that use ranged weapons do use ranged weapons. :smallamused:

arguskos
2010-01-05, 09:57 PM
Cure minor wounds could easily make your day that much better, and it makes the DM's job harder by basically forcing them to make encounters tougher. The upside is that the cleric never really has to worry about healing spells. Neither does the druid or paladin. The downsides: Full hit points at every fight + virtue = 1 hit point extra for most fights. Certainly not much, but it helps a little at early levels. Even at higher levels, there would be no point in not using virtue for that extra point. Also: Prestidigitation. :smalltongue:
Personally, I don't see the issue here. Harder fights means more tactically interesting fights means more of a challenge. This to me is a good thing.

As for infinite cantrips, it's AWESOME. I'll never play a game that doesn't have inf. cantrips ever again. Gives casters something "magicish" to do each round, doesn't break anything, is great fun. I fully recommend it to anyone.


I'll see about the Constitution as well. I'll take it back to what it was before, and then see how it works. If it's overpowered, I'll switch it to the upgraded version.
Yah, that's the basic idea I was gonna roll with. :smallsmile: Either way, I think it'll work out decently well.

Realms of Chaos
2010-01-05, 10:24 PM
One thing that seems a bit odd about this class is its inability to lower an enemy`s con to 0.
This thing has no problem lowering an animals Intelligence to 0 (making it comatose) or lowering a golem`s Cha to 0 (making it an object), both of which are instant-win conditions, but it doesn`t let you actually kill foes.
I`d suggest either removing that line of text or stating that no ability can be lowered to 0 (keeping things uniform one way or another).

Temotei
2010-01-05, 10:48 PM
One thing that seems a bit odd about this class is its inability to lower an enemy`s con to 0.
This thing has no problem lowering an animals Intelligence to 0 (making it comatose) or lowering a golem`s Cha to 0 (making it an object), both of which are instant-win conditions, but it doesn`t let you actually kill foes.
I`d suggest either removing that line of text or stating that no ability can be lowered to 0 (keeping things uniform one way or another).

Fair enough. Do you think feeblemind could be abused then with the curse? Feeblemind + curse = Comatose or object. Which do you think is more balanced?

arguskos
2010-01-05, 11:08 PM
Fair enough. Do you think feeblemind could be abused then with the curse? Feeblemind + curse = Comatose or object. Which do you think is more balanced?
Eh, I hadn't noticed that, but it's a good objection. I think that reducing stats to a min of 1 is probably the best thing for balance.

Temotei
2010-01-05, 11:15 PM
Eh, I hadn't noticed that, but it's a good objection. I think that reducing stats to a min of 1 is probably the best thing for balance.

Done. I think so too. There are probably other ways to lower stats to 0 fairly easily, but I don't want that in my class. Although, scourge would still be cool with it...maybe. What do you think about that?

arguskos
2010-01-05, 11:31 PM
Done. I think so too. There are probably other ways to lower stats to 0 fairly easily, but I don't want that in my class. Although, scourge would still be cool with it...maybe. What do you think about that?
Sure. Scourge is already pretty powerful, but then again, it IS level 20. :smallbiggrin: Go for it.

Temotei
2010-01-05, 11:35 PM
Sure. Scourge is already pretty powerful, but then again, it IS level 20. :smallbiggrin: Go for it.

Sweet. I'm backed up. :smallamused:

EDIT: In other news, the fluff will be up either tomorrow or the next day, depending on my schedule. We'll see. :smallsmile:

As well, it's on my homebrew wiki (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=User:Temotei).

arguskos
2010-01-10, 10:06 PM
By the way, I thought I'd stop in and let you know that the debaser I built to fight my PCs this Saturday was quite the hit. The fight broke down like so:

PCs (all level 1):
-Elan Kineticist
-Gnome Bard
-Air Genasi Rogue (crossbow-focused)
-Human Ranger (uses a halberd, likes tripping people)

Enemies:
-Half-Orc Debaser 1
-Human Binder (bound to Paimon) 2 (rogueish, with a rapier and lots of tumble)
-Human Shadowcaster 2 (some non-lethal mysteries)

Yeah, the fight looks lopsided, but the Shadowcaster is pretty meh, the party is like crazy creative, and they're pretty well built, so it's about right for a tough encounter.

Basically, what happened was the poor Ranger gets taken down by the Shadowcaster's non-lethal attacks and the Binder's rapier while the Debaser tosses out some curses (not many work) and cantrip attacks. Sadly, on turn two when the Debaser slams the Bard with a Fell Drain, everyone turns to kill him first, and two crossbow bolts later, he's down for the count. The Binder drops to a lucky light xbow crit, and the Shadowcaster dies at max range thanks to the Rogue being amazing with that damn crossbow (crit at like 800 feet or something).

End theory so far about the Debaser: good, actually. Has something good to do each round (curse as swift is really really nice), is decently capable in a fight, and is all around fairly solid. He draws fire stupid fast though. :smallsigh: Fell Drain really terrified my players. I'll be giving them some more screen time in a few weeks, so I'll give you another update then.

Temotei
2010-01-10, 10:12 PM
By the way, I thought I'd stop in and let you know that the debaser I built to fight my PCs this Saturday was quite the hit. The fight broke down like so:

PCs (all level 1):
-Elan Kineticist
-Gnome Bard
-Air Genasi Rogue (crossbow-focused)
-Human Ranger (uses a halberd, likes tripping people)

Enemies:
-Half-Orc Debaser 1
-Human Binder (bound to Paimon) 2 (rogueish, with a rapier and lots of tumble)
-Human Shadowcaster 2 (some non-lethal mysteries)

Yeah, the fight looks lopsided, but the Shadowcaster is pretty meh, the party is like crazy creative, and they're pretty well built, so it's about right for a tough encounter.

Basically, what happened was the poor Ranger gets taken down by the Shadowcaster's non-lethal attacks and the Binder's rapier while the Debaser tosses out some curses (not many work) and cantrip attacks. Sadly, on turn two when the Debaser slams the Bard with a Fell Drain, everyone turns to kill him first, and two crossbow bolts later, he's down for the count. The Binder drops to a lucky light xbow crit, and the Shadowcaster dies at max range thanks to the Rogue being amazing with that damn crossbow (crit at like 800 feet or something).

End theory so far about the Debaser: good, actually. Has something good to do each round (curse as swift is really really nice), is decently capable in a fight, and is all around fairly solid. He draws fire stupid fast though. :smallsigh: Fell Drain really terrified my players. I'll be giving them some more screen time in a few weeks, so I'll give you another update then.

I'd greatly appreciate more feedback.

On fluff: I'm still coming up with it. Business at home and such keeps me...busy. :smallsmile:

I'll come up with it eventually! :smallamused:

arguskos
2010-01-10, 10:22 PM
I'd greatly appreciate more feedback.

On fluff: I'm still coming up with it. Business at home and such keeps me...busy. :smallsmile:

I'll come up with it eventually! :smallamused:
You'll get it.

I actually had to come up with something, since the party saved the Debaser for questioning! I ended up going with "the Debaser has a connection from birth to the Dark Speech, and that's what the curse is: a word of the Dark Speech that can harm his enemies". It was something on the fly.

Temotei
2010-01-11, 02:36 AM
You'll get it.

I actually had to come up with something, since the party saved the Debaser for questioning! I ended up going with "the Debaser has a connection from birth to the Dark Speech, and that's what the curse is: a word of the Dark Speech that can harm his enemies". It was something on the fly.

Interesting. I might use that. :smallbiggrin:

dsmiles
2010-01-11, 05:42 AM
Good work so far, but since I'm usually more interested in the fluff that goes along with a class, I'll reserve any more comments until after the fluff is posted.

Drolyt
2010-01-11, 09:48 AM
I think this is pretty good, but it's hard to tell without playing it. To a comment above, I don't think reducing scores to zero is that big of a deal, it's a penalty so it can't stack with itself and thus couldn't kill/disable anything with a score above 6. Actually I'm not sure it counts as a kill if it's a penalty, and I'm not sure penalties can normally reduce below 1 anyways. I'll check that later. Most everything (actually probably everything) you can do a Wizard can do better with their spells, but this is still a pretty cool class. Probably tier 3. The only balance issue is Fell Drain, since it is ability damage you can just use it over and over again. A Dragon will go down pretty fast. Also the bonus to AC/Saves is untyped, is it supposed to stack with everything? You should probably make it clear it doesn't stack with itself.

Temotei
2010-01-11, 05:18 PM
I think this is pretty good, but it's hard to tell without playing it. To a comment above, I don't think reducing scores to zero is that big of a deal, it's a penalty so it can't stack with itself and thus couldn't kill/disable anything with a score above 6. Actually I'm not sure it counts as a kill if it's a penalty, and I'm not sure penalties can normally reduce below 1 anyways. I'll check that later. Most everything (actually probably everything) you can do a Wizard can do better with their spells, but this is still a pretty cool class. Probably tier 3. The only balance issue is Fell Drain, since it is ability damage you can just use it over and over again. A Dragon will go down pretty fast. Also the bonus to AC/Saves is untyped, is it supposed to stack with everything? You should probably make it clear it doesn't stack with itself.

Considering the bonus only lasts Cha modifier rounds and there's a limited amount per day, I think leaving it untyped and stack-able is okay.

Tier 3 was my aim. Always is, always will be. :smallsmile: And never will I balance a class to a wizard's spells.

Drolyt
2010-01-11, 05:27 PM
Considering the bonus only lasts Cha modifier rounds and there's a limited amount per day, I think leaving it untyped and stack-able is okay.

Tier 3 was my aim. Always is, always will be. :smallsmile: And never will I balance a class to a wizard's spells.

Tier 3 is good to aim for, though I still like it when classes are able to do something a Wizard cannot. Untyped is fine, but I still don't think it should stack with itself. It becomes a pretty big bonus at higher levels. True it has a per day limit, but that limit is pretty large starting at mid-levels and by level 20 you have more than you could ever want to use. Also the option to add the bonus to attacks should be from level one and if you make it unstackable you could give all three bonuses and still be balanced. As the class is written I think it is tier 3, would be tier 4 without the spells. Also it doesn't really make a good melee class, it is almost 100% better to have the class stand back and debuff while the rest of the class deals damage, especially at higher levels.

arguskos
2010-01-11, 05:31 PM
Actually, it makes a decent melee class. Curse is a swift action you can use every round to penalize opponents. Fell Drain is a nice opener (though, given that it's a Full Round action, it is limited in usefulness) as a buff before wading into melee.

I stand by the statement that it is to the Hexblade what the Paladin is to the Fighter: a more magical, less break faces, version of it.

Drolyt
2010-01-11, 05:33 PM
Actually, it makes a decent melee class. Curse is a swift action you can use every round to penalize opponents. Fell Drain is a nice opener (though, given that it's a Full Round action, it is limited in usefulness) as a buff before wading into melee.

I stand by the statement that it is to the Hexblade what the Paladin is to the Fighter: a more magical, less break faces, version of it.

I should've clarified. I think it would work as a melee class, I just think as written it might be optimal to stay back and debuff. And yeah I like this class better than the Hexblade.

arguskos
2010-01-11, 05:39 PM
I should've clarified. I think it would work as a melee class, I just think as written it might be optimal to stay back and debuff. And yeah I like this class better than the Hexblade.
You've seen the Hexblade fix, right? The one that, you know, makes them good again.

As for the Debaser (still pulling for Corruptor here :smallwink:), at higher levels when you can rely on your spells more, so level 7+ or so, I'd say that yeah, standing back and casting/Fell Draining/cursing is better. Then again, I'd say that the Debaser serves as a great gish chassis, and with some good feats and decent stats, could do some fun things in melee.

Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter 2/Debaser X is a good base for cutting people into neat cubes, thanks to great Cha-synergy. Maybe mix in Hexblade for their curse and more BAB would be good, since you get the same synergies.

Temotei
2010-01-11, 05:43 PM
You've seen the Hexblade fix, right? The one that, you know, makes them good again.

As for the Debaser (still pulling for Corruptor here :smallwink:), at higher levels when you can rely on your spells more, so level 7+ or so, I'd say that yeah, standing back and casting/Fell Draining/cursing is better. Then again, I'd say that the Debaser serves as a great gish chassis, and with some good feats and decent stats, could do some fun things in melee.

Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter 2/Debaser X is a good base for cutting people into neat cubes, thanks to great Cha-synergy. Maybe mix in Hexblade for their curse and more BAB would be good, since you get the same synergies.

I think I will change the name to corrupter once I finish the fluff. I have some ideas that could use that name more gratuitously. :smallamused:

Drolyt
2010-01-11, 05:46 PM
You've seen the Hexblade fix, right? The one that, you know, makes them good again.

As for the Debaser (still pulling for Corruptor here :smallwink:), at higher levels when you can rely on your spells more, so level 7+ or so, I'd say that yeah, standing back and casting/Fell Draining/cursing is better. Then again, I'd say that the Debaser serves as a great gish chassis, and with some good feats and decent stats, could do some fun things in melee.

Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter 2/Debaser X is a good base for cutting people into neat cubes, thanks to great Cha-synergy. Maybe mix in Hexblade for their curse and more BAB would be good, since you get the same synergies.

I have not seen any Hexblade fixes, could you post a link? I don't really find the concept that interesting honestly, I mostly play arcane casters or gishes (mostly cause I like all the cool things spells let you do). As for this class, I like it as far as I would let someone play it in a campaign of mine and it would be cool if they were a member of my party, but I would probably never play one except maybe to try it out.

arguskos
2010-01-11, 05:50 PM
"The hexblade suffers a little because he came on the scene relatively early in 3.5's life.
As R&D pushes the boundaries of the game, we learn that some things we thought were risky
or potentially broken aren't. Other times, we learn things that look fine don't actually
work in play.

Armored mages fall into the first category. Them seem really powerful, but in the long run they aren't. Spells and magic items allow an unarmored mage to build great defenses. The spell mage armor is as good as medium armor, and its duration allows most mages to keep it active at all times. If you compare the hexblade to the duskblade from PH 2, you can see how the thinking has changed.

If you want to boost the hexblade, I'd try the following changes:

* Good Fortitude save
* Curse ability usable 1 + the hexblade's Cha modifier per day
* Curse ability usable as a swift action
* Curse ability does not count as used if the target makes his saving throw
* Ability to cast in light or medium armor and while carrying a light shield or buckler
* At 6th level, the hexblade can cast one hexblade spell per day as a swift action, as long as its original casting time is a standard action or faster. He gains an additional use of this power at levels 8, 11, 14, and 18.

The key to the hexblade is his curse ability, but it's a little un-fun to have it so limited in use. The hexblade also has trouble casting spells and using his melee attacks, so shifting spells to swift actions fits in with the idea of an armored mage."
This fellow quoted it from Mearls (the designer of the Hexblade) himself. It's a good one.

Temotei
2010-01-11, 05:50 PM
I have not seen any Hexblade fixes, could you post a link? I don't really find the concept that interesting honestly, I mostly play arcane casters or gishes (mostly cause I like all the cool things spells let you do). As for this class, I like it as far as I would let someone play it in a campaign of mine and it would be cool if they were a member of my party, but I would probably never play one except maybe to try it out.

Could you say why you would never play one?

Drolyt
2010-01-11, 05:55 PM
Could you say why you would never play one?

Sorry, I'm not saying I dislike your class, I just prefer mages. Not because because they are broken, but because I like the idea of a character who can fly, or teleport, or read minds, or transform into something else entirely, heck in some games I spent more time using my spells for roleplaying purposes than combat.
Edit: To elaborate, this class is really cool mechanically. I just don't think it would fit my roleplaying style. Anyone who liked the hexblade should like this though.

Temotei
2010-01-11, 05:57 PM
Sorry, I'm not saying I dislike your class, I just prefer mages. Not because because they are broken, but because I like the idea of a character who can fly, or teleport, or read minds, or transform into something else entirely, heck in some games I spent more time using my spells for roleplaying purposes than combat.

Indeed. I had played around with the idea of including transformation-type stuff, seeing as you could debuff someone with them, but I decided against it shortly after flipping through my books for spells.

Makes sense. Roleplaying is probably the best way to use your spells, just because it can be so much fun. Then again, so can be blowing them up or some such.

arguskos
2010-01-11, 06:00 PM
Yeah, I agree that this dude doesn't need nor want polymorph effects. His debuffs are more focused than that, which is a good thing in my mind.

Temotei
2010-01-12, 03:13 AM
Yeah, I agree that this dude doesn't need nor want polymorph effects. His debuffs are more focused than that, which is a good thing in my mind.

Indeed.

Fluff is still taking some time because of all the school work I have to catch up on. I was absent for some time, so now I'm rushing to get a few projects done for chemistry, biotechnology, and intro to psychology.

When I edit the fluff into the first post, I'll post at the end so everyone can see. :smallsmile:

Rauthiss
2010-01-12, 01:34 PM
I'm really liking this class, and hoping for a DM that will allow it in PbP. :3

Temotei
2010-01-12, 05:22 PM
I'm really liking this class, and hoping for a DM that will allow it in PbP. :3

I'm glad you like it. If you do find someone (shouldn't be that hard), would you mind telling me how it goes?

Temotei
2010-02-01, 12:33 AM
Fluff is up finally.

arguskos
2010-02-01, 12:47 AM
By the way, I had yet more Debasers in my session on Saturday. So far, the end result has been that Fell Drain is like wtfbbqamazing, and the Curse... hasn't done squat. It's never affected anyone. :smallsigh: This may be an artifact of it being DC 14 at level 1, and my whole party having a strong will save (Mystic Ranger, Rogue going Cleric, Bard, Psion), but it's been aggravating.

Though, there WAS a hilarious few turns where a Focalor Binder tag-teamed with a Debaser to lock down the Ranger for like 3 rounds. :smallbiggrin: Round 1: Debaser uses Fell Drain, Binder uses Focalor's Breath (1/5 rounds, blinds for 1 round on failed save). Ranger is blinded and -4 Str. Round 2: Debaser uses Daze, Binder blasts with lightning. Ranger is hurt and dazed. Round 3: Same as 2. Ranger STILL dazed and very hurt. Round 4: Debaser is finally shot dead by the Bard, Ranger charges and hacks down Binder.

Continuing thoughts: Debasers are squishy at low levels, but they're pretty good. Fell Drain is a GREAT 1/day trick, and actually reasonably powered. The Curse hasn't done squat yet, but I really think that's probably fine. It is a nice addition to everything else, and seems fine as is. I gave them shield proficiencies though, which helped them stand up in combat a bit. Light Mace+Light Wooden Shield gives them some offensive punch, while being decently protected at these low levels.

Warning: combining them with a real bruiser character like a Binder bound to Savnok or something really makes them scary. The tank can just absorb fire while the Debaser just camps out and spams Fell Drain/Curse/Daze/crossbow bolts. They're good at what they do, that's for damn sure.

Final Verdict: Good enough to make them a permanent addition to my games, and decent enough opponents to have made my party swear everlasting hatred of those, to quote them, "soul sucking bastards!" :smallwink:

Temotei
2010-02-01, 12:50 AM
By the way, I had yet more Debasers in my session on Saturday. So far, the end result has been that Fell Drain is like wtfbbqamazing, and the Curse... hasn't done squat. It's never affected anyone. :smallsigh: This may be an artifact of it being DC 14 at level 1, and my whole party having a strong will save (Mystic Ranger, Rogue going Cleric, Bard, Psion), but it's been aggravating.

Though, there WAS a hilarious few turns where a Focalor Binder tag-teamed with a Debaser to lock down the Ranger for like 3 rounds. :smallbiggrin: Round 1: Debaser uses Fell Drain, Binder uses Focalor's Breath (1/5 rounds, blinds for 1 round on failed save). Ranger is blinded and -4 Str. Round 2: Debaser uses Daze, Binder blasts with lightning. Ranger is hurt and dazed. Round 3: Same as 2. Ranger STILL dazed and very hurt. Round 4: Debaser is finally shot dead by the Bard, Ranger charges and hacks down Binder.

Continuing thoughts: Debasers are squishy at low levels, but they're pretty good. Fell Drain is a GREAT 1/day trick, and actually reasonably powered. The Curse hasn't done squat yet, but I really think that's probably fine. It is a nice addition to everything else, and seems fine as is. I gave them shield proficiencies though, which helped them stand up in combat a bit. Light Mace+Light Wooden Shield gives them some offensive punch, while being decently protected at these low levels.

Warning: combining them with a real bruiser character like a Binder bound to Savnok or something really makes them scary. The tank can just absorb fire while the Debaser just camps out and spams Fell Drain/Curse/Daze/crossbow bolts. They're good at what they do, that's for damn sure.

Final Verdict: Good enough to make them a permanent addition to my games, and decent enough opponents to have made my party swear everlasting hatred of those, to quote them, "soul sucking bastards!" :smallwink:

Sweet. That line makes me very happy, and I think I'll copy that into my sig. :smallcool: Or maybe into the fluff.

Fluff added about weapons under "Role."

sigurd
2010-02-01, 03:27 PM
Debaser’s Curse (Su): A debaser may call upon the darkness within to bring a curse upon an enemy as a swift action. When using this ability, the debaser chooses from two of the following effects, combining them to make the debaser’s curse, targeted on an enemy within 60 feet. The debaser must have line of sight to the target.

I think a swift action is too easy for a line of site power and an Hour is huge.

I'd suggest you add the limit that it is a swift action in a round the debaser doesn't attack.

I'd also suggest you change the duration to 'the end of the encounter' or 10 minutes.

Spells:

I like the limit to 6th level spells. I'd want to add 'Gentle Repose'


Oh and a Pathfinder option :)

Temotei
2010-02-01, 03:43 PM
I think a swift action is too easy for a line of site power and an Hour is huge.

I'd suggest you add the limit that it is a swift action in a round the debaser doesn't attack.

I'd also suggest you change the duration to 'the end of the encounter' or 10 minutes.

Spells:

I like the limit to 6th level spells. I'd want to add 'Gentle Repose'

The curse takes a swift action, while the hexblade uses a free action. They both have the same duration. The only difference is that this curse doesn't really suck. :smallwink: I don't really see a problem with an hour for a duration. Plenty of spells do far worse.

Do you have a reason for gentle repose? It kind of goes against the whole "debuffing" theme.

sigurd
2010-02-01, 03:49 PM
This ability cannot lower a creature's abilities to 0. The mutilate property does not allow an opponent's armor or natural armor bonus to fall beneath 0. The cripple property does not allow speed to be dropped to 0'.


You say what the abilities and speed cannot be but not their minimum. I know someone is going to say 'He's not at 0' he can move 1 foot a round'.


Gentle Repose: These guys would make great henchmen but if they are going to go killing people and collecting bodies they need GR.



Sigurd

Temotei
2010-02-01, 04:03 PM
You say what the abilities and speed cannot be but not their minimum. I know someone is going to say 'He's not at 0' he can move 1 foot a round'.


Gentle Repose: These guys would make great henchmen but if they are going to go killing people and collecting bodies they need GR.



Sigurd

:smallsigh: You're right that players are anal and will take it that literally. Changed.

arguskos
2010-02-01, 05:17 PM
Gentle Repose: These guys would make great henchmen but if they are going to go killing people and collecting bodies they need GR.
Gentle repose REALLY doesn't fit well. I mean, the rest of their spell list is more about debuffing someone into the ground and then hacking them to pieces. I recommend against it. It might make an interesting change though, to make them more about preservation. That'd be an interesting variant perhaps.

As for the Curse, see my analysis above for my feelings. Also, Temotei, the Hexblade was a free action only because swift didn't EXIST then. The Hexblade fix the designer put forth changes it to a swift action that doesn't expend a use if it fails in combat. :smallwink: Just sayin'.

Temotei
2010-02-02, 01:16 AM
Gentle repose REALLY doesn't fit well. I mean, the rest of their spell list is more about debuffing someone into the ground and then hacking them to pieces. I recommend against it. It might make an interesting change though, to make them more about preservation. That'd be an interesting variant perhaps.

As for the Curse, see my analysis above for my feelings. Also, Temotei, the Hexblade was a free action only because swift didn't EXIST then. The Hexblade fix the designer put forth changes it to a swift action that doesn't expend a use if it fails in combat. :smallwink: Just sayin'.

Those are my thoughts on gentle repose as well.

Oh yeah...Complete Warrior --> Swift/immediate action. :smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2010-02-02, 12:07 PM
Those are my thoughts on gentle repose as well.

Oh yeah...Complete Warrior --> Swift/immediate action. :smallbiggrin:
I do not recall swifts existing in that book. In any case, the Hexblade update changes their Curse to be more in line with later publications in making sense. :smalltongue:

Temotei
2010-02-02, 12:29 PM
I do not recall swifts existing in that book. In any case, the Hexblade update changes their Curse to be more in line with later publications in making sense. :smalltongue:

That's what I meant by the arrow (passage of time). I should have made that more clear.

Anyway, I'm going to try out a debaser for my campaign, so I'll test both fell drain and the curse (probably bolstered).