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View Full Version : A warlock "fix" P.E.A.C.H.



Desmond Tiny
2010-01-04, 10:42 PM
This is a possible way to improve the warlock by making it more powerful and versatile. It is my first homebrew so I hope its good.







Warlock
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Invocations(least), Eldritch Blast 1d6
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Detect Magic
3rd|+2|+1|+1|+3|Eldritch Blast 2d6, DR 1/cold iron
4th|+3|+1|+1|+4|Deceive Item
5th|+3|+1|+1|+4|Eldritch Blast 3d6
6th|+4|+2|+2|+5|DR 2/cold iron, Invocations(lesser)
7th|+5|+2|+2|+5|Eldritch Blast 4d6
8th|+6/+1|+2|+2|+6|Fiendish Resilience 1
9th|+6/+1|+3|+3|+6|Eldritch Blast 5d6
10th|+7/+2|+3|+3|+7|DR 3/cold iron, Energy Resistance 5
11th|+8/+3|+3|+3|+7|Eldritch Blast 6d6, Invocations(greater)
12th|+9/+4|+4|+4|+8|Fiendish Resilience 2, Imbue Item
13th|+9/+4|+4|+4|+8|Eldritch Blast 7d6
14th|+10/+5|+4|+4|+9|DR 4/cold iron
15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+5|+9|Eldritch Blast 8d6
16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10|Fiendish Resilience 3, Invocations(dark)
17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10|Eldritch Blast 9d6
18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+6|+11|DR 5/cold iron, Fiendish Resilience 5
19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|Eldritch Blast 10d6
20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|Energy Resistance 10[/table]energy resistance 10
{table=head]Level|Invocations known
1st|1
2nd|2
3rd|3
4th|4
5th|4
6th|5
7th|6
8th|7
9th|7
10th|8
11th|9
12th|10
13th|10
14th|11
15th|12
16th|13
17th|13
18th|14
19th|15
20th|16[/table]
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Warlocks are proficient with all simple weapons light armor but not shields. A warlock can ignore spell failure chance if it is for light armor but has spell failure chance for medium and heavy armor.
Invocations: A warlock knows a number of invocations equal to 3/4 of his class level rounded down plus one. She can learn invocations of any grade up to the highest grade she knows. Invocations are spell-like abilities. Using an invocation is a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity. A warlock can use any invocations she knows at will. The save DC for an invocation if it allows a save is 10+equivalent spell level+ the warlock’s charisma modifier. He cannot benefit from spell focus or any metamagic feats. He can benefit from ability focus and any feats that emulate metamagic for spell-like abilities. Each level a warlock can replace one invocation he knows with another he could know. Invocations are subject to arcane spell failure chance.
Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Blast is a ray with a range of 100 ft. It requires a ranged touch attack and is subject to spell resistance. It deals 1d6 damage at 1st level and does more damage as the warlock increases in level.
Detect Magic: Beginning at 2nd level a warlock can use the spell detect magic as the spell at will.
Damage Reduction: A warlock has damage reduction 1/cold iron and it increases as the warlock increases in level.
Deceive Item: A warlock can take 10 on use magic device checks even if distracted or frightened.
Fiendish Resilience: Beginning at 8th level a warlock can enter a state that lasts for 2 minutes and gains fast healing equal to his fiendish resilience value.
Energy Resistance: At 10th level a warlock gains energy resistance 5 against two of the following types of energy: acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic. This resistance increase to 10 at level 20.
Imbue Item: A warlock of level 12 or higher can create magic items even if he does not know the spells required. He must still know the item creation feat. He can use a use magic device check of DC 15+ spell level for arcane or DC 25+spell level for divine spells. If he succeeds he can create the item but if he fails he cannot create the item but does not expend the resources for making the item. He cannot make a use magic device check for that spell until he gains a level.

Desmond Tiny
2010-01-04, 10:43 PM
Deafening Blast
Lesser: 4th; eldritch essence
This eldritch essence allows you to turn your eldritch blast into a deafening blast. A deafening blast deals sonic damage and you target must succeed on a DC 16 fortitude save or be deafened for 5 minutes.

Dark shield
Lesser: 3rd
You may create a shield of dark energy that gives you a deflection bonus to your AC equal to your charisma modifier.

Strength Sap
greater: 6th
With a touch attack you can deal 1d6 points of strength or dexterity damage to a target unless they succeed on a DC 20 fortitude save. You gain 5 temporary hit points per point of damage dealt up to a maximum of 30.

Desmond Tiny
2010-01-04, 10:44 PM
reserved for epic warlock

TabletopNuke
2010-01-04, 11:05 PM
I think you forgot/misstyped some table tags. It's a real pain to code tables.

Desmond Tiny
2010-01-04, 11:09 PM
could you tell me what the code is so I can redo it.

Anonymouswizard
2010-01-05, 10:45 AM
could you tell me what the code is so I can redo it.

(Remove the *s):
{table*]Level|Epicness
1-20|Not close
21+|Epic[/table*]
for:
{table]Level|Epicness
1-20|Not close
21+|Epic[/table]

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-01-05, 11:40 AM
Just quote my post and copy the table:

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Invocations(least), Eldritch Blast 1d6
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Detect Magic
3rd|+2|+1|+1|+3|Eldritch Blast 2d6, DR 1/cold iron
4th|+3|+1|+1|+4|Deceive Item
5th|+3|+1|+1|+4|Eldritch Blast 3d6
6th|+4|+2|+2|+5|DR 2/cold iron, Invocations(lesser)
7th|+5|+2|+2|+5|Eldritch Blast 4d6
8th|+6/+1|+2|+2|+6|Fiendish Resilience 1
9th|+6/+1|+3|+3|+6|Eldritch Blast 5d6
10th|+7/+2|+3|+3|+7|DR 3/cold iron, Energy Resistance 5
11th|+8/+3|+3|+3|+7|Eldritch Blast 6d6, Invocations(greater)
12th|+9/+4|+4|+4|+8|Fiendish Resilience 2, Imbue Item
13th|+9/+4|+4|+4|+8|Eldritch Blast 7d6
14th|+10/+5|+4|+4|+9|DR 4/cold iron
15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+5|+9|Eldritch Blast 8d6
16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10|Fiendish Resilience 3, Invocations(dark)
17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10|Eldritch Blast 9d6
18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+6|+11|DR 5/cold iron, Fiendish Resilience 5
19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|Eldritch Blast 10d6
20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|Eldritch Blast 11d6, Eenergy Resistance 10[/table]

Jane_Smith
2010-01-05, 03:41 PM
My biggest issue with the warlock, and your own im afraid, is that its eldritch blast isnt... whats the word? Steady? Rather then a 'set' 1d6 at 1st level, +1d6 every two levels thereafter (capping at 10d6 at 19th level), the eldritch blast damage is just kinda puked out on the level chart for both warlocks.

Also, it could use 1-2 more overall invocations. I came up with a homebrew warlock myself for pathfinder recently that uses this chart for invocations;

Invocations Known
Level/Number Known
1st-- 2
2nd-- 3
3rd-- 3
4th-- 4
5th-- 5
6th-- 5
7th-- 6
8th-- 6
9th-- 7
10th- 8
11th- 8
12th- 9
13th- 9
14th- 10
15th- 11
16th- 11
17th- 12
18th- 12
19th- 13
20th- 14


Another big issue is that warlock invocation selections are to thin. I have been researching fiendish codex, book of vile darkness, etc, trying to revert some of the spells, such as bone blast, serpant tongue, devil's tail, contagion, pox, pestilience, etc as warlock powers. Not to mention abyssal might, hell's power, etc, for the more melee-oriented warlocks.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-05, 03:51 PM
Rather then a 'set' 1d6 at 1st level, +1d6 every two levels thereafter (capping at 10d6 at 19th level), the eldritch blast damage is just kinda puked out on the level chart for both warlocks.

Well put, JS.

However, I assume WotC had a good reason for not giving the warlock a set eldritch blast progression. Something like that usable at will is a powerful ability.


Also, it could use 1-2 more overall invocations. I came up with a homebrew warlock myself for pathfinder recently that uses this chart for invocations

I've never played Pathfinder, but I do know that it's a bit more powerful that standard D&D. That is very important to keep in mind when using it as homebrew reference.


Another big issue is that warlock invocation selections are to thin. I have been researching fiendish codex, book of vile darkness, etc, trying to revert some of the spells, such as bone blast, serpant tongue, devil's tail, contagion, pox, pestilience, etc as warlock powers. Not to mention abyssal might, hell's power, etc, for the more melee-oriented warlocks.

There are several new invocation threads going right now. You should take a look at those. Perhaps you'll find something you're looking for.

Desmond Tiny
2010-01-05, 06:07 PM
Does anyone have any comment on whether this is balanced?

Tim4488
2010-01-05, 06:15 PM
The only changes I see are the increased Eldritch Blast damage and the increased number of Invocations known. I had a Warlock in a campaign that ran up to about 8th or 9th level, and he did fine (really, was one of the stronger members of the party) at all levels. Now, my party is not made of people who optimize to extremes or anything, but still. You say you want to make the Warlock class more versatile, which worries me a little bit: the point of the class, as I read it, is a loss of versatility in exchange for power, especially staying power. He knows fewer tricks than other casters because he never runs out of them. (In particular, that specific Warlock I had completely destroyed an Encounter Trap from Dungeonscape by knowing the Invocation that grants Shatter). Not to bash you, but I'm just not sure the class needs much fixing.

Kallisti
2010-01-05, 06:41 PM
I'm curious. Why did you want to fix the warlock? I'm not bashing you for fixing something that doesn't need fixing--I think the extra invocations are a good idea, since most warlock invocations are pretty balanced and it's a little hard to run a good battlefield control character on limited options--I'm honestly curious.

Zaydos
2010-01-05, 07:14 PM
I've ran a warlock from 3rd through 8th level and DM'd for one from 12th to 20th. In the low level case it kept up with blaster mages (domain wizard, sorcerer, etc) but they weren't optimized so, meh. It actually remained reliable and grew steadily stronger and was above average for the group in power (10 characters, 2 wizards, 2 sorcerers, 1 beguiler, 1 Dread necromancer that turned warlock, 1 cleric, 1 Arcane Hierophant, it, and 1 duskblade that turned badly built bard). The beguiler optimized save DCs and the AH simply focused feats and spells on their animal companion, they were the only two stronger than it and then only questionably; everyone else just blasted stuff and took feats all over the place.

The high level game was DMPC Arcane Hierophant (focused on keeping CL up and having a good animal companion), Knight/homebrewed PrC (underpowered), Ninja 8/Shaman 8/homebrewed PrC to combine the two 4 (cause it needed it), and warlock 20. The warlock dealt low damage, but would not die. It would have had to be a TPK for him to die and even then he might have survived.

At low levels the warlock played just fine, unless you have heavy optimization of high tier characters it's fine. At high levels it has trouble keeping up with high tier characters and optimizing for defense the damage started to lag ~ Lv 15 or 16 even compared to non-optimized melee.

I'd say a small damage boost (you have one above) is in order and probably +1 invocation of each grade (+4 in total) along with a larger pool of invocations is in order. I'd say that in my experience they probably don't need 1 invocation/level, though.

Desmond Tiny
2010-01-05, 07:18 PM
Should I just use the warlock as it is with a nonoptimised group of players or should I only add a few more invocations.

Tavar
2010-01-05, 07:23 PM
Depends. One simple fix that I think would work well would be the following:
Unique invocations per day:
{table=head]Level|least|Lesser|Greater|Dark
1|1|0|0|0
2|2|0|0|0
3|2|0|0|0
4|3|0|0|0
5|3|0|0|0
6|3|1|0|0
7|3|1|0|0
8|3|2|0|0
9|3|2|0|0
10|3|3|0|0
11|3|3|1|0
12|3|3|1|0
13|3|3|2|0
14|3|3|2|0
15|3|3|3|0
16|3|3|3|1
17|3|3|3|1
18|3|3|3|2
19|3|3|3|2
20|3|3|3|3
[/table]
You can also use a lower level invocation in a higher level slot, but it counts as a use for the day.

As for the warlock's power level, the fact that it does less damage than a rogue is a bad sign, especially if they're main purpose is to deal damage. The fact that they don't run out doesn't counter that other characters do, so unless the entire party is Warlocks it won't be a huge benefit.

Zaydos
2010-01-05, 07:52 PM
Should I just use the warlock as it is with a nonoptimised group of players or should I only add a few more invocations.

What level?

Warlock does fine at low levels. A rogue deals a little more damage on a hit but has a much less chance of hitting (normally 1d6+weapon enchantment+Str damage) and if you can get a chausible of fell power the difference is even less. When the rogue can make multiple attacks per round you can use Eldritch Glaive to do the same. Also Beshadowed Blast can be fun, and you will have some utility powers left over to match against a rogue's skills.

At high levels? Your damage is way down unless you use hellfire warlock (which I haven't actually seen used 1st hand). Chausible can help but will only be +3.5 or +7 damage/round. Eldritch Glaive can triple your damage (which is nice) against one creature and combined with Binding or Utterdark Blast can force 3 save or sucks too. That said a nice little damage boost and a few more invocations would help.

Honestly? It works levels 3-8 in an unoptimized group and 12-16/17 in a group where all full casters are 3 to 6-8 levels behind in casting. By 20th it needs a boost, and a few extra invocations would be nice. I stated above I'd go +1/grade; maybe granting an extra 1 at 1st level, 7th level, 12th level, and 17th level (not as smooth as I'd like). I do like what you've done with Eldritch Blast damage at high levels and think it's a large improvement.

Edit: Also find some nice homebrewed invocations and let them in, but from your other threads I know you're already looking into that.

Edit II: the low-level warlock I played used the fey skin and fey bloodline feats for +3 to DR, you could possibly do something like double the DR of warlocks but I don't think that would be necessary in an unoptimized game.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-05, 08:48 PM
What level?

Warlock does fine at low levels. A rogue deals a little more damage on a hit but has a much less chance of hitting (normally 1d6+weapon enchantment+Str damage) and if you can get a chausible of fell power the difference is even less. When the rogue can make multiple attacks per round you can use Eldritch Glaive to do the same. Also Beshadowed Blast can be fun, and you will have some utility powers left over to match against a rogue's skills.

At high levels? Your damage is way down unless you use hellfire warlock (which I haven't actually seen used 1st hand). Chausible can help but will only be +3.5 or +7 damage/round. Eldritch Glaive can triple your damage (which is nice) against one creature and combined with Binding or Utterdark Blast can force 3 save or sucks too. That said a nice little damage boost and a few more invocations would help.

Tier system aside, one problem with saying one class is better than another is the vagueness of the statement. Better at damage dealing? Better at battlefield control? Better and debuffing? There are many ways a class can be considered superior to another. I'll assume that you mean "better" in terms of effectiveness in combat.

It is true that a mid to high level warlock will probably not be able to match a wizard in damage-dealing capability. However, general consensus among optimizers is that, at high levels, battlefield control and crippling status conditions are more efficient means of winning battles than dealing damage.

In other words, if you want to "optimize" your warlock, don't be a blaster, be a strategist. Disrupt your enemies' strategy by dividing up the battlefield with a wall of fire, blind their archer, wrap up the spellcaster in crushing tentacles, and confuse their fighter.

One undeniable advantage wizards do have over warlocks is choices. Wizards have hundreds of spells in dozens of books to choose from, while warlocks have a comparative handful of invocations to chose from in books that can be counted on one hand. The only way I can think of to fix this is though homebrewing. While one could restrict the wizard's spell selection to the PH spells, we all know no one wants that.

I feel that the main problem for the warlock is the conditions of the battle. In a truly brutal campaign, in which the PCs had to face battle after battle without stopping to rest, the warlock would truly shine. "Oh, Mr. Sorcerer, are you out of spells? Well, don't worry about me, I can keep blasting these guys all day." Usually, campaigns aren't though out this way.

And if you really want to take the wizard down a peg, put the PCs in a setting where the wizard can't access their spellbook to prepare spells. The tier system doesn't take things like time limits into account. The wizard isn't so tough without a spellbook, is she? "PCs taken hostage and stripped or their belongings? Poor Ms. Wizard, let Lord Warlock handle this."

Why yes, I am a cruel Dungeon Master.

Tavar
2010-01-05, 10:04 PM
The problem is that the warlocks battlefield control sucks. You have to be 5-6 levels above an a wizard to do comparable things. That's not going to make you effective.

If you're that low on spells, then the party is also low on HP, and so everyone either has to rest your you're going to start killing off players.

Yes, wizards without spellbooks suck. So do pretty much every class that needs gear (melee classes, skill classes, etc).

TabletopNuke
2010-01-05, 11:19 PM
The problem is that the warlocks battlefield control sucks. You have to be 5-6 levels above an a wizard to do comparable things. That's not going to make you effective.

If you're that low on spells, then the party is also low on HP, and so everyone either has to rest your you're going to start killing off players.

Yes, wizards without spellbooks suck. So do pretty much every class that needs gear (melee classes, skill classes, etc).

So, warlocks suck, and so do melee and skill classes, and wizards? Lets see, that leaves us with...sorcerers, and...clerics and druids. Enjoy your 3 classes.

Tavar
2010-01-05, 11:27 PM
I didn't say that. But the fact is that the situations that the warlock shines in severely nerf most other classes, and the rest still surpass it.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-06, 12:33 AM
I didn't say that. But the fact is that the situations that the warlock shines in severely nerf most other classes, and the rest still surpass it.

Ah. Okay.

To be honest, the reason I never played a wizard was a crippling paranoia that the DM would put me in a situation where I couldn't access my spellbook. I even feared the limitations that being silenced or immobilized would place on my spellcasting. I guess I just assumed that all DMs were as brutal as I am.

I'm amazed that my players haven't killed me yet.

Temotei
2010-01-06, 12:34 AM
Ah. Okay.

To be honest, the reason I never played a wizard was a crippling paranoia that the DM would put me in a situation where I couldn't access my spellbook. I even feared the limitations that being silenced or immobilized would place on my spellcasting. I guess I just assumed that all DMs were as brutal as I am.

I'm amazed that my players haven't killed me yet.

Silly...that's what rope trick is for.

Anonymouswizard
2010-01-06, 02:11 AM
Tier system aside, one problem with saying one class is better than another is the vagueness of the statement. Better at damage dealing? Better at battlefield control? Better and debuffing? There are many ways a class can be considered superior to another. I'll assume that you mean "better" in terms of effectiveness in combat.


With the wizard, pick anything a character could do except charging into the enemy lines and in/out of combat healing.

The wizard does it better :smallamused:

Latronis
2010-01-06, 02:36 AM
With the wizard, pick anything a character could do except charging into the enemy lines and in/out of combat healing.

The wizard does it better :smallamused:

That's what summons are for

TabletopNuke
2010-01-06, 12:52 PM
My misgiving with the "unique invocation" idea is that the principle idea for the warlock class is at-will abilities.

It sounds like the general consensus is that you should make the eldritch blast progression +1d6/2 levels, and add one more invocation of each grade. Why don't you type that up and see what kind of response you get?

Tavar
2010-01-06, 12:54 PM
My misgiving with the "unique invocation" idea is that the principle idea for the warlock class is at-will abilities.

How does that interfere with the principle? It just means that you get to use different sets of invocations each day.

Anonymouswizard
2010-01-06, 06:46 PM
How does that interfere with the principle? It just means that you get to use different sets of invocations each day.

Yes, we have an invoking erudite.

Proven_Paradox
2010-01-06, 08:06 PM
An invoking Erudite actually sounds pretty cool... I might play around with that idea sometime if I can find some spare time.

Still, this 'fix' doesn't really do much. To really be a fix, one has to identify and address the problems. Warlock is unimpressive, but will never be useless since Eldritch Blasts are always at least marginally applicable. I would say that the primary problem with the class is that it's an endurance, go all day every day class in a game that often breaks down to doing one or two encounters and then resting for spells. If it comes down to endurance (and I mean serious endurance, in-game hours of nearly continuous fighting) then I suspect Warlocks will begin to pull ahead of other casters eventually. Presuming we're not yet at levels where a Wizard can just cast one spell to end any conflict and/or Persistant spells aren't being flung around, of course. Hours of continuous in character conflict is difficult to manage, and in my experience (both as a GM and a player) it's more common and often more fun to have fewer, higher powered conflicts instead, in which case a Warlock by definition is not going to seem terribly powerful.


Fixing the Warlock would require altering the class such that functions best in short bursts (at which point, why not just play a Sorcerer?) or altering the game such that endurance actually matters (which is in the hands of the DM). Either way, I don't think it works out that well. Warlock still functions and contributes at least; there are worse things one could be.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-06, 08:55 PM
How does that interfere with the principle? It just means that you get to use different sets of invocations each day.

Oh, sorry. I misread it as unique invocations a limited number of times a day.

An erudite invoker does sound pretty cool. If the warlock could switch out their invocations as each day brought new situations, a greater focus on Knowledge skills might be appropriate.

Desmond Tiny
2010-01-06, 10:44 PM
I isolated the problem by making eldritch blast more steady and giving the warlock more invocations. I made a table of invocations and change how many the warlock gets. I decreased the maximum eldritch blast damage from 11d6 to 10d6 at 19th level.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-06, 11:03 PM
Sweet. Playtest it and let us know how it turns out.

Latronis
2010-01-06, 11:06 PM
I dont think the overall number of invocations the warlock gets is a problem, though the progression is perhaps a little slow. The biggest problem is what they have available to choose from.

Desmond Tiny
2010-01-07, 06:07 PM
I added some new invocations.