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Boci
2010-01-05, 08:44 AM
Just got curious, how many fighter builds are there floating around that work in a tier 3 game, at lower to mid levels at least? I know of three (for the purpose of this thread, let's assume a fighter build has at least 50% of its levels as fighter):
P.S. I have tried to keep ToB dips to a minimum since if you are dipping you may as well just retrain most if not all fighter levels into an initiator class

1. Lock down: Human or dwarf / Fighter / Crusader - main feats: exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain), combat reflexes, stand still, mage slayer, supernatural crusader, defensive sweep (and martial study and stance if you want pure fighter).
Stand in the middle of combat, use stand still to prevent enemy movement and defensive sweep to generate AoO against monsters that remain adjacent to you.
Notes: Miss chance screws with it, hard time against teleporting enemies (somewhat mitigated by mage slayer and supernatural crusader).
Viable when thicket of blades is aquired (level 9 for crusader dip, 12 for martial study), matures with defensive sweep
Tier: Mid 3

2. Dungeon Crasher: Goliath or half-minatour dwarf or human / Dungeoncrasher Fighter / CC Lion Totem Barbarian - main feats: power attack, improved bullrush, shock trooper, knockback
Tactics: Charge, bullrush, damage, repeat
Notes: Miss chance screws with it, Only does HP damage, less useful out in the open
Viable from level 6, matures with pounce and knockback
Tier: High 4

3. Dual wielding critter: Human / Zhentarim Soldier fighter - main feats: Imperious command (requires 15 char), two-weapon fighting, improved critical, staggering critical, power attack, resounding blow
Tactics: full attack, staggering enemy on a crit to prevent them full attacking, swift action intimidate one opponent per round
Notes: Ineffective against fear and crit immune enemies (useless in an undead heavy campaign), very MAD. Also I believe there is some weapon on armour enhancement I am missing that gives intimidate and two weapon fighting some more synergy.
Viable with staggering critical, matures with resounding blow
Tier: High 4

4. Three monutain bruiser: Human or dwarf / Fighter - main feats: two-weapon fighting, oversized two-weapon fighting, weapon focus, three mountain style
Tactics: Spread attacks out, nausiating as many creatures as possible
Notes: Does not funcion against enemies immune to nausia
Viable with three monutains
Tier: Highish 4

5. Jack be quick: Human or dwarf / Fighter - main feats: high axe low sword, robilar's gambit, karmic strike, twin strike, combat reflexes, improved trip probably using the overpowering attack ACF
Tactics: Get hit, hit back harder
Notes: Does more damage when it is not his turn relying on AoOs
Viable: with karmiac strike, matures with robilar's gambit
Tier: High 4

So yeah, these are the three I know. I vaguely recall a two weapon fighter using the idea that a shield is just a weapon that grants an AC bonus, but I do not remember the details. Are there any more?

Runestar
2010-01-05, 08:56 AM
There was a "jack-be-quick" build which combines high axe low sword, robilar's gambit, karmic strike and combat reflexes to effectively give you 6 attacks for every time the enemy struck you. Quite feat intensive though, and really only comes together at mid-high lvs (~lv12).

Dimers
2010-01-05, 09:16 AM
Seems like there must be something you can do with Three Mountains style feat ... but I'm not much of an optimizer, as I've discovered in the last two months while reading this forum, plus I don't have a lot of the better books. A build based around that would want pounce and quite possibly Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, and it'd be best for a frenzied berserker (save DC is based on Str mod). The Three Mountains prerequisites have plenty of synergy with Shock Trooper.

Add BoED's "Resounding Blow" to your dual-wielder. It's a general and fighter feat, isn't exalted, and can cause cowering (scaling Will save) on a crit.

Yuki Akuma
2010-01-05, 09:22 AM
Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting is a trap. Don't take it - just wield a light weapon in your offhand, the damage difference is minuscule.

Dimers
2010-01-05, 09:33 AM
Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting is a trap. Don't take it - just wield a light weapon in your offhand, the damage difference is minuscule.

Ahh, but if you're trying to get 2+ hits per round with any of three weapons which are not light, so as to set off the feat's conditions ... And it's worthwhile even if you have multiple attacks per round and a ridiculously high chance to hit, since (A) natural 1s happen and (B) you could potentially inflict the Three Mountains nausea on more than one target per round.

But yeah, in terms of damage, it's basically pointless. No pun intended.

Boci
2010-01-05, 11:17 AM
Add BoED's "Resounding Blow" to your dual-wielder. It's a general and fighter feat, isn't exalted, and can cause cowering (scaling Will save) on a crit.

That might have been the one I was missing, thanks.

Telonius
2010-01-05, 11:25 AM
You could modify Saph's Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) build to work as more Fighter-centric. Substitute two Fighter levels for two of the Ranger levels, and I think it should get you what you need. (Worst case, you'll have to take two extra Fighter levels and delay the Horizon Walker PrC).

Gnaeus
2010-01-05, 11:27 AM
What does "work in a tier 3 game" mean. Do you mean actually rises to tier 3 (at least in a combat sense)? Tiers usually function if within 1 level of each other, so a tier 4 fighter (like a dungeoncrasher) will work in a tier 3 game, but won't actually be tier 3, and will suck if its trick doesn't work. An ubercharger build can be devastatingly effective, but it isn't tier 3. It is a very strong tier 4. Jack B quick is another really strong tier 4. It has a good trick, but if its trick doesn't work it isn't much.

For my money, Lockdown builds are the only fighter builds that come close to tier 3 (in a combat sense only). They are good against crowds. Good against casters (as much as a fighter can be). Not easily negated by terrain. If their lockdown trick doesn't work, they can still fall back on dealing damage with their two handed weapon.

Boci
2010-01-05, 12:00 PM
There was a "jack-be-quick" build which combines high axe low sword, robilar's gambit, karmic strike and combat reflexes to effectively give you 6 attacks for every time the enemy struck you. Quite feat intensive though, and really only comes together at mid-high lvs (~lv12).

Okay added. I assume without aptitude weapons you would use twin blade style to attack with both weapons on an AoO, once for RG and once again for KS (if the attack hits) then trip and then attack again for 5 attacks, assuming a dex of 16 + 4 per extra creature attacking you..

Boci
2010-01-05, 12:05 PM
What does "work in a tier 3 game" mean.

Origionally it meant on par with a slightly optimized tier three class but I'll just scrap that and add a tier rating.

Runestar
2010-01-05, 08:59 PM
Here's the thread for the jack-be-quick build.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick

The lynch-pin of this build is the double-hit feat (miniature's handbook), which lets you attack with both your weapons on an AoO (crucial for triggering high sword low axe).

So enemy attacks you, triggers 2 AoOs, you trip on one of them, getting another attack, for a total of 6 (remember each AoO is made with 2 weapons).

Slight MAD (since you want high str and dex for tripping and fueling AoOs). Also, this assumes the DM allows both karmic strike and robilar's gambit to stack (still a somewhat contentious point even to this day).

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-05, 09:40 PM
How come the build doesn't use Knockdown?