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Din Tempre
2010-01-06, 08:34 AM
I am about to start a low magic campaign with a DM who is issuing a 10 gp cost per spell level per spell cast, in addition to components, which will cost. Please note that 10 gp is arbitrary, and I don't know how much that is in a normal game, perhaps 1 cp or 1 silver or 100 PP, no idea yet. I was curious if you thought wizards or clerics are still a good choice in this campaign, since although I don't know how much it costs to equip a fighter, the reward will be the same, and it is known to be high endurance dungeons. Thought, opinions on this system I am about to encounter? Has anyone else tried a system where magic is a reverse philosopher stone?

Debihuman
2010-01-06, 08:48 AM
You'll have to ask your DM about the economy of the setting. If magic is rare, but you gain lots of wealth when you adventure, then buying components won't be a problem. Generally, keeping track of components is a boring task.

Debby

Latronis
2010-01-06, 08:56 AM
oh cost as in literal cost.

Well that really does depend on the campaign.

Din Tempre
2010-01-06, 09:02 AM
I am having trouble coming to terms with how this would make playing a wizard fun. If it is worthless, why bother counting? If it is significant, why cast spells ever if the fighter can kill it? If the fighter can't kill it, why are we fighting it at a given level? It's this thought process that has me troubled.

Latronis
2010-01-06, 09:07 AM
I'd be more concerned about why spellcasting makes money dissappear from your wallet

Johel
2010-01-06, 09:21 AM
By RAW, a Spell component pouch costs 5 gp and has everything you need and your wizard is assumed to pick up components as he travels, with their cost being so low it doesn't need to be kept track of. So, for an initial 5 gp, you then get everything you'll ever need to cast simple spells.

Now, if your DM wants magic to become expansive or unpractical but doesn't want to make spellcasters useless, he can simply say that the pouch has enough components to cast [X] spell levels.

This, of course, means the Eschew Materials feat become gold.
Two ways to solve that problem : ban the feat OR add another cost to magic.
And the cost is...MANA POTIONS !!
That's it, to wield magic is a dangerous and tiresome activity. Spellcasters, both divine and arcane, need a little boost to attune their fleshy human body to the mystical energies they are about to manipulate.
To use spells without potion is possible but there'll be a backslash of 1d4 damage per spell level. This means your 1st level wizard better get his medicine or stick to cantrips.

Din Tempre
2010-01-06, 09:33 AM
This, of course, means the Eschew Materials feat become gold.
Two ways to solve that problem : ban the feat OR add another cost to magic.
And the cost is...MANA POTIONS !!
That's it, to wield magic is a dangerous and tiresome activity. Spellcasters, both divine and arcane, need a little boost to attune their fleshy human body to the mystical energies they are about to manipulate.
To use spells without potion is possible but there'll be a backslash of 1d4 damage per spell level. This means your 1st level wizard better get his medicine or stick to cantrips.

Banned, obviously. Now see if this had been a reason, that would have been much better, especially since the caster has a choice (even if one is impractical). But the invisible magic-taxman assigned to everyone when they start studying that you can't try to cheat, is a big clamp on freedom, which I thought was the point.

Demented
2010-01-06, 09:52 AM
Average treasure hall for a by-the-book level 1 encounter is 300 gp. Between 4 players, about 75 gp each. For a level 5 encounter, 1600 gp, 400 gp each.

Your DM should consider that 9th level spells a be far more than 9 times as powerful as 1st level spells. 10 gp is expensive for a level 1 spell, while 90gp for a level 9 spell is a pittance. Scrolls take this into account with their prices.


I am having trouble coming to terms with how this would make playing a wizard fun. If it is worthless, why bother counting? If it is significant, why cast spells ever if the fighter can kill it? If the fighter can't kill it, why are we fighting it at a given level? It's this thought process that has me troubled.
If done right, it could encourage you to find more creative uses for less expensive spells and challenge you to be more efficient with your casting, as well as find other ways for your wizard to be effective in combat.

More likely, your DM is expecting you to be Sir Blastalot with empty pockets, in which case it won't be of any benefit. It would also make no sense for a Cleric; they're granted spells by divine right, they don't purchase them at the local MagiMart.

Nonetheless, you can always resort to the ultimate revenge for cost-per-spell campaigns:
Charge your companions for your services. :smallbiggrin:

Din Tempre
2010-01-06, 10:04 AM
More likely, your DM is expecting you to be Sir Blastalot with empty pockets, in which case it won't be of any benefit. It would also make no sense for a Cleric; they're granted spells by divine right, they don't purchase them at the local MagiMart.

Nonetheless, you can always resort to the ultimate revenge for cost-per-spell campaigns:
Charge your companions for your services. :smallbiggrin:


Would the Forgotten Realms setting (weave) give any basis for all spell-casters taking the same hit? What about spells that are different level for each class (Duskblade casts 8 as 5 I think). Druids, Clerics, Warlocks, Wizards, everything that says "spell" with a level is taking the hit.

It seems a good intent from a DM who doesn't realize this rebalances everything, not just the magic level. Hey, but pure fighter with WF is finally worth taking *rolls eyes*

Guess that means you should always save your best spells for in case they don't pay up...

Johel
2010-01-06, 10:30 AM
If it's really just "I cast a 1st-level spell and mysteriously lose 10 gp", then I would just go for a martial class. Especially if the whole setting is a low-magic setting to begin with.

Still, if you want to play a spellcaster, go for the Craft Wand feat asap.
1st-level wands become REALLY cheap with this system.
Your DM's system :
To cast a 1st-level spell 50 times, it costs you 500 gp.
A 1st-level wand, at CL 1, cost 750 gp.
The wand is 50% more expansive but at least you can use it whenever you want, without spell slot limit.
By RAW :
To cast a 1st-level spell 50 times, it costs you nothing.
A 1st-level wand, at CL 1, cost 750 gp.
The wand is really expansive. It's worth it for utility spells or healing spells. Nothing else.

lesser_minion
2010-01-06, 10:37 AM
If it's really just "I cast a 1st-level spell and mysteriously lose 10 gp", then I would just go for a martial class. Especially if the whole setting is a low-magic setting to begin with.

Still, if you want to play a spellcaster, go for the Craft Wand feat asap.
1st-level wands become REALLY cheap with this system.
Your DM's system :
To cast a 1st-level spell 50 times, it costs you 500 gp.
A 1st-level wand, at CL 1, cost 750 gp.
The wand is 50% more expansive but at least you can use it whenever you want, without spell slot limit.


No dice. By RAW, if it cost 10gp to cast the spell, you'd also have to pay that cost 50 times when you made the wand.

Din Tempre
2010-01-06, 10:45 AM
It just seems so unbalancing, in the wrong way. So if it's supposed to make really high power stuff rare, it breaks even more than RAW for the wizard (90 gp for level 9 spells, please) in a world where +4 is epic. But at low levels, where casters are more in line with the party level, and wealth is low, they are gimped. So it is kind of like grinding, you go through a painful bore and then all of a sudden you get super-uber-awesomeness. Doesn't seem to even fit the purpose of the fiat. It should be noted I'm the new guy to the group so I have little weight to change things. I mostly need advice on how to deal/take advantage of this rebalance.

Lysander
2010-01-06, 11:24 AM
Perhaps a fairer cost would be to require an expensive focus for each spell that wears down over time? For example, Scorching Ray could now require a tiny gold rod covered with small rubies. Hold Person could now require a spider silk rope. Each time you cast the spell the focus has a chance of suffering damage, and over time it'll eventually disintegrate into nothingness.

That way you won't have to be an accountant and be charged for each spell, but you'll avoid flinging spells when possible in order to keep your tools from wearing down and requiring a costly replacement.

Din Tempre
2010-01-06, 11:26 AM
The DM wants to do both though, and I can't understand the X GP per cast rule.

Johel
2010-01-06, 11:31 AM
It just seems so unbalancing, in the wrong way. So if it's supposed to make really high power stuff rare, it breaks even more than RAW for the wizard (90 gp for level 9 spells, please) in a world where +4 is epic. But at low levels, where casters are more in line with the party level, and wealth is low, they are gimped. So it is kind of like grinding, you go through a painful bore and then all of a sudden you get super-uber-awesomeness. Doesn't seem to even fit the purpose of the fiat. It should be noted I'm the new guy to the group so I have little weight to change things. I mostly need advice on how to deal/take advantage of this rebalance.

Best advise I can give you is to expose him how absurd such penalty is.

1st-level wizards can't even cast a spell, as the starting gold is barely enough for their equipment. They are basically commoners with weapon proficiency and good skill ranks.
5th-level wizards don't care about the cost, as they are already filthy rich and selling a single magic item will make them even more so.
11th level wizards, if any exist, periodically cast "Wall of Iron" for 110 gp, then sell several tons of iron to blacksmith, 500 sp / ton. That's still half the market price of raw iron, yet the wizards still make enough money to increase their wealth exponentially until the economy collapse...
In a classical DnD worlds, wizards don't use these cheap tricks too often because they simply don't need to.
Then offer him alternatives, based on the comments of other posters above.

Anonymouswizard
2010-01-06, 11:35 AM
The DM wants to do both though, and I can't understand the X GP per cast rule.

Nither can I.

So, he wants to rebalance magic? That system is not going to work.

"Hello, yes you have just damaged the fabric of the universe. You should die, but we'll let you of if you pay us a small amount of money."

Din Tempre
2010-01-06, 11:43 AM
I'm concerned, I was told to remember wizards are proficient with crossbows :smalleek:.

Johel
2010-01-06, 11:48 AM
I'm concerned, I was told to remember wizards are proficient with crossbows :smalleek:.

That's to remind you NOT to use magic missile at 1st level.
Either you have make a reputation of yourself as a blaster...or your DM thinks that wizards = sorcerers.

In either case, fact is that a 1st-level wizard is a walking library rather than a magic machine gun. But if he has to use his crossbow, then the party's not doing things correctly. Actually, if the wizard has to fight at all, the party isn't doing things correctly.

Latronis
2010-01-06, 08:24 PM
at start of playing the cost is crippling expensive. This is the point at the game where your basically dead for 3 of your daily 4 encounters. You might actually contribute with the right spell choice once a day. Power Word: Pain is quite nasty at first level. But otherwise you have too little spells to be a mage at first level for the standard 4 daily encounters, even less so given that you said it's endurance dungeons.

Since you can't afford to cast spells anyway you use your resources available to do what you can do. You sell your spell book

You start with a spellbook containing every cantrip in the campaign world, and 3 + intelligence mod 1st level spells. That's a lot of pages. So that's a damn fortune for the first couple of levels. Get yourself a tower shield, mithral chain shirt, and half a dozen magebred riding dogs and turn every single encounter all day long into a walkover until you hit 3rd level and can start doing things like Magic Aura'ing phantom steeds to rip off earn enough to buy a new spellbook.

Then once you hit about 5th level you ignore the blasting spells, and your utility and crowd control starts to take over and the spell cost is irrelevant.

At the highest level you can solo hunt dragons for income far beyond what you'll ever spend.

Temotei
2010-01-06, 08:44 PM
Shouldn't this go in the roleplaying games section?

sigurd
2010-01-06, 10:18 PM
Don't try to abuse his rules. It won't win you anything - he can always make more rules.


Tell him you're sorry he won't allow spellcasters by the game rules and play a non spellcaster, or find a new group, or offer to DM.

Ask him if any of your opponents will be spellcasters?

Latronis
2010-01-06, 10:40 PM
I wasn't suggesting breaking his campaign as bringing up how his changes may not effect anything, or leading to breaking of his campaign

Din Tempre
2010-01-07, 02:34 AM
Word from DM says that he specifically wants to discourage walking around buffed all the time. So barbarian then?

Latronis
2010-01-07, 02:47 AM
Word from DM says that he specifically wants to discourage walking around buffed all the time. So barbarian then?

Not gunna do it. It'll promote extend, persistent, and longer lasting buffs rather then repeated buffs. Assuming prices stay upwards so the cost remains expensive for your level.

And more encounter shattering spells.

Anonymouswizard
2010-01-07, 04:35 AM
Ask him what happens if you don't pay the money. If he says "you cannot getout of paying the money" or cannot get an answer, either DM or try to find a better solution for him (or if he cannot find a reason, play a RAW bard). Are you still using Vancian casting , or are you using spell points, or is there no spell slots. If there are no spell slots or points) play a mage just to show him how broken the system is. (Calculate how much GP you get from an adventure, and then divide it up amoung the highest level of spells you can cast. So, as by RAW an average adventure would level you up you should only be casting 9th level spells at 17th level).

Din Tempre
2010-01-07, 11:17 AM
Well, he's not going to budge at this point so I am curious how class effectiveness changes in a world where +3 is the best NPC shops have, most magic has an un-ignorable component cost, and there is a magic toll booth to the weave with an unavoidable cost of 10gp per spell level per cast, and starting at level 2. I am thinking a half-giant Fighter 5/Cryokineticis 5/Lasher 8/Cryo 5/Lasher 2/Fighter X would be a powerful build to work towards, shining from level 6 on (at least the ECL from the HG doesn't hurt me in this campaign). Are there other builds to consider that become better but won't piss off the DM? *Gasp* Maybe mindblade?

Anonymouswizard
2010-01-07, 11:35 AM
Play a normal psion. As it is psionics not magic it ignores the gp cost. So you don't lose your pp (not PP, you still lose those, maybe gp would of been better).

Din Tempre
2010-01-07, 11:53 AM
Psionic casting is outright banned, but wild-talent is still allowed for mind-blades and kineticists to exist. Weird, but they're not -psionic- in this universe. Pretty much every alternate magic system (including nine swords) is out except truenaming, but I think even these rules don't encourage them (probably have to pay too! No one remembers the truename language because it sucks so bad no one cares.).

Random832
2010-01-07, 12:13 PM
Ask him if any of your opponents will be spellcasters?

Yeah but they only have to pay for the spells they cast in the fights against _you_, rather than taking a crippling hit to their WBL for having had to have paid for every spell they cast throughout their entire career. Standard "it's balanced because it also applies to NPCs" kind of thing, in other words. And of course the gold they burn during the fight comes out of the treasure you get at the end.

Reluctance
2010-01-07, 12:23 PM
What do you want us to do? Knock on your DM's door and have a heart-to-heart? Especially when on your side, you're unable to rationalize spells having costly material components.

Honestly, your DM's suggested houserule looks like it's having its desired effect of turning magic from a powerful and cheap resource that you break out in every encounter, into a powerful yet pricey one you save for when you really need it. Your options are to just build a bloody ubercharger, or build a batman with a lot of sudden metamagic feats who casts one souped-up spell that wins the entire encounter.

Or you could, y'know, talk with everybody and be honest about what you want. If you want a high powered, high fantasy game and everybody else has a taste for grittier fare, the best option might be wishing everybody well and finding a game more to your tastes, rather than pissing everybody off by trying to optimize and force everybody else to play your way.

sigurd
2010-01-07, 01:58 PM
I don't think its a bad thing to narrow magic\psionic options - for one thing it makes world design easier. I do think a solution of making each and every spell cost the wizard more is incomplete and awkward.


Sigurd

Din Tempre
2010-01-07, 03:28 PM
What do you want us to do? Knock on your DM's door and have a heart-to-heart? Especially when on your side, you're unable to rationalize spells having costly material components.

Honestly, your DM's suggested houserule looks like it's having its desired effect of turning magic from a powerful and cheap resource that you break out in every encounter, into a powerful yet pricey one you save for when you really need it. Your options are to just build a bloody ubercharger, or build a batman with a lot of sudden metamagic feats who casts one souped-up spell that wins the entire encounter.

Or you could, y'know, talk with everybody and be honest about what you want. If you want a high powered, high fantasy game and everybody else has a taste for grittier fare, the best option might be wishing everybody well and finding a game more to your tastes, rather than pissing everybody off by trying to optimize and force everybody else to play your way.

I'm no longer worried about how it will play out, because it will as it will. I am now simply wondering what you think would be a good way to play in this altered universe, since I don't have much experience with houserules in general (most of the games I played were with people who took RAW to heart, accepting it's flaws but deferring in all but the most broken cases). This is not supposed to be a conflict of interests, but how I should adjust.

Latronis
2010-01-07, 08:54 PM
Divine Magic costs too?

Would he or she or it allow variants of paladins\rangers without any spellcasting?

Charging partial casters the same full casters kinda hurts them more imo.