Beguilers on the sidelines

[quiet1mi]

I was recently told my Grey Elf Beguiler cannot be allowed to contribute to fights out of fear that I would unbalance the encounter...

At level 11 my beguiler has an Intelligence of 24, both Spell Focus (Enchantment) and Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment), Spell Penetration, Darkstalker, and my hide/move silently is currently only at +22 each...

My level 5 enchantment spells have a save DC: of 25...

After looking through the Srd for creatures with CR 10-11 and the highest will save among them is +12, other monsters have will saves between +10-11...

If my Beguiler fought them a single Hold monster, Feeblemind, or Charm Monster, I would succeed 60-70% of the time... 95% of the time if I start things off with a mind fog.

If the DM threw multiple creatures with a will save of +10-11 to compensate for my single creature lock down, I would just counter the problem with Friend to Foe/Incite Riot, Rainbow Pattern or even Mass Whelm. This results in a single character "Winning" the fight...

My Dm saw this and countered with high hit dice, Animals only to be hit with a ray of stupidity...

Next was a swarm of Koa-Toa with class levels, bringing the buggers will save to +12 (They are slaves to drow so have been build a resistance to enchantment spells with Will save boosting feats) in a lagoon... Because my beguiler only has a strength of 6 I had to hold on to the party's fighter's back ... After a few rounds of the party getting swarmed by Koa-Toa... I let loose several Mass Whelm and knocked them unconscious good and proper... (Turns out DC 24 Will save or take 10D6 nonlethal damage to ten targets is kinda good)

To change the situation the GM threw a Beholder with class levels... only to be hit with Solid Fog and a Darkness on a sovereign glued rock to the beholders forehead from the Enlightened Fist of the group... After totally shutting down the encounter, I enabled the party to escape a fight that would have had a considerable drain on our resources.

After seeing this, the next major encounter was in a relatively relatively small room, against a Vampire Cleric with True Sight.... Now I could not do anything except haste the party, surround him with legion of sentinels (The vampire had a ring of blink) and sit on my bum hoping the fight went in our favor...

I understand that my beguiler is powerful, I understand that his class is summed up to battlefield control and Save or lose spells... but is there an in between of me dominating an encounter and participating in it?

[RagnaroksChosen]

well first to be fair alot of them didn't realy participate in the other fights that you shut down so...

But eaither way you should pick up a bow or xbow or some ranged weapon so you can haste every one the just sit back and ping during those undead fights.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Not unless your DM learns to craft encounters better.

[Mike_G]

It's fairly easy to nerf a Beguiler with Undead, constructs, etc.

It's also not too hard to play nice with the party, since Haste, Solid Fog, Invisibility for the Rogue etc are all Beguiler spells.

I play a support Beguiler pretty often in a party consisting of (wait for it) a Monk, a Samurai (Ftr with appropriate feats, not a CW Samurai) and a Barbarian, and nobody get's too overshadowed. We have no Cleric, so I handle the healing and Restorations with scrolls and wands and my massive UMD.

[Zincorium]

Frankly, you're over-optimized for the group you're in.

What would probably be best is if you buffed the group- beguilers do get a few good ones, including haste. The trick is not going directly for the jugular on everything the DM wants to use and instead making the fight easier for the rest of the party.


That said, your DM doesn't seem very imaginative- undead or constructs can really mess up a beguiler's day.

[Zaydos]

I used vermin. Immunity to mind-affects, often tremorsense, and non-ability Int for Ray of Stupidity immunity. Undead work too, so do Constructs.

[Eldariel]

The usual Mindless-list, along with things immune to Mind-Affecting in spite of having a Mind is pretty simple. Class levels that boost Will-saves, along with equipment and such could show up often enough to be relevant. Also, things with casting of their own.

Meh, you can still buff and all, but opps with Will-saves don't get one-shot. And honestly, yeah, it's mostly a DM problem if the encounters can't keep what boils down to a focused Enchanter with stealth in check.

[quiet1mi]

Any Ideas for the GM so I can prepose something rather than sound like a complaining ninny...

Here is the character sheet, equipment towards the bottom...

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=175235 (Amon Amos)

[RagnaroksChosen]

i don't think there is a ton the GM can do besides having a good mix of fights that you don't do alot in and fights that you one shot.

Its an unfortunate side effect i've noticed about BC. Eaither you win the fight or you sit back and buff/ping with xbow/etc...

What the gm can do is eaither optimise a few monsters in each group to have high will saves. (like realy high will saves). or throw mixed groups...

Example being like a few goblins and some undead... or in your case koa-toa's with some undead...
that way you can BC some of the group but the fights not a 1 shot.


Or even different will saves..
Or even other casters...

By the way what else do you have in your group.

[Eldariel]

Any Ideas for the GM so I can prepose something rather than sound like a complaining ninny...

"The usual Mindless-list, along with things immune to Mind-Affecting in spite of having a Mind is pretty simple. Class levels that boost Will-saves, along with equipment and such could show up often enough to be relevant. Also, things with casting of their own."

Also, everything else in this thread. Also, opponents acting from surprise, opponents warded by some protections, larger groups of opponents spread far enough apart to avoid AoE-effects, etc. You won't be useless, but you won't be able to nuke everything.

[Leewei]

You can't target what you can't see. Hidden opponents, darkness, etc. all will work fine against you.

[Deth Muncher]

Alternatively, start taking feats that let you get around creature immunities. You WILL rape their minds (*casts Summon Colin*).
/beingajerk

No, fo' cereal, if you've built a powerful character, there's not a lot DMs can do to keep balance if one person overshadows the group. You CAN go buffbot/blasting with wands in your spare time, but that may not be your thing.

[mostlyharmful]

It's always hilarious when people suggestion mindless things as a challenge for beguilers, it just means you switch to illusions and use a lower level spell to BC.

[Mongoose87]

A little SR, a little immune to mind effecting, some Clerics casting True seeing - there's a lot that oculd be done to counter you. Really, this is poor DM-Fu.

[Thurbane]

In my experience of DMing a Beguiler PC and currently being a PC in a party with one: yes, they can definitely tip the balance of most encounters, but no more so than most other full casters. In a battle with large number of weaker foes or 1 large boss foe where the opponent(s) don't have a great Will save, the Beguiler can end the encounter very, very quickly. His ability to spam things like Confusion, Hold Monster, Slow and such can quickly bring most foes to their knees. A Sorcerer can do the same, but from a vastly smaller selection of spells per level.

Also, the relatively high amount of immediate spells they get can be very annoying. It seems like when monsters finally do get within striking range of the Beguiler, he pops off Halt or Greater Mirror Image before they can hit.

...having said that, I don't think the Beguiler is too overpowered, but in my experience, he does suffer a little from "doesn't play well with others" or "spotlight hog", but again, no more so than most other casters.