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Drolyt
2010-01-06, 12:15 PM
My entire line of Homebrews can now be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7715477&postcount=60). Original Post is inside the last spoiler. This was an attempt to make the Sorcerer and Wizard equal. Instead of the complicated mess in the original post, simply make the following adjustments:
Spells Per Day

{table=head]Level|0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9

1st|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|6|5|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|6|6|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4th|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5th|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-|-|-
6th|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-
7th|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-|-
8th|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-
9th|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-
10th|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-
11th|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-
12th|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-
13th|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-
14th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-
15th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-
16th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-
17th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3
18th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4
19th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5
20th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6
[/table]

Spells Known

Same as Spells Per day, except all 0th level spells. You gain the same bonus spells known from a high charisma as you do spells per day (see table 1-1 in the Player's Handbook or here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilityScores) in the SRD.
{table=head]Level|0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9

1st|All|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|All|5|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|All|6|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4th|All|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5th|All|6|5|3|-|-|-|-|-|-
6th|All|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-
7th|All|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-|-
8th|All|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-
9th|All|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-
10th|All|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-
11th|All|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-
12th|All|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-
13th|All|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-
14th|All|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-
15th|All|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-
16th|All|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-
17th|All|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3
18th|All|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4
19th|All|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5
20th|All|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6
[/table]

Feats: Gain Eschew Materials as a Bonus Feat at first level. At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels you gain a bonus feat which can be either a Metamagic Feat, a Heritage Feat, or a Draconic Feat.
Metamagic Sorcerers do not take a longer time to cast metamagic enhanced spells, and can therefore use quicken spell.
Skills Make 4 + Int Modifier per level and add all Knowledge Skills as well as Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Gather Information, and Intimidate.

There, that should be good to make the Sorcerer and Wizard fairly even. You are free to use this variant as you see fit including in your own homebrew.
I have noticed a number of projects to try and improve/replace Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 edition. I am very intrigued and have a number of ideas of my own, but I don't have the time at the moment for a gigantic revision. I will instead post some of my ideas in the form of standalone homebrew. To start with I am going to try and bring two similar classes closer together in terms of power level: the Wizard and Sorcerer. After that I'm going to try my hand at mending the brokenness of some of their spells so that they cease to steal the show completely; although I prefer to buff weak classes rather than nerf strong ones some arcane spells are simply beyond hope. Without further ado, here is the new rebalanced Sorcerer. I've bolded changes from the SRD Sorcerer.
Sorcerer
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d4
Class Skills: The sorcererís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (All Skills, Taken Individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) ◊4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.
The Sorcerer
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Summon Familiar,Eschew Materials, Heritage|*|2

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3||*|3|-

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3||*|3|2|-

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4||*|4|3|-|-

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Bonus Feat|*|4|3|2|-|-

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5||*|4|4|3|-|-|-

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5||*|5|4|3|2|-|-|-

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|Bonus Feat|*|5|4|4|3|-|-|-|-|-

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6||*|5|5|4|3|2|-|-|-|-

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7||*|5|5|4|4|3|-|-|-|-

11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Bonus Feat|*|5|5|5|4|3|2|-|-|-

12th|
+6|
+4|
+4|
+8||*|5|5|5|4|4|3|-|-|-

13th|
+6|
+4|
+4|
+8||*|5|5|5|5|4|3|2|-|-

14th|
+7|
+4|
+4|
+9|Bonus Feat|*|5|5|5|5|4|4|3|-|-

15th|
+7|
+5|
+5|
+9||*|5|5|5|5|5|4|3|2|-

16th|
+8|
+5|
+5|
+10||*|5|5|5|5|5|4|4|3|-

17th|
+8|
+5|
+5|
+10|Bonus Feat|*|5|5|5|5|5|5|4|3|2

18th|
+9|
+6|
+6|
+11||*|5|5|5|5|5|5|4|4|3

19th|
+9|
+6|
+6|
+11||*|5|5|5|5|5|5|5|4|4

20th|
+10|
+6|
+6|
+12|Bonus Feat|*|5|5|5|5|5|5|5|5|5[/table]
* Sorcerers have no limit on how many 0th level spells they may cast in one day.
Class Features

All of the following are class features of the sorcerer.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a sorcererís gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.

Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcererís spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcererís Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Sorcerer. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

A sorcererís selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing all 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice, in addition to any bonus spells for a high charisma (see below). At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells; his base number of spells known (except for 0th level spells) is the same as his base number of spells per day. He also receives bonus spells known if he has a high charisma; use table 1-1 in the Player's Handbook (Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells) to determine bonus spells known just as you do for bonus spells per day. These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer canít use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

Upon reaching 3rd level, and every level thereafter, a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spellís level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells heíll cast.

Unlike other spontaneous casters, a Sorcerer's may cast spells enhanced by metamagic feats without increasing the casting time. Because of this he can use Quicken Spell normally.

Familiar:
A sorcerer can obtain a familiar. Doing so takes 24 hours and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp. A familiar is a magical beast that resembles a small animal and is unusually tough and intelligent. The creature serves as a companion and servant.

The sorcerer chooses the kind of familiar he gets. As the sorcerer advances in level, his familiar also increases in power.

If the familiar dies or is dismissed by the sorcerer, the sorcerer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude saving throw. Failure means he loses 200 experience points per sorcerer level; success reduces the loss to one-half that amount. However, a sorcererís experience point total can never go below 0 as the result of a familiarís demise or dismissal. A slain or dismissed familiar cannot be replaced for a year and day. A slain familiar can be raised from the dead just as a character can be, and it does not lose a level or a Constitution point when this happy event occurs.

A character with more than one class that grants a familiar may have only one familiar at a time.

Eschew Materials: A Sorcerer's method of casting is more natural than a Wizards. He gains this feat as a bonus feat at first level.

Heritage: At first level a Sorcerer must decide from where he derives his supernatural powers. He gains a bonus feat. This bonus feat must be either a heritage feat (a feat with the heritage or draconic descriptors), or a feat of which the DM approves that fits the character concept(if you are restricted to feats in the Player's Handbook you instead gain Spell Focus in the school most closely aligned to the source of your power).

Bonus Feats: At 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 20th levels a Sorcerer gains a bonus feat. This feat must be either a Metamagic Feat, a Heritage Feat, a Draconic Feat, or a Sorcerer Feat.

The idea here is to increase the Sorcerer's versatility without allowing him to become stronger (or weaker) than the Wizard. So the idea was to focus on what makes the two classes different mechanically while enhancing the fluff as well: he gets the same number of spells every day as a Wizard but cannot change them out every morning; instead he can freely cast them in any order. The fluff is tackled with bonus feats related to the Sorcerer's heritage. The reason the Sorcerer gets more feats than a Wizard is that I think the Wizard might still have an edge without them. Also most of the feats come after 5th level, trying to make single class Sorcerers more attractive. This is important since Wizards usually have a better pick of Prestige Classes. I also increased the Sorcerer's skill points and gave him all knowledge skills and a few interaction skills. The reason a Sorc gets more weapon proficiencies is that he doesn't have to train as much as a Wizard, I'm simply applying that to skills (though Wizards will still have more).
Edit: I'm wondering whether the Sorcerer's spells/day and spells known shouldn't be higher... I don't want the Sorcerer to outshine the Wizard, but I think as I have it the Wizard's still got him beat.
Edit #2: I've given him the same number of spells per day as a specialist wizard, and also the same amount of spells known. This should make the sorcerer just as strong as the Wizard, but hopefully not too strong. As a side note, I think level 0 spells should be cast an infinite number of times per day for all classes (nixing cure minor wounds/inflict minor wounds), but I didn't include that so this could be used in a standard campaign. Edit 3: I included it.

jiriku
2010-01-06, 12:52 PM
I like this change a great deal. As a player, I don't think I'd be enthused about playing it, because all the skill points and feats gained probably still don't counteract the pain of losing 2 spells per day at every level. On the other hand, gaining higher level spells a level sooner than the stock sorcerer makes the pain a bit less. All in all, this creates some opportunity cost in taking a prestige class, although many prestige classes offer enough to make up for the loss of three bonus feats and 20 skill points.

Drolyt
2010-01-06, 12:55 PM
I like this change a great deal. As a player, I don't think I'd be enthused about playing it, because all the skill points and feats gained probably still don't counteract the pain of losing 2 spells per day at every level. On the other hand, gaining higher level spells a level sooner than the stock sorcerer makes the pain a bit less. All in all, this creates some opportunity cost in taking a prestige class, although many prestige classes offer enough to make up for the loss of three bonus feats and 20 skill points.

Do you think I should give him more spells/day? I like tying spells known to spells per day, it makes the Sorcerer feel more like a fixed list Wizard. I want him to be on roughly even terms with the Wizard, and then once I fix some spells I should be able to make both classes a bit less broken. Maybe one more spell known and one more spell per day so that Sorcerers are as good as specialist Wizards at least? Even with the lower spells per day this class is better than the base Sorcerer (I think).

Milskidasith
2010-01-06, 01:05 PM
This is now strictly worse than a wizard (or more worse, anyway) A sorcerer now knows less spells than before and has far less spells per day (instead of slightly more) has a worse casting stat (still), less skill points (because it's not int focused), and in exchange he gets bonus feats and a heritage.

So basically, it's an even worse caster, but now it gets bonus feats... doesn't really make up for the fact it's less versatile than a wizard and now can't cast as much, either. I would see no problem with keeping the old spells/day table and giving them that many spells known; a wizard can easily afford to know dozens of spells of any level, the least you can do is let the sorcerer have the (theoretical) advantage in spells/day.

Drolyt
2010-01-06, 01:12 PM
This is now strictly worse than a wizard (or more worse, anyway) A sorcerer now knows less spells than before and has far less spells per day (instead of slightly more) has a worse casting stat (still), less skill points (because it's not int focused), and in exchange he gets bonus feats and a heritage.

So basically, it's an even worse caster, but now it gets bonus feats... doesn't really make up for the fact it's less versatile than a wizard and now can't cast as much, either. I would see no problem with keeping the old spells/day table and giving them that many spells known; a wizard can easily afford to know dozens of spells of any level, the least you can do is let the sorcerer have the (theoretical) advantage in spells/day.

Actually he knows quite a few more spells, that was the biggest point of the fix. I'm not sure what you mean by can't cast as much as a Wizard, he could cast as much as a Wizard and now that I've edited him as much as a specialist Wizard. I'll think about giving him the old spell progression. I just don't wonder if it will make the Sorcerer too powerful. Do note that my modification fixed some other problems with the Sorcerer (metamagic and slower casting progression). Did you notice I edited to give him more spells, he now casts as many spells a specialist Wizard, knows up to five spells of every level modified by his Charisma modifier, can spontaneous metamagic without increasing casting time, and gets more bonus feats than a Wizard? Also now knows all 0th level spells, although that's not that big of a deal. Edit: And now they never run out of 0th level spells.

Temotei
2010-01-06, 07:00 PM
I don't think they're on par with the wizard. Just saying.

I like how you added some more skills to choose from. The skill points/level is debatable, but okay in my book.

At first glance, it looks like a lot of feats though.

Milskidasith
2010-01-06, 07:11 PM
Actually he knows quite a few more spells, that was the biggest point of the fix. I'm not sure what you mean by can't cast as much as a Wizard, he could cast as much as a Wizard and now that I've edited him as much as a specialist Wizard.

A specialist wizard could cast more than him, easily, before the edit. Focused specialist still beats the new edit. He knows more spells, true (well, sort of; before he barely knew any more, but did know an extra ninth level in exchange for less of the lower levels; now he knows more), but he still knows far less than wizards.


I'll think about giving him the old spell progression. I just don't wonder if it will make the Sorcerer too powerful. Do note that my modification fixed some other problems with the Sorcerer (metamagic and slower casting progression).

The main problem is spells known.


Did you notice I edited to give him more spells, he now casts as many spells a specialist Wizard, knows up to five spells of every level modified by his Charisma modifier, can spontaneous metamagic without increasing casting time, and gets more bonus feats than a Wizard?

Yes, he got all that, except I don't remember the sorcerer having spells known come from charisma when I first posted. With that in place, this is pretty much good, and in fact, unless the wizards specifically divine answers to things and are optimized, it's probably about as powerful, though bumping a class up to T1 usually isn't a good thing except in optimized games anyway.


Also now knows all 0th level spells, although that's not that big of a deal. Edit: And now they never run out of 0th level spells.

Both of those are entirely irrelevant.

Drolyt
2010-01-06, 07:30 PM
Good points, though the add Charisma to spells known was always there. Perhaps that was why you thought he knew less. The only thing I really need to respond to is your comment that bumping a class up to tier 1 isn't a good thing. The main thing is that Sorcerers shouldn't be penalized compared to Wizards, the most comparable class. Beyond that I think the real problem is the spells. If the most broken spells and effects are fixed I think I can bring all the tier 1 classes down to tier 2 or 3 without sacrificing any of their defining features. Bring everything else up to tier 3 and we are good; the caster classes will inevitably be more versatile, but as long as every class gets to shine and none of them break the game that is good. Also I'm not interested in Focused Specialization, that was a poorly thought out and overpowered variant that should not have been made, besides Sorcerers aren't limited in their school selection.

Temotei
2010-01-06, 07:41 PM
Good points, though the add Charisma to spells known was always there. Perhaps that was why you thought he knew less. The only thing I really need to respond to is your comment that bumping a class up to tier 1 isn't a good thing. The main thing is that Sorcerers shouldn't be penalized compared to Wizards, the most comparable class. Beyond that I think the real problem is the spells. If the most broken spells and effects are fixed I think I can bring all the tier 1 classes down to tier 2 or 3 without sacrificing any of their defining features. Bring everything else up to tier 3 and we are good; the caster classes will inevitably be more versatile, but as long as every class gets to shine and none of them break the game that is good. Also I'm not interested in Focused Specialization, that was a poorly thought out and overpowered variant that should not have been made, besides Sorcerers aren't limited in their school selection.

Tier one classes are easy to break the game with, which is what he's getting at. It's best to make classes at about third tier.

Drolyt
2010-01-06, 07:48 PM
Tier one classes are easy to break the game with, which is what he's getting at. It's best to make classes at about third tier.

Thanks for the reply. I agree with him, but none of the Tier 1 classes save the Druid have game breaking abilities of their own, its the spells that are broken. If the spells were brought into line with tier 3 then the Wizard could be balanced, but the Sorcerer would still be weaker than the Wizard. This is a preliminary step to try and make the two classes comparable while maintaining their respective advantages.

Temotei
2010-01-06, 08:02 PM
Thanks for the reply. I agree with him, but none of the Tier 1 classes save the Druid have game breaking abilities of their own, its the spells that are broken. If the spells were brought into line with tier 3 then the Wizard could be balanced, but the Sorcerer would still be weaker than the Wizard. This is a preliminary step to try and make the two classes comparable while maintaining their respective advantages.

I see. Then you plan on redoing the spells? Plenty of them could use a remake, but some are just plain good, not broken. Make sure you distinguish between the two.

Wish and miracle are going to be tough to do.

Milskidasith
2010-01-06, 08:02 PM
Balancing the spells is not possible unless you put in a massive amount of effort, more than would be requred to
invent a whole new system.

Drolyt
2010-01-06, 09:17 PM
Balancing the spells is not possible unless you put in a massive amount of effort, more than would be requred to
invent a whole new system.

I disagree. Most of the work's already done, the spells are there, there is sufficient commentary on them, and I can use these and other forums for input. The only really time consuming part of any game design is the playtesting, which Wizards certainly did not do enough of (or in the case of such things as DMM or the various polymorph abilities, apparently none at all). Also many spells, such as the rather large number of direct damage spells, are perfectly in line with a tier 3 class.

I see. Then you plan on redoing the spells? Plenty of them could use a remake, but some are just plain good, not broken. Make sure you distinguish between the two.

Wish and miracle are going to be tough to do.
I do plan on redoing some spells. I am considering doing a 3.5 revision as some others have done, right now I am just brainstorming. The main issue here (maybe I should have clarified) is spontaneous with limited spells known vs prepared with infinite spells known. WotC overestimated the power of spontaneous spellcasters and gave them ridiculously limited spells known, slower spell progression, and arbitrary and nonsensical restrictions on metamagic. I wanted to see how much I would have to give spontaneous casters to put them on par with prepared ones, and it seems I would have to give them an awful lot, assuming the opinions given here are correct (and I think they are, since my own thoughts lean that way). What I would really have to do is playtest this Sorcerer variant, I might be able to convince some DM on here to let me do that. If after what I've done Sorcerers still don't measure up, maybe spontaneous casting simply can't be balanced; too many more spells known and being able to switch out spells wouldn't be an advantage anymore.

FlamingKobold
2010-01-06, 09:42 PM
When you redo the spells, make sure it's either here (Not some other forum) or PM me a link. I'm quite interested in what you do.

On the class: It's certainly better than before, but when you edit the spell list, two things happen:

1. The Sorcerer, who traditionally just picks really powerful spells because they get so few, is screwed.
2. The wizard can make up for the above problem by getting a lot of spells.

Taking the spells down a level exaccerbates the gap between the two classes, and to keep with the theme of the class (fewer known, more per day) I think you should maybe get one more known and/or more per day. Just some thoughts.

Drolyt
2010-01-06, 09:56 PM
When you redo the spells, make sure it's either here (Not some other forum) or PM me a link. I'm quite interested in what you do.

On the class: It's certainly better than before, but when you edit the spell list, two things happen:

1. The Sorcerer, who traditionally just picks really powerful spells because they get so few, is screwed.
2. The wizard can make up for the above problem by getting a lot of spells.

Taking the spells down a level exaccerbates the gap between the two classes, and to keep with the theme of the class (fewer known, more per day) I think you should maybe get one more known and/or more per day. Just some thoughts.

I'm doing it here. My first task is going to be enchantment spells, and I'm going to try to revise the social skills at the same time, and then tie spells like charm and suggestion to diplomacy. Then I'm going to try and tackle Polymorph effects, and so on. Before that though I'm probably going to post my ideas on Dual-Classing, which will be like multi-classing but you take two classes at once. By the way, this is the only homebrew site I'm familiar with, and I only found it because of Oots (which I learned about on TvTropes), so if you know of any other good ones tell me. As for your comments, I agree. The Sorcerer stayed competitive by picking only the most broken spells. However this is just a first step, to see how people reacted to giving the Sorcerer more spells known. The responses are proof enough that at the very least they need more spells known, but I would need to playtest after all the spells are done to be sure. In fact I don't wonder if people have learned to underestimate the power of spontaneous casting since WotC screwed the Sorcerer so.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-06, 10:50 PM
Hm. Unless I missed something, I think this class needs a spells known and a spells/day table.

You said that the class is meant to increase versatility, so this seems rather counterproductive. In addition, I'm not too sure about giving the class extra spells known though Charisma, did you mean extra spells/day?

However, I do really like the idea of focusing on magical heritage. If you want a more trustworthy means of continuing this theme. I would suggest using the standard sorcerer spellcasting progression, and giving the class the wizard's proficiencies, and Echew Materials and a bonus heritage Feat and 1st level, and a bonus heritage feat every 5 levels thereafter.

On the other hand, if you want to focus on versatility, you could give the class Use Magic Device and replace the feats with additional spells known.

I made some new heritage feats a while back, I think they were all Anarchic heritage feats. If you're interested, I will happily post them.

Milskidasith
2010-01-06, 10:58 PM
I disagree. Most of the work's already done, the spells are there, there is sufficient commentary on them, and I can use these and other forums for input. The only really time consuming part of any game design is the playtesting, which Wizards certainly did not do enough of (or in the case of such things as DMM or the various polymorph abilities, apparently none at all). Also many spells, such as the rather large number of direct damage spells, are perfectly in line with a tier 3 class.

There are hundreds of spells. The problem is in the versatility; they let you do whatever you want in any situation. You'd have to trim out spells, nerf SoD, SoS, SoL, etc., nerf some direct damage spells, and nerf most all buffs to make it a T3 class. Mirror image alone puts them above pretty much all melee, combine with fly and celerity and they just cry. Fly alone is pretty powerful, actually.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-01-06, 11:39 PM
There are hundreds of spells. The problem is in the versatility; they let you do whatever you want in any situation. You'd have to trim out spells, nerf SoD, SoS, SoL, etc., nerf some direct damage spells, and nerf most all buffs to make it a T3 class. Mirror image alone puts them above pretty much all melee, combine with fly and celerity and they just cry. Fly alone is pretty powerful, actually.

To be precise, there are 2,855 spells in all of 3.5--I'm working on my own little spell revision project on and off at the moment. :smallwink: Trust me, unless you're willing to spend a significant chunk of time working on them (like, say, spending the majority of your summer vacation sitting at your laptop revising and testing them, for instance) I'd focus on fixing the classes or broad casting changes and not the individual spells.

Latronis
2010-01-06, 11:41 PM
To be precise, there are 2,855 spells in all of 3.5--I'm working on my own little spell revision project on and off at the moment. :smallwink: Trust me, unless you're willing to spend a significant chunk of time working on them (like, say, spending the majority of your summer vacation sitting at your laptop revising and testing them, for instance) I'd focus on fixing the classes or broad casting changes and not the individual spells.

To be fair there arn't more than 2000 broken spells though

Milskidasith
2010-01-06, 11:48 PM
To be fair there arn't more than 2000 broken spells though

If you include broken to mean "too weak" there are significantly more as well, but you can ignore the weak ones.

Latronis
2010-01-06, 11:50 PM
If you include broken to mean "too weak" there are significantly more as well, but you can ignore the weak ones.

Well ok but you need some 'fluff' spells too. When there's almost 3000 to choose from you can afford to ignore the too weak category, so curbing abuse of individual spells isn't as huge an endeavour as some would make out.

EDIT: Also it's a pity I didn't notice this early was i was working on something similiar. I woulda waited before putting mine up otherwise

Temotei
2010-01-06, 11:53 PM
I will fight for feather fall!

Latronis
2010-01-06, 11:54 PM
I wouldnt call it too weak

not in pre-flight levels anyway

Temotei
2010-01-06, 11:56 PM
I wouldnt call it too weak

not in pre-flight levels anyway

It's probably the most useful spell for my characters. I tend to jump off high things and nearly kill myself every time. :elan:

Well...for my non-caster characters.

Latronis
2010-01-06, 11:57 PM
It's probably the most useful spell for my characters. I tend to jump off high things and nearly kill myself every time. :elan:

Well...for my non-caster characters.

DnD needs moar death from above style feats

Temotei
2010-01-06, 11:59 PM
DnD needs moar death from above style feats

Meh. I just fall on people with my weapons pointed down. It usually works. Some falling damage is taken off and transferred to the person I land on, and my weapon deals extra. Houserules rock. :smallamused:

So...OP. Do you still plan on doing that whole spell list over again?

Latronis
2010-01-07, 12:11 AM
Meh. I just fall on people with my weapons pointed down. It usually works. Some falling damage is taken off and transferred to the person I land on, and my weapon deals extra. Houserules rock. :smallamused:

So...OP. Do you still plan on doing that whole spell list over again?

How much we talking here? Take Half Deal Half? applied before or after feather fall and slow fall type effects?

Bonus exp for a witty one liner afterwards? I think i stepped in cleric?

Drolyt
2010-01-07, 12:18 AM
To be precise, there are 2,855 spells in all of 3.5--I'm working on my own little spell revision project on and off at the moment. :smallwink: Trust me, unless you're willing to spend a significant chunk of time working on them (like, say, spending the majority of your summer vacation sitting at your laptop revising and testing them, for instance) I'd focus on fixing the classes or broad casting changes and not the individual spells.

All of 3.5??? Why in god's name would I care about ALL OF 3.5??!! Half of the spells in supplements are slight variations on what you could already do, and the other half were so poorly thought out as to make them useless (as in either too broken to be useful or too broken to not be used, which is the same as useless). I'm not sure how many spells are in the SRD, maybe five or six hundred, but I don't need to fix all of them and many require only minor changes.

So...OP. Do you still plan on doing that whole spell list over again?
I never did... just the broken stuff, and just the SRD. Mind you the biggest problem with the Wizard is probably Save or Lose/Die spells, those are easier to deal with then some of the other spellcasting problems (shapeshifting, divination, mind-control, teleportation, etc.). Clerics and Druids are another issue, but Druids should be fixed as soon as I get to Polymorph effects, at least partially. Clerics will, I think, be the hardest class to fix.

Latronis
2010-01-07, 12:23 AM
All of 3.5??? Why in god's name would I care about ALL OF 3.5??!! Half of the spells in supplements are slight variations on what you could already do, and the other half were so poorly thought out as to make them useless (as in either too broken to be useful or too broken to not be used, which is the same as useless). I'm not sure how many spells are in the SRD, maybe five or six hundred, but I don't need to fix all of them and many require only minor changes.

I never did... just the broken stuff, and just the SRD. Mind you the biggest problem with the Wizard is probably Save or Lose/Die spells, those are easier to deal with then some of the other spellcasting problems (shapeshifting, divination, mind-control, teleportation, etc.). Clerics and Druids are another issue, but Druids should be fixed as soon as I get to Polymorph effects, at least partially. Clerics will, I think, be the hardest class to fix.

Clerics arn't actually that hard to fix.

The biggest problem is allowing them to do someone else's job. Such as persitent DMM righteous might. Make such spells touch range instead of personal (so a fighter is a better base to buff off anyway) and\or have such things give up spellcasting (like the wizards transformation). Divine Metamagic isn't even that bad when they are truly limited by turn attempts so dissallow those zombie-b-gone sticks and much of the codzilla cleric is effectively neutered

Temotei
2010-01-07, 12:26 AM
Basically, the falling damage was reduced based on what I landed on. If the fighter below was wearing spiked armor...yeah. No.

If I landed on an awning and broke through it to kill a dog...well, let's assume I had jumped 150 feet. :smalltongue:

150 feet = 15d6 damage.
Awning reduction = -4d6
Dog reduction (DR) = -1d6
New total = 10d6 damage, and some random amount of damage to the dog.

I should make a real houserule with hard-cut rules. That would be fun. :smallbiggrin:

Drolyt
2010-01-07, 12:36 AM
Clerics arn't actually that hard to fix.

The biggest problem is allowing them to do someone else's job. Such as persitent DMM righteous might. Make such spells touch range instead of personal (so a fighter is a better base to buff off anyway) and\or have such things give up spellcasting (like the wizards transformation). Divine Metamagic isn't even that bad when they are truly limited by turn attempts so dissallow those zombie-b-gone sticks and much of the codzilla cleric is effectively neutered

My revision will assume no non core material, unless I specifically homebrew it, so no DMM. That is, you're free to include anything you like, but since I can only promise core is balanced (and then only when I'm done revising and testing everything) anything else should be treated like 3rd party material: use at your own risk. Thing is though, Clerics are already broken in core. Not as much no, I personally think that in core they are stuck behind Wizards and Druids in power and even Sorcerers are probably more broken, but even in core they outshine all non casters and can do anything they can do better.

Latronis
2010-01-07, 12:43 AM
My revision will assume no non core material, unless I specifically homebrew it, so no DMM. That is, you're free to include anything you like, but since I can only promise core is balanced (and then only when I'm done revising and testing everything) anything else should be treated like 3rd party material: use at your own risk. Thing is though, Clerics are already broken in core. Not as much no, I personally think that in core they are stuck behind Wizards and Druids in power and even Sorcerers are probably more broken, but even in core they outshine all non casters and can do anything they can do better.

Still even without such things the same problem remains. It's not so much that casters are powerful it's that they generally make non-casters pointless. Preventing them from fighting better than a fighter brings the party balance back into play. Druids probably a little more so imo since they can fill more roles than caster and fighter


I should make a real houserule with hard-cut rules. That would be fun.

I'd use em :P

Drolyt
2010-01-07, 12:49 AM
Still even without such things the same problem remains. It's not so much that casters are powerful it's that they generally make non-casters pointless. Preventing them from fighting better than a fighter brings the party balance back into play. Druids probably a little more so imo since they can fill more roles than caster and fighter


Right. I don't think Clerics should be able to fight that well, though there is the issue that if all they can do is heal and buff nobody wants to play them, even if PvE they become the most powerful class. Druids are more difficult. I like the idea of Druid as filling multi role, they can nuke, they can fight, they can heal, but that is hard to do without either making them suck (see Bard) or completely own (see Druid).

Latronis
2010-01-07, 01:05 AM
That's why i think it should be more modal. It already is to a point with the druid the wildshape allows them a remarkeable amount of options with little investment. Take the track feat, turn into a wolf you can function as a tracker well. Turning into a nastier critter for your level can pack a punch.. or swipe. Birds and small animals or plants can all do well for spying and scouting type roles. The problem is mainly natural spell letting them do all of that and stil function as a spellcaster for only the price of a single feat.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-01-07, 03:09 AM
All of 3.5??? Why in god's name would I care about ALL OF 3.5??!! Half of the spells in supplements are slight variations on what you could already do, and the other half were so poorly thought out as to make them useless (as in either too broken to be useful or too broken to not be used, which is the same as useless). I'm not sure how many spells are in the SRD, maybe five or six hundred, but I don't need to fix all of them and many require only minor changes.

Every single spell in 3.5 doesn't require fixing, but Milskidasith said there were "hundreds" and I wanted to be precise :smallwink: More seriously, you really need to take all of them into consideration when fixing some, because (A) changing or removing some of the broken spells can make the others more or less useful or powerful (for instance, if you were to reduce the bonus of mage armor for some strange reason you might want to reduce that of ectoplasmic armor and luminous armor as well) and (B) you can do a lot to help the weaker spells by folding a bunch of weaker spells into one.

Drolyt
2010-01-07, 11:10 AM
Every single spell in 3.5 doesn't require fixing, but Milskidasith said there were "hundreds" and I wanted to be precise :smallwink: More seriously, you really need to take all of them into consideration when fixing some, because (A) changing or removing some of the broken spells can make the others more or less useful or powerful (for instance, if you were to reduce the bonus of mage armor for some strange reason you might want to reduce that of ectoplasmic armor and luminous armor as well) and (B) you can do a lot to help the weaker spells by folding a bunch of weaker spells into one.

Actually that's a good point for me to keep in mind. WotC seems to have an obsession with splitting things up, which isn't really necessary. Condensing things might help the Sorcerer too. Again though, I can't really hope to tackle all the non core stuff, so how my changes might affect that will be unpredictable. By the way, my attempt at fixing diplomacy/intimidate/charm/suggestion/dominate should probably/maybe/hopefully be up later today.

Drolyt
2010-01-18, 12:08 PM
I've made a (probably/hopefully) last edit that hopefully greatly simplified the use of this variant. I'm currently working on my Dual-Classing system and will probably experiment more with the various classes before moving on to fixing the spell system as promised (which appears to me a truly daunting task).