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douglas
2010-01-09, 09:38 PM
For those who don't like spending a whole round on nothing just to start being effective again in a long combat and aren't playing Crusaders...

Greater Adaptive Style
Prerequisites: Adaptive Style, ability to use maneuvers of 5th level or higher
Benefits: Changing (and refreshing) your readied maneuvers with Adaptive Style now takes a move action instead of a full round action. In addition, if you are a multiclass martial adept you may use maneuvers readied from one class to ready maneuvers known from another class; effectively you combine your maneuvers known lists from all classes into one list. A maneuver's initiator level is determined by the class it is readied for, and you cannot ready a maneuver for a particular class if your initiator level with that class is too low for the maneuver. You still cannot ready the same maneuver multiple times, even for different classes.
Special: Any maneuver you used in the previous round cannot be used in the same round after using Greater Adaptive Style. Any maneuver you used in the same round before using Greater Adaptive Style cannot be used in the next round.

This feat is intended for my character is a gestalt campaign, who is a Swordsage/Master of Nine//Warblade, and typically finds himself using Adaptive Style every four to six rounds in combats that last quite a bit longer.

I don't think the move action refresh is really unbalanced, considering the Crusader and Warblade recovery methods, and my DM has already said he's ok with that part. He's not entirely sure about the combining maneuvers known bit, though, so I'm here to ask for unbiased input.

DracoDei
2010-01-09, 09:58 PM
Just off the top of my head:
If the feat doesn't work out (and maybe even if it would), maybe you could see if he would let you replace Master of Nine with my "True Master of Nine" (see my extended signature), it gives better recovery and a combined maneuver pool as of 2nd level in it... not sure how "Jealous Path would work...

((If you do this, I would appreciate feedback on how the PrC worked out))

jiriku
2010-01-09, 10:25 PM
Rapid refreshing sounds great to me. Readying maneuvers from one class in the slots of another...not so much. Combining maneuver lists lets you do things like refresh swordsage-only maneuvers with a swift action by readying them in your warblade slots, or guarantee the immediate availability of a crusader-only maneuver by readying it in a swordsage or warblade slot.

I can't imagine any multi-class martial adept who wouldn't take this feat as soon as he qualified for it, which means it's probably too powerful.

douglas
2010-01-09, 10:45 PM
Rapid refreshing sounds great to me. Readying maneuvers from one class in the slots of another...not so much. Combining maneuver lists lets you do things like refresh swordsage-only maneuvers with a swift action by readying them in your warblade slots, or guarantee the immediate availability of a crusader-only maneuver by readying it in a swordsage or warblade slot.
I fail to see how this is especially game breaking. First, Setting Sun, Desert Wind, and Shadow Hand are not more powerful than Iron Heart or Devoted Spirit. If applying Crusader recovery to Devoted Spirit or Warblade recovery to Iron Heart is balanced, then applying either of those recovery methods to maneuvers from other disciplines should also be balanced. Second, if you want to use that ability with any high level maneuvers you will have to boost your initiator level in both classes. A Warblade 2/Swordsage 10 with this feat would have 6th level Swordsage maneuvers but would only be able to ready up to 4th level maneuvers with his Warblade slots.


I can't imagine any multi-class martial adept who wouldn't take this feat as soon as he qualified for it, which means it's probably too powerful.
I can. It does not change the maximum level of maneuver that can be readied for any given class. A multiclass character who could ready level X maneuvers for Y class and level Z maneuvers for W class can, with this feat... ready level X maneuvers for Y class and level Z maneuvers for W class. Yay. Sure, most Swordsages will want it for the reduced recovery time, but that says more about how crappy the Swordsage recovery mechanic is than about how great this feat is. The ability to combine maneuvers known lists is a nice little bonus, but I really don't see how it could be considered overpowered. It does not change the maximum level of maneuver you can apply any given recovery method to. It does not even change the number of high level maneuvers you can ready, as you will practically always have, for free from your class, enough maneuvers readied to cover your top 2 or more levels of maneuvers in the class that gives them. It gives slightly more flexibility, but that's all.

jiriku
2010-01-09, 11:06 PM
It is not game-breaking or overpowered. It is simply better than other feats available at that level with a 1-feat prerequisite.

You asked for unbiased input, but now it seems more like you wanted someone to agree with you, so I'll hold my peace.

douglas
2010-01-09, 11:12 PM
It is not game-breaking or overpowered. It is simply better than other feats available at that level with a 1-feat prerequisite.
Isn't that the definition of "overpowered"?


You asked for unbiased input, but now it seems more like you wanted someone to agree with you, so I'll hold my peace.
The fact that I disagree with your reasons and provided a counterargument does not mean that I do not want your input. If you can address the points I raised and give reasons why this feat actually is unduly powerful, I will be happy to change it.

DaTedinator
2010-01-09, 11:34 PM
I agree with jiriku. The refreshing seems a'ight, but cross-class maneuvers... yes, the maneuvers are balanced against other maneuvers of the same level, but there's the balancing factor of not allowing any one class access to all the different disciplines. This would be like making a feat allowing a multiclass Wizard/Archivist to prepare spells in the other class's slots. Better, even, since you can change it all with a move action.

douglas
2010-01-09, 11:56 PM
I agree with jiriku. The refreshing seems a'ight, but cross-class maneuvers... yes, the maneuvers are balanced against other maneuvers of the same level, but there's the balancing factor of not allowing any one class access to all the different disciplines.
Well yes, but that's in allowing a character with that class access to the discipline at all. There's a world of difference between "gain access to a whole new set of abilities you couldn't touch before" and "spend resources you already have on abilities you already have, just that weren't quite linked to each other before." This does not give a character any access at all to maneuvers he did not already have access to.


This would be like making a feat allowing a multiclass Wizard/Archivist to prepare spells in the other class's slots. Better, even, since you can change it all with a move action.
I don't see how this would be overpowered either except in combination with other abilities that are limited to one or the other of divine and arcane casting, and Southern Magician (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Southern_Magician) or Geomancer gets around that limitation without homebrew at all. Except for the arcane/divine distinction, such a feat would neither allow that character to cast any spell he could not cast before nor improve the effectiveness of the spells he casts, with the possible exception of increasing caster level and there are plenty of ways to do that already.

I'm really rather surprised at the reaction to what I threw in as something that would primarily be flavorful, ease bookkeeping a little bit, and give me extra flexibility on (usually) 1 to 3 of my 14 maneuvers readied.

Stycotl
2010-01-11, 02:03 AM
i have thought more about the feat, douglas, and i don't think that it is overpowered. i don't see any inherent problem with allowing a juggling of maneuvers from different classes.

however, one of the things that was bothering me that i couldn't put my finger on until today, was that it doesn't fit in my mind.

adaptive style helps recover maneuvers, for everyone, single class and multiclass initiators alike.

greater adaptive style, as it stands right now, helps both of them even more, but then gives a boost over and above everything else to multiclass initiators, but nothing to the singles class.

further, it doesn't seem related, or that it would fit.

in my mind, this should be two feats.

however, since i am trying to streamline the feats anyway, i would be more than happy to make the adaptive style feat give something to higher BAB initiators; this would make so that you don't need two more feats to get the same effect.

maybe, at BAB +1 through +10, it is a full round act to change maneuvers. at BAB +11 through +15, it is a standard act, and at BAB +16 through +20, it is a move act.

or +1 through +11 full round act; +11 through +20, move act. i like the progression of the other one, but since this is in no way overpowered, then it seems fine to me.

then, create an entirely new feat for multiclass initiators that bumps their initiator level by two, though no higher than their hit dice, and allows them to cross-ready maneuvers.

or something like that. it'd have to have something beyond just the cross-readying as far as i can see, because by itself, i can't yet see that it is worth a feat. though my judgment on that might change if i find any suspicious combos that i hadn't thought of.

douglas
2010-01-11, 09:37 AM
All right, I think I should explain my reasoning for putting in the cross-readying thing. I don't usually do homebrew much, and seeing how this thread developed makes me think I should include in the initial post an explanation of both why I think my creation is balanced and why I included everything it has, rather than what I did here of just presenting the feat by itself without much comment and then arguing about points I had already thought of.

The main reason I wanted a homebrew feat was to be able to recover maneuvers and still attack in the same round. Single class Crusaders and Warblades can already do this, why not Swordsages and multiclass characters? Still, it should come with a significant action cost, just not so severe as to prevent attacking. Thus, a move action. This is still more costly than both Crusader and Warblade recovery, as it should be for characters who have more maneuvers readied than those classes, but not so much so as to prevent attacking that round. The obvious base is Adaptive Style, which is already the premier choice for Swordsage and multiclass recovery time improvement, thus Greater Adaptive Style.

So, that's the core of the feat. I dislike as a general principle, however, feats that do nothing but improve a previous feat in one extremely simple mechanical way. There should be some extra benefit, something special and unique in nature, to the improvement feat as well. The base I already had was already significantly powerful on its own, though, so I needed something minor, something that does not overtly increase power. Well, Adaptive Style lets you adapt your style, customizing your maneuvers prepared for your current foe, and the recovery effect is already of interest primarily to Swordsage and multiclass characters, so what better than customizing your readied maneuvers even more for those characters? If the set of maneuvers best suited for your current foe or choice of tactics comes predominantly from one class, to the extent that you don't have enough maneuvers readied from that class to pick them all, why not pull some slots over from the other class? Let your second class contribute rather than being relatively dead weight. You still have all the same tricks, and the same number of them ready at once, just more flexibility in adapting your selection to the situation.


i have thought more about the feat, douglas, and i don't think that it is overpowered. i don't see any inherent problem with allowing a juggling of maneuvers from different classes.

however, one of the things that was bothering me that i couldn't put my finger on until today, was that it doesn't fit in my mind.

adaptive style helps recover maneuvers, for everyone, single class and multiclass initiators alike.
Actually, it doesn't really. Crusader and Warblade recovery mechanisms are already superior to Adaptive Style. Single class characters of those classes do not take Adaptive Style for the recovery time; if they take it at all, they take it solely for the ability to customize maneuvers readied during combat. Swordsages take it because it is strictly superior to their normal recovery mechanism, and multiclass characters take it because it recovers maneuvers for all classes simultaneously, giving a united multiclass recovery mechanic. This is why I have never, in our current game, used the Warblade recovery technique even though I do have it.


greater adaptive style, as it stands right now, helps both of them even more, but then gives a boost over and above everything else to multiclass initiators, but nothing to the singles class.

further, it doesn't seem related, or that it would fit.
I hope my explanation above of why I put that benefit in clears up why I think it is related and does fit.


however, since i am trying to streamline the feats anyway, i would be more than happy to make the adaptive style feat give something to higher BAB initiators; this would make so that you don't need two more feats to get the same effect.

maybe, at BAB +1 through +10, it is a full round act to change maneuvers. at BAB +11 through +15, it is a standard act, and at BAB +16 through +20, it is a move act.

or +1 through +11 full round act; +11 through +20, move act. i like the progression of the other one, but since this is in no way overpowered, then it seems fine to me.
Basing it on BAB strikes me as the wrong way to go - single class Swordsages, the only class that would really get significant use out of this, have mere medium BAB. If you go this route, which I personally would say you shouldn't (Adaptive Style as written already gets more powerful at higher levels because it scales with maneuvers known and readied), I'd base it on Initiator Level. Also, dropping it to a standard action is a vastly smaller improvement than dropping it to a move action - costing a standard action still prevents attacking that round.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-01-11, 11:45 AM
I'm going to take a different stance from the others here, and say that the maneuver is indeed overpowered. Here's my reasoning:

Maneuvers weren't meant to be spammed every round. That's why no class has the ability to use the same maneuver twice in a row: the Crusader relies on random chance, the Warblade must make a normal attack (not a martial strike), and the Swordsage has his 1 round of downtime.

If every round I can make a Mountain Tombstone Strike, a Strike of Preternatural Clarity, or so forth, I can be a practically invincible combatant. Heck...if I can get Iron Heart Surge, the 9th level Devoted Spirit maneuver, and the save-boosters from Diamond Mind, I'll be practically invulnerable.

That's just a little to good from my perspective. The multiple maneuver readying thing is just more power tacked on; if anything, I'd make it its own feat.

In conclusion, Adaptive Style is already a strong enough feat that most Martial Adepts take it when given the chance. A feat that potent really doesn't need an improvement, and such an improvement will, in my opinion, just lead to spamming the same maneuvers even sooner, which I don't think leads to as exciting or varied an encounter.

douglas
2010-01-11, 12:38 PM
Are you objecting to using a maneuver every round, or using the same maneuver(s) every round? If the latter, it's easy enough to fix by adding a 1 round prohibition on recently used maneuvers. If I made such a change, would your opinion change?

I agree Adaptive Style is spectacularly good for Swordsages, to the point where I've seen jokes about how Swordsages have a class feature that replaces their level 1 feat with Adaptive Style, but in my experience most Crusaders and Warblades actually don't bother. Warblades spend a swift action and attack instead, and Crusaders just shrug and spend the rest of their Short List Full of Awesome while waiting 3 rounds (what Crusader doesn't take Extra Granted Maneuver?) for the automatic reset.

DracoDei
2010-01-11, 12:51 PM
Almost certainly the latter... otherwise he would have probably expressed a dislike for Crusaders. A good idea... MIGHT have to be TWO rounds... but that should be a step in the right direction...

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-01-11, 12:54 PM
Are you objecting to using a maneuver every round, or using the same maneuver(s) every round? If the latter, it's easy enough to fix by adding a 1 round prohibition on recently used maneuvers.

Definitely the latter. A maneuver every round is fine, as that's what most classes will do anyway (to avoid the 1-round of little to no action). It's when it starts being the same 8th or 9th level maneuver every round that things start to go crazy.

douglas
2010-01-11, 12:57 PM
Ok, I added that restriction under the new "Special" section. How does this change your assessment of it?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-01-11, 10:40 PM
I'd still suggest that the latter portion (the preparing maneuvers bit) be turned into a separate feat. But it is much better now.

Stycotl
2010-01-13, 12:29 PM
So, that's the core of the feat. I dislike as a general principle, however, feats that do nothing but improve a previous feat in one extremely simple mechanical way. There should be some extra benefit, something special and unique in nature, to the improvement feat as well.

agreed. i am moving away from feats that grant only bonuses, and trying to make feats that include new abilities; things that give players more options than just, "i use the +2 bonus from this feat."


Actually, it doesn't really.

that's actually what i meant; recovery was the wrong word.


Crusader and Warblade recovery mechanisms are already superior to Adaptive Style. Single class characters of those classes do not take Adaptive Style for the recovery time; if they take it at all, they take it solely for the ability to customize maneuvers readied during combat. Swordsages take it because it is strictly superior to their normal recovery mechanism, and multiclass characters take it because it recovers maneuvers for all classes simultaneously, giving a united multiclass recovery mechanic.

maybe i need to houserule that the swordsage's full-round recovery works for all expended maneuvers. it's still a full-round, but now it does all of them, and it is balanced against the swordsage's larger pool of maneuvers.


Basing it on BAB strikes me as the wrong way to go

initiator level is fine, and does make more sense. BAB was just the suggestion off of the top of my head. and now that i think about it, my suggestion of increasing initiator level doesn't really fit with the feat either.


Also, dropping it to a standard action is a vastly smaller improvement than dropping it to a move action - costing a standard action still prevents attacking that round.

i don't so much like the idea of it going from full round to move act. it makes more sense to me to go full round > standard > move > swift, or something like that, and basing it off of initiator level is the best method, especially when taking into account high level dips into an initiator class.

in the end, i still think that the maneuver list combination would be better as a separate feat––but that allows you the chance to dream up something else to go with it, so it actually gives you even more potential power.

i will houserule adaptive style to have a progressive increase in power, and you can homebrew a feat that allows you to mix maneuvers from different classes, and hopefully add in another effect, though i am currently at a loss as to what.

Adaptive Style

With just a short period of meditation, you can change your maneuvers and tactics to meet the threat you currently face.
Prerequisites: Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade, or other martial initiator class level 1st.
Benefit: You can change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a full-round action. If you are a crusader, your current granted maneuvers are lost and you gain new granted maneuvers as if you had just readied your maneuvers for the day. At initiator level 5, it no longer takes a full-round action to change your readied maneuvers, but a standard action; at initiator level 10, it takes a move act; and at initiator level 15, it takes a swift act.
Normal: You can change maneuvers only by spending 5 minutes to do so.

how's that sound?

douglas
2010-01-13, 01:46 PM
Adaptive Style

With just a short period of meditation, you can change your maneuvers and tactics to meet the threat you currently face.
Prerequisites: Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade, or other martial initiator class level 1st.
Benefit: You can change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a full-round action. If you are a crusader, your current granted maneuvers are lost and you gain new granted maneuvers as if you had just readied your maneuvers for the day. At initiator level 5, it no longer takes a full-round action to change your readied maneuvers, but a standard action; at initiator level 10, it takes a move act; and at initiator level 15, it takes a swift act.
Normal: You can change maneuvers only by spending 5 minutes to do so.

how's that sound?
Well, um, ok. Better add the special restriction on recent reuse, though, and say that a level 15+ initiator can spend a move action instead of a swift on it if he wants to. Also, bumping the thresholds to 6, 11, and 16 would make for a more even distribution.

Stycotl
2010-01-14, 12:16 PM
Well, um, ok.

are there any other issues with it? i realize that this makes you go back to the drawing board, but it makes things seem a little less undone to me, tackles one more feat that i would eventually have to tier anyway (adaptive style), and allows you to think up another effect to add to your combination feat, one that hopefully is made specifically to boost multiclass initiators.


Better add the special restriction on recent reuse, though, and say that a level 15+ initiator can spend a move action instead of a swift on it if he wants to.

forgot about the stipulations, and the ability to use as a swift or move act is a good idea.


Also, bumping the thresholds to 6, 11, and 16 would make for a more even distribution.

that seems reasonable.

i think i'm gonna houserule that swordsages refresh all of their maneuvers with their full round act. sefu was the only other swordsage in play, but still, it'll fix future problems should anyone else need it; and come to think of it, i have a few NPCs that have swordsage levels, so yippee!

Adaptive Style

With just a short period of meditation, you can change your maneuvers and tactics to meet the threat you currently face.
Prerequisites: Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade, or other martial initiator class level 1st.
Benefit: You can change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a full-round action. If you are a crusader, your current granted maneuvers are lost and you gain new granted maneuvers as if you had just readied your maneuvers for the day. At initiator level 6, it no longer takes a full-round action to change your readied maneuvers, but a standard action; at initiator level 11, it takes a move act, though you can still use a standard act if you wish; and at initiator level 16, it takes a swift act, though you can still use a move or standard act if you wish.
Special: You cannot use a maneuver readied with this feat sooner than two rounds after it was last used (you cannot use a maneuver, then change your maneuvers with this feat, and use the same maneuver again on the next round or sooner).
Normal: You can change maneuvers only by spending 5 minutes to do so.