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The Glyphstone
2010-01-11, 01:58 PM
Quickfire
Conjuration (Creation)[Fire][Evil]
Level: Sorc/Wiz 9
Components: V,S, M
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft. +5ft/2 levels)
Effect: Patch of self-replicating magical fire (see text)
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Reflex half (see text)
Spell Resistance: See text

The work of researching new spells and sources of arcane power is a dangerous path, wrought with peril and frequently a matter of trial and error. Sometimes those errors are painful, occasionally they can be fatal. Once in a great while, they can have lasting effects that cause damage far beyond the expiration of their originating mage. And then there is the rare, and indescribably deadly spell known only as 'quickfire'. Only truly evil mages dare to conjure it, and only as a last resort or desperation move, for once invoked, the hellfire called forth takes on a sadistic will of its own and begins to spread out its own accord, as dangerous to its caster as anyone or anything else nearby.

A quickfire conflagration starts as a single 5ft. square of roaring infernal flames, conjured at a point of the caster's choosing. Each round thereafter, the flames spread to every adjacent square not already enveloped in quickfire. Should a solid, inflammable barrier block the fire's expansion, it will suffer damage as if it had been engulfed as the flames creep upward to cover it. New patches spawned in this manner will likewise spread to unaffected squares at the beginning of each round, creating an unstoppable tide of flame.

Any creature or object that finds itself in a square covered by quickfire at the start of its turn, or stands to impede a quickfire's spread, suffers 1d8 hellfire damage per caster level (max 40d8). A Reflex save may be attempted to halve the damage taken, but an additional save must be made each round the creature remains in quickfire. This is not considered fire damage, and so ignores any resistance or immunity to fire, and deals full damage to objects before applying hardness.

Additionally, a quickfire spread is exceptionally difficult to stop via magical means. It has no special resistance against dispelling, but each 5ft. square of quickfire is treated as a separate effect for the purposes of being targeted with dispels. This means that targeted dispels are only effective immediately after it has been conjured, and area dispels prove to be temporary respites at best unless invoked early in its spread. Once the spell's duration has elapsed, all patches of quickfire conjured by the spell extinguish themselves, though anything set on fire in the meantime continues to burn as if ignited non-magically.

Material Component: A handful of spiderwebs.[/QUOTE]

The original 1.0 version of the spell, preserved for comparison.

Quickfire
Conjuration (Creation)[Fire]
Level: Sorc/Wiz 9
Components: V,S, M, XP
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft. +5ft/2 levels)
Effect: Patch of self-replicating magical fire (see text)
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Reflex half (see text)
Spell Resistance: See text

The work of researching new spells and sources of arcane power is a dangerous path, wrought with peril and frequently a matter of trial and error. Sometimes those errors are painful, occasionally they can be fatal. Once in a great while, they can have lasting effects that cause damage far beyond the expiration of their originating mage. And then there is the rare and indescribably deadly spell known only as 'quickfire'.

A quickfire conflagration starts as a single 5ft. square of roaring flames, conjured at a point of the caster's choosing. Each round thereafter, the flames spread to every adjacent square not already enveloped in quickfire. Should a solid, inflammable barrier block the fire's expansion, it will suffer damage as if it had been engulfed as the flames creep upward to cover it. New patches spawned in this manner will likewise spread to unaffected squares at the beginning of each round, creating an unstoppable tide of flame.

Any creature or object that finds itself in a square covered by quickfire at the start of its turn, or stands to impede a quickfire's spread, suffers 1d6 fire damage per caster level (max 40d6). A Reflex save may be attempted to halve the damage taken, but an additional save must be made each round the creature remains in quickfire. Resistance or immunity to fire cannot prevent damage from quickfire, nor may objects automatically halve damage or apply hardness. Creatures with sufficient spell resistance or spell immunity take half damage from the effect after saves, but have no further protection. Only creatures with the [Fire] subtype are immune to quickfire's flames.

Additionally, a quickfire spread is exceptionally difficult to stop via magical means. It has no special resistance against dispelling, but each 5ft. square of quickfire is treated as a separate effect for the purposes of being targeted with dispels. This means that targeted dispels are only effective immediately after it has been conjured, and area dispels prove to be temporary respites at best unless invoked early in its spread.

Once the spell's duration has elapsed, all patches of quickfire conjured by the spell extinguish themselves, though anything set on fire in the meantime continues to burn as if ignited non-magically.

Material Component: A handful of spiderwebs.
XP Cost: 500 XP.

DracoDei
2010-01-11, 02:06 PM
I might even halve the damage... but that is very cool. Against other spellcasters of equivalent level about all it is good for is drawing a dispel... but against anything else it is very interesting as battle-field control...

Catch
2010-01-11, 02:09 PM
This is a bit powerful for a 9th level spell, and the fluff seems like it would fit better with a low-level Epic spell. At the end of the spell's duration, a 20th level caster would have a 1000 ft-radius effect of 20d6 fire damage that ignores fire resistance/immunity and object hardness - certainly enough to raze a city. No single 9th level spell I know has that kind of output, unless you're chain-gating Solars or something equally questionable.

It's a great concept, but might fit better in Epic.

Flickerdart
2010-01-11, 02:14 PM
This is not, I would say, powerful enough for a 9th level spell. Compared to stuff like Mindrape or Genesis? No sir. I would perhaps reduce the duration to rounds/level, definitely eliminate the XP penalty (perhaps replace it with a GP cost if you keep it at minutes/level) and drop it a few spell levels. Also? Permanency this thing for great justice suffering.

Way you have it, this eventually spreads 2,000 feet, which is only a 610m width for the square. That's only about 6 football fields. I wouldn't pay 500 of my hard-earned XP to burn down something that size. With round/level, that gets to 200 feet square, which is reasonable for a 8th-level or so spell with no additional costs, perhaps with a 20d6 cap. I guess you could make that a Lesser Quickfire or something, since the scope of the spell seems very important for it.

Also, I would like to see a Greater Quickfire epic spell, simply cause this sort of thing demands more dakka.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-01-11, 02:16 PM
This is a bit powerful for a 9th level spell, and the fluff seems like it would fit better with a low-level Epic spell. At the end of the spell's duration, a 20th level caster would have a 1000 ft-radius effect of 20d6 fire damage that ignores fire resistance/immunity and object hardness - certainly enough to raze a city. No single 9th level spell I know has that kind of output, unless you're chain-gating Solars or something equally questionable.

It's a great concept, but might fit better in Epic.

Not only would it raze a city, but it would carve down about 85 feet into solid stone (at the initial point of casting). If you were to use, for example, Sudden Maximize and Sudden Extend on it, you'd have a 260ft deep crater in the area...on SOLID STONE.

That's quite a lot of damage...

Surgo
2010-01-11, 02:22 PM
You can just raze a city with Storm of Vengeance anyway. This spell is crap when it comes to doing anything in a battlefield, and it's totally inferior to Storm of Vengeance for city-razing as the former doesn't cost you anything to cast except the spell slot.

Other than that, why is this spell five paragraphs long? There aren't enough rules here to justify more than a paragraph. Why would anyone actually prepare this spell? If it's meant solely for city-razing or carving out a cavern or something that I can understand, but it has essentially zero combat usefulness.

The Glyphstone
2010-01-11, 02:33 PM
Pretty much. It's meant to be a doomsday-type spell, the sort of thing that the BBEG sets off to raze his stronghold. It spreads too slow to really threaten anything mobile. I had originally given it a 10min/level or hours/level duration, but that would have pushed it over some of the low-DC epic spells in terms of damage spread.

As for Epic vs. 9th level, I looked at two comparisons - the Epic spell Rain of Fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/rainOfFire.htm), one of the lowest-DC premade Epic spells, and the infamous Book of Moderate Dimness's Apocalypse From The Sky.
-Rain of Fire does 1/round for 20 hours in a 2-mile radius, 10x the radius of a 20th level Quickfire and a total of 36,000 fire damage with a separate save for each point to anything in the zone. Comparatively, a object sitting on the origin point of a CL20th Quickfire would suffer a maximum of 24,000 effective damage, decreasing proportionately for the distance it sat from the origin point. Neither one is any real threat to creatures (Fire Resistance 1 negates RoF, a 5ft. movement speed negates Quickfire). Quickfire can melt through stone while RoF can't, but it also takes longer.
-Apocalypse From The Sky, the infamous 9th level spell with an artifact for a material component, deals 10d6 damage of fire, acid, or sonic type over a radius of as much as 200 miles for a 20th level caster. Less individual damage, but acid/sonic can harm stuff immune to fire, and the radius is vastly larger.

There's a burned cookie involved for spotting the material component reference (it's a bit obscure, honestly).


5 replies that fast...3 think it's not powerful enough, 2 think it's too powerful. Interesting.

deuxhero
2010-01-11, 02:51 PM
Should be in evocation.

Norr
2010-01-11, 02:57 PM
I think I know what you mean with the spiderwebs. I once put a lighter to an old web and it disappeared in about half a second.

Also, great spell for razing fortresses and the like, as long as it goes undetected for long enough.

Also: Trapped Labyrinth
Objective: Outrun the Lava Flow Quick Fire while trying to find a way out.

Drolyt
2010-01-11, 03:08 PM
I think the spell is fine as it is, but it doesn't need an XP cost. It's simply not that powerful, though I think 9th level is fine. Maybe a longer duration would be fine, after 20 minutes the radius would be (correct my math if it is wrong) 5x10 (10 rounds per minute)x20 (20 minutes)= 1000 ft. That's less than a mile. Also should be in Evocation, all these damage spells need to leave Conjuration.

The Glyphstone
2010-01-11, 03:47 PM
I think I know what you mean with the spiderwebs. I once put a lighter to an old web and it disappeared in about half a second.
.

Good guess, but nope. More obscure.

Current maximum spread: 5ft. x 10 rounds/minute = 50ft./minute x 20min = 1000ft radius, less than 1/5 mile. Good to liquefy a fortress or something.
Maximum spread at 10min/level: 10,000ft radius., just under 2 miles. That's city-razing territory.

I can knock off the XP cost, it wasn't essential. As for the school, Conjuration's had damaging spells even in core - Acid Fog, Incendiary Cloud, and such - Evocation gets the instantaneous damage. Conjuration only stopped being appropriate for damage when people got sick of the No-SR Orbs of Totally Non-Magical Force/Fire/Acid/Sound/Cold Energy.

Drolyt
2010-01-11, 04:16 PM
Good guess, but nope. More obscure.

Current maximum spread: 5ft. x 10 rounds/minute = 50ft./minute x 20min = 1000ft radius, less than 1/5 mile. Good to liquefy a fortress or something.
Maximum spread at 10min/level: 10,000ft radius., just under 2 miles. That's city-razing territory.

I can knock off the XP cost, it wasn't essential. As for the school, Conjuration's had damaging spells even in core - Acid Fog, Incendiary Cloud, and such - Evocation gets the instantaneous damage. Conjuration only stopped being appropriate for damage when people got sick of the No-SR Orbs of Totally Non-Magical Force/Fire/Acid/Sound/Cold Energy.

No, it was never appropriate for damage. As it is there is no reason not to drop Evocation as a specialist Wizard, since between Conjuration and Shadow Evocation you haven't lost anything. From a flavor standpoint you can argue anything as Conjuration, but when it makes sense as another school it shouldn't go there. Besides that pure damage spells probably shouldn't allow SR. Without metamagic reducers (which also shouldn't be allowed) you really can't do more damage than a melee combatant anyway, so why should enemies be allowed a special defense against you? As a side note, healing spells shouldn't be conjuration either.

DragoonWraith
2010-01-11, 04:20 PM
Droylt, you are right, but really it makes no sense to put this spell in Evocation if all the other damaging Conjurations are still Conjurations. Anyone who house-rules those as Evocation would house-rule this as Evocation as well, and anyone who doesn't would find this odd under Evocation, I think.

Drolyt
2010-01-11, 04:29 PM
Droylt, you are right, but really it makes no sense to put this spell in Evocation if all the other damaging Conjurations are still Conjurations. Anyone who house-rules those as Evocation would house-rule this as Evocation as well, and anyone who doesn't would find this odd under Evocation, I think.

Fair enough. As it is there is precedent for the spell being in conjuration, especially since it has a duration, but both from a game balance and a fluff perspective these types of spells should not be.

Norr
2010-01-11, 06:39 PM
Good guess, but nope. More obscure.

"You have to burn the web."

Don't tell me its a zelda reference. :smallamused:

Drolyt
2010-01-11, 06:51 PM
There was a VGCats (I think it was VGCats) of Link burning the webs in the Great Deku Tree and setting the whole damn forest on fire.

Catch
2010-01-11, 06:53 PM
Current maximum spread: 5ft. x 10 rounds/minute = 50ft./minute x 20min = 1000ft radius, less than 1/5 mile. Good to liquefy a fortress or something.

Nitpick: The fire spreads in all directions, no? That's a 1000-ft radius, but a 2000-ft diameter, so it covers third of a mile.

The Glyphstone
2010-01-12, 12:37 AM
^that's correct, it would be a total of 2000ft. spread. I was just calculating the radius.


"You have to burn the web."

Don't tell me its a zelda reference. :smallamused:

Even more obscure. It's a reference to the game that inspired the spell, though.
Hint:Specifically, the game's publisher.

Drolyt
2010-01-12, 08:02 AM
^that's correct, it would be a total of 2000ft. spread. I was just calculating the radius.



Even more obscure. It's a reference to the game that inspired the spell, though.
Hint:Specifically, the game's publisher.

Game? I thought it referred to this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quickfire)

Zom B
2010-01-12, 08:14 AM
Interesting Trivia: From the main forum page, this thread is titled "Some Men Just Want To Watch..."

I was wondering just what kind of creation you were making here.

The sexy kind.[/zapbrannigan]

Drolyt
2010-01-12, 08:47 AM
Interesting Trivia: From the main forum page, this thread is titled "Some Men Just Want To Watch..."

I was wondering just what kind of creation you were making here.

The sexy kind.[/zapbrannigan]

We have plenty of spells for that, be creative.

GoC
2010-01-12, 09:10 AM
Resistance or immunity to fire cannot prevent damage from quickfire, nor may objects automatically halve damage or apply hardness.
I don't like this. If you want to prevent immunity make it do half untyped damage. Because fire so hot that fire immunity doesn't work has always been a silly idea.

Drolyt
2010-01-12, 09:14 AM
I don't like this. If you want to prevent immunity make it do half untyped damage. Because fire so hot that fire immunity doesn't work has always been a silly idea.

Rather, it would make sense if there was some explanation (it's not real fire or it's hellfire or something). Half untyped damage would work too, if there was some explanation.

The Glyphstone
2010-01-12, 11:11 AM
Now that you've pointed that out, I don't actually like it either. "It's fire, BUT HOTTER" always did sort of irk me, and now I'm annoyed that I just threw it in there without even thinking. Half untyped could work, but I would need an explanation...maybe the 'origin square' is a gate into the densest portions of the Elemental Plane of Fire, the sort of places where fire is so thick you can walk on it and so it can't help but spill out?

@Droylt: Cool link, and I'll bet that the spell's was originally inspired by that practice. Unfortunately, I'd never heard of it, and the spiderweb material component reference is to something/someone else.

Drolyt
2010-01-12, 11:54 AM
Why not just make it Hellfire? Sure that would make the spell evil, but I can't imagine any good uses for a spell that destroys cities. Also there is precedent for Hellfire type effects spreading out. Edit: Also why don't you go ahead and make it 10 min./level? It's not that overpowered. Although it is an insta kill if you get trapped...

The Glyphstone
2010-01-12, 12:34 PM
Sure, why not? Add some fluff that the fire seems to take on a sadistic, semi-sentient will of its own, throw the [Evil] tag on it (it was meant to be a doomsday spell anyway, only Evil people are likely to need it), make it Hellfire damage, and take away the bit about ignoring hardness.

With a 10min/level duration, would it be overpowered to increase the damage to 2d6/level, capped at 40d6 like Disintegrate? It'd compensate for the loss of hardness-ignoring to let it stay as a fast and voracious terrain-annihilator.

Drolyt
2010-01-12, 12:36 PM
Sure, why not? Add some fluff that the fire seems to take on a sadistic, semi-sentient will of its own, throw the [Evil] tag on it (it was meant to be a doomsday spell anyway, only Evil people are likely to need it), make it Hellfire damage, and take away the bit about ignoring hardness.

With a 10min/level duration, would it be overpowered to increase the damage to 2d6/level, capped at 40d6 like Disintegrate? It'd compensate for the loss of hardness-ignoring to let it stay as a fast and voracious terrain-annihilator.

That would make it effectively the most powerful damaging spell in the game... so no not really.

The Glyphstone
2010-01-12, 12:38 PM
So it would be overpowered. Damage stays at 1d6/level then, but with the extended caster level cap in place as a minor flavor thing since it's so unlikely to actually come into play. Maw of Chaos does it better anyways if you're throwing around CL40 spells.

Drolyt
2010-01-12, 02:12 PM
So it would be overpowered. Damage stays at 1d6/level then, but with the extended caster level cap in place as a minor flavor thing since it's so unlikely to actually come into play. Maw of Chaos does it better anyways if you're throwing around CL40 spells.

Allowing it do deal d8s might be fine.

The Glyphstone
2010-01-12, 02:40 PM
Okay, iteration 2:

Quickfire
Conjuration (Creation)[Fire][Evil]
Level: Sorc/Wiz 9
Components: V,S, M
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft. +5ft/2 levels)
Effect: Patch of self-replicating magical fire (see text)
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Reflex half (see text)
Spell Resistance: See text

The work of researching new spells and sources of arcane power is a dangerous path, wrought with peril and frequently a matter of trial and error. Sometimes those errors are painful, occasionally they can be fatal. Once in a great while, they can have lasting effects that cause damage far beyond the expiration of their originating mage. And then there is the rare, and indescribably deadly spell known only as 'quickfire'. Only truly evil mages dare to conjure it, and only as a last resort or desperation move, for once invoked, the hellfire called forth takes on a sadistic will of its own and begins to spread out its own accord, as dangerous to its caster as anyone or anything else nearby.

A quickfire conflagration starts as a single 5ft. square of roaring infernal flames, conjured at a point of the caster's choosing. Each round thereafter, the flames spread to every adjacent square not already enveloped in quickfire. Should a solid, inflammable barrier block the fire's expansion, it will suffer damage as if it had been engulfed as the flames creep upward to cover it. New patches spawned in this manner will likewise spread to unaffected squares at the beginning of each round, creating an unstoppable tide of flame.

Any creature or object that finds itself in a square covered by quickfire at the start of its turn, or stands to impede a quickfire's spread, suffers 1d8 hellfire damage per caster level (max 40d8). A Reflex save may be attempted to halve the damage taken, but an additional save must be made each round the creature remains in quickfire. This is not considered fire damage, and so ignores any resistance or immunity to fire, and deals full damage to objects before applying hardness.

Additionally, a quickfire spread is exceptionally difficult to stop via magical means. It has no special resistance against dispelling, but each 5ft. square of quickfire is treated as a separate effect for the purposes of being targeted with dispels. This means that targeted dispels are only effective immediately after it has been conjured, and area dispels prove to be temporary respites at best unless invoked early in its spread. Once the spell's duration has elapsed, all patches of quickfire conjured by the spell extinguish themselves, though anything set on fire in the meantime continues to burn as if ignited non-magically.

Material Component: A handful of spiderwebs.

Flickerdart
2010-01-12, 03:03 PM
Man, I thought the material component was like this because you can set a Web spell on fire to deal damage to the area, but this spell skips the middle man and just get lots of Web's material components and then sets them on fire.

Drolyt
2010-01-12, 03:06 PM
Okay, iteration 2:

Quickfire
Conjuration (Creation)[Fire][Evil]
Level: Sorc/Wiz 9
Components: V,S, M
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25ft. +5ft/2 levels)
Effect: Patch of self-replicating magical fire (see text)
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Reflex half (see text)
Spell Resistance: See text

The work of researching new spells and sources of arcane power is a dangerous path, wrought with peril and frequently a matter of trial and error. Sometimes those errors are painful, occasionally they can be fatal. Once in a great while, they can have lasting effects that cause damage far beyond the expiration of their originating mage. And then there is the rare, and indescribably deadly spell known only as 'quickfire'. Only truly evil mages dare to conjure it, and only as a last resort or desperation move, for once invoked, the hellfire called forth takes on a sadistic will of its own and begins to spread out its own accord, as dangerous to its caster as anyone or anything else nearby.

A quickfire conflagration starts as a single 5ft. square of roaring infernal flames, conjured at a point of the caster's choosing. Each round thereafter, the flames spread to every adjacent square not already enveloped in quickfire. Should a solid, inflammable barrier block the fire's expansion, it will suffer damage as if it had been engulfed as the flames creep upward to cover it. New patches spawned in this manner will likewise spread to unaffected squares at the beginning of each round, creating an unstoppable tide of flame.

Any creature or object that finds itself in a square covered by quickfire at the start of its turn, or stands to impede a quickfire's spread, suffers 1d8 hellfire damage per caster level (max 40d8). A Reflex save may be attempted to halve the damage taken, but an additional save must be made each round the creature remains in quickfire. This is not considered fire damage, and so ignores any resistance or immunity to fire, and deals full damage to objects before applying hardness.

Additionally, a quickfire spread is exceptionally difficult to stop via magical means. It has no special resistance against dispelling, but each 5ft. square of quickfire is treated as a separate effect for the purposes of being targeted with dispels. This means that targeted dispels are only effective immediately after it has been conjured, and area dispels prove to be temporary respites at best unless invoked early in its spread. Once the spell's duration has elapsed, all patches of quickfire conjured by the spell extinguish themselves, though anything set on fire in the meantime continues to burn as if ignited non-magically.

Material Component: A handful of spiderwebs.

Sweet. I still don't get the spiderwebs reference though. Also why not put this in the OP marked as "new version" and put the old one in spoilers for reference?

Owrtho
2010-01-12, 03:12 PM
Because fire so hot that fire immunity doesn't work has always been a silly idea.

I tend to disagree with that idea. Mainly as fire immunity seems to be more so an issue of being resistant of temperatures that surpass the range of average fire (around 1000C to 1300C). However, when using various fuel sources, fire can get to much hire temperatures. Even when it comes to things like a fire elemental, it could be argued that the fire is able to use up the oxygen and as a result smother it.

Otherwise, it's a nice spell. I the way it works. It could be used in a practical fashion though if you had people ready to constantly dispel it.

Owrtho

The Glyphstone
2010-01-12, 03:35 PM
Okay, fine. I got the idea for the spell from an old turn-based RPG called Exile, made by Spiderweb Software (http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/). In Exile, and later their semi-3D remake Avernum, Quickfire was pretty much as presented here, but it was Permanent, and couldn't pass through closed doors or walls. It could go anywhere else though, and never went away - an entire dungeon could be rendered unexplorable if you accidentally dispelled, say, a Force Wall sealing in some Quickfire. Plus, Exile had no elemental resistances. Told you it was obscure.

I'll edit it in to the OP.

Vknight
2011-12-25, 11:26 AM
Can first be cast at level 17
10minutes a level
spreading at a rate of 10ft per round.
10rounds equals a minute

17005ft by 17005ft area... Yes

Metamagic Rods of Widen & Extend extends that to 68010ft. Ahh dreams of an infernal night.

gkathellar
2011-12-25, 12:01 PM
Zombies everywhere.

Reynard
2011-12-25, 12:14 PM
Can first be cast at level 17
10minutes a level
spreading at a rate of 10ft per round.
10rounds equals a minute

17005ft by 17005ft area... Yes

Metamagic Rods of Widen & Extend extends that to 68010ft. Ahh dreams of an infernal night.

Widen would just increase the size of the originating ball of fire. It would increase the total area covered, yes, but not by that much, I think.

Persisting it would be a world-ender that needs gods and/or PLOTIFACTS to stop, though.

Moogleking
2011-12-25, 04:34 PM
Fell Drain Quickfire a city forlulz :smallyuk: