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harpy
2010-01-11, 05:06 PM
I've been tinkering with the martial classes, trying to figure out ways to tweak them so that they fall more in line with the power curve of the full casters in the game.

So I decided to go back and look at the now long established "linear fighter, quadratic wizard" issue and decided to just tackle it head on. Why not simply rebuild the Fighter class so that it has a quadratic progression?

It might not work, it might be grossly overpowered, but since there is such a huge disparity between the Wizard and the Fighter in the later levels of the game there ought to be plenty of room to boost the fighter without it becoming problematic.

In addition, because of Star Wars Saga and it's heavy use of talents, and seeing that the Rogue in Pathfinder is also using this method for progression, I thought to rework the fighter using this method. It adds more variety and flavor for the player to work with and I think is ultimately a superior way of customizing most classes.

In terms of sources, I'm drawing upon the updated fighter out of Trailblazer, the Warrior in Fantasy Concepts, and of course the Pathfinder Fighter. The basis of the analysis is building off of the work that Craig Cochrane did with his overhaul of the CR system.

Beat it, mash it, smash it apart... but we can rebuild him... bigger, faster, stronger.

The Quadratic Fighter (http://www.mediafire.com/?0zinhalm1z0)

arguskos
2010-01-11, 05:25 PM
...ok, I like the Fighter Talents you made there, they're nice bonuses.

However... you um... you gave them FIFTY-TWO bonus feats! There aren't that many feats anyone could possibly want to take ever! Thirty-six of those are from levels 15-20. I see what you're doing, but I'm not sure 36 feats in 6 levels is the solution (or in fact, a solution for anything at all).

Big thing here I liked was that there are two feat tracks (combat and general) and the Fighter Talents, which are pretty much all neat and fun.

9mm
2010-01-11, 05:27 PM
meh.. still rather liniear; most fixes I've seen that work involve usualy involve slightly more skill points, better save progression, and a combination of enemy movement halting, or extra action economy improvement.

Draz74
2010-01-11, 05:28 PM
I only skimmed it ... but I think you could get some ideas for more powerful (but still appropriate) Talents from the Bears With Lasers Fighter Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30692).

harpy
2010-01-11, 06:10 PM
...ok, I like the Fighter Talents you made there, they're nice bonuses.

However... you um... you gave them FIFTY-TWO bonus feats! There aren't that many feats anyone could possibly want to take ever! Thirty-six of those are from levels 15-20. I see what you're doing, but I'm not sure 36 feats in 6 levels is the solution (or in fact, a solution for anything at all).

The basic principle I'm working with is that in general, spells scale, but feats stack. So when you start to crunch and munch numbers, you find that the scaling effect of spells, along with the vast number of spells available to spellcasters at higher levels, is ultimately what pushing up their power curve so high.

Since feats stack, rather than scale, you end up needing a lots and lots of feats to compete with those level 7, 8 and 9th level spells, along with the huge number of lower level spells.

Willfor
2010-01-11, 06:14 PM
Since feats stack, rather than scale, you end up needing a lots and lots of feats to compete with those level 7, 8 and 9th level spells, along with the huge number of lower level spells.

Why doesn't anyone make feats stack and scale at the same time then? :smallconfused:

sofawall
2010-01-11, 06:20 PM
The basic principle I'm working with is that in general, spells scale, but feats stack. So when you start to crunch and munch numbers, you find that the scaling effect of spells, along with the vast number of spells available to spellcasters at higher levels, is ultimately what pushing up their power curve so high.

Since feats stack, rather than scale, you end up needing a lots and lots of feats to compete with those level 7, 8 and 9th level spells, along with the huge number of lower level spells.

However, you can only take Power Attack once. you can only take Leap Attack once. You can only take Imp. Trip. once, etc.

I can't see myself finding that many feats to actually take.

Draz74
2010-01-11, 06:23 PM
However, you can only take Power Attack once. you can only take Leap Attack once. You can only take Imp. Trip. once, etc.

I can't see myself finding that many feats to actually take.

I tried. I came up with as many good feats as I could think of for my Gestalt Master of Nine build. He fights with a Kusari-Gama and a Shield, so I had lots of ideas. Mage Slayer tree ... a bunch of feats to improve his Maneuver initiating ...

I got stuck at about 40. 52 really is ridiculous.

harpy
2010-01-11, 06:24 PM
Why doesn't anyone make feats stack and scale at the same time then? :smallconfused:

That's a question I'd love to be able to ask the original 3e designers.

That would definitely be the proper and exhaustive way of doing it. But then of course you have to overhaul all of the feats so that they scale. I'm trying to play around with a design that is more of a "surgical strike" where you just replace the fighter with this one and nothing else in the system has to be messed with.

4e did this by making everyone mechanically like a spellcaster and then bringing into high contrast the roles of each class and what sphere of mechanical tools they can utilize. It works, but at the cost kicking the system so far into "gamist" territory that if you don't want that style of game it is hard to claw your way out of it.

Trailblazer is trying to fix the system with a variety of smaller tweaks that add up, but among them is something similar to how you are describing above. Every class has not only BAB, but also a "Base Magic Bonus" which scales with level, allowing for multiclassing, while also still allowing spell advancement, but at various scales depending on the type of class picked.

Pathfinder doesn't do too much to try and fix high level play. They expand feats a bit, both in number and the greater versions of Iron Will and the like, and the save-or-die and save-or-suck spells have been toned down a bit, but it definitely isn't the major overhaul of 4e, or the extensive patching of Trailblazer.

Overall, the intent I have with the "fixed" classes I'm working on is to make a product that can be plugged into the Pathfinder game. Trailblazer is a great patching system, but it is far more invasive and so if people don't want to muck around with the system as much, then the idea would be that the fixed classes would at least edge those lines on the chart a little bit closer. One of the biggest complaints about high level play is just that the spellcasters have a wide range of options to use, and are potent, whereas the martial characters tend to be specialized one trick ponies and don't have the "I win" buttons that the spellcasters have.

So overall the fixes are to:

Give more versatility at high levels - Make the martial characters two, three, or four trick ponies, rather than just one.
Give more variety with a talent system - Let players decide when a lot of the class features, which aren't necessarily that powerful, get brought out.

harpy
2010-01-11, 06:27 PM
However, you can only take Power Attack once. you can only take Leap Attack once. You can only take Imp. Trip. once, etc.

I can't see myself finding that many feats to actually take.

Well, the Pathfinder SRD has 104 feats listed as combat feats, so there should be plenty of options open. If you start adding in older 3.5 books then there ought to be plenty of material to play with.

The overall idea is to add diversity to the fighter's repertoire. Rather than being a highly specialized one trick pony, instead by 20th level you've become a master at a wide range of martial tactics. You could take the entire ranged feat tree, plus the power attack feat tree, plus be a trip monkey, etc.

The major thing is to move away from the idea that you're supposed to be narrowing in focus, but instead be potent in many different strategies. That way the fighter can deal with more situations at higher level.

9mm
2010-01-11, 06:36 PM
pity even basic fighters run out of synagistic, stackable feats at about level 16.

arguskos
2010-01-11, 07:49 PM
There's more to it than "here, have 104 feats". Not all those feats are worth a damn. Yeah, maybe 20-30 are actually useful, but most aren't. Yeah, ok, so I can take an entire combat tree at level 20 in one swipe, but the trick is that MOST of those feats still suck.

This fix, while interesting and with some promise, doesn't fix the underlying issue: that the majority feats don't carry enough punch to compare.

Doc Roc
2010-01-11, 07:53 PM
Might I ask you to take a look at the war-marked in my sig for a.... disparate take on this issue?

Sharkman1231
2010-01-11, 08:58 PM
What does PEACH mean?
Also, I don't mind the pathfinder fighter too much, I think the best part is Armor Training (I think thats the one)(gotten at 3rd lvl). Yeah, I started running out of feats to get some levels. (9,10,14,15)

arguskos
2010-01-11, 09:01 PM
What does PEACH mean?
Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-11, 09:19 PM
It works, but at the cost kicking the system so far into "gamist" territory that if you don't want that style of game it is hard to claw your way out of it.

It's hard, but arguably no harder than trying to reconcile 3e fighters and wizards. It's certainly been done often.

Kyrthain
2010-01-11, 10:14 PM
I only skimmed it ... but I think you could get some ideas for more powerful (but still appropriate) Talents from the Bears With Lasers Fighter Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30692).

When I followed the link I was hoping the fix actually had something to do with bears with lasers.:smallfrown: That would have been cool.:smalltongue:

Draz74
2010-01-11, 10:17 PM
Sorry! :smallamused:

OracleofWuffing
2010-01-11, 10:42 PM
When I followed the link I was hoping the fix actually had something to do with bears with lasers.:smallfrown: That would have been cool.:smalltongue:
That's the Druid fighter fix.:smalltongue:

Anyhow, Toughness. Someone has to say it.

Smythen
2010-01-12, 08:14 AM
Just stay with the pathfinder fighter, maybe ad 2 more skillpoints per lvl. Take some tactical feats and go to town.

Fighters (warriors) are suppossed to support and protect wizards and rogues, with their ability to soak dammage and fleshing it out.
Like wizards support and protects and buff the fighter with his spells.
The rogue can open the doors and and traps. etc....

Doc Roc
2010-01-12, 10:58 AM
Actually, 100 hits of toughness would offer 300 health.

This is, unfortunately, one of the only good options with this fix.

Oslecamo
2010-01-12, 11:11 AM
At this rate, we'll have enough alternate new fighters to make a whole new game with just them. Or at least an arena.

My own stuff:
The real fighter-laser-shooting-bear! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133626)
Badass normal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7622011)

Totally Guy
2010-01-12, 11:55 AM
My quadratic fighter:

Level:BAB
1 : 1
2 : 2
3 : 3
4 : 4
5 : 5
6 : 6/1
7 : 8/3
8 : 10/5
9 : 12/7/2
10 : 14/9/4
11 : 16/11/6/1
12 : 19/14/9/4
13 : 22/17/12/7/2
14 : 25/20/15/10/5
15 : 28/23/18/13/8/3
16 : 32/27/22/17/12/7/2
17 : 36/31/26/21/16/11/6/1
18 : 40/35/30/25/20/15/10/5
19 : 45/40/35/30/25/20/15/10/5
20 : 50/45/40/35/30/25/20/15/10/5

:smalltongue:

deuxhero
2010-01-12, 11:58 AM
This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) is my favorite fighter fix :)

Mongoose87
2010-01-12, 12:26 PM
This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) is my favorite fighter fix :)

I've got friend who plays with fighters that are fighters+warblade maneuver progression.

harpy
2010-01-12, 01:05 PM
This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) is my favorite fighter fix :)

Unfortunately for myself I don't enjoy that as an answer.

Aesthetically, both in theme and mechanics it isn't doing what I'd want out of a martial character.

Thematically it's too Asian oriented, with far too much wuxia stuff going on.

Mechanically, it's 2/3 of the way towards 4e's answer, which is to just make all of the classes spellcasters in terms of their mechanics. That kind of symmetry is what I want to avoid.

For myself I want to see a kind of "asymmetric balance" in a system, where wildly different sub-systems are being used by different classes, but which with a lot of work on the designers part, function well together.

harpy
2010-01-12, 01:13 PM
My quadratic fighter:

Level:BAB
1 : 1
2 : 2
3 : 3
4 : 4
5 : 5
6 : 6/1
7 : 8/3
8 : 10/5
9 : 12/7/2
10 : 14/9/4
11 : 16/11/6/1
12 : 19/14/9/4
13 : 22/17/12/7/2
14 : 25/20/15/10/5
15 : 28/23/18/13/8/3
16 : 32/27/22/17/12/7/2
17 : 36/31/26/21/16/11/6/1
18 : 40/35/30/25/20/15/10/5
19 : 45/40/35/30/25/20/15/10/5
20 : 50/45/40/35/30/25/20/15/10/5

:smalltongue:

heh... I'd actually considered that as another way of approaching it. The real problem with just expanding the number of attacks is that, first, at around level 9 a martial type of character that is properly built is essentially only going to miss on a 1. The system does this wacky s-curve in terms of needing to hit vs. needing to save against effects.

The other problem is that because of how 3e built their iterative attacks, it slows the game down since each iterative attack has a different to hit value. They ought to have worked out the system so that you just got additional attacks and all of them had the same to hit value.

Iterative attacks could be fixed, Star Wars Saga does a much better job of streamlining how you use that element of the game, but it does require monkeying around with the guts of the system.

What I'm trying to do with the Quadratic Fighter is to make a "plug and play" patch, which would allow someone to play at high levels as a fighter, not be as overshadowed by spellcasters (I don't think even what I put together can fully answer that issue due to the overall game structure), but also just use as much of the rules as written, hardly modifying anything except how the class itself progresses.

deuxhero
2010-01-12, 01:22 PM
Thematically it's too Asian oriented, with far too much wuxia stuff going on.


"I can attempt to disarm an opponent and hit him at the same time"
"I can attempt to damage his weapon to weaken his offence"
"I can do extra damage by ignoring defence"
"I can hit more than one person with my attack"

What is wuxia about them?

Swordsage and Crusader have "supernatural" things... just like the monk and paladin do.

Oslecamo
2010-01-12, 01:27 PM
What is wuxia about them?


The fluff.

And then stuff like Iron Hearth Surge (destroy reality by flexing your muscles!). Lighting strike(boomerang great axe!).
Damaging your enemy with your sheer strenght of will regardless of the weapon you're using (the whole diamond mind school).

deuxhero
2010-01-12, 01:54 PM
Hence why they are exclusive to the 2 supernatural classes?

IHS, as intend, allows you to ignore something like fatigue, hold person or other personal effect (all entirely reasonable). It's just that it is poorly writen.

Draz74
2010-01-12, 02:00 PM
Hence why they are exclusive to the 2 supernatural classes?

Um. How is Lightning Throw exclusive to the "supernatural classes"? It's Iron Heart. The Diamond Mind maneuvers he mentioned are for the Warblade, too (though I don't see those as very supernatural).

Lightning Throw is, IMHO, the most wuxia maneuver in the book, except possibly the Desert Wind and Shadow Hand stances that let you walk on air.

Don't get me wrong, Warblade can be used to build an excellent, totally non-magical warrior. But with Lightning Throw, and if you fluff Iron Heart Surge/Insightful Strike/Swooping Dragon Strike/etc. the wrong way, it can also come off as extremely wuxia.

Fail
2010-01-12, 02:01 PM
Feats that scale and (sorta) stack (which's as it should). (http://turing.bard.edu/~mk561/frank_k_0.5.1.pdf)

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-01-12, 02:01 PM
The fluff.

And then stuff like Iron Hearth Surge (destroy reality by flexing your muscles!). Lighting strike(boomerang great axe!).
Damaging your enemy with your sheer strenght of will regardless of the weapon you're using (the whole diamond mind school).

Of those three, only Lightning Throw is really out of the ordinary; Iron Heart Surge is all those "You cannot control my mind, puny sorcerer!" moments in fiction, and Diamond Mind can easily be seen as a dueling discipline. Crusader and Swordsage are definitely supernatural to a degree because they're pseudo-paladins and -monks, but the warblade is as mundane as the fighter, just a bit more dramatic-sounding with the given fluff.

I think Xefas made the point the best:


Character A focuses all his strength into a powerful blow, sacrificing his accuracy for a decisive swing.
Character B focuses all his strength into a powerful blow, sacrificing his accuracy for a decisive swing.

Which one just used the Power Attack feat, and which one just used the Mountain Hammer strike while in the Punishing Stance?

Character A swings his blade in a wide arc, cutting through one foe and cleaving into another.
Character B swings his blade in a wide arc, cutting through one foe and cleaving into another.

Which one just used the Cleave feat, and which one just used the Steel Wind strike?

Character A thrusts his blade forward, under his opponent's swing, twists his blade and pulls up, deftly wrenching his foe's blade out of his grip.
Character B thrusts his blade forward, under his opponent's swing, twists his blade and pulls up, deftly wrenching his foe's blade out of his grip.

Which one just used the Disarm action, and which one just used Disarming Strike?

Character A makes a running leap and thrusts both blades into his opponent.
Character B makes a running leap and thrusts both blades into his opponent.

Which one just used the Leap Attack and Two-Weapon Fighting feats, and which one used the Sudden Leap and Wolf Fang Strike maneuver?

Yeah, those damn Tome of Battle classes and their crazy magic we've never seen before 'cept in Anime. Such a massive difference, you can tell.

lesser_minion
2010-01-12, 02:19 PM
This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) is my favorite fighter fix :)

ToB takes the worst of the existing magic system and uses it to describe something comparable to spells for martial characters. It's nice as a way to balance the game, but it isn't my cup of tea.


For myself I want to see a kind of "asymmetric balance" in a system, where wildly different sub-systems are being used by different classes, but which with a lot of work on the designers part, function well together.

With well done rules, I don't see how the game becomes more accurate, immersive, or dramatic when classes start using radically different subsystems.

When your mechanics are consistent and easy to understand, the rules get in your way far less often, no matter what you're trying to do.

4e's biggest problem is that it takes the worst bits of 3e and makes everyone put up with them. Not any kind of bizarre 'consistency' or 'homogenisation' issue.

Oslecamo
2010-01-12, 02:35 PM
Of those three, only Lightning Throw is really out of the ordinary; Iron Heart Surge is all those "You cannot control my mind, puny sorcerer!" moments in fiction,

Except that it specifically cannot do that. Get hold monstered and unable to take a standard action? No "cannot control my mind you puny wizard" for you!



and Diamond Mind can easily be seen as a dueling discipline.

Except that it doesn't care what weapon you're using. You're killing people with scarfs/plushies, wich is as wuxia as you get.



I think Xefas made the point the best:

Question A: the dude using mountain hammer is the one doing a single fancy attack, while the non ToB dude is making a full attack.

Question B: easy. The ToB dude is the one whose "cleave" draws no blood, because he doesn't actually need to hit the first target to hit the second. Making your blade pass trough your oponent whitout harming him, now there's some high quality Wuxia!

Question C: easy again.The wuxia dude is the one who, since he has revealed his secret tequnique, cannot use it again in this or the next turn, due to his code of honor or the ancestral spirits forbidding him.

Question D: See above.

Deepblue706
2010-01-12, 02:39 PM
I think you can use a Warblade to create a not-very-fantastical warrior. I just hate all those fruity names associated with those abilities.

I don't want to be a Fighter who uses Awesome Technique X. I want to be a Fighter who uses I Hit You A Lot With My Sword, I'mma Gonna Hit You In The Balls Now, and Knuckle Sandwich, Biatch.

When you train to fight, you don't bother with elaborate names. You do Number 1, Number 2, Number 3, and Number 4. Then later, you do some more numbers, because that's a hell of a lot more efficient than Iron This and Diamond That. And if it's not an attack, but just some "inner will" crap? Call it "RRRAAAGH!"

Sure, you can just rename everything in the ToB to fit what you want. But, I don't believe in having to rename everything about a class in order to use it to my liking.

lesser_minion
2010-01-12, 02:42 PM
Question C: easy again.The wuxia dude is the one who, since he has revealed his secret tequnique, cannot use it again in this or the next turn, due to his code of honor or the ancestral spirits forbidding him.

Question D: See above.

Anti-spam mechanics are fine - why would you expect to be able to stab someone in a particular way sixteen times in a row?

It's not just the fact that doing a triple-backflip to dodge an attack stops being awesome the fifteenth time you do it in a one minute fight.

As with injuries, the way fights pan out is complicated enough that going much further than "you can't use this all the time" doesn't add much of anything to the game.

This isn't Final Fantasy. You don't patiently wait until it's your turn to attack before casually running up, attacking with some secret technique, and running off.

Trouvere
2010-01-12, 02:43 PM
[Tome of Battle is] 2/3 of the way towards 4e's answer, which is to just make all of the classes spellcasters in terms of their mechanics. That kind of symmetry is what I want to avoid.I would have much preferred that the ToB material had been presented as a great big collection of Tactical Feats that could be taken as fighter bonus feats, with each providing a chain of two or three options identical to maneuvers. A lot of these feats would have been more powerful than existing PHB, PHB2 or CW feats, but that's what melee needed, anyway.

Instead, ToB obsoleted 4 or 5 of the core PHB classes, by overlaying a kind of pseudo-spell progression on new melee classes, while providing no real means for the original classes to gain the new options to anything like the same extent. While ToB is fine and interesting, it still makes me a bit sad that they chose that mechanical route.

Draz74
2010-01-12, 02:57 PM
I would have much preferred that the ToB material had been presented as a great big collection of Tactical Feats that could be taken as fighter bonus feats, with each providing a chain of two or three options identical to maneuvers. A lot of these feats would have been more powerful than existing PHB, PHB2 or CW feats, but that's what melee needed, anyway.

Instead, ToB obsoleted 4 or 5 of the core PHB classes, by overlaying a kind of pseudo-spell progression on new melee classes, while providing no real means for the original classes to gain the new options to anything like the same extent. While ToB is fine and interesting, it still makes me a bit sad that they chose that mechanical route.

Actually, it's pretty impressive what martial tricks you can stack on a non-ToB-class character with a couple of Martial Study feats, Martial Stance, and a few 3000-gp items. My Factotum is pretty feat-starved, but he doesn't mind being able to use Mountain Hammer, Counter Charge, Burning Brand, and Disarming Strike 1/encounter each. I have a Bard build that can spare one feat ... so with that and a Crown of the White Raven, he can use White Raven Tactics 1/encounter, and add half his level to the damage anytime he or anyone in his party charges. It's not a bad investment. Just a 3000-gp Devoted Spirit Amulet goes a long way toward making Sword-and-Board a justifiable style for any melee character, and it's hard to find a caster than shouldn't invest in a Ring of the Diamond Mind to cover a bad save.

But by all means, if you can do a better job than ToB via a bunch of homebrewed Tactical feats, please do -- and share. I wouldn't mind at all having access to that material as I work on my own system (which will be vaguely along those lines).

I think you'll find, though, that it's harder than you think, making feats that are neither underwhelming nor Shock Trooper-esque (i.e. they end up getting used every round rather than "opportunistically," as intended; and they end up turning melee builds into one-trick ponies).

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-01-12, 03:15 PM
The problem of the Quadratic Fighter is just half the issue though...and, in my mind, the lesser half. Observe.

The Wizard: The Wizard has a quadratic power curve, as its spells increase dramatically in power at each subsequent spell level. It also has a quadratic Utility curve, gaining immense combat and noncombat abilities as it learns new spells with new effects.

The Fighter: The Fighter has a linear power curve, as it increases by static numerals. It also has a linear Utility curve, gaining few (if any) new tricks, and having all its tricks tie directly into combat (and usually dealing hit point damage).

Power aside, the Fighter still suffers from a lack of versatility in situations outside combat, or where direct hit point damage to a single foe is irrelevant. This issue needs to be addressed in any decent fighter fix.

Hurlbut
2010-01-12, 03:19 PM
Actually, 100 hits of toughness would offer 300 health.

This is, unfortunately, one of the only good options with this fix.Incorrect; the Pathfinder's Toughness is essentially Improved Toughness. So you're looking at 20 HP PER hit for a 20th level fighter.

Willfor
2010-01-12, 03:52 PM
Turning Fighters into Wizards:

Fighter's Charm

Through the delicate diplomacy that can only be achieved by having a giant piece of steel ready to put through the person's mental centre, you improve the target's reactions to you as if they were Friendly.


Fighter's Polymorph

By jumping inside of a creature at least one size larger than you through methods best left to the DM's discretion, you assume all of their combat abilities and physical ability scores as if you were using them as a puppet from the inside. Which you are.


Fighter's Time Stop

You flex your muscles and move so fast that time appears to stop around you. You get this at roughly the time a Wizard gets theirs, so the power level is roughly even, and it has roughly the same effect with no physical justification. People who have a problem with this can have a nice can of Just Shut Up And Roll With It (tm).


Fighter's Celerity

He wrote it on his character sheet, what are you going to do about it? :smallcool:

Oslecamo
2010-01-12, 03:56 PM
He wrote it on his character sheet, what are you going to do about it? :smallcool:

I actually did exactly that in the WOTC forums some years ago. Except that it was with fireball jump-whirlwind attack-jump back. And armor got on the way of your uber martial skillz.:smalltongue:

Also, direct damage is never irrelevant. Everything that moves has HP, and if you take enough of them they stop moving. Also works for taking down doors and disabling traps.

lesser_minion
2010-01-12, 04:03 PM
Turning Fighters into Wizards:

Fighter's Charm

Through the delicate diplomacy that can only be achieved by having a giant piece of steel ready to put through the person's mental centre, you improve the target's reactions to you as if they were Friendly.


Fighter's Polymorph

By jumping inside of a creature at least one size larger than you through methods best left to the DM's discretion, you assume all of their combat abilities and physical ability scores as if you were using them as a puppet from the inside. Which you are.


Fighter's Time Stop

You flex your muscles and move so fast that time appears to stop around you. You get this at roughly the time a Wizard gets theirs, so the power level is roughly even, and it has roughly the same effect with no physical justification. People who have a problem with this can have a nice can of Just Shut Up And Roll With It (tm).


Fighter's Celerity

He wrote it on his character sheet, what are you going to do about it? :smallcool:

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, just plain nooooooooooooooooooooooo.

Just no.

I don't mind being supernatural. The notion that fighters have to be mundanes is infinitely more wrong than the notion that mundanes have to be weaker than supernaturals.

If I wanted to be a wizard, however, I would have asked to play a wizard.

bosssmiley
2010-01-12, 04:28 PM
This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) is my favorite fighter fix :)

There can be no words. There is only:

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs9/i/2006/055/c/b/Wub_by_xadhoom.jpg

Tyndmyr
2010-01-12, 04:51 PM
Actually, 100 hits of toughness would offer 300 health.

This is, unfortunately, one of the only good options with this fix.

Screw that....improved toughness. Or, find a way to take epic feats, and take epic toughmess. Granted, that's more 3.5 than pathfinder, but still...don't knock sheer volume of feats.

I think a fighter with essentially all the combat feats would be reasonably badass...that doesn't bother me. What does bother me is that all fighters then start to look remarkably similar.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-01-12, 05:13 PM
Except that it specifically cannot do that. Get hold monstered and unable to take a standard action? No "cannot control my mind you puny wizard" for you!

Granted. It is, however, supposed to do that, WotC's bad wording notwithstanding.


Except that it doesn't care what weapon you're using. You're killing people with scarfs/plushies, wich is as wuxia as you get.

You can Power Attack with a stick or really big feather, or anything else big enough to be a one-handed weapon.


Question A: the dude using mountain hammer is the one doing a single fancy attack, while the non ToB dude is making a full attack.

Is he? It does say decisive swing, singular; how do you know it's not that one of them is charging without Pounce for just one attack and the other one follows up their one Mountain Hammer with a Dancing Mongoose for two attacks total? Or that they're both be below 6th level?


Question B: easy. The ToB dude is the one whose "cleave" draws no blood, because he doesn't actually need to hit the first target to hit the second. Making your blade pass trough your oponent whitout harming him, now there's some high quality Wuxia!

Cleave doesn't have to draw blood either; HP is just as much morale and stamina as physical wounds.


Question C: easy again.The wuxia dude is the one who, since he has revealed his secret tequnique, cannot use it again in this or the next turn, due to his code of honor or the ancestral spirits forbidding him.

Who's to say the guy using Disarm isn't going to use Disarming Strike next turn, or vice versa?

All of these "ToB = Anime/Wuxia" points are completely based on objections to minor points in the fluff; for Pelor's sake, if the arguments boil down to "The ToB guy is making fewer attacks and only doing maneuvers every other round" then a 5th-level charge-spec fighter is the most wuxia character in core! I don't think ToB is a perfect fix by any means, but ignoring mechanics because you don't like the fluff means you're going to miss some good mechanics.

harpy
2010-01-12, 06:22 PM
All of these "ToB = Anime/Wuxia" points are completely based on objections to minor points in the fluff; for Pelor's sake, if the arguments boil down to "The ToB guy is making fewer attacks and only doing maneuvers every other round" then a 5th-level charge-spec fighter is the most wuxia character in core! I don't think ToB is a perfect fix by any means, but ignoring mechanics because you don't like the fluff means you're going to miss some good mechanics.

Well, for myself it's a few things:

Icky fluff - I know it's not very logical, but I just don't like the tone and feel. I know I'm dating myself and probably a dinosaur, but I want the Tolkien/Sword and Sorcery filter to be used with the themes.

Non OGL material - I'm trying to look towards the next decade and OGL is the way to keep developing and ultimately fixing the overall game system.

Solution is to make martial characters more like spellcasters with cooldowns - I like my asymmetry. I want different subsystems being used. I think that helps keep the game a good mixture of gamist and simulationist approaches. If everyone ends up being a spellcaster mechanically then we might as well be playing 4e, which is far too deep in gamist territory for my taste.

Emphasis on specialization rather than generalization - I think this is a kind of general diffusion of Asian cultural influences into the game scene. I'm kind of pushing back a bit against that. A 20th level fighter I'd like to see as the "total package" dude. He's the Adonis, the exemplar of the physical condition and can pretty much be awesome at everything he does.

The asian style though is more about having a secret mastery of a special technique. "I'm the master of monkey fist!" or "I will kill you with my secret crane attack." It's not like there is anything wrong with the Asian style of play, but it's shoved out the western style of just being awesome.

Now the complaint can be made that all fighters are going to feel the same. However at least what I'm trying to do is really only have a major impact on the last third of the game. I'm not even sure how many people play at such a high level to begin with, but it can't be nearly as many as who just play low to mid level games, where the issue of class power curves isn't really a problem.

The thing is, I don't see anyone complaining about Wizards all being the same at 20th level with their wish spells and other world breaking effects, but for some reason fighters are supposed to be these hyper specialized special snowflake one-trick ponies. My view is that they should simply be awesome with whatever weapon they have in hand.

olentu
2010-01-12, 06:28 PM
The asian style though is more about having a secret mastery of a special technique. "I'm the master of monkey fist!" or "I will kill you with my secret crane attack." It's not like there is anything wrong with the Asian style of play, but it's shoved out the western style of just being awesome.

I will say that fighters actually seem to me to be more focused on secret styles that they have trained extensively on then tome of battle characters due to stacking feats on one trick. The names are perhaps more mundane but the styles are more focused.

Doc Roc
2010-01-12, 06:49 PM
I will say that fighters actually seem to me to be more focused on secret styles that they have trained extensively on then tome of battle characters due to stacking feats on one trick. The names are perhaps more mundane but the styles are more focused.

Okay guys, have you studied any actual combat schools?
Real ones, in real life, from a place now called Germany, say?
They have names just like the ToB ones. Cheesier, actually.

olentu
2010-01-12, 06:51 PM
Okay guys, have you studied any actual combat schools?
Real ones, in real life, from a place now called Germany, say?
They have names just like the ToB ones. Cheesier, actually.

Oh I was talking about the D&D names. Real life had little to do with it.

I_Got_This_Name
2010-01-12, 07:28 PM
The problem of the Quadratic Fighter is just half the issue though...and, in my mind, the lesser half. Observe.

[snipped]

Power aside, the Fighter still suffers from a lack of versatility in situations outside combat, or where direct hit point damage to a single foe is irrelevant. This issue needs to be addressed in any decent fighter fix.

Exactly right.

Every character needs to be able to contribute something to any situation the game might throw at them.
The wizard is defined as "a character who uses magic to do stuff."
The fighter is defined as "a character who fights."

Every single situation can be solved by "doing stuff" for some value of stuff. Not every situation (a tense negotiation, crossing a mountain pass during a hailstorm, organizing the peasants to fight off the orcs, building a castle) can be resolved by fighting.

The fighter has, inherent to the concept, less utility than the wizard. They also don't fight as well, but that's a separate problem.

If you want to do as little to the system as possible, the fighter needs to be redefined. One way is to borrow some stuff from the rogue (definition "someone who uses underhanded tricks to do stuff"). Not a whole lot, just, say, stealth, social interaction, and maybe some mechanical skills, plus some skill points. Another would be to make the fighter Just That Good; their training gives them superpowers that extend beyond just fighting. The fighter deals with social situations by being impressive. The fighter deals with wilderness exploration by being stronger than the wilderness. The fighter builds a castle by having the strength of ten ordinary men.

Now, to make it combat-appropriate, their feats need to be level-appropriate. This means that there need to be feats that allow the fighter to participate in combats where the enemies are slinging around high-level spells. So these feats might be equivalent to always-on buff spells, or the ability to cast a spell, or something (Wail of the Banshee might be equivalent to something where the fighter runs around, attacks everyone he passes, and forces them to save or die on hit). They also need to have prerequisites to keep low-level fighters from grabbing them, but also so that a fighter can branch out on a new level gained as easily as a wizard can.

Remember that an 12th level Wizard who has never cast a Necromancy spell in his life (but hasn't banned it) can learn two sixth-level Necromancy spells on gaining 12th level and have level-appropriate abilities right off the bat. A 12th level (core) fighter who wants to branch out from Tripping to Lancing would take Power Attack and Mounted Combat (or maybe Mounted Combat and Spirited Charge or something), which are abilities a 1st level character might have.

Likewise, if a newly 15th level wizard has only taken Necromancy spells from level 10 onward as his new spells, but decides he wants to shore up his Divination, she can just grab two eighth-level divination spells and be a level-appropriate Diviner again, and, in fact, a better diviner than necromancer. So a fighter should be able to shore up their own skills better.

I've seen this managed with scaling feats, here (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Races_of_War_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Warriors_with_Style#The_Failure_of_Feats). Simply piling more feats onto the fighter won't do it, unless actually level-appropriate feats for the fighter are added past the lowest levels.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-01-12, 07:33 PM
Well, for myself it's a few things:

Icky fluff - I know it's not very logical, but I just don't like the tone and feel. I know I'm dating myself and probably a dinosaur, but I want the Tolkien/Sword and Sorcery filter to be used with the themes.

Not liking the fluff is fine--it's a subjective complaint, at least--but talking about reworking martial classes but then refusing to look at ToB purely because of the flavor is, I think, missing out on a lot of potential.


Non OGL material - I'm trying to look towards the next decade and OGL is the way to keep developing and ultimately fixing the overall game system.

Which is a perfectly valid concern if you're just using ToB, but again, that shouldn't deter you from just taking inspiration from it for your own homebrew.


The asian style though is more about having a secret mastery of a special technique. "I'm the master of monkey fist!" or "I will kill you with my secret crane attack." It's not like there is anything wrong with the Asian style of play, but it's shoved out the western style of just being awesome.

As Doc Roc pointed out, every fighting style names their attacks; the stereotype of medieval warriors slugging it out with swords barely better than thin metal clubs is completely wrong. (One excellent thread I've read on dispelling that notion is this one (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/242110-history-mythology-art-rpgs.html) on EnWorld.) You can't expect people to work on their "Slash the guy's left shoulder" technique followed by their "Punch the guy in the gut" maneuver, can you?


Stuff

This guy knows what he's talking about.

Shpadoinkle
2010-01-12, 11:47 PM
Giving fighters more feats doesn't fix anything, it just gives the fighter a wider variety of situations where he COULD be useful but isn't because a full caster is there.

What fighters need is abilities that advance with thier level, (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) not just a ****load more level 1 abilities.

Giving the fighter more feats is like giving the sorcerer more spells, except he can only ever learn level 1, 2, or 3 spells.

deuxhero
2010-01-13, 12:09 AM
And the spells can't be sleep, color spray, wings of cover, grease, haste, fly, invisiblity, charm person.... ah blank it "everything not from evocation"

lesser_minion
2010-01-13, 09:38 AM
Giving fighters more feats doesn't fix anything, it just gives the fighter a wider variety of situations where he COULD be useful but isn't because a full caster is there.

What fighters need is abilities that advance with thier level, (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) not just a ****load more level 1 abilities.

Giving the fighter more feats is like giving the sorcerer more spells, except he can only ever learn level 1, 2, or 3 spells.

But they also need to get away from 'card-driven' systems. When you have a block of text that says "this is the exact effect of this technique, spell, invocation, power or whatever", you have an issue, because that sucks (in roleplaying games. Card games are fun, but they aren't RPGs). I don't care when your cards return to your hand, or how they get into your hand in the first place.

Cards suck. That isn't about to change, and it doesn't change just because there are no physical cards. It's still functionally a card-driven system.

Oslecamo
2010-01-13, 09:50 AM
What fighters need is abilities that advance with thier level, (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) not just a ****load more level 1 abilities.


Actualy, if you look closely, pretty much all maneuvers don't advance with your level at all.

IHS, WRT, pretty much all burning desert ones, all of the 9th level ones, they have fixed effects.

Nightmare blades increases with your concentration skill...But you cannot power attack with them, or benefit from any damage bonus that do increase by level as you get more stats and better weapons.

So we have just a few wich actually increase by level, like the one wich adds +1 damage per IL, and the sudden leap.

Anonymouswizard
2010-01-13, 10:55 AM
I actually did exactly that in the WOTC forums some years ago. Except that it was with fireball jump-whirlwind attack-jump back. And armor got on the way of your uber martial skillz.:smalltongue:

jump-whirlwind attack-jump back
Prerequisite: fighter level 5.
Benefit: as full round action you can leap up to 400ft+40ft per fighter level, and deal 1d6 per fighter level fire damage, up to a maximum of 10d6, as long as you hold a flaming weapon.
Normal: you cannot break the laws of physics. /have fun running.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-01-13, 12:12 PM
*snip*

I approve of everything this man said. Mainly because we pretty much said the same thing (although he was definitely more comprehensive and verbose on the subject), but still. :smallbiggrin:

That said, while the Races of War feats are pretty good, they are still lacking in some major departments. They don't scale anywhere near as nicely as a Wizard's spells do, and a lot of them have predetermined effects that limit versatility.

What about a system like the following?

Feats are reworked to be at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19 (when new spells would be unlocked). Fighters also get feats every even level, and a bonus feat at 1st.

Feats become something like this:

Cleave [Martial 3, Combat Technique, Fighter]
Prerequisites: Martial Feat level 3rd, Power Attack
Benefit: When you attack a foe, you may make an additional attack at the same attack bonus against another adjacent foe. If your attack drops your first target below 0 hit points, the second attack deals double damage.
Special: Choose a new feat you have the prerequisites for. Replace Power Attack with that feat. You gain Power Attack as a bonus feat.

Great Cleave [Martial 5, Combat Technique, Fighter]
Prerequisites: Martial Feat level 5th, Cleave, Power Attack
Benefit: When you attack a foe, you may make two additional attacks at the same attack bonus against two other adjacent foes. If your attack drops your first target below 0 hit points, the subsequent attacks deals triple damage. If your attack drops both your first and second targets below 0 hit points, the third attack deals quintuple damage.
Special: Choose a new feat you have the prerequisites for. Replace Cleave with that feat. You gain Cleave as a bonus feat (do not apply the Special clause a second time).

What this does is removes most of the penalty for working up a feat chain, as each time you reach a new level the older, now fairly obsolete level is replaced with a new feat, while still giving you the benefits. The Fighter's bonus feats now count for a LOT more, as each one can represent at least two constantly improving feats.

Roderick_BR
2010-01-13, 12:31 PM
Warning, rant ahead

The linear fighter, quadratic wizard issue works like this:

Fighter gains:
1. High hit dice: Many others have. At high level games, many creatures have an ungodly high strength, or special attacks that just deal too much damage anyway, or just have a power that kills/defeat you without even dealing damage.
2. High bonus to hit: At lower levels you kill goblins left and right. At higher levels many monster either have too much HP to go through them before getting a fulminating counter-attack, or have ACs so high, you'll only score one hit every round, if you are lucky.
3. High mundane defense: At lower levels, you are the tank. At higher levels, monster have high enough numbers to hit you anyway, and you need a lot of magical aid (like anyone else) to avoid being hit, since touch AC and no-need-to-hit attacks are common.
4. Bonus feats: You have a little more feats at low levels. At mid levels and onward, very few feats (that you gain every 2 levels), is good enough to replace class features, and even the "fighter only" feats just add a little smallish bonus to your to-hit and damage. Bonus that everyone else got many levels ago, and way better ones.
5. Combat prowess: As I said in the feats part: Each feat you have traps you to a path (save retraining), and either makes you a one trick pony, or gives you a lot of useless abilities.

Wizards gets?
1. Low HP: At low levels, you are squshy, but at medium-high levels, you have so many defenses that you are actually more likely to came out walking from a battle than the fighter. Also, casting far away from the monsters with pointy teeth.
2. Low bonus to hit: You don't care. You can cast spells that don't require attacks, or use touch attacks, or the dozens of ways to gain a bonus to hit (with True Strike being the obvious first one)
3. Low mundane desense: Again, you are squishy, but quickly grows almost impossible to be reached.
4. Bonus feats: Wizards can use some feats, but their power lies in their spells. More later.
5. Combat prowess: Ok, here's the problem. While you build your fighter as you level up, a wizard is built every day. While your low level fighter gains 1 feat, your low level wizard gains a spell level, meaning that he can choose from a large array of options, one stronger than the other. Granted, they are limited in use, but unless the DM throws encounter after encounter, a wizard will hold his own.
Example: The 1st level fighter chooses power attack. A wizard adds about eight 1st level spells to his spell book, and memorizes 2. One of them, Sleep, will put down half the enemy group, while the fighter is struggling to fell one single enemy.
As they increase in level, *some* feats will increase it's benefits. The wizard, however, gets almost all his spells increased in power (spell effects based on caster level), gains more uses of said spells, and as if it were not good enough, he gains EVEN MORE spells, and these spells are high level spell, far more powerful than his old spells.
Add to it that the majority of spells are, in my opinion, too powerful for their given level. Heck, there's some spells I thing shouldn't be given before reaching epic level!

So, there's the problem. Filling the fighter with more useless feats won't fix it.

Now, let's take a look at the dreaded Tome of Battle:
It gives dozens of class features. Flavourful and useful ones too (like making your counter attacks benefit from high inteligence)
Then it gets the maneuvers: Like wizards, your new meeler doesn't get a "pick an ability". It days "here's a list of 1st level abilities. Pick a handful of them, and choose what you'll use everyday".
That, alone, makes the ToB meelers better than the fighter. But there's more. When they level up, they not only can learn/"memorize" more powers, but they gain access to higher level ones! So, at 5th level, your warblade gains access to 3rd level maneuvers, that are better than 2nd and 1st level ones. You are not getting just another feat with power about the same power as the last one you got (and a fighter would need to wait till 6th level anyway).
So, ToB makes his meelers quadratic. Way less than wizards, but I think that's not a bad balance.
Then there's the peopel that complain it is too asian. Bull. Just rename it as European fighting styles. Yes, they exist, look it up.
And there's the whole "wuxia" thing that people seem to dislike.

I ask: Why? The "wuxia" is about making ridiculous physical acts. And that IS what a D&D fighter should be at higher levels.
Yeah, you can jump around, bounce off things, open someone's head with a sword, then grit your teeth and "block the orc's axe with your abs". Wait, I forgot, fightes can't have nice things, unless they are using magic, right?
Ok, give him boots of walking and springing, a ring of jumping, a +5 shocking icy electric weapon and a +5 full plate with DR 10/magic. Ah, NOW he can do all that? Ok.
Now, I admit some effects are a bit too much, like healing people by showing off how well you fight, or making fire showing off in the air because "you feel very hot". But the rest are just powered up feats. I don't understand why people dislike it so much.
Apparently, saying "with a running start, I jump over to the troll, and slash at him with both my swords" is wrong because you used a maneuver to do that jump as a swift action because otherwise, you wouldn't be able to attack with two weapons a distant enemy, that is within walking distance, because with the core rules, a fighter can't walk and use two weapons at once. I imagine he can't chew gum at the same time either.
Seriously, what you think a fighter should be able at frigging level 20?! Swing a sword? That's not a class feature, that's something any class can do. Know several diferent fight styles? If each style is weak at 20th level, what makes you think I want several weak styles at 20th level? I mean, try it, play a 20th level wizard with access to only 3rd level spells. Someone could pull it off using the high level slots to use metamagiced spells, but would be too much work for little gain, and not even half as effective as normal wizard with normal 9th level spells.

Why do E6 works? Because it stops at 6th level, when a figther is still useful, keeps gainging the same feats over and over, and wizard don't get high level spells, being forced to actually work instead of relying on Win Button spells.


Finally... a lot of fighter fix out there simply gives fighters non-at-will abilities, pretty much the same thing as maneuvers. It can be useable once a combat, once a day, with "fighter power points". Whatever. It's the same, only slightly different mechanics and different names.

TLDR: Find ways to fill the emptyness in the fighter's table, and give him abilities that are meaningful at high levels, so it's worth playing a full fighter.

Sorry for the long rant, btw XD

Shpadoinkle
2010-01-13, 03:32 PM
I don't understand why people dislike (ToB) so much.

Because it gives fighters nice things, and, as you said yourself, fighters are not allowed to have nice things. Unless the wizard gives them to him, evidently.

lesser_minion
2010-01-13, 04:05 PM
If you want your fighters to be halfway worthwhile, just give them magic. If it's subtle enough, you can even pretend it's not there if non-mundane fighters really bother you so much.

What you shouldn't do is assume that "mundanes can't have nice things" translates to "fighters shouldn't have nice things". It doesn't. It translates to "nobody with a PC class should be a mundane".


I ask: Why? The "wuxia" is about making ridiculous physical acts. And that IS what a D&D fighter should be at higher levels.
Yeah, you can jump around, bounce off things, open someone's head with a sword, then grit your teeth and "block the orc's axe with your abs". Wait, I forgot, fightes can't have nice things, unless they are using magic, right?

Just give fighters magic. That's basically what ToB does, although then they write a load of fluff about how this magic isn't really magic for some reason.

The problem is that the design is basically taking the worst of the D&D magic system and handing it to fighters.

Oslecamo
2010-01-14, 07:44 AM
Feats are reworked to be at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19 (when new spells would be unlocked). Fighters also get feats every even level, and a bonus feat at 1st.

Feats become something like this:

Cleave [Martial 3, Combat Technique, Fighter]
Prerequisites: Martial Feat level 3rd, Power Attack
Benefit: When you attack a foe, you may make an additional attack at the same attack bonus against another adjacent foe. If your attack drops your first target below 0 hit points, the second attack deals double damage.
Special: Choose a new feat you have the prerequisites for. Replace Power Attack with that feat. You gain Power Attack as a bonus feat.

Great Cleave [Martial 5, Combat Technique, Fighter]
Prerequisites: Martial Feat level 5th, Cleave, Power Attack
Benefit: When you attack a foe, you may make two additional attacks at the same attack bonus against two other adjacent foes. If your attack drops your first target below 0 hit points, the subsequent attacks deals triple damage. If your attack drops both your first and second targets below 0 hit points, the third attack deals quintuple damage.
Special: Choose a new feat you have the prerequisites for. Replace Cleave with that feat. You gain Cleave as a bonus feat (do not apply the Special clause a second time).

What this does is removes most of the penalty for working up a feat chain, as each time you reach a new level the older, now fairly obsolete level is replaced with a new feat, while still giving you the benefits. The Fighter's bonus feats now count for a LOT more, as each one can represent at least two constantly improving feats.

This idea looks very nice in my opinion, but from my experience you'll atract the whole "Nonmartial dudes can't have nice things!" crowd. This is, I once tried to do an alternate fighter with spell-level abilities, and I got a flaming rain of hate.

Here it is:


Badass normal
A sword may not be able to destroy a world, but it can certainly destroy you.-Jake, badass normal

Some people are born with exceptional talent, and use it to stand out in the crowd, performing great deeds that others would think impossible. Others are not so lucky as to be born with special talents, and everybody would expect for them to stay average for all their lifes. But some of those "normal" people will not bow to such destiny. Trough intense training, hard work, and sheer stubborness, they rise against their destinies and carve their own path among those lucky enough to have been blessed by life. Having to always start from below and all the way to the top, badass normals end up understanding combat better than anyone else, as they experience it on all their forms.

Adventures: Badass normals adventure to develop their own skills and prove their worth to the world-and themselves. Depending on their alignment, they may take any job that they think will allow them to test and improve their own skills. The path taken is as important as the destiny, and badass normals like both hard. He would join a military group if conflict was asssured or if he had the chance to train with other powerfull warriors, but he wouldn't acept a well paid position to patrol a peacefull kingdom. Thus, badass normals are renowed for their loyalty, as they don't see much sense in taking an "easy" shortcut by cheating those with who he works for.

Characteristics: Badass normals are powerfull warriors, fully dedicated to the fight. They may be unable to perform shiny special attacks like seting their blades on fire, but their weapons still hit pretty hard. Hard constant training and learning allows them perform most basic martial feats better than anyone else, and a life of hardships ends up making them much tougher than anyone would expect for a normal mortal. Just like a barbarian channels his own rage to crush his oponents into pulp, a badass normal channels his own stubborness to keep him going trough pretty much anything.


Alignment: Badass normals tend more to the lawfull side, as good discipline greatly helps training, but chaotic badass normals aren't unheard off. As long as one is willing to work hard, he can take the path of the badass normal. Badass normals are evenly distributed on the good-evil axis. Some seek to use their skills to correct the wrongs in the world, some just seek to improve themelves, and some simply seek to crush and humiliate all those who cross his path.

Religion:Badass normals aren't very religious. They weren't blessed by life, so they don't see a lot of reasons to worship gods more than basic rituals. They also don't see much sense in praying and ceremonies to request the god's blessings, when they could be training. Still, they fully aknowledge the gods give out blessings to some lucky bastards. They just tend to try to avoid religious discussions, and will happilly agree with whatever they're told as long as they can then move on to pratical matters.

The most religious badass normals follow the motto of "The gods help those who help themselves", and will fervently defend their god's causes, depending on their alignment and preferences.

Background:Badass normals can appear from pretty much anywhere. Some are born poor people who worked all their way up from nothing. Others are rich bastards wich one would think would grow up to become fat rich aristrocats, but instead developed a taste for martial training. Most badass normals will have joined some kind of military/martial order to learn the basics. Some still will have been forced trough this path, fighting several years in an arena or forced into an army, untill escaping or earning their freedom. Thus, badass normals share no organization of their own, and it's much more common to seem them join other groups, once they prove their worth.

Races:Most badass normals come from humans, wich are known for their great stubborness and will to improve. Dwarves, who know the value of hard work very well, also acount for a great number of badass normals. Less hotblooded orcs and half-orcs who still seek a martial life will take this path also. Sometimes elves become badass normals, taking advantage of their long existence to refine combat to it's finest form, in particular archery and fencing.

Other classes:Badass normals give themselves better with individuals of classes who are more based on hard work. They apreciate a barbarian's full embrace of his own nature, the ranger's dedication to a single path, or a monk's unarmed training. Badass normals are suspect of divine and spontaneous casters. Can you really trust a power wich you didn't get by yourself? They however have respect for wizards, wich get their abilities from hard extenous study of books.

Role: Badass normals are martial specialists, in particular in the frontline, keeping the enemy under constant threat from their blades, altough many badass normals know how to provide ranged support in combat as well.


HD:D10
{TABLE]Level | BAB | Fort | Reflex | Will | Features
1| 1|+2 |+2 |+2 |Bonus feat
2| 2| +3|+3 |+3 | Bonus feat
3| 3| +3|+3 | +3|
4|4 | +4| +4| +4|Bonus feat
5|5 | +4|+4 |+4 |
6| 6/+1| +5|+5 |+5 |Bonus feat
7|7/+2 | +5|+5 |+5 |
8| 8/+3| +6| +6|+6 |Bonus feat
9| 9/+4| +6| +6| +6|
10| 10/+5| +7|+7 |+7 |Bonus feat
11| 11/+6/+1| +7|+7 |+7 |Badassery
12| 12/+7/+2| +8|+8 |+8 |Bonus feat
13| 13/+8/+3| +8| +8| +8|Badassery
14| 14/+9/+4| +9|+9 |+9 |Bonus feat
15| 15/+10/+5|+9 | +9| +9|Badassery
16| 16/+11/+6/+1| +10|+10 |+10 |Bonus feat
17|17/+12/+7/+2 | +10| +10| +10|Badassery
18| 18/+13/+8/+3| +11|+11 |+11 |Bonus feat
19| 19/+14/+9/+4| +11| +11|+11 |Badassery
20| 20/+15/+10/+5|+12 | +12| +12|Bonus feat, True badass

[/TABLE]
Skills, age and starting gold as normal fighter.



Class features:

Bonus feats As fighter, but the badass normal knows how to pull more weight from his feats. All feats received as bonus feats from the badass normal are improved in the following ways:

Blindsight:Applies to ranged attacks as well.


Weapon focus, Weapon specialization and all it's cousins(weapon supremacy, ect): now apply to all weapons the fighter is proefecient with, not just one per feat.



Cleave:If you hit an enemy in melee, you may automatically attack another adjacent enemy, whetever the first enemy drops or not. If you hit a mirror image, you may make a new attack as well. If you hit an enemy with a ranged thrown weapon, you may make a new attack again against other enemy behind the first target, with the same weapon.

Either in melee or ranged, you can't get more tha one extra attack for each "normal" attack you make.


Great cleave:Whenever you make a melee attack, you may attack up to X oponents whitin your reach, where X is half your str bonus. This doesn't trigger normal cleave.

Great fortitude: You may add +2 or your Str modifier to your fort saves, wichever is higher.

Iron Will:You may add +2 or your Con modifier to your will saves, wichever is higher.

Lighting reflexes: You may add +2 or your Con modifier to your reflex saves, wichever is higher.


Point blanck shot:You can fire in melee whitout provoking attacks of oportunity, and fire while grappled with a -4 penalty, plus the normal bonus.

Precise shot:You may add half your Dex bonus to ranged attack damage rolls if you're using a single handed ranged/thrown weapon, and your full Dex bonus if you're using a two handed ranged weapon. If you do, don't add any Str bonus to the attack.


Improved precise shot:You may add your full Dex bonus to ranged attack damage rolls if you're using a single handed ranged/thrown weapon, and 1,5 times your full Dex bonus if you're using a two handed ranged weapon. If you do, don't add any Str bonus to the attack.

Improved trip:Add +4 or half your badass normal level to all your trip atempts, wichever is higher.

Improved grapple:Add +4 or half your badass normal level to all your grapple atempts, wichever is higher.

Improved sunder:Whenever you hit an enemy, you can automatically make a sunder atempt at any object held by him (maximum of one sunder per round on each oponent). You can also sunder natural weapons and armor. If you have a magic weapon, you can sunder magic effects (works as a targeted Greater dispell magic, CL=Badass level). You can't cleave, great cleave or spring attack and get the extra sunders at the same time.


Dodge:Applies against all attacks. You get +1, or 1/4 of your badass normal level, wichever is higher.

Mobility:At the begginning of his turn, if you are affected by any effect that hinders your movement, you may save again against it. If you suceed you can ignore that effect for 1 round. If the effect didn't allow a save, then the save is 10+1/2 the HD of the creator+it's highest stat.

Spring attack:You may make one attack against every enemy you pass by, or make a full attack at the end of your movement. You can't cleave or great cleave while spring attacking.

Improved unarmed strike You add 1,5 times your str modifier to unarmed attacks, and can make sunder atempts with them.

Deflect arrows: You can deflect projectiles of any kind. If you have a magic weapon, you can deflect spells, rays and ranged touch effects targeted at you. The first attack each turn is deflected automaticaly, then you may attempt to deflect new ones if you suceed on a reflex save with DC=attack bonus of the ranged attack. Each save beyond the first takes a cumulative penalty of -5.


Combat reflexes:You don't need to be aware of the attacker. Your insticts allow you to make aoos every time an enemy in reach provokes. You also are never considered flat footed and may always act on a suprise round.

Weapon finesse: You may replace your Str modifier for your Dex modifier in melee damage rolls.

Improved critical:You can score critical hits on creatures normally invulnerable to crirical hits such as undeads and constructs, but against such creatures your critical threat range is considered normal. For example, if you took improved critical:longsword, you would threaten a critical in a 17-20 against normal creatures and on a 19-20 against critical-immune creatures.

Whirlwind attack:May be done as a standard action, and ignores concealment. Doesn't trigger cleave.

Quick draw:When you draw a melee weapon, you may add your iniative modifier to your bonus to hit and damage rolls for the first attack you make in that round.

Improved iniative:You may add your str bonus on top of your Dex bonus to your iniative.

Improved feint:You may use your Str or Dex modifier in place of your Cha modifier in bluff checks to feint in combat.

Stunning fist:You may use your str modifier instead of your wis modifier on the damage, and you may use this ability with any melee weapon you are proefecient with, in wich case you can call this feat "Stunning blow".

More feats to come.


Badassery:At 11th level, and every other level from then, the badass normal may take one badassery from the following list:


Badass armor: After thousands of hours of wearing armor, it has become literally a second skin for you. The badass normal's move speed ins't reduced by wearing heavy armor, and the max dex bonus to AC of any armor he wears is increased by his Con bonus. The badass normal also gains Dr X/-, where X is 1/4 of his armor bonus+ his full shield bonus. The badass normal also counts as wearing light armor while wearing medium/heavy armor when it would be benefetical for him.


Badass range:After countless battles, you learned how to use quick steps and lunges to threaten a large area. The badass normal reach with all weapons is increased:
lv10:+5 feets
lv15:+10 feets.
lv20:+15 feets.

In adition, all thrown weapons used by the badass normal have their range doubled.


Badass attack: The badass normal attacks faster than anyone. He may make a full attack as a standard action. If he full attacks whitout moving, he applies his full BAB to all attacks.

Badass resistance:The badass normal's body has grown specially tough after several hardships. He gains resistance X to all forms of energy, where X is his badass level, rounded down. He also gains resistance X/2 to all force effect, rounded down. He can also try to resist any effect that wouldn't normally allow a save as if it allowed a save. The DC is 10+half HD of the attacker+his highest stat modifier.

If he suceeds by 5 or less, he ignores the effect, but takes a -X penalty to all d20 rolls for 5 rounds (cumulative), where X is half the HD of the attacker. If he suceeds between 5 or 10, he takes no penalty, and if he suceeds by 10 or more, then he gains a X bonus to all his d20 rolls for 1 round, as he surges forward with renewed confidence.

Badass movement:Your tough training finally pays off, greatly increasing your stamina. The badass normal gains a bonus on all his movement speeds equal to 5xCon modifier. He can also climb and swim at half his now improved land speed. Notice that this bonus applies to any fly speed the badass normal fighter gets.

Badass threat: After years of struggling, you know better how to make other struggle. If a creature threatened by the badass normal tries to take a defensive action (like defensive casting), then the DC of suceeding is increased by the badass normal class level. The DC for tumbling past the badass normal is also increased by his class level.

In addition, flying enemies hit by your attacks drop 1 feet by point of damage taken from your attacks.


Badass experience:Some badasses discover hidden talent, and choose a new path in life, but they still keep some of their old training habits. If you multiclass, your new levels count for all your badass normal feats and badasseries you had already gained, but you don't receive any more badasseries or bonus feats.


Badass leader: Your might atracts an army of loyal minions. This works as leadership, but only atracts followers and uses Str instead of Cha. They are the race and NPC class of your choice, altough the DM may impose limitations depending on the setting. You may automaticaly organize your minions as a mob (http://www.giantitp.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129179) whitout bothering with the pre requisites. Killed followers are automatically replaced every time you visit any location with a large humanoid population.


Badass legend: Years of training allow you to quickly adapt to any situation. A number of times per day equal to your highest physical score modifier(Con, Str or Dex), you may gain any feat you qualify for as an immediate action. This extra feat lasts for 1 round. You can't activate this ability again while you have an extra feat "active".


Badass breacktrough:Nothing can stand in your way. You take down walls as you charge, magic or not, and dig your way trough fortresses if needed. Only the mightiest beasts may hope to even slow you down. When you charge, if there's an inanimate obstacle in front of you, you may make an attack as a free action against the obstacle. If you deal enough damage to destroy it, you can keep charging as if the obstacle wasn't there. If it is a magic effect (even a wall of force), and you have the improved sunder feat and are wielding a magic weapon, you may atempt to greater dispell the magic effect. Force effects can be dispelled, but the DC is +4 than normal. Your CL is equal to your Badass Normal level. If you have any bonus to sunder atempts, this bonus applies to your GDM CL.



True badass:You become a living embodiment of martial skill. You may take 20 on any d20 roll a number of times per day equal to your str modifier.

And the original thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7622011)

lesser_minion:I'm also somewhat forced to agree with this. If we consider magic=breaking reality, then yes, every class should have "magic".

Random_person
2010-01-14, 02:29 PM
Absolutely. But more along the lines of a Charles Atlas Superpower or ten, and Just That Good elements even at lower levels. Nothing overtly magical, unless you want it to be.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-01-14, 02:34 PM
Absolutely. But more along the lines of a Charles Atlas Superpower or ten, and Just That Good elements even at lower levels. Nothing overtly magical, unless you want it to be.

The problem is that the line is so fine...

For example:

Mountain Shaking Critical
When you strike your foes, the blow rattles through the earth itself.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +15, Power Attack, Power Critical, Weapon Focus (any Bludgeoning weapon).
Benefit: Whenever you threaten a critical hit with a bludgeoning weapon you are proficient with, all opponents within thirty feet must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your Character Level + your Strength modifier) or be knocked prone and stunned for 1 round. If you confirm the critical hit, the stun duration increases to 1d4 rounds for all foes who failed their saves.

So...Just That Good, or Magic? Tough call...

lesser_minion
2010-01-14, 02:57 PM
The problem is that the line is so fine...

For example:

Mountain Shaking Critical
When you strike your foes, the blow rattles through the earth itself.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +15, Power Attack, Power Critical, Weapon Focus (any Bludgeoning weapon).
Benefit: Whenever you threaten a critical hit with a bludgeoning weapon you are proficient with, all opponents within thirty feet must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your Character Level + your Strength modifier) or be knocked prone and stunned for 1 round. If you confirm the critical hit, the stun duration increases to 1d4 rounds for all foes who failed their saves.

So...Just That Good, or Magic? Tough call...

I'd probably call it magic.

I can see what you're saying though.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-01-14, 02:59 PM
I'd probably call it magic.

I can see what you're saying though.

See, I'd call that perfectly acceptable Just That Good high level fighter area control. Hence the problem.

lesser_minion
2010-01-14, 03:00 PM
See, I'd call that perfectly acceptable Just That Good high level fighter area control. Hence the problem.

You're hitting the ground so hard you cause a mild earthquake. If I saw it in a film, I'd probably tolerate it under RoC, but if I had to rationalise it in a roleplaying game I'd head straight for "instinctive magic".

You're pushing the human body far beyond its normal limits. Feel free to do so, but I'm not about to accept a physical explanation for it.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-01-14, 03:08 PM
You're pushing the human body far beyond its normal limits. Feel free to do so, but I'm not about to accept a physical explanation for it.

What about the Rogue's ability to stand in a 10x10 foot empty, featureless room, and still avoid all the damage from firing a meteor swarm right next to him? The Ranger's ability to run full tilt through a field covered in thorns without stopping or slowing? The Ranger's ability to blend seemlessly into a featureless hillside despite being under close scrutiny by 15 guards?

Don't those also suffer from the same thing? If they do, then how can we say the Fighter should be the only non-magical class to be constrained by normal physical laws?

Oslecamo
2010-01-14, 03:37 PM
Don't those also suffer from the same thing? If they do, then how can we say the Fighter should be the only non-magical class to be constrained by normal physical laws?

Minor nitpick, but the ranger is half-magic, technically speaking.

The rogue evades everything has become a running gag, yet nobody actually has come up with a non-magical explanation for it.

On the other hand, coming out of an huge explosion whitout a scratch is an overused thing in pretty much every action movie, regardless of the person being magic or not.

lesser_minion
2010-01-14, 03:41 PM
What about the Rogue's ability to stand in a 10x10 foot empty, featureless room, and still avoid all the damage from firing a meteor swarm right next to him? The Ranger's ability to run full tilt through a field covered in thorns without stopping or slowing? The Ranger's ability to blend seemlessly into a featureless hillside despite being under close scrutiny by 15 guards?

Don't those also suffer from the same thing? If they do, then how can we say the Fighter should be the only non-magical class to be constrained by normal physical laws?

Those are basically magical abilities as well.

Evasion is a bit weird, but the rules for half damage from area effects imply that what's actually happening is that the character shields themselves somehow. As long as your character has a magic cloak or something similar on hand, it isn't really a problem, and most rogues who don't weren't going to save against that meteor swarm anyway.

However, I consider every PC class to be at least quasi-magical, even if they aren't a full-blown magic user.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-01-14, 03:41 PM
Minor nitpick, but the ranger is half-magic, technically speaking.

Spell-less Ranger still has those features.


The rogue evades everything has become a running gag, yet nobody actually has come up with a non-magical explanation for it.

On the other hand, coming out of an huge explosion whitout a scratch is an overused thing in pretty much every action movie, regardless of the person being magic or not.

So if it's a trope, it's allowed past the rules? Seems we're just making a case against the poor fighter now, as he has no tropes to fall back on...

Why can't he have nice things without being labeled magic?

lesser_minion
2010-01-14, 03:43 PM
Why can't he have nice things without being labeled magic?

Why does he need them?

I'm not suggesting giving fighters a tonne of overtly magical stuff here. At worst, something comparable to Celerity from V:tR. Maybe even something comparable to some of the Auspex powers.

Lord_Gareth
2010-01-14, 03:45 PM
Calm Thyself, O Bottled One - remember that, when we get rolling on it and finish, we will address these martial complaints in the Paradigm Project. Belief is power ^_^

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-01-14, 03:49 PM
Calm Thyself, O Bottled One - remember that, when we get rolling on it and finish, we will address these martial complaints in the Paradigm Project. Belief is power ^_^

I know. I'm also quite calm...I'm just in debate mode. :smallbiggrin:


Why does he need them?

Because, as I said at the beginning of this thread, the Fighter suffers from a lack of options in combat and out of combat aside from "beat up one guy with hit point damage." This thread was addressing the issue of the Wizard being quadratic and the Fighter being linear. We can't address that issue without giving the Fighter more options and more methods of attacking, and that's hard to do without adding abilities that seem supernatural.

Decent area control, for example. How would you do that? If the Wizard can go into front-line combat (and it can), the Fighter should have some area control effects and some buffing/debuffing effects. What would you suggest instead?

lesser_minion
2010-01-14, 03:56 PM
I know. I'm also quite calm...I'm just in debate mode. :smallbiggrin:



Because, as I said at the beginning of this thread, the Fighter suffers from a lack of options in combat and out of combat aside from "beat up one guy with hit point damage." This thread was addressing the issue of the Wizard being quadratic and the Fighter being linear. We can't address that issue without giving the Fighter more options and more methods of attacking, and that's hard to do without adding abilities that seem supernatural.

Decent area control, for example. How would you do that? If the Wizard can go into front-line combat (and it can), the Fighter should have some area control effects and some buffing/debuffing effects. What would you suggest instead?

But the point is that you can just give the fighter nice things and call them out as being a kind of magic.

I'm not arguing against giving fighters nice things, I'm arguing against pretending that magic isn't magic.

"Magic exists" is even a part of the laws of physics as far as we're concerned.

If the abilities are selectable, we can even go beyond the D&D equivalent of Celerity ••••• and Auspex •• and hand them a couple of overtly supernatural abilities to cover your area control and so on.

Random_person
2010-01-14, 03:57 PM
So what I'm seeing here is that one group wants to give the fighter better, nigh magical abilities and call it Just That Good, and one wants to go the extra step and give the fighter magical abilities. So we agree on mechanics but not fluff. I suggest that we drop the fluff debate and try to work out some mechanics: at this point, any fighter fix is going to end up with two lots of fluff or be rejected by at least half the playground.

lesser_minion
2010-01-14, 04:12 PM
So what I'm seeing here is that one group wants to give the fighter better, nigh magical abilities and call it Just That Good, and one wants to go the extra step and give the fighter magical abilities. So we agree on mechanics but not fluff. I suggest that we drop the fluff debate and try to work out some mechanics: at this point, any fighter fix is going to end up with two lots of fluff or be rejected by at least half the playground.

Well, my suggestion was to hand the fighter mostly magical abilities that you could think of being "just that good" if you felt that it made sense, with a few things that are more obviously related to magic. That way, you're free to re-fluff the things you don't think should be considered magical.

For example, you might be able to sneak a "just that good" explanation for most of the following powers and abilities from non-d20 sources:


Witchcraft:

Invocations:
- Affect the psyche (speeches, just being awesome)
- Insight (you're just that amazing at reading people)
- Lesser Healing (you're just that hard)
- Shielding (you instinctively close your mind to magic, or you're just that hard)
- Symbols of Protection (so you're superstitious. Cool.)

Seer Powers:
- Mindheal (you're just that hard, or you somehow know instinctively which of your organs you just lost)
- Mindsight (you happen to be really good at reading people)
- Mindtime (that sort of thing probably happens on its own in the setting anyway)
- Mindview (likewise)

Necromancy:
- Death Sight [Death Mastery 2] - Finely-honed instincts.
- Glimpse the Dead [Death Speech 1] - the same
- See the Dead [Death Speech 2] - the same

Divine Inspiration:
- The Denial (you glare really hard at magic and it breaks)
- Divine Sight (finely-honed instincts)
- Strength of Ten (you are just that hard)


Geist: the Sin-Eaters


The Caul (Passion, or Phantasmal)
The Curse (Passion, Grave-Dirt*, Stigmata, or Stillness**)
The Oracle (Industrial, Passion, Phantasmal, Primeval, or Stillness)
The Rage (Passion, Stigmata, Industrial, or Stillness)
The Shroud (Industrial, or Passion)


* OK, I'm not sure how you can hit someone so they can't sleep for an extended period of time, but I guess some people might find it reasonable.

** More, you humiliate them badly in a public place rather than curse them.


Hunter: the Vigil


Endowments:

- Benedictions: Armour of St. Martin (through being just that hard), Epipodian Safeguard (by being that hard), Fortitude of St. George (*flex*), True Sight of St. Abel (in D&D, you could have an impassioned speech or something similar work)

- Castigations: Gaze of the Penitent (more suitable for paladins though), Sense of the Unrighteous (through finely-honed instincts), Tongue of Babel (Probably too supernatural, but I could see it working with the right fluff)

- Thaumatechnology: Anger Patch (your character could just be pretty sensitive), Quick-Step, Twitcher, Regenerative Nodule (by just being that hard, although I'd suggest changing the drawback for D&D), Banality Worm.

Tactics:

Most of them. Bashing a vampire's teeth in with a baseball bat is not that much less effective in D&D than it is in WoD.

Dread Powers:
- Agonise (although this would be more "I punch you in the gut" than "I cause pain just by looking at you")
- Confuse (the same)
- Crushing Blow (would need to be buffed)
- Dement (possible by mundane means)
- Fury (more a barbarian thing)
- Gremlinize (smacking something pretty hard with a baseball bat)
- Impress
- Sleep (some kind of amazingly non-lethal strike)
- Terrify (again)

Oslecamo
2010-01-14, 04:28 PM
Decent area control, for example. How would you do that? If the Wizard can go into front-line combat (and it can), the Fighter should have some area control effects and some buffing/debuffing effects. What would you suggest instead?

1-A really big sword and/or wind cutter style moves.

2-Minions. One idea that always wandered around my head is that a fighter should atract minions out of the land that follow him because he's awesome. From there we could work several kinds of stuff, like making the fighter and his minions count as a single mighty creature for ease of play, or spread them around the battlefield to provide area effects, just like spells, but instead of magic you got dudes following the fighter's orders! Nick fury much?

Morty
2010-01-14, 05:01 PM
*stays away from the ToB discussion that is identical to dozens of previous ones*
As far as fighter fixes go, I quite like the Ultimate Fighter (http://www.liquidmateria.info/wiki/Ultimate_Fighter) by Szatany. It shows a bit more modest approach, but it nonetheless gives the fighter a number of neat abilities. Of course, it's a part of the Ultimate Classes project, in which the casting classes get nerfed.

lesser_minion
2010-01-14, 06:15 PM
Calm Thyself, O Bottled One - remember that, when we get rolling on it and finish, we will address these martial complaints in the Paradigm Project. Belief is power ^_^

*Eagerly anticipates*

Is there anything in particular that you're stuck on?

Lord_Gareth
2010-01-15, 10:28 AM
Good gods, what aren't we stuck on? Building a system is hard work, and it doesn't help that my build team keeps running face-first into Real Life (patent pending).

The specific list:

- Ritualists need their class features rebalanced (what were we smoking?) and remade to comply with OGL.
- We need to finish the actual list of rituals.
- The Channeler (or Nexus, depending on where Djinn goes with it) paradigm is still under construction.
- Technomancers, full-stop.
- We haven't even started on "non-caster" classes yet, and I am, frankly, considering giving all classes something which might be equated to "spells", modified only by their dominant Paradigm. No one's really discussed it yet, because no one's been around to discuss with.

You can find the most recent versions of everything on the Paradigm Project here (http://plothook.net/RPG/forumdisplay.php?f=1477)

Oslecamo
2010-01-15, 10:48 AM
- Technomancers, full-stop.

Wait, you want to redo the magic system, still haven't touched non-magic classes, and want to do some steampunk class?

Are you sure you're not smoking something right now? I would say to start with the basics, and then work your way up from there.



- We haven't even started on "non-caster" classes yet, and I am, frankly, considering giving all classes something which might be equated to "spells", modified only by their dominant Paradigm. No one's really discussed it yet, because no one's been around to discuss with.


You probably would do best do so. The basic PHB also has a single magic system, with each class casting in a shligtly diferent way. Leave psionics and incarnum and truenaming and whatever for later.(altough personally I like the vancian system, it's just classes that can get any and all spells known that really push stuff too much. Beguiller, warmage, dread necro are hardly insane.)

Lord_Gareth
2010-01-15, 10:52 AM
Oslecamo, you appear to misunderstand:

The Paradigm Project has evolved from a rework of the magic system to a full-blown D20 system project of its own, complete with its own fluff, basic assumptions about reality, et cetera. Technomancers are a "spellcasting" class, and the only reason we haven't started work on "non-casters" is because we want to finish the material we've already started. We are not fixing the current classes. We are replacing them.

That said, if you'd like to help, you're more than welcome to! Like I've said before, we need Rituals. Lots of Rituals.

lesser_minion
2010-01-15, 12:37 PM
Or a decent set of guidelines for designing your own rituals.

I'm not sure if it's really as incompatible with D&D as it might appear. Ars Magica has basically run on the d20 system since the dawn of time (apart from it actually being d10-based).

It's also widely acknowledged as having the best magic system, bar none (despite the occasional idiotic flaw).


Just a question though: what is it about ritualists that doesn't comply with the OGL?

Lord_Gareth
2010-01-15, 12:40 PM
To answer your OGL question:

- Certain fluff references to planes which may or may not end up being used/existing.

- The Martyr capstone ability (see the Sacred Watcher template, Book of Exalted Deeds).

Getting a set of guidelines together for making your own rituals has consistently lead into an iron wall. It's become the decision of the build team to finish a list of rituals/the rest of the project, THEN try to tackle giving DMs/Players advice on how to create their own.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-01-15, 01:03 PM
- We haven't even started on "non-caster" classes yet, and I am, frankly, considering giving all classes something which might be equated to "spells", modified only by their dominant Paradigm. No one's really discussed it yet, because no one's been around to discuss with.

Actually, we must have discussed it via our apparent "SameBrainNet (tm)." Because I've been mulling over how to convert everything to a single modular system that keeps a consistent mechanic, yet modifies it to be the same and yet different based on the Paradigm chosen.

lesser_minion
2010-01-15, 01:43 PM
Would it be worth whacking together another thread here or a Google Group to discuss this?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-01-15, 01:44 PM
Would it be worth whacking together another thread here or a Google Group to discuss this?

I have a great love of formatting options, and thus hate Google Groups. Perhaps Gareth should throw us up a thread? :smallbiggrin:

lesser_minion
2010-01-15, 02:03 PM
Has Fax set your wiki account up?

You can always use formatting options with talk pages.

There's also the option to create and edit pages, once they actually manage proper web browser support.

And finally, I could just whack together another blog and make everyone interested in the PP into a contributor.

Google Groups does allow formatted messages to be submitted by e-mail, but the formatting only shows up when the message is viewed as an e-mail, not as part of a discussion, annoyingly.

Yakk
2010-01-15, 02:15 PM
As an example of non-magic zone control by a fighter:

Reactive Actions:
Fighters can store up actions for later use as "reactive action". Each such pool is refreshed by burning a particular kind of action. When refreshed, any actions left in the pool are wasted. Actions may be partially spent from the pool (ie, moving 5', doing a single attack from an iterative attack, etc) freely. When a fighter rolls initiative, they are presumed to have full pools in every reactive pool they possess.

Reactive Movement:
As a move action, a fighter can store up reactive movement equal to his movement score.

Quick Attack:
A fighter may make a full attack action as a standard action.

Reactive Attacks:
As a standard action, a fighter can store up reactive attacks equal to a full attack action.

Reactive 5' step:
The fighter may consume 10' of reactive movement to make a reactive 5' step.

With the above features, a fighter can control a large amount of terrain by reactively positioning themselves in response to any movement or action.

And it isn't very supernatural at all. It is just ridiculously good. The fighter gets to pick when the fighter moves and attacks in your action sequence.

Roderick_BR
2010-01-15, 02:17 PM
(...) We are not fixing the current classes. We are replacing them.(...)
I think that's an amazing idea. Instead of trying to patch errors, re-designing it as they should have been works better. I feel that's the problem with Pathfinder. It's like a huge homebrew classes fix that got printed.

lesser_minion
2010-01-15, 02:20 PM
As an example of non-magic zone control by a fighter:

Reactive Actions:
Fighters can store up actions for later use as "reactive action". Each such pool is refreshed by burning a particular kind of action. When refreshed, any actions left in the pool are wasted. Actions may be partially spent from the pool (ie, moving 5', doing a single attack from an iterative attack, etc) freely. When a fighter rolls initiative, they are presumed to have full pools in every reactive pool they possess.

Reactive Movement:
As a move action, a fighter can store up reactive movement equal to his movement score.

Quick Attack:
A fighter may make a full attack action as a standard action.

Reactive Attacks:
As a standard action, a fighter can store up reactive attacks equal to a full attack action.

Reactive 5' step:
The fighter may consume 10' of reactive movement to make a reactive 5' step.

With the above features, a fighter can control a large amount of terrain by reactively positioning themselves in response to any movement or action.

And it isn't very supernatural at all. It is just ridiculously good. The fighter gets to pick when the fighter moves and attacks in your action sequence.

Parts of that have similarities to the basic combat rules I was thinking of using for Starlight, although I was actually trying to come up with a way to bring back the ability of characters to interpose themselves between a threat and its target.

The difference I had in mind was some revised attack of opportunity rules that are a little nastier.


I think that's an amazing idea. Instead of trying to patch errors, re-designing it as they should have been works better. I feel that's the problem with Pathfinder. It's like a huge homebrew classes fix that got printed.

It's actually the same thing most fixers on these forums are trying to do. Satyr ditched everything and wrote 20 or so completely new classes. Fax is keeping things fairly similar, but is also basically re-writing everything from scratch.

The sorceror still needs a lot of polish, but there are quite a few people trying to help out.

Lord_Gareth
2010-01-15, 02:43 PM
We actually have an entire forum (http://plothook.net/RPG/forumdisplay.php?f=1477) on Plothook.net. However, if you folks really want a thread (or group thereof) on Giant in the Playground, I'll see what I can arrange. For now, I need to log off ^_^

Dante & Vergil
2010-01-15, 02:58 PM
I keep hearing about these projects but I have no idea what they are. Can I get a little help?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-01-15, 03:01 PM
I keep hearing about these projects but I have no idea what they are. Can I get a little help?

Which ones do you want to know about? I know of the following...

The Paradigm Project
G7
d20r
Starlight
A20 (or whatever the current name is)
Pathfinder
The Ultimate Classes
Satyr's work (whatever its name is)

That's it off the top of my head...but there are most likely more.

Dante & Vergil
2010-01-15, 03:30 PM
Which ones do you want to know about? I know of the following...

*The Paradigm Project
*G7
d20r
*Starlight
A20 (or whatever the current name is)
Pathfinder
The Ultimate Classes
*Satyr's work (whatever its name is)

That's it off the top of my head...but there are most likely more.

The ones marked with an asterisk as I already know of the ones that aren't.

Yakk
2010-01-15, 03:39 PM
The difference I had in mind was some revised attack of opportunity rules that are a little nastier.
Sure.

The basic idea is that if you are as mobile as the opponent(s), you should be able to move and interfere with opponents in your movement radius.

Then boost mobility for the fighter, and make them really good at interfering.

You can still trump this with increased mobility via magic (flight, teleport, etc). But if a fighter can move and disrupt spell casting/spell like abilities/etc within the fighter's movement radius, things are a bit better for the fighter.

Naturally, bodyguards of the spellcaster might interfere with the fighter's interference -- or the spellcaster might reactively move away from the fighter's reactive move.

Ie, fighter OAs ending movement (for free) and disrupting spellcasting (even spell like abilities) effectively. So if you provoke within the fighter's move radius, the fighter moves up to you and shuts you down.

Cast a spell, even a swift one? The fighter moves up and attacks. If the attack hits, the spell gets reliably disrupted (or to be nice, just delayed, with the action wasted). Move away (and not a 5' step) and the fighter moves up, hits you, and ends your move action.

If you have a fighter on your side, the first fighter's move provokes the second fighter to move and take an OA, ending that first fighter's move.

This might be moving too far towards 4e for some.

lesser_minion
2010-01-15, 04:02 PM
I keep hearing about these projects but I have no idea what they are. Can I get a little help?

As far as I can tell, the main D&D-related homebrew projects out there at the moment are as follows:


Pathfinder - Designed to allow Paizo to continue publishing adventure paths and the like for 3e, basically.
The Paradigm Project - by Lord_Gareth/Prince of Knives and Djinn_In_Tonic/Gideon. Intended to replace the entire 3e magic system with something more interesting, drawing some of its inspiration from World of Darkness.
G6 - Djinn_in_Tonic's E6 variant.
G7 - G6 revised edition, borrowing a lot more from the 4e rules than its predecessor.
d20 Rebirth - By Fax Celestis. A heavily rebalanced and re-tooled game. Fax intends to write this up and publish it as an alternative to Pathfinder.
Serpents & Sewers - By Satyr. A variant designed to adapt the entire game to a different style, with an emphasis on more heroic characters and less magic.
WAR - By anonymouswizard. A variant designed with a higher level of magic in mind.
FG&G - Like OSRIC, but based on AD&D 2nd edition. Compiled by jmbrown
The Tome Series - A heavily retooled set of rules for advanced players. Not especially serious, and uses a balance point that makes a lot of people uncomfortable. Neither of the authors are actually on these boards, as far as I'm aware.
d20Frog - A low-magic variant, with some more modifications, including an adapted injury system. By Frog Dragon
H20 - Homebrew 20, based on True20 rather than normal D&D. Written by Storming_Marcus
Cellars & Monsters - A variant created by Morty, drawing much of its inspiration from the true versions of WFRP where you didn't have to make six dice rolls to resolve one action.
Prime 20 - 3rd edition modified to be as awesome as possible. Aimed at everyone who wants to play Exalted but wants to do something productive with the effort it would take to actually learn the rules.
Starlight - That would be my baby. Mixes some of my own ideas with material inspired by a few different games.
Sci-fi d20 - A joint effort by Tabletop Nuke and Imp Fireball to create a science-fiction themed version of D&D, explicitly avoiding the use of d20 Modern and Dragonstar
Draz 74 D&D - A heavy shift in the fundamentals of the game, with grittier combat. That's all I know about it, because he doesn't actually do much of the work on the system on these forums.


I'm hoping that covers everything, because that's already a pretty terrifying list.


Ie, fighter OAs ending movement (for free) and disrupting spellcasting (even spell like abilities) effectively. So if you provoke within the fighter's move radius, the fighter moves up to you and shuts you down.

Cast a spell, even a swift one? The fighter moves up and attacks. If the attack hits, the spell gets reliably disrupted (or to be nice, just delayed, with the action wasted). Move away (and not a 5' step) and the fighter moves up, hits you, and ends your move action.

I'm actually getting rid of attacks of opportunity outside of the turn sequence - instead, characters forfeit a fair chunk of their defences when they let their guard down (tautology ftw!) and attackers get another attack.

It's also rather hard to get out of that situation.

Lord_Gareth
2010-01-16, 12:06 PM
So - Do you folks want a series of threads on GitP concerning the Paradigm Project, or do you want to keep all work on Plothook.net?

lesser_minion
2010-01-16, 12:13 PM
So - Do you folks want a series of threads on GitP concerning the Paradigm Project, or do you want to keep all work on Plothook.net?

Would you mind posting it to GITP? I'm not sure if we really need more than one thread here for it.

Lord_Gareth
2010-01-16, 06:26 PM
Ask, and ye shall recieve. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7706178#post7706178)

imp_fireball
2010-01-16, 08:08 PM
I tried. I came up with as many good feats as I could think of for my Gestalt Master of Nine build. He fights with a Kusari-Gama and a Shield, so I had lots of ideas. Mage Slayer tree ... a bunch of feats to improve his Maneuver initiating ...

I got stuck at about 40. 52 really is ridiculous.

So? Stack your save boosts a bunch of times and done.