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View Full Version : Retooling the Bladesinger (3.x) - Aure Entuluva!!



T.G. Oskar
2010-01-11, 07:14 PM
<Ladies and Gentlemen, Children of all ages!
Outsiders and Eldritch Abominations too!
I attempted to write this in Quenya, but I realized
Most of the forum-posters won't even get it
So please assume, fair Elf readers, that this introduction
Is done in your native language, and pardon
The lack of proper rhyme. I suck at poetry, so there.>

While working on the next class retooling (which I have announced in Bhu's Samurai Redux post that it will also be a Samurai), I decided to work again on another Prestige Class. This time, instead of the general and usual wide-open requirements that I usually do, I chose to make a very, very, very specific racial Prestige Class. We all know about the Ruathar, a Prestige Class that grants non-Elves treatment as if they were Elves. Now, that's cool and stuff, but...is the Ruathar the only actually worthwhile Elven-exclusive Prestige Class? Arcane Archer, for all means, sucks unless you know exactly how to dip it. And...well, each time an Elf gets some love, people seem to...ignore it. Champion of Corellon Larethian is certified to produce seizures in some former CO people. Seeker of the Misty Isle exists, but...what are the chances someone has actually tried it? Also, did you know there's a PrC called Wildrunner? Chances are, probably you don't. Heck, in between elf-exclusive classes and drow-exclusive classes, the drow win by a slight margin (with the clear exceptions of the Yathrinsee, which is by all means an aberration along the lines of True Necromancer)

Oh, yeah. The Eternal Blade: quite probably the Elven Redeemer. Darn, that PrC is awesome. But...if you have a group that doesn't like ToB, you're pretty much screwed in enjoying this gem of a PrC. So not only there's bad PrCs for elves, there's also a bias for the few that may be actually good. Plus, they're a bit of a far cry from the basic Elven warrior archetype.

However, from all of the classic elven PrCs, the one that quite probably reflects the original Elven archetype of a lightly armored magic-using warrior is the Bladesinger. Let's say that the Bladesinger is the original gish, on the days where the Elves were actually considered a class and not a race. The progression of the Elven warrior-mage screeched to a halt at the moment it entered 3rd Edition.

So we have a class that can fight well...on a system that slowly gives less importance to melee combat. The other side, the spellcasting side, was awfully dented. And the prerequisites were...let's just say not very enjoyable. So, with the advancements in homebrewing, and with a slight practice at Prestige Classes, I now attempt to strike a compromise between the original feel of the Elven warrior-mage and the real requisites that a character needs to survive.

I will be quite frank. The balance point for Prestige Classes is still a bit off for me, but I expect this is a good balance point. Recall that this isn't meant to be for all races and all builds; this is a PrC that works for a very specific build, much like the Mystic Theurge, but in this occasion, the build is far more specific. As in, racial specific.

So, without further ado, I introduce to you people the retooled, refurbished, and perhaps overupgraded...


BLADESINGER

http://www.raymondswanland.com/Images/Illustration%20Gallery/Bladesinger.jpg

Bladesinger, by Raymond Swanland. Originally used as cover art for the Forgotten Realms novel Bladesinger. Copyrighted to Wizards of the Coast, 2005

"Don't be fooled by the looks. Lida inorum saenes." - Besor Nair, elven bladesinger.

Requirements
To qualify to become a bladesinger, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Race: Any elf or half-elf
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 9 ranks, Perform (sing or dance) 4 ranks, Spellcraft 9 ranks, Tumble 4 ranks
Feats: Combat Casting, Weapon Finesse
Spells: Able to cast 1st-level arcane spells.

As you can see, the requirements are steep but rather fair. A regular spellcaster, without levels in fighter or any martial class, could very well enter at 10th level without trouble, and it would get pretty much full spellcasting if it desires. Someone that wishes to sacrifice some levels may enter no earlier than 7th level, in which the skill prerequisites are acquired. Of course, it's pointless unless you're an Elf or at least a Half-Elf. This should be expected, of course.

The feats were something I had to strike a compromise. Indeed, as it stands and as it will be soon seen, Combat Casting will be not entirely pointless, but Dodge and Mobility ask for too much. Four feats, in which only one is moderately decent, seems too much. So, I went with a much more reasonable choice, and that is Weapon Finesse: the expectation is that you won't go with a high Strength, and that at least at 3rd or 4th level, you may get some boosts for Strength. However, considering you already need a good Dexterity, Constitution AND your base casting score, adding Strength would be a tad unfair, Bite of X notwithstanding. Weapon Finesse and Bladesong Style help on that, of course. So, to keep the concept of someone who prepares for casting spells in battle, Combat Casting isn't exactly a bad idea.

And no, not thinking of changing it to Skill Focus (Concentration). I know it's several times better. But Combat Casting is OK for what the Bladesinger gets.

UPDATE: BAB is a tad steeper now, but skill prerequisites are much lower now. This means a character must now dip on a martial class, but the net result is being capable of somewhat earlier entry.

Class Skills
The bladesingerís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int) and Tumble (Dex)

Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

So yeah, pretty small list of class skills. Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft are pretty much obvious choices, Tumble is a needed skill as well as Concentration; Balance, Jump and Perform are legacy skills (and it aids for something else; you'll see), and Craft and Profession are basic skills. That should make a decent Bladesinger list, considering that they're warriors over anything else.

I'm thinking, though, of Escape Artist. It's not exactly a warrior skill, but they won't get a very potent Grapple skill; even with their bigger BAB, they could use some help. Ideas on whether it may be implemented or not?

Hit Die: d8

Table: The Bladesinger
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells

1st|+1|
+0|
+2|
+2|Bladesong style|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class

2nd|+2|
+0|
+3|
+3||+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class

3rd|+3|
+1|
+3|
+3|Bonus feat|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class

4th|+4|
+1|
+4|
+4|Mobile bladesong|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class

5th|+5|
+1|
+4|
+4|Song of victory|-

6th|+6|
+2|
+5|
+5|Bonus feat|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class

7th|+7|
+2|
+5|
+5|Spellsong|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class

8th|+8|
+2|
+6|
+6||+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class

9th|+9|
+3|
+6|
+6|Bonus feat|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class

10th|+10|
+3|
+7|
+7|Song of celerity|-[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are features of the bladesinger prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Bladesingers gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

IF you entered through a dip on a martial class, no worries; you already have more than you need. If you didn't...well, consider that Elves have free proficiencies in Longsword and Rapier, and most of the spellcasters' weapons are light weapons, so you'll have several ways to get to use the class abilities. Now, as for armor...you can either get to use light armor, or go straight to Mage Armor and Shield. So no loss in here either.

Thus, no need to add more proficiencies than you get.

Spells per Day: When a new bladesinger level after the first is gained (except for 5th and 10th), the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of bladesinger to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before he became a bladesinger, he must decide to which class he adds each level of bladesinger for the purpose of determining spells per day.

Standard and typical fare. No need to expand on it...wait, I do have to.

You may notice that one of the perks is that the Bladesinger has an 8/10ths spellcasting progression. This is a compromise: giving it full spellcasting progression is arguably too good, and even the Eldritch Knight has 9/10ths spellcasting. However, the granted abilities of the original Bladesinger definitely didn't asked for half spellcasting progression. That is almost sinful.

However, the 5th level and 10th level abilities are pretty powerful, powerful enough to merit removing an entire spellcasting level. Perhaps not 5th, but the 10th level ability most definitely requires it, because of the way it behaves. Normally, there is an unwritten rule for gishes: progression must end on 8th-9th level spells and 16 BAB. To work on that, a gish MUST get at least a 9/10ths spellcasting class. Furthermore, full spellcasters have another unwritten rule that I like: full spellcasting or bust, UNLESS there's an ability that compensates for losing one or two spellcasting levels. And even then, it requires some thought. The way the PrC was retooled was with this on mind. Not everyone will like it, but 8/10ths is far better than half spellcasting on any grounds.

Bladesong Style (Ex): The signature ability of the bladesinger is the ability to combine swordplay and arcane magic into a seamless whole. The bladesinger finds harmony within his arcane prowess and his swordsmanship, much like the harmony he finds within music itself.

At first level, a bladesinger uses his Intelligence (if able to cast prepared spells) or Charisma (if able to cast spells spontaneously) modifier to his damage rolls instead of his Strength modifier. Once this choice is made, it may not be reversed; however, the bladesinger may use his Strength modifier instead of his Intelligence or Charisma modifier if its higher. As well, the bladesinger adds either his Intelligence or Charisma modifier (as chosen) as a dodge bonus to his Armor Class, up to the bladesingerís class level. Furthermore, a bladesinger may cast his spells while ignoring arcane spell failure while wearing light armor. A bladesinger gains this ability only if he uses a weapon to which the Weapon Finesse feat applies (except for the spiked chain) and nothing in the other hand (except a material component, if applicable). Furthermore, a bladesinger may treat a longsword or scimitar as a light weapon for purposes of applying the Weapon Finesse feat benefit and for applying the benefits of this ability (but not for other abilities, such as using a longsword in the off-hand to reduce two weapon fighting penalties, for example).

A bard that gains levels in bladesinger gains an extra benefit. Levels in bladesinger stack with bard levels for purposes of granting extra uses of bardic music per day.

Yes, this is the signature ability. Basically, you add your Intelligence OR Charisma to your AC and damage. So, given that you want your base casting stat as high as possible, that means a hefty boost on melee damage when you want it. This ability has a disadvantage: it can only be used with light weapons, or rather, weapons to which Weapon Finesse applies. Since the Spiked Chain is a weapon that can be Finessed, but it's a two-handed weapon, it gets shafted; however, the longsword is added because of the Elven tradition of longsword combat. This also applies to the elven blades present on Races of the Wild, in case you haven't noticed.

So, you get the following: you add your Dexterity to hit (which means both AC and attack bonus), and your base casting stat to damage (and also to AC). So, you can be expected to have a pretty high AC bonus (up to +10, unless you go overboard with Epic Bladesinger...) even without armor. Armor is just the icing on the cake, if you desire. Or...Greater Mage Armor.

Also, the AC bonus is a dodge bonus. Yeah, the one that you can stack no matter what. So enjoy.

Now, you may have noticed that last bit right at the end. Bards get a special benefit by entering this prestige class. This is because the character will become a bladesinger, which undoubtedly screams bard. Bard has the easiest way to comply the requirements without trouble, and it has the chance to get somewhere else really fast. You know, that PrC called Sublime Chord? Yeah...

Oh, one last thing. Scimitar is also added. Just for you ol' 3.0 people that were angry that the Scimitar wasn't a light weapon anymore...

Bonus Feat: At 3rd level and every three levels afterwards, a bladesinger gains a bonus feat. The bladesinger may choose from the list of fighter bonus feats, reserve feats, or from the following list:

Bladesinger Bonus Feat List: Arcane Defense, Arcane Mastery, Arcane Preparation, Eschew Materials, Extra Slot, Extra Spell, Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, Ranged Spell Specialization, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Touch Spell Specialization.

A bladesinger must comply with the featís prerequisites, as usual.

First and foremost: you may have noticed the bonus feat list may be quite similar. If you guessed that it's similar to the bonus feat list from my Retooled Warmage, have a cookie.

The original version of the Bladesinger, located on the Forgotten Realms campaign setting book, gave the character the ability to acquire bonus feats, but from an insanely limited list. This list is much larger, since it allows you to get three Fighter bonus feats, or three reserve feats, or reasonable feats from a small list, or a combination of the three at any proportion imaginable. In theory, you get two bonus feats for having to invest on Combat Casting.

Since the Bladesinger doesn't get many abilities, bonus feats are a good way to fill up stuff.

Mobile Bladesong (Ex): At 4th level, a bladesinger learns to unleash a spell while dashing through the battlefield, taking no time to stop. As a full round action, a bladesinger may move up to twice his speed (as if using the double move action) and cast any spell that has a casting time no higher than a standard action. If the spell is a burst centered on the caster, the spell is executed after the movement ceases (not during the movement). He may use this ability only if he is currently receiving the benefits of the bladesong style.

Lemme explain this one. This ability was developed thanks to a brainstorming process with some pals around (you know who you are, peeps).

You know about Mobile Spellcasting (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Mobile_Spellcasting)? It's a pretty nifty feat from Complete Adventurer that allows you to move and cast a spell with a hefty Concentration check. It's the rough equivalent to Spring Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#springAttack) or Shot on the Run (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#shotOnTheRun), except you don't get to invest on Dodge AND Mobility for it. So it's very nice.

Except...well, have you seen that Concentration check? I know, some of you people can do it, but spending a precious feat for it? Well, despair no more. It's not the feat itself, of course, since it behaves as the precursor feats (Spring Attack, Shot on the Run), but it requires no Concentration check. Unless, of course, you want to cast defensively, in which Combat Casting (GASP!!!) suddenly comes to play.

The importance of this ability is to make the Bladesinger mobile. The concept of Dodge and Mobility gave this impression, but unfortunately they failed. A Bladesinger had to remain still to cast their spells, or move and strike, but not both. And having to suggest "moving and striking" with Dodge and Mobility simply doesn't help. Now, you can cast a spell from one side of the battlefield and dash all the way to the other side, or viceversa, effectively extending your casting range (and moving out of harm's way). Of course, there's some limitations: bursts and emanations have very specific rules, and going "30 ft., boom, 30 ft." doesn't seem too practical. So, bursts and emanations work only when you actually stop. So be mindful of that one, you hear?

Song of Victory (Ex): At 5th level, a bladesinger completely submerges within the bladesong style, reaching the pinnacle of swordsmanship. Although the moment of clarity is limited, it is significative.

By expending a prepared spell or spell slot as a swift action, the bladesinger enters a state of near martial supremacy for a number of rounds equal to twice the expended spell level. 0-level spells count as 1/2 level for purposes of determining the expended spell level (thus, they grant one round of this ability) and may be expended along a spell of higher level. The bladesinger treats his caster level as if it were his base attack bonus for the duration of the ability (up to the bladesinger's character level or a maximum BAB of 20, whichever is lower) for all purposes, including extra attacks and for the use of feats such as Power Attack. A bladesinger may only use this ability if he receives the benefits of the bladesong style class ability.

If the bladesinger has daily uses of bardic music, he may expend an amount of daily uses (up to his Charisma modifier) instead of spell levels for the purpose of determining the number of rounds.

Yup. You read that right. It's the thing that most people hate.

Effective BAB increase.

So, if you're a gish, and you get to 16 BAB, you're golden. But what if you don't? What if you get so little BAB, you don't get to the magical number to get as many attacks as possible? Well, fear not. This ability allows you to effectively and selectively gain full BAB with minimal effort, of course following the tenets of the bladesong style. It's an on/off switch, so you can turn it on now, use it as you wish, and then turn it off. Of course, given that this is a pretty strong move, it's not a swift action but a standard action. Depending on how you make the argument, I might change to swift, but standard seems reasonable thus far. It's pretty conservative for what you get (full BAB, something that only Clerics get with their spells; or martial characters whom, well...reaching Fighter 20 is a statement to behold...)

Again, bards get a boost: they can sacrifice their bardic music for extra rounds of full BAB, if necessary.

In case you've noticed: this pretty much replaces Song of Fury. It was nice, but you already have various ways to get extra attacks. This is far more practical.

UPDATE: Let's give it a more gishy feeling, alright? It's no longer uses per day, but uses per spell slot expended. Even cantrips are useful for this, since you can spend one and gain the benefit for one round. And yes, since it's potent but expending a cantrip and losing the benefit would be impractical, it's a swift action now.

Spellsong (Ex): At 7th level, a bladesinger may channel any spell he can cast into a melee weapon as a swift action. The spell affects the next target the bladesinger successfully attacks with his weapon, even if the target is normally an area or a ray. Saving throws and spell resistance still apply. A bladesinger can only channel a spell only if he is receiving the benefits of the bladesong style.

If the bladesinger is under the effect of song of victory, the spell remains in the weapon until after the beginning of his next round.

UPDATE: Alright, so the original spellsong ability was basically a souped-up Practiced Spellcaster in disguise. People would still get it, and apparently there was no reason to have this ability.

I pitched the idea of adding a Channel Spell ability, since it has effectively become a "requirement" for a gish. Casting spells through melee weapons has slowly seeped into the minds of people. So...why not take an ability such as spellsong, which caused a bit of controversy, and change it to a channel spell ability?

Thus, we now have more reasons to call a bladesinger a proper gish. If you use song of victory, things become even better.

Song of Celerity (Ex): A bladesinger achieves the maximum degree of skill in the bladesong style, accelerating his movements and words to unleash spells at uncanny speeds, and still be capable of unleashing another spell or striking with martial prowess.

By expending a prepared spell or spell slot as a swift action, a bladesinger of 10th level or higher may quicken a single spell, as if he had used the Quicken Spell feat but without any adjustments to the spellís casting time. The quickened spell may not be of a spell level higher than twice the expended spell level. 0-level spells count as 1/2 level for purposes of determining the expended spell level (thus, they allow to quicken 1st level spells) and may be expended along a spell of higher level. He may use this ability only if he is receiving the benefits of the bladesong style.

If the bladesinger has daily uses of bardic music, he may expend an amount of daily uses of bardic music equal to the level of the spell to be quickened in order to use this ability.

Remember when I said that the 10th level ability merited the removal of a spellcasting level? Pretty much nothing replaces the ability to get new spells and new spells known: nothing.

But consider the following: Quicken Spell is one of the best metamagic feats around, simply because it breaks action economy. Instead of one spell, you get two spells. Instead of one action, you can get potentially more. And it has a pretty hefty price to pay.

So...is it reasonable to eliminate two spellcasting levels to grant the Bladesinger (a very limited entry PrC already) the ability to cast one spell quickened without penalties per encounter? Yes, you read that right. Per encounter. It is quite debatable just how beneficial this can be, but I'm sure of one thing: those who entered through Sorcerer or spontaneous spellcasting will be happy. WAY too happy: I mean, even they can use it! And Sorcerers get loads of benefits from wasting expending their spell slots with reckless abandon.

But the ones that will enjoy this more are Bards. Yeah, bards. Since you get extra uses of Bardic Music per day, and you can expend three daily uses to Quicken any spell you can cast (far cheaper than Metamagic Song, I can tell you), Bards can cast spells almost all day. What if they don't get 9th level spells?

If you don't get this well, imagine entering while getting the Sublime Chord spellcasting ability. Yes, it's that good.

UPDATE: Bards got shafted a bit, others got less shafted. Song of Celerity now consumes either spell slots or bardic music daily uses (at least one lesser than Metamagic Song) to quicken a spell (well, swift-action a spell...which is exactly what Quicken Spell is meant to do, so...) This makes this ability useful when needed, but also less of a hassle. Also, you can make those cantrips useful again, not to mention that you can spend them along a spell of higher level for odd-level spells. So, as an example: a cantrip + a 3rd level spell quickens a 7th level spell.

So, as usual, please state your comments: whether if the Bladesinger now lives to its potential or it has failed to reach the task. Or whether I'm so bad I shouldn't make another homebrew ever again: I can live with that. Or...well, praise as well; I'll try to be humble. Also, feedback and ideas are welcome: Bladesinger was pretty hard to finish, since it's a pretty focused gish-type PrC but it got several boosts.

Also...does someone know Quenya? Or the Elven language? I could use some more phrases in Elven to pique this up, you know what I mean?

Drolyt
2010-01-11, 07:42 PM
For the quote, how about "Aure Entuluva" The Day Shall Come Again! Song of Fury doesn't work right with Epic Base Attack Bonus.

peacenlove
2010-01-11, 07:50 PM
*Rolls Sleight Of Hand to T.G. Oscars homebrew*
*Bladesinger successfully yoinked for peacenlove's campaign* :smallbiggrin:
While i am not a good judge of balance i can say that this class has a lot of power and options to bring to the table... which is very good!

Drolyt
2010-01-11, 07:58 PM
Right, Song of Fury doesn't really work with Epic Base Attack Bonus. This class is almost too powerful, though still less powerful than many PrCs. For one thing you can get a pretty darn high dodge bonus to AC. For another you can quicken 9th level spells. Altogether seems pretty good though. Not too terribly unbalanced, I'm not sure I would take it over full casting... another thing is if you want to optimize this you go full caster until you qualify for this class then this class, which makes no sense storyline wise, maybe you should retool it so there is no lost in casting but you somehow need a couple melee class levels to get in.

FlamingKobold
2010-01-11, 08:05 PM
Yeah, I've got to say, that picture doesn't look much like a full caster... I think you should pretty much force them to multiclass. So, proficiency in all martial weapons and medium armor would be good. No extra tax if you multiclass to a melee class, but 2 featws to a full caster. Also maybe add in another melee combat oriented feat, like maybe dodge would be okay, but preferably something that is at least decent for almost all melee builds.

Or just require bard levels... This would be a sweet bard PrC.

Mikka
2010-01-11, 08:29 PM
This is too powerful.

Compare it to sorcerer 10.

+5 bab

-2 cl.

Very powerful ability one: Bladesong
Very powerful ability two: Song of Victory
Powerful ability: Song of Celerity.

Effective Bonus feats 4. (spellsong +3 actual feats)

Ow!

Compared to Eldritch Knight its still ALOT better.

The requirements also only really require you to lose one feat (combat casting) which will probably be useful in this case, and then weapon finesse which is basically a must have in any case anyways.

How to fix it. You have song of victory, you already have the option of improving base attack bonus, change the base attack bonus to either bad, or whats it called? alright? (cleric/rogue progression)

Also remove spellsong, You already get 3 bonus feats, thats what practiced caster is for. . only this ability is more powerful and could potentially be abused.

Right now its also and INCREDIBLY good 4 level dip, probably 5 just for for that sweet ability.

Its good thoughts put into it, hmm, if this instead was directed towards bards, removed some bonus feats and added some interesting song abilities (possibly progressing bard song) the +bab and high spell progression would be much fairer.

I'd really like to see you make a Bladesinger (Bard)TM. version. . Songblade?

Also good general ideas and thoughts, just very very powerful with icing and cherries on top.

Drolyt
2010-01-11, 08:36 PM
This is too powerful.

Compare it to sorcerer 10.

+5 bab

-2 cl.

Very powerful ability one: Bladesong
Very powerful ability two: Song of Victory
Powerful ability: Song of Celerity.

Effective Bonus feats 4. (spellsong +3 actual feats)

Ow!

Compared to Eldritch Knight its still ALOT better.

The requirements also only really require you to lose one feat (combat casting) which will probably be useful in this case, and then weapon finesse which is basically a must have in any case anyways.

How to fix it. You have song of victory, you already have the option of improving base attack bonus, change the base attack bonus to either bad, or whats it called? alright? (cleric/rogue progression)

Also remove spellsong, You already get 3 bonus feats, thats what practiced caster is for. . only this ability is more powerful and could potentially be abused.

Right now its also and INCREDIBLY good 4 level dip, probably 5 just for for that sweet ability.

Its good thoughts put into it, hmm, if this instead was directed towards bards, removed some bonus feats and added some interesting song abilities (possibly progressing bard song) the +bab and high spell progression would be much fairer.

I'd really like to see you make a Bladesinger (Bard)TM. version. . Songblade?

Also good general ideas and thoughts, just very very powerful with icing and cherries on top.

I agree it is a great 4 level dip, though the 5th level isn't as great as some make it out to be. Would never dip it. Making it Bard might work, but it destroys the Elven flavour...

FlamingKobold
2010-01-11, 08:43 PM
You can have elven bards... Like I said, incredibly powerful for a full caster (even with the feat and skill tax and lost CL) but for a bard, it would just be sweet.

arguskos
2010-01-11, 08:46 PM
Uh... I debate if this is better than the Swiftblade, or your average Sorcadin build. My gut says no, meaning that this is probably on the high side of PrCs, which is fine, and what I think you were shooting for, TG.

Drolyt
2010-01-11, 08:59 PM
Uh... I debate if this is better than the Swiftblade, or your average Sorcadin build. My gut says no, meaning that this is probably on the high side of PrCs, which is fine, and what I think you were shooting for, TG.

It is not. I've built Sorcadin's that are virtually unkillable. This class is far from overpowered, and I'm not sure I'm really getting an Elven feal from it. I think I might try something like this latter, but as for this class, much better than the original, great for those who loved that fluff, pointless for anyone else.

arguskos
2010-01-11, 09:12 PM
It's a good gish PrC, probably up there with Abjurant Champion and Swiftblade, but yeah, I think the only thing I could say is missing is a real elven flavor. Yeah, it ties into the "elves are good with light weapons and magic yay" thing, but that's not really all that distinct. Given what was there to work with, I think it worked out really well though.

Mikka
2010-01-11, 09:16 PM
I think it needs to be made more interesting, removing bonus feats adding song abilities, make spellsong actually do something instead of being practiced Spellcaster in disguise.

And again, buff this things spellcasting, change the requirements and make it an elven Songblade prestige class, that would actually be really neat. Maybe add some spells to the bards repertoire as well.

And you say sorcadin. .if you made a sorcadin. . don't tell me you wouldn't do at least a 1 level dip in this class. +1-4 ac, full bab+cl, +CHA damage. ow.

Paladin(2)/Sorc(4)/spellsword(1)/Bladesinger(1-4)->Abjurant champ(5) , just to start.

The level one ability combines two powerful abilities into one. Duelists Canny defence and various costly to reach classes' +X ability score to damage over STR.

The final song hasn't really got the Bladesinger vibe to it. . its basically just free quicken spell. . didn't the original class have +quicken spell as part of a full round action? Thats better, more magic + swordfighting combined. .

Thats actually the biggest critique actually. . you fail to merge spells and blades. . its just this ability improves melee, this improves spells. . but the point of the bladesong is to meld both into one isn't it? <Shrugs>

But hey, you've still done a much better job than wizards, and it has lots of potential, i'll be following this if you havent realized already : D <3

T.G. Oskar
2010-01-11, 10:56 PM
For the quote, how about "Aure Entuluva" The Day Shall Come Again! Song of Fury doesn't work right with Epic Base Attack Bonus.

Good one. I will consider it.

As for Song of Fury: it has a hard cap of BAB +20, as mentioned before. It's not exactly "equal to caster level". Epic Attack Bonus is mostly that, a bonus added to the BAB after 20th level. So, aside from that, it shouldn't have any trouble: it's meant to behave as if you had full BAB, but only temporarily.


This class is almost too powerful, though still less powerful than many PrCs. For one thing you can get a pretty darn high dodge bonus to AC. For another you can quicken 9th level spells. Altogether seems pretty good though. Not too terribly unbalanced, I'm not sure I would take it over full casting... another thing is if you want to optimize this you go full caster until you qualify for this class then this class, which makes no sense storyline wise, maybe you should retool it so there is no lost in casting but you somehow need a couple melee class levels to get in.

I could make a joint, such as adding the Einhander feat to the mix. It really works well with Bladesong Style, which has the same prerequisites.

The dodge bonus to AC is capped as well. It becomes really dangerous at epic levels IF you take Epic Bladesinger levels, but for the most part it works exactly as the original Bladesong style, except for the added damage. At Bladesinger 1, you get a +1 dodge bonus to AC, not your full Int bonus. At Bladesinger 6th or 7th, it may reach your Intelligence or Charisma modifier and then get capped naturally. To have a really insane AC bonus, you need an equally insane Int score of 30. Not hard, I reckon, but it's not something that you'll get every time you play.


Yeah, I've got to say, that picture doesn't look much like a full caster... I think you should pretty much force them to multiclass. So, proficiency in all martial weapons and medium armor would be good. No extra tax if you multiclass to a melee class, but 2 featws to a full caster. Also maybe add in another melee combat oriented feat, like maybe dodge would be okay, but preferably something that is at least decent for almost all melee builds.

Or just require bard levels... This would be a sweet bard PrC.

As I said, given how it works, I'd say Einhander.

Full proficiency with all martial weapons and medium armor just doesn't cut it that much; it loses quite a lot of the flavor. The idea is that you're pretty much limiting yourself to light weapons + longsword, rapier, scimitar and elven racial weaponry, so requesting them full martial proficiency would be a tad off. However, as the original devs worked, bumping BAB to +6 would do the trick. A full spellcaster wouldn't get the BAB unless it got 12 levels, which isn't bad but it nukes some of the spellcasting ability. +7 would also be reasonable, but taxing. The point is mostly on BAB requirements, since it's a stronger gauge than proficiency with all weapons.

Couple that with the notion that you won't get many good weapons if you go full caster, and it gives a stronger notion.

As for the picture...it's the cover for the novel Bladesinger, from the Forgotten Realms Fighters collection. The idea is to actually portray a Bladesinger. I...found it very, very odd, but it says Bladesinger and I didn't wanted to go with the book examples. Suggestions as for a better picture are recommended, though.


This is too powerful.

Compare it to sorcerer 10.

+5 bab

-2 cl.

Very powerful ability one: Bladesong
Very powerful ability two: Song of Victory
Powerful ability: Song of Celerity.

Effective Bonus feats 4. (spellsong +3 actual feats)

Ow!

Compared to Eldritch Knight its still ALOT better.

Technically, it would be compared to Sorcerer 20, which would have full spellcasting, +10 BAB, better Reflex and Will saves, and...actual class features other than a Familiar. But it also depends on the entry requirement.

As people mentioned after, it's strikingly different from Swiftblade, which is considered one of the best gish PrCs ever and a good comparison point. The BAB progression is equal, the saves are equal, the spell progression is far weaker (6/10ths compared to the Bladesinger's 8/10ths), but the Swiftblade has better class abilities. Even in dip behavior, it doesn't compare to the second best, which is Abjurant Champion compared to a dip of Bladesinger 5.

So it's not exactly THAT powerful (the fact that Song of Celerity is far more powerful than the two you mentioned), but it can be twinked out.


The requirements also only really require you to lose one feat (combat casting) which will probably be useful in this case, and then weapon finesse which is basically a must have in any case anyways.

Weapon Finesse was chosen over Dodge + Mobility + Weapon Focus on terms of effectiveness. Adding a larger feat tax implies much more difficulty. I could very well allow Dodge + Mobility, since the class now has more mobility options, but I found that the practicality of the feats far outweighed the fluff requirements, in comparison to Weapon Finesse which implies a light armor user.


How to fix it. You have song of victory, you already have the option of improving base attack bonus, change the base attack bonus to either bad, or whats it called? alright? (cleric/rogue progression)

Medium BAB, and the idea is that this goes towards the Swashbuckler vibe, not the Rogue vibe. The improvement to BAB is only temporary, and the class is pretty focused on a martial vibe over a skirmisher vibe, so reducing BAB isn't so viable, even if you get the full BAB temporary option.


Also remove spellsong, You already get 3 bonus feats, thats what practiced caster is for. . only this ability is more powerful and could potentially be abused.

Shouldn't be abused, actually. Granted: it doesn't have the same importance given that a full spellcaster could enter without problem (but that is something I'm considering); yet, I feel that penalizing someone to get another feat for full CL is a tad pointless. So the skill exists so that you get full CL no matter what.

The reason I placed this ability was mostly to prevent so much feat taxing by imposing a Natural Spell-like feat. For most gishes, Practiced Spellcaster MUST be on their list. However, if it's too problematic...how about adding a spell power-like ability on 5th and 10th? It's at most a +2 to CL, although it's far more abusable (but then again, you'd require more Practiced Spellcaster feats and then you dent your feats, so it's a balance)


Right now its also and INCREDIBLY good 4 level dip, probably 5 just for for that sweet ability.

Not to...sound bad or something, but you can get a far better ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) for a little amount of money (scrolls or wands, your pick). Sure, it requires knowing the spell or UMD, but you can either dip to a class that has it (or adds it to your list) or get ranks in UMD (which is far more broken). And it can be used by pretty much anyone.

It may not be a solid argument, but it is an existing argument. Temporary full BAB doesn't make much if you don't either Pounce or wield a weapon with two hands, which is practically impossible with Bladesong Style (and by definition, Song of Victory)


Its good thoughts put into it, hmm, if this instead was directed towards bards, removed some bonus feats and added some interesting song abilities (possibly progressing bard song) the +bab and high spell progression would be much fairer.

I'd really like to see you make a Bladesinger (Bard)TM. version. . Songblade?

It has a special flexibility towards Bards, but it is meant to be a gish class first and foremost. The problem is mostly dragging a vestige from earlier classes, which specify Bladesong Style as a style that combines "art, swordfighting and spellslinging".

As it stands, it does progress daily uses of Bardic Music, and allows uses of Bardic Music, so it's much more favorable for Bards than for other classes.


This class is far from overpowered, and I'm not sure I'm really getting an Elven feal from it. I think I might try something like this latter, but as for this class, much better than the original, great for those who loved that fluff, pointless for anyone else.

It's hard to evoke an Elven feel. Rewriting the abilities in Elven may work very, very fine, but nonetheless I tried to.

First, I added Weapon Finesse. The base Elf score has strong Dexterity and bad Constitution, which mostly reflects on the addition of Weapon Finesse and a lack of good Fortitude saves in-PrC. So it makes reference to the base racial stat modifiers. Adding more references to Dex and less references to Con (such as adding Int or Cha to HP, but that's just asking for trouble) would give it a much more Elvish feel. The fact that you get a slight boost at Concentration, the only Con-based skill, should imply something...

Second, the addition of the longsword. Elves have racial proficiency with the longsword, so it makes little sense that they can't use the Bladesong style they prefer to use without one. Scimitar was, I must admit, a late addition but geared towards their 3.0 treatment as light weapons. Since they are more melee combatants than ranged combatants, their skill with the bow is not as important. Furthermore, it's...hard to strengthen their enhanced Search and Spot skills, unless I were to add them as class skills just because.

So yeah, it's very, very hard to give it an Elven feel aside from using Elven references, and it's very difficult to use the little phrases from Races of the Wild to support it (thus, the basis for it which would be Quenya)


I think it needs to be made more interesting, removing bonus feats adding song abilities, make spellsong actually do something instead of being practiced Spellcaster in disguise.

And again, buff this things spellcasting, change the requirements and make it an elven Songblade prestige class, that would actually be really neat. Maybe add some spells to the bards repertoire as well.

I worked with most of the tools available, using even old tools such as the original Bladesinger incarnation. It's hard to make it more interesting, but it was a good effort.

Bonus feats are needed, since they strengthen the inclination towards the martial side. Fighters, the quintessential martial artists, have far too much bonus feats: it is reasonable that you get some of their skill, even if it only implies using the three for maneuvers and stances. I know most of the opinion is to remove the feats as they "do nothing", but I feel that if you sacrificed part of your build on feats and you're trying to be a tad more martial, you need more feats. Which can't be used on Metamagic feats, although Reserve feats are fair game.

As for the Bard reference, I'll say it again: it's an option, but this is a gish PrC first and foremost. To make it Bard-exclusive would be missing the point of the original intention (reclaiming some of the old Elf feel), but it has to be worked towards more reasonable goals. Perhaps the problem is with the title, as I mentioned, but then again, I'm working with a title that has some meaning. I could make it so that Bards benefit a lot, but in the end, the idea is to aim for "arcane spellcaster/light weapon & armor gish" more than "Bard gish".


And you say sorcadin. .if you made a sorcadin. . don't tell me you wouldn't do at least a 1 level dip in this class. +1-4 ac, full bab+cl, +CHA damage. ow.

You don't imagine how this would be beloved. Spellsong is 7th level, so it wouldn't be exactly a dip rather than an honest-to-goodness dunk. But one of the points was to reduce MAD a bit. It doesn't do it exactly, since you still need a very good Con, but you can survive mostly with Int and Dex, while being capable of using Strength if necessary by boosting it. It's more of an option than an advantage. Compare to a Paladin/Sorcerer who has insane amounts of MAD, and could do very, very well if it at least could reduce one of those.


The level one ability combines two powerful abilities into one. Duelists Canny defence and various costly to reach classes' +X ability score to damage over STR.

If it serves you well, it would be the rough equivalent of Canny Defence + Snowflake Wardance. The AC acquisition is particularly strong, given that it's up to +10 dodge bonus to AC with the right Int (but reasonably, a +7) which doesn't get affected by touch or flat-footed penalties. The added damage is just icing, since enforcing Str to do damage seems more of an unreasonable penalty than an actual benefit: you can with the right amount of Int (or Cha) do a reasonable amount of damage, which reopens reasonable melee combat to the mix. Also, it doesn't stack with Strength, but rather overlaps with it. In comparison, the original Bladesinger also had the same ability, but limited to Intelligence: that limited the class to Wizards or Wu Jen, whom had the right move. Opening Charisma (which isn't a boosted stat for Elves) seems far more reasonable.


The final song hasn't really got the Bladesinger vibe to it. . its basically just free quicken spell. . didn't the original class have +quicken spell as part of a full round action? Thats better, more magic + swordfighting combined. .

Song of Celerity is mostly untouched, except that the uses per day turned into uses per encounter. It has the Bladesinger vibe since it allows you to add a spell right into a full attack, or part of a double move (coupled with Mobile Bladesong, you actually get to cast twice), or through the use of other actions, but the use is far more limited.


Thats actually the biggest critique actually. . you fail to merge spells and blades. . its just this ability improves melee, this improves spells. . but the point of the bladesong is to meld both into one isn't it? <Shrugs>

Now that's a good point to state. It is very difficult to mix and mingle both swordplay and spellcasting. The usual tool is "sacrifice spell of X level, gain Y benefit". It's reasonable given that you'll get several spells, but in the end, spells overpower your melee capabilities.

Not that I say it's a bad idea; in fact, it would give the true feel of "spellcasting and swordfighting mixed into one", but adding a bit more would thread pretty dangerously on other areas. Channel spell is an effective method of mingling both, and it's present in nearly every single gish build (one way or another), but it's difficult to justify here. Not very difficult (it would certainly add to the idea of blended combat), but it has to be done right, so that it doesn't step on the toes of Spellsword or Duskblade or Smiting Spell metamagic.

Song of Victory and Song of Celerity can be turned into the "sacrifice spell of X level, gain Y benefit" format, and without much trouble (with Bards allowed to use Bardic Music daily uses instead), and that wouldn't be difficult, but I wouldn't do it without further discussion. It is a nice compromise, since it gives the impression that you are fueling your swordsmanship through your spellcasting, but the inverse isn't present.

So...with all the barrage of ideas, I'll propose some changes:
--Adding the Einhander tactical feat to the list of prerequisites. Failing that, restoring Dodge (and if necessary, Mobility as well)
--Raising the BAB requirement.
--Making Song of Victory and Song of Celerity fueled by expending spells instead of fixed used per day.
--Adding some sort of Channel Spell

Ideas? Comments?

Draz74
2010-01-12, 01:51 AM
This is a definite improvement of the Bladesinger. I generally like it.

Dunno about raising the BAB requirement. +6 means a Sorcerer or Wizard will have to dip a martial class to finish the class pre-epic. +7 means a Sorc/Wizard can't finish it at all, though a Bard still barely can. I assume you're not thinking of going higher than that ...

I especially like the adding of Longsword to Finesse.

The intent is obviously to advance spellcasting at Level 1, but the actual writeup of the Spellcasting ability makes it sound like Level 1, as well as Levels 5 and 10, are spellcasting-skipping levels.

I can't see what would be the harm in adding Escape Artist to class skills. It's not like this build will ever have enough skill points to spend on it anyway.

aethernox
2010-01-12, 06:04 AM
I really like this. It's a powerful, usable PrC, finally; the original was quite depressing. It's significantly better than Eldritch Knight, yeah, but EK isn't a good gish PrC anymore. This compares well to Swiftblade, Abjurant Champion, and Jade Phoenix Mage, whereas most other gish PrCs don't.

My sole problem with the abilities is that several of them are poorly worded. Song of Victory was a bit confusing when I first read it, but the examples cleared that up. It could be misread to alter the Bladesinger's CL so that it equals his BAB, rather than changing his BAB to match his CL, which seems to be the intent of the ability.



So...with all the barrage of ideas, I'll propose some changes:
--Adding the Einhander tactical feat to the list of prerequisites. Failing that, restoring Dodge (and if necessary, Mobility as well)
--Raising the BAB requirement.
--Making Song of Victory and Song of Celerity fueled by expending spells instead of fixed used per day.
--Adding some sort of Channel Spell

Ideas? Comments?

-- No, thanks.
-- I'd suggest against this, as well. The skill requirements are already quite limiting, and I don't feel that you need to move this class's progression back.
-- That's an interesting thought, but it depends on how you choose to implement it.
-- That would work quite well, I think. You could either go about it like a duskblade, or you could resort to using some form of Smiting Spell. Speaking of which, if you're really wanting another pre-req, you could use Smiting Spell. It's not a very useful feat as-is, but you could remedy that with a class feature... (making it a swift action would do that quite well, in my opinion)

Drolyt
2010-01-12, 07:42 AM
So...with all the barrage of ideas, I'll propose some changes:
--Adding the Einhander tactical feat to the list of prerequisites. Failing that, restoring Dodge (and if necessary, Mobility as well)
--Raising the BAB requirement.
--Making Song of Victory and Song of Celerity fueled by expending spells instead of fixed used per day.
--Adding some sort of Channel Spell

Ideas? Comments?

1. No. Mostly cause I don't like non core requirements in homebrew, partially cause I just don't like it.
2. If you raise it to +6 the best Spellcaster/warrior ratio barring Abjurant Champion or some other +1 BAB/+CL PrC is Spellcaster 8/Melee Class 2, at +7 the best ratio is Spellcaster 6/Melee Class 4. With Abjurant champion you can Reach +6 with 9 spellcaster levels and only one melee level, with +7 you can get 8 spellcaster levels. +6 BAB would be ok, but it would be better if there was some other way to force the character to have some melee under their belt. Also if you do this you might want to give closer to full spellcasting. Another option is to make this enterable earlier (like 6th level), just so it doesn't feel like you are a Wizard who halfway through your career (when you are already awesomely powerful) gains fighting abilities. Lower level PrCs see more play anyways.
3. I like this idea, and add other abilities instead of bonus feats.
4. Again, cool idea.

arguskos
2010-01-12, 12:20 PM
-- That would work quite well, I think. You could either go about it like a duskblade, or you could resort to using some form of Smiting Spell. Speaking of which, if you're really wanting another pre-req, you could use Smiting Spell. It's not a very useful feat as-is, but you could remedy that with a class feature... (making it a swift action would do that quite well, in my opinion)
Actually, an interesting way to blend the further with Bard might be to give them a capstone where they can spend bardic music uses to cast spells, at a 1 use of bardic music = 1 spell level ratio. Or, perhaps combine a swift action Smiting Spell with the above "extra" for bards, meaning bardic Smiting Spells could be crazy good with lots of Bladesinger. It was a though, if a likely overpowered one.

ErrantX
2010-01-12, 12:53 PM
There are a few things that I had qualms with as far as a couple class features, but others and yourself have already addressed these T.G. Oskar. This is very different from the remake of this class that I did (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109516) (which is a Tome of Battle version). Overall I think this is a great retooling of the class, I especially love all of the bard love, but as some stated I agree there needs to be more synergy between blade and spell, at least in the capstone. Perhaps also consider capping quickening for free to 6th level spells or lower?

-X

P.S. If it's okay with you, may I take some inspiration from your works here and add them to my own remake? I'd just like to take some of the bard love and add it to my own.

Drolyt
2010-01-12, 12:58 PM
There are a few things that I had qualms with as far as a couple class features, but others and yourself have already addressed these T.G. Oskar. This is very different from the remake of this class that I did (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109516) (which is a Tome of Battle version). Overall I think this is a great retooling of the class, I especially love all of the bard love, but as some stated I agree there needs to be more synergy between blade and spell, at least in the capstone. Perhaps also consider capping quickening for free to 6th level spells or lower?

-X

I actually like your class, but one thing the OP mentioned in the post was that there was no love for elves that wasn't ToB. Instead of quickening a spell for free, how bout an ability that allows you to cast a spell and attack as a full round action? Seems to me there was a class with that ability, it's not too broken.

T.G. Oskar
2010-01-12, 07:31 PM
I'll go with the round of answers first, and then I'll suggest a slight idea I got after remembering something the WotC developers did, which should stop and handle the barrage of "this PrC is awesome for bards", and reach compromises that are effective. Anyways...


Dunno about raising the BAB requirement. +6 means a Sorcerer or Wizard will have to dip a martial class to finish the class pre-epic. +7 means a Sorc/Wizard can't finish it at all, though a Bard still barely can. I assume you're not thinking of going higher than that ...

That's a cause of concern expressed earlier. The idea is to have a dip on a martial class for the extra BAB points (mostly 2), then go full spellcaster and take advantage of the increased BAB and 8/10ths spellcasting. As you mentioned, +7 is too high, but reasonable: +6 seems to be the middle point in one side or the other. However, given that the skill requirements place the true minimum requirement at level 7, that means you can get into the class by dipping 2 levels of a martial class and 6 from a spellcasting class with the standings as-is. It also implies you can just go full spellcaster and ignore all the requisites of actually investing in a martial class. A BAB requirement of +6 is the middle ground since it'll require a dip if the intention is to get it before the 11th level, at the cost of the highest level of spells. 8th level spells are no joke, though, mostly in the case of gishes.


The intent is obviously to advance spellcasting at Level 1, but the actual writeup of the Spellcasting ability makes it sound like Level 1, as well as Levels 5 and 10, are spellcasting-skipping levels.

Bladesong Style is a strong ability, but in terms of granting full BAB or quickening spells, it's not strong enough to merit eliminating a spellcasting level, which already is faltering. A 4/1/4/1 (non-spellcasting/spellcasting) progression seems quite viable, since it suggests a pattern which is easier to understand than 1/3/1/4/1 (NS/S/NS/S/NS), which would be the pattern suggested if the songs are considered. It's mechanical aesthetic, so to speak: a compromise between being mechanically viable (8/10ths spellcasting to allow a strong spellcasting presence, 2 spellcasting levels eliminated for the strong abilities in those levels) and elegant (a pretty pattern between the spellcasting levels and the non-spellcasting levels)


I can't see what would be the harm in adding Escape Artist to class skills. It's not like this build will ever have enough skill points to spend on it anyway.

It's not a legacy skill (one that appears in any of the write-ups about the Bladesinger), and it has a shaky fundament. Adding it because it won't "harm" still implies the skill is there. Same thing with "why not add UMD, since they won't have the skill points to spend on it"; however, UMD is a very powerful skill, one which would imply sacrificing Concentration, Knowledge (arcana) or Spellcraft to get it (and even Tumble!) Escape Artist isn't on the same league, but it's to show that the logic behind it is shaky.

A proper logic behind the addition of Escape Artist would be that the Bladesinger doesn't have enough Strength for when Strength checks are needed, which include escaping from grapples (through the Grapple check) or manacles (an actual Strength check). The inclusion of spells like Grease, however, counter that statement pretty well, and Freedom of Movement all but invalidates the option.

It's not that I don't want to add it, but that it requires a solid argument behind it.


My sole problem with the abilities is that several of them are poorly worded. Song of Victory was a bit confusing when I first read it, but the examples cleared that up. It could be misread to alter the Bladesinger's CL so that it equals his BAB, rather than changing his BAB to match his CL, which seems to be the intent of the ability.

Thanks for pointing that out. Any other ability that may seem poorly worded? I'm...not known for simplicity (except on Spellsong, which is horribly simple), so it may get lost in the write-up.


Actually, an interesting way to blend the further with Bard might be to give them a capstone where they can spend bardic music uses to cast spells, at a 1 use of bardic music = 1 spell level ratio. Or, perhaps combine a swift action Smiting Spell with the above "extra" for bards, meaning bardic Smiting Spells could be crazy good with lots of Bladesinger. It was a though, if a likely overpowered one.

Good, but it would only benefit Bards. Don't worry, I will still hold it under consideration (but I'll explain later)


Overall I think this is a great retooling of the class, I especially love all of the bard love, but as some stated I agree there needs to be more synergy between blade and spell, at least in the capstone. Perhaps also consider capping quickening for free to 6th level spells or lower?

I suggested the idea of Channel Spell, to which I have a stronger foundation towards it (much as Duskblade, but limited as with other "songs"), as well as expending spells to power up the abilities instead of solid uses per day. That should imply better synergy.

As for capping...well, the intention is to allow the Bladesinger a limited but viable method of quickening spells, so capping isn't an option. However, the fix I'm planning to song of Celerity should work along those lines.


P.S. If it's okay with you, may I take some inspiration from your works here and add them to my own remake? I'd just like to take some of the bard love and add it to my own.

Sure! Just...make sure you point out your muse... ;)


Instead of quickening a spell for free, how bout an ability that allows you to cast a spell and attack as a full round action? Seems to me there was a class with that ability, it's not too broken.

It's not broken, but it's kinda impractical; even more for a capstone ability (whether people like capstones or not). The execution of the attack would be mostly impractical except with touch attacks, unless for some way you get to teleport and do an attack with the spell (much like the Seer's Magick Frenzy (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Seer#High_Magick) ability from Final Fantasy Tactics A2: Grimoire of the Rift); however, that alone has some repercussions if you consider that Bards don't get many teleportation spells (I recall none, at least), and that specialist Wizards may have barred Conjuration. It also merits making such an ability supernatural in origin, which can work somewhat.

Quickening is not only a legacy class ability (drawn from the original version), but also quite practical; you may say practical to the point of absurdity. However, what I'll suggest now will be reasonable, I presume.

--

Now, before I pitch the idea, I'll expand the suggestions for further discussion, and how they would be seen in the first post:

2) Raising the BAB requirement:

The best choice would be BAB +6, but as suggested, a reduction on skill ranks required would set the absolute minimum to level 6, which is reasonable. It would look like this:


Requirements
To qualify to become a bladesinger, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Race: Any elf or half-elf
Base Attack Bonus: +5 +6
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 10 9ranks, Perform (sing or dance) 5 4 ranks, Spellcraft 10 9 ranks, Tumble 5 4 ranks
Feats: Combat Casting, Weapon Finesse
Spells: Able to cast 1st-level arcane spells.

3) Making Song of Victory and Song of Celerity fueled by expending spells instead of fixed used per day.

The concept would be as follows: you expend a spell of X level, you activate the ability and may use it for a number of rounds equal to 2X the spell's level (for Song of Victory) and quicken a spell up to 2X the expended spell level (so you could quicken an 8th level spell with a 4th level spell, for Song of Celerity). You could only expend 1 spell, with the exception of 0-level spells. In the case of 0-level spells, they would count as 1/2 level for purposes of determining the expended level (thus, they would count as 1 round for SoV and 1 level for SoC), and can be expended along a spell of higher level. They would look like this:


Song of Victory (Ex) (Sp): Once per day as a standard action, for a number of rounds equal to the bladesingerís class level plus his Intelligence or Charisma modifier, By expending a prepared spell or spell slot as a swift action, the bladesinger enters a state of near martial supremacy for a number of rounds equal to twice the expended spell level. 0-level spells count as 1/2 level for purposes of determining the expended spell level (thus, they grant one round of this ability) and may be expended along a spell of higher level. The bladesinger treats his base attack bonus as if it were his caster level for the duration of the ability (up to a maximum BAB of 20) for all purposes, including extra attacks and for the use of feats such as Power Attack. A bladesinger may only use this ability if he receives the benefits of the bladesong style class ability. The duration of the rounds need not be continuous.

If the bladesinger has daily uses of bardic music, he may expend two daily uses to use this ability for one extra round he may expend an amount of daily uses (up to his Charisma modifier) instead of spell levels for the purpose of determining the number of rounds.


Song of Celerity (Ex) (Sp):Once per encounter, By expending a prepared spell or spell slot as a swift action, a bladesinger of 10th level or higher may quicken a single spell, as if he had used the Quicken Spell feat but without any adjustments to the spellís casting time. The quickened spell may not be of a spell level higher than twice the expended spell level. 0-level spells count as 1/2 level for purposes of determining the expended spell level (thus, they allow to quicken 1st level spells) and may be expended along a spell of higher level. He may use this ability only if he is receiving the benefits of the bladesong style.

If the bladesinger has daily uses of bardic music, he may expend three daily uses to use this ability. Expending daily uses of bardic music does not count as expending this ability for the encounter (if he hasnít yet used it). he may expend an amount of daily uses of bardic music equal to the level of the spell to be quickened in order to use this ability.

4) Channel Spell ability.

While it still doesn't have a name (and I want it to have a song-based name), it should be like the Spellsword's Channel Spell ability, except that you can only use it if under the benefits of the bladesong style, as the other songs. It should look like this:


At X level, a bladesinger may channel any spell he can cast into a melee weapon as a swift action. The spell affects the next target the bladesinger successfully attacks with his weapon, even if the target is normally an area or a ray. Saving throws and spell resistance still apply. A bladesinger can only channel a spell only if he is receiving the benefits of the bladesong style.

If the bladesinger is under the effect of song of victory, the spell remains in the weapon until after the beginning of his next round.

--

Now, as for the suggestion I mentioned before:
I know most people requested a specific variant of the Bladesinger with much more bardic love. Some suggest making the Bladesinger more of a Bard PrC than a gish PrC, but I don't want to remove the idea of a gish PrC. However, there is something I can do, which would be a legal adaptation of the PrC so that it becomes more Bard-inclined.

The idea results from the City Stalker PrC, which has an impromptu alternate PrC feature to replace the capstone. Taking refuge in audacity, I could suggest a variant that would exchange some class abilities (such as the spellsong that people don't seem to like, and the bonus feats) for more bard-inclined abilities. This is a hard task, since it can't be stronger than Sublime Chord but it can't deviate from the norm of Bardic spells (Bard PrCs improve two of the following four abilities: fighting, skills, magic, bardic music). A Bard-flavored Bladesinger would be focused on fighting and magic, but it would still have some bardic music power and little in the area of skills.

The adaptation pitch would be as follows:
--Increase skill points from 2+Int to 4+Int. Better than usual but lower than base Bard. As well, increase skill list a bit.
--Keep full BAB, Reflex and Will
--Keep 8/10ths spellcasting.
--Remove bonus feats and Spellsong ability
--Song of Victory and Song of Celerity can only be used with bardic music attempts, no spell expenditure.
--Bardic Music area is improved a bit.
--New abilities. This still needs work.

The fluff isn't as important, as it can be said that it's a bardic college variant of Bladesinger, or a different school. This kind of Bladesinger wouldn't effectively replace the base Bladesinger, but it would allow for co-existance with those who feel this is a superb Bard PrC.

So, as usual: ideas? Comments?