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View Full Version : Drolyt's Homebrew Project II (Dual-Classing 3.5, PEACH)



Drolyt
2010-01-11, 09:56 PM
Ok my idea is to do away with the army of prestige classes that allow you to basically merge two classes by creating a Dual-Classing system. This is part of a series in which I'm experimenting with different rules for an upcoming d20 revision (you can see all my homebrew here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138867). Note that these classes are designed so that if you continued their progression then at 30th level you would have all class abilities from both classes.
The Rules:

To Dual Class, you create a new class (hereafter called the Dual-Class) by choosing two of the "half-classes" in this post. Dual-Classes are proficient with all Weapons and Armor either "Half-Class" is proficient in. To determine the size of Dual-Classes hit dice and how many skills you gain per level, add the value from the two classes together. For example, a Fighter has a d5 hit die and a Rogue has a d3 hit die, so a Fighter/Rogue gets a d8, and a Fighter has 1 Skill Point + Half Int Modifier per level while a Rogue has 4 + Half Int Modifier per level, so a Fighter/Rogue would have 5 + Int Modifier per level. This is the same as averaging the hit dice and skill points of the original classes. If you obtain an odd numbered hit die (for example, a Fighter/Wizard would result in a d7) then you round up for odd numbered levels and round down for even numbered levels (that is, at first level a Fighter/Wizard would roll a d8, but next level he would roll a d6). It is fine for Skill Points per level to be an odd number, even if normally that never happens. The Dual-Classes class skill list is made by combining all the skills on both half-classes lists. To find Base Attack and Save Bonuses at each level, add the corresponding bonuses from each class together, minding any fractions but rounding down at the end. For example, a first level Fighter/Wizard would have BAB 0 (.5 + 0 then round down), Base Fort +1 (1 + 0), Base Ref 0 (0 + 0), and Base Will +1 (0 + 1). Finally, the Dual-Class gains all special abilities listed for both classes, including any spellcasting. For example our Fighter/Rogue at first level gains a Fighter Bonus Feat, Sneak Attack +1d6, and Trapfinding. Note that class abilities given in the Classes description but not on their table (such as the Cleric's Aura) are a part of the Dual-Class unless noted otherwise but are not listed in the tables (for consistencies sake). Special Abiliities that rely on class level work off of the Dual-Classes level (for example a 15 level Wizard/Cleric's Aura is as strong as a 15th level Cleric's and his Familiar is that of a 15th level Wizard's).

The Fighter:

Hit Die: d5
Skills 1 + Half Int Modifier/level, four time that much at first level
Class Skills: The fighterís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).
Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0.5|
+1|
+0|
+0|Bonus Feat

2nd|
+1|
+1.5|
+0|
+0|

3rd|
+1.5|
+1.5|
+0.5|
+0.5|Bonus Feat

4th|
+2|
+2|
+0.5|
+0.5|

5th|
+2.5|
+2|
+0.5|
+0.5|

6th|
+3|
+2.5|
+1|
+1|Bonus Feat

7th|
+3.5|
+2.5|
+1|
+1|

8th|
+4|
+3|
+1|
+1|

9th|
+4.5|
+3|
+1.5|
+1.5|Bonus Feat

10th|
+5|
+3.5|
+1.5|
+1.5|

11th|
+5.5|
+3.5|
+1.5|
+1.5|

12th|
+6|
+4|
+2|
+2|Bonus Feat

13th|
+6.5|
+4|
+2|
+2|

14th|
+7|
+4.5|
+2|
+2|

15th|
+7.5|
+4.5|
+2.5|
+2.5|Bonus Feat

16th|
+8|
+5|
+2.5|
+2.5|

17th|
+8.5|
+5|
+2.5|
+2.5|

18th|
+9|
+5.5|
+3|
+3|Bonus Feat

19th|
+9.5|
+5.5|
+3|
+3|

20th|
+10|
+6|
+3|
+3|[/table]
The Rogue
Hit Die: d3
Skill Points: 4+ Half Int Modifier, 4 times that much at first level
Class Skills: The rogueís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Rogues are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Rogue
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+1|
+0|Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding

2nd|
+0.5|
+0|
+1.5|
+0|

3rd|
+1|
+0.5|
+1.5|
+0.5|Evasion

4th|
+1.5|
+0.5|
+2|
+0.5|Sneak Attack +2d6

5th|
+1.5|
+0.5|
+2|
+0.5|Trap Sense +1

6th|
+2|
+1|
+2.5|
+1|Uncanny Dodge

7th|
+2.5|
+1|
+2.5|
+1|Sneak Attack +3d6

8th|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+1|

9th|
+3|
+1.5|
+3|
+1.5|Trap Sense +2

10th|
+3.5|
+1.5|
+3.5|
+1.5|Sneak Attack +4d6

11th|
+4|
+1.5|
+3.5|
+1.5|

12th|
+4.5|
+2|
+4|
+2|Improved Uncanny Dodge

13th|
+4.5|
+2|
+4|
+2|Sneak Attack +5d6

14th|
+5|
+2|
+4.5|
+2| Trap Sense +3

15th|
+5.5|
+2.5|
+4.5|
+2.5|Special Ability

16th|
+6|
+2.5|
+5|
+2.5|Sneak Attack +6d6

17th|
+6|
+2.5|
+5|
+2.5|

18th|
+6.5|
+3|
+5.5|
+3|Trap Sense +4

19th|
+7|
+3|
+5.5|
+3|Sneak Attack +7d6

20th|
+7.5|
+3|
+6|
+3|Special Ability[/table]
The Monk

Alignment: Any Lawful
Hit Die: d4
Skills Per Level: 2 + Half Int Modifier, x4 at first level.
Class Skills: The monkís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.
Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields.
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
Monk
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Unarmed Strike|AC Bonus|Unarmored Speed Bonus

1st|
+0|
+1|
+1|
+1|Flurry of Blows (-2), Unarmed Strike|1d6|+0|+0 ft.

2nd|
+0.5|
+1.5|
+1.5|
+1.5|Bonus Feat|1d6|+0|+0 ft.

3rd|
+1|
+1.5|
+1.5|
+1.5|Bonus Feat, Evasion|1d6|+0|+0 ft.

4th|
+1.5|
+2|
+2|
+2|Still Mind|1d6|+0|+10 ft.

5th|
+1.5|
+2|
+2|
+2||1d6|+0|+10 ft.

6th|
+2|
+2.5|
+2.5|
+2.5|Ki Strike (Magic), Slow Fall 20'|1d8|+0|+10 ft.

7th|
+2.5|
+2.5|
+2.5|
+2.5|Flurry of Blows (-1)|1d8|+1|+10 ft.

8th|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|Purity of Body|1d8|+1|+10 ft.

9th|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|Bonus Feat, Slow Fall 30'|1d8|+1|+20 ft.

10th|
+3.5|
+3.5|
+3.5|
+3.5|Wholeness of Body|1d8|+1|+20 ft.

11th|
+4|
+3.5|
+3.5|
+3.5||1d8|+1|+20 ft.

12th|
+4.5|
+4|
+4|
+4|Slow Fall 40'|1d10|+1|+20 ft.

13th|
+4.5|
+4|
+4|
+4|Improved Evasion|1d10|+1|+30 ft.

14th|
+5|
+4.5|
+4.5|
+4.5|Flurry of Blows (-0)|1d10|+1|+30 ft.

15th|
+5.5|
+4.5|
+4.5|
+4.5|Ki Strike (Lawful), Slow Fall 50'|1d10|+2|+30 ft.

16th|
+6|
+5|
+5|
+5|Greater Flurry|1d10|+2|+30 ft.

17th|
+6|
+5|
+5|
+5|Diamond Body|1d10|+2|+30 ft.

18th|
+6.5|
+5.5|
+5.5|
+5.5|Abundant Step, Slow Fall 60'|2d6|+2|+40 ft.

19th|
+7|
+5.5|
+5.5|
+5.5|Diamond Soul|2d6|+2|+40 ft.

20th|
+7.5|
+6|
+6|
+6||2d6|+2|+40 ft.[/table]


The Wizard

d2
Skill Points: 1 + Half Int Modifier per level, x4 at first level
Class Skills: The wizardís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency Wizards are proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff, but not with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a wizardís movements, which can cause her spells with somatic components to fail.
Wizard
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+1|Familiar|3|0*

2nd|
+0.5|
+0|
+0|
+1.5|Scribe Scroll|3|1|-

3rd|
+0.5|
+0.5|
+0.5|
+1.5||4|2|-|-

4th|
+1|
+0.5|
+0.5|
+2||4|2|-|-|-

5th|
+1|
+0.5|
+0.5|
+2||4|2|1|-|-|-

6th|
+1.5|
+1|
+1|
+2.5||4|3|2|-|-|-|-

7th|
+1.5|
+1|
+1|
+2.5|Bonus Feat|4|3|2|-|-|-|-|-

8th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3||4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|
+2|
+1.5|
+1.5|
+3||4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|
+2.5|
+1.5|
+1.5|
+3.5||4|4|3|2|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|
+2.5|
+1.5|
+1.5|
+3.5||4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-

12th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+4||4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-

13th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+4||4|4|4|3|2|-|-|-|-|-

14th|
+3.5|
+2|
+2|
+4.5|Bonus Feat|4|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-

15th|
+3.5|
+2.5|
+2.5|
+4.5||4|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-

16th|
+4|
+2.5|
+2.5|
+5||4|4|4|4|3|2|-|-|-|-

17th|
+4|
+2.5|
+2.5|
+5||4|4|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-

18th|
+4.5|
+3|
+3|
+5.5||4|4|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-

19th|
+4.5|
+3|
+3|
+5.5||4|4|4|4|4|3|2|-|-|-

20th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+6||4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|-|-[/table]
* At first level a half Wizard's only first level spells per day are those he gets from a high Intelligence score.

The Cleric

Alignment: Must be within one step of Deities
d4
Skills Per Level: 1 + Half Int Modifier x4 at first level
Class Skills: The clericís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int). A cleric who chooses the Animal or Plant domain adds Knowledge (nature) (Int) to the cleric class skills listed above. A cleric who chooses the Knowledge domain adds all Knowledge (Int) skills to the list. A cleric who chooses the Travel domain adds Survival (Wis) to the list. A cleric who chooses the Trickery domain adds Bluff (Cha), Disguise (Cha), and Hide (Dex) to the list. See Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells, for more information.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, with all types of armor (light, medium, and heavy), and with shields (except tower shields).
A cleric who chooses the War domain receives the Weapon Focus feat related to his deityís weapon as a bonus feat. He also receives the appropriate Martial Weapon Proficiency feat as a bonus feat, if the weapon falls into that category.
Cleric
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th

1st|
+0|
+1|
+0|
+1|Turn or Rebuke Undead|3|0*+1

2nd|
+0.5|
+1.5|
+0|
+1.5||3|1+1|-

3rd|
+1|
+1.5|
+0.5|
+1.5||4|2+1|-|-

4th|
+1.5|
+2|
+0.5|
+2||4|2+1|-|-|-

5th|
+1.5|
+2|
+0.5|
+2||4|2+1|1+1|-|-|-

6th|
+2|
+2.5|
+1|
+2.5||5|3+1|2+1|-|-|-|-

7th|
+2.5|
+2.5|
+1|
+2.5||5|3+1|2+1|-|-|-|-|-

8th|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3||5|3+1|2+1|1+1|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|
+3|
+3|
+1.5|
+3||5|3+1|3+1|2+1|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|
+3.5|
+3.5|
+1.5|
+3.5||6|4+1|3+1|2+1|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|
+4|
+3.5|
+1.5|
+3.5||6|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|-|-|-|-|-

12th|
+4.5|
+4|
+2|
+4||6|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|-|-|-|-|-

13th|
+4.5|
+4|
+2|
+4||6|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|-|-|-|-|-

14th|
+5|
+4.5|
+2|
+4.5||6|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|-|-|-|-

15th|
+5.5|
+4.5|
+2.5|
+4.5||6|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|-|-|-|-

16th|
+6|
+5|
+2.5|
+5||6|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|-|-|-|-

17th|
+6|
+5|
+2.5|
+5||6|5+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|-|-|-

18th|
+6.5|
+5.5|
+3|
+5.5||6|5+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|-|-|-

19th|
+7|
+5.5|
+3|
+5.5||6|5+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|-|-|-

20th|
+7.5|
+6|
+3|
+6||6|5+1|5+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|-|-[/table]
*At first level a Half-Cleric's only first level spells per day are those he gains from having a high Wisdom score and his domain spell.

The Sorcerer

d2
Skill Points: 1 + Half Int Modifier per level, x4 at first level
Class Skills: The wizardís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency Sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a sorcererís gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.
Sorcerer
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+1|Familiar|5|3

2nd|
+0.5|
+0|
+0|
+1.5||6|4|-

3rd|
+0.5|
+0.5|
+0.5|
+1.5||6|5|-|-

4th|
+1|
+0.5|
+0.5|
+2||6|5|-|-|-

5th|
+1|
+0.5|
+0.5|
+2||6|6|3|-|-|-

6th|
+1.5|
+1|
+1|
+2.5||6|6|4|-|-|-|-

7th|
+1.5|
+1|
+1|
+2.5||6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-

8th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3||6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|
+2|
+1.5|
+1.5|
+3||6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|
+2.5|
+1.5|
+1.5|
+3.5||6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|
+2.5|
+1.5|
+1.5|
+3.5||6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-|-

12th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+4||6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-

13th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+4||6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-

14th|
+3.5|
+2|
+2|
+4.5||6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-

15th|
+3.5|
+2.5|
+2.5|
+4.5||6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-

16th|
+4|
+2.5|
+2.5|
+5||6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-

17th|
+4|
+2.5|
+2.5|
+5||6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-

18th|
+4.5|
+3|
+3|
+5.5||6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-

19th|
+4.5|
+3|
+3|
+5.5||6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-

20th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+6||6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-[/table]
Spells Known

{table=head]Level|0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9
1st|4|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|5|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|5|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4th|6|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5th|6|3|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
6th|6|4|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
7th|6|4|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
8th|7|4|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-
9th|7|5|3|2|-|-|-|-|-|-
10th|8|5|3|2|-|-|-|-|-|-
11th|8|5|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-
12th|8|5|4|3|2|-|-|-|-|-
13th|9|5|4|3|2|-|-|-|-|-
14th|9|5|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-
15th|9|5|5|4|3|2|-|-|-|-
16th|9|5|5|4|3|2|-|-|-|-
17th|9|5|5|4|3|2|1|-|-|-
18th|9|5|5|4|4|3|2|-|-|-
19th|9|5|5|4|4|3|2|-|-|-
20th|9|5|5|4|4|3|2|1|-|-
[/table]

If using my homebrew Sorcerer (found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137490)) simply make the following adjustments:

Spells/Day: Unchanged
Spells Known: Your spells known are now the same as your spells/day, and you add bonus spells if you have a high charisma. You know all 0th level spells.
Feats: Gain Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at 2nd level and gain a bonus feat (which must be a Metamagic feat, a Heritage feat, or a Draconic feat) at levels 7, 14, 21, and 28.
Metamagic Sorcerers do not take a longer time to cast metamagic enhanced spells, and can therefore use quicken spell.
Skills: Make 2 + Half Int Modifier and add all Knowledge (Int) skills as well as Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), and Gather Information. (Cha)


The Paladin

Alignment: Lawful Good
Hit Die: d5
Skills 1 + Half Int Modifier/level, four time that much at first level
Class Skills: The paladinís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).
Paladin
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|1st|2nd|3rd|4th

1st|
+0.5|
+1|
+0|
+0|Aura of Good, Detect Evil|-|-|-|-

2nd|
+1|
+1.5|
+0|
+0| Smite Evil 1/day|-|-|-|-

3rd|
+1.5|
+1.5|
+0.5|
+0.5|Divine Grace, Lay on Hands|-|-|-|-

4th|
+2|
+2|
+0.5|
+0.5|Aura of Courage|-|-|-|-

5th|
+2.5|
+2|
+0.5|
+0.5|Divine Health|-|-|-|-

6th|
+3|
+2.5|
+1|
+1|Turn Undead**|0*|-|-|-

7th|
+3.5|
+2.5|
+1|
+1|Special Mount|0*|-|-|-

8th|
+4|
+3|
+1|
+1|Smite Evil 2/Day|0*|-|-|-

9th|
+4.5|
+3|
+1.5|
+1.5|Remove Disease 1/Week|1|-|-|-

10th|
+5|
+3.5|
+1.5|
+1.5||1|-|-|-

11th|
+5.5|
+3.5|
+1.5|
+1.5||1|-|-|-

12th|
+6|
+4|
+2|
+2||1|0*|-|-

13th|
+6.5|
+4|
+2|
+2|Remove Disease 2/Week|1|0*|-|-

14th|
+7|
+4.5|
+2|
+2||1|0*|-|-

15th|
+7.5|
+4.5|
+2.5|
+2.5|Smite Evil 3/Day|1|1|-|-

16th|
+8|
+5|
+2.5|
+2.5||1|1|0*|-

17th|
+8.5|
+5|
+2.5|
+2.5||1|1|0*|-

18th|
+9|
+5.5|
+3|
+3|Remove Disease 3/Week|1|1|1|-

19th|
+9.5|
+5.5|
+3|
+3||1|1|1|-

20th|
+10|
+6|
+3|
+3||1|1|1|-[/table]
*When the table indicates 0 spells per day you can only cast spells of that level if your Wisdom score gives you bonus spells. **As a Cleric of your level Paladin Level -3

The Ranger

Hit Die: d4
Skills 3 + Half Int Modifier/level, four time that much at first level
Class Skills: The rangerís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency A ranger is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor and shields (except tower shields).
Ranger
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|1st|2nd|3rd|4th

1st|
+0.5|
+1|
+1|
+0|1st Favored Enemy, Wild Empathy|-|-|-|-

2nd|
+1|
+1.5|
+1|
+0|Track|-|-|-|-

3rd|
+1.5|
+1.5|
+1.5|
+0.5|Combat Style|-|-|-|-

4th|
+2|
+2|
+2|
+0.5|Endurance|-|-|-|-

5th|
+2.5|
+2|
+2|
+0.5|Divine Health|-|-|-|-

6th|
+3|
+2.5|
+2.5|
+1|Animal Companion**|0*|-|-|-

7th|
+3.5|
+2.5|
+2.5|
+1|2nd Favored Enemy|0*|-|-|-

8th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+1||0*|-|-|-

9th|
+4.5|
+3|
+3|
+1.5|Improved Combat Style|1|-|-|-

10th|
+5|
+3.5|
+3.5|
+1.5|Woodland Stride|1|-|-|-

11th|
+5.5|
+3.5|
+3.5|
+1.5||1|-|-|-

12th|
+6|
+4|
+4|
+2|Swift Tracker|1|0*|-|-

13th|
+6.5|
+4|
+4|
+2|Evasion|1|0*|-|-

14th|
+7|
+4.5|
+4.5|
+2||1|0*|-|-

15th|
+7.5|
+4.5|
+4.5|
+2.5|3rd Favored Enemy|1|1|-|-

16th|
+8|
+5|
+5|
+2.5|Combat Style Mastery|1|1|0*|-

17th|
+8.5|
+5|
+5|
+2.5||1|1|0*|-

18th|
+9|
+5.5|
+5.5|
+3||1|1|1|-

19th|
+9.5|
+5.5|
+5.5|
+3|Camouflage|1|1|1|-

20th|
+10|
+6|
+6|
+3||1|1|1|-[/table]
* When 0 spells per day are indicated a Ranger gains only those spells he would gain from a high Wisdom score. **As Druid of half the Ranger's Level.

The Barbarian

Alignment: Any Nonlawful
Hit Die: d6
Skills 2 + Half Int Modifier/level, four time that much at first level
Class Skills: The barbarianís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency A barbarian is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).
Note that due to the Nature of Dual-Classing, Barbarians using this system are never Illiterate. A PC may choose to be anyways if they want.
Barbarian
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0.5|
+1|
+0|
+0|Rage 1/Day

2nd|
+1|
+1.5|
+0|
+0|Fast Movement

3rd|
+1.5|
+1.5|
+0.5|
+0.5|Uncanny Dodge

4th|
+2|
+2|
+0.5|
+0.5|Trap Sense +1

5th|
+2.5|
+2|
+0.5|
+0.5|

6th|
+3|
+2.5|
+1|
+1|Rage 2/Day

7th|
+3.5|
+2.5|
+1|
+1|Improved Uncanny Dodge

8th|
+4|
+3|
+1|
+1|

9th|
+4.5|
+3|
+1.5|
+1.5|Trap Sense +2

10th|
+5|
+3.5|
+1.5|
+1.5|Damage Reduction 1/-

11th|
+5.5|
+3.5|
+1.5|
+1.5|

12th|
+6|
+4|
+2|
+2|Rage 3/Day

13th|
+6.5|
+4|
+2|
+2|Trap Sense +3

14th|
+7|
+4.5|
+2|
+2|

15th|
+7.5|
+4.5|
+2.5|
+2.5|Damage Reduction 2/-

16th|
+8|
+5|
+2.5|
+2.5|Greater Rage

17th|
+8.5|
+5|
+2.5|
+2.5|

18th|
+9|
+5.5|
+3|
+3|Rage 4/Day

19th|
+9.5|
+5.5|
+3|
+3|Trap Sense +4

20th|
+10|
+6|
+3|
+3|Damage Reduction 3/-[/table]
The Druid

Alignment: Must be within one step of Deities
d4
Skills Per Level: 2 + Half Int Modifier x4 at first level
Class Skills: The druidís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency Druids are proficient with the following weapons: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, shortspear, sling, and spear. They are also proficient with all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape.
Druids are proficient with light and medium armor but are prohibited from wearing metal armor; thus, they may wear only padded, leather, or hide armor. (A druid may also wear wooden armor that has been altered by the ironwood spell so that it functions as though it were steel. See the ironwood spell description) Druids are proficient with shields (except tower shields) but must use only wooden ones.
A druid who wears prohibited armor or carries a prohibited shield is unable to cast druid spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.
Druid
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th

1st|
+0|
+1|
+0|
+1|Nature Sense, Wild Empathy|3|0*

2nd|
+0.5|
+1.5|
+0|
+1.5|Animal Companion|3|1|-

3rd|
+1|
+1.5|
+0.5|
+1.5|Woodland Stride|4|2|-|-

4th|
+1.5|
+2|
+0.5|
+2|Trackless Step|4|2|-|-|-

5th|
+1.5|
+2|
+0.5|
+2||4|2|1|-|-|-

6th|
+2|
+2.5|
+1|
+2.5|Resist Nature's Lure|5|3|2|-|-|-|-

7th|
+2.5|
+2.5|
+1|
+2.5|Wild Shape (1/Day)|5|3|2|-|-|-|-|-

8th|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3||5|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|
+3|
+3|
+1.5|
+3|Wild Shape 2/Day|5|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|
+3.5|
+3.5|
+1.5|
+3.5|Wild Shape 3/Day|6|4|3|2|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|
+4|
+3.5|
+1.5|
+3.5||6|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-

12th|
+4.5|
+4|
+2|
+4|Wild Shape (Large)|6|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-

13th|
+4.5|
+4|
+2|
+4|Venom Immunity|6|4|4|3|2|-|-|-|-|-

14th|
+5|
+4.5|
+2|
+4.5||6|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-

15th|
+5.5|
+4.5|
+2.5|
+4.5|Wild Shape (4/Day)|6|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-

16th|
+6|
+5|
+2.5|
+5|Wild Shape (Tiny)|6|4|4|4|3|2|-|-|-|-

17th|
+6|
+5|
+2.5|
+5||6|5|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-

18th|
+6.5|
+5.5|
+3|
+5.5|Wild Shape (Plant)|6|5|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-

19th|
+7|
+5.5|
+3|
+5.5|A Thousand Faces|6|5|4|4|4|3|2|-|-|-

20th|
+7.5|
+6|
+3|
+6||6|5|5|4|4|3|2|1|-|-[/table]
*At a level when a Druid gains 0 spells per day of a given spell level he gains only those spells per day he would get from a high wisdom score.

Beguiler
Hit Die: d3
Skill Points: 3 + Half Int Modifier per level, x4 at first level
Class Skills: The Beguiler's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str) Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex) Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (N/A), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency Beguilers are proficient with all simple weapons plus the hand crossbow, rapier, short sword, and shortbow. Beguiler's are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Beguiler
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+1|Armored Mage, Trapfinding|5|3

2nd|
+0.5|
+0|
+0|
+1.5||6|4|-

3rd|
+0.5|
+0.5|
+0.5|
+1.5|Cloaked Casting (+1 DC), surprise casting|6|5|-|-

4th|
+1|
+0.5|
+0.5|
+2|Advanced Learning|6|5|-|-|-

5th|
+1|
+0.5|
+0.5|
+2||6|6|3|-|-|-

6th|
+1.5|
+1|
+1|
+2.5||6|6|4|-|-|-|-

7th|
+1.5|
+1|
+1|
+2.5|Silent Spell|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-

8th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3||6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|
+2|
+1.5|
+1.5|
+3|Surprise casting (move action)|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|
+2.5|
+1.5|
+1.5|
+3.5|Advanced Learning|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|
+2.5|
+1.5|
+1.5|
+3.5||6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-|-

12th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+4|Cloaked Casting (+2 to overcome SR)|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-

13th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+4||6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-

14th|
+3.5|
+2|
+2|
+4.5||6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-

15th|
+3.5|
+2.5|
+2.5|
+4.5|Still Spell|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-

16th|
+4|
+2.5|
+2.5|
+5|Advanced Learning|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-

17th|
+4|
+2.5|
+2.5|
+5||6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-

18th|
+4.5|
+3|
+3|
+5.5||6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-

19th|
+4.5|
+3|
+3|
+5.5||6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-

20th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+6||6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-[/table]
Warblade

Hit Die: d6
Skills 2 + Half Int Modifier/level, four time that much at first level
Class Skills: The Warbladeís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration, Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (History) (Int), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Martial Lore (?), and Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency A Warblade is proficient with all simple and martial melee weapons (including those that can be used as thrown weapons), with Light and Medium Armor, and with all Shields (except Tower Shields)
Warblade
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Redied|Stances Known

1st|
+0.5|
+1|
+0|
+0|Battle Clarity (Reflex Saves), Weapon Apptitude|3|3|1

2nd|
+1|
+1.5|
+0|
+0||3|3|1

3rd|
+1.5|
+1.5|
+0.5|
+0.5|Uncanny Dodge|4|3|1

4th|
+2|
+2|
+0.5|
+0.5|Battle Ardor (Critical Confirmation)|4|3|1

5th|
+2.5|
+2|
+0.5|
+0.5||5|3|1

6th|
+3|
+2.5|
+1|
+1||5|4|2

7th|
+3.5|
+2.5|
+1|
+1|Bonus Feat|5|4|2

8th|
+4|
+3|
+1|
+1||6|4|2

9th|
+4.5|
+3|
+1.5|
+1.5|Improved Uncanny Dodge|6|4|2

10th|
+5|
+3.5|
+1.5|
+1.5|Battle Cunning (Damage)|6|4|2

11th|
+5.5|
+3.5|
+1.5|
+1.5||7|4|2

12th|
+6|
+4|
+2|
+2|||7|4|2

13th|
+6.5|
+4|
+2|
+2|Bonus Feat|7|4|2

14th|
+7|
+4.5|
+2|
+2||8|4|2

15th|
+7.5|
+4.5|
+2.5|
+2.5||8|5|3

16th|
+8|
+5|
+2.5|
+2.5|Battle Skill (Opposed Checks)|8|5|3

17th|
+8.5|
+5|
+2.5|
+2.5||9|5|3

18th|
+9|
+5.5|
+3|
+3||9|5|3

19th|
+9.5|
+5.5|
+3|
+3|Bonus Feat|10|5|3

20th|
+10|
+6|
+3|
+3||10|5|3[/table]
More to come latter, any feedback would be appreciated.
Edit history: Original post only contained Fighter. Edit: Minor Clarification Edit 2: Rogue Added. Edit 3: Added the Monk, but no special abilities yet. Not sure how much I should give them. Edit 4: Added the Wizard. Removed the Monk until I can figure out how to table him (special abilities progression is finalized, however). Edit 5: Added the Cleric Edit 6: Fixed the Rogue. Edit 7: Cleanup and Rules Clarification Edit 8:Clarifcation on unlisted abilities. Edit 9: Added note on epic levels and clarified level dependent abilities. Edit 10: Added Sorcerer Edit 11: Added Sorcerer Spells Known and note on using my homebrew Sorcerer Edit 12: Added Paladin Edit 13: I now understand how to do Tables on this site. Monk finished. Edit 14: Added Weapon and Armor Proficiencies. Not sure how I missed that. Also added alignment restrictions to the Paladin, Cleric, and Monk. Edit 15: Added Ranger. Edit 16: Added the Barbarian Edit 17: Added the Druid. Almost there! Edit 18: Did Warblade and Beguiler for my game, so I am adding them.

Soterion
2010-01-11, 10:56 PM
You also may not take levels in a a class that you have already taken as one-half of a Dual-Class.

I'm not entirely clear what you mean by this. Could you please elaborate a little bit? Do you mean that if I Dual-Class fighter/rogue, I can't take any levels in fighter or rogue? Because it sounds to me like what you have here is some kind of new class, not a true dual class. In essence, you've invented the "fighterogue", which means I can be a fighter, a rogue, a fighterogue, a fighter/rogue, but not a fighterogue/rogue or a fighterogue/fighter. I guess what I'm saying is that if this is going to work, be careful to make sure the benefits from being a fighterogue outweigh the benefits from multi-classing. I guess I'm not entirely clear on what this restriction is trying to accomplish, sorry.

Ihala
2010-01-11, 11:32 PM
I see what you are doing, but I also noticed that there are some prestige classes that more or less fuse two classes together. In my games I have prestige classes that are built to more or less require you to have 3 levels in 2 different classes and it then gives a hybrid of the abilities of each class. So you can be a wizard 3/fighter 3/fighter-wizard 16. It turns out that you cast spells as a 17th level wizard and fight as a 16th level fighter at level 20.

I like this idea, and if you can get it to work well I might consider adopting it. One thing I don't like about 3rd edition is that multiclassing doesn't let my converted magic-user thief do the things he once could. When he once had the abilities of a 11th level thief and 10th level magic user, when converted he was only level 8 in each. I admit, he went from fighting as a 11th level thief to being the equal of a 10th level fighter and got a huge chuck of extra hit points, but that is more due to WotC's poorly thought out conversion rules than anything else.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-01-11, 11:35 PM
I'll be honest...the fractions give me a headache just from looking at that table. It may be a strong system, but I know I'm not using anything where simply looking at the table gives me a headache...

Soterion
2010-01-11, 11:37 PM
I'll be honest...the fractions give me a headache just from looking at that table. It may be a strong system, but I know I'm not using anything where simply looking at the table gives me a headache...

He should use decimals instead. Or imaginary numbers! "Okay, so you've got +4 to your hit, plus a 6+3i modifier to your weapons proficiency..."

Masterclick
2010-01-12, 01:28 AM
He should use decimals instead. Or imaginary numbers! "Okay, so you've got +4 to your hit, plus a 6+3i modifier to your weapons proficiency..."

Don't forget to divide by Pi.

Temotei
2010-01-12, 01:44 AM
Don't forget to divide by Pi.

Indeed. Then divide the pie. I'm starving. :thog: thog like pie

Drolyt
2010-01-12, 07:59 AM
Wow, I went to bed last night before this was even slightly done, maybe I shouldn't have posted it till I had more, but I'll try to answer everyone's questions:

I'm not entirely clear what you mean by this. Could you please elaborate a little bit? Do you mean that if I Dual-Class fighter/rogue, I can't take any levels in fighter or rogue? Because it sounds to me like what you have here is some kind of new class, not a true dual class. In essence, you've invented the "fighterogue", which means I can be a fighter, a rogue, a fighterogue, a fighter/rogue, but not a fighterogue/rogue or a fighterogue/fighter. I guess what I'm saying is that if this is going to work, be careful to make sure the benefits from being a fighterogue outweigh the benefits from multi-classing. I guess I'm not entirely clear on what this restriction is trying to accomplish, sorry.
I was tired and I couldn't figure out how to word this properly. Fighter/Rogue would essentially be like a new class, but not only can you not take fighterrogue/fighter (not sure how that would even work mechanically, but maybe you're not seeing the whole picture since I posted so little), but once you take Fighter/Rogue you cannot ever take levels in either Fighter or Rogue, and vice versa. This is partially about balance and partially because some classes have abilities that will advance different in a Dual-Class and it would be confusing otherwise. Edit: Re-reading your post I think you in fact understood perfectly, but the way you worded it confused me. The idea is you can't multiclass Fighterrogue with either Rogue or Fighter.

I see what you are doing, but I also noticed that there are some prestige classes that more or less fuse two classes together. In my games I have prestige classes that are built to more or less require you to have 3 levels in 2 different classes and it then gives a hybrid of the abilities of each class. So you can be a wizard 3/fighter 3/fighter-wizard 16. It turns out that you cast spells as a 17th level wizard and fight as a 16th level fighter at level 20.

I like this idea, and if you can get it to work well I might consider adopting it. One thing I don't like about 3rd edition is that multiclassing doesn't let my converted magic-user thief do the things he once could. When he once had the abilities of a 11th level thief and 10th level magic user, when converted he was only level 8 in each. I admit, he went from fighting as a 11th level thief to being the equal of a 10th level fighter and got a huge chuck of extra hit points, but that is more due to WotC's poorly thought out conversion rules than anything else.
Are you saying you homebrewed PrCs, or are you talking about things like the Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge? This idea should work better than those prestige classes, since you will gain those abilities from level one, rather than sucking until level 6. It will also be better than many such prestige classes, which are horribly underpowered (I'm looking at you Mystic Theurge).

I'll be honest...the fractions give me a headache just from looking at that table. It may be a strong system, but I know I'm not using anything where simply looking at the table gives me a headache...
Without the fractions a lot of combinations would be screwed, but maybe I should make it so only whole numbers and whole numbers .5 are shown, that would be sufficient information to calculate your BAB and saves correctly.

He should use decimals instead. Or imaginary numbers! "Okay, so you've got +4 to your hit, plus a 6+3i modifier to your weapons proficiency..."
As above, I think I'll restrict myself to .5s in the future.

Don't forget to divide by Pi.
Look, I don't have a problem with imaginary numbers, my computer can't run without them, but dividing by irrational numbers is a pain. Just no.

Indeed. Then divide the pie. I'm starving. thog like pie
NO PIE FOR THOG! GET BACK ON TOPIC AS SOON AS I UPDATE THE OP!
Edit: Removed the fractions to make the table clearer, do you think maybe I don't need even the .5s? It will make dual-classing slightly weaker at certain levels to get rid of them, but it evens out in the end. Also gave the Half-Fighter more bonus feats. Rogue should be up in a few minutes.

Drolyt
2010-01-12, 11:40 AM
The Rogue underwent a major overhaul, so this post is obsolete. I'm leaving it here for future reference, and I'll redo the Thug (Fighter/Rogue) in a future post.
Added the Rogue. In case anyone is still confused here is an example of a Fighter/Rogue, which we will call a Thug :

Hit Die: d8
Skills Per Level: 5 + Int Modifier, x4 at first level
Class Skills: The Thug's Class Skills are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex) Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).
Thug
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+1|
+1|
+0|Bonus Feat, Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding

2nd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+0|

3rd|
+2|
+2|
+2|
+1|Bonus Feat, Trap Sense +1

4th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+1|Sneak Attack +2d6, Evasion

5th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+1|

6th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+2|Bonus Feat, Trap Sense +2

7th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+3|
+2|Sneak Attack +3d6

8th|
+7/+2|
+4|
+4|
+2|Uncanny Dodge

9th|
+7/+2|
+4|
+4|
+3|Bonus Feat, Trap Sense +3

10th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+3|Sneak Attack +4d6

11th|
+9/+4|
+5|
+5|
+3|

12th|
+10/+5|
+6|
+5|
+4|Bonus Feat, Trap Sense +4

13th|
+11/+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+4|Sneak Attack +5d6

14th|
+12/+7/+2|
+6|
+6|
+4|

15th|
+13/+8/+3|
+7|
+7|
+5|Bonus Feat, Trap Sense +5

16th|
+14/+9/+4|
+7|
+7|
+5|Sneak Attack +6d6, Improved Uncanny Dodge

17th|
+15/+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+5|

18th|
+15/+10/+5|
+8|
+8|
+6|Bonus Feat, Trap Sense +6

19th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+8|
+8|
+6|Sneak Attack +7d6

20th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+9|
+9|
+6|Class Ability[/table]
As you can see, it is strictly better (in combat abilities anyways) than multiclassing an even split of the two classes. This is okay, however, since no one would ever do that, anyone multiclassing is either going to be much weaker (if done poorly) or much stronger (if optimized) than a single class character. On the other hand, how does it compare to either class alone? Compared to the Fighter over 20 levels the Thug gets four less feats, 3 lower base attack bonus, less hit points, and slightly worse Fortitude Saves for slightly better Reflex, many more skills, and several Rogue abilities. The Rogue loses some reflex, some skills, 3d6 Sneak Attack, and all his bonus abilities he gains at levels 10 and after, but gains +2 BAB, more hit points, some Fortitude, and several bonus feats. Almost balanced, but almost certainly slightly stronger than a single class character (though not game breakingly so). If everything works out right the system should make melee classes stronger and spellcasters weaker, forcing everything to gravitate closer to tier 3. If everything works correctly this variant could actually be used to balance the classes in a game where people want to play spellcasters; it while actually make them more versatile, while putting off some of their game breaking powers.

ErrantX
2010-01-12, 03:44 PM
After taking a few minutes to really digest the math here, I have to agree with you that this would bring characters who multiclass down or up towards tier 3 by blending features together in a more smooth fashion. However, pure class casters such as druids, wizards, clerics and so on are still going to excel no matter what you do. I like this idea, and despite my personal distaste at fractional BAB/Saves, I think you've found a way to make it work. I'd like to see more as you put it together! :)

-X

Ihala
2010-01-12, 04:09 PM
Are you saying you homebrewed PrCs, or are you talking about things like the Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge? This idea should work better than those prestige classes, since you will gain those abilities from level one, rather than sucking until level 6. It will also be better than many such prestige classes, which are horribly underpowered (I'm looking at you Mystic Theurge).

I mean that I have a homebrew prestige class for most every combination of two classes, theoretically. In actuality they are only made as they become necessary, meaning when PC wants to play a multiclass character.

As a comparison, in my game a rogue 3/fighter 3/fighter-rouge 14 has 2 more BAB than your 20th level thug, 23 more skills points assuming starting as a rogue, 5 if starting as fighter, one more bonus feat, the same average sneak attack damage, 1 less average hit point if beginning as rogue, 1 more if beginning as fighter, and +1 more to fortitude and reflex. So they are quite similar.

If you stat out each of the 11 classes as you did the fighter in the first post I would be very tempted to steal them and use them to replace my system. I am not intimidated by your fractions but instead like them and actually have considered making all level dependent bonuses fractions to prevent level four characters from being able to have +8 save bonuses but no base attack bonus (more relevant to my Star Wars game than D&D).

TabletopNuke
2010-01-12, 05:04 PM
Are you familiar with the gestalt class (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) system from Unearthed Arcana? This is something of a powered-down version.

Spellcasting will pose a problem. With this system, what's to stop everyone from dual-classing as a spellcaster? Other class features increase at a reduced rate, is spellcasting going to be the same?

Prestige classes will most likely need to be reworked as well.

Another problem (which I encountered when running a gestalt campaign) is level adjustments. How do they fit in with with these?

Temotei
2010-01-12, 05:35 PM
The rogue only gets a +5.5 Reflex bonus while the fighter gets +6 to Fortitude? Why?

Also...fractions...blech. Just say "use fractional BAB rules" or something.

It's an interesting concept. I'll be waiting to critique more.

Cute_Riolu
2010-01-12, 05:44 PM
After taking a few minutes to really digest the math here, I have to agree with you that this would bring characters who multiclass down or up towards tier 3 by blending features together in a more smooth fashion. However, pure class casters such as druids, wizards, clerics and so on are still going to excel no matter what you do. I like this idea, and despite my personal distaste at fractional BAB/Saves, I think you've found a way to make it work. I'd like to see more as you put it together! :)

-X

Actually... assuming he made the casters at a slower progression as he did everything else, it might work out pretty nicely.

Drolyt
2010-01-12, 05:45 PM
The rogue only gets a +5.5 Reflex bonus while the fighter gets +6 to Fortitude? Why?

That's what we call a mistake. Should be 6.

ErrantX
2010-01-12, 05:55 PM
Actually... assuming he made the casters at a slower progression as he did everything else, it might work out pretty nicely.

That's again assuming they multiclass. If everyone is forced to multiclass it works, but I just wanna be a straight up fighter or wizard, this curve is off.

-X

Owrtho
2010-01-12, 06:29 PM
You might want to specify that each gains + half int mod skill points. As written, they should gain twice int mod skill points.

Also, I'd find it interesting to try something like a shadowcaster rouge. Are you only planning to do the core base classes, or some of the base classes from other sources as well?

Owrtho

Drolyt
2010-01-18, 08:52 AM
Huge update! Revised the Rogue, added the Wizard and the Cleric, and greatly clarified the rules for using this system, all in the OP. In this post I will answer some unanswered questions and provide another good example of how this system works, how to build the Mystic Theurge from my system!

You might want to specify that each gains + half int mod skill points. As written, they should gain twice int mod skill points.

Also, I'd find it interesting to try something like a shadowcaster rouge. Are you only planning to do the core base classes, or some of the base classes from other sources as well?

Owrtho
I clarified the skill points. I am only currently planning on the core classes, I might do some other ones but if anyone wants to do some of the non core classes they are free to do so.

Are you familiar with the gestalt class system from Unearthed Arcana? This is something of a powered-down version.

Spellcasting will pose a problem. With this system, what's to stop everyone from dual-classing as a spellcaster? Other class features increase at a reduced rate, is spellcasting going to be the same?

Prestige classes will most likely need to be reworked as well.

Another problem (which I encountered when running a gestalt campaign) is level adjustments. How do they fit in with with these?
I am familiar with those rules and I am currently playing in a gestalt game as a Sorcadin. Of course spellcasters will have slower progression, you can check that out now that I have the Wizard and Cleric up. There will have to be several changes to prestige classes. Level adjustments work normally with this system, though a DM might allow the following house rule: Double your level adjustment. However, instead of being completely dead those levels are now filled by only one half of a Dual-Class. That might make high level adjustment monsters suck less as PCs, but it would be hard to figure out what happens if you want to continue in that class afterwords. As for Gestalt games, I would rule that level adjustments are like dead levels, that is if you have a +4 LA then you have four levels where you only gain one class instead of two.
Alright here's the Wizard/Cleric (Mystic Theurge)

Hit Die: d6
Skill Points/Level: 2 + Int Modifier
Class Skills: The Mystic Theurge's class skills are The wizardís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Mystic Theurge
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th

1st|
+0|
+1|
+0|
+2|Familiar, Turn or Rebuke Undead|3/3|0*/0*+1

2nd|
+1|
+1|
+0|
+3|Scribe Scroll|3/3|1/1+1|-

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3||4/4|2/2+1|-|-

4th|
+2|
+2|
+1|
+4||4/4|2/2+1|-|-|-

5th|
+2|
+2|
+1|
+4||4/4|2/2+1|1/1+1|-|-|-

6th|
+3|
+3|
+2|
+5||4/5|3/3+1|2/2+1|-|-|-|-

7th|
+4|
+3|
+2|
+5|Bonus Feat|4/5|3/3+1|2/2+1|-|-|-|-|-

8th|
+5|
+4|
+2|
+6||4/5|3/3+1|2/2+1|1/1+1|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|
+5|
+4|
+3|
+6||4/5|3/3+1|3/3+1|2/2+1|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+3|
+7||4/6|4/4+1|3/3+1|2/2+1|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+3|
+7||4/6|4/4+1|3/3+1|2/2+1|1/1+1|-|-|-|-|-

12th|
+7/+2|
+6|
+4|
+8||4/6|4/4+1|3/3+1|3/3+1|2/2+1|-|-|-|-|-

13th|
+7/+2|
+6|
+4|
+8||4/6|4/4+1|4/4+1|3/3+1|2/2+1|-|-|-|-|-

14th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+4|
+9|Bonus Feat|4/6|4/4+1|4/4+1|3/3+1|2/2+1|1/1+1|-|-|-|-

15th|
+9/+4|
+7|
+5|
+9||4/6|4/4+1|4/4+1|3/3+1|3/3+1|2/2+1|-|-|-|-

16th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+5|
+10||4/6|4/4+1|4/4+1|4/4+1|3/3+1|2/2+1|-|-|-|-

17th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+5|
+10||4/6|4/5+1|4/4+1|4/4+1|3/3+1|2/2+1|1/1+1|-|-|-

18th|
+11/+6/+1|
+8|
+6|
+11||4/6|4/5+1|4/4+1|4/4+1|3/3+1|3/3+1|2/2+1|-|-|-

19th|
+11/+6/+1|
+8|
+6|
+11||4/6|4/5+1|4/4+1|4/4+1|4/4+1|3/3+1|2/2+1|-|-|-

20th|
+12/+7/+2|
+9|
+6|
+12||4/6|4/5+1|4/5+1|4/4+1|4/4+1|3/3+1|2/2+1|1/1+1|-|-[/table]
For spells per day the number left of the slash is Wizard spells and right of the slash is Cleric Spells. *Where a 0 is listed your spells per day consist only of bonus spells per day for a high ability score.

Compared to Mutliclassing Cleric 3/Wizard 3/ Mystic Theurge X, this variant casts at a higher level until 9th level, at which point both this variant and a Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 3 both cast as if they were 6th level Clerics and 6th level Wizards. After that the Mystic Theurge casts better, so that at 20th level a Wizard 5/Cleric 5/ Mystic Theurge 10 casts as a 15th level caster in both classes, while my Dual-Classing Wizard/Cleric casts as a 13th level Wizard and a 13th level Cleric. The Mystic Theurge pulls ahead fast at first, but peters out after you reach level ten in that class and have to choose one of the other classes. Note that you could instead have 17th level casting in either Wizard or Cleric and 13th in the other, which is clearly superior to my variant. On the other hand my variant has better Fortitude saves, better BAB, possibly better Reflex saves, can Turn or Rebuke Undead as a Cleric of his level, has full Familiar progression, two Wizard Bonus Feats, more hit points, a larger class skill list, full progression of Domain abilities that rely on Cleric level, and a higher caster level. The Dual-Classing Mystic Theurge surpasses the multiclassing Mystic Theurge at 30th level and beyond. Overall Dual-Classing results in smoother progression and more balance at any given level. Finally I would like to point out that the proper way to handle prestige classes that give +1 casting at every level is to increase both the Cleric and Wizard progression at each level. So a Mystic Theurge 10 Loremaster 10 would cast the same as a Mystic Theurge 20. This gives huge flexibility in character design compared to the method of dual-progression prestige classes.

Drolyt
2010-01-19, 10:36 PM
Added Warblade and Beguiler. Someday I will do the Bard. I need feedback on one thing though: As written Martial classes will be able to Initiate Higher level Maneuvers normally, since Initiator level still equals class level. Should I change that?