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sobebop
2010-01-12, 10:43 AM
The mage hand ability is not clear when it comes to line of sight, or if line of sight is needed... it just says you can pick up/hold an adjacent object up to 20lbs...

In the example im trying to clarify a door was shut and blocked by a chair... the mage used mage hand to move the chair. now if the mage can look through the keyhole then fine and dandy. but if there is no line of sight, does the adjacent rule out weigh LoS?

If so, the ability seems pretty powerful to me. I would say LoS is needed, for one the PC is not going to know there is a chair blocking the door, so how would he know to remove it?

Anyway before I start ranting, please let me know your thoughts. thank you.

Sipex
2010-01-12, 10:45 AM
I can't remember how this works but I believe you do need line of sight, regardless...or possibly line of effect even.

I can't remember the definition for line of effect though, I think it's pretty similar to line of sight.

dsmiles
2010-01-12, 10:48 AM
I'm fairly certain that you have to have line of effect (or line of sight at a minimum) to the area where you cast a spell.

What's the sound of one mage hand clapping? :smallbiggrin:

Theodoric
2010-01-12, 10:50 AM
The mage hand must first be conjured within a square. And to target a square, you must have Line of Effect (page 273) to it. :smallwink:

sobebop
2010-01-12, 10:55 AM

Sipex
2010-01-12, 11:11 AM
Now: Question of my own.

You can move the mage hand 5 squares as a move action and it doesn't specify a limit on distance.

What's the limit on line of effect?

I've had my wizard move his mage hand long distances as long as he could see it.

Kurald Galain
2010-01-12, 11:13 AM
Hm. The only limit I can find (PHB 59) states that zones and conjurations must remain within range. I don't see any text requiring them to remain within line of effect. That said, given what "line of effect" means it would be quite reasonable for the DM to require it.

Sipex
2010-01-12, 11:16 AM
I was fine with it, I just want to make sure that I'm playing by the book (you know, letting things work as they're intended, avoids confusing houseruleshenanigans later if that player moves to other campaigns)

dsmiles
2010-01-12, 11:30 AM
I still want to know:

What's the sound of one mage hand clapping?

Kurald Galain
2010-01-12, 11:31 AM
I still want to know:

What's the sound of one mage hand clapping?

"Cl."

The other hand makes the "ap".

Sipex
2010-01-12, 11:31 AM
Depends on the DM.

If you pushed me to hard it would be the sound of the universe imploding as the hand tries to alter reality to perform the impossible task.

Then the pop when everything returns to normal like nothing happened.

sobebop
2010-01-12, 11:38 AM
That is what i was thinking... the rules are pretty vague actually and yes the DM can always make the final call.

But if the hand has already been summoned, does it need LoS/LoE... if you cant see something that does not mean its not adjacent to you! but that interpretation makes the power very strong IMO.

Mando Knight
2010-01-12, 11:55 AM
If so, the ability seems pretty powerful to me. I would say LoS is needed, for one the PC is not going to know there is a chair blocking the door, so how would he know to remove it?

Not only does the door block Line of Sight, it also blocks Line of Effect, regardless of how the power is stated. If you were to somehow conjure the hand on the other side of the door, but still lack Line of Sight to the chair, you will require some means of finding the chair to move it. All told, if the lack of Line of Effect is resolved, I would require a Minor action (same as a Perception check) to find the chair, and then the same action normally required to remove the chair to actually move it.

Burley
2010-01-12, 12:10 PM
I still want to know:

What's the sound of one mage hand clapping?

It wouldn't happen. Clapping is not on the list of actions a mage hand can perform.

sobebop
2010-01-12, 12:23 PM
IDK if mage hands make any noise at all!! I suspect they are quiet, no? The question is, if a mage hand falls in the woods, does it make a sound? again, id say no. ;P

TricksyAndFalse
2010-01-12, 12:29 PM
I'm AFB, but I believe you need to maintain LoE to your conjurations each round, or they vanish. The rules would be in the conjurations clarification in PHBII.

Ograbme
2010-01-12, 12:59 PM
Last time I checked, there was debate over whether mage hand could even move vertically. Sorry Halfling, that can of pringles will be forever out of your reach.

Freylorn
2010-01-12, 01:00 PM
I still want to know:

What's the sound of one mage hand clapping?

Whatever your casting of ghost sound makes it sound like.

DabblerWizard
2010-01-12, 10:57 PM
A DM friend of mine, and I, interpret Mage hand's distance limitations according to the range given on the power itself: 5 (squares). You conjure the hand within 5 squares of you, and it can only travel up to 5 squares away from you.

Just to clarify a related point:

-- Line of sight has to do with, what you can see, and how far you can see.

You can't see through solid walls, and others can have either partial or total concealment because of things like trees, big rocks, certain powers.

-- Line of effect has to do with, where you can direct attacks, and to whom you can direct attacks (i.e. spells, powers, etc).

Imagine that a monster is hiding just around a corner. Even without seeing the monster, you're allowed to cast a blast attack (for instance) into whatever area you want, as long as you stay within the attack's range.

For LOS, I assume that a character can see off into the distance indefinitely, up until their eyes come upon an obstruction.

For LOE, I depend on a power's range to let me know how far out the power has an effect.

An interesting flip in the LOE, LOS rules occurs with the Eladrin racial power Fey Step, which allows you to teleport up to 5 squares away. This 5 square distance is only determined in the Effect description. Fey Step doesn't have a "Range: 5" marker. So one might argue that the power has an infinite LOE. Though it's not labeled as "range", the power does have one, and it is "Personal". Doesn't this mean that Fey Step is useless because it has no LOE beyond the square the character stands in?

Luckily the specific teleportation rules suggest that you focus on LOS, instead of LOE, to determine teleportation effects.

Mando Knight
2010-01-12, 11:08 PM
Luckily the specific teleportation rules suggest that you focus on LOS, instead of LOE, to determine teleportation effects.

No, teleportation rules outright state that you do not need Line of Effect to the target so long as you can see it. That's the point of teleportation. Some teleportation powers waive even that requirement, allowing you to jump somewhere you can't even see.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-12, 11:15 PM
Actually, Rat from the comic "pearls before swine" knows Exactly what the sound of one hand clapping sounds like.:smallamused:

Kurald Galain
2010-01-13, 03:47 AM
An interesting flip in the LOE, LOS rules occurs with the Eladrin racial power Fey Step, which allows you to teleport up to 5 squares away. This 5 square distance is only determined in the Effect description. Fey Step doesn't have a "Range: 5" marker. So one might argue that the power has an infinite LOE.
That's not what LOE means. Lines are by definition infinite. Fey Step clearly specifies that you must teleport to a spot up to five squares away, so there's nothing infinite about that.

Powers don't have LOE, characters have LOE. And for most but not all powers, the character who uses it must have LOE to its target.

Luckily the specific teleportation rules suggest that you focus on LOS, instead of LOE, to determine teleportation effects.
Incorrect. Teleportation explicitly requires LOS, not LOE. This means that yes, you can teleport through a wall of force.