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View Full Version : Blade Barrier? Seriously? Blade Barrier....



Beelzebub1111
2010-01-14, 08:47 PM
I just noticed this. Just how did Blade Barrier make it into the Good Domain? Surely there can be a more appropriate [good] spell at 6th level to put there...

Can anybody tell me why this spell is in that domain?

Gorbash
2010-01-14, 08:49 PM
It's a good spell. :smallbiggrin:

Kallisti
2010-01-14, 08:50 PM
What Gorbash said.

Beelzebub1111
2010-01-14, 08:52 PM
Okay, it is a good spell, but just how is it a [Good] spell?

TheOOB
2010-01-14, 08:53 PM
Because it can be used to protect the weak and innocent?

Temotei
2010-01-14, 08:54 PM
Okay, it is a good spell, but just how is it a [Good] spell?

Wizards of the Coast felt like it, so it was done. Kind of like how they felt like giving the monk a bunch of crappy abilities that have no synergy at all.


Because it can be used to protect the weak and innocent?

So can unholy blight.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-01-14, 08:54 PM
Because it can be used to protect the weak and innocent?

So can the Create Undead Line.

Or any spell, really. Hell, even Mindrape.

Muad'dib
2010-01-14, 08:55 PM
Okay, it is a good spell, but just how is it a [Good] spell?

It's Magic! :O

Gamerlord
2010-01-14, 08:56 PM
This is stupid. :smallannoyed:

It is not what powers you use, its how you use them.
-Kyle katarn

Alignment-based spells (Besides the protect from _____ line) always seemed sort of stupid.

deuxhero
2010-01-14, 08:58 PM
Alignment always seemed sort of stupid.

Kallisti
2010-01-14, 09:00 PM
Perhaps A Deity Did It, which is like A Wizard Did It, only it's also a Deus Ex Machina.

Beelzebub1111
2010-01-14, 09:01 PM
Oh...it's because the ONLY core 6th level spell with the good descriptor is Summon Monster VI... How about that?

taltamir
2010-01-14, 09:03 PM
So can the Create Undead Line.

Or any spell, really. Hell, even Mindrape.

mindrape can be used to cure insanity, remove trauma, educate people rapidly (insert knowledge into their minds), cast it on yourself to cure yourself out of addiction... there are tons of good implementations. And the "victim" can be willing for many of those.

Speaking of... go check up the lust domain in the spell compendium and player guide to faerun... it is granted by the chaotic good goddess sharess...
its ability? you move seductively to gain a bonus to cha for 1 round equal to cleric level, its spells:
Lust Domain Spells
SL1: Charm Person: Makes one person your friend.
SL2: Invisibility: Subject is invisible for 1 min./level or until it attacks.
SL3: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance: Hear or see at a distance for 1 min./level.
SL4: Summon Monster IV: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
SL5: Scrying F: Spies on subject from a distance.
SL6: Symbol of Persuasion M: Triggered rune charms nearby creatures.
SL7: Refuge M: Alters item to transport its possessor to you.
SL8: Sympathy F: Object or location attracts certain creatures.
SL9: Trap the Soul M F: Imprisons subject within gem.

Ok, charm person = rape.
invisibility = voyeurism
Clairaudience/clairvoyance = voyeurism
summon monster = beastiality
scrying = voyeurism
symbol of persuasion = Rape
refuge = create a 1 use teleport item for a willing person to teleport her/him to you or vice versa.
Sympathy = rape / kidnapping
Trap the soul = kidnapping, soul stealing, and raping of outsiders.

refuge is the odd one out here, the rest are just damn creepy for good gods to grant. (or anyone when they are specifically for "lust")

Forever Curious
2010-01-14, 09:03 PM
Perhaps A Deity Did It, which is like A Wizard Did It, only it's also a Deus Ex Machina.

Heh, it's funny because it's literal.

Forever Curious
2010-01-14, 09:05 PM
mindrape can be used to cure insanity, remove trauma, educate people rapidly (insert knowledge into their minds), cast it on yourself to cure yourself out of addiction... there are tons of good implementations. And the "victim" can be willing for many of those.

Speaking of... go check up the lust domain in the spell compendium and player guide to faerun... it is granted by the chaotic good goddess sharess...
its ability? you move seductively to gain a bonus to cha for 1 round equal to cleric level, its spells:
Lust Domain Spells
SL1: Charm Person: Makes one person your friend.
SL2: Invisibility: Subject is invisible for 1 min./level or until it attacks.
SL3: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance: Hear or see at a distance for 1 min./level.
SL4: Summon Monster IV: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
SL5: Scrying F: Spies on subject from a distance.
SL6: Symbol of Persuasion M: Triggered rune charms nearby creatures.
SL7: Refuge M: Alters item to transport its possessor to you.
SL8: Sympathy F: Object or location attracts certain creatures.
SL9: Trap the Soul M F: Imprisons subject within gem.

Ok, charm person = rape.
invisibility = voyeurism
Clairaudience/clairvoyance = voyeurism
summon monster = beastiality
scrying = voyeurism
symbol of persuasion = Rape
refuge = create a 1 use teleport item for a willing person to teleport her/him to you or vice versa.
Sympathy = rape / kidnapping
Trap the soul = kidnapping, soul stealing, and raping of outsiders.

refuge is the odd one out here, the rest are just damn creepy for good gods to grant. (or anyone when they are specifically for "lust")

Not to mention that Lust is considered a sin (for the most part), making the fact that a "good" deity grants it even more unsettling.

Temotei
2010-01-14, 09:07 PM
Not to mention that Lust is considered a sin (for the most part), making the fact that a "good" deity grants it even more unsettling.

Mmm...Lastia.

deuxhero
2010-01-14, 09:10 PM
Not to mention that Lust is considered a sin (for the most part), making the fact that a "good" deity grants it even more unsettling.

Doesn't said deity have Paladins?

Of coarse FR's gods are messed up. Not sure how Lyonsbane is still LN, not LE.

Lysander
2010-01-14, 09:15 PM
Blade Barrier Logic:

Good guys have swords
Therefore, swords are good
Therefore, more swords are best

JaronK
2010-01-14, 09:19 PM
Actually, Hextor put it in there as a prank. That's also why the Shining Blade of Heironeous exists... it's actually Hextor's strawman.

JaronK

taltamir
2010-01-14, 09:25 PM
Blade Barrier Logic:

Good guys have swords
Therefore, swords are good
Therefore, more swords are capital G [Good]

fixed it for you :)

KillianHawkeye
2010-01-14, 09:56 PM
refuge is the odd one out here, the rest are just damn creepy for good gods to grant. (or anyone when they are specifically for "lust")

Obviously, that one is only to be used for booty calls. :smallwink:

taltamir
2010-01-14, 09:58 PM
Obviously, that one is only to be used for booty calls. :smallwink:

doh, how did I miss that?
ok, booty call spell... nice. actually that is by far the nicest and purest of those spells.

mabriss lethe
2010-01-14, 10:28 PM
doh, how did I miss that?
ok, booty call spell... nice. actually that is by far the nicest and purest of those spells.

It's the purest of them because the spell actually requires consent. unlike...pretty much everything else in the domain.

taltamir
2010-01-14, 10:30 PM
It's the purest of them because the spell actually requires consent. unlike...pretty much everything else in the domain.

not pretty much, literally every other spell...
it has 1 spell that requires consent, and 8 spells that bypass consent.

it should be renamed the "rape" domain.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-01-14, 10:54 PM
not pretty much, literally every other spell...
it has 1 spell that requires consent, and 8 spells that bypass consent.

it should be renamed the "rape" domain.

Well, it is "lust" rather than "love" so it does make a fair bit of sense that other creatures' feelings wouldn't be taken into account.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-14, 10:57 PM
So, trap the soul isn't an evil spell? seriously?


.........what the beep?

Sir Homeslice
2010-01-14, 11:01 PM
So, trap the soul isn't an evil spell? seriously?


.........what the beep?

Marriage isn't evil, what are you talking about?

Mystic Muse
2010-01-14, 11:03 PM
Marriage isn't evil, what are you talking about?

...........good one.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-15, 01:29 AM
The only spell I can't think of a single good use for isn't D&D.

It's HADOKEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mystic Muse
2010-01-15, 01:39 AM
Hadoken can be used for self defense and killing evil irredeemable gods.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-15, 01:47 AM
Hadoken can be used for self defense and killing evil irredeemable gods.But it is fueled by raw love. The divorce rate goes up with every shot. Is there any situation in which something, anything, else isn't a better choice than that for a good-aligned character?

Mystic Muse
2010-01-15, 02:08 AM
I thought it was fueled by raw hate. at least if The black mage is anything to go by:smalltongue:

2xMachina
2010-01-15, 02:12 AM
No. He takes love from the universe (none of which is generated by him), and burn it (like burning xp) to fuel Hadoken.

Not sure which page it was, but BM did explain how it worked.

EDIT: Umm, BM, not DM

Mystic Muse
2010-01-15, 02:15 AM
ah. never mind then.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-01-15, 02:50 AM
I always assumed - and I'm reaching here - that Blade Barrier was "Good" because it interposes, preventing enemies from attacking, and damages them if they try to pass through it, rather than being a big AoE like Flame Strike.

That said, when used in vehicle combat - like aboard moving ships - it is horrific. The blades are force effects, and the moving ships pass through the barrier - everyone on board is effected, and those deck hands aren't often more than 1st level...

RebelRogue
2010-01-15, 02:56 AM
That said, when used in vehicle combat - like aboard moving ships - it is horrific. The blades are force effects, and the moving ships pass through the barrier - everyone on board is effected, and those deck hands aren't often more than 1st level...
I've always wondered if D&D obeyed a relativity principle or not. Either way, you get bad stuff happening!

taltamir
2010-01-15, 03:06 PM
Well, it is "lust" rather than "love" so it does make a fair bit of sense that other creatures' feelings wouldn't be taken into account.

what is it you people have against lust? lust is not rape people.
there is nothing wrong with lust in of itself.
"sex friends" is an example of two consenting people who act on lust. actually, all casual sex is a matter of "lust" and not "love"... there is nothing about "rape" or "evil" in casual sex.

it is terrible that out of the 9 spells, 1 is about casual sex, 2 about voyeurism and 6 are about rape. instead of all 9 being about casual sex.

Heliomance
2010-01-15, 03:13 PM
You want the Book of Erotic Fantasy. Or Nymphology: The Book of Blue Magic. One or the other.

Gamerlord
2010-01-15, 03:15 PM
what is it you people have against lust? .

Same thing I have against all romance in general, it is a distraction and a waste of time.

taltamir
2010-01-15, 03:15 PM
You want the Book of Erotic Fantasy. Or Nymphology: The Book of Blue Magic. One or the other.

I... do?
this domain comes straight out of the spell compendium and the players guide to faerun, granted by a good goddess... I don't WANT the book of vileness (BoEF) or nymphology (although, nymphology was an awesome book).


Same thing I have against all romance in general, it is a distraction and a waste of time.

perpetuating the species is a waste of time?

nyarlathotep
2010-01-15, 03:16 PM
what is it you people have against lust? lust is not rape people.
there is nothing wrong with lust in of itself.
"sex friends" is an example of two consenting people who act on lust. actually, all casual sex is a matter of "lust" and not "love"... there is nothing about "rape" or "evil" in casual sex.

it is terrible that out of the 9 spells, 1 is about casual sex, 2 about voyeurism and 6 are about rape. instead of all 9 being about casual sex.

They were never complaining about the lust domain itself being lust, just that most of it involves stalking and rape and that it is granted by a good goddess.

Gamerlord
2010-01-15, 03:16 PM
perpetuating the species is a waste of time?

Yes, yes it is. The species can die out for all I care.

Another_Poet
2010-01-15, 03:21 PM
Same thing I have against all romance in general, it is a distraction and a waste of time.

Uh oh, someone got dumped.

And/or is suffering from unrequited love.

Gamerlord
2010-01-15, 03:23 PM
Uh oh, someone got dumped.

And/or is suffering from unrequited love.

Nope, I never have loved somebody, or vice versa. I just am smarter then the average fool.

Catch
2010-01-15, 03:33 PM
Okay, it is a good spell, but just how is it a [Good] spell?

Back on the subject, it's a not a [Good] spell. It's a [Force] spell.

Like any spell without an alignment descriptor, it can be used for whatever purpose you wish. Like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html).

Remember kids, D&D cares about punctuation: good, Good and [Good] are all different.

ericgrau
2010-01-15, 03:56 PM
Because they forgot to make a [good] 6th level spell besides summon monster.

TheCountAlucard
2010-01-15, 04:05 PM
Actually, looking at it, the only alignment domain to get an alignment-themed sixth-level spell is the Evil domain. Chaos gets Animate Objects, and Law gets Hold Monster.

taltamir
2010-01-15, 04:12 PM
Because they forgot to make a [good] 6th level spell besides summon monster.

well... what is wrong with summon monster?


Actually, looking at it, the only alignment domain to get an alignment-themed sixth-level spell is the Evil domain. Chaos gets Animate Objects, and Law gets Hold Monster.

law = cops = capture a prep unharmed = hold person
chaos = create a mess = imagine how much of a mess animated objects cause in cartoons = animate object.

TheCountAlucard
2010-01-15, 04:15 PM
law = cops = capture a prep unharmed = hold person
chaos = create a mess = imagine how much of a mess animated objects cause in cartoons = animate object.Meh, still a bit of a stretch; I imagine I could come up with a similar justification for why Hold Person would be chaotic/good/evil, and Animate Object would be lawful/good/evil. Really, though, if those spells were supposed to be lawful or chaotic, they'd've labeled them as such.

taltamir
2010-01-15, 04:27 PM
Meh, still a bit of a stretch; I imagine I could come up with a similar justification for why Hold Person would be chaotic/good/evil, and Animate Object would be lawful/good/evil. Really, though, if those spells were supposed to be lawful or chaotic, they'd've labeled them as such.

I agree its a stretch, its a horribly stupid interpretation...but that is what I think that WOTC editors had in mind when they came up with those.

Flarp
2010-01-15, 04:52 PM
Blade Barrier Logic:

Good guys have swords
Therefore, swords are good
Therefore, more swords are best

Actually, the proper syllogism is as follows:

Good guys have swords.
Blade barrier uses swords.
Thus, Blade Barrier is good.

OR

Swords are cool.
The Rule of Cool is god.
Thus, we need more swords.

hamishspence
2010-01-15, 05:21 PM
Speaking of... go check up the lust domain in the spell compendium and player guide to faerun... it is granted by the chaotic good goddess sharess...


It's not in Players Guide to Faerun- only Spell Compendium and Dragon 323.

Every "sin domain" is in Spell Compendium.

And in Dragon 323, every "sin domain" has one or two Good deities that grant it, as well as Neutral and Evil deities.

Call it "even Good deities are a long way from perfect"

Forgotten Realms Campaign setting, on deity alignment, says that their alignments are guidelines- good deities occasionally do evil things, and vice versa.

Devils_Advocate
2010-01-15, 06:38 PM
The alignment domains are kind of silly in practice. See, in 3.5, there are Good-aligned clerics of every Good-aligned deity that get the Good domain, and only Good-aligned clerics of Good-aligned deities get the Good domain. But the Good domain's spells mostly allow you to act against Evil creatures, and being Good doesn't necessarily mean doing that, and doing that doesn't necessarily mean being Good. The Good domain would be entirely appropriate to a Lawful Neutral cleric of St. Cuthbert, for example, but not really to any follower of some Good weird pacifistic deity.

Similarly for the Law, Chaos, and Evil domains.

But apparently being a deity in D&D 3.5 automatically empowers you to act against alignments opposite your own, just like it automatically empowers you to grant your clerics a particular list of spells no matter how unrelated they are to your portfolio. The gods are basically a single race with a fairly specific set of abilities in common. They're a race that it's possible to join (not that this is easy), but that's also true of outsiders created from souls of the deceased, various undead, etc. So it does make a sort of sense, but still, it's kind of weird.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-01-15, 06:41 PM
I've always wondered if D&D obeyed a relativity principle or not. Either way, you get bad stuff happening!
It's explicitly stated in WotC's Stormwrack that ships' movement means that persistent stationary area effects do not move with the ship they were cast on - so that Blade Barrier will move through the whole ship if you drop it just in front of the moving prow.

Bye-bye crew!

JonestheSpy
2010-01-15, 06:50 PM
Actually, looking at it, the only alignment domain to get an alignment-themed sixth-level spell is the Evil domain. Chaos gets Animate Objects, and Law gets Hold Monster.

Actually, the law/chaos domain spells mentioned above are some of the only alignemnt domain spells that make sense and aren't just "use against opposite domain".

Law is about order, predictability, stasis. Holding/paralyzing is a the ultimate law-based attack.

Chaos is about unpredictability, breaking laws, disorder. Inanimate objects flying around captures that essence pretty darn well.

Evard
2010-01-15, 06:52 PM
A houserule a DM of mine once had was that if you picked a domain you can choose the spells for each level as long as they fit into the description of that domain. Basically you are choosing what your personal god wants to be in his domain.

taltamir
2010-01-15, 06:58 PM
It's explicitly stated in WotC's Stormwrack that ships' movement means that persistent stationary area effects do not move with the ship they were cast on - so that Blade Barrier will move through the whole ship if you drop it just in front of the moving prow.

Bye-bye crew!

and yet, somehow an immovable rod does not crash into the planet.

Catch
2010-01-15, 07:33 PM
and yet, somehow an immovable rod does not crash into the planet.

The ship is moving through the area of the spell's effect. You can fluff it however you like, but the principle is that the effect was created in specific squares (or hexes) on the earth (or plane) and a vehicle is simply passing through them.

An immovable rod is occupying one square on the planet, and as that square moves through space, so does the rod.

taltamir
2010-01-15, 07:47 PM
my thought is that the authors just didn't realize that planets actually MOVE...

although, maybe in the DnD cosmology the prime material plane is one single planet at the center of the universe orbited by its own sun... and nothing else.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-15, 09:23 PM
and yet, somehow an immovable rod does not crash into the planet.

I don't know about a kill, but you definitely wounded a catgirl there. I like catgirls :smallfrown:

Gamerlord
2010-01-15, 09:44 PM
How about we chalk this up as yet another problem with alignment?
"It is evil to animate the dead to protect an orphanage, but OK to stomp on lizardfolk babies!"

dyslexicfaser
2010-01-15, 10:17 PM
Doesn't said deity have Paladins?

Would that paladin code involve this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45529) vow? Just a guess.

EDIT: Or perhaps that would be these Knights (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2004-05-17).

Slayn82
2010-01-15, 10:21 PM
Did you people ever read the old testament?

Blade Barrier comes from the bible, along with

Old Testament:
flamestrike, speak with dead, control water, flaming charriot, speak with animals, shout, command, sanctuary, summon monster (actually bears, but well, it counts), animate dead (an entire army even), enthrall, fireball, eagle splendor, tongues, cure/inflict disease, bestow curse, blindness/deafness, remove blindness/deafness, augury (Urin and Purin), discern lies, a lot of Divination, scrying, insect plague, slay living, earthquake, fire storm, create food and water, turning one staff into a serpent.

And something that either is Storm of Vengeance or a Locate City Bomb.

New Testament:
Revive dead, walk on water, control weather, cure disease, cure blindness/deafness, Ethereal Jaunt, Contingency, wither, and a little few other things already covered.

Edited

dyslexicfaser
2010-01-15, 10:24 PM
Didn't Elijah also summon bears?

Roland St. Jude
2010-01-15, 10:36 PM
Sheriff: Please nix the real world religion discussion.

Otodetu
2010-01-15, 11:01 PM
and yet, somehow an immovable rod does not crash into the planet.

Even better when the planet is destroyed by a wall of force; and a wizard did it.

Calculate when the moon is a position that will be passed by earth at some later time, teleport to the moon, survive with necklace of adaption, leave the gravitational pull of the moon, cast wall of force and permanency.

End result is a unstoppable object meeting an immovable force; the wall of force will rip earth a new one.

Sure, there will be complications outside of a thought experiment including a high level wizard and two celestial bodies, but that is not the point, the point is silly.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-15, 11:18 PM
End result is an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object; the wall of force will rip earth a new one.
.

fixed it for you.:smalltongue:

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-01-15, 11:44 PM
fixed it for you.:smalltongue:

No, Otodetu's right; from the perspective of its inhabitants, Earth is pretty much an unstoppable object, and the wall of force is immovable.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 02:11 AM
But it is fueled by raw love. The divorce rate goes up with every shot. Is there any situation in which something, anything, else isn't a better choice than that for a good-aligned character?

Dunno, I view freeing people from bondage as a good act.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-01-16, 04:52 AM
Dunno, I view freeing people from bondage as a good act.

Assuming of course it's not bondage of the succubus variety. :smallwink:

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 08:23 AM
Never really pictured Succubi as the marrying type. Sure, they might be fun to date, but you really want to bring a lawful good fey girl home to meet the parents.

Melamoto
2010-01-16, 08:41 AM
What about a Lawful Good Succubus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a)? All the benefits of a succubus without the unrelenting evil.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-16, 11:34 AM
Never really pictured Succubi as the marrying type. Sure, they might be fun to date, but you really want to bring a lawful good fey girl home to meet the parents.

Wrong bondage. :smallredface: