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View Full Version : [3.5] paladin question. hopefully much funnies.



juggalotis
2010-01-16, 10:58 AM
i dont know about anyone else but personally my dm seems to go out of his way to ensure any paladin falls in his campaigns. does anybody else find this common if so post the most ridiculous example you can remember. mine being "you didnt run back into the burning building to check for any leftover survivors, youve fallen from your gods favor"

Starbuck_II
2010-01-16, 11:00 AM
Seriously? Is that time of the month again: Pally thread time?

I've never played one personally due to seeing that stuff happen to others.
If you Pally fails alot: you should just prepare for Blackguard (why not he wants you to be one).

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-16, 11:01 AM
I recommend a Phylactary of Faithfulness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#phylacteryofFaithfulness). Should keep you from ever falling for just 1,000 GP.

bosssmiley
2010-01-16, 11:10 AM
I recommend a Phylactary of Faithfulness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#phylacteryofFaithfulness). Should keep you from ever falling for just 1,000 GP.

You know a particular problem player type (in this case Paladin Tripping DMs) is prevalent when there's an SRD magic item designed to spoil their jerkfun antics. :smallamused:

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-16, 11:16 AM
Smite the DM

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-16, 11:26 AM
Go overboard with it. As soon as your god no longer sees you as being worthy, Chaotic EVIL. You NEED to feel the touch of the Divine on you and you WILL get that fix, even if it has to come from the most tainted vile demons around and isn't the real deal. Start with the clergy of your ex-god, and the orphans.


But honestly, that kind of BS is why I'll never play a pally, because every DM will get it into their head that making you fall would be a cool plot point. Being denied class features =/= fun.

Soranar
2010-01-16, 11:27 AM
falling Paladins is just a fun way to roleplay for XP and become a blackguard ;)

or just play a variant with different alignment and avoid the whole problem (I find a paladin of freedom , or a paladin of vengeance a lot simpler to play)

Melamoto
2010-01-16, 11:33 AM
or just play a variant with different alignment and avoid the whole problem (I find a paladin of freedom , or a paladin of vengeance a lot simpler to play)

Regular Paladin = Lawful Stupid
Paladin of Freedom = Chaotic Stupid

I'd rather have the former tbh.

Andras
2010-01-16, 11:41 AM
Regular Paladin = Lawful Stupid
Paladin of Freedom = Chaotic Stupid

I'd rather have the former tbh.

The latter falls less easily.

Soranar
2010-01-16, 11:57 AM
why so much hate for the poor Paladin? and OOTS has proven that Good doesn't always equal stupid

bad roleplaying though...

juggalotis
2010-01-16, 11:59 AM
no hate from me. i love paladins. just dun like every dm's personal goal to drop them from the light of their gods.

PallElendro
2010-01-16, 12:01 PM
Meh. Basically, I just do whatever Good Guys can. I try at Lawful Good, stick to the code, and always be a martyr to the Good guys' cause.

juggalotis
2010-01-16, 12:04 PM
sadly thats often not enough. as seen in my example in first post where i was expected to risk nearly certain death on a possibility.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-16, 12:04 PM
I remember a story in the bad DMs thread.

DM: a guy approaches you and hands you a coin.
character: thanks what's this for?
DM: you fall
Player: WHAT?!?!?!
DM: he's evil and you associated with him therefore you fall.

as you can imagine the player left.

snoopy13a
2010-01-16, 12:06 PM
But honestly, that kind of BS is why I'll never play a pally, because every DM will get it into their head that making you fall would be a cool plot point. Being denied class features =/= fun.

Not every DM.

Still, a player shouldn't play a Paladin unless all of the other players and the DM are on board. This would probably mean a party that is committed to good and would likely agree with the paladin 95% of the time. It also means a DM who is not looking to trip up the paladin's player.

Otherwise, you're better off playing a lawful good cleric or something.

Mando Knight
2010-01-16, 12:34 PM
Otherwise, you're better off playing a lawful good cleric or something.

Unfortunately for Paladins, you are anyway. Clerics, despite being granted more power from their deities than Paladins, don't have an entire section devoted to their code of conduct that allows jerk-DMs to twist their words into making them lose their class features.

Flickerdart
2010-01-16, 12:37 PM
Frankly, Druids and Clerics should be falling just as often as Paladins. If I had a DM like that, I'd roll up a NG Druid and start burning down orphanages because it encourages natural selection.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-16, 01:10 PM
Unfortunately some people, and I'm thinking more and more that they may be in the majority, just don't like the paladin concept. If your dm happens to be one of these people your paladin will almost certainly fall. The problem stems from the fact that a paladin comes with certain role-playing baggage, that gets on some peoples nerves. The advice I generally give is: if you want to play a class that is going to impose restrictions on the entire party, you need to talk it out with your group first, and if they're not okay with it you should probably consider something else, ie: you want to make a paladin, your group says that they don't want to be castrated by the pally's CoC, so you decide to play a fighter/cleric instead, because it's thematically similar, but doesn't cause a problem with the group.

deuxhero
2010-01-16, 01:11 PM
You could also be a crusader.

Kris Strife
2010-01-16, 01:33 PM
@Kelb: That depends very much on the DM's perspective of paladins as to wether or not their CoC will affect the party's actions. Yes, the paladin strives to a higher moral code, but they are still soldiers and should be allowed to choose smart tactics. They shouldn't have to attack an innkeeper for removing the 'Do Not Remove' matress tags. They should be allowed to go to the bar with their friends, especially if the LG cleric is allowed to. Excessive drinking and spending time with ladies of questionable repute should depend on their code and be discussed with the DM prior to starting the campaign. The example the OP gave is the DM being a jerk, especially if he okayed him making a paladin in the first place.

@Juggalotis: Speak to your DM about it in private, and try to resolve things peacefully. If that doesn't work, or he refuses to change, discuss things with the other players and all of you go to him about it. If that doesn't work, quit letting him join your group and get a new DM. And if your group doesn't care that you're not having any fun because of the DM's actions, or they actually approve of it, find a different group.

Kylarra
2010-01-16, 01:42 PM
The amusing thing is that Paladin of Tyranny is actually the easiest of the Paladin CoC's to keep.

HailDiscordia
2010-01-16, 01:50 PM
It's tough when your powers are granted by a deity and you have to toe the line. But, as a DM, I've always been just as hard on a cleric if they are not acting in accordance with the wishes of the Big Thing Upstairs. Usually a warning in the form of feeling disconnected from their deity and maybe a lost domain power until they get back on track, same thing with the paladin. It's nice to take away a smite, but not let them know until they use it.

But it does stink if a DM is actively trying to make the paladin fail, that's sort of a no win situation.

Optimystik
2010-01-16, 01:58 PM
Unfortunately for Paladins, you are anyway. Clerics, despite being granted more power from their deities than Paladins, don't have an entire section devoted to their code of conduct that allows jerk-DMs to twist their words into making them lose their class features.

But they don't get a horse! That counts for something, right?

*whinnies*


You could also be a crusader.

Listen to this man!

aberratio ictus
2010-01-16, 02:03 PM
I once fell for not making a deal with a demon and trying to protect the inhabitants of a small village on my own instead.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-16, 02:28 PM
@Kelb: That depends very much on the DM's perspective of paladins as to wether or not their CoC will affect the party's actions. Yes, the paladin strives to a higher moral code, but they are still soldiers and should be allowed to choose smart tactics. They shouldn't have to attack an innkeeper for removing the 'Do Not Remove' matress tags. They should be allowed to go to the bar with their friends, especially if the LG cleric is allowed to. Excessive drinking and spending time with ladies of questionable repute should depend on their code and be discussed with the DM prior to starting the campaign. The example the OP gave is the DM being a jerk, especially if he okayed him making a paladin in the first place.



I actually agree with you that the DM's thoughts on a player building a character with a CoC, are the most important after the player's, but don't underestimate the importance of the thoughts the other players might have about it. A responsible player (read anyone who's not a douche) will give at least some consideration to how his character's CoC might restrict the party's actions. Example: Say the paladin was built into that PrC that blends it with rogue and is trying to sneak into a hazardous place alongside the regular rogue, they're caught by a guard and the rogue makes a bluff check to get them out of the situation, the guard almost buys it but then asks the paladin if what the rogue said is true. It's a direct violation of the Paladin's CoC to lie, says so right there in the description of the class feature. The pally has to make a choice now, drop his supernatural abilities until he can atone (read: lie) or he can blow the situation by doing pretty much anything else in this situation. It's a specific example but it gives some sense of my point. If one character has a CoC or something similar it can, and probably will affect the entire party at some point, so they should have some input.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-16, 02:45 PM
no hate from me. i love paladins. just dun like every dm's personal goal to drop them from the light of their gods.

To be fair, straight Pally isn't worth more than 5 levels. Blackguard, at the very least, is an OK PrC (it's rated at a +1 Tier) for it's mediocre requirements (and the fact that you can trade levels). Improved Sunder goes towards Combat Brute, Sneak Attack for Ambush Feats, etc.


But I agree that DM's shouldn't make them fall unless the player specifically says "I want to play a Blackguard, can you set up a falling scenario around level 6 or 10?"

Flickerdart
2010-01-16, 02:55 PM
I actually agree with you that the DM's thoughts on a player building a character with a CoC, are the most important after the player's, but don't underestimate the importance of the thoughts the other players might have about it. A responsible player (read anyone who's not a douche) will give at least some consideration to how his character's CoC might restrict the party's actions. Example: Say the paladin was built into that PrC that blends it with rogue and is trying to sneak into a hazardous place alongside the regular rogue, they're caught by a guard and the rogue makes a bluff check to get them out of the situation, the guard almost buys it but then asks the paladin if what the rogue said is true. It's a direct violation of the Paladin's CoC to lie, says so right there in the description of the class feature. The pally has to make a choice now, drop his supernatural abilities until he can atone (read: lie) or he can blow the situation by doing pretty much anything else in this situation. It's a specific example but it gives some sense of my point. If one character has a CoC or something similar it can, and probably will affect the entire party at some point, so they should have some input.
Oh please. It says that a Paladin cannot lie, not that they have to tell the truth all the time. Develop your own brand of Jedi Truth. Pretend you are mute. Pretend you don't speak Common. Say things without saying anything at all. Pretend you are a mystic prophet
"Sirrah! I am a Paladin! Do you really think a Paladin would, nay, could associate with a liar?"
None of that is a lie. Neither is "If he were, I would not have let it go unpunished"...and you will have to give the Rogue a stern talking-to sometime later in the campaign. Being creative isn't just for Wizards anymore.

Pigkappa
2010-01-16, 03:06 PM
The pally has to make a choice now, drop his supernatural abilities until he can atone (read: lie) or he can blow the situation by doing pretty much anything else in this situation.

If he's doing that for a Good reason, I think a reasonable DM should let him lie. As long as that doesn't happen often, a minor violation of the code shouldn't make someone fall. It would be absolutely impossible to play a paladin in a non-100%-lawful party, it'd be impossible to play a paladin who's not lawful-stupid, and the class would become extremely boring.



Oh please. It says that a Paladin cannot lie, not that they have to tell the truth all the time.

Paladins shouldn't lie because that is against their honor. I don't think using these verbal tricks is much more honorful, really. Dealing with alignment issues just reading rules as written is extremely sad.

Optimystik
2010-01-16, 03:14 PM
Blackguards irritate the hell out of me. Why does a plate-wearing class need ranks in Hide? Arghblargle.


Paladins shouldn't lie because that is against their honor. I don't think using these verbal tricks is much more honorful, really. Dealing with alignment issues just reading rules as written is extremely sad.

In OotS, two paladins lie to Miko about their dinner plans so they can avoid eating with her, without repercussions. Though they do later discuss actually carrying out their alibi to make it true.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-16, 03:30 PM
Blackguards irritate the hell out of me. Why does a plate-wearing class need ranks in Hide? Arghblargle.

Who says you need to wear Plate? Just because you get it doesn't mean you have to use it (I typically use Mithral Breastplate for everyone who doesn't have ASF).

Lord Thurlvin
2010-01-16, 03:31 PM
I've never tried to intentionally get the paladin to fall in my group. Of course, I have to remind the paladin's player every so often that if he does kill the shopkeeper to steal the inventory, then he will fall... Yeah, I don't know why he wanted to be a paladin either.

Gorgondantess
2010-01-16, 03:34 PM
Y'know, it's funny, I've never had a DM who had me fall, or even mentioned falling, if I did a questionable act. Never had a DM who tried to tempt me, either. If they do, they're a bad DM, generally. Simple enough.:smallconfused:

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-16, 03:43 PM
I haven't had much sleep at this point, and my example probably wasn't the best. I'm not saying the paladin in that situation had no other options, though I realize it kinda reads that way now that I look back at it. A perfectly valid option would be for him to simply poke the rogue in the shoulder, prompting him to do *something* to fix it. Bottom line though, if the paladin has to roll a bluff check, A) he'll probably fail, and B) he's had a minor failure as a Paladin. I, as a DM, probably wouldn't penalize him as heavily as full-on fall. Maybe he loses a turning attempt or a few points from his lay-on-hands pool or something to that effect, but one strict interpretation of RAW says he's violated his CoC and falls until he atones. As for associating with the rogue, a liar isn't necessarily evil and an evil character isn't necessarily a liar.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-16, 03:47 PM
Y'know, it's funny, I've never had a DM who had me fall, or even mentioned falling, if I did a questionable act. Never had a DM who tried to tempt me, either. If they do, they're a bad DM, generally. Simple enough.:smallconfused:

Now now, a DM throwing temptation at the paladin is a perfectly valid way of giving the paladin a turn in the spotlight, but it does need to be something that was discussed between the paladin's player and the DM before the paladin ever made it to play. Even a fall can be wonderful role-playing fodder as long as it's something the group is okay with and it's not completely blind-siding the pally's player.

Flickerdart
2010-01-16, 03:53 PM
Paladins shouldn't lie because that is against their honor. I don't think using these verbal tricks is much more honorful, really. Dealing with alignment issues just reading rules as written is extremely sad.
Not everything the Paladin does has to be honourable either. It just has to not be dishonourable.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-01-16, 03:54 PM
I've just started playing a Paladin (Sorcadin gish-build, really). However, I have not previously played a Good character (one Neutral and ~4 Evil characters, varying on the Law/Chaos axis (though I find Lawful easier)).

My DM actually said "I'd like to see you try to play a Good character". His doubting meant he put me through a small test, apparently I passed Lawful with flying colours but need to work on my Good side. Basically the right course of action will often be smite anything non-helpless that pings on the Evildar.

Should be easy enough to stay within his expectations for a Pally, and I'm perfectly comfortable with Blackguard if I fall:smallwink:. Win/win scenario, though it'll be nice to act like Flay (Mana Khemia: Alchemists of Al-revis) at least for a while.

absolmorph
2010-01-16, 04:05 PM
I once fell for not making a deal with a demon and trying to protect the inhabitants of a small village on my own instead.
So, for NOT working with an evil being, you fell?
How the hell did your DM claim that worked?

hamishspence
2010-01-16, 04:06 PM
My DM actually said "I'd like to see you try to play a Good character". His doubting meant he put me through a small test, apparently I passed Lawful with flying colours but need to work on my Good side. Basically the right course of action will often be smite anything non-helpless that pings on the Evildar.

This is one of the more subjective issues- for some players, this comes across as more than a little iffy- you're walking down the street with the Evildar on, it pings, you prompty charge the person who it pings (who happens to be a high ranking, arrogant aristocrat who is a Jerk but not a Complete Monster)

Result- you've commited what looks awfully like unprovoked murder, and possibly gotten the whole town after you.

Omegonthesane
2010-01-16, 04:10 PM
This is one of the more subjective issues- for some players, this comes across as more than a little iffy- you're walking down the street with the Evildar on, it pings, you prompty charge the person who it pings (who happens to be a high ranking, arrogant aristocrat who is a Jerk but not a Complete Monster)

Result- you've commited what looks awfully like unprovoked murder, and possibly gotten the whole town after you.

+1

Though I'd allow and expect radar paladin behaviour to fly if the paladin in question is currently in a dungeon or warzone or suchlike...

Ravens_cry
2010-01-16, 04:15 PM
So, for NOT working with an evil being, you fell?
How the hell did your DM claim that worked?
DM interpreted 'Evil Act' as 'Anything That Takes Them Off The Choo-Choo Train'?

Flickerdart
2010-01-16, 04:21 PM
A Paladin should, if it is at all practical, put an Evil being on trial before being able to execute them. If there's a war going on, then obviously compromises must be made, but they have to at least be able to accuse an evildoer of something aside from being Evil, and punish them accordingly.

taltamir
2010-01-16, 04:21 PM
I've never played one personally due to seeing that stuff happen to others.
If you Pally fails alot: you should just prepare for Blackguard (why not he wants you to be one).


But honestly, that kind of BS is why I'll never play a pally, because every DM will get it into their head that making you fall would be a cool plot point. Being denied class features =/= fun.

You know, I wasn't thinking about that when I was complaining about the ban hammer that wizards receives... I was wrong, Paladins are the worst class you can play.

I have never played a paladin with a DM (only in CRPGs do I feel safe) and I never will play them with a DM.
Every time I saw someone play a paladin crap like that went down... The DM always ends up saying "you do this and you will fall" or "you do this or you fall". Or worse, justs makes him all without a warning (congrats, you are now an NPC class)

Playing a paladin means that the DM gets to play your character for you half the game.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-01-16, 04:24 PM
This is one of the more subjective issues- for some players, this comes across as more than a little iffy- you're walking down the street with the Evildar on, it pings, you prompty charge the person who it pings (who happens to be a high ranking, arrogant aristocrat who is a Jerk but not a Complete Monster)

Result- you've commited what looks awfully like unprovoked murder, and possibly gotten the whole town after you.

I origionally had anything that pings and is immediately threatening but apperently that got cut out when I reworded it. I have been explicitly told that any creature which is irredeemably Evil (including, in this campaign, Owlbears and other creatures normally exempt from alignment due to lack of Intelligence. At least it makes the MM undead have sensible alignments for this campaign (I can almost guarantee uncontrolled as applied to undead will mean "slaughtering all living beings they can find")) can and indeed should be killed, anything less is merely risking lives. I'll just have to hope we don't find Succubi or Erinyeses (?).

Also, note that I don't really agree with "I must kill it 'cause it's Evil!". That is in fact why my Good grade was weaker than my Law grade (I'm a worshiper of Wee Jas though, so stronger Lawfulness is not actually a bad thing. It's more bad because my Good score was lower rather than because my Law score was higher).

In other news I need to work on shorter sentences, and on using less parentesis.

hamishspence
2010-01-16, 04:26 PM
DM saying "if you do this, you fall" is par for the course for any class or prestige class with a strong code, not just the paladin.

Paladin is just the most notable of these, because of a code that causes them to fall if they ever commit an evil act.

2nd ed was worse- they fell if they ever committed a Chaotic act, and permanently fell if they ever committed an evil act.



Also, note that I don't really agree with "I must kill it 'cause it's Evil!". That is in fact why my Good grade was weaker than my Law grade

This tends to be one of the more polarizing alignment issues. For some people, killing, even of evil beings, should be a last resort rather than a first one. BoED puts a bit more emphasis on this than previous editions- unfortunately this came with a lot of baggage as well, giving it a poor reputation.

OoTS, at least in the prequels, tends to showcase just how morally shaky "kill everything of evil alignment" is.

taltamir
2010-01-16, 04:26 PM
remember that the ping doesn't mean that the person is evil...
it means he is evil, or is descendant from evil outsiders but might be good, or possesses a magic item that is evil, or is under the effect of an evil spell, or has come into contact with a great evil, etc etc etc...

So that random person you murdered might have been a LG paladin who is on his way to destroy an evil magic item.


DM saying "if you do this, you fall" is par for the course for any class or prestige class with a strong code, not just the paladin.

Paladin is just the most notable of these, because of a code that causes them to fall if they ever commit an evil act.

2nd ed was worse- they fell if they ever committed a Chaotic act, and permanently fell if they ever committed an evil act.

paladins have the strictest code by FAR thought... a LG cleric for example also has such issues, but a paladin has to be everything that it is to be LG AND the paladin code...
Not to mention few DMs bother explaining in great and exact details what it takes to be a certain alignment according to their own personal interpretation of the words "good" "evil" "law" and "chaos".

Ask 50 people and you will get 50 different answers.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-16, 04:33 PM
DM interpreted 'Evil Act' as 'Anything That Takes Them Off The Choo-Choo Train'?

More likely than the demon being a major authority in the region.

hamishspence
2010-01-16, 04:34 PM
Some sourcebooks suggest making up your own code beforehand, with each major tenet being worked out, and options for how strictly that particular tenet should be followed.

It does tend to mean that the basics of alignment need to be worked out beforehand- is lying evil? Chaotic? Neither- but forbidden to paladins anyway? Is "lying by omission" still lying?

This can really apply to any forbidden act- does "respect for life" mean you can't ever sacrifice anybody without their consent, or is it OK to "murder millions to save billions"?

aberratio ictus
2010-01-17, 07:44 AM
So, for NOT working with an evil being, you fell?
How the hell did your DM claim that worked?

He told me that the god I worshipped became angry because I put the welfare of my soul above the welfare of the civilians. In his opinion, I simply wasn't willing to sacrifice enough and to go far enough to be a paladin.
Obviously, sacrificing my life in trying to protect the peaceful village against evil enemy troups wasn't heroic enough, but selling my soul so that the demon would grant me the strength to do so would have been.


DM interpreted 'Evil Act' as 'Anything That Takes Them Off The Choo-Choo Train'?

Well, I actually consider this to be much more likely.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-17, 09:01 AM
Paladins can lie: it says only gross violations count against for falling.

So a minor lie here and there shouldn't count to make you fall (trouble is DMs forget that important word Gross).

2xMachina
2010-01-17, 10:57 AM
Aes Sedai truth!

Always the truth, but you're not understanding what had been said.

Yukitsu
2010-01-17, 01:40 PM
Technically not a fall, but my elf paladin had a unicorn for his paladin's mount. He then got ahem, "attacked" by a particularly feisty drow priestess NPC and couldn't have a unicorn as a mount anymore. Nowadays, he simply walks beside it.

Shademan
2010-01-17, 01:40 PM
so your male paladain was a maiden?
cross-dressing ooor....?

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-17, 01:42 PM
Technically not a fall, but my elf paladin had a unicorn for his paladin's mount. He then got ahem, "attacked" by a particularly feisty drow priestess NPC and couldn't have a unicorn as a mount anymore. Nowadays, he simply walks beside it.

I'd have thought an atonement would solve that problem, if he was forced.

Drakevarg
2010-01-17, 02:10 PM
The solution, of course, is to be a Paladin of a nutso diety. For example, in one of my campaigns I had a group of paladin NPCs know as the Templars. They were technically Lawful Good (they smote evil and they had an unwaverable code of conduct) but were, to be quite honest, total ***holes. For starters, they had a Judge Dredd-style "I AM THE LAW" worldview, and thought that is was entirely reasonable, while hunting down a cult of Nerull known as the White Hand, to just spam Evildar, interrogate any evil people they came across, and if they turned out to worship Nerull, just execute them on the off chance that they WERE from the White Hand (mind you that in this campaign Nerull is a socially accepted diety, who largely deals with funeral rites and whose worshippers are largely goth kids.)

They wound up killing the party's cleric when he resisted arrest... and mind you that HE was a legitimate member of the city guard and THEY were intervening from another country.

But they didn't fall. Why? Because their god was an ***hole whose definition of "Good" was "Against anything I deem Evil." and whose definition of Lawful was "Follows MY laws."

Obviously wouldn't be allowed RAW, but this was a campaign where, as their name may suggest, paladins were a bunch of Knights Templar (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightTemplar).

ShippoWildheart
2010-01-17, 02:22 PM
You could also be a crusader.

Good god yes! The Crusader is way more in tune to the idea of a holy warrior. They're not bound by a strict code, and they still get some of the goodies Paladins get, like a Smite that's NOT affected by alignment (you CAN smite another Lawful Good character if you want to) and a watered down version of their Divine Grace which affects the Crusader's weakest lethal save (Will. A bad Reflex matters less), while having the power to heal as much in battle as they want to.

Crusaders are in essence what the Paladin should have been. They don't have to be Lawful Good. They can be of any alignment, just that they need a deity to worship/devote a cause to.

Velden
2010-01-17, 02:36 PM
The Gray Guard of complete scoundrel could be an option...the background of the Prc fits the reality of most paladin characters who develop a realistic view of the world around them.

Pro:

-Atonement doesnīt cost XP(level 1) if itīs in order to achieve the ends of your faith. At level 10 you can violate your code of conduct without being punished at all. (You still answer to your patron deity or church)

-Lay on hands stacks, at level 2 you can expend 5 points in order to impose the "sickened" status on a living being, at level 5 can be used to harm with a touch, regardless of alignment(still, non-evil characters get a Will save for half damage).

-"Smite evil" stacks and can be used on chaotic enemies(level 4). At level 9 against any alignment.

-The Prc gets bonus on intimidate,bluff and disguise checks based on class level.

-You can multiclass between Pal and Gray Guard freely.


Unless my copy of Complete Scoundrel is a misprint, yes it does. Its the last line of the Gray Guard code of conduct. At first I thought you couldnīt, thanks Kris.


Con:
-If you violate your code of conduct without justification, you risk losing the favor of your patron god or church, even at level 10. By becoming an ex-gray guard, a character exiled of the order cannot regain his abilities even if he atones.

-Up until level 10 youīll need a 9th level cleric to cast atonement. Even though there is no XP cost, at low levels this could be a problem.

-You arenīt considered a paladin, your special mount doesnīt improve when you level up.

-your spellcasting ability improves only every even-numbered class level. At paladin 10/Gray Guard 10 your character is considered a 15th level paladin regarding spells and spellcaster level. Itīs better than nothing at least...

-[Edited]


Itīs important to note that the Gray Guard IS STILL lawful good. GGīs faith and sense of duty are beyond the average paladin. Itīs not like "Hey I want to be a Gray Guard so I can do whatever I want", when they break their code, they feel guilty like any other paladin, but are willing to do the dirty job because they know itīs necessarly.

Coidzor
2010-01-17, 05:47 PM
For starters, they had a Judge Dredd-style "I AM THE LAW" worldview, and thought that is was entirely reasonable, while hunting down a cult of Nerull known as the White Hand, to just spam Evildar, interrogate any evil people they came across, and if they turned out to worship Nerull, just execute them on the off chance that they WERE from the White Hand (mind you that in this campaign Nerull is a socially accepted diety, who largely deals with funeral rites and whose worshippers are largely goth kids.

I don't think goths = always evil is really very healthy either.

Yukitsu
2010-01-17, 05:50 PM
so your male paladain was a maiden?
cross-dressing ooor....?

It was an elf. According to the alternate class feature list, that's close enough.

As for the atonement, doesn't that involve undoing the deed that caused the predicament? And if so, does that mean he has to kill his unborn kid?

Drakevarg
2010-01-17, 06:10 PM
I don't think goths = always evil is really very healthy either.

This is a campaign setting that has alignment seperated into two sections; Moral Alignment, aka your actual beliefs, which is pure fluff, and Cosmic Alignment, which is what the gods SAY you are. For example, Corellon Larethian is the god of elves. Obviously the elves call him "Good." Corellon Larethian doesn't like Nerull. Therefore, Nerull is "Evil." Ergo, anyone who associates with Nerull comes up as Evil on Evildar, which of course is a power used by paladins, who worship Corellon Larethian.

This was a concept mostly used to justify "Always Chaotic Evil" races without having to deal with the fact that an entire civilization of crazed baby-eaters is completely impractical. Now, they're always Chaotic Evil because the gods said they were.

Kris Strife
2010-01-17, 06:11 PM
-The Prc doesnīt offer the option of leveling up the paladin class once the path of the Gray Guard is taken...

Unless my copy of Complete Scoundrel is a misprint, yes it does. Its the last line of the Gray Guard code of conduct.

Gnaeus
2010-01-17, 08:05 PM
Some DMs are still in the 2nd ed mindset that Paladins are, by definition, stronger than most other classes, like fighters. In 3rd ed, this is not the case (unless a lot of non-core material is used to boost the paladin). Try explaining that paladins no longer need such a big risk of falling because they are no longer overbalanced without it.

I agree that paladins falling should be based more on the deity they serve than on the CoC. A paladin serving the god of truth could fall for telling a little white lie, but the god of marriage might be OK with it. A god devoted to protecting the innocent or to justice could frown on killing those little Orc or Goblin babies, while Moradin or some other racial god might encourage it.

wumpus
2010-01-18, 08:07 PM
First, the gray guard sounds like the perfect setup for a fall. Pally learns about it via whispers (it is adamantly denied by the hierarchy). Pally joins. Pally goes undercover to infiltrate own arm of the church or other LG church and burn out heresy. Pally finally finds out that he's been duped by a sucubus and fell in the early part of joining the phony "gray guard". It is important that all this information be given to the player "in character", without the DM ever saying (as the DM) that there is such a thing as the gray guard.

Second, the Templar sound like the Silver Flame. Don't ask what goes on in DDO, especially "purging the heretics"

Thirdly. The Giant has mentioned that while he doesn't wholly hate Paladins, the "don't let the party do anything against the Pally's code" means that he is controlling the rest of the party as much as most of the DM's in this thread have controlled the player. At this point, any Paladin might as well be a DMPC with a persisted dominate party spell.

AslanCross
2010-01-18, 11:21 PM
But honestly, that kind of BS is why I'll never play a pally, because every DM will get it into their head that making you fall would be a cool plot point. Being denied class features =/= fun.

I didn't ever think of making the paladin in my first campaign fall. :P I don't think it's cool either.

However, I do recommend that people play Crusader instead.