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randomhero00
2010-01-16, 03:50 PM
My homebrew class. Flavored after toxin/assassin type class. Has not been play tested yet.


Toxicant
Alignment: Must be Chaotic.
Hit Die: d8.

Class Skills
The toxicantís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Craft (Poison) (Wis), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.



Toxicant
{table=head]Level| BAB |Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+0|Bane, Rupture +2d6

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+0|Evasion

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+1|Rupture +3d6

4th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+1|Uncanny Dodge, Coat Weapon 1/day

5th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+1|Rupture +4d6

6th|
+4|
+5|
+5|
+2|Energy resistance acid, immunity natural poison

7th|
+5|
+5|
+5|
+2|Rupture +5d6

8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+2|Coat weapon 2/day

9th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+3|Rupture +6d6

10th|
+7/+2|
+7|
+7|
+3|Corrosive Vapor 2/day

11th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+7|
+3|Rupture +7d6

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+8|
+4|Exploit weakness +10

13th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+8|
+4|Rupture +8d6

14th|
+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+4|Coat weapon 3/day

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+9|
+5|Rupture +9d6

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+5|Coat weapon 4/day

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+5|Rupture +10d6, Corrosive Vapor 4/day

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+6|Coat weapon 6/day, Exploit weakness +20

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+6|Rupture +11d6

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+6|Contagious destruction[/table]


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Toxicants are proficient with light armor, but not shields, all simple weaponry and in addition the kukri, short sword, rapier, scimitar, hand crossbow, and all bows.

Bane(Su) the toxicant has delved so deeply into the toxic arts he has only to succeed on a melee or ranged attack on any type of creature to affect them, even creatures normally immune to poison or disease.

Bane requires focus and can only be on one target at a time. If the toxicant hits multiple creatures he may choose only one that bane affects. If the toxicant breaks line of sight for more than three rounds, falls unconscious, or the target makes its save bane dissipates.

The particular Bane Effect may be chosen from the Bane Effect list below. DC 10 + toxicants level + poison level vs fort. Special: The initial shock of bane is so great that there is no save for the first three rounds, but every round thereafter the creature may attempt a save.

Rupture(Su): (move action, requires line of sight) Bane must be applied first and have been in effect on the target for at least one round before rupture can be used. The toxicant empowers Bane in a sudden gust of power that rends the creature apart.

Using the Rupture ability expunges the bane effect, and makes the creature immune to bane for the current round so it must be reapplied the following round to continue usage. Damage based on toxicantís level. No save.

Exploit Weakness(Su): On the first attack of a new encounter apply bonus to hit once. +10 to hit at 12th level, +20 to hit at 18th level.

Energy Resistance to acid starting at 6th level: Energy resistance grows; 10 at 6th level, 20 at 10th level, 30 at 14th level, and 40 Energy resistance to acid at 18th level.

Immunity to natural poison at 6th level, immunity to all poisons at 9th.

Corrosive Vapor(Su): swift action, for 3 rounds (+1 round per 2 class levels after 10th level) the toxicant exudes corrosive vapors wherever he goes leaving a trail of corrosive vapor that does 6d6 acid damage per round. 8d6 at 15th level, and 10d6 at 20th. The gas persists behind the toxicant only, not in his current square, for the duration of the effect and fills the squares the toxicant moved through since he activated it. The vapor is clearly visible and pungent and creatures may choose to avoid it.

Coat weapon(Su): standard action, lasts 4 hours. On hit weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of acid damage, 2d6 at level 12, and 3d6 at level 20. Can also be applied to a quiver of arrows.

Contagious destruction(Su): If the target is under 100hp when rupture is used the target dies. Additionally, another creature within 30ft can be selected to automatically have the bane effect.

Bane effects:

Level 1
Dogsith: -6 con saves
Acalypha: -4 AC if charging or double move, -5 on bull rush attempts
Amaryllis: +1 damage taken when hit
Dosis: +5 on trip attempts vs creature

Level 2
Lobelia: +5 on grapple and disarm checks vs creature
Crocus: -2 AC
Diabelum: -2 to hit
Shacus: +4 to hit and +4 damage on attacks of opportunity vs creature

Level 3
Datura: weakened vs energy, take +10 damage vs all energy attacks
Dumbcane: arcane spell failure chance +25%
Delphinium: can always be seen, even through invisibility, +2 to hit vs creature
Locsire: difficult to keep footing, as if walking or climbing a greased area as spell
Gosrith: Slow, as spell

Level 4
Shashen: Creatures hardness and damage resistance -20
Foxglove: miss chance 20%
Aucuba: blind/deaf
Bjoil: -2 on hit, damage, and all saves

Level 5
Gogen: -5 on all saves
Laurfel: Unable to leave the ground, includes jumping or flying, if flying, they fall
Xasion: Causes target to lose its move action

Level 6
Hartshorn: Doing any action except standing still takes 4d6 points of damage
Feldane: Spells cast have a 30% chance to backfire (be cast back on caster if offensive, or fail if buff)
Gorlung: Ignore dex AC and natural armor bonuses

Toxicant level/highest bane effect available
1-3 >>> 1
4-6 >>> 2
7-9 >>> 3
10-13 >>> 4
14-17 >>> 5
18+ >>> 6


Thanks for reading.

Feel free to use content, just give credit.

Feedback? I'd like him balanced for when I play him.

Debihuman
2010-01-16, 04:18 PM
The easiest way to make a table is to copy the table from the Guide to Homebrewing in first stickied post: Notable threads. Just copy and the whole table and then fill it in. Most of the work is done for you.

Debby
Edited post to remove table.

Latronis
2010-01-16, 04:21 PM
I'll make you a deal. Use a table and I'll PEACH

DracoDei
2010-01-16, 05:09 PM
HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4889524&postcount=30) is a thread that you might want to use for cross-pollenation of ideas. Maker sure to look at BOTH PrCs in it.

randomhero00
2010-01-16, 06:37 PM
What's PEACH? How do I copy the table? I right click but it doesn't let me.

Debihuman
2010-01-16, 06:46 PM
P.E.A.C.H. stands for Please Evaluate and Critique Honestly.

It's a lot easier if you use the the quote feature, then copy the portion that you want to quote, then get out of the post, and edit your earlier post by pasting the information that you copied.

If you are new at this it may take a couple of tries before you get it right.

Also, if you accidentally double post, you can use the edit function to open your post and click on delete message.

If you need more help, I recommend that you look in the first thread at the Guide to Homebrewing.

Debby

Latronis
2010-01-16, 08:20 PM
Draco did you edit your post to include the link? I'm sure there was no link when i saw it earlier >_>

Siosilvar
2010-01-16, 08:24 PM
What's up with the odd saves?

Good progression is +2 + 1/2 levels.
Bad progression is +1/3 levels.

"Medium" progression (which doesn't actually exist in 3.5) is +1 + 2/5 levels.

randomhero00
2010-01-17, 01:42 AM
Woa, trying to fill in that table is hard and makes my eyes bleed...maybe I'm doing it wrong. But its difficult to tell where I am supposed to fill in. I just see a bunch of forum code.

The saves are different because I wanted him to have decent fort saves, being a toxin type, but also decent reflex saves being an assassin type. But I felt I couldn't give two awesome saves so I curbed em down a bit. Is it OK to give a class two good saves?

Other than that his BAB progression is same as rogue. So the only thing in the table you really need to see is the level he gets the class abilities. Which is already easy to read.

Thanks

Debihuman
2010-01-17, 02:14 AM
Woa, trying to fill in that table is hard and makes my eyes bleed...maybe I'm doing it wrong. But its difficult to tell where I am supposed to fill in. I just see a bunch of forum code.

I very much suggest you look at the Guide to Homebrewing in the first post. You are just replacing the x in "+x" with the appropriate numbers and the words "class ability" with the corresponding special abilities.


The saves are different because I wanted him to have decent fort saves, being a toxin type, but also decent reflex saves being an assassin type. But I felt I couldn't give two awesome saves so I curbed em down a bit. Is it OK to give a class two good saves?

Yes he can have 2 good saves but you should use the correct progressions.

Note: I am editing my earlier table for you.

Debby

Latronis
2010-01-17, 02:32 AM
Even in core Druid and Cleric and Ranger have 2 good saves. Monk has all 3 good saves.

If you want a an inbetween value you should probably give them a save bonus to like the swashbuckler's grace as an ability.

Though I find it a little hard to think of a backstabbing poisoner has having a good fort save, especially since he actually has full on immunity to poison

Debihuman
2010-01-17, 10:29 AM
Bump as I'm editing my posts. I'm completing the table with corrected Saves but it is going slower than I'd like. Is the table correct so far? I'm gonna take a breather from the table for a while until I get some feedback (pausing at level 7).

Giving out full poison immunity at level 4 is overpowered. I recommend changing this to poison immunity to only natural poisons but not supernatural or magical poisons.

If Coat Weapon lasts for 8 hours, then why do they need it 6 times a day by level 18? I think it should last a lot less time than that.

At first level Bane is way too powerful unless you delete the part where it can affect creatures normally immune to poison or disease. I could see giving it a percentage chance based on level, which increases as the Toxicant goes up in level, but not 100% at the beginning. If this were a prestige class, it might fly, but you are making a standard base class.

Debby

DracoDei
2010-01-17, 12:54 PM
Draco did you edit your post to include the link? I'm sure there was no link when i saw it earlier >_>
Yes, I was using the post itself to link me to my extended homebrew so I could get the URL to edit in.

randomhero00
2010-01-17, 08:04 PM
Thanks all.

Yeah, I guess the poison immunity could be, although its at 6, not 4. In my campaigns we just haven't run into poisons much so I've forgotten. On the other hand, he is master of poison, but I'll change it.

Thanks at debie for helping out on the table. Let me see here...

The coat weapon multiple times a day is to buff other party member's weapon's as well. Make it briefer, like an hour maybe? I don't know.

BTW this class isn't meant to mix well with others so to speak. Is there a mechanical precedent or way to say that? Like it can't prestige or something? Or it can only prestige in a limited way? What do you think?

"Though I find it a little hard to think of a backstabbing poisoner has having a good fort save, especially since he actually has full on immunity to poison"

True, but I see this guy as more of a mix between something like a monk (i.e. self buffer/supernatural type) and a rogue. This guy has spent a lot of his life in dark rooms experimenting with supernatural toxins and has built up his fortitude.

What's so overpowered about Bane?

Lappy9000
2010-01-17, 08:17 PM
Thanks all.

Yeah, I guess the poison immunity could be, although its at 6, not 4. In my campaigns we just haven't run into poisons much so I've forgotten. On the other hand, he is master of poison, but I'll change it.

Thanks at debie for helping out on the table. Let me see here...

The coat weapon multiple times a day is to buff other party member's weapon's as well. Make it briefer, like an hour maybe? I don't know.

BTW this class isn't meant to mix well with others so to speak. Is there a mechanical precedent or way to say that? Like it can't prestige or something? Or it can only prestige in a limited way? What do you think?

"Though I find it a little hard to think of a backstabbing poisoner has having a good fort save, especially since he actually has full on immunity to poison"

True, but I see this guy as more of a mix between something like a monk (i.e. self buffer/supernatural type) and a rogue. This guy has spent a lot of his life in dark rooms experimenting with supernatural toxins and has built up his fortitude.Honestly, what you're describing sounds like it would fit better into a 10-level Prestige Class anyways. The plus on this is that you can condense the abilities and just take some levels in monk before going into it.

Regardless, if you could remove spoiler from the class, I'd really appreciate it.

randomhero00
2010-01-17, 08:30 PM
Honestly, what you're describing sounds like it would fit better into a 10-level Prestige Class anyways. The plus on this is that you can condense the abilities and just take some levels in monk before going into it.

Regardless, if you could remove spoiler from the class, I'd really appreciate it.

Sure I can remove those tags. I thought that was the courteous thing to do here though? To make it shorter. But I don't like the idea of putting it into a prestige class. Also roleplay wise, it is also so not what a monk would go into. Why do you say that? If anything, doesn't it have too many abilities for a prestige class? I'm thinking of even adding a few more. Trying to think of a trap like ability that would be fun, balanced, but more of an in-combat use.

Either way, I'd like this to be a full class. So what can I do to make it more core classyness?

Here's the table.



Toxicant
{table=head]Level| BAB |Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+0|Bane, Rupture +1d6

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+0|Evasion

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+1|Rupture +2d6

4th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+1|Uncanny Dodge, Coat Weapon 1/day

5th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+1|Rupture +3d6

6th|
+4|
+5|
+5|
+2|Damage resistance acid, immunity natural poison

7th|
+5|
+5|
+5|
+2|Rupture +4d6

8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+2|Coat weapon 2/day

9th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+3|Rupture +5d6

10th|
+7/+2|
+7|
+7|
+3|Corrosive Vapor 2/day

11th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+7|
+3|Rupture +6d6

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+8|
+4|Exploit weakness +10

13th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+8|
+4|Rupture +7d6

14th|
+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+4|Coat weapon 3/day

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+9|
+5|Rupture +8d6

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+5|Coat weapon 4/day

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+5|Rupture +9d6, Corrosive Vapor 4/day

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+6|Coat weapon 6/day, Exploit weakness +20

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+6|Rupture +10d6

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+6|Contagious destruction[/table]

Lappy9000
2010-01-17, 10:10 PM
Sure I can remove those tags. I thought that was the courteous thing to do here though? To make it shorter.Thanks!

And, normally you'd be right, but the class is the important part of your post. Without it, there's nothing to critique :smallbiggrin: (the Bane effects could probably use a spoiler, if you'd like).

But I don't like the idea of putting it into a prestige class. Also roleplay wise, it is also so not what a monk would go into. Why do you say that? If anything, doesn't it have too many abilities for a prestige class? I'm thinking of even adding a few more. Trying to think of a trap like ability that would be fun, balanced, but more of an in-combat use.

Either way, I'd like this to be a full class. So what can I do to make it more core classyness? Fair enough.

Actually, things look fine now that I can see the table. 'Cause not all of the abilities are listed (Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, etc.) I didn't notice them. Speaking of which, you could afford to clean up the formatting a bit. Try Bolding the abilities ; makes everything look much neater.

Also, any particular reason why you gave the Toxicant 5 + Int Skill points? Not really a problem, just breaking from convention.

I'd say Rupture looks fine without a save, but Corrosive Vapors is a little bit much. Even simply moving at full base speed could easily fill 6-8 squares, not counting running (at four times that), and the like. I'd make it similar to Acid Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidfog.htm) for balancing. It's a awesome ability, though.

Latronis
2010-01-17, 10:28 PM
Alignment: Any.

Bear in mind since the BOED release many assume that use of poison is always evil. Personally i call it nonsense but it is something to be considered.


Class Skills
The toxicantís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Craft (Wis), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (5 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 5 + Int modifier.


That's a big class skills list for its amount of skill points. And skill points are generally an even number. Just bump it up to 6, even only 2 less than rogue is a decent drawback comparitively. Or drop it down to 4, but if you do you should really drop a handful of class skills from the class

No poison use? Odd for a poisoner. Granted immunity does make it pointless, but you dont start with the immunity.


Bane(Su) the toxicant has delved so deeply into the toxic arts he has only to succeed on a melee or ranged attack on any type of creature to poison them, even creatures normally immune to poison or disease.

Bane requires focus and can only be on one target at a time. If the toxicant hits multiple creatures he may choose only one that bane affects. If the toxicant breaks line of sight for more than three rounds, falls unconscious, or the target makes its save bane dissipates.

The particular bane effect may be chosen from the poison list below. DC 10 + toxicants level + poison level vs fort. Special: The initial shock of bane is so great that there is no save for the first three rounds, but every round thereafter the creature may attempt a save.

Bear in mind immunities are often balancing factors. And for some thing immunities are logical where overcoming it may not be. Not that you should never use overcomes immunity abilities, but you should probably allow you to overcome immunity albeit at penalty.

No save poison is a nono. The DCs can become quite high too.


Rupture(Su): (move action, requires line of sight) Bane must be applied first and have been in effect on the target for at least one round before rupture can be used. The toxicant empowers his supernatural poison in a sudden gust of power that rends the creature apart.

Using the Rupture ability expunges the bane effect, and makes the creature immune to bane for the current round so it must be reapplied the following round to continue usage. Damage based on toxicantís level. No save.

You should include what the damage is to be consistent with existing rules, instead of only in the table.

So you use a move action to deal upto 10d6 untyped damage, no save, no resistance, no reduction, no attack roll needed. Just needs to be suffering from the bane effect, which itself only requires a successful attack roll and effects everything intially.


Exploit Weakness(Su): On the first attack of a new encounter apply bonus to hit once. uh what bonus?


Corrosive Vapor(Su): swift action, for 3 rounds (+1 round per 2 class levels after 10th level) the toxicant exudes corrosive vapors wherever he goes leaving a trail of gas that does 6d6 acid damage per round. 8d6 at 15th level, and 10d6 at 20th. The gas persists behind the toxicant only, not in his current square, for the duration of the effect and fills the squares the toxicant moved through since he activated it. The gas is clearly visible and pungent and creatures may choose to avoid it.

You should clarify if breathing or not has any effect.


Coat weapon(Su): standard action, lasts 4 hours. On hit weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of acid damage per 4 levels of toxicant (after 4th level.) Can also be applied to a quiver of arrows.

5d6 acid damage per hit is a little excessive


Contagious destruction(Su): If the target is under 100hp when rupture is used the target dies. Additionally, another creature within 30ft can be selected to automatically have the bane effect.

Bane can't be stopped, rupture can't be stopped, and now unlimited kill effect that can't be stopped.



Generally you spoiler less important information, or any images that stretch the screen. Fluff and designer notes sometimes also use spoiler tags.

The classes mechanical information shouldn't be (though new feats\spells that take up a lot of room that it references sometimes get spoilered too)

Too many spoiler tags are an annoyance, so keep the most important details in view, and if it looks like a wall o text spoiler the less important stuff so it doesnt turn people away from reading :smallbiggrin:

Debihuman
2010-01-18, 04:23 AM
BTW this class isn't meant to mix well with others so to speak. Is there a mechanical precedent or way to say that? Like it can't prestige or something? Or it can only prestige in a limited way? What do you think?

I don't think you should ever dictate to how someone plays a PC toxicant. If you think it needs to be limited, then it should be a prestige class rather than a base class.

While poison use is generally frowned upon, if used judiciously, it doesn't necessarily have to be an evil act. More importantly, I think you should change add Craft (Poison) to the Toxicant's skill list. On the other hand, a toxicant doesn't need the Disguise or Swim. Those can be cross-class skills.

The number of skills that a toxicant gains should be either 6 or 4. 5 is non-standard as previously mentioned.

You really need to tone down the Bane effect so that it doesn't work against creatures that are immune to poison at the earlier level. Bear in mind, many creatures are only immune to their own poisons and the poison of others of their kind. However, the Bane ability could increase at level 20 so that it works against creatures that are immune to poison. That's a nice capstone feature and makes it worth staying in the class rather than Contagious Destruction, which is not a stand-alone feature of this class. In order for Contagious Destruction to work, you have to use rupture first and this is not a good design for a capstone ability.

Poisons have a specific DC to their saves. Being a toxicant should have no bearing on the poison's save unless he is making his own poison. In that case, the poison would have a Fort DC save equal to 10 + 1/2 the toxicant's level + toxicant's Intelligence modifier. [Craft (poison) is Intelligence based].

Like Assassins, Toxicants need Poison Use at first level so that they don't accidentally poison themselves. This should be a given.

Debby

Lappy9000
2010-01-18, 10:11 AM
By the way, it would be all kinds of awesome to get a little fluff section for the class. If there are issues with the alignment (some think it may have a push towards evil), you could explain why or why not they have a push in that direction.

Zom B
2010-01-18, 02:53 PM
Nobody's pointed out yet, so I'm a bit surprised: Craft is not on the class skill list for this class, so Craft (poisons/poisonmaking) (whatever you call it) is a cross-class skill.

Otherwise, everything I was going to say has already been pointed out.

Debihuman
2010-01-18, 03:11 PM
Actually, a couple of us have already pointed out that Craft (Poison) is missing from the Toxicant's skills. See my post above this where I mention it and I also suggest removing two skills from the Toxicant's skill list.

Debby

Zom B
2010-01-18, 03:18 PM
Blah, so you did. Nevermind.

randomhero00
2010-01-18, 06:06 PM
Thanks again all. Several improvements were made.

Latronis- This is Bane, a supernatural toxin. Not some silly poison. It is the be-all, end-all of toxic energies. Its less a poison and more a spell, well it is literally a supernatural ability to manifest an energy so foul it burns through the hardiest of creatures. If I take away the ignore-immunity factor to this ability, it'd defeat the purpose I originally set out to create. Now if you think the Bane effects need tweaking to dampen their power, I am all for that. But bane ignoring poison immunities (especially since its not really a poison) I am hard set on. Or lowering the saves would be fine too. So long as their is an initial shock effect.

Eh what do you mean about the damage on Rupture? It goes up every 2 levels. That would be a lot of listing. It is also exactly like sneak attack, except their aren't creatures that have immunities to it. The down side is that you can do it less than an optimized rogue, 1/2 as much, to the equivalent sneak attackable creatures, and that you can't disarm traps/be as much of a skill monkey. In fact, its slightly worse, because it requires a hit (bane an attack roll, and you must have bane on the target first) *and* a move action every time *and* you can't ever use rupture in the first round of combat.

So to recap, Rupture requires sacrificing your bane effect, a successful attack roll, a *move action*, and a round of build up. Just for immunity free sneak attack damage. I'm failing to see how this kind of thing is overpowered when a wizard can do much much worse every round.

Other peeps:
Ya, I don't like the poison=evil thing. Especially since this guy isn't strictly poison. He's really no more destructive than an evocation wizard might be roleplay wise. I do think I like the idea of Chaos being a must though. As I can't see a guy that follows law starting down this kind of path.

Debi- Eh, so why isn't that a cool captstone? Seems wicked neat to me. And its not that overpowered since, its essentially just a power word kill every other round. And since you'll already be doing ~average of 50 damage (at least, 30 from Rupture, plus at least 20 from attack your attack, probably way more by 20), its really only adding about another 50 damage to creatures that are already going to die. But it adds quite the nice assassiny/toxicy flavor to the class. It feels powerful, but once you factor in the sneak attack damage, and your normal damage, plus whatever party members might have damaged it from persistant effects, it ends up likely not doing much extra damage most of the time.

Poisons have a specific DC, but the toxicant isn't making willy nilly run of the mill poisons, perhaps I wasn't clear in the descriptions, but he's supernaturally manifesting toxic substances that some would call poisons, but really they don't have a true classification. Hence why the dc is based more on the toxicant and less on the poison, and why its so high. But I could tone it down if you think I need to, but I still like the idea of it being based more around him.

Debihuman
2010-01-18, 11:27 PM
The reason that Rapture isn't so great is that you can't use it if Bane fails. A better capstone is one that stands alone on its one merit. Frankly, after 18th level, it isn't worth staying in the class at all. Getting that DR 40 to acid should be the capstone and even that is overpowered. Not even great wyrm dragon's get that much of a DR.

Debby

randomhero00
2010-01-19, 12:04 AM
The reason that Rapture isn't so great is that you can't use it if Bane fails. A better capstone is one that stands alone on its one merit. Frankly, after 18th level, it isn't worth staying in the class at all. Getting that DR 40 to acid should be the capstone and even that is overpowered. Not even great wyrm dragon's get that much of a DR.

Debby

Ah I see. Should I move it down, and think of a new capstone? As I really like Contagious Destruction flavor wise. And dr 40 acid, that strong? I know some races LA +2, which isn't bad at all with buyoffs, that have *immunity* to acid and poison plus many other bonuses IIRC (I'm thinking of stonechild, taking the milder template, not the full racial HD). But the DR 40 acid isn't a big deal, I could lower that if you think I should.

BTW to someone else, I forget, I think was saying Corrosive Vapors might be overpowered, don't forget, to spread it around you must use your move action, which is rather precious to this class as every other round one is needed to use Rupture. Secondly, you can't put it directly on any creatures. So for it to do damage they actually have to move through it (unlikely) or be knocked into it (frankly, there'd be easier ways to do damage). Creatures have to move into it before they take any damage. It's mostly a defensive maneuver/battlefield control or a creative offensive one.

Temotei
2010-01-19, 12:38 AM
Ah I see. Should I move it down, and think of a new capstone? As I really like Contagious Destruction flavor wise. And dr 40 acid, that strong? I know some races LA +2, which isn't bad at all with buyoffs, that have *immunity* to acid and poison plus many other bonuses IIRC (I'm thinking of stonechild, taking the milder template, not the full racial HD). But the DR 40 acid isn't a big deal, I could lower that if you think I should.

BTW to someone else, I forget, I think was saying Corrosive Vapors might be overpowered, don't forget, to spread it around you must use your move action, which is rather precious to this class as every other round one is needed to use Rupture. Secondly, you can't put it directly on any creatures. So for it to do damage they actually have to move through it (unlikely) or be knocked into it (frankly, there'd be easier ways to do damage). Creatures have to move into it before they take any damage. It's mostly a defensive maneuver/battlefield control or a creative offensive one.

It depends. The correct term for energy damage reduction is energy resistance. If it's energy resistance, just lower the numbers to be reasonable (up to 20 maybe). If it's DR only overcome by acid damage, that's cheap and overpowered, no contest.

Black dragons gain immunity to acid at wyrmling age.

DracoDei
2010-01-19, 12:56 AM
Well, I haven't looked at the class in full, but Acid Resistance 40 is in no way out of the question as a class ability at level 20... Swordsages can get Immunity to Fire as early as level 17.

Temotei
2010-01-19, 01:19 AM
Well, I haven't looked at the class in full, but Acid Resistance 40 is in no way out of the question as a class ability at level 20... Swordsages can get Immunity to Fire as early as level 17.

Oh yeah...that's right. Forgot about that.

Still, if you meant it to be DR 40/acid, that's overpowered.

Energy resistance: acid 40 is not overpowered.

Latronis
2010-01-19, 05:33 AM
Thanks again all. Several improvements were made.

Latronis- This is Bane, a supernatural toxin. Not some silly poison. It is the be-all, end-all of toxic energies. Its less a poison and more a spell, well it is literally a supernatural ability to manifest an energy so foul it burns through the hardiest of creatures. If I take away the ignore-immunity factor to this ability, it'd defeat the purpose I originally set out to create. Now if you think the Bane effects need tweaking to dampen their power, I am all for that. But bane ignoring poison immunities (especially since its not really a poison) I am hard set on. Or lowering the saves would be fine too. So long as their is an initial shock effect.

I suggest changing the terminology then. You make it seem like poison.


Eh what do you mean about the damage on Rupture? It goes up every 2 levels. That would be a lot of listing. It is also exactly like sneak attack, except their aren't creatures that have immunities to it. The down side is that you can do it less than an optimized rogue, 1/2 as much, to the equivalent sneak attackable creatures, and that you can't disarm traps/be as much of a skill monkey. In fact, its slightly worse, because it requires a hit (bane an attack roll, and you must have bane on the target first) *and* a move action every time *and* you can't ever use rupture in the first round of combat.

Except unlike sneak attack it will never ever fail when you want to use it because you have insanely high attack bonus when you apply bane which will never ever fail. Then just give up your move action next round to deal 10d6 (which isn't great, but it's untyped and will never fail given bane can't fail and you are more likely to hit at the start of the encounter than many warriors)

Round 1 of an encounter. hit(+35 to hit from class alone). apply the level 3 bane with the energy weakness effect. Even though i have a really high save DC for my bane effects it's completely irrelevant since they have to be suffering it for 3 rounds before they even get a save, and they wont live that long anyway.

Since i previously have my weapon coated I now deal 3d6+10 damage per hit. And it stacks too so i might aswell go and whack a handful of different energy effects on my weapon through enchantments before coating it.

attack 1: apply bane. (flaming, acidic, shocking, icy and coat weapon for +7d6 damage)

attack 2: +7d6+10

attack 3: +7d6+10

average damage bonus damage(not base weapon die or strength mod or feats etc)= 93.5. And that's assuming it can only be applied once per attack. Since there is so little written about one could argue that since the attacks are 5 seperate applications of energy damage it should be +50dmg per attack.

round 2: standard action attack for +7d6+10

not much is going to still have more than 100hp, so now you use the move action to rupture and instantly kill it regardless. AND spread the effect to another foe if close enough (without needing an attack roll anymore) and start all over again next round.



Other peeps:
Ya, I don't like the poison=evil thing. Especially since this guy isn't strictly poison. He's really no more destructive than an evocation wizard might be roleplay wise. I do think I like the idea of Chaos being a must though. As I can't see a guy that follows law starting down this kind of path.


Technically he's not poison atall

Debihuman
2010-01-19, 09:15 AM
I think it was the wording of the Damage Reduction that was confusing. DR 40/acid is more powerful than acid immunity. All dragons have some immunities, but they're dragons after all. I don't even have a problem with the toxicant gaining full acid immunity, [personally I think poison immunity would be better] but not before level 17.

I brought up the DR 40 to acid because DR 40 to anything is inappropriate to anything less than epic. Not even dragons get a DR that high as I stated in my example. Immunity is another story. However, classes normally don't hand out immunities early on either--at least not that I've seen.

Also, if you want this class to be less "evil" give it away to make antidotes as well as poisons.

Debby

randomhero00
2010-01-19, 01:47 PM
lol, oh ya, woops! I meant to say energy resistance, not damage resistance, big difference indeed! hah.

Latronis- yeah but those bonuses to hit aren't till 12th level and then 18th level and only apply once. By then its not like a rogue or warrior wouldn't have true strike available. Have you seen some of the crazy things from tome of battle/book of nine swords that they get that he's competing with? IIRC you can build either a swordsage or a warblade + rogue that can do nearly the same things (sneak attack damage that ignores DR) + has other tricks and goodies.

And most of your example's damage comes from weapon mods. Class bonus damage is an average of 48 damage over two rounds... (average of 3d6 + 3d6 + one rupture of 10d6 = 48 damage over two rounds) not including contagious destruction. And if anything, your example only proves that contagious destruction is weak, since you're already going to be doing nearly 100 damage a round by 20 anyway, apparently most of it from weapon mods. If you add on Datura, then +20 damage over those two rounds. But that's assuming you're not using a more useful Bane effect. If anything, it probably should apply to each effect.

So about 35 damage a round on average from class abilities at level 20... with an occasional way to deal extra damage with contagious destruction (if its hps happen to land just below a hundred, instead of much much lower which is more likely.) This is sounding a bit underpowered if anything.


BTW thank you though latronis, don't get me wrong, I could be wrong, but that's my stance until I actually play test it. If anything the class is coming in a little weak at the moment IMO compared to an optimized ToB class.

To do list:
#Create a cure poison/disease (perhaps add a brief way to add to an allies energy acid resistance as well?) ability - great idea thanks
#Create a flavor trap skill that's fun and can be used in combat
#Reconsider his capstone level 20 ability contagious destruction

PS wow, this is hard :) I totally sympathize a lot more now with WoTC editors/writers.

Temotei
2010-01-19, 05:45 PM
lol, oh ya, woops! I meant to say energy resistance, not damage resistance, big difference indeed! hah.

Latronis- yeah but those bonuses to hit aren't till 12th level and then 18th level and only apply once. By then its not like a rogue or warrior wouldn't have true strike available. Have you seen some of the crazy things from tome of battle/book of nine swords that they get that he's competing with? IIRC you can build either a swordsage or a warblade + rogue that can do nearly the same things (sneak attack damage that ignores DR) + has other tricks and goodies.

And most of your example's damage comes from weapon mods. Class bonus damage is an average of 48 damage over two rounds... (average of 3d6 + 3d6 + one rupture of 10d6 = 48 damage over two rounds) not including contagious destruction. And if anything, your example only proves that contagious destruction is weak, since you're already going to be doing nearly 100 damage a round by 20 anyway, apparently most of it from weapon mods. If you add on Datura, then +20 damage over those two rounds. But that's assuming you're not using a more useful Bane effect. If anything, it probably should apply to each effect.

So about 35 damage a round on average from class abilities at level 20... with an occasional way to deal extra damage with contagious destruction (if its hps happen to land just below a hundred, instead of much much lower which is more likely.) This is sounding a bit underpowered if anything.


BTW thank you though latronis, don't get me wrong, I could be wrong, but that's my stance until I actually play test it. If anything the class is coming in a little weak at the moment IMO compared to an optimized ToB class.

To do list:
#Create a cure poison/disease (perhaps add a brief way to add to an allies energy acid resistance as well?) ability - great idea thanks
#Create a flavor trap skill that's fun and can be used in combat
#Reconsider his capstone level 20 ability contagious destruction

PS wow, this is hard :) I totally sympathize a lot more now with WoTC editors/writers.

Don't balance a class to optimized builds. Build it based on other classes. The warblade, factotum, and psychic warrior are good starts for balance levels.

Also, I'm agreeing on the cure ability. That would make the good and neutral options more viable.

Debihuman
2010-01-19, 08:09 PM
PS wow, this is hard :) I totally sympathize a lot more now with WoTC editors/writers.

It is indeed. Not just WotC but any gaming editor and writers. Not only do you have to be familiar with the rules and the terminology but you need to be able to take the feedback. It's pretty obvious that those of us writing on this thread think you've got a good idea with this class. It just needs refining. Think of this as a learning experience.

Debby