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View Full Version : Ride-By Attack questions [Pathfinder/3.5]



reefwood
2010-01-19, 06:02 PM
The rules are essentially the same for Ride-By Attack in D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder, at least the part I'm curious about, so if you know about either one, that works for me.

My questions are actually about movement with the Charge action because Ride-By Attack is based off it.


Charge

Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.

Ride-By Attack (Combat)

Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.

The debate that came up in my last gaming session (I am the DM) was over what counted as the closest square and whether reaching the closest square in some instances made it impossible to continue in a straight line (because the enemy was in the way of a clear path). The PC with RIde-By Attack is mounted on a horse with a lance (10 ft reach)*.

*Because a mounted character is considered to be in all squares in terms of making attacks and being attacked, I ruled that the player is able to attack targets adjacent to the horse with a reach weapon because he can consider her/himself in the back end of the horse, so technically 10 ft away to attack the target right in front of the horse. This does not affect the Ride-By Attack questions (I don't think) but just thought I'd mention it to see if anyone has input on this?

Here are a few examples:

1) S is where the mounted PC is starting. E is where the mounted PC ends movement. T is the target. X seems to be the closest square.


..........
..SS......
..SS......
..........
...X......
..........
....T.....
..........
..EE......
..EE......

The mounted PC makes a Charge straight south. When he reaches X, he has moved 2 squares for 10 ft (the minimum requirement for a Charge) and can reach T with his lance and makes an attack at that point. Then, he continues south and ends his movement in E. This all seems pretty straightforward, and there was no debate over whether this was a legal/correct use of Ride-By Attack.

However, one question that came up is whether moving in this direction is the ONLY way to use Ride-By Attack in this example?


2a) S is where the mounted PC is starting. E is where the mounted PC ends movement. T is the target. P is the position of the mount when the PC attacks, and Y is the square from which the PC attacks.



..........
..SS......
..SS......
....PP....
....YP....
..........
....T.....
........EE
........EE
..........


One possible problem with this example is that the mount needs to move 5 ft farther (because of diagonal movement, 2 squares = 15 ft) to reach this space. Although, the actual square from which the attack is made is still only 10 ft away from the starting position. Is this a legal Charge? Or would moving to this square to attack require a regular move action followed by a regular attack?

2b) This is a slight variation of the previous example. In this one, the mount has only moved 10 ft, but is this movement considered to be farther than the 10 ft in example #1 (because part of this move is one diagonal square)? Also, even though the mounted PC can make a Charge, it looks like he can't use Ride-By Attack because the straight line is blocked by T, so he stops in E (which is the same spot where he made the attack since he can't move after the attack). Is that correct? And of course, if T was taken out by the attack, T would be helpless and no longer block movement, so in that instance, Ride-By Attack can be used and the mounted PC could end movement in E2, yes?


.......... ..........
..SS...... ..........
..SS...... ..........
...PP..... ...EE.....
...PY..... ...EE.....
.......... ..........
....T..... ....T.....
.......... .......E2.
.......... .......E2.
.......... ..........


EDIT: Made corrections to last example. Ending position was incorrect at first.

EDIT #2: Another thing to mention is that the mounted PC does 3d8+3d6+33 damage on a mounted Charge, which has been enough to take out most enemies in a single blow, so being restricted to only doing this maybe once or twice per encounter (unless he wants to pull back every other round to get the distance needed for a Charge), isn't something I'm all that worried about. If the opportunity arises where he is able to make a Charge attack every round with Ride-By Attack, that is fine by me, but it's not like the Charge in/ Withdraw back method I just described is at all bad in terms of still doing a ton of damage in just a few rounds.

reefwood
2010-01-19, 06:21 PM
2b) Now I'm not sure whether T in this example is blocking the straight line or not? Here's a square-by-square view of the movement.



.......... .......... .......... .......... ..........
..SS...... .......... .......... .......... ..........
..SS...... .......... .......... .......... ..........
...PP..... .......... .......... .......... ..........
...PY..... ....PP.... .......... .......... ..........
.......... ....PP.... .....PP... .......... ..........
....T..... ....T..... ....TPP... ....T.PP.. ....T.....
.......... .......... .......... ......PP.. .......EE.
.......... .......... .......... .......... .......EE.
.......... .......... .......... .......... ..........


Can E move in a straight line by T like this? What if T was a corner? I think if T was a corner, a Charge along this line would not be allowed.

Darrin
2010-01-19, 07:43 PM
When the designers updated the charging rules from 3.0 to 3.5, they changed a few things (closest square, no stepping aside) that mucked up some mechanics in other areas. Either they didn't playtest it enough, or figured everyone would use common sense if a problem came up. Ride-By Attack suffers from one of these quirks (as does charging a medium creature with a reach weapon).

You might want to consider changing the rules on Ride-By Attack to allow a charge to "the closest square that still allows the mount to continue in a straight line". RAW is thtoopid, you kinda have to go RAI here.

reefwood
2010-01-20, 11:54 AM
When the designers updated the charging rules from 3.0 to 3.5, they changed a few things (closest square, no stepping aside) that mucked up some mechanics in other areas. Either they didn't playtest it enough, or figured everyone would use common sense if a problem came up. Ride-By Attack suffers from one of these quirks (as does charging a medium creature with a reach weapon).

You might want to consider changing the rules on Ride-By Attack to allow a charge to "the closest square that still allows the mount to continue in a straight line". RAW is thtoopid, you kinda have to go RAI here.

Thanks for responding. It's good to know that my friends & I aren't the only ones with some confusion over this. Anyone else have insights on these questions?

I never played 3.0, so I don't know how the Charge rules changed in 3.5, but I'm guessing they used to be less restrictive?

And what is the problem with charging a Medium creature with a reach weapon? You only have to move to the closest space that an attack can be made, not the closest space to the creature. So, if you have a reach weapon, you can stop 10 ft away from a Medium creature and still make a Charge attack. You should be able to do this even if there is another creature in the 5-ft space between you and the target because the clear path is only needed for movement, not the attack.

reefwood
2010-01-21, 03:06 PM
Anyone else?