League of Legends. [Archive] - Page 3 - Giant in the Playground Forums

Terazul

2010-04-20, 09:06 PM

I just bought Mordekaiser and... I'm terrible. I just don't get the guy. You're supposed to be offensive to charge your shield but that drains all your HP. At the same time, if you concentrate on HP and HP regen items, you're too weak to be very effective.

I'm getting slaughtered terribly, and could really use some advice.

Well you can generally either go DPS, or Tanky. The trick is to, yeah, get lifesteal/health regen/some other way of restoring life. For DPS I'd go with Vampiric Scepter (turn it into a Stark's Fervor or Bloodthirster later). Haunting Guise is incredible for either build, as a large chunk of your damage is magical. Also pick up a Spirit Visage. Nets you cooldown reduction, MR, Regen, and all forms of healing (including lifesteal) are boosted by 25%.

I used to play DPS Mord, but it has somewhat of a slow start, and I enjoy the survivability of Tank Mord a bit more. You just have to realize that alot of your kills will be more from outlasting your opponent early game. Just played a 20/8/26 as tank Mord with...

Force of Nature
Spirit Visage
Mercury Treads
Sunfire Cape
Sunfire Cape (Had a Haunting Guise here for most of the game, but switched it out as it dragged on)
Rylai's Scepter (Frozen Mallet also works here)

Setup seems to work pretty well, though trading out FoN for Warden's/Thorn Mail for Physical-heavy teams. If you're going for DPS, I'd suggest picking up a Trinity Force+Lifesteal Item of Choice+Spirit Visage and go from there. Also use Ignite. Try to combo it with his ult.

Thrawn183

2010-04-20, 10:47 PM

I guess I'll go ahead and post mine:
US, Thrawnyboy
Best heroes are probably Poppy and Soraka.

Poison_Fish

2010-04-21, 01:39 AM

Moklok

2010-04-21, 02:07 AM

Get ignite and cleanse. Get the big HP regen pendent. Stand in creep waves with your cone and hammer attacks, always have shield, be a pain to harass out of a lane. Heck, even + HP runes or even HP regen runes may help. But overall, that's generally what I see good morde's doing (Including solo'ing mid).

It can also be used to create a Warmogs later on, so its not a complete waste to pick up Regrowth Pendant first. Going Doran's Shield+1pot works too, or boots+3pots is decent to make you even more annoying(Morde has 315 movement speed with no boots).

Brother Oni

2010-04-21, 06:26 AM

Haunting Guise is incredible for either build, as a large chunk of your damage is magical.

Now this I didn't know. That'll explain why Mordekaiser inflicts so much damage to my tank champions...

I guess I'll go ahead and post mine:
US, Thrawnyboy name (don't know which you add)

You add the summoner name not login one.

You may want to remove your login name from your post as it's a security risk.

It can also be used to create a Warmogs later on, so its not a complete waste to pick up Regrowth Pendant first. Going Doran's Shield+1pot works too, or boots+3pots is decent to make you even more annoying(Morde has 315 movement speed with no boots).

Provided you remember to sell Doran's shield when you get better stuff, it's not too bad. Going for Regrowth pendant to build into Warmogs would be a better start though in my opinion.

One thing I've noticed is the sheer variety of champions means that unless you've played everyone since beta, you end up facing champions you have no idea of their capabilities (see Mordekaiser above).

I've seen a larger number of people getting far too close to me as Cho'gath on low health (Om nom nom!). I tried Ryze for the first time yesterday - I knew the boy could inflict some serious damage but I never knew exactly how much. I may have to buy him as nuking everything in sight appeals to my aggressive nature. :smallbiggrin:

A question to other Cho'gath players - is it wrong to enjoy going "RAWR!!!" as you chase people through the jungle when you have 6 Feast stacks? :smallbiggrin:

Moklok

2010-04-21, 07:03 AM

I tried Ryze for the first time yesterday - I knew the boy could inflict some serious damage but I never knew exactly how much. I may have to buy him as nuking everything in sight appeals to my aggressive nature. :smallbiggrin:

If you liked Ryze, you would probably like Annie too. She hurts even more then Ryze(imo), can AOE stun very often, and is pretty durable. Shes like a Ryze but much better IMO.

Terazul

2010-04-21, 10:11 AM

Now this I didn't know. That'll explain why Mordekaiser inflicts so much damage to my tank champions...

Unless specified otherwise, most active abilities do magical damage on champions. But yeah, Siphon of Destruction (his cone AoE), Creeping Death (+MR/Armor Damaging Aura), and Call of the Grave (Ult), as well as the "echo" portion of Mace of Spades all do magical damage. Grab, say, 10 Magic Penetration in runes, the 9 point mastery in Offense, and a Haunting Guise, and BAM. Ignoring the first 15% of their MR, and then another 30 afterwards, which covers most champs unless they're smart enough to buy more MR.

Warmog's is nice and all, but the trick is to have "a lot" of HP without having "too much". Since otherwise, you become too vulnerable to %HP Reduction from stuff like Mundo's Cleaver, Madred's Bloodrazor, Deathfire Grasp, etc. But it's more a discretion thing; Like not buying an Archangel's Tear if you're fighting Veigar. If it's an all magic team I'll usually start with a Regrowth Pendant and rush a Force of Nature. Otherwise, get a Rejuvenation Bead + 3-5 potions, and build it into a Spirit Visage (I'd be getting one anyway) or Warden's Mail (heavy melee doods).

Cleanse is great because it is Cleanse. If you don't get Cleanse with your Ignite, get a movement skill like Ghost/Flash. Mord's not too slow, but his lack of CC makes it a little tougher to run someone down/get away.

Joran

2010-04-21, 10:32 AM

A question to other Cho'gath players - is it wrong to enjoy going "RAWR!!!" as you chase people through the jungle when you have 6 Feast stacks? :smallbiggrin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F7Jxud4rgI

You should say "omnomnomnom"

Moklok

2010-04-21, 11:29 AM

Warmog's is nice and all, but the trick is to have "a lot" of HP without having "too much". Since otherwise, you become too vulnerable to %HP Reduction from stuff like Mundo's Cleaver, Madred's Bloodrazor, Deathfire Grasp, etc. But it's more a discretion thing; Like not buying an Archangel's Tear if you're fighting Veigar. If it's an all magic team I'll usually start with a Regrowth Pendant and rush a Force of Nature. Otherwise, get a Rejuvenation Bead + 3-5 potions, and build it into a Spirit Visage (I'd be getting one anyway) or Warden's Mail (heavy melee doods).

1- As long as you are building up your other tank stats, you can never have "too much HP" like you said. The more HP you have, the longer you are in there providing support for you allies. Even if they take Deathfire or Madred's, gaining more HP is ALWAYS beneficial.....but not always the best choice. Most tanks will be ranging in the 3k-3.5k range near the end of a game, which is what you should be aiming for to be comfortable end game, but you can definitly go above 4k easily if the game becomes too long.

2- Spirit Visage on Mord? Why? No self healing skills so the healing bonus is not that great unless you have a Soraka or Taric, then that stat might be worth it. 20 HP/5.......Not really worth mentioning. So you are left with 33MR and 12% CDR for 1250 gold? Dunno.....Then again im not a Morde fan so I am probably missing something.

Terazul

2010-04-21, 06:48 PM

1- As long as you are building up your other tank stats, you can never have "too much HP" like you said. The more HP you have, the longer you are in there providing support for you allies.

2- Spirit Visage on Mord? Why? No self healing skills so the healing bonus is not that great unless you have a Soraka or Taric, then that stat might be worth it.

1 - The point was you can get that without A warmog's, easily. Just a matter of taste, though I do fine without one.
2 - Uh. It applies to your health regen (and lifesteal). Also, get a Haunting Guise, which will not only make you hit about 25% Harder from Magic Pen alone, but also adds Spell Vamp. Also his ult lifesteals. It may seem unnoticable at low levels, but drop it on a 4k health tank, and you just healed 1280 over 8 seconds. Before AP or the Bonus from the Guise. Or the bonus for the Spirit Visage. Really, I have never seen a good Mord that didn't have a Spirit Visage.

But eh.

Shades of Gray

2010-04-21, 08:53 PM

I suppose I'll post my item builds for critique.

Singed:

1) Regrowth Pendant (Extra Health Regen)
2) Sapphire Crystal (Extra Mana)
3) Boots of Speed + Null-Magic Mantle = Mercury's Treads (Extra Speed and reduces time spent stunned/slowed/immobilized/feared maybe)
4) Blasting Wand or Catalyst the protector, build to Rod of Ages (Good boost to HP, Mana, and AP. I get more as the game goes on)
5) Thornmail/Guardian Angel/Banshee Veil depending on the enemy team.
6) I rarely get past this... But then I go Abyssal Scepter or Zhonya's. (For that extra AP boost for ganking)

QEQEQREQEWRQEWRWWW

(Q: Poison Trail. Toggle to use a poison trail, poisoning those who enter it.
W: Mega Adhesive. Make an area of ground slow people.
E: Fling. Melee attack launches enemy behind you, dealing a good amount of damage.)

Tristana

I play an AP variant of Tristana, focusing on her ult, rocket jump, and explosive shot over the more traditional "spam attack speed and damage"

1) Regrowth Pendant --> Philosopher's Stone (For mid-lane staying power)
2) Boots of Speed (For chasing)
3) Mejal's Soulstealer (Extra AP each kill.)
4) Sorcerer's Boots (Extra speed and spell pen. I might take swiftness if I'm dealing with someone really fast and fragile, like Twitch.)
5) Lich Bane (Because it is too good not to)
6) Again, rarely get past this. Would go for Abyssal Scepter, Zhonya's, or maybe a defensive item depending on the opposing team.

WEWEQRWEWERQWERQQQ
(Q: Rapid Fire. Attack up to 90% faster.
W: Rocket Jump. Teleport to location, deal damage and slow in AoE
E: Explosive Shot. Active: DoT. Passive: Whenever you kill something it explodes, dealing damage in an area. Works no matter how you kill them.)

Gragas

1) Sapphire Crystal (For early staying power)
2) Boots of Speed (To turn into the shoes)
3) Build Crystal into the Rod of Ages, going for Blasting Wand or Catalyst first if I'm low on cash. (Good scaling powers for Gragas, he needs a good balance)
4) Turn the boots into Sorcerer's Shoes. (For good ol' spell penetration)
5) Nashor's Tooth (Shooting a barrel every other second is just too good)
6) Abyssal Scepter (Melee AP caster's love this)

QEWQQREQEQRWEERWWW
(Q: Barrel Roll. Skill Shot AoE damage. W: Drunken Rage. Drink beer to get mana and combat stats. E: Body Slam. Move to a location, AoE damage on impact and slows.)

Moklok

2010-04-21, 09:27 PM

2 - Uh. It applies to your health regen (and lifesteal). Also, get a Haunting Guise, which will not only make you hit about 25% Harder from Magic Pen alone, but also adds Spell Vamp. Also his ult lifesteals. It may seem unnoticable at low levels, but drop it on a 4k health tank, and you just healed 1280 over 8 seconds. Before AP or the Bonus from the Guise. Or the bonus for the Spirit Visage. Really, I have never seen a good Mord that didn't have a Spirit Visage.

But eh.

The buff applying to your lifesteal isnt very important since tanks dont really lifesteal. It buffing HP regen....early game I guess its ok but do you ever need life regen past lvl 6-7?

And dropping the ult on the tank, yes it gives you decent health gain, but that tank will most likely also have much higher MR, and isnt as big of a threat as the actual DPSers. Dropping it on a physical carry and getting the ghost can turn a battle around in some cases, while getting the health back isnt that important. Even getting the tank ghost doesnt really do anything.

Terazul

2010-04-21, 10:05 PM

Poison_Fish

2010-04-21, 10:29 PM

Given you don't really play mord to begin with, I'm just gonna take my 15/6/10 and assume you have no idea what you're talking about. But that's coo. Also implying that health regen isn't important past level 5. HOO BOY.

@Shades: Uhh. Don't buy two pairs of boots. Just stick with Sorcs if you're AP.

One game does not make a hero build solid.

To quote Condon
The same goes for "Omg wicked builds" you see on peoples profiles. Just because slappy there won 200 games with Blitz built a certain way doesn't mean it will work for you. Maybe he rolls in a premade that work very well together, and uses that build to fill a minor niche. Maybe he's just a redname and sets all his losses to wins. Who knows. Chances are, if you try it yourself, and think "This is dumb" before you even finish the game, it's probably not for you.

But frankly, building parts for a warmogs is going to be better then the spirit visage. You tank with your shield early game, and the big HP regen pendent will cover you for the cost in your health for abilities and early harassment. Also, cleanse/ignite on Morde works so well. You want to be a big target while in their team. Cleanse makes sure you can help with that and keep your shield going.

Spirit visage is frankly meh on Morde builds. There are better items to go for on him. Like a Rylais, or (yes in fact), a warmogs. He gains creep kills fast enough that he really will get good use out of it quickly, and it provides good early game regen for him.

Terazul

2010-04-21, 10:42 PM

I speak not for one, but several. But hey, everyone is entitled to an opinion, no? I personally find spirit visage to be a great asset, but you're welcome to disagree. Warmog's is a great item, and works for tons of Mord builds. I don't really like it because it doesn't offer any other defensive stats sans HP/regen, and takes a bit longer to build early game (It's expensive as all crap).

I find that SV Works for me, but WA doesn't. Feel free to do what you please, I'm just offering my own experiences with it.

Moklok

2010-04-21, 10:57 PM

Given you don't really play mord to begin with, I'm just gonna take my 15/6/10 and assume you have no idea what you're talking about. But that's coo. Also implying that health regen isn't important past level 5. HOO BOY.

Just saying "I assume you dont know what you are talking about" doesnt mean anything if you dont even bother countering my points.

And yes, HP regen is useless past early laning phase. The point of HP regen is to allow you to stay in a lane as long as you can, and allow you to get as much gold as you possibly can. Once you reach 6-7, Team fights and ganks will start. Most regens just dont do anything past that point. Exceptions are characters like Mundo or Singed, Force of Nature, Warmogs, those regen numbers actually make a difference in fights. Spirit Visage can be counted in those if you have a healer on your team.

Poison_Fish

2010-04-21, 11:11 PM

Just saying "I assume you dont know what you are talking about" doesnt mean anything if you dont even bother countering my points.

And yes, HP regen is useless past early laning phase. The point of HP regen is to allow you to stay in a lane as long as you can, and allow you to get as much gold as you possibly can. Once you reach 6-7, Team fights and ganks will start. Most regens just dont do anything past that point. Exceptions are characters like Mundo or Singed, Force of Nature, Warmogs, those regen numbers actually make a difference in fights. Spirit Visage can be counted in those if you have a healer on your team.

Or your heal gets even more massive: a la Mundo.

I think this might be more of a disconnect and difference that a few of us are playing at roughly high ELO and others are not. But for me and I assume Mok here, lanning basically breaks down fairly quickly. Standing around in a lane forever isn't going to be happening much for us unless both teams are there and are trying to get a good initiation on each other.

Terazul

2010-04-21, 11:15 PM

I'll admit that was a bit rude of me and out of line, and I apologize for that.

Back to the discussion at hand though. That's why I pointed out that I usually get a FoN with a Spirit Visage. It's not like I only get a single regen item and call it a day, as I'll agree it's a pretty "meh" item by itself, but really, I get alot of use out of it, especially at those chasey team fights where a few extra seconds gets me a few hundred HP back, and the cooldown reduction is legitimately useful. Really, we keep talking Warmog's which is pure HP/Regen, why not boost that regen anyway? I like it early game if I'm dealing with a magic heavy team (like a Ryze) for the bonus MR, and it's relatively cheap. If I'm against pure phys I'll generally grab a Warden's Mail instead. Which I've said. Everyone says "regen bonus on a character without passive regen? Jeeze." I find it to be more useful because he lacks it. Needs all the help he can get.

I never said it was the end-all be-all. I just play a regen-heavy Mord where it's worked well for me. Just sayin'.

Shades of Gray

2010-04-22, 04:08 PM

@Shades: Uhh. Don't buy two pairs of boots. Just stick with Sorcs if you're AP.

I turn the boots into Sorc's later. Boots of Speed --> Sorcerer's shoes. I never have two pairs.

Brother Oni

2010-04-24, 01:48 PM

Anybody turning up in an hour?

Dallas-Dakota

2010-04-26, 09:42 AM

Moklok

2010-04-26, 09:51 AM

So I've been playing Malphite much lately.

He's fun, but I don't have much experience with carries.
So any advice on not getting killed a lot yet still leveling properly in begin game?

Also item advice(except y'know, standard Ninja Tabbi + sunfire capes)?

Malphite isnt a carry, hes a tank.

Im not much of a Malphite player(used to play him quite a bit when he was OP:smallbiggrin:) but a general rule of LoL is to not assume 1 pair of boots is the best in all situations. If you are facing a caster/CC heavy team, you will want Merc Treads instead of Tabi. Same goes with most tank items builds actually. Always go for what counters the opponents team setup. Some games you will need a Banshee, others, not. Some games you can get like 3 Hearts of Gold and a Frozen heart, other games, that would be suicide.

I guess my tip for your item build is to not have an item build lol.

Poison_Fish

2010-04-26, 11:34 AM

Malphite isnt a carry, hes a tank.

Im not much of a Malphite player(used to play him quite a bit when he was OP:smallbiggrin:) but a general rule of LoL is to not assume 1 pair of boots is the best in all situations. If you are facing a caster/CC heavy team, you will want Merc Treads instead of Tabi. Same goes with most tank items builds actually. Always go for what counters the opponents team setup. Some games you will need a Banshee, others, not. Some games you can get like 3 Hearts of Gold and a Frozen heart, other games, that would be suicide.

I guess my tip for your item build is to not have an item build lol.

Correction, he's a Tank/DPS, much like Nassus and to a much lesser extent, Mundo/Poppy. He can do massive damage.

Brother Oni

2010-04-26, 11:49 AM

Nevertheless there are standard items that will generally serve tanks well.

If the opposing team is all physical, then Ninja Tabi, Thornmail, Warden's Mail and Frozen Heart are all good items. Against mages, Force of Nature, Mercury Treads and Banshee's Veil are nice.

Guardian Angel and Warmog's Armour are pretty much standard on any tank, although there are often better items to get first.

Joran

2010-04-26, 12:17 PM

Guardian Angel and Warmog's Armour are pretty much standard on any tank, although there are often better items to get first.

Depends on the tank. Tanks with an ability that mitigates a lot of incoming damage don't need Warmog's or Guardian Angel. I play Alistar a lot and I don't have anywhere near the gold flow for a Warmog's nor do I need it for survivability. Likewise with Rammus. However, it's a good choice for Nasus if he wants some survivability.

Correction, he's a Tank/DPS, much like Nassus and to a much lesser extent, Mundo/Poppy. He can do massive damage.

Yup, he has the ability to be a superb tank/initiator and deals a truckload of damage if geared for it. Malphite is one of the champions that has a ton of different build possibilities depending on enemy champions and what role you want to play.

It gets harder since his abilities scale with different attributes. His passive scales with HP. His ground pound scales with Armor. His shard + ultimate scales with AP. His hits scale with AD.

So, if you're up against a lot of physical heroes, stack armor so your ground pound both does more damage and slows incoming attacks and you mitigate a lot of their damage. If you need to deal more damage and be more of a carry, you should gear towards more attack damage. If you're up against casters, stack HP and MR so you aren't insta-gibbed. There's just so many choices as Malphite, although hearts of gold are probably a good early choice, since it gives both health and armor as well as gold flow. He's sadly not one of the champions where you can cruise-control with a set item build, like my Alistar.

So any advice on not getting killed a lot yet still leveling properly in begin game?

Well, same stuff as all champions. Stand behind your creep wave, farm when you have the chance. Watch the mini-map and listen to MIAs to avoid ganks. When in doubt, play conservative and hug the tower. More specific guidance depends on your laning partner and opponents which will come with more playtime and experience.

Moklok

2010-04-26, 03:54 PM

He's sadly not one of the champions where you can cruise-control with a set item build, like my Alistar.

1. Get lvl 8 locket
2. Gather all 5 in mid
3. ????
4. Profit

Sadly getting nerfed next patch, R.I.P.

Joran

2010-04-26, 09:27 PM

1. Get lvl 8 locket
2. Gather all 5 in mid
3. ????
4. Profit

Sadly getting nerfed next patch, R.I.P.

I'm actually not one of the locket Alistars; I'm a Chalice + Frozen Heart Alistar.
If my allies wanted AoE healing, I should have been playing Taric ;) Although his AoE healing is also gone in the next patch, along with Rally, assuming everything in the Test Realm goes live.

P.S. For the price of the locket, I can get both Chalice of Harmony and Glacial Shroud. I lose a bit of AoE healing and mana generation, but gain a lot of personal resiliency and lowered cooldowns.

Milskidasith

2010-04-26, 09:36 PM

I'm actually not one of the locket Alistars; I'm a Chalice + Frozen Heart Alistar.
If my allies wanted AoE healing, I should have been playing Taric ;) Although his AoE healing is also gone in the next patch, along with Rally, assuming everything in the Test Realm goes live.

P.S. For the price of the locket, I can get both Chalice of Harmony and Glacial Shroud. I lose a bit of AoE healing and mana generation, but gain a lot of personal resiliency and lowered cooldowns.

Locket isn't even that great of an item... the stats are bad, and even with absurdly short cooldowns you're spamming every few seconds, it doesn't do much by the time you can get it. Only a superfarm character that also casts a ton of spells, like pure starfall soraka, can really afford one.

Locket Tankdyr, though, is a neat concept; absurdly spammable spells, decent CC if you bearstun people, decent tankiness from turtle, and locket being constantly refreshed as much as possible (it doesn't stack, but it does refresh the buff, so he has it on his allies 100% of the time).

Basically, Locket is a laning item that costs so much it's useless for laning, like Tiamat. Speaking of Tiamat, it either needs the pickaxe removed from its recipe, or given a much, much wider, much more damaging AoE for it's cost, because all the stats it gives are useless past the laning phase besides the attack damage.

Joran

2010-04-27, 02:11 PM

1. Get lvl 8 locket
2. Gather all 5 in mid
3. ????
4. Profit

Sadly getting nerfed next patch, R.I.P.

If you manage to get the 2650 gold (2250 gold assuming you bought a mana crystal first and nothing else when laning) to get the Locket by level 8 with Alistar, you're already rolling over the other team. Alistar farms exceptionally poorly.

Regarding the patch: Patch drops tonight, it looks like everything that was in the test realm goes live, including the two new items.

Poison_Fish

2010-04-27, 03:52 PM

Regarding the patch: Patch drops tonight, it looks like everything that was in the test realm goes live, including the two new items.

The real question: I wonder how long it'll be before an ordinary magician or a shrine maiden of paradise show up.

Dallas-Dakota

2010-04-28, 03:33 PM

So what does playground think of Garen so far?

As far as I've seen him, totally my style and I'm gonna really like him.

Saving up for him, need around 400 more points...

Dragor

2010-04-28, 03:46 PM

I just want to play Garen based on how crazy-awesome he looks alone. I'm a sucker for playing champions I visually like and can stand hearing, rather than ones I'm good with (Although chances are if you like how they look, you'll like how they play- it's gone pretty well for me so far). I'm watching the spotlight now, and I like what I see. Time for a night of LoL, it seems. :smallbiggrin:

Joran

2010-04-28, 04:01 PM

So what does playground think of Garen so far?

As far as I've seen him, totally my style and I'm gonna really like him.

Saving up for him, need around 400 more points...

Bought him using RP last night, but haven't given him a shot yet. He seems very structurally similar to Mordekaiser. I have high hopes.

Poison_Fish

2010-04-28, 04:35 PM

Bought him using RP last night, but haven't given him a shot yet. He seems very structurally similar to Mordekaiser. I have high hopes.

Him and Janna in a lane = early game lol's, since a lot of his abilities scale off attack damage. Janna's shield + spin = ouch.

Moklok

2010-04-28, 05:23 PM

Him and Janna in a lane = early game lol's, since a lot of his abilities scale off attack damage. Janna's shield + spin = ouch.

Not just that, but if Janna lands a tornado, they will simply die, unless they have a Heal ready.

Astrella

2010-04-28, 05:57 PM

Blech, his ult is just incredibly annoying.
(It's almost going as far as me not playing Lol for the coming week, till the two Garens' per match syndrome has toned down a bit...)

Poison_Fish

2010-04-28, 06:27 PM

Not just that, but if Janna lands a tornado, they will simply die, unless they have a Heal ready.

That and his silence to keep anyone from getting away. On top of the shield + his damage reduction allowing them to tower dive. They are actually quite a nice combo together.

Science Officer

2010-04-28, 07:50 PM

Just posting here to say that it was me, Science Officer that played with and sent a friend request to Alterform.

You can add me to your list if you like. I might end up posting more in this thread.

Shades of Gray

2010-04-29, 03:40 AM

Rama

2010-04-29, 07:49 AM

/breaks out the nerf bat

Yeh, sign me up for the Garens-ult-is-horribly-overpowered club. Taking down my tanks from halfish health in one chop. Think it needs a hard damage cap.

Interesting character concept, but is it just me or is he basically Tryndamere but better?

Moklok

2010-04-29, 11:33 AM

I'm a bit late, but my build with Alistar:

1) Meki Pendant, two mana pots.
2) Pendant-->Chalice of Harmony
3) Boots --> Merc's, Berserker's, or maybe even tabi.
4) Atma's Impaler
5) Either Sheen, Last Whisper, or Force of Nature.

Ive played Alistar quite alot before, and IMO the best boots in almost every situation are Boots of Swiftness. His ult makes it so you dont exactly need the stats off of the other boots in actual team fights, while the extra speed off of Swiftness makes it so you can actually chase most people down and send them towards allies, or simply innitiate fights better.

Other item I would suggest is rushing for Innervating Locket but thats just a different playstyle I guess.

Joran

2010-04-29, 11:57 AM

Ive played Alistar quite alot before, and IMO the best boots in almost every situation are Boots of Swiftness. His ult makes it so you dont exactly need the stats off of the other boots in actual team fights, while the extra speed off of Swiftness makes it so you can actually chase most people down and send them towards allies, or simply innitiate fights better.

Other item I would suggest is rushing for Innervating Locket but thats just a different playstyle I guess.

I prefer Frozen Heart. Adds a nice bit of armor to the mix as well as decreases the cooldowns on my pummel and headbutt, so I can disrupt a lot more during team fights. The aura effect is a massive debuff to physical attack champions. I also need the mana to keep spamming my spells.

I go with Tier 2 boots, either Ninja Tabis or Mercury's Treads depending on matchup. Mercury's Treads with Chalice gives me enough Magic Resist to survive a caster without needing to use the Ultimate. Ninja Tabis + the full set of dodge runes gives me 18% dodge and the speed boost from dodging makes up for the lack of speed from the boots. I like having survivability outside of depending on the ultimate, because the ultimate only lasts 6-8 seconds, which is longer than some team fights.

To make up for the lack of speed to initiate, I go with both flash and ghost for my summoner spells.

Poison_Fish

2010-04-29, 12:27 PM

I go clairvoyance (So useful, considering I usually play in a 5 man or with slightly less) and flash, I go swiftness as well. If anything, it makes setting up a stun -> head butt so much more simple. I still get chalice, but depending on my team, I'm either going soul shroud or locket. If we are more of a hit and run team with not a lot of mana, soulshroud. If we are standing around a lot keeping up pressure, locket makes more sense. The main thing is reduced cool downs for your stuns is so useful in team fights.

Moklok

2010-04-30, 11:40 PM

Whenever I played Alistar back then, it was with a premade that we had me and 3 friends. We would have Taric, Alistar both in 1 lane, then Kat and Corki(Kat usually was mid). I would start with Mana Manip, rush for Locket, would usually get it by lvl 8, or earlier depending on how the laning went, then get boots3 and Soul Shroud, if the game isnt over already. The other 3 items would probably just depend on what the other team is.

An organized team of lvl 8 with a Locket Alistar is pretty much unstoppable. I still havent lost a single match with this build while queueing with 3+ people.

Astrella

2010-05-01, 02:26 PM

Anyone gonna show up today?

Dallas-Dakota

2010-05-01, 02:33 PM

Yeah, after I watch this movie, so later tonight.

Silverraptor

2010-05-02, 11:30 AM

I was just on as tryd. I'm just on a roll today!:smallbiggrin:

Astrella

2010-05-02, 11:50 AM

Poison_Fish

2010-05-02, 12:55 PM

I'm really enjoying playing Gragas at the moment.
I max out his W and E first, with only one level taken in his Q initially.
Still trying out things concerning item build, but going with
Aegis of The Legion, Ninja Tabi, Frozen Mallet, Frozen Heart
at the moment.

I do a support gragas, Locket, soul shroud, rylais. I max out q, with one in w and e, and I usually start with a mana manipulator. The thing is, Gragas can hang around forever and just heal from his abilities. Q gives you extremely good harass, w keeps you in a lane, and e helps you get in closer or leave.

Also, exploding barrels that slow are just useful.

Shades of Gray

2010-05-02, 01:41 PM

I play an AP Gragas. I've gotten around 6-11 kills each match with it and only 0-2 deaths each match.

1) Buy a Sapphire Crystal, a health pot, and a mana pot.
2) Buy the basic boots.
3) Save up for a blasting wand. If you happen to be at the base when you can afford a catalyst and not the wand, buy the catalyst.
4) Boots->Sorcerer's Shoes.
5) Build Rod of Ages.
6) Fiendish Codex--> Nashor's Tooth.
7) Most matches are over by now. The item progression goes: Void Staff, Haunting Guise/Banshee Veil, Zhonya's Ring.

The build relies on farming minions.

Astrella

2010-05-02, 01:51 PM

Blech, this is just getting absurd, why is that that everytime I want to play Gragas it ends with 3-4 queue drops...

Joran

2010-05-03, 11:18 AM

Blech, this is just getting absurd, why is that that everytime I want to play Gragas it ends with 3-4 queue drops...

Preconceptions basically. He used to be subpar, but with his recent buffs he's definitely viable. I saw him in play during the Razor 3v3 tournament.

P.S. Janna is now more annoying than Shaco =P

Silverraptor

2010-05-03, 11:32 AM

I just want to say, that all my retreated from the enemies base when I just entered from the bottom side. I was ambushed by all 5 enemy champions and I was tryd. I actually managed to kill a 2 level higher then me Warwick and was only 2 hits from killing a one level higher then me Jax before they finally got me.

Suffice to say, we won within 5 minutes after that.:smallbiggrin:

Okay, that is all.

Moklok

2010-05-03, 01:30 PM

Preconceptions basically. He used to be subpar, but with his recent buffs he's definitely viable. I saw him in play during the Razor 3v3 tournament.

P.S. Janna is now more annoying than Shaco =P

Hes one of the good 3v3 hero because his early game is ridiculous, and most chars with good survivability and good early game are good in TT. He isnt bad in 5v5 either. Played him recently and completly dominated with him, was pretty funny.

Joran

2010-05-03, 05:06 PM

Hes one of the good 3v3 hero because his early game is ridiculous, and most chars with good survivability and good early game are good in TT. He isnt bad in 5v5 either. Played him recently and completly dominated with him, was pretty funny.

Hmm... Apparently, one thing holding Gragas back is that his body slam collides with any champion ability that's persistent. So, if Singed is creating a poison trail and Gagras slams into the trail, he'll stop when he collides with it...

Thankfully they seem to be fixing that along with Garen's accidental 5 second stun...

P.S. I really need to learn to be sneaky when playing Garen, although solo queues aren't the greatest places to find tanks =P

Shades of Gray

2010-05-03, 08:42 PM

Just went 16-2 with Gragas. Trying out Archangel's Staff, it seems to halt my mana issues, and actually provides good AP to boot.

Planning on getting Katarina next.

EDIT: Has anyone tried out the custom skins at Leaguecraft? I've seen them used in-game on youtube, and they seem to work. Not sure if other players can see them.

Brother Oni

2010-05-04, 01:43 AM

EDIT: Has anyone tried out the custom skins at Leaguecraft? I've seen them used in-game on youtube, and they seem to work. Not sure if other players can see them.

Since they replace files on your install, only you can see them.

On the other hand, it applies to anybody using that character and skin, so if you change Kennen to his pikachu skin, whenever there is a Kennen with the default skin, you'll see a pikachu even if you're not using him.

Bear in mind that you may have to reinstall the original skin before patching as it may break something during the patching process.

Dallas-Dakota

2010-05-05, 03:35 AM

The skins seem to be working fine to me.

Atleast, I've never bought/used them. Not enough real money for that.

But I've played with people who use them and I can see them just fine.(The skins)

Brother Oni

2010-05-05, 06:20 AM

The skins seem to be working fine to me.

Atleast, I've never bought/used them. Not enough real money for that.

But I've played with people who use them and I can see them just fine.(The skins)

Are you talking about the custom skins or the official alternate skins? I'd be very surprised if you could see a custom skin someone else is using that you don't have installed on your machine.

If you could, it makes a mockery of the developers selling the alternate skins for Riot Points, since you could just download and use them without paying for them, since the whole point of the alternate skins is (in my opinion) showing it off to other people.

Longcat

2010-05-05, 06:31 PM

Wow, quite the LoL community here. What do you guys think about Ezreal? AP or AD? For me, it seems like AD hits harder and is a better carry, but AP provides more support and some fun KS with his ult.

Shades of Gray

2010-05-05, 06:38 PM

Poison_Fish

2010-05-06, 03:25 AM

Ezreal? Personally I'd go with an AP build on him. But then again I absolutely love AP characters, so your mileage may vary.

Just did a match with Gragas and a 5-man premade. We were getting our arses kicked (enemy got three or four aces) but somehow we managed to destroy all the enemy towers in the middle lane in a few seconds and pushed for the win (all of our towers having been destroyed.)

I am also really annoyed. I have 175 deaths with Gragas... And 174 kills.

Those are just accidents Gragas had while drunk. Those are not deaths.

I prefer an AD ez, but depending on what else is on the team, an AP is just as good. If we are heavy physical, I'd go AP, if not AD.

Dragor

2010-05-06, 04:34 AM

What annoys me at the moment is that I can't use my Visa debit card to buy Riot Points. Which means I'm missing out on some of the champs I really want to give a go, such as Cho'Gath, and can't buy skins like the Warrior Princess Sivir skin, which I mostly actually want just because it covers her up more and, hell, it's frickin' Xena. I love the buying system on LoL- it's fair and worth it, compared to *hackspit* Battlefield Heroes- but it's a shame that I can't use it without having to strain myself with Paypal. 7 days waiting for money transfer is very, very painful. :smallfrown:

Dallas-Dakota

2010-05-06, 04:49 AM

And it makes you play.

Because you waaaaant those points. And you want to buy those heroes.

And oh yeah, it's fun too.:smalltongue:

Saving up for : Twitch, Nidalee and Cho'gath.

Brother Oni

2010-05-06, 06:30 AM

And it makes you play.

Because you waaaaant those points. And you want to buy those heroes.

And oh yeah, it's fun too.:smalltongue:

Saving up for : Twitch, Nidalee and Cho'gath.

Riot points are different from the IP you earn after a match.

The problem is that the costing is a bit weird - some champions which cost different Riot Points have the same IP cost, making Riot Points less attractive to me.

I've unlocked Twitch, but I never get a chance to play him, since due to the team composition, I always have to change to a tank because nobody else wants to play one.

Joran

2010-05-06, 11:34 AM

Riot points are different from the IP you earn after a match.

The problem is that the costing is a bit weird - some champions which cost different Riot Points have the same IP cost, making Riot Points less attractive to me.

Well, I bought Riot Points to buy Champion Packs; it was much cheaper than individually buying champions and I could save my IP for runes. I ended up spending $50 on the game, which is about the amount of money to buy a new computer game and I'm getting a ton of mileage out of LoL.

I've unlocked Twitch, but I never get a chance to play him, since due to the team composition, I always have to change to a tank because nobody else wants to play one.

Yup, and sadly, as you get better at the game, the 5 carry teams you tend to see at lower ELO will just get you rolled. Yet no one wants to play a tank.

Poison_Fish

2010-05-06, 01:35 PM

Yup, and sadly, as you get better at the game, the 5 carry teams you tend to see at lower ELO will just get you rolled. Yet no one wants to play a tank.

This is why Mundo goes where he pleases.

Sadly, Mundo is not that great of an initiator, and at top level he actually works better as a melee DPS. Still, in solo queues I've basically just entertained myself doing Mundo.

Moklok

2010-05-06, 02:47 PM

This is why Mundo goes where he pleases.

Sadly, Mundo is not that great of an initiator, and at top level he actually works better as a melee DPS. Still, in solo queues I've basically just entertained myself doing Mundo.

I used to consider Mundo a tank. Guess how stupid I felt when I realized he wasnt a tank lol. I kind of like Mundo in 5v5, but my biggest issue is he brings nothing to the table except a skillshot slow, and single target bursts.

Poison_Fish

2010-05-06, 03:32 PM

I used to consider Mundo a tank. Guess how stupid I felt when I realized he wasnt a tank lol. I kind of like Mundo in 5v5, but my biggest issue is he brings nothing to the table except a skillshot slow, and single target bursts.

He's much better in TT, true. Granted, Mundo is the king of early game in 5's, since his spam able slow can dominate a lane. Sadly, he really can only focus on one target, so he's not the best, but he's not terrible.

Longcat

2010-05-06, 04:17 PM

The best thing about Mundo (apart from the fact that he will go where he pleases) is that he's a great DPS with minimal ATK dmg items. Just stack up HP and ATK speed, and hit Masochism. That said, he's completely unviable as a tank, since he's got almost no CC/taunts or other abilities to make him a desirable target.

IMO, the only viable tank in the current metagame is Shen. AoE taunt, great damage mitigation, great early game and supreme mobility make him the top choice among tanks in solo que. That, and he's a flippin' Ninja!

Brother Oni

2010-05-06, 04:27 PM

I do quite well with Cho'gath built as a tank in 5v5. My only issue is that I don't do much damage without Feast unless I pick up an Atma's or some AP.

I did just go 9/0/3 in a game though where I ate everything that didn't run away in time and slowed/silenced everything that did. :smallbiggrin:

Speaking of flippin' ninja, anybody heard anything about Alkali?

Longcat

2010-05-06, 04:55 PM

Akali Preview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQRING0bYak)

Personally, I like Cho'gath, although dying with him sucks so much, especially with the buggy Guardian Angel.

Astrella

2010-05-06, 07:56 PM

Ah, hoping Akali only is a 3150 IP hero, that way I can immediately buy her with my IP reserve at the moment.

Also, why hasn't anyone told me Mundo is such a fun hero. :smalltongue:

Moklok

2010-05-06, 11:54 PM

Also, why hasn't anyone told me Mundo is such a fun hero. :smalltongue:

Because I assumed everyone knew of Mundo's awesomeness. I appologize.

IMO, the only viable tank in the current metagame is Shen. AoE taunt, great damage mitigation, great early game and supreme mobility make him the top choice among tanks in solo que. That, and he's a flippin' Ninja!

I completly disagree. I still think Alistar is a very strong tank. Definitly on par with Shen.

Joran

2010-05-07, 10:58 AM

I completly disagree. I still think Alistar is a very strong tank. Definitly on par with Shen.

I'd agree. Alistar is still an awesome tank, who's pretty darn survivable with an awesome AoE stun and positioning skill.

I'd throw Malphite in there too for a great initiating skill.

Brother Oni

2010-05-08, 09:31 AM

Is anybody planning to turn up tonight?

Shades of Gray

2010-05-08, 09:46 AM

Depends if you are on the European or American servers. I will be on tonight, the question is if we will be able to team up.

In other news, I have Katarina now. She is amazing, and I have a pretty solid build down. The only thing I need to worry about now is survivability. I went 17-5-22 last match.

Brother Oni

2010-05-08, 09:52 AM

The regular GITP meet is 4pm EST on the US servers.

Not enough of us play on the EU servers to make a meet there viable. :smallfrown:

Shades of Gray

2010-05-08, 11:31 AM

I'll be on at that time. Username is PierreAbelard, so remember to add me.

Rama

2010-05-08, 11:50 AM

I'll try t make it, but don't think I'll be able to this week.

Silverraptor

2010-05-08, 12:05 PM

Can anyone post a good build for Garen for me to use?:smallsmile:

Shades of Gray

2010-05-08, 12:22 PM

From what I've seen, go for Brutalizer and a good pair of boots first.

From there, it all depends on if you are tanking or DPSing.

lord_khaine

2010-05-08, 01:18 PM

I though Jaxx was a pretty good tank, but it might just be because i play on a lower ranking i guess?

Silverraptor

2010-05-08, 01:44 PM

I can't help but notice that my name is not on the list of players.:smallfrown:

Brother Oni

2010-05-08, 01:47 PM

I though Jaxx was a pretty good tank, but it might just be because i play on a lower ranking i guess?

Jax isn't really a tank, it just seems that way with a ninja tabi, his abilities and a full set of dodge runes.
One good tip is to engage people in the middle of creeps, as all those hits are likely to trigger a dodge proc, making him unhittable without a Sword of the Divine or spells.

Room is up, name is GITP, in case anybody wants to start early.

Poison_Fish

2010-05-08, 02:51 PM

Jax isn't really a tank, it just seems that way with a ninja tabi, his abilities and a full set of dodge runes.
One good tip is to engage people in the middle of creeps, as all those hits are likely to trigger a dodge proc, making him unhittable without a Sword of the Divine or spells.

Room is up, name is GITP, in case anybody wants to start early.

Jax is pure DPS with survivability. So he can semi-tank because of his passive.

lord_khaine

2010-05-08, 03:12 PM

In that case, what is the definition of a Tank, if it isnt the ability to attract attention, and then survive it?

Shades of Gray

2010-05-08, 03:24 PM

The US meetup is currently happening. Room name is GITP. Just a reminder.

Thrawn183

2010-05-08, 03:47 PM

In that case, what is the definition of a Tank, if it isnt the ability to attract attention, and then survive it?

The ability to survive even if you aren't necessarily in your element. Jax survives through massive damage combined with lifesteal. He doesn't have much armor though, nor magic resist. This means that if he gets disabled he goes down surprisingly quickly.

Poison_Fish

2010-05-08, 04:32 PM

The ability to survive even if you aren't necessarily in your element. Jax survives through massive damage combined with lifesteal. He doesn't have much armor though, nor magic resist. This means that if he gets disabled he goes down surprisingly quickly.

To attract attention, survive it, to initiate, and to run interference for your DPS to kill squishy's. Granted, initiators are a little different from straight up tanks (Such as blitz).

Silverraptor

2010-05-08, 05:18 PM

Is the game still going on? I'd like to join.:smallsmile:

Shades of Gray

2010-05-08, 10:18 PM

I propose that we change the meetup to Friday nights, as I think more people would be on. Though I'm open to other suggestions.

Silverraptor

2010-05-09, 12:32 AM

Or maybe having it more frequently and several times a day if managable.

toasty

2010-05-09, 05:45 AM

Wow that was a long hiatus from this website. Did me a lot of good too I think.

Anyways, so I've been playing LoL on and off for a while now. From time to time I get really frustrated with how bad my lag can be (if so much as one person (of the 7...) who share my internet so much as start a download, a youtube or radio music stream I get lag. I can't play with lag. So basically I don't play that much. Not that i have a lot of time anyways with school... hopefully this summer will provide me great internet speed as I will be moving back to the US Permanently and have access to all that wonderful High Speed goodness that my family has there. :smallbiggrin:

So now, basically I've been playing Sivir these past few days and I've done pretty good with her. I'm kinda at a loss what to build past Stark's Fervor... I've condsidered, but haven't tried, the following build:

1 Magi Pendant + 2 HP potions
Boots, Dagger, Assault Boots
Life Steal, Belt Item thingie (I'm terrible with names...)
That Cup that gives more mana for the mana you're missing... (actually I'm considering nixing this item altogether, you don't seem to need mana beyond the first few minutes)
Sword of the Occult (?)
Stark's Fervor
... other stuff... I need suggestions.

And I've never tried Mundo, dunno why, I really should probably.

Brother Oni

2010-05-09, 05:56 AM

Given how many people turn up on Saturdays, I see no reason why not to move it to Friday.

However, what time on Friday? Since I assume people are still going to be at school/work until about 5-6pm in the evening EST, that would put it between 10-11pm GMT or 11-midnight European time.

1 Magi Pendant + 2 HP potions
Boots, Dagger, Assault Boots
Life Steal, Belt Item thingie (I'm terrible with names...)
That Cup that gives more mana for the mana you're missing... (actually I'm considering nixing this item altogether, you don't seem to need mana beyond the first few minutes)
Sword of the Occult (?)
Stark's Fervor
... other stuff... I need suggestions.

It's a bit late to be getting stacking items like Sword of the Occult, so I suggest getting a BFS instead and using the Vampiric Sceptre to build into a Bloodthirster rather than Stark's Fervor.

Other than that, just stack attack damage and attack speed, so Last Whisper, Wit's End, Infinity Edge, etc.

toasty

2010-05-09, 07:30 AM

That's 4am for me... wow... a bit too early for Saturday morning. :smallbiggrin:

Oh well, I'm in the US in 4 weeks... I can survive till then.

edit: I get Stark's Fervor for the supportyness, as I tend to prefer playing Support-oriented characters (Favorite DotA heroes being Rhasta and Death Knight), but I can try the Bloodthirster...

In theory, would it be possible to quickly grab the sword of the occult early game? Sivir's farm is amazing so its not a money issue, its more of a when rather than a if.

Brother Oni

2010-05-09, 12:38 PM

edit: I get Stark's Fervor for the supportyness, as I tend to prefer playing Support-oriented characters (Favorite DotA heroes being Rhasta and Death Knight), but I can try the Bloodthirster...

In theory, would it be possible to quickly grab the sword of the occult early game? Sivir's farm is amazing so its not a money issue, its more of a when rather than a if.

If you're doing well and are likely to get champion kills, then go for the occult early. I suggested Bloodthirster as it gets stacks based on minion kills, which makes it amazing for Sivir.

I'm personally not a fan of stacking items as I tend to die a lot.

Moklok

2010-05-09, 03:33 PM

Poison_Fish

2010-05-09, 04:29 PM

You should also consider situational items. Blood razor is great if they have a healthy team, guardian angel is a good idea as well, especially if your pushing to win.

Brother Oni

2010-05-09, 06:23 PM

I've always been a fan of odd or uncommon characters, so I've decided to give Kayle a try.

It seems to be that if you build her as a tank, she ends up substandard to a proper tank, not to mention she's got a pitiful damage output and she farms poorly to get anything decent.

I build her as AP and she's just too squishy, plus she doesn't have the damage output to match proper dps characters.

I've been thinking about some sort of hybrid build:

Meki pendent -> Fiendish Codex
Boots -> Merc treads/Ninja Tabi
Dagger -> Stinger -> Nashor's Tooth

This should give me enough AP and cooldown to make people want to focus me, at which point, I start getting defence items, like Warmogs/Frozen Heart/Thornmail.

Alternatively, there's this build:

Meki pendent ->Chalice
Boots -> Merc treads/Ninja Tabi
Chain Vest -> Glacial Shroud

I then go get a Rod of Ages/Archangel's staff to give me the AP.
However the guides suggest a Lichbane would be a better choice. I'm also curious as to whether a rageblade would be decent item as well.

Suggestions or comments?

toasty

2010-05-10, 01:40 AM

Meki+ 2 pots is standard start with Sivir, transform is as fast as possible into Chalice, but dont use Recall+ teleport just for that. Usually you can wait till around 850g before recall. Even if you still have good hp/mana, getting Chalice boosts your farming speed by ALOT so its worth it. Boots, its probably a better idea to get Ninja Tabi or Mercury Threads, as you get quite alot of attack speed from Ult and Starks. Then rush for starks, and after that, Aegis would probably be your best bet in terms of support items. Bloodthirster or Last Whisper are probably your best bet as last items, but depending on who your fighting those might change.

Generally I stay in a lane till I have to go back, even if I have my TP up. Every second in the lane in the first few minutes counts because of XP. Usually around levels 7-8 I can leave the lane and start pushing elsewhere. That or solo push mid tower, depending on how much the enemy is moving around. I've noticed that the ganking phase is not near as predominant as it should be, with the lanning phase lasting till pretty much the game is already over.

So basicly:

-Meki +2 pots
-Meki--->Chalice + boots lvl1
-Boots lvl1---->Threads or Tabi depending on need
-Rush for Starks(Vampiric Scepter and Recurve bow obviously have priority over recipe or rejuv bead)
-Aegis
-Bloodthirster(or Last Whisper)
-Last Whisper(or Bloodthirster)

This setup is obviously not perfect as you will barely have over 2k HP (probably around 2.2k) but its a good start IMO.

The key to playing a DPS hero with lifesteal is that you don't worry so much about how much health you have but how fast you can farm your health back. :smallwink:

That seems like a solid build, after a fashion. Does Stark's and Bloodthirster's lifesteal stack? Because Lifesteal doesn't stack in DotA.

Milskidasith

2010-05-10, 02:43 AM

Generally I stay in a lane till I have to go back, even if I have my TP up. Every second in the lane in the first few minutes counts because of XP. Usually around levels 7-8 I can leave the lane and start pushing elsewhere. That or solo push mid tower, depending on how much the enemy is moving around. I've noticed that the ganking phase is not near as predominant as it should be, with the lanning phase lasting till pretty much the game is already over.

The key to playing a DPS hero with lifesteal is that you don't worry so much about how much health you have but how fast you can farm your health back. :smallwink:

That seems like a solid build, after a fashion. Does Stark's and Bloodthirster's lifesteal stack? Because Lifesteal doesn't stack in DotA.

Lifesteal stacks in LoL. EDIT: Also, Sivir is not a hard carry, she's a support/pusher with decent-ish damage. Especially if you rush Starks, she won't be doing relevant damage on her own in any situation, unless you manage to massively outfarm your opponent so they can't even afford boots + a recurve/BFS and you have a level on them.

Not that starks is a bad item, it's just very cost inefficient without people around to benefit from it. Sivir is a great choice for it as well, she's just not a soloer (well, solo laner, yes, solo fighter, hell no.)

Brother Oni

2010-05-10, 02:45 AM

I've noticed that the ganking phase is not near as predominant as it should be, with the lanning phase lasting till pretty much the game is already over.

Depends very much on your team and champion setup. I've had games devolve into ganking by the time the solo mids hit level 6.

The key to playing a DPS hero with lifesteal is that you don't worry so much about how much health you have but how fast you can farm your health back. :smallwink:

That seems like a solid build, after a fashion. Does Stark's and Bloodthirster's lifesteal stack? Because Lifesteal doesn't stack in DotA.

It's nice to have as big a buffer as possible, otherwise a stun or a simple nuke/focus fire will kill you outright without a chance for you to gain the life back.

Lifesteal stacks as far as I can tell - I've know Udyr's Turtle stance and Vampiric Sceptre does, but I'm not 100% sure on auras and items.

Edit: Ninja'ed.

Milskidasith

2010-05-10, 02:47 AM

Standard issue meme based tagline added to the thread title.

EDIT: Nevermind, it only edited the first post. Going to fix that...

EDIT X2: And it seems I can't.

Brother Oni

2010-05-10, 04:03 AM

Oh well, only another 29 pages to go then. :smalltongue:

toasty

2010-05-10, 05:45 AM

Then we must post more!

Also: I realize Sivir is not a hard carry. If she was a hard carry then I wouldn't play her as I'm not a carry guy, I'm a support guy. At least, generally...

Thanks for the advice. :)

Moklok

2010-05-10, 12:48 PM

Generally I stay in a lane till I have to go back, even if I have my TP up. Every second in the lane in the first few minutes counts because of XP. Usually around levels 7-8 I can leave the lane and start pushing elsewhere. That or solo push mid tower, depending on how much the enemy is moving around. I've noticed that the ganking phase is not near as predominant as it should be, with the lanning phase lasting till pretty much the game is already over.

The key to playing a DPS hero with lifesteal is that you don't worry so much about how much health you have but how fast you can farm your health back. :smallwink:

That seems like a solid build, after a fashion. Does Stark's and Bloodthirster's lifesteal stack? Because Lifesteal doesn't stack in DotA.

Staying in a lane as long as you can is usually better, but in Sivir's case it isnt IMO. Chalice allows you to have Ricrochet on pretty much 100% of the time, and allows you to spam Boomerang alot more. Those 2 spells together makes pushing a tower early in the game very easy, and might push the other hero off the lane much faster then if you didnt have the Chalice.

Also, Sivir doesnt really rely on heavy damage+Lifesteal to survive. Lifesteal only works on the first hit and not on any bounce, so the vast majority of her damage(ricrochet+boomerang) doesnt even benefit from lifesteal. The reason you go for Starks is for the support aspect of it, and Bloodthirster just works well to add dmg to Sivir since she farms so well. The lifesteal is just a bonus.

Astrella

2010-05-10, 02:32 PM

http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=109717

Apparently Riot is going to publish Lol directly in Europe now...
Hope this doesn't mean different regions can't play together.

Dallas-Dakota

2010-05-10, 02:54 PM

So any advice for Cho?

Played him twice and got something like 8/1/8 and 8/4/8.

In 3 vs 3.

Currently getting boots, Impaler and Sunfires....

Thrawn183

2010-05-10, 03:42 PM

Well, if you're going with Impaler, try and get a bit more hp than sunfire?

Poison_Fish

2010-05-10, 05:12 PM

So any advice for Cho?

Played him twice and got something like 8/1/8 and 8/4/8.

In 3 vs 3.

Currently getting boots, Impaler and Sunfires....

Very much this (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=28942).

Not necessarily safe for work.

Edit: and by that I mean, prepare for the guide to insult you, like all the things Condon does.

Further Edit: This is a fun guide. That being said, MF'ing cho's don't work all to well solo mid against say... a sivir. I've fought many MF'ing cho's in my time, and I have been one myself. Mid is not a place for MF'ing cho.

Brother Oni

2010-05-10, 06:10 PM

Cho'gath doesn't do too well in TT, especially with the MFing Cho build. Sure you're almost impossible to kill, so the enemy ignore you as you have poor damage output without feast, ganks your other two team mates, allowing them to kill you at their leisure.

If you're getting impaler on 5v5, then you need Warmogs, both for extra hp and more damage.

In 3v3, you could get away with going for Rod of Ages instead, then impaler.

Force of Nature is nice to have, as each regen tick off that heals you for more due to your high max health.

The only issue is farming up enough gold on TT in time.

Astrella

2010-05-10, 06:14 PM

Played a few games as AP Ezreal on Twisted Treeline, it's surprisingly effective, with the only disadvantage being that you're unable to heal yourself with W.

Poison_Fish

2010-05-10, 06:31 PM

Aye, MFing cho works much better in 5's then in 3's, as cho himself isn't that great in 3's (compared to Mundo, Sion, and others who are much more scary at level 1).

Silverraptor

2010-05-11, 09:23 AM

Who are good characters for TT?:smallconfused:

toasty

2010-05-11, 09:26 AM

Who are good characters for TT?:smallconfused:

I'm assuming the 3 ninjas, in theory, should make a good team, now that they are all up (once the patch goes through):smalltongue:

I play warwick on 3v3. Generally speaking, support heroes are less powerful, since there is a less of a team to support. Also, because the laning phase can just about be ignored, heroes that focus on killing other heroes tend to be good... so assassins?

Moklok

2010-05-11, 12:32 PM

Who are good characters for TT?:smallconfused:

Most heroes with a very strong early game are very dangerous in TT. Mundo, Janna, Gragas, Zilean are pretty good examples. TT matches dont last as long as 5v5, so the early game is more important in TT, also ganks happen alot more on TT even at lvl 1-2, so you have to be able to defend yourself very early on. So chars that need to farm alot or scale very well into endgame should be avoided.

Poison_Fish

2010-05-11, 01:17 PM

Most heroes with a very strong early game are very dangerous in TT. Mundo, Janna, Gragas, Zilean are pretty good examples. TT matches dont last as long as 5v5, so the early game is more important in TT, also ganks happen alot more on TT even at lvl 1-2, so you have to be able to defend yourself very early on. So chars that need to farm alot or scale very well into endgame should be avoided.

The game starts with the battle pretty much over lizard at upper levels (or dragon). It then breaks down into semi-lanning and constant ganking.

Shen is great for TT (and commonly banned in tournaments) as his dash can get him through walls as well as being able to soak up more burst with feint and get more milage out of his healing with vorpal hits. Mundo becomes the master of the cleaver, Sion's solid single target stun helps a lot to. Janna has more ways of messing with someone along with providing a quick boost in survivability. I actually kind of like Kayle in TT (slightly better), as that ult is dangerous, she has a spam able slow that can hit for decent, and her heal makes others move faster. Poppy also works better as she's more single target burst and she has more things to smash people into, never mind the fact that charge is still super bugged.

Dallas-Dakota

2010-05-11, 04:24 PM

bloodlover

2010-05-11, 04:25 PM

Any n00bs around that want to play with another n00b? :biggrin:

Astrella

2010-05-11, 04:42 PM

Gah, it just won't start up.
I've tried every possible way of starting up the way.

But it just sounds like it's loading, and then...nothing.
I don't want this to be the 4th time to reinstall the game...

Be sure to remove the folders and install something called Pando something as well. (You can find more information on the support section of the site for that.)

How won't it start up? Launcher not working? Game not starting after clicking play? (Troubles like this usually happen with new patches...)

Brother Oni

2010-05-11, 04:53 PM

Don't forget to actually kill the old instances before trying to start up again. Task Manager and End Process is required.

Is your firewall interfering?

toasty

2010-05-11, 08:22 PM

Shen is great for TT (and commonly banned in tournaments)

How do they ban in tourements? Spoken agreements not to use heroes?

Poison_Fish

2010-05-11, 11:10 PM

At this point, spoken agreements in a format similar to dota's but that is not currently available in the client.

toasty

2010-05-12, 01:14 AM

ahh okay.

So thoughts on the new patch? I haven't played any yet, but I have a feeling that the new hero is gonna be somewhat imba. Finally having all three ninjas is awesome though.

Dallas-Dakota

2010-05-12, 04:10 AM

Be sure to remove the folders and install something called Pando something as well. (You can find more information on the support section of the site for that.)

How won't it start up? Launcher not working? Game not starting after clicking play? (Troubles like this usually happen with new patches...)
Yes, I have that Pando something installed.

I double click the icon. Etc. etc. Anyway of clicking the start up icon.
It just sounds like it's gonna start up for 2 sec and then does nothing.

Don't forget to actually kill the old instances before trying to start up again. Task Manager and End Process is required.

Is your firewall interfering?
Been there, done that, will try again.

Been there, done that, will try again.

Thenks people. Let's hope it works.

Brother Oni

2010-05-12, 06:55 AM

So thoughts on the new patch? I haven't played any yet, but I have a feeling that the new hero is gonna be somewhat imba. Finally having all three ninjas is awesome though.

I really like the look of Akali (she reminds me of a Mantis clan samurai from Lot5R). Apparently she's got good burst damage, but very squishy.

I've only played one game where I was laning with her and I can attest to her burst damage and squishyness, although the player using her didn't have much experience with melee champions. Her smoke bomb ability doesn't seem to be as good as it initially appears - that 1 second recloak is more than enough time for enemy champions to hit you with an ability (especially somebody like Ryze).

I don't think she's quite as imba as Garen is, but it's still early days. I'm still really wishing for a slight nerf to his Demacian Justice move. :smallsigh:

Any n00bs around that want to play with another n00b? :biggrin:

If you list your LoL summoner name along with whatever server you play on, we can add you and invite you to games.

Silverraptor

2010-05-12, 09:18 AM

How does one compete in tournaments?

And in case you guys missed me, my summoner name is Silverraptor and I'm in the U.S. Servers.

Joran

2010-05-12, 09:23 AM

How does one compete in tournaments?

There's only been one sanctioned tournament held by Riot. I believe there are some non-official group run tournaments out there, but I'm not sure where you would go to sign up for those.

Season 1 is supposed to start sometime in the summer. They've already announced that Draft Pick will be the format for that, but it won't be available for Normal (Casual) Games.

toasty

2010-05-12, 09:45 AM

I just played a game as Garren. I love this new hero. :smallbiggrin:

As soon as I get some RP (which I will once summer starts) i will buy him. :smallcool:

Also, what runes work best for Nunu, Sivir and Warwick, who right now are my mains... i'm thinking of getting runes now that i'm almost level 20...

Astrella

2010-05-12, 10:53 AM

Yes, I have that Pando something installed.

I double click the icon. Etc. etc. Anyway of clicking the start up icon.
It just sounds like it's gonna start up for 2 sec and then does nothing.

Been there, done that, will try again.

Been there, done that, will try again.

Thenks people. Let's hope it works.

Ah, apologies. I meant, be sure to uninstall Pando as well when you uninstall Lol.

Dallas-Dakota

2010-05-12, 12:38 PM

Toasty: YES.
RUnes are MOST usefull.

Well Nunu and WW can differ quite much, same with Sivir.

I'd definetely go for some Armor Pens with WW.

Poison_Fish

2010-05-12, 12:52 PM

I really like the look of Akali (she reminds me of a Mantis clan samurai from Lot5R). Apparently she's got good burst damage, but very squishy.

I've only played one game where I was laning with her and I can attest to her burst damage and squishyness, although the player using her didn't have much experience with melee champions. Her smoke bomb ability doesn't seem to be as good as it initially appears - that 1 second recloak is more than enough time for enemy champions to hit you with an ability (especially somebody like Ryze).

I don't think she's quite as imba as Garen is, but it's still early days. I'm still really wishing for a slight nerf to his Demacian Justice move. :smallsigh:

If you list your LoL summoner name along with whatever server you play on, we can add you and invite you to games.

My friend and I were lanning her + Garen. Granted I go tank garen, because your spin actually works fairly well to open up with and have people waste time on you. DPS Garen, while most likely better, is to squishy for my tastes these days. Also people can chase you all day as garen, especially if you have a force of nature and you use your Q to run away while regenerating most of your health.

Right now tournaments are held by different sites that are unofficial ones besides the Riot 3 v 3 one. They are done with agreements ahead of times with drafting and then played through in a practice game.

To enter into one you need a team.

Edit: In terms of runes, armor pen tends to be the most solid for physical damage. Nunu is typically AP nunu, so I'd assume magic pen. I like having yellow dodge and blue cool down myself with flat health quints, and that can work well for sivir. I have yet to actually play warwick though, so I don't have that much insight, save that those could work well additionally.

Shades of Gray

2010-05-12, 06:24 PM

Just got some RP and bought the Collector's Pack, along with Pantheon and his skins. In addition, I have build updates!

I notice that I play my heroes for burst damage... Weird.

Katarina (Attack Burst Damage build.)

1) Doran's Shield
2) Boots of Speed-->Ninja Tabi or Merc's Treads
3) BFS (I may go Blade of the Occult first if I am doing well)
4) Another BFS!
5) Upgrade the Sword to the Bloodthirster
6) Do another Bloodthirster, unless I feel Youmu's Ghostblade is necessary.
7) Finish the last Bloodthirster.
8) Most matches are over, so the last slot is whatever is needed at that time.

Gragas (AP Burst Damage)

1) Sapphire Crystal
2) Boots of Speed--> Sorcerer's Shoes
3) Blasting Wands
4) Finish Rod of Ages
5) Go for Tear of the Goddess
5) Work on/Finish Void Staff
6) Finish Archangel's Staff
7) Deathfire Grasp/Banshee Veil/Guardian Angel/Thornmail depending on how endangered I am.
8) Zhonya's ring for the capstone.

Pantheon (Attack Burst Damage Build)
1) Long Sword--> Phage
2) Ninja Tabi, unless Merc's is more needed.
3) Youmu's Ghostblade/Blade of the Occult if I am doing well.
4) Ghostblade if not taken. Otherwise Last Whisper
5) Fill in the rest with Bloodthirsters, unless any defensive item is really needed at that moment.
6) Upgrade Phage to Frozen Mallet or Trinity Force (If I have tons of cash).

Brother Oni

2010-05-12, 07:07 PM

Katarina (Attack Burst Damage build.)

1) Doran's Shield
2) Boots of Speed-->Ninja Tabi or Merc's Treads
3) BFS (I may go Blade of the Occult first if I am doing well)
4) Another BFS!
5) Upgrade the Sword to the Bloodthirster
6) Do another Bloodthirster, unless I feel Youmu's Ghostblade is necessary.
7) Finish the last Bloodthirster.
8) Most matches are over, so the last slot is whatever is needed at that time.

While the Doran's shield is nice, I find all the Doran's gear are a bit of a trap as they don't build into anything else. May I suggest starting with an Amplifying Tome, to build into a Rylai's Sceptre at a later point so you get a nice chunk of health, a slow on all your abilities and an extra 60 damage to your shunpo?

If you must get a Doran's item, how about Doran's blade instead? It gives you some health, some damage and lifesteal, and the 4% lifesteal will be better than 8 armour mid to late game.

Shades of Gray

2010-05-12, 07:35 PM

Re:Shield vs Rylai's) The Shield gives me enough survivability early on. As for Rylai's, I never use it. I already have Exhaust and Flash on her, so the enemy getting away is never an issue. I get more kills with Shunpo/Bouncing Blade than I do with Death Lotus, all truth told (Granted, this might be because they always run out of the Lotus due to my lack of Rylai's)

If I need another slot for things, I'll just sell the shield.

Re:Shield vs Blade) The Shield is better early on, and that 4% lifesteal isn't going to do much (Especially with the large Lifesteal that comes from the two Bloodthirsters). I usually end up selling the Doran's item at some point to help afford my collection of BFS's anyway.

60 damage on my Shunpo really doesn't matter, as it is more of a positioning tool than anything. That being said, I might try Rylai's sometime soon on Kat, but for now this build seems to be working just fine without it.

Moklok

2010-05-12, 11:21 PM

Kat's damage output in early levels is pretty laughable, even a Doran's blade cant change that. The shield at least gives you a bit more durability so you can farm longer in the lane.

toasty

2010-05-13, 03:58 AM

Edit: In terms of runes, armor pen tends to be the most solid for physical damage. Nunu is typically AP nunu, so I'd assume magic pen. I like having yellow dodge and blue cool down myself with flat health quints, and that can work well for sivir. I have yet to actually play warwick though, so I don't have that much insight, save that those could work well additionally.

Well, my Warwick build generally goes Assault Boots and then Straight to the Blackcleaver, followed by Bloodthirster. I find that you dont actually need much of a lifesteal, unless you are doing a lot of neutrals (and since I play him 3v3 I tend to just gank). Generally speaking Warwick has enough damage and attack speed, so I guess Armor Penetration would make sense.

AP is a must for Nunu, AP, CD reduction and probably Health.

Basically, I'm thinking I'll grab 3 Flat Health Quints ASAP and then I'll build some Dodge Runes... dodge probably helps no matter who I'm playing, and seeing as I like Sivir a lot... it'll help.

Heck, getting AP runes helps everyone, Sivir not to much (since only her Q gets effected by AP) and Warwick even less I guess, but its better than nothing.

Silverraptor

2010-05-13, 09:21 AM

While the Doran's shield is nice, I find all the Doran's gear are a bit of a trap as they don't build into anything else. May I suggest starting with an Amplifying Tome, to build into a Rylai's Sceptre at a later point so you get a nice chunk of health, a slow on all your abilities and an extra 60 damage to your shunpo?

If you must get a Doran's item, how about Doran's blade instead? It gives you some health, some damage and lifesteal, and the 4% lifesteal will be better than 8 armour mid to late game.

Actually, I view the Doran gear as a buff starter item. Then later in the game, all you have to do is sell it when you need a free slot and put something better in. Simple as that.

Joran

2010-05-13, 10:39 AM

Actually, I view the Doran gear as a buff starter item. Then later in the game, all you have to do is sell it when you need a free slot and put something better in. Simple as that.

Doran's items are nice for heroes that can farm well and have low starting HP. That extra bit of health allows you to survive a gank and deny the enemy money as well as allowing you to lane longer and make money. It's situational, but definitely helpful.

Seeing a Champion at level 1 with 4 pips of health makes me happy; it means we're going to get a first blood early.

Brother Oni

2010-05-13, 11:39 AM

Seeing a Champion at level 1 with 4 pips of health makes me happy; it means we're going to get a first blood early.

I can't find a definitive reference for this, so I only have empirical observation that 1 pip = 100 health?

4 pips would indicate the champion has less than 400 health or less than 500?

Joran

2010-05-13, 11:42 AM

I can't find a definitive reference for this, so I only have empirical observation that 1 pip = 100 health?

4 pips would indicate the champion has less than 400 health or less than 500?

Less than 500.

KBF

2010-05-13, 02:32 PM

Shades of Gray

2010-05-13, 02:35 PM

Valairn

2010-05-13, 02:50 PM

Let me interrupt.

I love my bearplane.

I am sad they clipped his wings :(.

BEARPLANE! :tongue:

Joran

2010-05-13, 03:30 PM

I just started LoL, so I figure I should stop by here and say hi. So far from just playing practice games with human players it's been kinda tough, but playing Tristana the gunner is way more fun than it probably should be. Is there anything I should know going into this, and do you guys have some beginner games I could play in? My summoner name is "ChHa KBF".

"I wanna shoot something!"

Okay, let's see if I can type a quick primer. The game basically boils down into two phases: Laning and Pushing. I assume you're playing on Summoner's Rift (the 5v5 map). I also assume you don't know much about the game.

Laning

Laning is the beginning phase. This is the phase where you stick in your assigned lane and basically farm for experience and gold. Generally, the lane assignments are two in the top lane, one in the middle lane, and two in the bottom lane. Occasionally, someone will instead start in the jungle with neutral creeps and thus one of the double lanes will be a solo lane as well. Middle generally goes to someone that can benefit from the extra experience and gold and is usually a ranged character.

Key points here when you're first starting out:

Play conservative: The worst thing you can do is die in the laning phase. It gives the opponents money and experience and puts you further behind. Don't hesitate to port back to base if you're very low and don't have a healing pot. If someone's MIA and you think they might be coming for you, backup behind the river mouth and closer to your turret.
Call out MIAs: If you notice someone missing in their assigned lane, please announce it. This will alert everyone else that someone is missing and to be prepared for a gank. Usually it's in the format like "bot MIA" or "top MIA", although champion callouts are more useful.
Don't Tower Dive: Towers do a lot of damage early game and will target you if you deal damage to an opponent in its range. If you're starting out, it's better not to tower dive (go into tower range to try to kill an enemy) and risk getting killed instead. You'll eventually learn how to minimize your damage when doing so, but first starting out, don't do it.

Jungling

Jungling is the process of starting in the jungle (outside of a lane) and leveling up by killing the neutral creeps. It takes a bit of practice and the right champions (and sometimes the right runes/masteries) to do properly, so it's mostly for advanced players.

There are four "bosses" in the jungle, which yield very nice bonuses. Even if you aren't jungling, it's useful to jump in and grab these buffs whenever possible.

There are four bosses: Lizard, Golem, Dragon, and Baron: Lizard and Golem buff can be stolen if you kill someone on the opposing team with them.

Lizard: Two, one on each side: Killing it grants you a DoT on your physical attack and slows the enemy by 10%. It's symbolized by the red swirling symbols. Usually goes on a physical damage person.

Golem: Two, one on each side: Killing it grants you increased mana regeneration and reduces cooldowns by 25%. It's symbolized by the blue swirling symbols. Usually goes on a caster or support.

Dragon: One, near the bottom: Killing it grants a global gold buff for your team.

Baron: One, near the top: Killing it grants a global damage buff to your team.

So, it's possible if we're pushing well to jungle and kill the opposing team's Lizard and Golem and capture both buffs.

Pushing/Team Fights

At around level 6-10, you'll move into this phase, where each team has accrued enough gold and experience and can start pushing towers. Teams will normally be grouped up into 5 man gank squads and there will be team fights. The task here is to destroy towers, then inhibitors, then finally the Nexus.

Don't travel alone: Later on, you'll be able to tell when you can safely farm a creep wave, but for now, stay in a group; there's roving gank squads around during this phase.
Stay off the radar: You want the jump on the opposing team so stay off the radar. That means don't go into the lanes near enemy creeps.
When Pushing Keep Track Of Who's Up: Once you win a team fight, you'll push towers or grab buffs. Keep hitting tab to see when the enemy respawns. Once they do, back up immediately unless your team is in good health and numbers shape.

P.S. There's a learning curve and you will die a lot early on, but it gets better... honest.

Brother Oni

2010-05-13, 03:50 PM

Just Queue up for a standard match, you will get put up against those of your rank. The more you play, the higher your rank will get. Most of us here are too high level to play along with you on even terms.

You'd be surprised. Given the quality of players I've had on my team in the last three games, I'm guessing a lot of account selling is going on. :smallmad:

Silverraptor

2010-05-13, 05:53 PM

You'd be surprised. Given the quality of players I've had on my team in the last three games, I'm guessing a lot of account selling is going on. :smallmad:

That's so stupid. Who would pay to get an account they could get for free? I mean, sure, they could get the extra skins. But they could do it with their own account.

Brother Oni

2010-05-13, 06:07 PM

That's so stupid. Who would pay to get an account they could get for free? I mean, sure, they could get the extra skins. But they could do it with their own account.

Some people can't be bothered to level up to 30 and buy runes or unlock champions the hard way, so they buy an account that's already been levelled up.
You tend to see this more in MMOs, but I guess where there's a demand, there's always be a supply.

Silverraptor

2010-05-13, 07:51 PM

Ya, but they are horribly unskilled.:smallyuk:

Anyways, anyone up for a quick team game with me?:smallsmile:

Moklok

2010-05-13, 11:09 PM

Level 30 is pretty easy to reach though....And levels/runes barely make a difference. The only really good runes are Flat Health Quints, Crit Dmg% Marks and Dodge runes, all the other ones are nice to have but not really game changers IMO. The only big milestones to reach are 12 for Flash and 20 for T3 runes, and those are achieved ridiculously fast.

Milskidasith

2010-05-13, 11:32 PM

Moklok

2010-05-14, 01:40 AM

Runes and masteries account for about 2k gold worth of stuff. They are fairly relevant.

My T3 tank runes give me 5.95% CD reduc, 8 armor, 97 flat HP and another 100hp at lvl 18 approx. When you go down the defence tree you get a bonus 60hp, ramage reduction by 4% and 4% dodge, 5% exp bonus and a few other goodies that arent that relevant. So an item that gives:

-160hp(or 260 at lvl 18)
-5-6% CD reduc(not sure how its calculated)
-8 armor
-4% dodge
-4% damage reduction
-5% exp bonus

Thats worth 2k? Other then the fact that EXP bonus isnt found on any other item, that item would be worth between 1k and 1.5k(and that would be pushing it). If it wasnt for the xp Bonus I would probably even buy a HoG over it, especially if it was 2k.

Milskidasith

2010-05-14, 01:43 AM

My T3 tank runes give me 5.95% CD reduc, 8 armor, 97 flat HP and another 100hp at lvl 18 approx. When you go down the defence tree you get a bonus 60hp, ramage reduction by 4% and 4% dodge, 5% exp bonus and a few other goodies that arent that relevant. So an item that gives:

-160hp(or 260 at lvl 18)
-5-6% CD reduc(not sure how its calculated)
-8 armor
-4% dodge
-4% damage reduction
-5% exp bonus

Thats worth 2k? Other then the fact that EXP bonus isnt found on any other item, that item would be worth between 1k and 1.5k(and that would be pushing it). If it wasnt for the xp Bonus I would probably even buy a HoG over it, especially if it was 2k.

Well, for one thing, you clearly aren't adding in all the bonuses. I can get everything you listed from masteries alone and a single flat HP quint with another scaling HP quint, roughly. So if about half of it is worth 1-1.5k, yeah, it's worth 2k to 2.5k to get runes + masteries (and a small amount of armor runes). Plus, if all you have are such defensive runes, you are buying runes that don't match the color (I.E. blues are magic, reds physical, yellow tankish).

EDIT: Also, scaling HP is terribad and you should never use it.

Moklok

2010-05-14, 02:07 AM

Well, for one thing, you clearly aren't adding in all the bonuses. I can get everything you listed from masteries alone and a single flat HP quint with another scaling HP quint, roughly. So if about half of it is worth 1-1.5k, yeah, it's worth 2k to 2.5k to get runes + masteries (and a small amount of armor runes). Plus, if all you have are such defensive runes, you are buying runes that don't match the color (I.E. blues are magic, reds physical, yellow tankish).

EDIT: Also, scaling HP is terribad and you should never use it.

masteries alone give 60 HP. You cannot go higher. Tier 3 Quints Flat HP give a total of 97 HP when you have 3. HP/level yellow runes give approx 100 hp total(I cannot check atm server are down, but who counts +/- 30 hp at lvl 18). Marks are terrible for most tanks, I chose armor as there wasnt any other stat that interested me, thats 8 armor. Flat CD reduc glyphs( the 820 IP ones) are 5.85% total (those glyphs costs 7400 IP total alone btw).

I used full T3 rune page numbers. What numbers are you using? Cause I sure as hell would like to get twice these numbers like you do.

Milskidasith

2010-05-14, 02:34 AM

masteries alone give 60 HP. You cannot go higher. Tier 3 Quints Flat HP give a total of 97 HP when you have 3. HP/level yellow runes give approx 100 hp total(I cannot check atm server are down, but who counts +/- 30 hp at lvl 18). Marks are terrible for most tanks, I chose armor as there wasnt any other stat that interested me, thats 8 armor. Flat CD reduc glyphs( the 820 IP ones) are 5.85% total (those glyphs costs 7400 IP total alone btw).

I used full T3 rune page numbers. What numbers are you using? Cause I sure as hell would like to get twice these numbers like you do.

http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/rune-page-planner#&rune=288:9-266:3-303:9-300:9

This gives you a much better view of what runes can *actually* do. By replacing the (pointless) T3 quints/seals of per level HP (which is terrible at level 1, when this matters the most) with dodge, you get huge benefits. Plus, yellow dodge happens to be one of the best runes in terms of power compared to quints; yellow HPs are good but not great, but yellow dodges are a whopping 50% of the power of a quint. Marks of armor pen are because a lot of tanks nowadays deal physical damage and it makes last hitting easier; attack speed could also be used, especially with off tanks that hit hard like Mundo. Kept the CDR in as well.

http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/mastery-tree-planner#&tree1=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree2=0-3-0-3-0-4-2-1-3-4-0-0-0-1&tree3=0-1-3-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

This gets you 6 armor, 6 magic armor, 2% extra dodge, a movespeed bonus on dodge, makes you essentially immune to minion attacks, +60 more HP, and the 4% damage reduction, which honestly isn't all that (it's basically 4 armor/MR, but it applies to Feast.), and you have +1.66666 Mana/5 with 6% increased regen and a 5% experience increase.

Counting the 4% damage reduction as 4 armor and 4 MR, we get (all mental math here)

About 450 in HP, relative to a ruby crystal.
About 150 in MR, relative to a faerie charm
About 170 in Armor, relative to cloth armor
About 170 in MR, relative to a null magic mantle.

840 total, before you factor in any curveballs that aren't easy to calculate.

Now, the damage reduction from minions essentially renders them incapable of harming you, and gives a decent amount against champions, so if we assume that it's worth 15 armor, you add in another 250 worth for armor, so 1090 so far.

Then we have to add in dodge, CDR, extra EXP, etc. Going with Ninja Tabi, we can assume about a 120 cost for our dodge, so 1210 so far. CDR, factors in at another 150, so about 1360. The armor pen works out to be around 300 if you calculate it on a brutalizer, so that's 1660. Now all we have is +6% regen, a slight shortage in time dead/a buff to ghost or teleport, and 5% EXP. +6% regen is probably not worth all that much early on, so maybe 40 gold, 1700 so far, while +5% EXP is worth a pretty good amount, but it's hard to quantify.

You certainly wind up very close to 2k gold worth of items with this, with a lot of unquantifiables at work. Plus, you get it at level one, making it more valuable, and the only going rate on what I've put down has been based on combination items that are much more efficient than what you start the game with.

Poison_Fish

2010-05-14, 02:54 AM

And say if your trying amumu, magic pen isn't bad on him for marks either, but ultimately, armor pen is solid on many other tanks. Shen still does decent damage as a tank, and armor pen helps that more, rather then sub-par runes.

Brother Oni

2010-05-14, 02:59 AM

Further to Milskidasith's numbers, there's an actual test you can do which proves the worth of masteries and runes.

Set up a 1v1 game on TT with a friend. You both use the same mutually agreed champion, with the same mutually agreed summoner spells.

You have no runes (you'll need a blank rune page for this) and 1 mastery point. Your friend has their default level 30 layout of masteries and T3 runes.

Unless you completely change your playstyle to a defensive tower hugging one, I'd be very surprised if they don't completely stomp you.

Edit:
Since people are recommending armour penetration marks for tanks, I was wondering if Cho'gath should stack armour or magic penetration marks due to his vorpal spikes? I'm currently using all magic, but would some armour penetration be useful as well?

Dallas-Dakota

2010-05-14, 05:19 AM

That just depends on what item build you are planning and how you're playing Cho'gath.

I myself, usually go with Armor Pens. Almost always have my red field filled up with it.

Anyway.

GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.
RAGE.

I've tried starting up a game now.
It gives you that mini-thingy loading screen. Just before the real loading screen where you can see everybody's champs.

It then says: Unable to connect. It may be your firewall, please check it.

It's not my firewall, nor any other protection on my computer? How do I know, I've disabled all of it after double checking the settings on my Firewall.

GRAH.

So untill I figure out a solution, no League of Legends for me.:smallfurious:

Brother Oni

2010-05-14, 06:19 AM

That just depends on what item build you are planning and how you're playing Cho'gath.

I myself, usually go with Armor Pens. Almost always have my red field filled up with it.

I play a tank Cho'gath almost exclusively. I'm just wondering if full magic penetration marks makes the additional spikes damage larger than the missing physical damage from not taking a full set of armour penetration runes.

It then says: Unable to connect. It may be your firewall, please check it.

Can I suggest this:

Up Down Left Right Up Up Down Down (http://imbacore.blogspot.com/2009/11/league-of-legends-server-unavailable.html)

Apparently it's a DNS issue; the above key combination is a keyboard shortcut that fixes this, although if there's an issue with the servers, you won't be able to play very well, if at all.

Moklok

2010-05-14, 10:44 AM

http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/rune-page-planner#&rune=288:9-266:3-303:9-300:9

This gives you a much better view of what runes can *actually* do. By replacing the (pointless) T3 quints/seals of per level HP (which is terrible at level 1, when this matters the most) with dodge, you get huge benefits. Plus, yellow dodge happens to be one of the best runes in terms of power compared to quints; yellow HPs are good but not great, but yellow dodges are a whopping 50% of the power of a quint. Marks of armor pen are because a lot of tanks nowadays deal physical damage and it makes last hitting easier; attack speed could also be used, especially with off tanks that hit hard like Mundo. Kept the CDR in as well.

http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/mastery-tree-planner#&tree1=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree2=0-3-0-3-0-4-2-1-3-4-0-0-0-1&tree3=0-1-3-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

This gets you 6 armor, 6 magic armor, 2% extra dodge, a movespeed bonus on dodge, makes you essentially immune to minion attacks, +60 more HP, and the 4% damage reduction, which honestly isn't all that (it's basically 4 armor/MR, but it applies to Feast.), and you have +1.66666 Mana/5 with 6% increased regen and a 5% experience increase.

Counting the 4% damage reduction as 4 armor and 4 MR, we get (all mental math here)

About 450 in HP, relative to a ruby crystal.
About 150 in MR, relative to a faerie charm
About 170 in Armor, relative to cloth armor
About 170 in MR, relative to a null magic mantle.

840 total, before you factor in any curveballs that aren't easy to calculate.

Now, the damage reduction from minions essentially renders them incapable of harming you, and gives a decent amount against champions, so if we assume that it's worth 15 armor, you add in another 250 worth for armor, so 1090 so far.

Then we have to add in dodge, CDR, extra EXP, etc. Going with Ninja Tabi, we can assume about a 120 cost for our dodge, so 1210 so far. CDR, factors in at another 150, so about 1360. The armor pen works out to be around 300 if you calculate it on a brutalizer, so that's 1660. Now all we have is +6% regen, a slight shortage in time dead/a buff to ghost or teleport, and 5% EXP. +6% regen is probably not worth all that much early on, so maybe 40 gold, 1700 so far, while +5% EXP is worth a pretty good amount, but it's hard to quantify.

You certainly wind up very close to 2k gold worth of items with this, with a lot of unquantifiables at work. Plus, you get it at level one, making it more valuable, and the only going rate on what I've put down has been based on combination items that are much more efficient than what you start the game with.

About the runes, the 2 only tanks I play are Rammus and Alistar. Only reason I would take attack speed Marks would be to help me last hit..Which I already have no issue with. Armor pen runes, those 2 heroes deal such negligible auto attacks, why would I bother buffing it with a tiny bit(I think its 16?) of armor pen? No point. In terms of defensive stats, the only one worthwile is Armor for Marks, which is why I picked it. For Seals, yes, Dodge runes are better, they also cost 7400 IP total to get, which I cant afford, and HP/level is pretty much the second best thing there is so, I counted that instead of something I dont have. Oh and I said FLAT HP not hp/level Quints btw.

Now for masteries, I even overvalued the dodge bonus last time. Its .5% per rank instead of 1%, so thats 2% instead of the 4% that I mentioned. the 6 armor and MR, I knew about them but I did say there were a few other goodies that really dont matter.....Yea, I count those in. 6 MR and 6 MR is MAYBE 1% damage reduction, probably less. about Nimbleness, im not a huge fan of it unless I play a character that gets PD or Tabi. Without those, you only get 7-8% dodge, and even when you do get it, its only 10% for 5secs, not exactly that reliable. Also, are you really counting the 1.6 mana regen? Uh....ok.

Beyond that, most of your numbers look ok, except a few things. First, that 250 for minion damage reduc is just over the top. Its only 2 damage reduced from minions, not from everyone. Cant be valued as the same as Cloth Armor. I would say it wouldnt even be worth half of regular armor considering how minion damage is very rare. Fairy charm is 3 MR for 180, so its fair to assume its worth 60. Armor pen doesnt exist for me so remove that 300, I have 8 armor bonus instead, which makes the armor value 233 instead of 170. CDR is worth 100 using Fiendish Codex values, not 150.

All this is already below 1.5k, and I could go lower if I continue calculating.

Milskidasith

2010-05-14, 12:22 PM

About the runes, the 2 only tanks I play are Rammus and Alistar. Only reason I would take attack speed Marks would be to help me last hit..Which I already have no issue with. Armor pen runes, those 2 heroes deal such negligible auto attacks, why would I bother buffing it with a tiny bit(I think its 16?) of armor pen?

Actually, Rammus has absurd autoattacks... Passive + DBQ = huge damage increase, he actually hits *very* hard. Adding in attack speed or armor pen, which gives a huge benefit (17% increase to damage) is actually not negligable at all, especially early game when Rammus is generally weak when he gets into a taunt inflicted slugout.

No point.

If you ignore your own characters passive, then sure, there's no point.

In terms of defensive stats, the only one worthwile is Armor for Marks, which is why I picked it.

Actually, marks have terrible defensive stats for all of them, and 8 armor is very negligable, especially since armor is less useful than flat HP as far as runes go, even on marks. Even further, I said that runes get you about 2k; if you use bad runes, of course you will get less value.

For Seals, yes, Dodge runes are better, they also cost 7400 IP total to get, which I cant afford, and HP/level is pretty much the second best thing there is so, I counted that instead of something I dont have. Oh and I said FLAT HP not hp/level Quints btw.

Also, saying "I can't afford the runes" is not an excuse. They give you an absurd amount of extra benefits. Flat HP quints are good, but HP/level yellows are the worst defensive yellows besides the other /level stuff. Dodges are worth more and give more benefits.

Now for masteries, I even overvalued the dodge bonus last time. Its .5% per rank instead of 1%, so thats 2% instead of the 4% that I mentioned. the 6 armor and MR, I knew about them but I did say there were a few other goodies that really dont matter.....

They matter.

Yea, I count those in. 6 MR and 6 MR is MAYBE 1% damage reduction, probably less.

Two things: First off, however much they reduce is *not* relevant. The point I made was the cost in items you get, which doesn't matter. If armor did absolutely nothing, the armor mastery would still give you 170 in armor because of the cost of early game armor items.

Second of all: You are completely wrong on the formula for armor. Every point in armor is, effectively, 1% of your base (unarmored) HP against autoattacks. If you start with 400 HP, every point of armor is essentially 4 more HP against autoattacks. Each *point* of armor is 1%, so saying that 6 points of armor is a grand total of 1% reduction is completely absurd.

about Nimbleness, im not a huge fan of it unless I play a character that gets PD or Tabi. Without those, you only get 7-8% dodge, and even when you do get it, its only 10% for 5secs, not exactly that reliable. Also, are you really counting the 1.6 mana regen? Uh....ok.

If you want to ignore half the benefits, like I said earlier, then sure, you're going to get a lot lower value. As for counting 1.6 mana regen: Yes. It's a pretty good amount. It's a little over half an actual mana regen item. It's an extra two spells or so in the normal laning phase. I didn't even count nimbleness in my calculations, because it isn't that useful, but if you are getting attacked by creeps and a hero while fleeing, it will proc, which is useful.

Beyond that, most of your numbers look ok, except a few things. First, that 250 for minion damage reduc is just over the top. Its only 2 damage reduced from minions, not from everyone. Cant be valued as the same as Cloth Armor. I would say it wouldnt even be worth half of regular armor considering how minion damage is very rare. Fairy charm is 3 MR for 180, so its fair to assume its worth 60. Armor pen doesnt exist for me so remove that 300, I have 8 armor bonus instead, which makes the armor value 233 instead of 170. CDR is worth 100 using Fiendish Codex values, not 150.

Minion damage isn't rare. If you are a harasser, like most tanks can be, you will get hit a *lot.* Not only that, I counted it as 250 for both the "hero" and "minion" ones combined. With those, minion damage goes from relevant at lower levels (you attack a hero, you'll take around 60-70 damage from minions) to nothing (maybe 20 damage from creeps if you attack somebody.) 50 HP every time you attempt to harass somebody is a *much* bigger benefit than I actually calculated, and that includes damage from heroes as well.

Plus, it's 4 damage. 2 from minions, two from all sources. As for faerie charm being worth so little; you get over half the use of faerie charm, and yet you're giving it one third the benefits... you are blatently altering the math to support your arguments.

All this is already below 1.5k, and I could go lower if I continue calculating.

If you mean "ignoring benefits" then yes, you could go lower. But that's not the point. If you had a good rune setup, didn't ignore the benefits you get, didn't use ignorance of how the damage system works as part of your argument for how you can ignore more benefits, and didn't blatently falsify your math (one third the cost of an item when you get over half the benefits), then you might have a point. As it is, though, you're just grasping at straws and using cross-matched and ineffective runes as an argument tool.

EDIT: As for Cho'Gath, MR pen is more useful.

Joran

2010-05-14, 12:23 PM

Yea, I count those in. 6 MR and 6 MR is MAYBE 1% damage reduction, probably less.

6 armor and 6 MR is about 5.6% damage reduction. You calculate damage reduction for armor and MR by (I believe):

(resist)/(100+resist).

50 MR will reduce your incoming damage by a third. Each point of MR or armor increases your time to live by one percent. So, 150 MR will increase your time to live by 150%.

Armor pen runes, those 2 heroes deal such negligible auto attacks, why would I bother buffing it with a tiny bit(I think its 16?) of armor pen? No point. In terms of defensive stats, the only one worthwile is Armor for Marks, which is why I picked it.

Well, I usually buy runes for use on different champions. Armor Pen runes are by far the best cost vs. benefit for melee DPS. Early game, not many people have armor, so even Alistar hits like a truck with armor penetration. Additionally, towers have armor, so it increases your auto-attack against the tower, downing them faster. But mostly I use them because they're the only marks I have and are useful across a whole spectrum of champions.

Milskidasith

2010-05-14, 01:49 PM

6 armor and 6 MR is about 5.6% damage reduction. You calculate damage reduction for armor and MR by (I believe):

(resist)/(100+resist).

50 MR will reduce your incoming damage by a third. Each point of MR or armor increases your time to live by one percent. So, 150 MR will increase your time to live by 150%.

Well, I usually buy runes for use on different champions. Armor Pen runes are by far the best cost vs. benefit for melee DPS. Early game, not many people have armor, so even Alistar hits like a truck with armor penetration. Additionally, towers have armor, so it increases your auto-attack against the tower, downing them faster. But mostly I use them because they're the only marks I have and are useful across a whole spectrum of champions.

Well, Mpen is useful on a much wider variety of champions, since a lot of tanks deal damage mostly through magic (Cho'gath, Shen), a lot of support hit hard with magic (Soraka, Sivir [though she can get armor pen as well]), and casters generally want Mpen more. But yeah, armor pen rocks, even for Alistar and Rammus; in fact, both of their passives make it more useful than on many other tanks (again, Cho'gath.)

Silverraptor

2010-05-14, 02:18 PM

I was just wondering when the usual get together time is for us in League of legends to play as a team.

Brother Oni

2010-05-14, 03:05 PM

The regular time is 4pm EST on Saturday.

There were some alternative times bandied about, but no-one's said yes to any other them.

Of course, that's only the official meeting time. If you happen to be on when there are a couple other GitPers about, there's nothing stopping you from joining in with them.

I should be online sometime tomorrow, depending on how well my computer upgrade/rebuild goes.

Fawkes

2010-05-14, 03:06 PM

I just installed this, but haven't played it yet. What's a good way to get started?

Summoner name is Count Fawkes.

Thrawn183

2010-05-14, 03:12 PM

Read some of the posts about things to remember.

Play a simple character, I suggest Tristana, Sivir or Ashe (At least one is usually available for free, I don't remember off the top of my head about right now).

Some quick pointers:
- You want to get the last hit on minions, for gold.
- You want to stay in your lane as long as is safe, for experience.
- You want to not die to keep doing the above, while denying it to your enemies.
- Towers will kill you really fast early game, stay away from them.

Ask team members for things to watch out for with particular enemies (ie. ones that have an ultimate that can hit you anywhere on the map so you can't let your HP get too low, for example)

Edit: I have a low ELO account under: SupahSmurfPowah If we play a team game, it shouldn't throw us up against opponents with too high of skill.

Astrella

2010-05-14, 03:14 PM

Ah, I've got a smurf under the name of AntimonyCarver as well, so if you'd like an intro game, just add me.

Moklok

2010-05-14, 04:05 PM

wall of text

Ignoring my heroes passives? Rammus's passive scaled with armor. And I dont consider his auto attack to be that amazing. You wont kill people just with auto attacks on Rammus, and if you do, the armor pen marks are definitly not the reason hes dead, its because hes bad.

Marks do have terrible defensive stats, but offensive stats are not great for the tanks I play for the way I play them. Evens out IMO.

About the seals, HP/Level is best seal for some heroes, even over dodge. For tanks there are 2 seals that are worth it IMO: HP/Level or Dodge. Flat HP gets beaten by HP/level by lvl 5-6. You already have flat Health quints, why bother getting a tiny bonus for 4-5 levels that go by insanely fast. Might as well get scaling HP. What other stat is good for tanks in seal? Please enlighten me, because I dont see anything that would actually be better other then Dodge. Calling it the worst defensive Seal is a joke.

Not sure about the formula, but im pretty sure it has diminishing returns, so having a general rule of 1armor = 1% hp seems a lil off to me.

And about the last part, no, I didnt mean "I could go lower by ignoring parts", I meant that over half of your maths was just plain wrong, you did the math in your head like you said. Fairy charm is 3 MP5, Masteries give 1.6, which is roughly half. Shouldnt you cut the price in half considering that? Fairy charm is 180, so 90(and I just realized I said 60 earlier, shut up I had just woke up!:smalltongue:). And no im not grasping at straws or using a "bad" rune setup. Even the dodge in your calculation could be counted for less. Ninja Tabi upgrade costs 200, and gives you 8 armor, second movement speed upgrade and the dodge. The 8 armor is already worth over 100 comparing it to Cloth armor, so saying 8 dodge is worth 120 is over what it should actually count for when you consider 11% costs less then that in Tabis, and thats without counting the movement speed upgrade.

Poison_Fish

2010-05-14, 05:08 PM

Northforce

2010-05-14, 05:12 PM

I suppose I should put my summoner name up in here, it being Shiny Pidgeot, but I have another group of people I play LoL with. Still, should be fun to discuss it here, as long as the community here does not dip into some of the community I've seen for LoL and the other MOBA's. :smallwink:

I went ahead and got the Stinger Akali bundle, mostly because Kill Bill is one of my favorite movies, and so far she's pretty fun to play, even if she's almost squishier than Corki. I'd like to see her be a little more useful in team fights though. Maybe if her smoke field reduced AS? I thought I'd heard that idea bounce around the community a bit.

Moklok

2010-05-14, 05:28 PM

You... haven't played much Rammus, have you? As far as tanks go, he's actually going to do something with his auto-attacks. Alistar smashing through towers is also good, especially if he has a sivir or something else on his team.

I'm sorry, I can't accept your complete dismissal of tank auto-attacks, especially since they will hit and can actually do damage in early lanning. Late game, Alistar may matter less, but damage adds up.

and of course you won't kill people just with auto-attacks, but you still use them because it stacks up. This has been the case since dota even. Your not going to be an attack move character, but then, few characters are in LoL.

Edit: Additionally, if your doing more damage, your being more threatening, essentially, this can make you a better tank. All that armor is for nothing if I'm just going to ignore you after your cool downs. Rammus can still get some so-so hurt on, especially if he's gone down the route for a Thornmail, Randiuns, and guardian angel. He needs to be doing something between his cool downs, be that hitting a squishy to keep them from interfering or some other form of interference with the team.

Your objective as Rammus or any tank is staying the middle of the attention. Yes you do auto attack but the damage you deal from curl+thornsmail+ult(and possibly Sunfire) is whats killing the enemy, not the auto attacks. And the damage shouldnt be coming out that much from you, more from your allies who have a chance at killing them as you slow them and taunt them. With all the tools Rammus got as a tank, I dont think being worried about your auto attack damage is what really counts.

Milskidasith

2010-05-14, 05:30 PM

Ignoring my heroes passives? Rammus's passive scaled with armor. And I dont consider his auto attack to be that amazing. You wont kill people just with auto attacks on Rammus, and if you do, the armor pen marks are definitly not the reason hes dead, its because hes bad.

Negating 17% of the enemies health (or, well, an amount of HP equivalent to 17% of their base health, to be precise) is *very* powerful with rammus. His passive scales with armor, yes... and makes his attacks hit frigging hard. Getting even *more* out of those attacks makes the passive better, whereas, say, Cho'gath isn't so great with armor pen. It's the same reason that people like Yi and Trist scale better with items; they have a "steroid skill" that makes items do more. In Rammus's case, it is more armor = more damage, and more damage = more bonus per point of armor pen.

Marks do have terrible defensive stats, but offensive stats are not great for the tanks I play for the way I play them. Evens out IMO.

Even if your method of playing was better (which it pretty much objectively *isn't*), that doesn't change the fact that using runes that are actually valid for their color gets you 2k, while your method of "use bad runes and ignore stuff" gets you your value of 1.5k. I mean, seriously, if you are going to make a claim that you don't find runes all that effective, like you did, and then make up incredibly lowball numbers for the gold value of them, at least rely on something besides "I can't afford dodge runes and don't like any marks that actually have a noticable effect."

A
bout the seals, HP/Level is best seal for some heroes, even over dodge. For tanks there are 2 seals that are worth it IMO: HP/Level or Dodge. Flat HP gets beaten by HP/level by lvl 5-6. You already have flat Health quints, why bother getting a tiny bonus for 4-5 levels that go by insanely fast. Might as well get scaling HP. What other stat is good for tanks in seal? Please enlighten me, because I dont see anything that would actually be better other then Dodge. Calling it the worst defensive Seal is a joke.

Dodge, MR, Armor, etc. all provide more than scaling health, because tanks are ALREADY getting huge amounts of health. Scaling health is bad because by the time you are level 5/6 and scaling health is beating things, you have at least boots and *probably* one decent tankey item pretty close to be finished, you already have enough HP that flat armor, dodge, and MR are still beating out scaling health in terms of benefits. Flat health is only useful because, at early levels, even tanks aren't exactly going to last forever in a fight, and an extra 160 HP at level 1 is powerful; an extra 160 HP at level 6 is two autoattacks.

Not sure about the formula, but im pretty sure it has diminishing returns, so having a general rule of 1armor = 1% hp seems a lil off to me.

Please reread what I said. Each point of armor is worth 1% of your *base* HP in effective HP. Yes, the % diminishes; 100 armor is 50%, 200 armor is 66%, etc... but no matter how much armor you have, another point will always give you *exactly* 1% extra effective HP off the base. It's only diminishing in the same way a BFS might double your attack at level 1, but only increase your attack by 50% when you already have a BFS; it's still +50 damage.

And about the last part, no, I didnt mean "I could go lower by ignoring parts", I meant that over half of your maths was just plain wrong, you did the math in your head like you said.

What math was wrong? All I got wrong was fairy charm, which I priced as if it was a meki, and everything else I actually lowballed. Please point out one math error where I grossly overestimated the cost of an item, please. This is excluding the other fact that half the stats, since they can only be gotten by combining, are being priced at the already discounted high tier item price.

And no im not grasping at straws or using a "bad" rune setup.

Yes, you are. You are using a bad rune setup (any setup which involves scaling HP over flat dodge, and putting runes in slots they shouldn't be, is bad and inefficient, except for when magic pen used to be blue so people would put it in red anyway), and your arguments actually consisted of "I can't afford dodge runes."

Even the dodge in your calculation could be counted for less. Ninja Tabi upgrade costs 200, and gives you 8 armor, second movement speed upgrade and the dodge. The 8 armor is already worth over 100 comparing it to Cloth armor, so saying 8 dodge is worth 120 is over what it should actually count for when you consider 11% costs less then that in Tabis, and thats without counting the movement speed upgrade.

Again, this is the "It's an item where it combines for essentially free bonuses" problem. Dodge doesn't scale well, and the only items it combines in give it away essentially for free. I could calculate it based on your tanks HP and give the cost back in armor/HP items, but that actually makes it pricier than what I put it at. In fact, all of the stuff that I priced based on high tier items, I could, with more math, figure out the equivalent cost in basic items, and the values would be *much* higher. For instance, the amount of dodge you have, about 9%, would be, if you had zero armor, 9 armor in value, and the effect only goes up from there, so, in terms of damage mitigated, it's at least 150, and with your starting armor being more around 40, probably in the 200s.

Your objective as Rammus or any tank is staying the middle of the attention.

QUESTION: How do you become the center of attention after your meaningful crowd control is gone and off cooldown for eight seconds?

ANSWER: By dealing damage!

QUESTION: Does a minimal amount of armor, on a champion people will already ignore using physical attacks against, help deal damage?

ANSWER: No (well, it's like 2 damage with his passive).

Yes you do auto attack but the damage you deal from curl+thornsmail+ult(and possibly Sunfire) is whats killing the enemy, not the auto attacks.

The ult requires the enemy to stay in it, which is not likely to happen, and deals the damage over time, so it's *still* not enough damage to make Rammus worth focusing if it's his only source of damage. Curl and thornmail require enemies to hit you, which, again, is not something they would want to do unless you were putting out relevant amounts of damage; if you go pure tank with rammus, once you finish taunting somebody you've got nothing.

And the damage shouldnt be coming out that much from you, more from your allies who have a chance at killing them as you slow them and taunt them.

You can taunt one person, a quarter of the time. In teamfights, that's not all that great in terms of CC. You also have a minimal slow with an OK nuke attached. It's not bad, but it's not great, either, as far as CC goes. After you use those two, however, what reason do enemies have to attack you? Rammus is the tank who says "Don't freaking attack me" whenever he has his DBQ up, which, while great for taunting, just doesn't make him a viable target.

With all the tools Rammus got as a tank, I dont think being worried about your auto attack damage is what really counts.

Rammus is actually pretty bad as far as tanks go.

His CC is sub par. He has a slow, a single target taunt, a massive "I'm not a good target" skill, and an ult which deals decent, but not great, damage in an area. Most importantly, he has *no* way of either preventing allies from taking damage (besides taunt) or making him a worth person to attack. He needs *something* to make him worthy of attacking.

Moklok

2010-05-14, 05:50 PM

Ugh, tired of walls of texts, so ill just end it with this.

You obviously believe that every stat count, while i believe that a simple 6 MR/Armor is so negligible in the end that counting every single detail is completly pointless. Only when 2 players at the exact same skill level face eachother(which never really happens) those stats come in play, and even then, they count for less then crit RNG.

And yes, you did value some stats over what they are worth. I already pointed out a few, and I know others like Armor and HP were above by a few too. You did the math in your head like you said, so those were just estimations, while most of the numbers are under what you listed.

And I liked that little part here:

Even if your method of playing was better (which it pretty much objectively *isn't*)

Personal insults? Really? You have never seen me play, and because I prefer 8 armor over 16 armor pen as a tank you think you are better then me? Wow....Ok. Whatever.

Milskidasith

2010-05-14, 06:01 PM

You obviously believe that every stat count, while i believe that a simple 6 MR/Armor is so negligible in the end that counting every single detail is completly pointless. Only when 2 players at the exact same skill level face eachother(which never really happens) those stats come in play, and even then, they count for less then crit RNG.

Actually, no. Base crit is... a couple percent? The chances of somebody who is fully runed losing to somebody who isn't in a straight up slugfest due to crits are absurdly low. Runes matter, a lot. Obviously, incompetent vs. not incompetent would favor the not incompetent person, but the skill gap has to be *huge* to have 30 levels of masteries and a full page of T3 runes be meaningless.

And yes, you did value some stats over what they are worth. I already pointed out a few, and I know others like Armor and HP were above by a few too. You did the math in your head like you said, so those were just estimations, while most of the numbers are under what you listed.

None of them were overvalued. Dodge couldn't be effectively calculated with the items, yes, but all the others were accurate.

Personal insults? Really? You have never seen me play, and because I prefer 8 armor over 16 armor pen as a tank you think you are better then me? Wow....Ok. Whatever.

No. I said objectively. Objectively, 16% extra damage dealt is more powerful than 8% more effective HP. It's just how things are. It's not a matter of personal insults, or playing style... it's just the fact that the armor pen gets you a lot more bang for your buck, and it's only in edge cases where the 8 armor would be more effective. You are taking this far too personally.

Thrawn183

2010-05-14, 08:35 PM

So to get myself on the OP :smallbiggrin:
Thrawn183, Thrawnyboy (main), SupahSmurfPowah (Smurf)

Oh, played a fun game of TT with some GitP'ers:

http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae156/Thrawn318/Nice.jpg

toasty

2010-05-14, 10:35 PM

the servers are full. :(

I'm sad. :(

Silverraptor

2010-05-14, 11:16 PM

I just played a really weird game.:smallconfused:

Okay, there was me at level 17 playing Rammus and then there was a master Yi at level 27 on my team. Then there was a level 14 warwick followed by a level 2 Garen and level 1 Ryze. The Ryze was in my lane and he was pathetic. More often then not, I risk myself to try and save him and I succeed. But then he runs right back out instantly behind the enemies minions and then both Karthus and Pantheon we were playing with would kill him seconds later. He didn't heven cast many spells. He was focusing on Ryzes basic attack. He pretty much got every doran item and healing potions, those were his only items. The result in me trying to save him meant that I died about 5 times early game.

And then everything changed...

I made a joking comment to all about if there was anyone on the other team that wanted to switch places with me, and the Yi player instead apologized to me. Then he arrived and slaughtered both players when I went back to finally get my Thornmail. Afterwards, I got an unstoppable 5 killstreak bonus with a double kill bonus in between by the same players who were owning my butt to begin with. No matter what they did, I would defeat them and still have roughly half my health left to do as I pleased.

The game didn't last for 30 minutes and the other team surrendered. I don't know what to make of it, but the skill level of those guys late game was, "Wow. What happened? Your skill level suddenly dropped." And I know it was the same people because we were talking to each other throughout the whole game.

Poison_Fish

2010-05-14, 11:35 PM

I see that warwick is a fan of Santōryū :p.

Anyhow, Molok, the large issue with Rammus is just as Milsk described. I, arguably, get a thornmail and the tank active item on him because he's otherwise not doing much other then his flat abilities which aren't enough to make you a focused target. The thornmail so you can up your damage to someone when you do taunt, but it also gives damage you can do(at least doing something, especially if your being ignored, you walk over to one of their casters who's in the middle of doing the dance) and allows at least another slight disable that can work off dbc.

Thusly, the armor pen actually works out better then adding more armor on top of him. The way Rammus is running disruption besides his abilities is actively targeting and getting in the way of(like most other tanks) of casters and others who are attempting to get in and throw their spells. Thusly, he's not necessarily in the middle of things, he may be right on the enemies side. Tanking is as much mind game as it is straight out stats, and doing damage to a lower health caster/carry who's trying to ignore you is one way to throw off their game. It means they can't just necessarily ignore you (Note, this is why I like playing Garen as a tank, since he's still threatening regardless.)

Heck, if I want to go off a further deep end, magic regen in your marks would work better then armor.

Also, though I didn't comment on it before, health per level is fairly laughable. It gets eaten away in a couple of auto-attacks or even one later on. instead, flat mitigation in all cases (dodge) or early game advantage (flat health) end up holding a place. Much like how people may argue about the "uselessness" of dorans items (arguably blade is the only useless one I see), they provide an early game advantage to lanning, that's where their point lay. Health per level, unfortunately, does not provide that advantage where it will be supposedly most useful.

Thrawn183

2010-05-14, 11:48 PM

For your turnaround, did the other team know what items to buy?

Silverraptor

2010-05-15, 12:10 AM

I don't know... I didn't check.

Anyways, I am loving Rammus!:smallbiggrin: I have yet to lose a single game with him and I've played about 9 straight. And I play him exactly as he should be played, a tank. More often then not, my group is retreating all low on health with the entire enemy team right behind them. I always show up just in time to powerball into them, taunt one, use his ult, then retreat with my defense ability active and I still have half health by the time I'm back on the other side of the tower with the entire enemy team's health the equivalent of less than half their health.

I actually managed to solo against three people at once, all full health, and I scored a triple kill with a quarter of my health still to spare. And they were pretty competent people too. This was in a whole new game I just did just now. Also, even if they did kill me, I had the guardian angel buff active, so I would've come back right on top of them to clean house.

Dallas-Dakota

2010-05-15, 04:49 AM

Thrawn, thrawn, or Roelivan. Please tell me you have the names of our enemies of the last game with played?

They were so much fun and such a challenge to play against, I want to Buddy Request them please.

My game crashed after the last game.

Also, yeah, a verah nice game that was. 17/2/5. ^^
You had some great stats as well.

Thrawn183

2010-05-15, 09:27 AM

Uh.... that Cho'gath player's name started with an R?

Edit: I'm actually having a bit of trouble with my poppy play. I start with the Stone for health and mana regen (extremely useful for both staying in lane despite harassment and having enough mana to last hit easily) boots and then Sheen. This combination has been extremely effective for me. I just never know where to go from there.

Sometimes I grab Guardian Angel, sometimes I actually go for Tiamat (in spite of how bad an item it is) for the ability to farm some minions. I just feel like I start to fall behind late game, and I suspect it is because my item build isn't keeping up.

Rockbird

2010-05-15, 10:14 AM

So i bought Gentleman Cho'Gath. Epic skin is epic.

"You cheeky little fellow!"

Oh, and i'm Rockbird on the EU servers.

Terazul

2010-05-15, 11:23 AM

Edit: I'm actually having a bit of trouble with my poppy play. I start with the Stone for health and mana regen (extremely useful for both staying in lane despite harassment and having enough mana to last hit easily) boots and then Sheen. This combination has been extremely effective for me. I just never know where to go from there.

Sometimes I grab Guardian Angel, sometimes I actually go for Tiamat (in spite of how bad an item it is) for the ability to farm some minions. I just feel like I start to fall behind late game, and I suspect it is because my item build isn't keeping up.

...Well are you trying to tank, or DPS, or what? You've got plenty of options, as she's fairly straightforward melee. Build the Sheen into a Trinity Force, If looking to kill, you could pick up the usuals like a Youmuu's, a Stark's. Or a Madred's if you want more "screw your max health" synergy with your Q. Or for tanking, grab the appropriate MR/Armor items depending on the opposing teams makeup, get some health, and get-a rollin.

Edit: One weird thing I noticed compared to other SheenSpam champs is that unlike most others, her Q cannot crit, and is wholly magic damage, affected by Magic Pen instead of Armor; Prolly because it deals a metric ton without crit to begin with. So maybe keep that in mind, if you're trying to maximise Q? *shrug*

Brother Oni

2010-05-15, 12:32 PM

I should be online sometime tomorrow, depending on how well my computer upgrade/rebuild goes.

After 2 hours of building and 11 hours of struggling to install Windows 7, I've finally upgraded my computer. :smallfurious:

Apparently Cool n'Quiet isn't sufficient to keep a quad core processor cool enough, so it should be disabled - nothing wrong with the power supply, hard drive, processor, motherboard, ram, graphics card, DVI cable or software, just one damn little bios entry. :smallfurious:

Anyway, anybody turning up tonight?

Astrella

2010-05-15, 12:45 PM

I should normally be present.

Silverraptor

2010-05-15, 01:28 PM

I think I'll be able to get on.

1 o'clock Pacific standard time, right?

Rama

2010-05-15, 01:35 PM

I think I'll be able to get on.

1 o'clock Pacific standard time, right?

Correct. I should be on as well this week.

Silverraptor

2010-05-15, 02:47 PM

Alright, so I'm getting on now. Although I only have a couple names in my friends list from here.

Thrawn183

2010-05-15, 04:35 PM

We're all on now, so join in if you want.

Fawkes

2010-05-15, 05:10 PM

Already made it up to Summoner level 5. This game's fun.

Silverraptor

2010-05-15, 06:29 PM

Does anyone else have LoL as "Unavailable" as of right now?:smallconfused:

Poison_Fish

2010-05-15, 07:00 PM

There has been an issue with queuing so the servers were brought down.

Thrawn183

2010-05-15, 08:37 PM

Yeah, I was having lots of problems with Qeueing.

I'm also happy to say, that I apparently play quite a decent Zilean.

Milskidasith

2010-05-15, 09:42 PM

Yeah, I was having lots of problems with Qeueing.

I'm also happy to say, that I apparently play quite a decent Zilean.

He's never been hard, that I've found. Chronoshift somebody you either want to deal a lot of damage in a big fight or is about to die, run around really fast, doublebomb, and once you have all your mana regen spam the hell out of rewind so you can ult every 20 seconds and be constantly moving like a blur.

Basically, to use the scientific term, you faceroll QWER to win.

Still, it's surprising how many people don't know this stuff, or don't buy CDR, or don't harass well with bombs, so... yeah. Room for good players to shine, there is.

Fawkes

2010-05-16, 01:17 AM

I'm also happy to say, that I apparently play quite a decent Zilean.

I got 15 kills in one match as Tristana. Personal best by a wide margin, as well as my only positive Kill-Death ratio. I lost pretty badly as Warwick and Karthus, lost as Ryze but did okay, won as Nunu but didn't contribute much.

I need more practice.

toasty

2010-05-16, 01:43 AM

I got 15 kills in one match as Tristana. Personal best by a wide margin, as well as my only positive Kill-Death ratio. I lost pretty badly as Warwick and Karthus, lost as Ryze but did okay, won as Nunu but didn't contribute much.

I need more practice.

That's a rather wide variety of heroes there... my brother is awesome with Karthus though, he always manages to get a positive K/D ratio, something I need to learn to do with most heroes period. :smallbiggrin: (I can usually wing it with Sivir, but that's about it).

Speaking of Nunu, how, exactly do you play with him? I tend to build AP and the like, but often I just end up dying a lot, getting a lot of assists, maybe, but dying a LOT. Is this because I suck or because I'm not playing him right? I mean, generally, I just spam my spells and try to use the ulti to kill everyone in the team battles... but I usually end up dying. :smallfrown:

Fawkes

2010-05-16, 01:51 AM

That's a rather wide variety of heroes there...

Well, I'm new at this. I've been giving all of them a try.

Speaking of Nunu, how, exactly do you play with him? I tend to build AP and the like, but often I just end up dying a lot, getting a lot of assists, maybe, but dying a LOT. Is this because I suck or because I'm not playing him right? I mean, generally, I just spam my spells and try to use the ulti to kill everyone in the team battles... but I usually end up dying. :smallfrown:

That's about how well I did with Nunu. I tended to do really well against minions, but couldn't hold my own against other champions.

Astrella

2010-05-16, 06:49 AM

I personally don't see Nunu as a good initiator, mainly because his ult can be stopped so easily. (Unless you can pull it off from inside the shrub) I feel its better used to prevent enemies from chasing and the like. coupled with his snowball and the movement speed boost from frenzy makes him quite a good chaser.

Just remember to always have frenzy active on the DPS heroes on your team.

toasty

2010-05-16, 09:43 AM

Poison_Fish

2010-05-16, 09:59 AM

How the hell do you stop twitch? Besides pwning him early on and then pwning him for the rest of the game. I swear, every time I play against him i lose. Granted, we made some mistakes, but still... we had the game in the bag early on, but once Twitch built up... we lost.

He's still super squishy. Exhaust shuts him down harder then it shuts down other carries out there (everything of his dependent on his base attacks, exhaust during a pray and spray). Buy an oracles on someone survivable, burst him down. He's not a good one on one lanner either, so there are characters that should be able to solo him. Lane wise, he's still pretty squishy. Shut him down early if you can.

Thrawn183

2010-05-16, 10:00 AM

I got 15 kills in one match as Tristana. Personal best by a wide margin, as well as my only positive Kill-Death ratio. I lost pretty badly as Warwick and Karthus, lost as Ryze but did okay, won as Nunu but didn't contribute much.

I need more practice.

Well, don't give up on Warwick just yet, he can be a lot of fun even when your team isn't doing so hot.

http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae156/Thrawn318/WOW.jpg

Honestly, it sounds to me like you just need some more experience, so you can figure out when to attack and when to retreat. Tristana is kind of a beast at long range, which makes that less of an issue.

toasty

2010-05-16, 10:40 AM

warwick is my TT hero, and he's amazing. Get black cleaver on him and you will almost one-shot a squishy with your ulti.

My only problem is I tend to start the battles... which means I die... this is a bad thing. Like just now, I had Tryamedere on my team and he should have been starting... but really, it didn't matter, cuz we still won really badly. They had a very good defense in the end but we suicided the towers till the game was over.

Fawkes

2010-05-16, 01:09 PM

Honestly, it sounds to me like you just need some more experience, so you can figure out when to attack and when to retreat. Tristana is kind of a beast at long range, which makes that less of an issue.

My champions have a habit of chasing down enemies I don't want them to. I have a habit of losing sight of my champion when a large fight is going on with multiple champs on each side. And then I die.

Silverraptor

2010-05-16, 01:26 PM

My champions have a habit of chasing down enemies I don't want them to. I have a habit of losing sight of my champion when a large fight is going on with multiple champs on each side. And then I die.

My dad has the same problem when I was trying to introduce him to the game. He has to keep in the camera locked on his character or he'll lose it in an instant.

Brother Oni

2010-05-16, 03:34 PM

I'd like to apologise to the people I was playing with last night - apparently my computer was lulling me into a false sense of security about being fixed. :smallsigh:

Dragor

2010-05-16, 05:15 PM

I've been having huge connection problems with the US servers today. Usually my ping is 120-ish, but today it's been 300 and I've suffered 3 disconnects. Huh. :smallconfused:

Poison_Fish

2010-05-17, 02:14 AM

Thrawn183

2010-05-17, 07:22 AM

I bought Cho'gath! 5k+ HP, here I come!

Rama

2010-05-17, 07:47 AM

I bought Cho'gath! 5k+ HP, here I come!

Remember to practice your OMNOMNOM voice beforehand :p

Dallas-Dakota

2010-05-17, 07:56 AM

I love playing Cho'gath.:smallamused:

Prince Gimli

2010-05-17, 07:57 AM

So I understand you have Gitp games going on saturday? My account name is Malderon on both the US and Europe servers. My smurf on US is called Eoanthropus, which I use when playing with people who are much less experienced than I am, so I don't send them out like sheep amidst the wolves.

I bought Cho'gath! 5k+ HP, here I come!

For maybe the best Cho'Gath guide I've seen thus far, check out:

http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/summoners-rift-solo-mid-cho-1180

Altough it is difficult to play, and the writer himself states that the MFing Cho'Gath is probably better when you are new to him. Also, instead of the Mejaj's and Leviathan this build uses, you can take a Rod of Ages, in case you are unsure as to whether you can get enough kills to charge them or not.

Cho'Gath is also a difficult champion to play in general, I find especially the rupture aiming hard at times. But practise makes perfect. And nothing as satisfying as landing a rupture which kills off that fleeing opponent :smallamused:.

Silverraptor

2010-05-17, 09:16 AM

I must be really, really good. Because the game is alway partnering me with people 7 levels below me against all people that are 2 levels above me. I lost the last 4 games because my team doesn't seem to know jack and squat about staying together. They always seem to run off, even when we're so close to pushing to their final base. Not to mention that half of them don't even know what "mia" means or when to apply it or do about the given knowledge.:smallannoyed:

This is me saying, "What the hell?!"

Edit: Oh ya. Some of them don't even know what decent item builds are. This one Yi I was playing with had most of his items give mana and mana regen. He only had Infinity's edge as his only weapon that did any damage. When I confronted him after game about it, he said to me (Not in these exact words) "Well, I only have one sword, so I use the best there is." Apparently, he thinks of the items according to picture, not the buffs. Thinking that Yi would only use one sword in his entire inventory.

Now, I don't mind losing. But being constantly partered with stupid people like that is really, REALLY starting to get on my nerves.:smallmad:

toasty

2010-05-17, 10:56 AM

Honestly neither you or trynd should be initiating....

Ya, probably, but we were the best heroes to be doing it. I forget who my bro was playing... but it was by far a worse initiator.

What matter was that we won, and we won pretty badly. :smallbiggrin:

Fawkes

2010-05-17, 11:52 AM

I ended up buying the collector's bundle, because I am weak.

Joran

2010-05-17, 12:04 PM

I ended up buying the collector's bundle, because I am weak.

I did too. It's only $20 on Amazon and you get $10 worth of Riot points, which you can then sink + $20 into the other Champions pack and get all 40 launch champions. I play this game enough to sink money into it and I like having options.

Anybody buy skins? I'm being mighty tempted by the Bullfight Alistar skin.

Shades of Gray

2010-05-17, 12:16 PM

I went for Pantheon's myrmidon skin and Katarina's mercenary skin. The former I sort of regret, as I don't play him much any more.

I currently have 450 RP left, which I plan to spend on an IP boost and a discount skin that strikes my fancy.

Nohwl

2010-05-17, 01:46 PM

any advice for playing nasus?

Milskidasith

2010-05-17, 02:19 PM

Ya, probably, but we were the best heroes to be doing it. I forget who my bro was playing... but it was by far a worse initiator.

What matter was that we won, and we won pretty badly. :smallbiggrin:

I don't think you *can* have a worse initiator than both Trynd and Warwick, unless your third player was *another* carry, in which case you have more problems than figuring out which one of you guys needs to be the sacrificial lamb (hint: it's probably your team composition).

Joran

2010-05-17, 02:36 PM

any advice for playing nasus?

His build is really dependent on what you want to do and what the team you're facing is doing.

But basically:

1) Build some survivability, either through Warmog's or another damage reduction item. When you ult, you will be focus-fired. If you're the beefiest champion, then you really need to build survivability because people might expect you to tank, although Nasus isn't a particularly great tank.

2) You need some way to either slow your enemies or increase your speed. Wither is good, but generally does not keep the enemy close enough for you to finish them yourself before it wears off.

3) His AoE attack + innate lifesteal makes him an assume jungler with some levels.

I believe my friend usually builds him tanky and uses his ultimate to get enough AD to kill people. I fail at Nasus, so I can't really give advice outside of this.

Fawkes

2010-05-17, 02:36 PM

Anybody buy skins? I'm being mighty tempted by the Bullfight Alistar skin.

The Tryndamere skin that was on sale, and Pharoah Amumu.

Amumu and Rammus are my two favorites that I've played.

Poison_Fish

2010-05-17, 03:22 PM

any advice for playing nasus?

Last hit as much as possible with your special strike. Sheen procs with it. Trinity force is not a bad item on him. He can go either tanky or DPS.

Thrawn183

2010-05-17, 03:33 PM

I am loving Cho'gath so much it isn't even funny. I alternate playing him double warmogs vs AP each game, and while AP is easy, both are so much fun I can't let myself get nailed down to either one.

Whoever designed Cho'gath deserves a cookie.

Dallas-Dakota

2010-05-17, 04:14 PM

Yes, I want their babies.

Especially if that person thought up Gentleman Cho'gath too.

Shades of Gray

2010-05-17, 07:57 PM

I just started playing Nasus as well, building him as a tank. He just doesn't have enough damage that way to be useful, people just ignore Nasus. He does have his uses, but I get few kills and many assists.

New build idea (not tested)

1) Sapphire Crystal + Health Pot + Mana Pot.
2) Build Crystal into Tear of the Goddess.
3) Build Merc's or Tabi, depending on enemies. If there is a mix, go for berserker's.
4) Build Sheen.
5) Build Youmu's Ghostblade
6) Build Tear to Archangel's Staff
7) Build Sheen into Trinity Force

It give me a good pool of mana, decent AP, and okay attack damage. I might consider putting something defensive in there as well. Maybe Guardian Angel, Banshee, or Thornmail depending on the enemy team.

Thrawn183

2010-05-17, 08:42 PM

So I like posting screen shots of the end game review from my more interesting matches. I thought I would post 2 more showing my progress towards competency with Cho'gath.

A match in which we manage to win in spite of our Jax and Master Yi (just look at their item builds)

http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae156/Thrawn318/Maladies.jpg

And a match in which I narrowly saved my team from defeat by soloing all the enemies' inhibitors.

http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae156/Thrawn318/21.jpg

toasty

2010-05-17, 10:05 PM

Milskidasith

2010-05-17, 10:29 PM

Those look pretty awesome Thrawn, if I see you online again I'll try and grab a game with you. :smallbiggrin:

Also, is it just me, or does the sword of the occult and Soulstealer appear amazingly good for their cost?

If you can get 20 charges, yeah. They need about 6 just to break even with base items, though, which is pretty terrible compared to the midgame items you *could* be buying; they're generally not worth it unless you know you will be getting the kills.

Thrawn183

2010-05-17, 11:19 PM

My opinion on the "winmore" items is that they aren't really worth it. If you've got a build that's getting you lots of kills and not a lot of deaths, then they aren't needed, while if you've got the opposite, they're completely useless.

That's why I refer to them as "winmore" items. If you're already winning, they help you further stomp some team into the dirt, but if you aren't they don't really help at all.

Cute_Riolu

2010-05-17, 11:49 PM

Brother Oni

2010-05-18, 06:46 AM

toasty

2010-05-18, 06:52 AM

Twitch and Karthus are also known kill stealing offenders.

That said, unless the person has a stacking item, why do people get so worked up about kill stealing? The only reason I can think of is that it's another notch less on their epeen headboard.

Well, K/D ratio, along with the gold... but really, there is no good reason to worry about Kill-stealing if you ask me. At least in League of Legends, where you do get some gold for assists. In DotA, a hero can get fed nicely by stealing kills, go imba, and then take all the credit when its really not theirs.

Thrawn183

2010-05-18, 07:47 AM

I think it's something of a newbish attitude. Part of becoming more skilled is learning that in the end it doesn't matter how many hero kills you get as long as you're pushing lanes and destroying towers/inhibitors.

In fact, one thing I tell myself at the very beginning of every game is that it's ok to not have any kills by level six so long as I don't have any deaths either. I see so many people desperate to get kills that they throw themselves into 1v2's or 2v2's where their ally is out of mana or just plain out of position and not expecting it.

Erm... not claiming to be a pro or anything here. You can look at my W/L ratio and realize that. Though I totally blame it on playing too games where the enemy team had 3 level 30's and no one under 20 ever since I hit level 10. It's actually only recently (since my incredible losing streak) that I've started against playing lower level accounts.

Silverraptor

2010-05-18, 09:17 AM

I go in fully expecting to die alot and I just focus on protecting my team more then actual killing other champions. After I started doing that, my K/D ratio went way up. At one time I had more kills then both the Ryze and Teemo on my team combined when I was playing Rammus.

Fawkes

2010-05-18, 10:10 AM

I got 21 assists as Rammus one match, and I count that as being uber-helpful. When I play Rammus and Amumu, I'm all about the AoE and assists.

toasty

2010-05-18, 10:20 AM

This game isn't supposed to crash. -_-

Also, when it does that.... for some unexplainable reason my FPS goes WAAAY down, to the point where it appears I am lagging, but I'm actually not. Argh.

Poison_Fish

2010-05-18, 03:09 PM

Remember, the point of the game isn't getting kills. It's destroying the Nexus. Hence you actually see very little kills in much higher tier games and a lot more pushing/ganking to ensure pushing and destruction of towers.

On that note, it's time to place this again Thou shalt read this MFing thread (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=71443)

Thrawn183

2010-05-18, 10:54 PM

So in a continued spirit of a complete lack of hubris I'll post another end-game screenshot.

http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae156/Thrawn318/ChoForever.jpg

I'm kind of hoping to create a monster where everyone posts shots from either awesomely long games, games with crazy item builds (3 maladies, what?) or just where they did really well/poorly.

Still won't be as scary a monster as my AP Cho'gath, but then... what is?

Silverraptor

2010-05-18, 11:08 PM

Congrats on getting the most kills.

Milskidasith

2010-05-18, 11:52 PM

I haven't played LoL nearly enough recently (monster hunter and just cause are very addicting, as was my demo at HoN for a while, since I had about 50 heroes to try out).

Still, I remember some insane games, like back when Udyr was lolbroken and I was playing him... let's just say that "carry" hardly began to describe one of my matches.

I went center with Udyr, since my allies were, IIRC, Yi, Trynd, Twitch, and Veigar (not a good combo to start with), and twitch and veigar didn't want mid. So I'm tanking up, laning well, since I think it was another melee/an overagressive ranged person against me, so I bearstunned for harassment a lot.

When I went back with around 2k gold and a kill in my pocket, my allies had died a total of seven times. This was about... eh, eight minutes in.

So I get my sheen and boots, and I start going between lanes, and I get a couple ganks. My allies still keep dying, even when it's 2v1 in their lane after I killed somebody and brought another person to low-ish health with a bearstun + phoenix burn (with the previously more powerful sheen *and* more powerful phoenix and Udyr having better base everything, this hurt a *lot*). So it ends up being something like me 4/0 all my allies 0/4 or 1/6. Terrible stuff, the enemy guys are all only a bit below my level, this is before the EXP curve so my allies are giving up massive doses of EXP on each death, etc.

Then, they try to gank me. I was at mid, farming up for a bit since I had pushed somebody who was pushing mid out... three come in. At this point, I had my trinity force, and the three hitting me were two carries and a caster, IIRC. Caster dropped nearly instantly, I was at low health, so I flee past the tower, switching between bear and turtle... then switch to bear, and hit both of them once at the tower. They both get dropped down to low HP, so I keep switching between turtle and bear, and they stay greedy but barely don't kill me, and they both die.

I go back, I get the start of a bloodthirster. Get another gank, I've got a bloodthirster. It gets nearly fully charged, and at this point, I'm back to being three levels above the enemies, but my allies are still being stupid... so I just push the lane. I get all the way up to the mid inhib, all five enemies come running, and, long story short, my allies actually ran in, and at this point unless focused by all the enemies, I was taking no damage at all (super Udyr was really broken), so I wind up killing all five of them over time. In the end, the game wound up being about 20 kills on our side to forty deaths, with 18 or so of the kills being mine.

TL;DR: Back when Udyr was broken, I wound up, though a combination of luck, competence, and Udyr being broken (have I mentioned this enough?) basically 5v1ing the enemy team and winning because they wiped while I was basically just backdooring (which they could have done much faster even with resistance, in all honesty. I was about level 18, they were about level 15, my allies were in the 11~13 range).