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Milskidasith
2010-01-20, 12:37 AM
Seeing as the old discussion died, but there are waves of complaints between my friends, random guys in the game, and the official forum regarding the new patch, I figured I'd post a new thread and see if we can't make this one last.

So, first topic of discussion: Udyr. How broken is he, if you (like 90% of people), believe he is broken? If so, what do you think about him needs to be changed?

Personally, I think he's very powerful, but it's more a problem with trinity force and his passive being multiplicative (a bug) than anything. Simply put, Trinity Force was an expensive item that sort of helped guys with OK cooldowns who autoattacked, but the new champions all gain huge benefits from it because they all have super short CD abilities they cast a lot, especially Udyr. I think the Phoenix buffs were also a bit much, but just nerfing Trinity (procs less often?) and getting rid of the AP/damage on phoenix would probably put him back to his pre-patch "good, but not OP" levels.

EDIT: List of players

GITP name, LoL name:


US

Baron Corm, Baron Corm
Joran, ?
Milskidasith, Milskidasith
Moklok, KokoBWare
Poison Fish, Baron Von Flib
Rama, Nargus
toasty, toastymow
Sirroelivan, Sirroelivan
Zeful, Zeful
Dragonus45, Dragonus45
Master_Rahl22, Goltoth
Folytopo, Folytopo
Thethan, Thethan


Europe

Brother Oni, MarineHK4861
Dragor, Supernaturalist
Narazil, Narazil
Penthar, Malderon


Unknown

olelia, ?, ?
TheThan, ?, ?

Poison_Fish
2010-01-20, 01:51 AM
No major thoughts on Udyr as I surprisingly haven't seen much of him being played, but I've been enjoying Poppy.

Milskidasith
2010-01-20, 02:20 AM
No major thoughts on Udyr as I surprisingly haven't seen much of him being played, but I've been enjoying Poppy.

Weird... I've heard complaints of him being in every game. He's all the rage for people who like to cry OP with every patch (Poppy gets her share, because her passive makes nuker mages even less useful... poor Veigar, with all of his damage reduced to around 75% at best.)

Right now, I'm on a.... 15, I think, game hot streak with Udyr, one loss when my game crashed and I had to reconnect, which took me a good ten minutes. Udyr is a jungling god, and there's nothing quite like getting dragon at a few minutes in (I get it later than I could theoretically get it, but at the point I am guaranteed that I will survive, rather than get killed if I get bad luck with Madred's Razor procs).

Then I get my team to do baron 20 to 25 minutes in, and we roll faces for the rest of the game. Woo!

Joran
2010-01-22, 03:55 PM
I find Udyr to be hit or miss depending on the player. He's a pain in the butt to catch though.

I mostly play with a group of people who oddly enough don't favor carries or other DPS.

Our group usually is composed of three characters, a support character, and one DPS character. So we ran out a team featuring:

Alistar
Blitzcrank
Cho'gath
Sivir
Soraka

Alistar/Blitz pairings have to be one of the worst to fight in one of the duo lanes. I play the Alistar with flash, so at around level 3, I can just flash, pummel, then bull rush someone back to the Blitz to die. Alternatively, the Blitz can grab the person, stun him, Alistar then stuns, and punts backwards.

Inhuman Bot
2010-01-22, 05:01 PM
I've liked the game enough to play long enough two heroes, the armsmaster, and Cho'Goth.

Cho'Goth's pretty good, but I haven't palyed LoL lately.

Milskidasith
2010-01-23, 02:02 AM
I've liked the game enough to play long enough two heroes, the armsmaster, and Cho'Goth.

Cho'Goth's pretty good, but I haven't palyed LoL lately.

Cho'gath is still good. Jax is rather meh; he takes a lot of a beating from spellcasters, and though the general suggestion is to play him as a dodge tank, he really doesn't have the HP to stand up to even other physcarries abilities without being far more fed than they are, even if he dodges most attacks.

toasty
2010-01-23, 02:55 AM
So I've decided to Download LoL and give it a try, assuming there are good servers located in Asia (IE South or South East Asia).

Any of you guys play in that area? Also, what is a good hero for someone who likes playing Tanky/Strength heroes.

Edit: DotA strength heroes that is, of course.

Milskidasith
2010-01-23, 11:12 AM
So I've decided to Download LoL and give it a try, assuming there are good servers located in Asia (IE South or South East Asia).

Any of you guys play in that area? Also, what is a good hero for someone who likes playing Tanky/Strength heroes.

Edit: DotA strength heroes that is, of course.

A tank/physcarry? Udyr could work out, but he's not in the free lineup ATM. If you want a pure tank, though, Cho'Gath is pretty awesome.

toasty
2010-01-23, 11:01 PM
Out of curosity how do the servers work? I played the tutorial and a game with bots and I realized that something must have been sending information to a server because I was encountering lag. Serious lag though, which is a bit depressing, because its the amount of lag that makes you... die in a game where I almost never stop clicking.

Also, I don't like how I can't lose control of my hero. As weird as that may sound, because, in DotA I usually put my hero as Group 1 (CTRL+1) and then just spam the one button the entire game.

Actually... I spam a lot of stuff the entire game... which is appears to be something you don't need to do in LoL.

Edit: And so today I played my first real game and got very, very badly beaten. This is game is very different from dota... I have a feeling. Which is annoying, because I can play DotA quite well. However, the lag was pretty much a nonissue, which I'm very pleased about. Hopefully that will continue to be the case.

Astrella
2010-01-27, 12:01 PM
Right, nearly finished downloading. If anyone interested in giving me some assistance in my first game/games, I'll be online from around 19.00 GMT.

Edit: Name is "Sirroelivan".

Milskidasith
2010-01-27, 12:56 PM
Out of curosity how do the servers work? I played the tutorial and a game with bots and I realized that something must have been sending information to a server because I was encountering lag. Serious lag though, which is a bit depressing, because its the amount of lag that makes you... die in a game where I almost never stop clicking.

Also, I don't like how I can't lose control of my hero. As weird as that may sound, because, in DotA I usually put my hero as Group 1 (CTRL+1) and then just spam the one button the entire game.

Actually... I spam a lot of stuff the entire game... which is appears to be something you don't need to do in LoL.

Edit: And so today I played my first real game and got very, very badly beaten. This is game is very different from dota... I have a feeling. Which is annoying, because I can play DotA quite well. However, the lag was pretty much a nonissue, which I'm very pleased about. Hopefully that will continue to be the case.

Big differences are that pushing is a good thing, and spell cooldowns are short; while some heroes are fire and GTFO (Fiddle, with his cooldowns of 10+ seconds on all abilities) and you can harass them after they cast a spell for a decent amount, most casters can easily hit you with spells at any time, so you have to be cautious, and the best time to attack is usually right after they cast a CC ability on you, provided you still have the HP to do so.

Also, only last hitting is much less important, and attacking constantly (waiting to get last hits and not screw your income) is a valid strategy for anybody who is a strong early tower pusher and doesn't rely on ganks (Sivir, for instance, is great at pushing forward to the tower.)

What hero were you playing, by the way? Certain heroes in this free lineup are entirely useless; Warwick is worse than all other Physcarries, and Heimer only works if you build pure AP and go for rockets, because his turrets are craptastic.

toasty
2010-01-28, 06:00 AM
Ya, I did play Warwick, and I wasnít so impressed. But I canít really tell who is good and who is bad right now because wellÖ the game actually is turning out to be very different than DotA. I'm trying the ice archer girl now... but I think I might change again. Mainly because, for a carry, she seems pretty crap. It could be me though. farming is surprisingly harder, it seems.

I mean, you look at it and you have ultis, you have heroes, you have lanes and creeps and towers, neutrals and the river, etc. ButÖ its not the same thing.

The creeps operate very differently. You canít pull Ďem, you can block Ďem and there are too many (IMO ) archer guys.

The towers have gotten a HUGE boost as far as I can tell. Its hard to fight when the towers are constantly hitting your hero. And they DO DAMAGE!!!! Sure, getting hit by a tower is never fun in DotA, but by level 6-7 a lot of heroes can ignore the tower and go for the kill. It doesnít appear to be that way in this game.

The lack of chicken and TPs (well, not being able to TP to towers without a spell) is irksome. I liked never having to go to base because of Chicken. And having to walk to the end of the lane is boring. It also makes boots a lot more important.

Edit: i just played as Kayle and I had an actually somewhat decent team (we still lost -_- and Frost Archer girl left for no apparent reason. :smallfurious:). It was actually really fun.

Milskidasith
2010-01-28, 07:51 AM
Ya, I did play Warwick, and I wasnít so impressed. But I canít really tell who is good and who is bad right now because wellÖ the game actually is turning out to be very different than DotA. I'm trying the ice archer girl now... but I think I might change again. Mainly because, for a carry, she seems pretty crap. It could be me though. farming is surprisingly harder, it seems.

Ashe is actually one of the better physcarries in the game (constant slow), though a lot of times it's better, if you already have a strong amount of DPS on your team, to build her more as a support (more health items, less DPS, though usually just a banshee's is enough). She's also good at farming because her volley has one of the longest ranges in the game for a spammable spell, which lets her farm eve while pressured and take out entire waves of creeps at once (to play her well, max volley and frost shot... plentiful bounty is pretty much negligable, especially if you aren't farming well.)


The creeps operate very differently. You canít pull Ďem, you can block Ďem and there are too many (IMO ) archer guys.

Err... you can pull the creeps. If you are the first person they target, they'll keep attacking you, though it's fairly hard to keep them attacking you while there are other creeps around. It's a good thing, though, because it promotes agressive games, while pulling really... doesn't (since it removes creeps from being able to block tower shots.)

As for blocking them... I don't know what you mean by that. Also, as a tip, the towers and creeps will always shoot you if you attack an enemy champion.


The towers have gotten a HUGE boost as far as I can tell. Its hard to fight when the towers are constantly hitting your hero. And they DO DAMAGE!!!! Sure, getting hit by a tower is never fun in DotA, but by level 6-7 a lot of heroes can ignore the tower and go for the kill. It doesnít appear to be that way in this game.

Towerdiving is possible in this game, but it's usually not smart, and it's also usually better to have somebody gank the person at the tower so if they die it would be a "execution" (killed by tower) and nobody gets any benefits. Still, a lot of heroes can successfully towerdive very well; Cho'Gath can pretty much do it at level 6 onward, with a combination of rupture (for slow and knockup) and his ult, for example, and Udyr with a high turtle shield can ignore two and a half shots from a tower.


The lack of chicken and TPs (well, not being able to TP to towers without a spell) is irksome. I liked never having to go to base because of Chicken. And having to walk to the end of the lane is boring. It also makes boots a lot more important.

TP scrolls promoted more defensive play, because everybody would always get them (slowing cash flow) and it would take no time to get more people to defend a lane being pushed.


Edit: i just played as Kayle and I had an actually somewhat decent team (we still lost -_- and Frost Archer girl left for no apparent reason. :smallfurious:). It was actually really fun.

Kayle's good, but not really that much at low level play. She's great at higher levels just because of her ult, and the rest is pretty much secondary.

Astrella
2010-01-28, 09:27 AM
Right, tried the tutorial and a match with bots. The lack of a town portal item bothers me a bit. I'm a bit so/so on the graphics as well. I like the brush concept though.
The many ways you can customize your hero with the runes and summoner abilities is pretty nice as well. Is the impact that this has on matches between unupgraded heroes and heavily tooled heroes not to big though?

Wel, gonna try out a real match today, but I can certainly say it's very different from HoN, but interesting enough to put more time into it.

Edit: But first the new HoN patch. :smalltongue:

Astrella
2010-01-29, 06:22 AM
Right, just won a game as Kayle, 't was fun. Still need to get a bit used to the fact that there aren't any real phases in the game as far as I can tell. (compared to in HoN: laning with ganking - teamfights - pushing)

Could I get a bit of advice on what to work to for purchasing first? And how runes and such work precisely?

Joran
2010-01-29, 02:45 PM
Right, just won a game as Kayle, 't was fun. Still need to get a bit used to the fact that there aren't any real phases in the game as far as I can tell. (compared to in HoN: laning with ganking - teamfights - pushing)

Could I get a bit of advice on what to work to for purchasing first? And how runes and such work precisely?

It really depends on your hero.

http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=28809

Here's a pretty comprehensive list of guides, but they are really hit or miss on quality. For using your IP, I would use your first 3-4K of IP to buy heroes that you enjoy playing; that's huge. Afterwards, I'd wait until you're around level 20 before you start investing in runes.

Runes cost IP and are stored in your runebook. They give you various stat buffs + health, + ability power, + mana regen, etc. You get a rune slot every level and a quintessence slot every 10. There's three colors to runes; you can only fit a rune of that color into a like colored slot. Each color has a specific group of stats associated with it; runes of that stat in that color have a higher benefit that stats of a different color. So, something like Crit Chance runes are better in red, but it doesn't prevent you from buying all Crit Chance runes also in blue or yellow and just stacking them. Quintessences are monster runes, but also include benefits you can't get in regular runes, like +movement speed.

Runes come in tiers. You can buy tier 1 runes anytime, tier 2 runes from level 10+, and tier 3 runes level 20+. Personally, I'd wait until you get to level 20 so you can buy the best runes, but you can always rune out and then combine 5 runes of the same tier into one random one of a higher tier.

There's definitely phases in LoL, but it depends on your team. I've been in games when the laning phase was relatively short (everyone got to level 6 and grouped up) and games when the laning phase took forever. Afterwards, there's the teamfights + pushing until a winner. It's still possible to push during the laning phase with the proper lanemates. I've taken down towers within the 5 minute mark.

Milskidasith
2010-01-29, 02:52 PM
Right, just won a game as Kayle, 't was fun. Still need to get a bit used to the fact that there aren't any real phases in the game as far as I can tell. (compared to in HoN: laning with ganking - teamfights - pushing)

Could I get a bit of advice on what to work to for purchasing first? And how runes and such work precisely?

There are phases. You're just at noob island so much the people you are playing against have either never played (so they don't understand the five man push) or are utterly incompetent (so they're probably dead too much to figure it out.) There's still laning with ganks, five man teamfights, and pushes, and generally in "even" matches, one team aces the other and runs through and wins.

Astrella
2010-01-29, 05:31 PM
Ah, thanks for the explanation.

I'm probably gonna try another few games: I'm trying to get a few friends to try it out as well. (One also plays HoN, and we were planning to introduce another one, but due to lack of another betakey, and the fact that Lol's entry level seems to be easier, we're gonna try Lol. Since a dota-style game can be quite daunting the first time anyway.)

One more question though, how are game exactly hosted? On server, like HoN, or by the players themselves, like Warcraft? Since it took a rather long time for the game to actually start after the hero selection. (with players loading in seperately?)

Edit: I like HoN, but it can be such a drag at times. Especially when you have your own team raging at each other from five minutes in every second game. :smallannoyed:

Joran
2010-01-29, 06:17 PM
One more question though, how are game exactly hosted? On server, like HoN, or by the players themselves, like Warcraft? Since it took a rather long time for the game to actually start after the hero selection. (with players loading in seperately?)

Edit: I like HoN, but it can be such a drag at times. Especially when you have your own team raging at each other from five minutes in every second game. :smallannoyed:

I'd imagine Riot's own servers. LoL's community can be a bit annoying too, which is why playing with friends is much better than playing with randoms.

toasty
2010-01-29, 11:04 PM
There are phases. You're just at noob island so much the people you are playing against have either never played (so they don't understand the five man push) or are utterly incompetent (so they're probably dead too much to figure it out.) There's still laning with ganks, five man teamfights, and pushes, and generally in "even" matches, one team aces the other and runs through and wins.

Yes, I've noticed this. I played another game as Kayle (who I really like) and I realized that the players must not be that bright because I have yet to play game where the carry solos mids. Or anyone solos mid for that matter. -_-

@blocking creeps. Blocking creeps is a tactic where you put your heroes in front of the creeps and use a combination of Hold Position and Stop and Move to slow them from moving. The idea is the enemy creeps are closer to your tower which is good because that means its easier to harrass and deny (not necessarily last hit though, if the tower is hitting the creeps). The AI for the creeps in this game is much "better" I guess. But of course, better means harder to manipulate.

And I'm still not sure how the Tower AI works... does it wait till all the creeps are dead before hitting a hero who is also hitting the tower, or does it hit melee heroes before ranged creeps, like DotA?

Milskidasith
2010-01-29, 11:11 PM
@blocking creeps. Blocking creeps is a tactic where you put your heroes in front of the creeps and use a combination of Hold Position and Stop and Move to slow them from moving. The idea is the enemy creeps are closer to your tower which is good because that means its easier to harrass and deny (not necessarily last hit though, if the tower is hitting the creeps). The AI for the creeps in this game is much "better" I guess. But of course, better means harder to manipulate.

So it's another one of DotA's "tricks" where a bunch of complicated and non intuitive BS is praised as a feature, right? Good riddance to it, denying, orb-walking, and everything else that was completely non obvious to newbies and made the game that much harder to get into.


And I'm still not sure how the Tower AI works... does it wait till all the creeps are dead before hitting a hero who is also hitting the tower, or does it hit melee heroes before ranged creeps, like DotA?

The tower targets the first thing to come into range, and attacks it until it dies. It switches targets to a hero immediately if they attack an enemy hero; attacking the tower doesn't matter. I believe the targeting order is:

Champs attacking heroes
Champ drops (Shaco, Teemo)
Creeps
Champs not attacking heroes.

I don't think there is any specific targeting order on creeps, besides a preference (I think) for shooting the siege creeps. However, before the siege creep gets there one or two melee creeps will probably be shot to death because they entered the range and were "locked" first. Also, if you attack an enemy, leave the tower range, and re-enter, you won't be targeted (unless they get hit again, from a DoT or something.)

toasty
2010-01-30, 01:16 AM
So it's another one of DotA's "tricks" where a bunch of complicated and non intuitive BS is praised as a feature, right? Good riddance to it, denying, orb-walking, and everything else that was completely non obvious to newbies and made the game that much harder to get into.

I guess... I mean, when I learned to play DotA it was via LAN so its a lot easier to communicate and discuss things. I realize that DotA does have a very high learning curve (I've been trying to teach one of my friends... it hasn't been going so well). I wouldn't call Blocking creeps (or Denying, for that matter) a "feature" i'd call it a quirk of the system. I agree with LoL that Denying is stupid... but its funny coming into a game and then realizing that I'm trying to deny.

And having said that, I think orb walking was awesome. :smalltongue:

The tower targets the first thing to come into range, and attacks it until it dies. It switches targets to a hero immediately if they attack an enemy hero; attacking the tower doesn't matter. I believe the targeting order is:

I just played a game and it appears that the towers just wait till you attack a hero before targeting you, assuming there are creeps.

Also, I'm getting the hang of items now. The starting builds are nice, but I can tell they are not at all a "good" choice for all heroes.

Poison_Fish
2010-01-30, 04:27 AM
I like most of DotA's "It's not a bug, it's a feature" aspects. But really, they are bugs, and I won't deny that. I like the differences between DotA and LoL. I'll say again I absolutely despise HoN, I've been in the beta for awhile(and can give beta keys, if I feel like digging them up again), and play it every so often with friends. But I frankly don't like the design decisions by their team, such as certain heroes with multiple stuns, slows, disables and movement techs all in ones.

In my opinion, though, I think Orb Walking is a legitimately cool skill, as is animation canceling. These things take practice, even if they are only taking advantages of bugs in the AI(orb walking) or getting off spells quicker(animation canceling). Granted, I kind of see orb walking and animation canceling as fairly similar things in process. Move/shoot/move/shoot while keeping a minimum of standing still.

Astrella
2010-01-30, 05:41 AM
Yeah, some of S2's own heroes are just way of balance: like giving a Carry a blink ability making him very hard to gank without multiple stuns (Magebane) or giving a carry both a stun and an invisibility (Madman). And I won't begin about Forsaken Archer, Engineer or Deadwood during their OP periods.

Things are improving though, with them trying to make every hero as viable as the next. (With the improvements to Slither, Zephyr, Electrician, etc.)

About Lol though, I might have looked over this, but there aren't any Couriers to ferry items, right?

toasty
2010-01-30, 06:52 AM
I agree about orb-walking, its cool. :p And I do not believe LoL has a courier, which is something that irks me, but it makes sense, after a fashion.

Also, in defense of Orb Walking, I think the thing about any game is people will find "bugs" or interesting features and they will exploit them to the max. I remember reading a blog and this one guy, all of the sudden realized he (in an FPS game) was timing his rocket launcher shots based on the sounds a door made when it opened. He didn't see his enemy, he didn't know he was there, but see heard the door open, he fired, and he killed the guy.

The same type of stuff will happen in any game. Sure, DotA did have some odd quirks (I mean, lets be honest, just about most of the important techniques with creeps are bugs) but if you are playing a game with an evenly matched group its okay because your allies aren't gonna know about creep pulling or whatever. Yes, you can get into a mismatched game, but doesn't that happen in any game already?

I dunno, maybe DotA has a lot of weird little quirks that are important to do doing well, but I've found that to be the case in a lot of games anyways.

Edit: So... since we have this thread, I might as well post my username on LoL. I'm toastymow. Feel free to add me. :) I'm in Bangladesh (+6GMT) and mostly play in the Afternoons for me so I guess most of you guys would be asleep when i'm on but you never know.

Milskidasith
2010-01-31, 11:34 AM
I just played a game and it appears that the towers just wait till you attack a hero before targeting you, assuming there are creeps.


That is what I said... they attack the first thing to come into range (including creeps) until it dies, then switch targets. The only "immediate" switch comes if you attack an enemy hero (or they are hit by a DoT you caused, or they hit you while you have thornmail or Rammus's ability up so they take damage, or you do pretty much anything that causes damage to them).

Anyway, yes, you have to use the bugs in the game to play to win. I'm fine with that. I'm not going to not play DotA just because you have to deny or orb walk, much like I didn't return my copy of ME2 when a certain glitch caused me to go out of the map on the same mission three times before it finally didn't glitch. But I prefer LoL because all of that stuff is removed and it's balanced based on what's intuitive to the system, not based on bugs. Since it's balanced based on the original intent, not the bugs, it's much more newbie friendly.

Astrella
2010-01-31, 11:38 AM
That is what I said... they attack the first thing to come into range (including creeps) until it dies, then switch targets. The only "immediate" switch comes if you attack an enemy hero (or they are hit by a DoT you caused, or they hit you while you have thornmail or Rammus's ability up so they take damage, or you do pretty much anything that causes damage to them).

Anyway, yes, you have to use the bugs in the game to play to win. I'm fine with that. I'm not going to not play DotA just because you have to deny or orb walk, much like I didn't return my copy of ME2 when a certain glitch caused me to go out of the map on the same mission three times before it finally didn't glitch. But I prefer LoL because all of that stuff is removed and it's balanced based on what's intuitive to the system, not based on bugs. Since it's balanced based on the original intent, not the bugs, it's much more newbie friendly.

Well, you can hardly call mechanics like denying or orb walking still bugs, since they would have been removed a long time ago if they were. (They're mostly just consequences of working with the Warcraft Engine and the limits of the world editor. Just like disjointing of abilities when using a blink is a consequence of how blinks are handled in the world editor. I remember how much tricks and workarounds I had to use when mapping myself.)

Anyway, I'm enjoying both HoN and Lol at the moment. Bought Kayle, and have been playing around with Nunu and ehm, the girl with the big bazooka (can't remember the name at the moment.)

Milskidasith
2010-01-31, 11:53 AM
Well, you can hardly call mechanics like denying or orb walking still bugs, since they would have been removed a long time ago if they were. (They're mostly just consequences of working with the Warcraft Engine and the limits of the world editor. Just like disjointing of abilities when using a blink is a consequence of how blinks are handled in the world editor. I remember how much tricks and workarounds I had to use when mapping myself.)

No, they are bugs. End of story. Just because they were never removed doesn't mean they weren't bugs, nor does any explanation about how it's the engines fault, because the engine causing something to happen wrong is a bug. They were bugs, but they weren't fixed because people liked them, much like Rocket Jumping originally was, or any kind of animation cancelling.


Anyway, I'm enjoying both HoN and Lol at the moment. Bought Kayle, and have been playing around with Nunu and ehm, the girl with the big bazooka (can't remember the name at the moment.)

Tristana.

Baron Corm
2010-01-31, 11:59 AM
As for items, I tend to get Stark's Fervor and Black Cleaver first on any physical DPS champion. The armor reduction really is great, plus good lifesteal, damage, and attack speed bonuses. Then finish up with Infinity Edge/Phantom Dancer. Add in a Banshee's Veil or Frozen Mallet for survivability. And get Berserker's Greaves of course, early on. If you go back to town and can afford a +18% crit cloak or Zeal, get that pretty soon as well, without building the whole item. It will help you out.

The Bloodthirster is also a good option but a bit unreliable. Madred's Bloodrazor is also good against tanks. Against a champion with a lot of dodge, you can get a Sword of the Divine, and against healers or regenerators, get an Executioner's Calling.

For magical DPS, get an early Rod of Ages to keep you alive. Then move on to Frozen Heart/Soul Shroud/Void Staff/Sorcerer's Shoes/Zhonya's Ring/Archangel's Staff, depending on the enemy team and how well you're doing. Just look at all of those items, see what they do, and figure out how you can use them. You can get a Mejai's but I wouldn't really recommend it if you're new to the game.

On tanks it's a little bit harder. It depends more on the tank. You also need to adjust to who the power players are on the other team. For example, Malphite benefits a lot from armor, but you still shouldn't stack armor if they have mostly magical carries. And Rammus's passive works with armor, but the extra damage rarely matters much, so I get health on him first to synergize better with Defensive Curl (and Thornmail, Frozen Heart, etc later). On Cho'Gath, hybrid AP/tank items, like Rod of Ages, are great, since he gets great AP ratios. Mana Manipulator happens to be great on Alistar, because he has that spammable heal, so the mana regen lets him and his lane partner stay in lane forever, and it later turns into the tanky Soul Shroud. There is no real catch-all for tank builds.

You can also get Mercury's Treads/Ninja Tabi/Boots of Swiftness/Boots of Mobility, depending on the champion and situation. They all have their moments.

As your starting item, Doran's Shield (tank), Blade (physical DPS), or Ring (magical DPS) plus a health potion is a good catch-all. Sell the Doran's later on when you need gold or are running out of slots. If you're new to the game you might just want a Regrowth Pendant instead, and stay back so you don't die. If you feel comfortable without the health/regen item, you can get a Vampiric Scepter, Sapphire Crystal + Health Potion, or Amplifying Tome + Health Potion to get started on your build ASAP.

Certain unique heroes like Poppy or Gangplank also require their own unique builds... but I won't go into all of those, heh.

Astrella
2010-01-31, 12:14 PM
No, they are bugs. End of story. Just because they were never removed doesn't mean they weren't bugs, nor does any explanation about how it's the engines fault, because the engine causing something to happen wrong is a bug. They were bugs, but they weren't fixed because people liked them, much like Rocket Jumping originally was, or any kind of animation cancelling.

Denying isn't a bug by the way, since denying in the actual Warcraft game doesn't give any xp. Bugs are things that go wrong, not consequences of the engines limitations. Otherwise you could just go and call things like my pawn only being able to move one square in chess a bug.

Milskidasith
2010-01-31, 12:35 PM
Denying isn't a bug by the way, since denying in the actual Warcraft game doesn't give any xp. Bugs are things that go wrong, not consequences of the engines limitations. Otherwise you could just go and call things like my pawn only being able to move one square in chess a bug.

I believe an unintended feature being used in a way not intended because of the way the engine works is a bug. Or an exploit. Or a glitch. Whatever you want to call it, this isn't an argument about semantics. It's an unintended feature that hurts newbie friendliness and doesn't make sense, and I'm glad it's gone in LoL.

Baron Corm
2010-01-31, 01:04 PM
I believe an unintended feature being used in a way not intended because of the way the engine works is a bug. Or an exploit. Or a glitch. Whatever you want to call it, this isn't an argument about semantics. It's an unintended feature that hurts newbie friendliness and doesn't make sense, and I'm glad it's gone in LoL.

If they wanted to, the people who make DotA could change it, so it can't be unintended. It is used in the way it was intended because it works like that in regular WC3 maps. You deny the other hero experience the same way you do in DotA.

But I am also glad it is gone in LoL, for the reasons you stated as well as because I am lazy =P

Milskidasith
2010-01-31, 01:06 PM
If they wanted to, the people who make DotA could change it, so it can't be unintended. It is used in the way it was intended because it works like that in regular WC3 maps. You deny the other hero experience the same way you do in DotA.

No, it's easy to change unintended features. That's what's known as a patch, or a bugfix. Much like they patched, to give an example, League of Legends so that most skills don't give multiplicative attack speed increases (a bug) or how they will (hopefully) patch ranged neutral creeps so that if they are attacked and you leave, the other team can't find your location because they constantly repeat the attack animation in your direction.

Astrella
2010-01-31, 01:13 PM
No, it's easy to change unintended features. That's what's known as a patch, or a bugfix. Much like they patched, to give an example, League of Legends so that most skills don't give multiplicative attack speed increases (a bug) or how they will (hopefully) patch ranged neutral creeps so that if they are attacked and you leave, the other team can't find your location because they constantly repeat the attack animation in your direction.

They might have been unexpected at first. (I don't know enough of dota's developement history to know if denying was an actual game mechanic from the start) But now they are actual game mechanics, and can hardly be called bugs anymore. Heck, if they were bugs, then why would S2 (designers of HoN) have translated then to HoN as well? Especially since they don't have to deal with the old WC3 engine anymore.

Milskidasith
2010-01-31, 01:19 PM
They might have been unexpected at first. (I don't know enough of dota's developement history to know if denying was an actual game mechanic from the start) But now they are actual game mechanics, and can hardly be called bugs anymore. Heck, if they were bugs, then why would S2 (designers of HoN) have translated then to HoN as well? Especially since they don't have to deal with the old WC3 engine anymore.

Are you really this unaware of the game development process? A massive number of bugs are considered features by players and get added in to further games. A quick list:

Animation cancelling (most games, but for an absurd example, GunZ).
Any comboing in fighters (it was unintended for you to be able to combo your punch into a hadoken in SF2, but it was praised as a combo system and kept in all fighters from then on.)
Any form of rocket/grenade jumping (glitch in Quake, kept.)
Stacking units (SC1 glitch, being kept in in SC2, which actually required breaking the new engine and redoing it so you can stack mutalisks as the Zerg.)
Denying (DotA, brought to HoN, and never fixed in DotA).
Wall Jumping (Mario, originally a glitch in the first game)

Here's a big list: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AscendedGlitch

Seriously, if the community likes a bug, it's kept in, end of story. That doesn't mean it isn't a bug. HoN intentionally put in denying because they wanted to be as much like DotA as possible, which isn't exactly good when you consider that it's worse in most was, IMO. Even Demigod was better.

Astrella
2010-01-31, 01:28 PM
Are you really this unaware of the game development process? A massive number of bugs are considered features by players and get added in to further games. A quick list:

Animation cancelling (most games, but for an absurd example, GunZ).
Any comboing in fighters (it was unintended for you to be able to combo your punch into a hadoken in SF2, but it was praised as a combo system and kept in all fighters from then on.)
Any form of rocket/grenade jumping (glitch in Quake, kept.)
Stacking units (SC1 glitch, being kept in in SC2, which actually required breaking the new engine and redoing it so you can stack mutalisks as the Zerg.)
Denying (DotA, brought to HoN, and never fixed in DotA).
Wall Jumping (Mario, originally a glitch in the first game)

Here's a big list: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AscendedGlitch

Seriously, if the community likes a bug, it's kept in, end of story. That doesn't mean it isn't a bug. HoN intentionally put in denying because they wanted to be as much like DotA as possible, which isn't exactly good when you consider that it's worse in most was, IMO. Even Demigod was better.

Yes, all I said is that things like denying, animation canceling etc. have been bugs in the past, they are full game mechanics now. Besides, as I explained above, denying in Dota isn't a bug, seeing as an actual deny in Warcraft grants 0 XP, not like in Dota where you just get a reduced amount. (Meaning there's an actual trigger)

Anyways, I'm gonna go for a game or two when I've done the dishes, so if you're interested, we could match up?

Milskidasith
2010-01-31, 01:31 PM
Yes, all I said is that things like denying, animation canceling etc. have been bugs in the past, they are full game mechanics now. Besides, as I explained above, denying in Dota isn't a bug, seeing as an actual deny in Warcraft grants 0 XP, not like in Dota where you just get a reduced amount. (Meaning there's an actual trigger)

Stop ignoring my posts, please. You are arguing over semantics, which I already said I did not care for. They were still unintended bugs/glitches/features/exploits/whatever you want to call them, which is what I claimed, and good riddance to them.


Anyways, I'm gonna go for a game or two when I've done the dishes, so if you're interested, we could match up?

No, there's really no way I could have an enjoyable match with you because I would be bringing a newbie into a higher elo match (not good) or play a practice match, which, with my level, would mean I'd never get a game started unless I decided to play against a full team of level 30s premade.

Astrella
2010-01-31, 01:51 PM
No, there's really no way I could have an enjoyable match with you because I would be bringing a newbie into a higher elo match (not good) or play a practice match, which, with my level, would mean I'd never get a game started unless I decided to play against a full team of level 30s premade.

Fair enough.

Poison_Fish
2010-01-31, 03:39 PM
Speaking as (one of the few here) dota players who's been around for a long time, denying, animation canceling, orb walking, etc. are all unintended features. Hence, the "It's not a bug, it's a feature" (See: Apple computer and Microsoft over some of their interesting 'bugs' and were that quote comes from). I find them fine in dota, but I agree with the majority of LoL's dev team on it. It makes for a slower, more defensive game. There is a reason that one of the more popular basic strats in dota right now is 3 carry's 2 supports, rather then the all ganking or pushing team. That's a solid defensive strategy. LoL it can work differently, granted heroes and mechanics are different too.

Now, while denying could have easily been fixed, animation canceling is editable, orb walking is not. Orb walking is a consequence of the AI that can not be changed in the WC3 system.

Suedars
2010-01-31, 03:56 PM
Denying has been halfway fixed. When it was first discovered sometime around 5.60, it originally gave no experience. A few versions later, it was changed to give about 1/3 experience to ranged heroes and 1/2 to melee. Given that denying's current form was not something that unpredictably sprang up, and was actually intentionally added into the game, I don't see how you can claim it was a bug.

Baron Corm
2010-01-31, 04:00 PM
I'll play with you Sirro. And anyone else who wants to play. I'm getting online now. My summoner name is Baron Corm.

Astrella
2010-01-31, 04:12 PM
Right, coming back online.

Also, just bought Soraka. Amazing hero: Heal, Mana Replenish, Silence and Global Heal all in one hero? This I like. :smallsmile:

Baron Corm
2010-01-31, 04:17 PM
I notice you're from Belgium... you aren't using the European client, are you? Because then we can't play :smallbiggrin:

Astrella
2010-01-31, 04:20 PM
It seems I am. Since I can look up your stats, but you don't appear online when I add you.

Baron Corm
2010-01-31, 04:33 PM
Gahh don't look up my stats... before my recent streak I had a 10-game winning streak I swear :smalleek:. Records don't really matter anyway. The winning streak was due to bad matchmaking for the other team, heh. Very rarely a good match in this game. Anyway, yeah, there goes that idea...

Milskidasith
2010-01-31, 04:48 PM
Denying has been halfway fixed. When it was first discovered sometime around 5.60, it originally gave no experience. A few versions later, it was changed to give about 1/3 experience to ranged heroes and 1/2 to melee. Given that denying's current form was not something that unpredictably sprang up, and was actually intentionally added into the game, I don't see how you can claim it was a bug.

It was a bug. Claiming it wasn't is like claiming that wall jumping in SMB1 isn't a bug because SM64 had it as a feature.

Suedars
2010-01-31, 05:32 PM
It was a bug. Claiming it wasn't is like claiming that wall jumping in SMB1 isn't a bug because SM64 had it as a feature.

Sure, it was a bug back in 5.54. But to claim that it's a bug now rather than an intended aspect of the game is to claim that wall jumping in SM64 was a bug because it started off as one in SMB1.

Astrella
2010-01-31, 05:42 PM
A quick question: does Lol have any form of leaver protection? Since I haven't played a game yet where not at least one player on each team left after dieing early on or similar situations.

Suedars
2010-01-31, 05:49 PM
There isn't much to stop leavers. The only repercussions are that you don't get IP for the match, you lose your stay-streak IP bonus, and you get a leaver mark on your public profile. The first two do very little, since the IP you get from a loss (since most people won't leave when they're winning) is negligible, and losing your staying streak IP bonus only matters if you haven't left the last dozen games or so, so it doesn't do anything to deter those who commonly leave. Even getting a leaver mark won't matter if all you do is play random games through the match maker. The only time it might matter is when you're joining a team.

Once you start getting a number of wins and increase your ELO and get out of noob island you'll start seeing a lot less leavers though.

Milskidasith
2010-01-31, 05:54 PM
There isn't much to stop leavers. The only repercussions are that you don't get IP for the match, you lose your stay-streak IP bonus, and you get a leaver mark on your public profile. The first two do very little, since the IP you get from a loss (since most people won't leave when they're winning) is negligible, and losing your staying streak IP bonus only matters if you haven't left the last dozen games or so, so it doesn't do anything to deter those who commonly leave. Even getting a leaver mark won't matter if all you do is play random games through the match maker. The only time it might matter is when you're joining a team.

Once you start getting a number of wins and increase your ELO and get out of noob island you'll start seeing a lot less leavers though.

Leaving also drastically lowers your Elo, you don't get anything for the match, you lose your IP (as stated, which is fairly important if you want runes), puts marks on your profile, and you can't join another match until the one you left ends anyway, so there's no point to leaving.

Again, you did not mention the fact you can't even play until the match you left is over (you'll just reconnect to that one) which is a pretty huge anti-leaver penalty.

toasty
2010-02-02, 01:22 AM
So I'm getting the hang of item builds with different heroes, but I have a few questions:

Okay, with boots... how good are boots of speed? (the fastest ones). In DotA the only thing that prevented me from getting Travel on most heroes is Travel is damn expensive and I'd rather buy something else. Most people only get Treads/Phase anyways.

But, in LoL it appears that there are a lot more Movement speed items and furthermore Boots of Speed are much, much cheaper. Now, I realize for some heroes the extra speed isn't neccessary, but I was thinking... extra speed = better chasing/escaping... that's why you buy boots, so when people chase you, you can escape 'em. I don't really ever buy boots for the other bonuses (which is why I prefer Phase in DotA on a lot of heroes, Phase is faster than Treads). Anyways, my basic question is how does this work in LoL? Do most people buy boots of speed? Are the they worth it?

Also, for more specific builds, I've been playing Master Yi and NuNu a decent bit and I like them quite a bit. With Master Yi I've done the following build: That cup thing from the default build (Philospher's cup?), A life steal item (argh... I forget the name, you buy the knuckles and the Vampiric Scepter for it) and then mega damage/critical strike items. How does that work?

NuNu: no clue really. I've stuck with the default items but I think they don't get enough tanky stuff early on. He doesn't need a lot of mana (but he does need some, especially since I really like spamming spells with my heroes), so really a combination of tank/spell power items seems good. Suggestions? Again I prefer boots of speed.

Rama
2010-02-02, 07:17 AM
For yi I'll usually grab berserkers greaves over boots of speed; a bit slower, but the added attack speed is nice. Throw phantom dancer on that later plus his ultimate and you have plenty of speed to chase most anyone down.

Nunu I tend towards boots of speed, then ability power to up his ice damage (rod of ages, etc). That one's still a work in process for me though.

toasty
2010-02-02, 07:23 AM
Nunu I tend towards boots of speed, then ability power to up his ice damage (rod of ages, etc). That one's still a work in process for me though.

That seems sensible, but NuNu also seems like a hero who can work as a tank , so he should get some tanky items. I could fool around, but the servers were down for me today so didn't... though I'm looking forward to trying Gangplank. ESPECIALLY because I can listen to Pirate Metal when I do so. :smallbiggrin:

Also, this game needs a blink dagger. NuNu's ulti+Blink=win, but I guess we don't get a blink dagger. :smallfrown:

Joran
2010-02-02, 10:53 AM
That seems sensible, but NuNu also seems like a hero who can work as a tank , so he should get some tanky items. I could fool around, but the servers were down for me today so didn't... though I'm looking forward to trying Gangplank. ESPECIALLY because I can listen to Pirate Metal when I do so. :smallbiggrin:

Also, this game needs a blink dagger. NuNu's ulti+Blink=win, but I guess we don't get a blink dagger. :smallfrown:

NuNu isn't quite a tank; he doesn't really have a good initiator move or much disruption. He's more of an AoE+chaser. In fact, since your ultimate needs to channel, being the first one into a fight is a bad idea since they can just disrupt your channel.

Rod of Ages will give you a good amount of HP, along with that nice AP. Sorcerer's Shoes will give you the nice bit of magic penetration to deal even more damage; the 3 speed boots aren't needed since his snowball does a slow. NuNu should be built more like a caster than anything so his AoE ultimate and his snowball are much more effective.

I'm not sure what to get after that. Zhonya's Ring maybe? Void Staff?

Dragor
2010-02-02, 12:07 PM
I'm completely new to League of Legends, and having never played DOTA I only had a vague idea of what to expect. On my first practice game, I found it tough going, mainly because I felt like I wasn't sure what to buy for my summoner (I was using Tristrana). I started another game as Morgana and rocked though, because I just wanted to spam spells- so I just bought tonnes of Mana Regen kit and built up to better stuff.

I may try playing a tank of some sort now, because I've only played ranged so far.

Astrella
2010-02-02, 12:32 PM
I'm completely new to League of Legends, and having never played DOTA I only had a vague idea of what to expect. On my first practice game, I found it tough going, mainly because I felt like I wasn't sure what to buy for my summoner (I was using Tristrana). I started another game as Morgana and rocked though, because I just wanted to spam spells- so I just bought tonnes of Mana Regen kit and built up to better stuff.

I may try playing a tank of some sort now, because I've only played ranged so far.

Well, I've just started playing myself a few days ago, and I've just been buying the recommended items for each Hero with good effect.
Oh, seeing that you are from the UK, I assume you're playing on the European client? You can always add me if you want ("Sirroelivan") to play together sometime.

Milskidasith
2010-02-02, 12:36 PM
Also, this game needs a blink dagger. NuNu's ulti+Blink=win, but I guess we don't get a blink dagger. :smallfrown:

It's called flash.

Dragor
2010-02-02, 12:53 PM
Well, I've just started playing myself a few days ago, and I've just been buying the recommended items for each Hero with good effect.
Oh, seeing that you are from the UK, I assume you're playing on the European client? You can always add me if you want ("Sirroelivan") to play together sometime.

Sure, I'll do that after I've played this game :)

Joran
2010-02-02, 03:59 PM
It's called flash.

Or the person should try Fiddlesticks. His ultimate has a teleport, then an AoE damage aura. It's quite devastating against unaware teams.

P.S. New champions are available. Pantheon should have been the first voice activated champion. Yelling out "THIS IS SPARTA" over voice chat should do additional damage.

toasty
2010-02-03, 08:05 AM
A note to newbies, I'll explain to you how I learned DotA: I got an AI map and I played as Dwarven Sniper against Easy AIs for about 8 months. :smallbiggrin: I was NOOB.

However, the second I started playing with real people via LAN I improved a lot. Basically, they taught me how to play more than one hero. As well as How to work in a team, which is 90% about the game. This leads into my next, and perhaps the most important rule in this game: you are only as good as your team is. A good team really, really helps.

I think, one of the hardest problems with games like DotA/LoL is that they are TEAM games. You will lose a game because 1 or 2 plays who didn't do the tutorial or forgot the YOU DONT GET HIT BY TOWER Rule. (If you have done this, I forgive you. But remember: towers really hurt). Of course, victory is all the sweeter when you win as a team, IMO, because you did it together.

Anyways, I played Gangplank. As expected, I loved him. I'm not entirely sure how the whole Scurvy thing works, but his ulti and 1st spell are pretty awesome. Now I just need to make a build with him. Now i just need to get the IP to buy him, which is a lot... really.

Milskidasith
2010-02-03, 12:44 PM
Anyways, I played Gangplank. As expected, I loved him. I'm not entirely sure how the whole Scurvy thing works, but his ulti and 1st spell are pretty awesome. Now I just need to make a build with him. Now i just need to get the IP to buy him, which is a lot... really.


Gangplank *requires* runes to be good. Against competent people, an unruned GP is a minor hassle at best, but a fully specced out level 30 summoner is hitting off 150 damage crit parrlay's from level one about 25-30% of the time. Scurvy is just a "fun" debuff, it does nothing (I think it *may* be required for remove scurvy to work with coding, but it doesn't do anything on it's own.)

Anyway, the best GP build is probably Parrlay, a point in remove scurvy (for the cleanse), and then all parrlay and his ult. If upgrading remove scurvy lowers the cooldown, then you upgrade that, otherwise upgrade his other thing. Spam parrlay, get +crit % items and an infinity edge, and go to town. It doesn't hurt he got buffed this patch.

Poison_Fish
2010-02-03, 02:40 PM
Gangplank *requires* runes to be good. Against competent people, an unruned GP is a minor hassle at best, but a fully specced out level 30 summoner is hitting off 150 damage crit parrlay's from level one about 25-30% of the time. Scurvy is just a "fun" debuff, it does nothing (I think it *may* be required for remove scurvy to work with coding, but it doesn't do anything on it's own.)

Anyway, the best GP build is probably Parrlay, a point in remove scurvy (for the cleanse), and then all parrlay and his ult. If upgrading remove scurvy lowers the cooldown, then you upgrade that, otherwise upgrade his other thing. Spam parrlay, get +crit % items and an infinity edge, and go to town. It doesn't hurt he got buffed this patch.

Don't forget, his grog soaked blade now works with Parrlay, so your doing additional damage when you pop someone.

The way I build him is damage items and an infinity edge. You don't really need attack speed, but an infinity edge + extra damage is amazing. On top of that, a sheen which you'll eventually turn into a trinity force isn't a bad idea. That's because the sheen (100% extra damage on next attack you do on spell cast) works with parrlay in one go. In that, casting the spell, and being a physical attack, your essentially doing way more damage with each shot (Yes, it stacks in one spell cast). Getting a few Avarice blades is also not a bad early game item (Money + crit).

Edit: Also, for those interested in HoN keys, I'm seemingly unable to get my account password recovered. So there is a delay.

Astrella
2010-02-03, 03:05 PM
Edit: Also, for those interested in HoN keys, I'm seemingly unable to get my account password recovered. So there is a delay.

Well, I no longer need one. Got one somewhere else for my friend.

Milskidasith
2010-02-03, 11:12 PM
Important new info: Gragas is pretty terrible. At best, he's an annoying harasser with barrel roll if your opponents are melee and sit back at the turret, and lategame his ult doesn't even help in teamfights like it should because it *might* knock one person close to you guys for a kill, but it's more likely to just send all your enemies in random directions out of gank range.

Poison_Fish
2010-02-04, 11:26 AM
On the other hand, Pantheon isn't such a bad carry. His ult is actually fairly lame in terms of it's huge cool down and impossibility to aim, but I see him as a new back dooring king.

Dragor
2010-02-04, 11:32 AM
Anyone playing Sivir? I quite like her playstyle, but I'm still a bit of a noob so I wanted to know what other Playgrounders thought about her. I'd brave the official forums, but... you know... hostile communities and all that. Riot seem very happy to help new players (what with their new incentives for people helping newbies and all) but I don't want to brave it.

Milskidasith
2010-02-04, 12:39 PM
Anyone playing Sivir? I quite like her playstyle, but I'm still a bit of a noob so I wanted to know what other Playgrounders thought about her. I'd brave the official forums, but... you know... hostile communities and all that. Riot seem very happy to help new players (what with their new incentives for people helping newbies and all) but I don't want to brave it.

The official forums are fine.

Sivir's the #1 champion in the game. She's literally ranked top tier on every (serious) list in existence (not lying there), right up there with TF. Her ult is absurd in teamfights, as is her massive sustained AoE damage with ricochet, her spammable spellshield for laning, and her powerful and long ranged boomerang toss.

Anyway, Pantheon is good, but... back dooring king? I don't see that, so much. Udyr and Twitch are both far better at backdooring (Turtle shield is better than the "block every four hits" for absorbing tower blows, trinity procs make Udyr hit harder, and Twitch can just kill towers from out of range), and it's arguable an attack damage TF would do better (Spam pick a card, most of the time you'll get 3-5 blue cards before you toss a red, with trinity or at least sheen procs on each of them.)

His ult's a teleport, no more, no less. Anybody who uses it to do anything besides teleport near (not directly into) a teamfight, or hit a lone backdoor guy (blowing up the creep wave so he can't keep killing the tower) is probably bad... I was in a match where I lost mostly because instead of fighting in teamfights, he jumped in to the middle of the enemies, lightly hurting them and immediately dying.

Dragor
2010-02-04, 01:01 PM
Sivir's that good? Huh. I'm going to feel bad for playing her now. :smalltongue: I just won a match with Alistar, who I used because Sivir had been taken. I actually found him quite fun- headbutting people near my turrets and then using Fortify was hilarious.

Astrella
2010-02-04, 01:04 PM
I'm really enjoying playing Zilean lately. Besides having a great model, his abilities are very versatile as well.

Small question: What determines the cost in IP points of the different heroes? Has it got to do with how long they have been released or is there some other factor?

Milskidasith
2010-02-04, 01:04 PM
Sivir's that good? Huh. I'm going to feel bad for playing her now. :smalltongue: I just won a match with Alistar, who I used because Sivir had been taken. I actually found him quite fun- headbutting people near my turrets and then using Fortify was hilarious.

Alistar is the best support in the game, bar none. He's an amazing tank with great team initiation ability and a great laning heal.

Sivir is good, but not amazing unless you have an organized team. If you do, starks + her ult = everybody having an absurd attack speed buff (can't remember ATM, but I think it's like 70% total) with a big move speed buff. It makes everybody into a carry for a while, pretty much.

Combine it with Taric's ult, and your entire team is getting a huge (again, can't recall the exact numbers, but I think it was like 60%) damage buff, with a huge attack and movespeed debuff, with lifesteal and aura healing. It's nuts. The only better ult combination in the game might be Amumu + Nunu, because that forces the entire enemy team to get hit by the entirety of Nunu's ult, which will leave your carries to kill them (one time, as a Sivir, while I had my ult up, my ricochets caused Nunu to get a quintuple kill ace with this combination. It was insane.)


I'm really enjoying playing Zilean lately. Besides having a great model, his abilities are very versatile as well.

Small question: What determines the cost in IP points of the different heroes? Has it got to do with how long they have been released or is there some other factor?

IP costs are based (roughly) on difficulty of play. Most straightforward carries and tanks are 450 (Sivir, Yi, Nunu, Ashe), while complex characters with odd moves cost more (Pantheon's ult and Gragas's weirdness [crappiness] put them at 3150, Udyr's stance dancing puts him there as well, and most of the 6100 champs have very strange mechanics [aniva with her skillshots and her doubled damage while affected with one of her debuffs, Karthus with his spammable farming spell, Twitch because most people are too stupid to abuse his range, Corki because he has a massive variety of builds, etc.)

Not all the champs are put where they should be; TF is 1350 despite being tricky enough to be 6100, Twitch really isn't complex enough to be 6100, Tristana could probably be knocked down to 450 because there isn't too much complex about her, etc.

Joran
2010-02-04, 02:09 PM
Sivir's that good? Huh. I'm going to feel bad for playing her now. :smalltongue: I just won a match with Alistar, who I used because Sivir had been taken. I actually found him quite fun- headbutting people near my turrets and then using Fortify was hilarious.

Also, you can wade into enemies, punt one back to your team, and still walk out mostly alive. Once you hit level 12, Flash is an integral spell for Alistar.

I've found that I like "forgiving" characters; characters I can screw up and still survive most of the time. So my main is Alistar, my secondary is Poppy, although I'm starting to really like Nasus a great deal.

None of my friends play the really powerful carries just yet. One of my friends is going to try to play Corki once everyone gets the free Corki unlock, but no one is playing Shaco or Twitch or Twisted Fate...

Dragor
2010-02-04, 02:50 PM
Speaking of Shaco, I just had the most amazing game against a Shaco player called GoldEagle. The game went on for a solid hour, with everyone levelled up and kitted out to the mask.

Both of our teams towers (except for their one defending the Nexus) were all out for the count, and respawn times were huge. This Shaco player was a complete.... argh. An evil genius, to say the least. Everywhere I went, I'd get shivved easily. At the end (they managed to get us all dead and just take out our Nexus in the end), I had to congratulate him for one of the best games of LoL I've had so far.

It was close, it was heart-pumping, it was frustrating. I love this game so much already.

Milskidasith
2010-02-04, 02:59 PM
Speaking of Shaco, I just had the most amazing game against a Shaco player called GoldEagle. The game went on for a solid hour, with everyone levelled up and kitted out to the mask.

Both of our teams towers (except for their one defending the Nexus) were all out for the count, and respawn times were huge. This Shaco player was a complete.... argh. An evil genius, to say the least. Everywhere I went, I'd get shivved easily. At the end (they managed to get us all dead and just take out our Nexus in the end), I had to congratulate him for one of the best games of LoL I've had so far.

It was close, it was heart-pumping, it was frustrating. I love this game so much already.

If he took an hour to win, he wasn't doing well. If you were getting ganked by an invisible shaco, you needed wards and/or oracles, especially if you had all those items.

Just to give you an idea, with a creep nearby a shaco that isn't fed can ult and kill a tower in a few seconds; taking an hour to push means that neither team was doing well at all, because by that point a single carry can suicide to blow up a tower easily (if they even die; most won't.)

Not to disparage your "awesome" game, but I'm just saying, what you said was awesome seemed to be "I didn't buy wards, and neither team wanted to push."

Dragor
2010-02-04, 03:26 PM
If he took an hour to win, he wasn't doing well. If you were getting ganked by an invisible shaco, you needed wards and/or oracles, especially if you had all those items.

Just to give you an idea, with a creep nearby a shaco that isn't fed can ult and kill a tower in a few seconds; taking an hour to push means that neither team was doing well at all, because by that point a single carry can suicide to blow up a tower easily (if they even die; most won't.)

Not to disparage your "awesome" game, but I'm just saying, what you said was awesome seemed to be "I didn't buy wards, and neither team wanted to push."

HE was playing well, but some of his team was dead weight, and they were letting him down by being cautious. We were both pushing a lot, but they neglected their top and bottom lanes significantly.

But yeah, it was fun, at least. All the games I'd played before that had been steamrolls for or against my team. It was the first time I'd gotten to 18.

Astrella
2010-02-04, 03:43 PM
Dragor, I've been trying to add you, but I'm not sure if I'm finding the right person. All I'm finding by the name Dragor is a Lvl 14, which strikes me as a bit odd, since you mentioned you only started playing a few days ago.

Poison_Fish
2010-02-04, 04:55 PM
If you want to add me, I am Baron Von Flib, though I am only level 12. Most of my friends are higher level, but I admit I'm slowly climbing up because I 1. Play DotA more often with friends and 2. I am a busy student. The friends I play LoL with are all mostly 30's. Granted, matchmaking is a little messed up.

Dragor
2010-02-04, 06:02 PM
Dragor, I've been trying to add you, but I'm not sure if I'm finding the right person. All I'm finding by the name Dragor is a Lvl 14, which strikes me as a bit odd, since you mentioned you only started playing a few days ago.

That's weird, because I sent you a friend request. :smallconfused: My username is wombomtom (argh, don't ask, I've used it since I was 12) and my Summoner Profile name is Supernaturalist. Try searching them? Sorry for the confusion, Dragor was taken and I should've mentioned that.

Astrella
2010-02-04, 06:12 PM
Right, sent you an invite just now.

Astrella
2010-02-05, 08:16 AM
Just tried out Alistair, very fun hero. Pulverizing, moving behind the enemy and then headbutting them towards your team. :smallbiggrin:

olelia
2010-02-05, 08:51 AM
Its all fun until you have to fight team forced movement.

Blitzcrank, Allistar, Tristana, Janna, and Singed...My hero bounced around so many times..the horror...I think I heard a tilt noise at some point.

Milskidasith
2010-02-05, 10:11 PM
The problem is more that the enemy team all had either massive slows or hard stuns, not so much the "move you around" thing.

toasty
2010-02-07, 07:05 AM
Important new info: Gragas is pretty terrible. At best, he's an annoying harasser with barrel roll if your opponents are melee and sit back at the turret, and lategame his ult doesn't even help in teamfights like it should because it *might* knock one person close to you guys for a kill, but it's more likely to just send all your enemies in random directions out of gank range.

I learned this the hard way. :smallfurious:

I just added a bunch of you. I'm toastymow if I hadn't already told you. My current location will make gaming impossible mostly (unless you like staying up all night or getting up really early. Or are in Europe or something... I'm still not sure how the server system works). But once I move back to the US I have a feeling I won't just be "that guy who is always offline"

Well I'm off to finish homework before I can play another game.

TheThan
2010-02-07, 07:23 PM
I play LOL mostly with my friends in team play. I usually run Ashe or Alistar though Iíll occasionally play kayle and nunu. Unfortunately the servers are down. Since they tried to hotfix the double casting bug theyíve been having problems with their client so theyíre probably working on that.

Thereís like seven of us, so we have a rather large assortment of teams we can build, depending on whoís online or up for a game.

Milskidasith
2010-02-07, 07:41 PM
My account no longer seems to work on the forums, and I can't recover my password. I am still able to play the game, though, or was before the servers went down.

toasty
2010-02-08, 07:20 AM
Heroes to buy from this week: Alistair and Gangplank. Alistair as soon as possible and Gangplank at a later date when I have a full rune book.

Right now my plan is to buy 1-2 heroes every week until I have a comfortable level of heroes and can pretty much play whoever I want. Then I'll focus on Runes.

Milskidasith
2010-02-08, 12:51 PM
Heroes to buy from this week: Alistair and Gangplank. Alistair as soon as possible and Gangplank at a later date when I have a full rune book.

Right now my plan is to buy 1-2 heroes every week until I have a comfortable level of heroes and can pretty much play whoever I want. Then I'll focus on Runes.

You should focus on runes first and get heroes later. At the very least, get a "generic" runebook (Health quints, dodge yellows, magic pen reds, and either flat mana, flat mana regen, or mana regen per level blues) which will work for all characters, and then go with champions; runes provide a pretty huge boost.

Astrella
2010-02-08, 01:16 PM
You should focus on runes first and get heroes later. At the very least, get a "generic" runebook (Health quints, dodge yellows, magic pen reds, and either flat mana, flat mana regen, or mana regen per level blues) which will work for all characters, and then go with champions; runes provide a pretty huge boost.

Oh, thanks for the tips. (Though they weren't directed at me)
I've been just building all health per level expect for reds where I took magic penetration.

On another note, Lol has got me completely converted. Haven't played HoN in a week. :smallsmile:

Milskidasith
2010-02-08, 01:53 PM
Oh, thanks for the tips. (Though they weren't directed at me)
I've been just building all health per level expect for reds where I took magic penetration.

On another note, Lol has got me completely converted. Haven't played HoN in a week. :smallsmile:

Health per level is *bad.* The flat health helps out heaps early, where it saves you a hit or two when getting chased and makes you look like a much less appealing target (4 bars compared to five or six with T3 health quints is a huge difference), while health per level only really gets effective at the point the enemy kills you in two seconds no matter what. Health per level just isn't effective in any situation.

Astrella
2010-02-08, 02:00 PM
Well, switched it around to your recommendations.
Got lucky with the rune combiner and got a tier two seal of dodge.
Is there a certain mechanism behind rune combining or is it random?

Milskidasith
2010-02-08, 02:29 PM
Well, switched it around to your recommendations.
Got lucky with the rune combiner and got a tier two seal of dodge.
Is there a certain mechanism behind rune combining or is it random?

It's totally random.

You really shouldn't buy runes at all until T3 runes; it's not worth the IP sunk into them. They're somewhat useful, sure, so a full T1 page isn't a complete loss (it's about three-four runes behind on your T3 page, though), but T2 runes are not worth buying. I found out the hard way.

EDIT: I wonder how well a 1v1 match on the fun that is Twisted Treeline would work. It's not exactly a well balanced map for 1v1, but it would be a fun way to play with other playgrounders without the hassle of crazily inaccurate (or more crazily inaccurate) Elo rankings and such for normal matches or premades where everybody leaves because some of us are level 30.

Granted, there would be balance problems (Udyr would be king, no doubt, and I happen to own him) but hey, it's worth a shot.

Joran
2010-02-08, 10:14 PM
Health per level is *bad.* The flat health helps out heaps early, where it saves you a hit or two when getting chased and makes you look like a much less appealing target (4 bars compared to five or six with T3 health quints is a huge difference), while health per level only really gets effective at the point the enemy kills you in two seconds no matter what. Health per level just isn't effective in any situation.

I'm with you on flat health quints; they're flat out better. However, I find the health per level seals to be better; they equalize with the flats at level 5, which is early enough for it to be worthwhile.

Since I play mostly tanky melee characters, I went with an armor penetration + health rune build.

toasty
2010-02-08, 10:27 PM
So basically, what i should do is save all my IPs until I can get Tier 3 Runes? Because at the rate I've been leveling that is going to be a LONG time from now. :smalltongue:

Poison_Fish
2010-02-08, 11:35 PM
Pretty much, and buy heroes you like.

Joran
2010-02-08, 11:40 PM
So basically, what i should do is save all my IPs until I can get Tier 3 Runes? Because at the rate I've been leveling that is going to be a LONG time from now. :smalltongue:

Yeah, basically until level 20. It's a long slog, but I got there with 50 wins and 45 losses with a few practice games here and there.

Play every day and get your win and it's a significant IP and EXP boost.

toasty
2010-02-08, 11:52 PM
Yeah, basically until level 20. It's a long slog, but I got there with 50 wins and 45 losses with a few practice games here and there.

Play every day and get your win and it's a significant IP and EXP boost.

My problem is I usually only have time for 1 game a day, if that. And I often lose. Its dumb luck, but it seems my team always gets stuck with the leaver. The last game we won because, basically, the other team had a leaver.

*sigh* how long before I get rid of all the n00bs who leave all the time?:smallmad:

Milskidasith
2010-02-09, 12:32 AM
My problem is I usually only have time for 1 game a day, if that. And I often lose. Its dumb luck, but it seems my team always gets stuck with the leaver. The last game we won because, basically, the other team had a leaver.

*sigh* how long before I get rid of all the n00bs who leave all the time?:smallmad:

Wait for a patch where they release a significantly broken hero. Proceed to kick ass with said hero. Enjoy the Elo boost and rising to the realms of competent players.

Basically, that's how I left noob island; I was about 90/85 because I was A: usually playing a tank, which helps only if your team is good, so it's a coinflip and B: paired with dumb people. Picked up Udyr... went 100 and 85 before losing. Now my record with him is 43/18 and I'm playing with good people, and I'm also doing well with Sivir and Ashe. I need to pick a noncarry to play as one of these days. >_>

Sophismata
2010-02-09, 01:53 AM
Now, while denying could have easily been fixed, animation canceling is editable, orb walking is not. Orb walking is a consequence of the AI that can not be changed in the WC3 system.

Just wanted to chime in and say that this is a lie. Orb walking works in DotA because most DotA programming is lazy :). It is one of the easier 'bugs' to fix, should the desire to do so ever occur.

Dragor
2010-02-09, 03:08 AM
Argh, had a power cut last night while in the middle of an OK game, my second as Ashe. I feel really guilty for leaving my teammates stuck in the mud. :smallfrown:

I just can't seem to win a game at the moment. Nearly everyone I've played as a Gangplank being fed massively by one inept player, he hits 18, rocks fall everyone dies. It's making me feel worse and worse at the game and I'm enjoying it less, because I just can't get any enjoyment out of constantly getting rolled. And I fuggin' hate Gangplank with a passion now. :smallmad:

Rama
2010-02-09, 07:03 AM
The only way I've really been able to get past the rage-quitters and feeders has been to put together a premade team. I have two people I usually play with because our times are similar, and my win-loss record is much better with them than without. And when we do end up with an idiot, we still have a chance because we can actually coordinate and have fairly complementary characters.

My suggestion would be to set a time for people here to get on and team up. I'm always down for a game; I'm US east coast, usually online 8-10 pm during weeks. My user is Nargus, and my mains are Cho'gath and Blitzcrank; although I also play Teemo, Veigar, Nunu, or Mundo on occasion. Been trying out Shaco some lately as well, but I'm still working out the kinks with my play with him.

Astrella
2010-02-09, 07:14 AM
I'm always up for a game with a fellow Giantip'er as well. (Acount name is Sirroelivan) I'm 21-15 at the moment I believe, but only because I've been winning nearly all my games I've been playing with Twisted Fate lately.
I can play most heroes I like to think, but I've got the most experience with Sivir, Zilean, Alistair and Twisted Fate.

Really enjoying Twisted Fate at the moment. Still need to practise a bit more on getting a yellow card more often though.

Oh, and a question about starting items. Is it better to get a cheap item or to get a few mana and health potions? I've mostly been following the recommended item builds lately, with a few alterations depending on what the team needs. (like frozen mallet when we haven't got much stuns / slows, etc.)

Milskidasith
2010-02-09, 07:17 AM
I'm always up for a game with a fellow Giantip'er as well. (Acount name is Sirroelivan) I'm 21-15 at the moment I believe, but only because I've been winning nearly all my games I've been playing with Twisted Fate lately.
I can play most heroes I like to think, but I've got the most experience with Sivir, Zilean, Alistair and Twisted Fate.

Really enjoying Twisted Fate at the moment. Still need to practise a bit more on getting a yellow card more often though.

Oh, and a question about starting items. Is it better to get a cheap item or to get a few mana and health potions? I've mostly been following the recommended item builds lately, with a few alterations depending on what the team needs. (like frozen mallet when we haven't got much stuns / slows, etc.)

Grab an item and two health potions. That's generally enough to keep you going until you can go back for more items.

toasty
2010-02-09, 07:50 AM
Actually, starting items are a rather different thing when comparing to dota. But basically, what i've been doing is I've bought a starting item then taken a Health potion. I might swap the potion for a mana one if I ever play a mana heavy hero, but that hasn't happened yet.

Rama
2010-02-09, 12:19 PM
It depends. For my casters I tend to buy meki pendant and 2 healing potions off the bat. If I'm in a tank, I usually grab regrowth pendant as a building piece for my warmogs, and no potions.

I'll be on tonight probably around 7:30-8:00 pm EST if anyone wants to play a game.

Brother Oni
2010-02-09, 01:27 PM
Since we've started to get more people together, perhaps we should start compiling a list of GITP players?

We're going to have to separate it by Euro/US servers though, as Sirroelivan and I'm on the Euro server and everybody else seems to be US.

Milskidasith
2010-02-09, 01:59 PM
If somebody could compile the list for me (I'm short on time right now) I could edit it in to the first post.

Brother Oni
2010-02-09, 06:13 PM
Right here's the list of people who appear to be currently playing the game and who've posted in this thread (my apologies if I've missed you off the list).

I'm missing some details that I couldn't find from your posts and if there's anything wrong or you want to be taken off the list, just say.

Details are: GITP Name, LoL Name, Server

Milskidasith, ?, ?
Poison Fish, Baron Von Flib, US
Joran, ?, US
toasty, toastymow, US?
Sirroelivan, Sirroelivan, Euro
Baron Corm, Baron Corm, US
Rama, Nargus, US
Dragor, Supernaturalist, Euro
olelia, ?, ?
TheThan, ?, ?
Brother Oni, MarineHK4861, Euro

Rama
2010-02-09, 06:17 PM
GITP Forum Name - LOL Name

US (assumed if has not specified)
Dragor - Supernaturalist
toasty - toastymow
Poison_Fish - Baron Von Flib
Baron Corm - Baron Corm
Rama - Nargus

European
Sirroelivan - Sirroelivan
Brother Oni - ?

Unidentified posters (have not included LOL account name
Milskidasith - ?
Joran - ?
Anatharon - ?
Suedars - ?
olelia - ?
TheThan - ?

Damnit, ninja'd :p

Milskidasith
2010-02-09, 06:24 PM
Added in the list to the front page.

Moklok
2010-02-09, 07:57 PM
My account name is KokoBWare on US servers.

I love me some Alistar :smallsmile:

toasty
2010-02-09, 08:42 PM
FYI I have no clue what server I'm on. I downloaded the game from the LoL website and I am in Bangladesh, not the US... but the game never told me which server I'm on. :p

Brother Oni
2010-02-10, 10:38 AM
I know you're in Bangladesh, but I assumed you were on the US server. :smallbiggrin:

How the server works is simple - it depends on which client you downloaded and which site you registered on.

If you downloaded and registered on the Europe site (http://www.lol-europe.com/), you're on the European server (Ireland to be exact).

If you downloaded and registered on the US site (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/), you're on the US server.

Astrella
2010-02-10, 10:42 AM
Odd, I seem to remember downloading from the US site, which would explain why I can't seem to add you, Brother Oni. Which is odd in itself since I have been able to add Dragor, who is on the Europe Server. :smallconfused:

Narazil
2010-02-10, 10:54 AM
I play European. Account name should be Narazil.


Apparently, I'm an awesome Shaco.

Astrella
2010-02-10, 11:03 AM
I play European. Account name should be Narazil.


Apparently, I'm an awesome Shaco.

Right, sent you an invite. (Seeing as the servers are just back online.)

Brother Oni
2010-02-10, 11:38 AM
Odd, I seem to remember downloading from the US site, which would explain why I can't seem to add you, Brother Oni. Which is odd in itself since I have been able to add Dragor, who is on the Europe Server. :smallconfused:

Unless Dragor thinks he's on the European server but is in actual fact, on the US server. Which means the only person I get to play with is Narazil.

Edit: Except I don't seem to be able to add Narazil. :smallsigh:

toasty
2010-02-10, 12:20 PM
I know you're in Bangladesh, but I assumed you were on the US server. :smallbiggrin:

How the server works is simple - it depends on which client you downloaded and which site you registered on.

If you downloaded and registered on the Europe site (http://www.lol-europe.com/), you're on the European server (Ireland to be exact).

If you downloaded and registered on the US site (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/), you're on the US server.

I'm on the US server then. Thanks for clarifying this. Also, I thought us Americans could play with the Europeans NOW. like, we couldnt before, but they changed that? :smallconfused:

Narazil
2010-02-10, 12:39 PM
I'm.. Not sure whether Oni and I are on US or EU.
We're on the same server, at least. And I'm 80% sure Sirroelivan is on the other.

Milskidasith
2010-02-10, 12:50 PM
OK, I'm too confused to add any of you to the list as a guaranteed server at this point.

Also, what summoner level are you? Shaco is a pubstomper, and, though I'm not implying you are bad, you could have easily gotten the "awesome shaco" comments because you bought, say, a mejai's and got 20 stacks on feeders.

As another note, people seem to notice high damage burst champions as being more OP than the support champions that help them out; nobody ever complains about my Sivir, but I'm on a 10 game win streak with her.

Brother Oni
2010-02-10, 01:11 PM
I'm.. Not sure whether Oni and I are on US or EU.
We're on the same server, at least. And I'm 80% sure Sirroelivan is on the other.

We're on the same server (EU). Narazil's LoL name is Xanos, which why we couldn't add him before. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: I'm also only level 14. I've got a 34-24-1, with the leave resulting from my early days before I got the hang of the game mechanics.

Don't worry, I got my share of losses too - 14 game losing streak... :smallsigh:

Astrella
2010-02-10, 01:11 PM
I'm.. Not sure whether Oni and I are on US or EU.
We're on the same server, at least. And I'm 80% sure Sirroelivan is on the other.

Hmm, I didn't get the "didn't find summoner" message though when I tried to add you which I did get when I tried to add Oni...

Well, I'm online now in case anyone's interested in playing together.

Edit: Yay, new free heroes.

Brother Oni
2010-02-10, 01:20 PM
I can't add you either, Sirroelivan. Something weird's going on...

Astrella
2010-02-10, 02:04 PM
Well, I just googled League of Legends when I wanted to try it out. The US-site is the first one to pop up, so I'm 99% certain I'm on the US client.

Brother Oni
2010-02-10, 04:07 PM
I've found a nice easy way to see which server you're on. While in the lobby, click on one of the news links and see which website it takes you to. If it takes you to http://www.lol-europe.com/, you're on the European server. :smallbiggrin:

Astrella
2010-02-10, 04:34 PM
US-server then apparently.

Hrmm, I hated Thunderbringer's (Zeus) ult in HoN and I hate Karthus ult in Lol already. :smallyuk:

Poison_Fish
2010-02-10, 05:36 PM
US-server then apparently.

Hrmm, I hated Thunderbringer's (Zeus) ult in HoN and I hate Karthus ult in Lol already. :smallyuk:

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/uncle_loknar2/rage/rage3.gif

Milskidasith
2010-02-10, 05:48 PM
Karthus is easy to block... I'd say about a third of the cast of LoL has some way of blocking themselves from getting hit (in lane heal/spell shield/turtle shield/morgona's shield/undying rage/kayle ult/something), and the other option is to just get MR and laugh at him. Buy Merc's treads (they're great) and his ult drops from killing you at 200/350/500 before AP to around three quarters of that. Then do the important thing and go B or heal somehow when you are at low HP.

Also, have whoever is laning against karthus have a spammable stun... once as Udyr I was laning against a karthus, he popped his ult from behind the tower, and I just charged him in bear and stopped the channeling. Multiple times, in fact.

Poison_Fish
2010-02-10, 05:51 PM
Karthus is easy to block... I'd say about a third of the cast of LoL has some way of blocking themselves from getting hit (in lane heal/spell shield/turtle shield/morgona's shield/undying rage/kayle ult/something), and the other option is to just get MR and laugh at him. Buy Merc's treads (they're great) and his ult drops from killing you at 200/350/500 before AP to around three quarters of that. Then do the important thing and go B or heal somehow when you are at low HP.

Also, have whoever is laning against karthus have a spammable stun... once as Udyr I was laning against a karthus, he popped his ult from behind the tower, and I just charged him in bear and stopped the channeling. Multiple times, in fact.

That's pretty much the primary difference between Karth's ult and Zeus's. Zeus is instant, so you need to be quick. Karth is both channeled and you can see it coming, you have a bit more reaction time.

That being said, I've seen some awesome dodges of Zeus's ult.

Astrella
2010-02-11, 04:24 PM
Hmm, how do you guys play Heimerdinger? I've tried minimizing cooldown a few games, but I feel he might just be better not leveling his turrets at the beginning (maybe one lvl for two free wards?) and just trying to maximize ability power.

Milskidasith
2010-02-11, 05:37 PM
Hmm, how do you guys play Heimerdinger? I've tried minimizing cooldown a few games, but I feel he might just be better not leveling his turrets at the beginning (maybe one lvl for two free wards?) and just trying to maximize ability power.

You don't. He's a bad champion. He's only good counterintuitively by grabbing his ult, 10% CDR from masteries, 10% from a fiend folio or something, and spamming rockets and grenade with turrets as an occasional buff/a giant ward at baron.

He changes the way the game flows way too much for a beginner to have a chance when using him, and he's not fun to play with or against, either.

Brother Oni
2010-02-12, 04:59 AM
I'm guessing gameplay at higher ELOs is much different from the lowly ranking that I'm at.

In most games I play against a decent Heimerdinger, the player spams turrets across a lane like a wall and plays very defensively.
It's quite effective unless someone has a ranged AoE ability as charging into that mess to take out the turrets is usually fatal.


I'm starting to have a fondness for Aniva, but I can't quite get the hang of playing her - the guides tend to focus on builds rather than actually how to use her and since we can't save games to replay and study later, I can't watch any good Aniva players (as I'm usually too busy dying to them).
Anybody got any tips?

Narazil
2010-02-12, 06:59 AM
Man. Servers should have been up 10 minutes ago. What am I going to do now? :smallannoyed:




I'm starting to have a fondness for Aniva, but I can't quite get the hang of playing her - the guides tend to focus on builds rather than actually how to use her and since we can't save games to replay and study later, I can't watch any good Aniva players (as I'm usually too busy dying to them).
Anybody got any tips?
Assuming you mean Anivia. I found that playing bold once/if you're jumped really helps. Your DPS is pretty staggering, and I managed to finish off would-be assassins (Shaco, Twitch, Teemo off the top of my head) by simply keeping pressure on them, instead of trying to run.
Though I never really figured out how to use the wall. It's good for keeping melee out of your face for a few seconds, and for covering your escape, but other than that..



How do you guys feel about Teemo? I tried her a few times, and I like the play style. Some guides advice Attack Speed focus, others Ability Power. I tried both, and while 650+450 damage Shrooms are fun, I liked Attack Speed a little better - but it might have been my opponents.

Brother Oni
2010-02-12, 07:41 AM
Man. Servers should have been up 10 minutes ago. What am I going to do now? :smallannoyed:


Read the LoL forums about optimal builds and flame random people who disagree with your assessment of champions? :smallbiggrin:




Assuming you mean Anivia. I found that playing bold once/if you're jumped really helps. Your DPS is pretty staggering, and I managed to finish off would-be assassins (Shaco, Twitch, Teemo off the top of my head) by simply keeping pressure on them, instead of trying to run.
Though I never really figured out how to use the wall. It's good for keeping melee out of your face for a few seconds, and for covering your escape, but other than that..


I try and use the wall to block people from escaping or splitting up pairs of champions so my side can gank one first.
Note the key word is try - I haven't been able to pull it off yet (I usually end up dropping it just short in front rather than behind).

Also bear in mind that the wall doesn't stop everything. I was once being chased by Tryndamere through the jungle and dropped a wall behind me, he just used that spinning ability to go through it and killed me.:smallannoyed:



How do you guys feel about Teemo? I tried her a few times, and I like the play style. Some guides advice Attack Speed focus, others Ability Power. I tried both, and while 650+450 damage Shrooms are fun, I liked Attack Speed a little better - but it might have been my opponents.

Use and abuse that poison dart power. If that doesn't trigger ragequits on the other side at our ELO, I don't know what will. :smallbiggrin:

Narazil
2010-02-12, 07:50 AM
Use and abuse that poison dart power. If that doesn't trigger ragequits on the other side at our ELO, I don't know what will. :smallbiggrin:
Seriously? I mean, it's good, but it's not that great. I stacked 450 or so ability power and threw it around like Stan from Monkey Island, and it really failed to impress me.

Brother Oni
2010-02-12, 07:55 AM
That's the ability of Teemo's that kills me most of the time (those mushrooms are just annoying) and Teemo is the only champion I've seen named in the practice games titles, usually along the lines of "No Teemo!".

Narazil
2010-02-12, 07:58 AM
I actually raked up a nice kill score with the mushrooms. Its not impossible to trick your opponent into running into one while chasing you, or placing one prior to the battle at your opponents most likely escape route.

Joran
2010-02-12, 10:30 AM
I'm guessing gameplay at higher ELOs is much different from the lowly ranking that I'm at.

In most games I play against a decent Heimerdinger, the player spams turrets across a lane like a wall and plays very defensively.
It's quite effective unless someone has a ranged AoE ability as charging into that mess to take out the turrets is usually fatal.


It only works against bad teams with bad team compositions. One good ranged character and all the turrets die; Tristana can outrange his turrets at a pretty low level. Likewise, if the Heimer puts himself in a bad position and dies, all his turrets die with him.

Good Heimers (yes, I've seen them), stack AP and abuse the heck out of rockets and grenades. They also place turrets in key locations; the places where skilled teams place wards, instead of stacking them in one location. It'll give your team good information as well as a nasty surprise for anyone traveling alone.

However, Heimer is generally considered one of the worst champions, along with poor Warwick.

Astrella
2010-02-12, 11:48 AM
I'm probably just being my stupid self, but I can't get Flash to work...
Whenever I use it, it just pops onto cooldown without actually doing anything. Is there a range restriction or something similar? Can anyone enlighten me?

Joran
2010-02-12, 12:00 PM
I'm probably just being my stupid self, but I can't get Flash to work...
Whenever I use it, it just pops onto cooldown without actually doing anything. Is there a range restriction or something similar? Can anyone enlighten me?

Flash works by flashing you in the direction and placement of your cursor. So, if your cursor is close to your hero, you'll poof and not go anywhere. If your cursor is beyond the range of flash, it'll teleport you in the direction of the cursor but only to the maximum range.

Also, if your cursor is off the map, occasionally, I'll get a casting circle around my character showing the range but it won't go off.

It does take some practice, but after awhile, you'll miss not having flash.

Poison_Fish
2010-02-12, 12:44 PM
Flash works by flashing you in the direction and placement of your cursor. So, if your cursor is close to your hero, you'll poof and not go anywhere. If your cursor is beyond the range of flash, it'll teleport you in the direction of the cursor but only to the maximum range.

Also, if your cursor is off the map, occasionally, I'll get a casting circle around my character showing the range but it won't go off.

It does take some practice, but after awhile, you'll miss not having flash.

Flash is like blink dagger, except it's free, shorter range, longer cool down. Yet you want it on every character.

Honestly, I usually have flash as part of almost any character I am playing.

On that note, I'm wondering if blitzcrank can still do his rocket grab/flash to extend it's range and really pull people into the tower.

Milskidasith
2010-02-12, 01:04 PM
Flash is like blink dagger, except it's free, shorter range, longer cool down. Yet you want it on every character.

Honestly, I usually have flash as part of almost any character I am playing.

On that note, I'm wondering if blitzcrank can still do his rocket grab/flash to extend it's range and really pull people into the tower.

I dunno. I know that if you flash while being pulled by BC you end up where you get flashed and negate the pull (not the stun, though) which really hurts his combo, but flash hurts everybody.

Heimer is only useful at low elos where you can't get your lanemate to help you blow up the towers. If he's mid, then you just ignore his towers and farm, because you're always going to be the better carry for your team (unless you are, like, Warwick, or Eve, but why the hell would they be mid?). The problem is he has no real ganking potential, ability to push, or effective damage at mid (unless he stacks AP, which he can't do with 475 starting gold, so he'll have to leave at some poitn); all he's good for at mid is not dying and not letting your tower drop. In a lane, he's only good for AP rocket and grenade spam, because turrets are easily killed with two people focusing it. The only good Heimer turret use I've seen lategame is somebody who set up a nest at Baron, which made it *impossible* for the other team to ever grab it without sending all of their team in there.

Against bad players, however, turrets wind up being easy to get killed by because they think the damage will be trivial, and in lane people are too stupid to work with their partner to blow up the turrets.

Joran
2010-02-12, 01:29 PM
Flash is like blink dagger, except it's free, shorter range, longer cool down. Yet you want it on every character.

Honestly, I usually have flash as part of almost any character I am playing.

On that note, I'm wondering if blitzcrank can still do his rocket grab/flash to extend it's range and really pull people into the tower.

I'll ask my friend to try it; he mains Blitzcrank and probably has the execution to try to pull it off.

Normally, he wouldn't need to resort to such tricks though; we normally pair up Blitzcrank and Alistar to very scary results, so a quick headbutt after a pull will put the enemy in tower range.

Milskidasith
2010-02-12, 02:10 PM
I'll ask my friend to try it; he mains Blitzcrank and probably has the execution to try to pull it off.

Normally, he wouldn't need to resort to such tricks though; we normally pair up Blitzcrank and Alistar to very scary results, so a quick headbutt after a pull will put the enemy in tower range.

Alistar is pretty absurd, seeing as he has a two second AoE stun on a not that short CD and Headbutt. He's definitely the best tank in the game.

Joran
2010-02-12, 02:42 PM
Alistar is pretty absurd, seeing as he has a two second AoE stun on a not that short CD and Headbutt. He's definitely the best tank in the game.

Also, has excellent mitigation with his ultimate, which reduces damage by 75%. His AoE heal also helps in pushes. One technique I picked up along the way was using the AoE stun as a pushing tool later in the game. With 3+ ranks in the stun, he'll reduce most minions to about a 1/5 health, which makes them easy pickings.

Such good disruption and survivability, I love him so. I find that one thing that really helps me with him is his large character model. I can always find where I am in the middle of a fight, which I can't always do with a smaller model like Tristana.

P.S. Scary team composition we put together. Once again, we tend to prefer tankier teams.

Blitzcrank (DPS build) + Alistar: Dual Lane
Fiddlesticks + Cho'gath: Dual Lane (with Fiddlesticks jungling at level 3)
Tristana or Corki: Middle Lane

2 silences, 2 AoE stuns, 2 single target stuns. Normally two melee characters can be harassed by ranged champions, but Blitzcrank's grab and both of us packing flash makes ranged characters run scared.

Narazil
2010-02-12, 03:04 PM
I just tried a mana/AP Ryze. It was brutal. Seriously, the bouncing ball plus ulti? Quadruple kill. Charge-spear-thing was dealing 600-700 damage easy in late game, with less than 5 seconds cooldown.

Poison_Fish
2010-02-12, 03:16 PM
+ a heal for whoever he is babysitting. Svir Alistar is a very common strong lane combo.

Joran
2010-02-12, 03:38 PM
+ a heal for whoever he is babysitting. Svir Alistar is a very common strong lane combo.

I usually prefer laning with a person with a disable. I find that it gives Alistar more options for the early gank. For instance, with Blitzcrank, we can do the rocket grab, punch stun, AoE stun, headbutt combo or reverse the order with a flash, AoE stun, headbutt, punch stun, then rocket grab to finish them off.

With a carry with no disable, it's more reliant on Alistar flashing or ghosting into to pummel then headbutt back to the carry for a quick gank. With Sivir is it more of a farming strategy rather than a ganking strategy? I find with the level of opponent, they won't let me waltz right up to them and initiate the pummel, headbutt combo without using a summoner ability.

Whenever we play with a Sivir, we tend to put her in the middle, where her strong farming and pushing ability leads to an early tower destruction in both the middle lane and either a top or a bottom.

P.S. I feel like I'm around mid-ELO, but it's hard to tell. I wish I knew exactly how good my team is and if our experiences are the standard for "average dedicated players" or if we're scrubs. I really much doubt we're experts.

Poison_Fish
2010-02-12, 10:07 PM
It's more of a farming strategy + pushing. Since her ult pretty much helps take down towers. Svir is also great mid as well. Again, she's always been a high tier character.

Xalerwons
2010-02-15, 05:57 AM
I'm going to answer as many questions in this thread as I can in a concise post.


It was a bug. Claiming it wasn't is like claiming that wall jumping in SMB1 isn't a bug because SM64 had it as a feature.

Denying was not a bug. The consequences of denying was not forseen, but the developers were aware that denying is possible... since attacking your own or allied units is possible unless otherwise restricted. They knew it was possible, they just did not know it could be used as an advantageous tactic. The strategy was unintended (but later accepted), but the method & mechanic itself was known at concept.

Games/maps go through betas to find as many unintended interactions as possible as well as interactions that are known but not intuitive nor obviously positive. Stating something is a bug just because it was not conceptualized and programmed intentfully by a designer is foolhardy.

Rocket jumping was never a bug. You were meant to juggle/splash damage/push people with rockets. They just never thought it could be useful to propel themselves with it (not sure why, movement is key in any competitive game unless they specifically omit any and all methods of movement manipulation)


So basically, what i should do is save all my IPs until I can get Tier 3 Runes? Because at the rate I've been leveling that is going to be a LONG time from now. :smalltongue:

Tier 2 runes cost 20% of what Tier 3 runes cost and give 80% of the effect. It's far more economical to purchase tier 2 runes, but for those who need the best, tier 3 is obviously the way to go. Also, many people have purchased either the collector's edition or champion bundle and only have runes to purchase with their IP.


And I'm still not sure how the Tower AI works... does it wait till all the creeps are dead before hitting a hero who is also hitting the tower, or does it hit melee heroes before ranged creeps, like DotA?

Towers and creeps have the same AI and priority list, the only difference is that creep priority list updates every 3 seconds while the turret will keep attacking its target once locked. Also note that they will attack the first target within range first.

enemy champions attacking allied champions
creeps attacking turret/creeps
creeps

One exception is that if a champion engages an enemy creep with no other valid targets, the creep will engage the champion and continue to do so even if other champions/creeps enter its range so long as the champion continues to attack said creep.


Okay, with boots... how good are boots of speed? (the fastest ones). In DotA the only thing that prevented me from getting Travel on most heroes is Travel is damn expensive and I'd rather buy something else. Most people only get Treads/Phase anyways.


Boots of speed in this game are tier 1 boots which can be upgraded to a variety of tier 2 boots. Getting tier 1 boots is essential by the 10 minute mark, or you will be at severe disadvantage. The game is balance around players all buying 1 type of tier 2 boots. Also, the movement speed from boots do not stack, but their other effects do.

Higher movement speed enables you to run away, chase an enemy, assist in ganks faster, and allows you to dodge skill shots more easily.


Small question: What determines the cost in IP points of the different heroes? Has it got to do with how long they have been released or is there some other factor?

IP cost is determined by a combination of the potency of a champion as well as the difficulty to play him or her. This rule is not hard and fast and there are some exceptions such as Annie, Fiddlesticks, Twisted Fate, etc.


Hmm, how do you guys play Heimerdinger? I've tried minimizing cooldown a few games, but I feel he might just be better not leveling his turrets at the beginning (maybe one lvl for two free wards?) and just trying to maximize ability power.

He is very bad unless fed kills (but any champion is good at that point). You should be emphasizing his grenade for stun+blind and his rockets for damage. Turrets take too much time to set up and can be avoided. They are only useful in certain scenarios.... scenarios that will cause the enemy team to roam in a 5man squad to quickly kill you, removing all turrets.


I'm guessing gameplay at higher ELOs is much different from the lowly ranking that I'm at.

In most games I play against a decent Heimerdinger, the player spams turrets across a lane like a wall and plays very defensively.

Very much so. Some champions are more viable in low elo play and vice versa. Some of the best champions in high elo are not viable in low elo due to the required coordination of the team.


Flash is like blink dagger, except it's free, shorter range, longer cool down. Yet you want it on every character.

On that note, I'm wondering if blitzcrank can still do his rocket grab/flash to extend it's range and really pull people into the tower.

Flash cancels most incoming projectiles as well, much like Shaco's deceive. This is the strongest aspect of flash, as it can be used to utilized to negate an enemy's ultimate.

Blitzcrank can rocket grab and then flash to pull his target a greater distance than normal. This is usually unnecessary and subsequently a waste of a usage of Flash.

Team Composition
Generally you want 1 tank, 2 ranged physical damage carries, a mage (disabler), and a pusher/mage/intiator/support.

Champions can and will fill more than 1 role. All carries can push in the late game due to their high damage. All the good tanks can not only take a beating, but can also initiate well. Melee characters in this game are just not as good as their ranged counterparts (aside from tanks, because there simply exists no ranged tank yet) They are viable, but simply inferior to ranged champions.

Usually, if your team composition is not perfect, you can adjust your item build accordingly to accommodate. Healers/support champions are underpowered and unnecessary at the current time. (Kayle ult + carry or Morgana's black shield + aoe channel) are unique combinations that defy the rule.

Strengths and Weaknesses of Carries/Mages/Tanks

Teams heavy on carries will generally want to lane + gank for as long as possible as their contributions to team fights increase over time and items.

Mages and casters otoh scale with time and items, but not as well as carries, so it's in their favor to have as many skirmishes as possible, as early as possible. They tend to require access to all their skills to achieve their potential, while carries require just their auto attacks augmented by gear.

Tanks are good at all times of the game, so long as the team composition supports it (you don't want more than 1 tank.)

Also, ranged characters are superior to their melee counterparts for obvious reasons.

About LoL Phases

Also, LoL has phases, they are just not set in stone. Their duration is determined by team composition and team coordination.

In general though the following holds:
Levels 1-6 = laning (harassing and potentially killing enemy champions)
Levels 7-10 = pushing + laning
Levels 11-18 = team fight + pushing

Very few champions can push lanes while harassing well, but all can push a lane if there is no resistance. aka you killed the enemy champions or forced them to retreat and heal.

Usually, the team fight portion of the game is synonymous with organized pushing, because it is difficult to push a lane while the enemy is defending unless you outnumber them or it is 40-50 minutes late in the game when turrets do insignificant damage to tanks (less than 40 dps).

It's important to note that as soon as the enemy team begins to move as 1 unit, you are inherently forced to do the same, or you will be susceptible to a gank. (Note that you could break up to 2 groups of 2 & 3 and defend against 5 successfully given skillful play and that the enemy possesses no tank that can endure the damage of the turret for a prolonged period of time.)

Thus, team compositions that promote team fights (aoe heavy teams) tend to move as a coherent unit sooner in the game than say, 5 melee dpsers. Therefore, the team fight phase initiates as soon as it becomes advantageous for either team.

There are exceptions to the laning phase rule as well. Stealth characters often do not lane very long relative to the time they spend lurking for an easy mark, jungling for rune buffs (lizard/golem), or assisting in ganks + pushing a weak lane. Shaco is a very notable example of such a champion.

Interestingly enough, there is also a mini-phase before even the laning phase.

It is called the 'First Blood' phase aka First Boots phase (because it gives you 300 gold, usually enough to buy boots) :D

Usually, 2-5 champions usually hide in brush areas to quickly gain a 300-600 gold surplus for their team before returning to their lanes. Before the temporary removal of Promote, this was a key element of the 5 man Promote/Rally rush that skipped the laning phase altogether and just pushed.

High Tier Champions
Alright, that ends my explanation of the phases, and I'll answer whomever asked which champions are worth playing/buying (based on their viability in high-tier play as of 2/15/2010)

Healers
Soraka (Taric is usually superior, but both can be run in certain comps especially with the introduction of Spirit Visage.)
Taric (can also tank, but tanks phys damage better that magic)

Tanks
Rammus (best disable in the game [taunt] as it can only be removed by cleanse and is currently unaffected by tread boots)
Alistar (can also push and initiate, considered the best tank in the game)

Mages
Annie (can aoe stun and stun in general more frequently than any other champion in the game.)
Fiddlesticks (one of the longest disables [fear], and an aoe silence [darkwind], combined with his high damage aoe and flash, is one of the best team mages in the game.)

Support
Kayle (same as her sister Morgana, but with her ultimate)
Morgana (this is heavily team comp-related due to the way her Black Shield interacts with carries.)

Pushers
Sivir (can also be a carry, but as a secondary role)

Carries
Corki (best carry in the game due capability of massive aoe damage, -150 armor buff, innate escape ability, and best finisher [missile barrage against runners])
Tristiana (best auto attack carry in the game, also has innate EC effect against healers and also has an innate escape ability)
Twisted Fate (best champion in the game due to map awareness and ability to port to any location for assistance/ganks. Only carry in the game to have an aoe slow, a stun, 2 escape abilities, great farming ability)
Twitch (can stealth, and does the highest dps in the game against a clustered foe with his ultimate, Spray and Pray which is unaffected by blinds)

Initiators
Blitzcrank (arguably the best initiator if the other team is not stocked with Banshee's Veil. his overdrive > rocket grab > power fist > static field combo can kill or severely weaken any foe. Extremely versatile champion but weak on his lonesome)

Ellardin
2010-02-15, 11:21 AM
Well I started playing the game after I bought the collector's edition , and its a fun game , but it shows that I never played DOTA(only for the fact that you had to be 'pro' to enter most DOTA games , so finding a novice DOTA game was almost impossible .) I find that I am good playing assassins like Evelyn , however I think that's only because they are easy to play for begging players .

Ellardin727 here ! :smallcool:

Poison_Fish
2010-02-15, 12:33 PM
Well I started playing the game after I bought the collector's edition , and its a fun game , but it shows that I never played DOTA(only for the fact that you had to be 'pro' to enter most DOTA games , so finding a novice DOTA game was almost impossible .) I find that I am good playing assassins like Evelyn , however I think that's only because they are easy to play for begging players .

Ellardin727 here ! :smallcool:

Trust me, those weren't pro games.

Milskidasith
2010-02-15, 12:57 PM
Healers
Soraka (Taric is usually superior, but both can be run in certain comps especially with the introduction of Spirit Visage.)
Taric (can also tank, but tanks phys damage better that magic)

Tank Taric doesn't work (he's naturally squishy). In fact, *healer* taric doesn't work. Taric is useful as an aura... dog, to use the less than savory lingo of the game. Put a Frozen Heart and an Aegis on him, and then use mana regen. He's only really useful if you happen to have Sivir, because their ults combined is flat out absurd.



Tanks
Rammus (best disable in the game [taunt] as it can only be removed by cleanse and is currently unaffected by tread boots)
Alistar (can also push and initiate, considered the best tank in the game)


Uhh.. taunt can only be removed by cleanse isn't really a benefit. The same applies for all debuffs, unless taunt doesn't allow GP to use Remove Scurvy. Anyway, actually Rammus is tied with every other tank (save Gragas) for second place as the best tank. Taunt's cool, but so are AoE stuns (Cho; not a stun, but when you're knocked up you can't aim your skills or attack it works as well as one, and Amumu), and Singed has absurd lane control with poison... during teamfights, a well build hybrid (AP/tank... RoA equals extra HP from the bonus mana and sweet AP) can get about 200 DPS on anybody chasing just with poison. His slow is also great.)

Nasus is fairly nonthreatening as a tank... except the massive armor debuff when he uses Spirit Fire in a teamfight and the fact he will not die if he has his ult up (yeah... probably 120 DPS to each enemy and 200 to each enemy tank, with all of that being converted to bonus damage for him to lifesteal, is pretty insane.) Malphite has a powerful slow that also speeds him up, a powerful AoE, and a great ult for initiation. Rammus is not nearly the great tank you make him out to be.

Basically, if the game ever gets draft mode, Alistar is probably the #3 automatic ban behind Sivir and TF, and the rest of the tanks (save Gragas) are all viable. Well, Singed is a little weak, but the rest are fine. In fact, most are probably stronger than Rammus, because he's a one trick pony who gets hurt very hard by a Last Whisper or a Bloodrazor (which deals magic damage, which most Rammus's don't stack.) Get a bloodrazor and suddenly taunt means Rammus dies, not harasses you with his team.


Mages
Annie (can aoe stun and stun in general more frequently than any other champion in the game.)
Fiddlesticks (one of the longest disables [fear], and an aoe silence [darkwind], combined with his high damage aoe and flash, is one of the best team mages in the game.)

Annie's only got her AoE stun with Tibbers up; without it, she's not threatening at all because incinerate (the cone one; I think disintegrate is the now stupid looking single target shot) has such an absurdly small range it can't AoE stun. Not that Annie isn't the best mage; she is, but Alistar has more often AoE stuns, Amumu has his up not quite as often but not far away, and Udyr happens to have his stun up far more often than Annie (even in a teamfight, she can't stun everybody on the enemy team every five seconds). I'm not saying Annie's bad; she's great, but you are overplaying her as a character that can output constant damage when she's not amazingly useful against a smart team unless she has her ult (if Annie has her graphic and is approaching, stun her and run.)

Also, not having TF on here is... I don't know how he's not here. He's the most broken character in the game.


Support
Kayle (same as her sister Morgana, but with her ultimate)
Morgana (this is heavily team comp-related due to the way her Black Shield interacts with carries.)

Valid supporting champs. You're missing Anivia. She could go with either support or caster, depending on her build, but her positioning help and AoE slow to help your team out is pretty lovely.


Pushers
Sivir (can also be a carry, but as a secondary role)

Sivir is one of the best characters in the game, and built as a carry she works fine. Built as an aura dog she works fine as well, but unless your team is organized going as a carry with a starks works out great. Her AoE damage and creep farming is more than large enough to make up for her slightly lackluster base stats (still impressive... and still better than Ashe. Ashe needs some love.)


Carries
Corki (best carry in the game due capability of massive aoe damage, -150 armor buff, innate escape ability, and best finisher [missile barrage against runners])
Tristiana (best auto attack carry in the game, also has innate EC effect against healers and also has an innate escape ability)
Twisted Fate (best champion in the game due to map awareness and ability to port to any location for assistance/ganks. Only carry in the game to have an aoe slow, a stun, 2 escape abilities, great farming ability)
Twitch (can stealth, and does the highest dps in the game against a clustered foe with his ultimate, Spray and Pray which is unaffected by blinds)

Corki is amazing, yes, but how are you getting -150 armor? At rank 5 it's... 4 seconds, I think, a shot every half second, with -5 armor per shot. That's -40 armor. Even if you add in a Black Cleaver you can only get up to -100. Armor reduction occurs before anything else, so with -100 armor you % armor decrease and armor penetration items, if you had them, would be worthless (unless the enemy had 100+ armor to begin with.) Tristana is eh. Shaco's about as good, and Nidalee is better *and* can support other carries well. Tristana is very squishy and her escape mechanism is on a very long CD. Twitch is fine. TF is not nearly as good as he could be when built as a carry; he should be a mage, if only because getting absurd stacks on Mejai's is very easy with him.


Initiators
Blitzcrank (arguably the best initiator if the other team is not stocked with Banshee's Veil. his overdrive > rocket grab > power fist > static field combo can kill or severely weaken any foe. Extremely versatile champion but weak on his lonesome)
[/QUOTE]

Alistar, Fiddle, Malphite, Annie, and Amumu all have better initiation moves. Not that Blitz is bad, but there's a big difference between being a good initiator (them) and ganking somebody before the teamfight starts (Blitz). He also only really works on people who stay in spots they can get grabbed, which means that smart players don't have much trouble not getting grabbed except by ganks and in the thick of battle.

TheThan
2010-02-15, 04:33 PM
So ever since they gave everyone corki, Iíve been giving him a whirl. Turns out I really like him. Though I donít have the AP runes to make him super dangerous. Heís the only caster I play so it might be a while before I do so.

I run two accounts, one is my main, almost level 30, and a second account (for playing with lowbie friends, really). My main is ďthethanĒ Iím US based.



Alistar is pretty absurd, seeing as he has a two second AoE stun on a not that short CD and Headbutt. He's definitely the best tank in the game.


Alistar is not absurd at all, heís one of my mains, and Iíll tell you his stun is glichy, and very short range. Compared to scionís ranged stun, its not super. He is great at crowd control, with the stun and the head butt.

As a tank, alistar can absorb a whole heck of a lot of damage, but he really canít hurt anyone so eventually people just ignore him. Compared to blizcrank and scion, which you canít ignore because they can and do kill people (scion is pretty ridiculous if you have a partially competent player and out right scary if you have a good player). As a tank, you have to force people to pay attention to you and waste resources (abilities) trying to kill you, so your squishy team mates donít get targeted and squashed. I find alistar later game cannot do that, early game they will because everyone fears the stun, untill they realize it only works about half the time.

Milskidasith
2010-02-15, 04:49 PM
So ever since they gave everyone corki, Iíve been giving him a whirl. Turns out I really like him. Though I donít have the AP runes to make him super dangerous. Heís the only caster I play so it might be a while before I do so.

Corki's a physcarry. He is not a caster. Gatling gun and +damage items make him a great support with a huge -armor debuff to enemies and good AoE damage, and the +10% true damage on attacks makes him threatening even to tanks. He's the only top tier pure carry in the game, unless you count Sivir as a pure carry and not more of a support on steroids/off carry.


Alistar is not absurd at all, heís one of my mains, and Iíll tell you his stun is glichy, and very short range. Compared to scionís ranged stun, its not super. He is great at crowd control, with the stun and the head butt.

That's the point... he has a two second AoE stun (which is *not* glitchy at all) and a great positioning move. He wins teamfights. He's top tier for a reason, and no other tank is ever picked competitively ecause they cannot compare to him.


As a tank, alistar can absorb a whole heck of a lot of damage, but he really canít hurt anyone so eventually people just ignore him.

You are playing tanks wrong if you think damage is what they are about. They are about control. Alistar is control. If left alone, he'll keep his team healed up with roar during fights (creeps should be around) and he can initiate with a godlike stun, plus his ult means he can be an aura tank as oppossed to a full tank because it negates things so well anyway. If you leave him alone, all of his allies are much harder to kill *and* you're going to get AoE stunned again. He's the best tank in the game for forcing people to attack him or suffer.


Compared to blizcrank and scion, which you canít ignore because they can and do kill people (scion is pretty ridiculous if you have a partially competent player and out right scary if you have a good player).

It's sion. And he's not as good as Alistar, at all. He has a minor CC stun and an AoE damage effect that is much weaker if you just attack him. Just AoE in general will prevent it Being useful in a teamfight. Blitzcrank is *only* good against people not paying attention, because it's easy to dodge/be out of range of rocket grab if you aren't actively engaging enemies.


As a tank, you have to force people to pay attention to you and waste resources (abilities) trying to kill you, so your squishy team mates donít get targeted and squashed. I find alistar later game cannot do that, early game they will because everyone fears the stun, untill they realize it only works about half the time.

Hah. Really, I can't do anything but laugh at this. Alistar is a T1 god, and you're saying that T4/T3 (of five tiers of playable characters and "unplayably bad") off tanks with non AoE stuns compare to him. His stun is not bugged; I've played him multiple times and it has *never* been glitched. It targets where you are facing, sure, but it still hits. Also, note that it is blocked by banshee's, black shield, and spellshield, which may have been problems you thought were glitches (I don't know why, but seeing as it isn't bugged, I can't think of another explanation). Flash in, stun three+ members of the enemy team, and either be focused or keep roaring so your carries don't get hurt anyway.

Poison_Fish
2010-02-15, 05:34 PM
No, even late game Alistar is pretty amazing. He has huge natural strength gain, and you can typically pair him up with someone who will farm up lots of items. He's excellent support and tank in one, along with amazing healing. He kind of makes Taric a joke comparatively considering what they are both supposed to be able to do.

I get a locket on him so I'm healing my team even more, and boots. I rarely get kills or last hits, but I certainly get my team those. It's not a matter of damage your doing to them, it's a matter of you going in there, holding people down for a few seconds, and your team is doing damage. By the act of you going in there, they either stay and get disabled, or run. Thusly, he is tanking and initiating. Not all tanks need to do tons of damage to do their job.

In Sion's case, he is way more of a carry then a tank. As far as I see him, I label him as a strength carry, kind of like pantheon, pirate(to some degree), nassus, and a few others (to some degree).

Or to give dota analogies, Sven, Lycan, Bristle back, Huskar (Carries that tend to have more health, but they are focused in doing damage).

Milskidasith
2010-02-15, 05:38 PM
No, even late game Alistar is pretty amazing. He has huge natural strength gain, and you can typically pair him up with someone who will farm up lots of items. He's excellent support and tank in one, along with amazing healing. He kind of makes Taric a joke comparatively considering what they are both supposed to be able to do.

Taric is your teams aura dog, nothing else. He's terrible when built AP, but when you build Aura taric it's pretty amazing. Frozen Heart, the aura CDR, Aegis, possibly a starks, shatter, and his ult combined makes your team essentially have, if they had bought the items at the store, a few thousand extra gold in defensive items *each.* He's a support in that he can lightly heal up your team and when he's got his ult on, especially with a Sivir, suddenly your entire team has maybe twice the survivability and twice the damage output without him. Granted, he's not *great*, but Aura Taric fits into a lot of teams very well.


I get a locket on him so I'm healing my team even more, and boots. I rarely get kills or last hits, but I certainly get my team those. It's not a matter of damage your doing to them, it's a matter of you going in there, holding people down for a few seconds, and your team is doing damage. By the act of you going in there, they either stay and get disabled, or run. Thusly, he is tanking and initiating. Not all tanks need to do tons of damage to do their job.

I don't think *any* tank does absurd damage.

Poison_Fish
2010-02-15, 05:44 PM
I suppose they don't.

Interesting note last night for me, I'm wondering if there is some sort of bug with Nidalee and blitzcrank. She didn't have the spell shield or anything going on for her, but a friend I noticed several times rocket grabs go through her character model and past it, yet it never grabbed her. It could have just been that game or latency issues, but I know my latency was fine, so I'm chalking it up to something unintentional. It certainly wasn't leaping while in cat form or anything else like that.

Anyhow, I've lately found solo queuing frustrating, but that could be a result of having played a lot with higher elo friends. I'm still only 17, I have a hodge podge of runes as I don't really mind what I get until I hit 20, and I'll be converting them all at some point. As a result though, I've had some very odd matchmaking games. I've ran into premades, or just bad players I wouldn't expect to be at 30, but you can just get there if you play enough games.

and finally on a separate note, I've started to enjoy Ryze.

Joran
2010-02-15, 05:48 PM
As a tank, alistar can absorb a whole heck of a lot of damage, but he really canít hurt anyone so eventually people just ignore him. Compared to blizcrank and scion, which you canít ignore because they can and do kill people (scion is pretty ridiculous if you have a partially competent player and out right scary if you have a good player). As a tank, you have to force people to pay attention to you and waste resources (abilities) trying to kill you, so your squishy team mates donít get targeted and squashed. I find alistar later game cannot do that, early game they will because everyone fears the stun, untill they realize it only works about half the time.

I haven't had any major issues with the stun; it has a very short range, but through practice, you'll understand where the stun is.

The key for Alistar is that he can both initiate (with the stun) and also separate out one person from the rest of the group blob. With the stun, the rest of your team can alpha strike one person and get him down without any chance for recovery. It's why melee carries like Yi and Tryndamere are considered poor; they're naturally in a location where they can be stunned and then nuked into oblivion.

The key is that most battles after the 15-20 minute mark are going to be at least 3 on 3, and most of the times 5 on 5. These are the types of battles that Alistar shines in. Also, the stun + headbutt back to your partner during the laning phase is vicious and can feed your partner kills.

Astrella
2010-02-15, 06:24 PM
What's the opinion on Ryze at the moment? He just seems capable of doing really absurd amounts of burst damage. Seeing Ryze two times most games doesn't make me very happy either.

Hmm, I'm currently trying out Poppy a bit. I like her, but she does seem to have low base hp for being a rather aggressive hero.

TheThan
2010-02-15, 08:31 PM
bunch o stuff.

I never said that alistar is terrible. In fact heís very good at crowd control, pushing lanes, initiating team battles, destroying towers and whatnot.

Weíre using two different definitions of tank. To you a tank is a battle field controller, (which is what alistar is). To me a tank distracts the enemy and absorbs damage because if they donít focus him, heíll kill someone, or weaken them enough for the team to kill them, (sounds like a carry huh, they are similar).

Another thing, is that you can NEVER TRUST tier trees. From experience I can tell you that the majority of the time they are either flat out wrong, based off of ONE personís POV, rely heavily on an optimal situation, or with an expert ďpro-playerĒ at the controls.


LOL currently enjoys a large player base, and with that comes a huge pool of player skill, not everyone is pro, and not everyone plays the way the internet tells them to.


As to alistarís stun being glichy, Iíve stomped enemies that I was right on top of, and had it hit minions to either side of him, but the guy I was after, just walked away like I did nothing, it was low level so no gear and no anti-magic. Granted it works most of the time, but on occasion it doesnít work quite right. Seem to happen when Iím moving more than when Iím standing put.

Milskidasith
2010-02-15, 08:52 PM
Weíre using two different definitions of tank. To you a tank is a battle field controller, (which is what alistar is). To me a tank distracts the enemy and absorbs damage because if they donít focus him, heíll kill someone, or weaken them enough for the team to kill them, (sounds like a carry huh, they are similar).

No, we aren't. If you play Alistar and they aren't focusing you, you're keeping your team alive and AoE stunning them. If you *really* think that Alistar doesn't need to be focused, then you probably aren't playing well. Seriously, what part of Alistar doesn't say "focus me?" The AoE heal that keeps your allies sustained with an easily possible 150+ HP/second if there are lots of creeps around, or 150+ HP every few seconds if there aren't so many? The massive duration AoE stun that's up more than any other AoE stun in the game? The headbutt to knock enemies out of position? If you don't focus Alistar, you die. If you do focus him, he ults and you die to the carries who are unscathed. He kills you no matter what you do if he plays well and has a team that sticks with him and acts on his initiative (and he, of course, knows when to initiate.)


Another thing, is that you can NEVER TRUST tier trees. From experience I can tell you that the majority of the time they are either flat out wrong, based off of ONE personís POV, rely heavily on an optimal situation, or with an expert ďpro-playerĒ at the controls.

An interesting way to completely avoid the point. First of all, the "tiers" I'm using are from a compiled tier list that shows where each person is ranked based on a bunch of different tier lists. Alistar was 1.75 out of 20 (20 being if you got all lowest tier, 1 being if you got highest tier. Sivir and TF were, of course, 1.0). Second of all, they do, in fact, mean something. They are based on the contribution you can bring to your team.


LOL currently enjoys a large player base, and with that comes a huge pool of player skill, not everyone is pro, and not everyone plays the way the internet tells them to.


Again, this is completely irrelevant. Yeah, if people play like morons then Eve can rape face and Warwick can contribute with an AP build, but that doesn't mean that Alistar isn't the best tank. Unless you really want us to simply not discuss game balance because people can feed and let any build work, in which case why are you complaining about Alistar's balance anyway?


As to alistarís stun being glichy, Iíve stomped enemies that I was right on top of, and had it hit minions to either side of him, but the guy I was after, just walked away like I did nothing, it was low level so no gear and no anti-magic. Granted it works most of the time, but on occasion it doesnít work quite right. Seem to happen when Iím moving more than when Iím standing put.

If you are moving while they are standing put, it's possible there were latency issues, you overran them, they were sivir and had spellshield, etc. There are plenty of ways it could have failed without glitching. I've never seen it glitch before.

Xalerwons
2010-02-16, 04:51 AM
Tank Taric doesn't work (he's naturally squishy). In fact, *healer* taric doesn't work. Taric is useful as an aura... dog, to use the less than savory lingo of the game. Put a Frozen Heart and an Aegis on him, and then use mana regen. He's only really useful if you happen to have Sivir, because their ults combined is flat out absurd.

Not true. They both serve the same role as pushers, as Taric's ult scales far better than Sivir's on a phys team. You're right that his primary role is as an aura-bot, but he's easily one the most tankiest champions in the game armor-wise without items.


Uhh.. taunt can only be removed by cleanse isn't really a benefit. The same applies for all debuffs, unless taunt doesn't allow GP to use Remove Scurvy. Anyway, actually Rammus is tied with every other tank (save Gragas) for second place as the best tank. Taunt's cool, but so are AoE stuns

You can't flash out of taunt except pre-emptively. You can flash out of roots/binds, and mercury treads reduce all CC by 40% except rammus' taunt. So yes, he has the longest single target disable in the game by a long shot. GP is a trash champion with the recent parrley change. It does crappy burst even with a full rune page of armor pen/ crit damage until he get farm an IE. And by that time, either team should have pushed to inhibs.


Nasus is fairly nonthreatening as a tank... except the massive armor debuff when he uses Spirit Fire in a teamfight and the fact he will not die if he has his ult up (yeah... probably 120 DPS to each enemy and 200 to each enemy tank, with all of that being converted to bonus damage for him to lifesteal, is pretty insane.) Malphite has a powerful slow that also speeds him up, a powerful AoE, and a great ult for initiation. Rammus is not nearly the great tank you make him out to be.

I didn't make him out to be a tier above the others, I simply stated that he has the best disable in the game. Malphite is one of the worst tanks if the game goes beyond 20 minutes. He simply scales too poorly and has only his ultimate, which most competent teams can avoid. It will often hit 1 or 2 people at most. Alistar can do the same, but better, and 7 times more frequently. Rammus can at least use his 1100 movement speed to powerball > taunt > def curl a carry. Nasus is terrible as a tank, as he is dealt by good teams the same as an Udyr, cc'ed to death. Spirit Fire honestly doesn't hit good players a significant majority of the time.


]Basically, if the game ever gets draft mode, Alistar is probably the #3 automatic ban behind Sivir and TF, and the rest of the tanks (save Gragas) are all viable. Well, Singed is a little weak, but the rest are fine. In fact, most are probably stronger than Rammus, because he's a one trick pony who gets hurt very hard by a Last Whisper or a Bloodrazor (which deals magic damage, which most Rammus's don't stack.) Get a bloodrazor and suddenly taunt means Rammus dies, not harasses you with his team.

Singed isn't a great initiator as he has to take a beating to get a fling off, and most people can flash/cleanse/use a shield or simply move out of it. Bloodrazor deals magic damage... a decent rammus will have about 250+ armor and 200+ magic resist... so bloodrazor would take over 60 swings to kill him. 60 swings = around 7000 damage reflected back at the carry who is usually very squishy.


Annie's only got her AoE stun with Tibbers up; without it, she's not threatening at all because incinerate (the cone one; I think disintegrate is the now stupid looking single target shot) has such an absurdly small range it can't AoE stun. Not that Annie isn't the best mage; she is, but Alistar has more often AoE stuns, Amumu has his up not quite as often but not far away, and Udyr happens to have his stun up far more often than Annie (even in a teamfight, she can't stun everybody on the enemy team every five seconds). I'm not saying Annie's bad; she's great, but you are overplaying her as a character that can output constant damage when she's not amazingly useful against a smart team unless she has her ult (if Annie has her graphic and is approaching, stun her and run.)

This got me to laugh. Incinerate has about a 25% larger range than the graphic shows. A good annie can aoe stun an enemy team 2-3 times in a single team fight. Maybe not the entire team, but a few of them, the key dpsers. She is the best mage, and .... Alistar is a tank. Of course tanks are better at initiating, but once it starts, they are outshined by Annie.

Udyr is not going to melee every person on the other team once, just to maximize his stun/second ratio. That's simply retarded. He will stance dance and focus 2 people at a time. Also, I think you're unaware of Annie's double stun bug, where she can proc pyromania twice in a row without building it.

Amumu is quite simply terrible at the current time. He serves a small niche role as an off-tank for an aoe heavy team. That's it.


Also, not having TF on here is... I don't know how he's not here. He's the most broken character in the game.
He's sort of a mage, but really he's more of a carry that happens to be a mage. His abilities must be counteracted by the team as a whole, otherwise he will get fed easily. That's why I listed him as a carry. Also, he can be built AD or AP, either works fine really.


Sivir is one of the best characters in the game, and built as a carry she works fine. Built as an aura dog she works fine as well, but unless your team is organized going as a carry with a starks works out great. Her AoE damage and creep farming is more than large enough to make up for her slightly lackluster base stats (still impressive... and still better than Ashe. Ashe needs some love.)
She's best served as an aura-bot and secondary carry along with a real carry. Unlike most carries she can actually farm well in the early and mid game without items. Since she has a high influx of gold, she buys aura items for real carries.


Corki is amazing, yes, but how are you getting -150 armor? At rank 5 it's... 4 seconds, I think, a shot every half second, with -5 armor per shot. That's -40 armor. Even if you add in a Black Cleaver you can only get up to -100. Armor reduction occurs before anything else, so with -100 armor you % armor decrease and armor penetration items, if you had them, would be worthless (unless the enemy had 100+ armor to begin with.) Tristana is eh. Shaco's about as good, and Nidalee is better *and* can support other carries well. Tristana is very squishy and her escape mechanism is on a very long CD. Twitch is fine. TF is not nearly as good as he could be when built as a carry; he should be a mage, if only because getting absurd stacks on Mejai's is very easy with him.

Getting mejai's on TF is only easy in pub stomp and mid elo games. Usually it becomes 5 man roaming squads as soon as either team's TF hits 6. Yeah.

As for corki, I made a slight mistake. 5 armor per shot, 2 shots per second, 5 seconds = 50 armor + 60 from black cleaver + 20 from starks = -130 armor reduction. Basically anyone without armor items will be taking 65% extra damage. He's godly next to another carry. Hell, he even lets a 0 AD blitzcrank powerfist for upwards for 600 non crit!

Tristiana's escape ability resets everytime she gets a kill. And with her having the longest auto attack range in the game, and the highest innate attack speed besides twitch, she's that good. A good team will feed their carry, and thus she can even use rocket jump offensively.

Nidalee is a squishy. She's really just master yi with no chase ability, a small ias heal, and a skill shot mini-nuke. By the time she gets into a fight, the fight's winner is more or less determined. And if she gets into the action any sooner, she just dies. In short, she's a mid-game action hero. If you don't push hard and well before 30 minutes, her effectiveness as a carry diminishes greatly.


Alistar, Fiddle, Malphite, Annie, and Amumu all have better initiation moves. Not that Blitz is bad, but there's a big difference between being a good initiator (them) and ganking somebody before the teamfight starts (Blitz). He also only really works on people who stay in spots they can get grabbed, which means that smart players don't have much trouble not getting grabbed except by ganks and in the thick of battle.

Grabbing someone forces the enemy team to engage, otherwise it will be 4v5 for the next 30-70 seconds. And yes, numbers mean a lot when skill is tightly matched. You should be aware of the cat and mouse harassment that extends before any team fight. That is where Blitz does best and initiates. If not, he can always disable the enemy carry through ally champions via grab + fist after the fight's begun. His niche is again in an aoe heavy team, but he works all around as a tanky initiator.


I never said that alistar is terrible. In fact heís very good at crowd control, pushing lanes, initiating team battles, destroying towers and whatnot.

Weíre using two different definitions of tank. To you a tank is a battle field controller, (which is what alistar is). To me a tank distracts the enemy and absorbs damage because if they donít focus him, heíll kill someone, or weaken them enough for the team to kill them, (sounds like a carry huh, they are similar).

Difference is that tanks do so by creating a situation where allied carries can attack with little resistance/risk to self. While carries simply do an egregious amount of damage and have chasing ability.



Another thing, is that you can NEVER TRUST tier trees. From experience I can tell you that the majority of the time they are either flat out wrong, based off of ONE personís POV, rely heavily on an optimal situation, or with an expert ďpro-playerĒ at the controls.
Not a tier tree, just a list of the most viable champions, so people don't waste time, say, learning warwick, heimerdinger, janna, and jax.



LOL currently enjoys a large player base, and with that comes a huge pool of player skill, not everyone is pro, and not everyone plays the way the internet tells them to.

Being pro is determined by the amount of hours put. Eventually, everyone will play more or less the same way augmented by their natural predilections. Sure there will be a few anomalies, but for the most part, this holds true. The internet really just expedites the process of learning.



As to alistarís stun being glichy, Iíve stomped enemies that I was right on top of, and had it hit minions to either side of him, but the guy I was after, just walked away like I did nothing, it was low level so no gear and no anti-magic. Granted it works most of the time, but on occasion it doesnít work quite right. Seem to happen when Iím moving more than when Iím standing put.

It's lag. Also, the headbutt-pulverize trick is sensitive to timing, as well as pulverizing any target that is being moved by an ability. Some abilities move champions instantly with a graphic delay and vice versa, and some take time to move them gradually.

Dragor
2010-02-16, 10:56 AM
I love Poppy, and I play well as her, getting plenty of nice kills and staying alive. However, I just seem to attract horrible teams as her. The game I was just playing, for example... we had a full team, and the other team had four champs rushing a lane. They took down two towers before anyone even batted an eyelid, despite me pinging the area like a madman (I'd been knocked out for the count defending said lane). Unsurprisingly, we ended up surrendering.

Milskidasith
2010-02-16, 11:29 AM
Not true. They both serve the same role as pushers, as Taric's ult scales far better than Sivir's on a phys team. You're right that his primary role is as an aura-bot, but he's easily one the most tankiest champions in the game armor-wise without items.

No. No he does not. Every other tank has a panic button or a way to escape, and most of them have better resistance to damage with their skills up (defensive ball curl, mundo's ult, alistar's ult, etc all provide more survivability than Taric's rather meh [in comparison] +60 armor from a skill. He's good, but he's not a tank.


You can't flash out of taunt except pre-emptively. You can flash out of roots/binds, and mercury treads reduce all CC by 40% except rammus' taunt. So yes, he has the longest single target disable in the game by a long shot. GP is a trash champion with the recent parrley change. It does crappy burst even with a full rune page of armor pen/ crit damage until he get farm an IE. And by that time, either team should have pushed to inhibs.

Actually, you can't flash out of stuns either. As for longest disable, still no, or at least it's a tie. There's fiddlesticks Fear has the same duration, and Event Horizon, which is, while shorter in duration, a three second root (not that veigar is viable) if you don't want to get stunned running through it. Also, I'm pretty sure they fixed the glitch with taunt not being merc treadable last patch, when they fixed it being uncleanseable.


I didn't make him out to be a tier above the others, I simply stated that he has the best disable in the game. Malphite is one of the worst tanks if the game goes beyond 20 minutes. He simply scales too poorly and has only his ultimate, which most competent teams can avoid. It will often hit 1 or 2 people at most. Alistar can do the same, but better, and 7 times more frequently. Rammus can at least use his 1100 movement speed to powerball > taunt > def curl a carry. Nasus is terrible as a tank, as he is dealt by good teams the same as an Udyr, cc'ed to death. Spirit Fire honestly doesn't hit good players a significant majority of the time.

Yeah, when you make a list that says "Best X" and include somebody, it generally implies that person is better than others. Malphite is also very good in general because of his passive. As for your "high level" comment, don't BS me, because L0Cust's tier list (one of the best top level players) has malphite at T2.


Singed isn't a great initiator as he has to take a beating to get a fling off, and most people can flash/cleanse/use a shield or simply move out of it. Bloodrazor deals magic damage... a decent rammus will have about 250+ armor and 200+ magic resist... so bloodrazor would take over 60 swings to kill him. 60 swings = around 7000 damage reflected back at the carry who is usually very squishy.


That's assuming that Rammus has defensive ball curl up. And assuming he isn't focused. And assuming the carry has no lifesteal or magic resist of his own to block your damage. Etc. A lot of risky assumptions to make, especially when defensive ball curl doesn't last all that long.


This got me to laugh. Incinerate has about a 25% larger range than the graphic shows. A good annie can aoe stun an enemy team 2-3 times in a single team fight. Maybe not the entire team, but a few of them, the key dpsers. She is the best mage, and .... Alistar is a tank. Of course tanks are better at initiating, but once it starts, they are outshined by Annie.

Yeah, the problem is, you completely ignored what I said. Annie cannot fight without Tibbers up. She will simply die attempting to. If she doesn't have her AoE stun with Tibbers she has to run into CC range to get multiple hits off with incinerate. Ignoring it by saying random stuff about how she can get off multiple stuns (irrelevant; who cares if she can get off two if you let her when, without Tibbers, she can't get off one?) does not help your case. I'm not saying Annie's bad; she's fine. It's just that she is one of the heroes primarily centered around her ult, so without it she is significantly weaker.


Udyr is not going to melee every person on the other team once, just to maximize his stun/second ratio. That's simply retarded. He will stance dance and focus 2 people at a time. Also, I think you're unaware of Annie's double stun bug, where she can proc pyromania twice in a row without building it.

I'm aware of Annie's double stun bug, I just thought you wouldn't bother to actually use it in an argument. Should I use the "if you attack a ranged neutral creep and leave while the other team can so you go, and nobody else attacks it, the other team can tell where you are by where the creeps shots go" glitch as an argument for why oracles and wards aren't needed? Seriously, why would you argue abusing a bug as a feature?

As for meleeing everybody once: Actually, it's not a bad idea. Whenever I play Udyr, whenever I hit bear stance I hit my primary target and everybody nearby until I can switch back to turtle/phoenix, which is usually three stuns.


Amumu is quite simply terrible at the current time. He serves a small niche role as an off-tank for an aoe heavy team. That's it.

Wow. Ok. I really don't know what to say to this one. 2.5 second AoE stun. That's god damn huge. It wins teamfights on it's own. Yeah, he's got nothing else besides that, but hell, plenty of champs are entirely dependant on their ult.


She's best served as an aura-bot and secondary carry along with a real carry. Unlike most carries she can actually farm well in the early and mid game without items. Since she has a high influx of gold, she buys aura items for real carries.


Yes, but she can work as a carry as well, or a half aura bot by just grabbing starks and maybe frozen heart.


Getting mejai's on TF is only easy in pub stomp and mid elo games. Usually it becomes 5 man roaming squads as soon as either team's TF hits 6. Yeah.

Yes... and? Mejai's is still the most cost efficient item AP in the game. You need only three stacks for it to be more cost efficient than buying blasting wands, and since there's a bunch of other stuff that goes into AP items. Unless TF is getting no assits/kills, which is *entirely* unlikely considering he is broken and banned in pretty much every tournament, mejai's is better.


As for corki, I made a slight mistake. 5 armor per shot, 2 shots per second, 5 seconds = 50 armor + 60 from black cleaver + 20 from starks = -130 armor reduction. Basically anyone without armor items will be taking 65% extra damage. He's godly next to another carry. Hell, he even lets a 0 AD blitzcrank powerfist for upwards for 600 non crit!

Yes. Corki is good.


Tristiana's escape ability resets everytime she gets a kill. And with her having the longest auto attack range in the game, and the highest innate attack speed besides twitch, she's that good. A good team will feed their carry, and thus she can even use rocket jump offensively.

Using rocket jump offensively eliminates that range advantage. Trist is OK, since she's basically a long range Yi, which eliminates a lot of his problems, but without CC in any form or a way to help the team, and low base HP, she's the same as any other carry: CC and forget about her. She just brings nothing to the table but pure damage and the occasional well aimed buster shot.


Nidalee is a squishy. She's really just master yi with no chase ability, a small ias heal, and a skill shot mini-nuke. By the time she gets into a fight, the fight's winner is more or less determined. And if she gets into the action any sooner, she just dies. In short, she's a mid-game action hero. If you don't push hard and well before 30 minutes, her effectiveness as a carry diminishes greatly.

Uhh... her heal is actually better than Taric's once you factor in the CD on that one. Plus it gives a massive attack speed buff, which is great for fights. Add in her high ability to chase and her ability to drop an AoE (if placed right) 40% armor and MR reduction on enemies with bushwhack and you have a carry with utility.


Grabbing someone forces the enemy team to engage, otherwise it will be 4v5 for the next 30-70 seconds. And yes, numbers mean a lot when skill is tightly matched. You should be aware of the cat and mouse harassment that extends before any team fight. That is where Blitz does best and initiates. If not, he can always disable the enemy carry through ally champions via grab + fist after the fight's begun. His niche is again in an aoe heavy team, but he works all around as a tanky initiator.


Yes, if his grab isn't flashed out of, and if people are stupid enough to stand near BC while in range of his grab, it works as an initiator. But honestly, I don't even play BC and I know how far to stay away to avoid getting grabbed, and I know to buy a banshee's veil on pretty much everybody because it's an all around awesome item, and just those two alone mean I'm almost never grabbed by a BC outside of surprise ganks, and in a surprise gank anybody could kill me. He's not bad, he's just not nearly as great as you say if the enemies pay attention.

Joran
2010-02-16, 12:21 PM
Another thing, is that you can NEVER TRUST tier trees. From experience I can tell you that the majority of the time they are either flat out wrong, based off of ONE personís POV, rely heavily on an optimal situation, or with an expert ďpro-playerĒ at the controls.


LOL currently enjoys a large player base, and with that comes a huge pool of player skill, not everyone is pro, and not everyone plays the way the internet tells them to.

I trust Tier Trees to tell me which characters are currently in vogue at higher ELOs and what abilities are considered good. Of course, a champion's effectiveness is going to be influenced greatly by team composition, but Tier Trees are a good guiding post about which characters are probably worth learning and which characters you should really not try to play with now (ie. my brother and Warwick). The tier lists are going to be different depending on the skill of the players you are playing with, but the top level ones are more useful because they basically tell you what limitations a champion will have. You can be a very good Evelyn player, but eventually people will start packing Oracle's and Vision Wards and your effectiveness may be limited. Instead, it may have been a better idea to have learned Shaco, who has some of the same characteristics, but is a better character.

That said, I don't let it affect which champions I play; I think L0cust rated Poppy in the bottom tiers, but I still play her because I'm comfortable with her and play well with her. Also, complaining about a champion that's either one tier too high or one tier too low or a champion's placement within a tier is a waste of time. It's more useful to know which champions are the best at which role and which champions really need more help than to complain that Rammus is clearly the second best tank and Cho'gath is third.


What's the opinion on Ryze at the moment? He just seems capable of doing really absurd amounts of burst damage. Seeing Ryze two times most games doesn't make me very happy either.

Hmm, I'm currently trying out Poppy a bit. I like her, but she does seem to have low base hp for being a rather aggressive hero.

Ryze is considered so-so. He has amazing single target burst damage and decent group damage with his ultimate and bouncing ball. The issue with him is low survivability (no stun and an OK disable) and he's not a particularly good farmer or jungler. One on one mid-game he's amazing; the less people he's up against, the better. So, when 3v3 comes out, then he'll probably see more play.

Poppy's passive is pretty good in that she can survive nukes pretty well, since the half damage kicks in if it's over 10% of your CURRENT health. Her ultimate does a good amount of damage and makes you immune to everybody else, a plus when you want to completely obliterate the opposing carry without any interference from the rest of his team. I do find building some HP into my build helps a great deal, depending on matchup, I get a Frozen Mallet instead of upgrading the Phage/Sheen into a Trinity Force. She gets very little love in the top tier lists, but so far in mid-level play, she's pretty good.

Milskidasith
2010-02-17, 12:50 PM
Corki is pretty amazing, and the thing is that he scales well early to lategame; early game, a gatling barrage plus autoattacks is enough to slug it out with any carry (besides teemo, with blind, and Yi, with having absurd physical stats to make up for having nothing else worth using) and dropping a phosphorous bomb helps even more. Midgame, your ult can allow you to easily harass a lane. Lategame, with a trinity and a black cleaver, you can hit for a nice chunk of damage with a rocket then hit somebody for 150% of your damage while their armor is absolute crap. Corki deals out absurd damage, has a decent getaway move, and isn't super squishy. He's really fun.

Joran
2010-02-17, 02:14 PM
Corki is pretty amazing, and the thing is that he scales well early to lategame; early game, a gatling barrage plus autoattacks is enough to slug it out with any carry (besides teemo, with blind, and Yi, with having absurd physical stats to make up for having nothing else worth using) and dropping a phosphorous bomb helps even more. Midgame, your ult can allow you to easily harass a lane. Lategame, with a trinity and a black cleaver, you can hit for a nice chunk of damage with a rocket then hit somebody for 150% of your damage while their armor is absolute crap. Corki deals out absurd damage, has a decent getaway move, and isn't super squishy. He's really fun.

And everyone has him! Well, at least everyone who signed up before January, along with a free UFO skin.

I faced a laning Taric + Corki combo. That was a particularly frustrating experience because the Taric would stun you, then shatter, Corki would gatling gun and your armor is non-existent.

Corki is great, but requires a bit of execution to pull off well.

Milskidasith
2010-02-17, 03:33 PM
And everyone has him! Well, at least everyone who signed up before January, along with a free UFO skin.

I faced a laning Taric + Corki combo. That was a particularly frustrating experience because the Taric would stun you, then shatter, Corki would gatling gun and your armor is non-existent.

Corki is great, but requires a bit of execution to pull off well.

Eh, he's not super execution based like Blitzcrank or something, but he can be a bit tricky.

What I *really* like as Corki is laning against Teemo, because his mushrooms are a phosphorous bomb for a free 25 gold.

Prince Gimli
2010-02-17, 03:40 PM
Goody, a Gitp LoL group :smallcool:

Count me in, I play on European servers, and my summoner name is Malderon.

EDIT: It would appear I am in fact playing on the american servers.

I mostly play nuking/support casters like Veigar, Ryze, Zilean and Soraka. Nothing more satisfying than to blast an opponent to smithereens in a matter of seconds, and then screaming HADOKEN! in /all chat :smallbiggrin:

Milskidasith
2010-02-20, 07:48 PM
New patch notes are out. Anybody concerned with any of the changes?

Brother Oni
2010-02-20, 09:48 PM
Which set of patch notes? The latest EU one was 1.0.0.74 on 11th Feb and I can't connect to the US website or forums at all at the moment.

Milskidasith
2010-02-21, 12:03 PM
Annie
Fixed a bug that allowed Annie to double stun.

Gragas
Increased base attack speed and attack speed per level by about 25%.
Barrel Roll
Increased missile speed by 25%.
Cooldown is now decreased by the amount of time the barrel is stopped for.
Cooldown increased by 1 as a result of the above buff.
Body Slam
Location targettable now.
Cleaned up collision detection.
Increased Body Slam's speed to 650/750/850/950/1050 from 600/650/700/750/800
Increased Body Slam's range by 50
Explosive Cask
Increased missile speed by about 25%.
Increased range by 50.
Fixed a bug where casting it out of range could sometimes make it cast to a lesser distance.
Slightly increased cast radius.

Jax
Empower (Remake):
Jax instantly charges his weapon with energy, causing his next attack to deal 40/60/80/100/120 damage to all enemies nearby.
As there is no longer a charge-up time, cooldown increased to 8/7/6/5/4 from 1 second.
Changed mana cost to 40 at all levels from 40/35/30/25/20.
Equipment Mastery (New Passive)
Jax's prowess with weapons and armor increase his fortitude as he gains equipment:
--- Jax gains 5 health per point of Attack Damage received from items.
--- Jax gains 3 health per point of Ability Power received from items.
Leap Strike can now target allies.

Katarina
Added a new updated particle for Death Lotus.
Fixed a bug in which Death Lotus would not immediately deal damage.
Death Lotus channeling time reduced to 2.6 from 3.

Karthus
Updated the icon for Death Defied.

Sivir
Lowered the movement speed bonus of On the Hunt to 25% from 35%.

Tryndamere
Fixed a tooltip bug with Bloodlust.

Twisted Fate
Wild Cards
Mana cost increased to 50/65/80/95/110 from 40/55/70/85/100.
Pick a Card
Mana cost increased to 60/70/80/90/100 from 40/50/60/70/80.
Gold Card base damage reduced to 40/80/120/160/200 from 50/100/150/200/250.
Gold Card ability power ratio increased to 0.5 from 0.4.
Red Card ability power ratio increased to 0.5 from 0.4.
Gold Card no longer slows.
Gate
Cooldown increased to 135/120/105/90/75 from 120/105/90/75/60

Twitch
Debilitating Poison now slows for 30% + 6% per Deadly Venom from 20% + 10% per Deadly Venom.

Warwick
Hungering Strike
Decreased mana cost to 60/70/80/90/100 from 100 at all levels
Decreased cooldown by 2 at all levels
Decreased minimum damage to 75/115/155/195/235 from 75/125/175/225/275
Decreased percentage damage to 6/9/12/15/18 from 8/11/14/17/20
Hunter's Call
Changed attack speed bonus to 40/45/50/55/60% from 50% at all levels. Allies gain half of this bonus at all levels.
Changed duration to 9 seconds at all levels from 6/9/12/15/18
Lowered cooldown to 30/27/24/21/18 seconds from 32 seconds at all levels
Blood Scent now has new particles both for Warwick and his victims.
Infinite Duress
Decreased cooldown to 90/80/70 from 100 at all levels
Decreased mana cost to 100/125/150 from 150 at all levels
Decreased stun duration to 1.7 from 2.1
Decreased number of hits to 5 from 6
Increased bonus damage per hit to 40/60/80 from 30/50/70
Increased base attack speed by about 20%, which also increases attack speed from items and Hunter's Call.
Increased base mana by 20
Increased base mana regen and mana regen per level by about 20%
Updated PVP.Net champion search tags

Veigar
Added new "team color" versions of the Event Horizon particle.

Items

Phage
Reduced Phage slow to 30% from 40%.
Fixed a bug in which Phage was slowing for too much on the initial hit.
Sheen
Reduced Sheen's on spellcast effect to 80% of base damage from 100%.
Trinity Force
Reduced Trinity Force Slow to 35% from 50%.
Reduced Trinity Force's on spellcast effect to 130% of base damage from 150%.
Mejai's Soulstealer: Reduced the amount of AP per stack to 9 from 10.
[edit]Summoner Spells

Increased the cooldown of flash to 240 from 210.

General

Baron Nashor now debuffs his target with -50% attack damage rather than 60% attack speed.
Blessing of the Lizard Elder
Lowered damage per second by 5 at all levels
Lowered movement speed debuff by 5% at every level past 5.
The in-game experience curve was normalized.
Champion kill experience system reworked. Experience rewards are now calculated on a per-champion basis, with the rewards scaling based on the delta of champion levels. The scaling is based on an S curve so that killing champions three levels and below provide negligible rewards, and kills three levels and above provide almost twice the experience of even level kills.

And that's all there was too it! Also, Zhonya's is getting a rework; it now provides no mana, 120 AP, the same passive, and an active where you snare and silence yourself in exchnage for total immunity to damage and CC for two seconds.

Prince Gimli
2010-02-21, 12:20 PM
It would appear that I am in fact playing on the american servers. I found this out when I got the collector's pack, and my key didn't appear to be working. I was pretty confused, untill clarity struck.

Since I now own the collector's pack, I might as well start playing on Europe too. So keep me on Europe, and also add me to the list of american players. My summoner name on the US server is also Malderon.

Astrella
2010-02-21, 08:36 PM
Hmm, I was wondering, since the price from T2 to T3 runes jumps a lot for not that much of an added affect, if T3 runes are worth saving for in the beginning?
I reckon it might be better to just get a general T2 book and get more heroes first?

Edit: Can't really judge the patch notes that well, since I'm still rather inexperienced. I like the Gargas buffs though and xp gain on hero kills being determined by level difference as well.


Tryndamere
Fixed a tooltip bug with Bloodlust.

This being the only Tryndamere change makes me sad though. I've bought him a few days ago and he just feels underpowered. Do any of you guys maybe have a few tips on how to play him to spare?

Oh, and with the double IP weekend I'm looking at buying one of the 3150 heroes. Was considering Nidalee, but there might be better choices, so I'd like to hear your opinions on the matter. I enjoy playing every hero-type, so that isn't really an issue.

Joran
2010-02-22, 01:14 PM
Hmm, I was wondering, since the price from T2 to T3 runes jumps a lot for not that much of an added affect, if T3 runes are worth saving for in the beginning?
I reckon it might be better to just get a general T2 book and get more heroes first?

This being the only Tryndamere change makes me sad though. I've bought him a few days ago and he just feels underpowered. Do any of you guys maybe have a few tips on how to play him to spare?

Oh, and with the double IP weekend I'm looking at buying one of the 3150 heroes. Was considering Nidalee, but there might be better choices, so I'd like to hear your opinions on the matter. I enjoy playing every hero-type, so that isn't really an issue.


I personally saved up to get Tier 3 runes; it was a slog to get to level 20, but I had something like 8K IP saved up and could buy a generic runebook for the type of characters I play (armor pen, cooldown reduction, health). It's a noticable difference, especially with the added 66 hp at level 1. I'd recommend holding off until level 20, but I'd definitely recommend getting a stable of characters that you enjoy playing first.

Tryndamere is underpowered in the current metagame, along with other hard melee carries (Yi being one of them). He's too vulnerable to stunlocks and other snares and he's too squishy so he's easily focusfired to heck in team fights. Since the current metagame involves teamfights pretty much past the laning phase, he's weak. That said, my friend has wrecked faces with his Trynadamere on the 3v3 map.

Depends on what kind of character you like. I can link you a list of "top tier" characters, characters that are generally considered good to great, but is there a type of playstyle you were looking for?

Nidalee is generally considered good, but she requires a different sort of "hit and run" kind of playstyle.

Astrella
2010-02-22, 01:41 PM
Hmm, characters I enjoy playing the most are heroes like Janna, Zilean and the like. I like playing most classes though, and try to play as many different heroes as possible.

On that matter, would it be a better approach to specialize in a few heroes first, or to try and get a feel of as many heroes as possible. (Of course, knowing what every hero is capable off is rather important in general.)

Milskidasith
2010-02-22, 02:00 PM
Nidalee is good because she hits about as hard as a pure carry, but has a decent escape mechanism (high base speed in tiger form, amazing speed boost in brush, pounce), a great utility spell (small AoE -40% armor with bushwhack, plus revealing), the best heal in the game (for it's huge attack speed boost) on a short CD, and a nice ranged nuke.

Brother Oni
2010-02-22, 02:36 PM
We haven't got that patch yet. I am looking forward to the Warwick changes though - maybe it'll make him a bit more viable?

On the other hand, we have got information on Mordekaiser (http://www.lol-europe.com/board/showthread.php?t=19675), who looks like another tank melee hero.

He does look epic with that huge mace though. :smallbiggrin:

Milskidasith
2010-02-22, 02:57 PM
We haven't got that patch yet. I am looking forward to the Warwick changes though - maybe it'll make him a bit more viable?

On the other hand, we have got information on Mordekaiser (http://www.lol-europe.com/board/showthread.php?t=19675), who looks like another tank melee hero.

He does look epic with that huge mace though. :smallbiggrin:

Mordekaiser is as worthless, if not moreso, than warwick. He's a melee carry with *no* initiation or CC moves, and his shield is based on spell damage and decays too fast for you to ever get anything done, plus his only nuke does pitiful damage even if you *do* proc the 3x single target damage.

The Warwick changes also don't help him at all. They actually make him worse. He can't proc a ton of on hit effects with his ult anymore, and hungering strike dealing less % damage makes him even worse in game (worse nuke, you'll be dead before it's off CD anyway), and it only helps his jungling, which is already good enough. His blood scent is still worthless and his howl is still a barely useful buff.

TF, likewise, is not nerfed nearly enough. In fact, with his better AP ratios, he's actually stronger with his destiny+gate+gold card+wild card combo. The only difference is with the higher mana costs he's *slightly* worse of a mid hero because he can't harass as often, though if he only uses wild cards to farm and gold cards on reaction to punish being attacked, he'll be fine and still probably deal more damage than his enemies will to him.

Dragor
2010-02-22, 03:17 PM
God, I hate the absolute imbeciles you can get sometimes.

"lol noob team", "stfu i kill u easy"

Yeah. :smallannoyed:

Joran
2010-02-22, 05:57 PM
God, I hate the absolute imbeciles you can get sometimes.

"lol noob team", "stfu i kill u easy"

Yeah. :smallannoyed:

Yup, those guys make the game not much fun to play. Also, I think my record for queue dodges was 3 straight times, but that was opposing force queue dodges instead of my own team.

I'm sure it'll get even worse when the competitive season actually starts. The only solution sadly is to build up a group of people who you can get along with and are fun to play with. Thankfully, my group of friends have a rotating roster of 7 or so people who like to play and we block out a couple nights a week for queueing and practicing together.

Poison_Fish
2010-02-22, 11:02 PM
On our ventrillo server that was once used only for dota, we have a group of 8-15 LoL players each night on PST. Along with a bunch of dota players and some TF2 players now.

I, however, will not give out the information here. If you wish to check it out, contact me on my LoL name. Most of us end up queuing together and will give advice. Truthfully, I get more advice then give, since I'm more of a dota player, but we do have a large group.

toasty
2010-02-23, 12:39 AM
Hmm, characters I enjoy playing the most are heroes like Janna, Zilean and the like. I like playing most classes though, and try to play as many different heroes as possible.

On that matter, would it be a better approach to specialize in a few heroes first, or to try and get a feel of as many heroes as possible. (Of course, knowing what every hero is capable off is rather important in general.)

If I compare this to dota, really what you need to do is first get a feel for the game. IE learn how the game operates and the various roles of heroes (Tank, Support, Carry, Ganker, etc). Once that is down, get a few heroes under your belt. Play a few heroes until you can get a build for them and then move on. Find heroes you really like, play them alot. Don't worry if you don't know the abilities of every single hero in the game for now.

The second step is to memorize the abilities, strengths and weaknesses of every hero. Then memorize the items. Ideally, you should be able to play any random hero and instantly know a decent build for that hero, whether or not you've played him before. This build can be because you see patterns in how his powers work (nukers want high damage and mana, for instance), but it can also be because other players have built this hero that way (in DotA, I know that X hero gets Y item because EVERYONE gets that item).

So really, I suggest you start small, focus on a few heroes, then, as you get better, learn how all the heroes work. You don't have to play them, I've never played lots of heroes, but I know how they work, that's the key.

Suedars
2010-02-23, 01:19 AM
I've picked this up again recently (stopped playing in early December), and have been playing a game or two a night recently. I'm Suedars on the US Servers.

Brother Oni
2010-02-23, 07:24 AM
Yup, those guys make the game not much fun to play. Also, I think my record for queue dodges was 3 straight times, but that was opposing force queue dodges instead of my own team.

I'm sure it'll get even worse when the competitive season actually starts. The only solution sadly is to build up a group of people who you can get along with and are fun to play with. Thankfully, my group of friends have a rotating roster of 7 or so people who like to play and we block out a couple nights a week for queueing and practicing together.

I think this is the key problem with getting decent games; reliable players you know and play regularly with.

Another major problem on the European servers is lack of a common language - a game I was playing last night had 3 of my team only communicating in German and declining to use English. I have some basic comprehension luckily, but that fails me when they start using slang.

Of course when things start going wrong, their English becomes perfect when shouting insults at their own team. :smallannoyed:


I think I've nearing my skill limit for the game, as I'm having problems curbing my over-aggressiveness and memorisation of the optimal item builds for each hero (I tend to just use the recommended items only).

Joran
2010-02-23, 10:22 AM
I think I've nearing my skill limit for the game, as I'm having problems curbing my over-aggressiveness and memorisation of the optimal item builds for each hero (I tend to just use the recommended items only).

For my first couple of games, I had a notepad right next to my keyboard with my item progression and how much money each one cost. Everytime I forgot what I was supposed to get, I'd look at the notepad and try to find the next item. If you have questions of which items to get for a particular champion, I'd be happy be help.

Recommended item builds are good, but you'll often have to gear against the opponent. I had a Rammus on my team that built for armor (generally a pretty good build) against a team full of mages... He was blasted into oblivion each time.

We also have a player who has a penchant for being overly aggressive. The first thing we did was "yell" at him. Then he decided he liked playing tanky characters which meant that he could survive his various escapades and that solved a bit of it; also he embraced his role of being a tank rather than a killer. The rest was just experience with occasional voice chats of "Get back!" over Vent.

toasty
2010-02-23, 10:49 AM
I think I've nearing my skill limit for the game, as I'm having problems curbing my over-aggressiveness and memorisation of the optimal item builds for each hero (I tend to just use the recommended items only).

It only took me about 2 years to get to where I am in DotA: i know the abilities of every hero (except Ancient Apparation, but I can fix that any time people start playing him. :p) and I THINK i know how every item works. I know the reciepes for every item I buy often.

It took me two years to learn that, with causal play. With serious play, you could speed that up a bit. Considering LoL has less heroes... maybe focus on items more?

The thing about Items, in my experience, is they are really a thing you just have to "feel your way through" (I'm a feeler though, so I dunno). It "feels" right for me to get certain items on certain heroes... so I do. If it didn't work so well, I'll try something else. LoL's items are very nicely organized so if you're looking for a new alternate build for a hero, its quite possible that you'll find something nice... it just takes a bit of time.

Astrella
2010-02-23, 11:26 AM
Well, the problem is I've been dying a lot lately (and losing) the last ten or so games. Probably because I've left Newbie Island (above lvl 12 right?) and am getting teamed up and against lvl 30's.

I've also bought Zilean yesterday, since he was my favourite hero when I started out and I'd like to think I'm reasonable with him.

What summoner spells do you guys get for him? I've been using Flash and Incinerate.

Edit: Are you guys having random frame rate drops as well? In some games, everything's alright, but others the frame rate drops drastically (to 4-6) after a while.
Oddly enough, this happens mostly when I'm playing Morgana.

Poison_Fish
2010-02-23, 03:01 PM
So, the other day a few of my friends and I fought pendragon and a few of his friends. We partly lost since we were kind of outplayed, along with our one pub with us seemingly never learned how to play Ashe. A 50 minute game where she hit with one arrow, and that's only because she incidentally hit bottom by missing mid. She couldn't even hit targets that were standing still that we had wards on in the middle of them getting a golem buff (It wasn't even a whiff, just a miss by a large margin).

Overall, that was frustrating, but I think the other 4 of us holding them off for that long was nice.

Milskidasith
2010-02-23, 03:37 PM
So, the other day a few of my friends and I fought pendragon and a few of his friends. We partly lost since we were kind of outplayed, along with our one pub with us seemingly never learned how to play Ashe. A 50 minute game where she hit with one arrow, and that's only because she incidentally hit bottom by missing mid. She couldn't even hit targets that were standing still that we had wards on in the middle of them getting a golem buff (It wasn't even a whiff, just a miss by a large margin).

Overall, that was frustrating, but I think the other 4 of us holding them off for that long was nice.

I heard Pendragon plays a pretty awesome Shaco.

Personally, I'm trying to branch out, but unless I can get a reasonable premade I can only really play with non support characters. I've got Annie down pretty well, I think, and I can play most carries, but I'm just flat out terrible with tanks, if only because I just can't ever find a team that helps out.

EDIT: As for Ashe's who miss, a lot of people do that. I think they try to hit the skillshot by hitting an area on the line, instead of at the person. Like, if the person is at Golem, they roughly aim it by pointing their cursor in the right direction and fire... which never hits. I've seen Ashe's miss point blank by huge margins doing stupid stuff like that instead of aiming at the endpoint.

Also, Ashe is pretty bad in general; low base stats. She's only really good as a support for 100% slows.

Poison_Fish
2010-02-23, 03:55 PM
He does play a pretty awesome Shaco. He also insists on soloing shaco mid. Sadly, he got away with it in our game, because our Ashe was 1. fairly bad to begin with (We placed sight wards around mid, she could she Shaco coming towards her, and yet would do very little :<). 2. Overall, I agree that ashe is fairly week. A corki or a Sivir could deal with that quite easily, but even a bad ashe could start hammering a sneaky Shaco if she see's what he's doing and avoid unnecessary damage.

But as I said before, I do have a large amount of good to fairly decent to meh people that communicate through a ventrilo we own. When I get back online (might be much later today, maybe in a few days, I've been dealing with school work) I'm willing to share that info as I wouldn't mind an expanded community and more people to play games with. But overall, I request patience from anyone who plays games, it's always a learning process for most.

Milskidasith
2010-02-23, 08:24 PM
Solo mid annie = a winning annie. I have discovered this. Hit level 6, kill somebody with winbear, and buy yourself a mejais or some other item. Mejais is only because even if you die due to focused fire (which is likely) you still can keep 6-8 stacks up with just a kill and an assist every time you die after a good streak, and that alone gives it as much AP as any other AP item.

I don't even need the doublestun glitch, although it certainly helps her do more than just initiate in a teamfight. Guardian Angel is also a wonderful last item to grab for her because, well, once the enemies waste their nukes on you, you can go back to hitting them really hard.

Astrella
2010-02-23, 08:46 PM
What is the double stun glitch?

On that note, I've just played Annie for the first time and went 7-1-9 or something similar. That's the best score I've ever gotten besides a few games when I just started playing.

How do you actually counter Annie's combo at level six? Since it just seems pretty much of a guarantied kill in my eyes.

Milskidasith
2010-02-23, 09:26 PM
It is. You counter it by not being in range. Flash + Ignite solves that problem, because flash + bear stuns too fast to even flash away from, and if they happen to flash out of your disintegrate (because of it's travel time, they might get away before it hits) ignite will kill them.

They need to have gone back and gotten Mercs Treads, and even that's not a guarantee; Annie will kill you with her combo at level 6 as long as you have <800 HP or so. Winbear FTW.

The doublestun glitch is simple. You have the counter that goes 1,2,3,4,energized. While energized, if you cast Q, W, or R, it gets rid of the energized buff and adds one counter. But if you are energized and cast E, then it adds a counter but doesn't get rid of energized. Cast shield four times while energized, and you can stunbear, then stun disintegrate. Even if you don't use it fully, you still can charge up your next stun faster by using shield (for instance, if you shield twice, then once you stunbear, you have three charges, so you can put up another shield, a disintegrate, and an incincerate, and proc stun.)

Also, get a deathfire grasp with annie, to add to the burstiness. Go to your options menu and change the key binding of whatever item slot it is (1,2,3,4,5 or 6), to T, and your combo will then be R, W (possible doublestun, I wouldn't get used to it since it's being patched out,), Q, T, with whoever gets hit by Q and T probably dying.

If the enemies grab banshee's veils, ask your teammates with spammable skills and no counter to worry about to pop them. Ashe, GP, Cardmaster, Ryze, and anybody with a "bouncy" skill are all great for this.

Brother Oni
2010-02-24, 07:28 AM
Recommended item builds are good, but you'll often have to gear against the opponent. I had a Rammus on my team that built for armor (generally a pretty good build) against a team full of mages... He was blasted into oblivion each time.


I'm fully aware that I need to build according to the opposing team - about the only recipe I know is the one for Banshee's Veil. :smallbiggrin:



We also have a player who has a penchant for being overly aggressive. The first thing we did was "yell" at him. Then he decided he liked playing tanky characters which meant that he could survive his various escapades and that solved a bit of it; also he embraced his role of being a tank rather than a killer.

Taking your advice, I decided to try out Chogath and am doing reasonably well with him as combined with flash, I can usually survive most of my accidents. Is there any advice you can give on general play or item builds with him? Lots of HP items and multiple copies of Atma's Impaler seems to be what's suggested.
Again, runes and masteries suggest more HP giving items.

I've also tried Shaco, but I can't get my head around how he plays (the first non-bot game I played with him, I just got endless abuse from the opposing team's Shaco as I kept on dying). I'm a reasonably competent Twitch, but Shaco is a lot different from other stealth characters.



It took me two years to learn that, with causal play. With serious play, you could speed that up a bit. Considering LoL has less heroes... maybe focus on items more?
Unfortunately family commitments means I don't have the time to really knuckle down and play seriously and it'd be a few years yet before my children get old enough to pass off playing PC games with them as 'quality time'. :smallbiggrin:

Joran
2010-02-24, 11:13 AM
Taking your advice, I decided to try out Chogath and am doing reasonably well with him as combined with flash, I can usually survive most of my accidents. Is there any advice you can give on general play or item builds with him? Lots of HP items and multiple copies of Atma's Impaler seems to be what's suggested.
Again, runes and masteries suggest more HP giving items.


Actually, Cho'gath was the character my overaggresive friend uses now ;) He also plays Rammus occasionally. Here's his current build:

1) Regrowth Pendant (475 gold). You should be able to lane with both this and your passive giving you health.

2) Boots: Depending on opponent matchup. Mercury's Treads are usually the choice, but Ninja Tabi's if there's a large number of physical DPS.

3) Upgrade Regrowth to Warmog's Armor

4) Depending on team matchup: Frozen Heart (lower cooldown + armor) for physical DPS, Force of Nature (more magic resist + regen), or Guardian Angel (a mixture of both armor and magic resist with the rez effect on death)

Basically, as Cho'gath, you don't want to die, since you'll lose your Feast stacks, so more HP helps, hence the Warmog's.

Dragor
2010-02-24, 03:22 PM
I played my first game as Evelyn, and it was really good. Got owned at early levels due to me still getting used to her as a whole, but really pulled my weight at the end-game, and I was executing champions left and right. It's a good feeling after my hit-and-miss as Tryndamere, where I would either be a SKULLCLAIMEEEER or just a flop.

Also, after putting on Starman by David Bowie and thinking of Soraka (I have no life), what music would you assign to the various champions? :smalltongue:

Rama
2010-02-24, 07:20 PM
For Cho'gath follow this guide: http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=28942

Pretty much any guide by condon is pure genius.

Milskidasith
2010-02-24, 09:26 PM
For Cho'gath follow this guide: http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=28942

Pretty much any guide by condon is pure genius.

It isn't updated for the massive nerf to Cho Gath's feast as an initiation move, and also pure tank Cho'Gath hardly does anything damagewise. He's a big guy who can tank well, *if* the enemies focus him.

Rama
2010-02-25, 08:01 AM
Actually he posted later in the thread about that change.

And I've played cho a few times since then, he's still viable playing the same style. Feast nerf hurts for sure, but still fun.

Joran
2010-02-25, 02:01 PM
It isn't updated for the massive nerf to Cho Gath's feast as an initiation move, and also pure tank Cho'Gath hardly does anything damagewise. He's a big guy who can tank well, *if* the enemies focus him.

If he manages to spike a group and then AoE silence, that group is helpless for a good amount of time. That and the large sprite with 6 stacks of Feast scream "KILL ME FIRST" and the team ignores the itty bitty Tristana or Teemo actually doing the damage. If he misses the spikes and the other team is good enough to stand outside his silence range, he's a sad monster from the void.

We use a tanking Cho'gath because two of my friends like playing him and he helps us tower-dive in a team fight whenever we have the advantage Having 5K+ health means he can chump the tower damage a long time and allows the squishies to target the enemy champions before going onto the tower. In our ELO, people seem to think that a tower can protect them even with 5v2 odds...

Astrella
2010-02-25, 06:16 PM
Why does Nidalee have to have an annoying bug just when I want to try her out. :smallfrown:

Milskidasith
2010-02-25, 08:02 PM
Why does Nidalee have to have an annoying bug just when I want to try her out. :smallfrown:

Wait, what's the bug?

Astrella
2010-02-25, 08:29 PM
When you use Pounce, you lose your walking animation, can't use any of your other beast abilities, nor auto attack until you use Pounce again.
It doesn't happen every time, but more often if you have Boots of Mobility equipped.
And another odd thing is that my beast abilities don't list their damage properly: they all say "... 0 (+x) ...", instead of the actual amount.

Oh well, I've been switching Zilean and Annie now, and my win rate has gone up again. Oh, I love playing Zilean.

Brother Oni
2010-02-26, 01:49 PM
I encountered a competent Zilean for the first time last night.

Damn, that time bomb ability hurts. :smallannoyed:

Milskidasith
2010-02-26, 01:56 PM
I encountered a competent Zilean for the first time last night.

Damn, that time bomb ability hurts. :smallannoyed:

It harasses well, can be used at the tower because it only counts as an attack once it explodes, and has a good AP ratio. It's still not that great lategame, but laning it's amazing, and with rewind you can drop two bombs in a row so the enemies get hurt even worse.

I tried Zilean, but the problem is he doesn't have a lot of late game oomph besides dropping his ult as much as possible, which is fairly useful, and keeping your teammates sped up. Mid game, though, he's a killer because boots of mobility + his speed boost lets him run everywhere super fast.

Suedars
2010-02-26, 04:48 PM
Zilean's best use imo is his ability to manipulate positioning through his movespeed skill. Speeding up a tank can help them get into the fray without getting disabled before they can get off a stun. And if an enemy hero is caught out of position and vulnerable, hitting them with his snare will allow your team to destroy them. It can also save one or two heroes if you need to flee a teamfight gone bad. If you win a teamfight it can be the difference between 3 enemy heroes escaping and turtling, preventing you from getting any pernament gains, and wiping the enemy team and taking out a tower.

Also he's an ideal candidate for getting a Frozen Heart (and an Aegis if cash permits) which can be a huge difference lategame.

Thrawn183
2010-02-26, 06:39 PM
So I'm building myself a desktop (all the components should arrive within about a week) which means I'll finally have a computer capable of running LoL! I have a good friend (IRL) that I can play and practice with, but I'd like to hit the ground running as fast as possible.

While I know about last hitting and the principle of teamwork from DotA, is there a good guide for beginners? I'm finding it difficult to find general information, rather than super-specific stuff about a single character.

toasty
2010-02-26, 11:55 PM
So I'm building myself a desktop (all the components should arrive within about a week) which means I'll finally have a computer capable of running LoL! I have a good friend (IRL) that I can play and practice with, but I'd like to hit the ground running as fast as possible.

While I know about last hitting and the principle of teamwork from DotA, is there a good guide for beginners? I'm finding it difficult to find general information, rather than super-specific stuff about a single character.

General good guide: Learn to last hit. Learn how the creep/tower AI works. Learn how to use grass and neutrals. Everything else, in my experience, really comes down to understanding the detailed mechanics of how different heroes work with other heroes, which heroes are good/bad, which items work for who, etc.

Edit: I must point out that I'm not someone who can pin down the exact details of how I learned to play. I just did. :smallbiggrin:

It might sound annoying, but its true, in my experience at least.

Brother Oni
2010-02-27, 03:46 AM
There's a couple general information guides on the European LoL forums:

Beginner's Guide (http://www.lol-europe.com/board/showthread.php?t=2808)

List of general and champion specific guides (http://www.lol-europe.com/board/showthread.php?t=3209).

Astrella
2010-02-27, 11:00 AM
Edit: Decided to stick with the US client, due to download issues and their apparently being censored stuff in the EU client.

Brother Oni
2010-02-27, 11:20 AM
Been seeing a lot of Mordekaiser recently and he's not as bad as Milskidasith seems to think, at least at my ELO. He's a very good pusher and tower killer and a lot tankier than I expected - I can't solo him with twitch from an ambush and I once saw one escape a 4 man gank squad (luckily they didn't have any slows or stuns).

Poison_Fish
2010-02-27, 12:57 PM
He brings nothing to a team fight except being annoying to kill and a DoT that isn't bursty enough.

Frankly, his advantage lay in being mega hard to harass out of a lane. I've seen him solo somewhat successfully against some standard solo's out there. But frankly, those solo's can just leave as he won't push the tower that hard and gank elsewhere.

He's not good at ganking since he has no slow or disable either. Frankly, he's just good at surviving, not much else.

Milskidasith
2010-02-27, 01:54 PM
He brings nothing to a team fight except being annoying to kill and a DoT that isn't bursty enough.

Frankly, his advantage lay in being mega hard to harass out of a lane. I've seen him solo somewhat successfully against some standard solo's out there. But frankly, those solo's can just leave as he won't push the tower that hard and gank elsewhere.

He's not good at ganking since he has no slow or disable either. Frankly, he's just good at surviving, not much else.

Exactly. The only good thing about him is that he's an absurdly annoying harasser early game when he can just level up his "fill my shield near instantly if it hits creeps" move and hit you with it. And honestly, if I wanted a harasser who's self sufficient, I'd pick Soraka, because at least she brings absurd healing and a good AoE debuff to teamfights.

If Mord gets a Rylai's, he's kind of effective, but... he's just a nuisance. As far as "annoying to kill" goes, Udyr's a much better choice anyway, since he can escape from anything (baiting the enemy team to chase me while my team pushes the opposite lane? Hell yes!), deals a crapload of damage, and has a stun and a better shield.

Astrella
2010-02-28, 05:45 AM
Are there any disadvantages connected to playing on the US-server being from Europe? Enough to consider moving to the EU server?

Brother Oni
2010-02-28, 06:16 AM
Aside from the obvious lag concern, not as far as I'm aware.

There might be some issues if you have a billing problem and need to contact support, but there's no restrictions on registration location as far as I can see.

At least until Riot starts clamping down and IP blocking Europeans so they're forced to play on GoA's servers.

Astrella
2010-02-28, 06:57 AM
I'd make the switch, but
1. I've read that some animations / game voices are censored in the EU client? (Something to do with showing no blood and similar issues.)

2. My download limit at home has expired, and I only have a very limited download capacity at my residence. So I can't switch yet, and would be a bit silly to continue on the US account then... Guess I'll take a short break perhaps.

Brother Oni
2010-02-28, 08:28 AM
With regard to point 1, the censorship done on the EU client (looks like it's just blood when hitting minions) has absolutely no effect on gameplay, so I'm not especially bothered.

There is a way of replacing them if you really want blood back in your game (it involves replacing some particle files with the US versions, but you have to revert them back every time there's a new patch), but is it really worth the hassle in this case?

Astrella
2010-02-28, 08:34 AM
Likely not. I'll probably make the switch though, as soon as I can find a way to get the client downloaded in a reasonable time.

How's the updated Jax turning out by the way? Haven't had a chance to try him yet since I don't have him, nor have I had to face him since the new patch.

Edit: Decided to stick with the US client, since the only real problems I have are some frame rate issues, which should be fixed by cleaning up my computer. (usual latency is 100-150 ms) And I can't be bothered building up again, tbh...
(Curse my ficklemindedness...)

Brother Oni
2010-02-28, 12:55 PM
There's a guide on the US site regarding improving your frame rate: Link (http://kb.leagueoflegends.com/questions/13/Low+FPS+Troubleshooting).

Other than that, it's your standard cleaning up your computer and making sure your drivers are up to date.


I've faced Jax a couple times, but I've played him before so I can't say how he's changed.

By the way, is it me or is one of the particle files broken on one of Warwick's abilities? Half the time I see him with big green balls floating about his head.

Poison_Fish
2010-02-28, 01:51 PM
AP Jax is quite nice. After ninja tabi (I also get a philosophers stone), gunisoo's rage blade and a rylai's on him is amazing. All your attacks are fairly low cool down, they all do decent magic damage, and then they slow. Along with a high attack speed from the rage blade, increasing your own health because of the AP it affords, it makes for a pretty solid build.

Milskidasith
2010-02-28, 01:53 PM
AP Jax is quite nice. After ninja tabi (I also get a philosophers stone), gunisoo's rage blade and a rylai's on him is amazing. All your attacks are fairly low cool down, they all do decent magic damage, and then they slow. Along with a high attack speed from the rage blade, increasing your own health because of the AP it affords, it makes for a pretty solid build.

Considering the new Jax is quite possibly better than TF (kills everybody, has no counter), I'd say yes, it's a pretty solid build.

Poison_Fish
2010-02-28, 06:20 PM
Considering the new Jax is quite possibly better than TF (kills everybody, has no counter), I'd say yes, it's a pretty solid build.

Maybe, he doesn't have the map control nor the early game potential as TF however and needs a bit of farm to get going.

Sword of the divine helps against him, as does not fighting him where your creeps are, ensuring he can't get random dodge procs.

Astrella
2010-02-28, 06:37 PM
What's your opinion on the changes to the XP system? Since there seems to be quite some complaints about it... I haven't noticed much of a change to be honest, if only that being unlucky / lucky in the start doesn't have such a huge influence any more.

Milskidasith
2010-02-28, 06:55 PM
Maybe, he doesn't have the map control nor the early game potential as TF however and needs a bit of farm to get going.

Sword of the divine helps against him, as does not fighting him where your creeps are, ensuring he can't get random dodge procs.

Actually, it's the exact opposite. Early game, TF has no map control (limited with Gate, I suppose, but not enough to gank anybody if you get a reasonable MIA call), does fairly low damage, and has low HP, and to actually get super high damage on his combo, he needs to be fed for items/mejai stacks. Jax, however, just needs to farm (which he does well) to have the AP items he needs to do well.

Also, Sword of the Divine is expensive enough that it will, in a 1v1 situation, prevent you from actually being able to beat Jax even without dodge, and the duration on it is so short if Jax actually has a stun up he can just stun you and you won't be able to begin hurting him. He also has an absurd escape mechanism with the s uper short cooldown and long range on leap strike.

He is no doubt top tier, and quite possibly better than TF because he has no (effective) counter and requires less farming to get up to god levels.

Poison_Fish
2010-02-28, 07:19 PM
Actually, it's the exact opposite. Early game, TF has no map control (limited with Gate, I suppose, but not enough to gank anybody if you get a reasonable MIA call), does fairly low damage, and has low HP, and to actually get super high damage on his combo, he needs to be fed for items/mejai stacks. Jax, however, just needs to farm (which he does well) to have the AP items he needs to do well.

Also, Sword of the Divine is expensive enough that it will, in a 1v1 situation, prevent you from actually being able to beat Jax even without dodge, and the duration on it is so short if Jax actually has a stun up he can just stun you and you won't be able to begin hurting him. He also has an absurd escape mechanism with the s uper short cooldown and long range on leap strike.

He is no doubt top tier, and quite possibly better than TF because he has no (effective) counter and requires less farming to get up to god levels.

I disagree, at level 3 he still has the option of ganking anywhere with a cold card. He can hold his own in a lane fairly well. He has a much better early presence then compared to Jax's presence.

Late game, not so much. He does have the weakness of low health.

Truthfully, Jax doesn't need much to get going, but he's going to have trouble controlling a lane by himself early game.

I certainly won't deny, he doesn't really have anything close to a hard counter other then the standard stuns/lock down. He's certainly going up from the previous tier he was in.

I just don't see him as an early game threat the same way I see TF, even with some nerfs, as an early game threat.

Milskidasith
2010-02-28, 09:48 PM
I disagree, at level 3 he still has the option of ganking anywhere with a cold card. He can hold his own in a lane fairly well. He has a much better early presence then compared to Jax's presence.

The problem is that TF is *obvious*. Without his ult, porting takes, what, 3.5 seconds? You can just keep an eye on the bushes near your base and you'll be fine, since it shows up even in fog of war. If he's ever away for a significant amount of time, go back. He *needs* his ult to be able to port in for a gank reliably, or at least. Plus, early game, Gold Card + Toss is not that impressive.


Late game, not so much. He does have the weakness of low health.

Jax, with his HP buff and passive dodge, actually has a pretty good early presence. He can farm well, and leap strike + stun is very good harassment, plus he has pretty absurd base movespeed (325).


Truthfully, Jax doesn't need much to get going, but he's going to have trouble controlling a lane by himself early game.

He really doesn't have much trouble controlling a lane. In 1v1, he can easily leap strike + attack to counter basically any skill harassment. TF actually has a much harder time laning early; against any competent harasser all he'll be able to do is occasionally toss gold card and toss wild cards to last hit.


I certainly won't deny, he doesn't really have anything close to a hard counter other then the standard stuns/lock down. He's certainly going up from the previous tier he was in.


He has no counter. He has damage on par with any other physcarry, even Yi, who's entire design philosophy is "Give this guy no relevant moves, but utterly absurd damage," a spammable stun, and enough HP to survive the full burst of two nukers, including their ult, and a very reliable getaway mechanism on a short cooldown.


I just don't see him as an early game threat the same way I see TF, even with some nerfs, as an early game threat.

He's not a huge early game threat... alone. TF isn't, either. TF is a threat because he can instantly make a 2v2 into a 2v3, or turn a fight you are getting away from into a fight you can't escape. In a straight out slugfest, TF really doesn't hurt that much. Laning with a partner, however, Jax will hit for craploads of damage and stun spammably... which is kind of what TF is good for doing. Yeah, he doesn't have the absurd ganking potential early game, but with the EXP curve changes that doesn't even provide TF with as concrete an advantage as it used to.

Poison_Fish
2010-02-28, 10:48 PM
I won't disagree with Jax being a problem in a slug fest. But again, his stun spamming can only occur if he's actively dodging an enemy. Thus, him attacking someone when creeps are around is an advantage to him. Frankly, he can get harassed easier then TF, as TF does have his range and wild cards advantage.

I'm just not seeing Jax as early game dangerous as TF. Late game, I'm pretty positive a Jax can leap upon a TF and tear him and several other characters apart. This I won't disagree with.

Milskidasith
2010-02-28, 11:49 PM
I won't disagree with Jax being a problem in a slug fest. But again, his stun spamming can only occur if he's actively dodging an enemy. Thus, him attacking someone when creeps are around is an advantage to him. Frankly, he can get harassed easier then TF, as TF does have his range and wild cards advantage.

I'm just not seeing Jax as early game dangerous as TF. Late game, I'm pretty positive a Jax can leap upon a TF and tear him and several other characters apart. This I won't disagree with.

Early game, he can leap on somebody and tear them apart. With a stun charged, he can leap in, AoE stun for the same damage TF stuns for (a bit less, but it's AoE stunning), with his leap dealing comparable damage to a TF wild card, and he hits a lot harder. Sure, he's in melee, but again, his leap and high movespeed give him amazing initiation, he can easily AoE stun, and his leap lets him get out. It's all about leap now; since he can use it to initiate or escape, he's never out of position.

Also, change "several other" to "all other." He's better 1v1 than any other hero now, except *maybe* a Udyr with sword of the divine. Maybe.

Brother Oni
2010-03-01, 07:52 AM
What's your opinion on the changes to the XP system? Since there seems to be quite some complaints about it... I haven't noticed much of a change to be honest, if only that being unlucky / lucky in the start doesn't have such a huge influence any more.

I like it - it means that if I mess up and die early, it doesn't have such a huge effect and my side can catch up later if they're overly fed.

Astrella
2010-03-03, 05:12 PM
Right, so I downloaded the EU client anyway, but for some reason it took 10 minutes for the installer to start up. (stupid Vista...)

So, I was looking at perhaps getting Udyr as soon as I've got enough IP. Can anyone enlighten me on his current viability, and more importantly is he enjoyable to play? (I play mostly tanks / support heroes.)

Milskidasith
2010-03-04, 01:50 PM
New patch notes are out!

Shaco was unnecessarily nerfed; the consensus on a Riot posted thread was that he sucked lategame, was way too powerful early game, and that AP shacos killing you with 6x JitB in the jungle was stupid.

So they nerfed his AP, his early game, and his lategame. Stupid Riot.

TF overhaul is here. He now has all his old spells, and a new one that's basically Jax and Heimer's ults combined. He's definitely more powerful, but they are tweaking the numbers down. What he lost in ganking potential he has gained in the ability to just plain outslug people now. He might not be the godlike ganker anymore, but he's certainly still going to pull his weight in teamfights. His AP ratios were dropped to be lower, but only to the rate they were before the most recent patch, and he's got a new blue card that lets him lane much better because it refills his mana.

Jax was nerfed, so his passive isn't quite as ungodly powerful.

Udyr had the "pop shield with bear, hit again and still stun" glitch (maybe?) fixed, so a character that was already unviable is nerfed, though you can just pop them all by using Phoenix or Tiger stance and switching to bear.

Sivir had a huge range nerf on her autoattacks, and thusly her ricochets. She's going to have a lot of trouble taking mid early game now, because her range is so absurdly short anybody with a ranged attack can harass her and her boomerang has always been fairly easy to dodge, especially since you can see it coming because her mana bar decreases a half second before it even comes out.

Alistar got nerfed, again. Still probably the best tank.

There are some other minor changes as well.

Milskidasith
2010-03-08, 03:33 PM
Well, I got a test realm account, woo!

Ezrael seems OK. He's absurdly difficult to play, it's hard to figure out exactly how to build him, and his ult lags the game up like hell, but he can build well, his Q is essentially a very long ranged autoattack so it can become a huge nuke with trinity force/lichbane, especially with armor penetration (brutalizer), his E is a good escape, and his W gives a *huge* attack speed buff/debuff. He creeps horribly, though, and his ult deals only OK damage and is more useful as an in fight nuke than actually using it for long range sniping because creeps will *always* get in the way.

Joran
2010-03-08, 03:45 PM
Anyone hoping for the release of Twisted Treeline at some point? The meta-game is completely different and melee carries (excepting Jax) are actually viable!

My group of friends tend to scrimmage in Twisted Treeline when we have six but play 5v5 when we have less than six.

Milskidasith
2010-03-08, 03:48 PM
Anyone hoping for the release of Twisted Treeline at some point? The meta-game is completely different and melee carries (excepting Jax) are actually viable!

My group of friends tend to scrimmage in Twisted Treeline when we have six but play 5v5 when we have less than six.

Wait, what? Jax is incredibly viable even in 5v5. He's the top character in the game.

Joran
2010-03-08, 03:53 PM
Wait, what? Jax is incredibly viable even in 5v5. He's the top character in the game.

No, no, I meant Jax is already viable; he doesn't require 3v3 to become viable like Tryndamere.

Yeah, I saw L0cust's newest tier list had him up as the top character. I'm not ready to buy it, just because Twisted Fate still does naughty, naughty things to the metagame.

P.S. About to splurge again and buy the rest of the 20 launch characters. There's too many heroes I want to try :( Sion works pretty well on a 3v3 map, but is okay in 5v5.

Astrella
2010-03-08, 03:55 PM
Any new on how much IP Ezrael is going to cost?

Milskidasith
2010-03-08, 04:06 PM
Any new on how much IP Ezrael is going to cost?

3150 or 6300.

Jax deals more damage than tf and hits harder. Also, jax's innate farming ability and the new exp curve make Tf's free ganks less powerful. Plus, Jax doesn't need a mejai's to hit hard.

Joran
2010-03-09, 04:19 PM
3150 or 6300.

Jax deals more damage than tf and hits harder. Also, jax's innate farming ability and the new exp curve make Tf's free ganks less powerful. Plus, Jax doesn't need a mejai's to hit hard.

I've yet to face a truly scary Jax in 5v5. Maybe we aren't feeding him enough or we're running a lot more disables than normal teams. I've faced some truly scary Twisted Fates.

At least for my group, we tend to value visibility of the map to set up ganks or to know when we can safely farm and push a lane. Having a character that can find every person on the map and then teleport is extremely valuable. Since none of my friends play Twisted nor do we pack Clairvoyance, we tend to rely on littering the map with wards.

BTW, does anyone pick up any of the stacking items on champion kills other than Mejai's?

Poison_Fish
2010-03-09, 04:22 PM
I've yet to face a truly scary Jax in 5v5. Maybe we aren't feeding him enough or we're running a lot more disables than normal teams. I've faced some truly scary Twisted Fates.

At least for my group, we tend to value visibility of the map to set up ganks or to know when we can safely farm and push a lane. Having a character that can find every person on the map and then teleport is extremely valuable.

BTW, does anyone pick up any of the stacking items on champion kills other than Mejai's?

I've done leviathan on Mundo. The change to making it two stacks per assists is nice (once it gets implemented), and getting to 20 stacks makes you extra hard to kill while running back and forth throwing cleavers into peoples faces.

Joran
2010-03-09, 05:11 PM
I've done leviathan on Mundo. The change to making it two stacks per assists is nice (once it gets implemented), and getting to 20 stacks makes you extra hard to kill while running back and forth throwing cleavers into peoples faces.

Yeah, I was thinking it might be valuable as an Alistar, although, I'm not sure where in my progression I'd get it. That's the issue with those stacking items; it's great to have early, but I tend not to have any money when playing tanks =P

Poison_Fish
2010-03-09, 05:16 PM
Yeah, I was thinking it might be valuable as an Alistar, although, I'm not sure where in my progression I'd get it. That's the issue with those stacking items; it's great to have early, but I tend not to have any money when playing tanks =P

Money is less of an issue with singed or Mundo I've found. Granted, with alistar, your more covering for your team mate while healing and sometimes getting last hits. Granted, in my view, Alistar really doesn't need much, and I got most games with just boots of swiftness and a locket.

Moklok
2010-03-09, 08:01 PM
Alistar doesn't need a Levi IMO. He needs support items that also help his tanking with HP and Armor. Locket, Soul Shroud, Frozen Heart, Aegis are all great items. Add Swiftness Boots and you are set. At least that's the way I prefer playing him. Lvl 8 locket = gg everytime.

Joran
2010-03-10, 01:21 AM
Alistar doesn't need a Levi IMO. He needs support items that also help his tanking with HP and Armor. Locket, Soul Shroud, Frozen Heart, Aegis are all great items. Add Swiftness Boots and you are set. At least that's the way I prefer playing him. Lvl 8 locket = gg everytime.

I tend to go:

Meki->Chalice
Mercury's Treads
Glacial Shroud -> Frozen Heart
Banshee's Veil or Aegis

Usually by Frozen Heart, game is over. I view my role more as a AoE Stun machine rather than a heal bot, so cooldown reduction + tankiness outweighs the Locket.

Doesn't the Locket cost a crap ton?

Milskidasith
2010-03-11, 12:10 AM
Jax + Mejais + new Sword of the Occult = ultimate pubstomper.

Joran
2010-03-11, 12:20 PM
Jax + Mejais + new Sword of the Occult = ultimate pubstomper.

What's your item build for Jax? I had some trouble with keeping people in melee range in 3v3, but the Lizard buff should fix that for me in 5v5.

Milskidasith
2010-03-11, 12:56 PM
What's your item build for Jax? I had some trouble with keeping people in melee range in 3v3, but the Lizard buff should fix that for me in 5v5.

Here are my general tips:

5v5: Take solo mid. Only *maybe* TF needs it more than you do. Well, you don't *need* it, but it makes you into a god.

My skill build is 21/9. Get 4 points in dodge and the 10% speed boost on dodges, it's pretty great.

Start with a Doran's Ring. Agressively leap at the enemy whenever it is off CD. Skill build should be Leap, Counter, Leap, Empower, Leap, Ult, Leap, Counter, Leap, Counter, Ult, Counter, Counter, Empower, Empower, Ult, Empower, Empower.

Get dodgeboots next, then Mejais. Then get a rageblade. Then get a Rylai's if your team lacks spammable slowing, or a Lichbane if you have such capabilities. Get the other one next. Game should be over by then, if not, get Zhonya's

3v3: Same concept, just get rid of the Mejais (possibly) just because it's a lot harder to get solo ganks and there are less ways to get kills.

Basic tactics: Early on, you should have over 750 HP at level 1 (well, with my rune page). Use this! If the enemy doesn't have any kind of regen item, they will be going back due to your leap, or unable to effectively farm without using long range skills only. Whenever you leap, Empower in midair (empowering beforehand means they'll have a split second extra to run) and always have one creep in the wave attacking you so you can get dodge procs. If you have a dodge proc, make sure to use it. The AP ratio is great; an empower + leap + counter will deal 400 damage or more at level 5, and once you get your ult you can proc it as well for around 700 damage total.

Once you get your rageblade and a farmed up mejais, you'll be nuking for a crapload and hitting absurdly fast. With a counterstrike, you'll be able to get six attacks off fairly easily, which means two ults, which means leaping at somebody you have a burst damage of over 1600 damage... and it will be off CD in a few seconds. Get golem buff, as well; you *really* want a much more spammable counterstrike. Only pure mages really need it more than you do, and, again, Jax is a godlike carry, so everything you can do to help him, you should.

If you are going AD Jax... you can't do anything compared to AP Jax. With the new Sword of the Occult, it may be slightly more viable, but Jax's ult and his AP ratios are so absurd that he gets almost as much sustained DPS, and much more burst, from each point of AP, and AP is cheaper. AP also gives a bit more HP, just because you get so much more of it.

Joran
2010-03-11, 02:06 PM
Wow, thanks for the complete guide, I'll try it out next time.

I assume you want magic pen runes for the red runes? I'm packing armor pen, scaling cooldown reduction, scaling hp, and flat hp quints, but I do have around 2.5K IP to blow on runes. I think I'll buy some magic pen runes for whenever I play a caster and just swap depending on which character I'm using.

Milskidasith
2010-03-11, 02:25 PM
Wow, thanks for the complete guide, I'll try it out next time.

I assume you want magic pen runes for the red runes? I'm packing armor pen, scaling cooldown reduction, scaling hp, and flat hp quints, but I do have around 2.5K IP to blow on runes. I think I'll buy some magic pen runes for whenever I play a caster and just swap depending on which character I'm using.

Actually, I use my generic physcarry runepage, though magic pen would be good as well.

Yellow dodge (best defensive runes for their cost, and amazing on dodge), flat health quints, flat mana blues (CDR would be better, but I like to agressively use mana early game so 100 extra MP, especially on noncaster champs with high mana costs, is very useful), and red attack speed.

Attack speed is actually *very* good on Jax even for magic, because it means more ult procs, but magic pen is probably better.

Thrawn183
2010-03-12, 03:57 PM
So I've been playing for a couple of days now and I just had my first match that lasted an entire hour. Pretty intense. Say what you will about feeding, but if you manage to go half an hour without dying, you can easily run into problems of really, really needing a bathroom break.

toasty
2010-03-13, 01:18 AM
So I've been playing for a couple of days now and I just had my first match that lasted an entire hour. Pretty intense. Say what you will about feeding, but if you manage to go half an hour without dying, you can easily run into problems of really, really needing a bathroom break.

You can just go back to the base and sit there for a minute... :smalltongue:

But if you think that's bad... when I play DotA I will generally sit in the cafe for three hours, then spend an half hour hanging out, then I will walk to my to my friends house (15 minute walk) then I will go the bathroom. Often I need to go to the bathroom after... 2 hours.

I dunno if that's cool or stupid, but its how I roll. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, I played Corki and I don't like him. I understand why he's such a good hero, but I don't like him.

And I've realized I need to mess around with some items other than the standard build items. There are a lot of cool items in this game I don't know about.