PDA

View Full Version : • The Time Has Come [3.5e] [Base Class] •



Rithaniel
2010-01-20, 03:21 AM
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/8605/fdesdctevg.jpg
Archemedias Titan, an Elven Time Walker.


Time Walker

Time walkers are a type of people who have been born with the unexplainable capability to envelope themselves in utter non-existance and actually exist 'outside' of time. While in this state, they still exist in time, and they're still swept along in it's current, but they have the power to see and understand it's impossible rhythm to the degree that they can actual reach out and twist it to their fancy. Upon the field of battle, a time walker is a seemingly unkillable foe that can slip away and recover from nearly any attack, no matter how inexplicable it may be.


Making a Time Walker

Time walkers are stalwart warriors upon the battlefield who can seemingly take any kind of attack and keep going, considering that time itself seems to work backwards upon them, knitting fresh wounds together into seamless scar tissue, and brushing away bruises as though they were nothing but dust. Not to mentions that they can move faster that practically any other warrior, and tear through the ranks of their enemies with exceeding ease and perfectly timed out precision.

Abilities: To a time walker, Wisdom and Constitution are the two most important ability scores, considering that they need Wisdom to make the most of the majority of their class features, and they need Constituion to get as many hit points as possible. Next, in order of importance to a time walker, come Dexterity and Strength, so that they can increase both their AC and their bonus to attack rolls. Lastly, in order of importance to a time walker, come Intelligence and Charisma, though, both can be found useful in a given situation.

Races: Any

Alignment: Any

Starting Gold: 4d6×10 gp (140 gp).

Starting Age: Simple, As rogue.


Hit Die: d10
{table=head]Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | Speed Bonus
1st | +0 | +0 | +2 | +2 | Flow of Time, Walk the Aeons | +0 ft.
2nd | +1 | +0 | +3 | +3 | Temporal Strike +1 | +0 ft.
3rd | +2 | +1 | +3 | +3 | Fast Healing 1 | +10 ft.
4th | +3 | +1 | +4 | +4 | Temporal Strike +2 | +10 ft.
5th | +3 | +1 | +4 | +4 | Delay, Time Sync | +10 ft.
6th | +4 | +2 | +5 | +5 | Fast Healing 2, Temporal Strike +3 | +20 ft.
7th | +5 | +2 | +5 | +5 | Annul, Moment Stop | +20 ft.
8th | +6/+1 | +2 | +6 | +6 | Temporal Strike +4 | +20 ft.
9th | +6/+1 | +3 | +6 | +6 | Fast Healing 3 | +30 ft.
10th | +7/+2 | +3 | +7 | +7 | Greater Delay, Greater Flow of Time, Temporal Strike +5 | +30 ft.
11th | +8/+3 | +3 | +7 | +7 | Fearless | +30 ft.
12th | +9/+4 | +4 | +8 | +8 | Fast Healing 4, Temporal Strike +6 | +40 ft.
13th | +9/+4 | +4 | +8 | +8 | Renewal | +40 ft.
14th | +10/+5 | +4 | +9 | +9 | Improved Moment Stop, Temporal Strike +7 | +40 ft.
15th | +11/+6/+1 | +5 | +9 | +9 | Fast Healing 5 | +50 ft.
16th | +12/+7/+2 | +5 | +10 | +10 | Temporal Strike +8 | +50 ft.
17th | +12/+7/+2 | +5 | +10 | +10 | Foresight | +50 ft.
18th | +13/+8/+3 | +6 | +11 | +11 | Fast Healing 6, Temporal Strike +9 | +60 ft.
19th | +14/+9/+4 | +6 | +11 | +11 | Dichotomy | +60 ft.
20th | +15/+10/+5 | +6 | +12 | +12 | Ideal Flow of Time, Temporal Strike +10 | +60 ft.

[/table]
Class Skills (4 + Int modifier per level, ×4 at 1st level)
Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex).


Class Features

All of the following are class features of the Time Walker.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A time walker is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor and shields, but not tower shields.

Flow of Time (Ex): A time walker is a time walker for one reason alone, and that reason is the fact that he can encase himself in non-existance, and move through time in a way that others cannot even comprehend, almost becoming one with the flow of time itself. A time walker can become one with the flow of time a number of times per day equal to half his total class level + 2. While using the flow of time ability, a time walker temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Dexterity, a +4 bonus to Wisdom, and gains the ability to reroll a single d20 roll per round. This reroll can be made on any roll that the time walker makes, whether or not it's on his turn or not, though, only a single reroll can be attempted per round. This reroll must be declared before the result of the d20 roll has been revealed, and must be accepted, even if it's worse than the first. A single usage of the flow of time lasts for a number of rounds equal to 2 + the character’s (newly improved) Wisdom modifier. A time walker may prematurely end the use of the flow of time. At the end of the use of the flow of time, the time walker loses the modifiers, looses the ability to reroll dice, and becomes dazed (can’t take actions) for two rounds as his mind attempts to readjust itself to the world after comprehending the flow of time (unless he is a 20th-level time walker, at which point this limitation no longer applies; see below).

Walk the Aeons (Ex): A time walker has it within his power to comprehend time on many different levels, allowing him to move with precision that few can comprehend. A time walker adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) as an insight bonus to his AC. If the time walker is wearing a piece of armor that has a maximum Dex bonus, then this insight bonus is restricted by this maximum Dex bonus in the same way their Dex bonus is restricted by it.

Temporal Strike: A time walker is a man who has it within his power to see time, and even affect it, this ability truly makes him a dangerous foe upon the battlefield. At second level a time walker gains the ability to make the first attack he makes in any given round a temporal strike by slashing through the temporal existence of a creature instead of it's physical existence, this attack has a +1 distortion bonus to both attack roll and damage and ignores all effects that grant miss chances, such as concealment. Additionally, on a successful temporal strike the target becomes fatigued for a number of rounds equal to the distortion bonus. If a fatigued character is struck by a time walkers temporal strike ability, then they do not become exhausted, and the duration of the fatigue overlaps. This distortion bonus increase by +1 at every second level after second (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, etc.).

Fast Healing (Ex): Time grants many blessing upon a time walker, and one of the main blessing that it grants is the unbelievablly fast regeneration of flesh wounds. At third level, A time walker regains hit points at an extraordinarally fast rate, regaining 1 hit point per round, as long as he has at least 1 hit point remaining. The ammount that the time walker heals each round increases by 1 every 3 levels after third (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th).

Fast Movement (Ex): A time walker has it within his power to seemingly slow down time around him, yet still remain going at the same speed. At third level, a time walker gains an enhancement bonus to his speed, as shown on Table: The Time Walker.

Delay: Time is something that is rarely noticed, until you lose some of it. At fifth level a time walker gains the ability to make a single attack as a standard action, if this attack lands then no damage is dealt, instead, the target of the attack drops one place in order of initiative.

Time Sync (Ex): Time is something that nothing can hold off, not matter how resolute it may be. At fifth level, a time walker can designate a single attack each round as a temporal rip. A temporal rip attack acts like a normal attack, except it goes against the targets touch AC.

Annul (Ex): A time walker eventually learns to channel the healing powers that time blesses him with to an even greater degree. At seventh level, at the end of any round that the time walker is using the flow of time class feature, but has not used his reroll for the round, he heals a number of hit points equal to 5 + his Wisdom modifier.

Moment Stop: A time walkers reactions are unbelievablly fast, and they can seem to be able take steps inbetween the passage of one moment and the next. At seventh level, a time walker gains the ability to take one additional 5 ft. free step as an immediate action that does not actually count against the total immediate actions or swift actions he can take in a round. If this ability is used after an opponent has moved to a square where they threaten the time walker, but before the opponent makes an attack, then the opponent counts as having used his move action for the turn unless he has the spring attack feat and his total movement doesn't exceed this total speed. This ability can only be used once every 1d4 rounds.

Greater Delay: A time walker can seem to rip apart a beings timeline in and of itself at times, making them forget that time is even flowing for long moments. At tenth level a time walker gains the ability to make a single attack as a standard action, if this attack lands then no damage is dealt, instead, the target must make a Will save (DC 10 + half the time walker's Hit Die + the time walker's Wisdom modifier) or skip their next turn.

Greater Flow of Time (Ex): A time walker soon masters his ability to travel through time in the unusual way that he can to such a degree that hardly nothing can keep up with him. At tenth level, a time walker’s bonuses to Dexterity and Wisdom during the use of his flow of time class feature each increase to +6, though, he is still dazed for two rounds after the use of the flow of time class feature ends.

Fearless: At eleventh level a time walker learns to see the future pass without even attempting to do so, and to face the world before him with the knowledge that there is nothing he cannot see coming, becoming immune to all fear effects.

Renewal (Ex): A time walker eventually manages to exert such a degree of control over the flow of time that he can actually seem to reverse it and instantaneously heal himself, should he be properly focused. At thirteenth level, a time walker gains the ability to sit down and meditate for an hour, and turn all of his mental control over the flow of time, forming as tight a grip upon it's passage as he can muster. After the time walker has managed to meditate in this way without being interupted for a full hour, then he can resume normal behavior and still keep his grip on the reigns of time. The time walker does not lose this focus for any reason other than expending it. The may expend this focus at any point in time afterwards as a free action and heal himself a total number of hit points equal to his Wisdom modifier (at the time of expending the focus) × his time walker level. The time walker can take this free action and heal himself at any point, even if it's just a split second after he has taken enough damage to fall unconscious or die.

Improved Moment Stop: Time walkers have the ability to move farther than most other beings in instances that few others can even comprehend. At fourteenth level a time walker gains the ability to move at their full base land speed as an immediate action that does not actually count against the total immediate actions or swift actions he can take in a round (provoking attacks of opportunity as normal). If this ability is used after an opponent has moved to a square where they threaten the time walker, but before the opponent makes an attack, then the opponent counts as having used his move action for the turn unless he has the spring attack feat and his total movement doesn't exceed this total speed. This ability does not replace the moment stop class feature, but only either this class feature or moment stop can be used in a given round. This ability can only be used once every 1d4 rounds.

Foresight (Ex): A time walker eventually becomes so incrediblly aware of the flow of time, that he can comprehend moments and events before they even come to take place. At seventeenth level, a time walker may act normally in a surprise round, no matter the circumstances, the time walker is also never caught flat-footed and recieves his Wisdom modifier as an insight bonus attack rolls and saving throws.

Dichotomy (Ex): A time walker is someone who is inherently a piece of the existance of time, and this fact makes it so that they can grip the flow of time and change it, tear it beyond it's true limits, and reconstruct the fabric of reality. At ninteenth level, a time walker gains the ability to take a standard action and utterly decimate the flow of time, tearing into other timelines for an instant and making realities cross on a miniscule level for the blink of eye. During the instant that timelines cross during this standard action, the time walker stretches probability to the limit and exists in two realities simultaneously. Instantly after doing this, probability re-orients itself, and casuality begins to play a role in both realities. Of course, the fabric of existence cannot abide the existence of a single object in two timelines, and so a backlash occurs, causing two of the same object to exist in a single timeline.

After this standard action has been resolved, a single duplicate of the time walker comes into play in a single square adjacent to the time walker (this square is of the time walker's choice). This duplicate is entirely sentient and is generally separate from the original time walker; anything that happens to him does not affect the original. Though, for all intents and purposes (such as an item only responding to a particular person), the duplicate is the same being as the original. The duplicate has the exact same spells per day (from any class), special qualities, or other traits that the original had when this ability was used. Each version of time walker has maximum hit points equal to ˝ of the maximum hit points that the original had when he used dichotomy (rounded down). For the purposes of equipment, however, the duplicate only has what materials that the original had that didn't put the original over a medium load. Both magical and mundane materials are copied, but living material that is not part of the time walker is not. Items with limited uses, such as potions and wands, deplete from the same source, as the consumption of one causes the universe to adjust and delete both. Both versions of the time walker are dazed for one round after the duplicate is created. If either version of the time walker dies, then the remaining versions maximum hit points goes back up to what is normal for him (please note that the duplicates actual hit points are unaffected by this, only his maximum hit points are), and he can use this ability again after 24 hours have passed. This ability cannot be used if more than one version of time walker exists and are alive in the same timeline.

Ideal Flow of Time (Ex): A time walker eventually perfects his ability to travel through time while being outside of time, to the point that he doesn't even flinch from removing himself from that state. At twentieth level, a time walker’s bonuses to Dexterity and Wisdom during the use of his flow of time class feature each increase to +8, additionally, he is no longer dazed at all after the use of the flow of time class feature ends.


Epic Time Walkers

Hit Die: d10
{table=head]Level | Speed Bonus | Special
21st | +70 ft. | Fast Healing 7, Greater Moment Stop
22nd | +70 ft. | Temporal Strike +11
23rd | +70 ft. | Bonus Feat
24th | +80 ft. | Fast Healing 8, Temporal Strike +12
25th | +80 ft. |
26th | +80 ft. | Bonus Feat, Temporal Strike +13
27th | +90 ft. | Fast Healing 9
28th | +90 ft. | Temporal Strike +14
29th | +90 ft. | Bonus Feat
30th | +100 ft. | Eternal, Fast Healing 10, Sovereign Flow of Time, Temporal Strike +15 [/table]
4 + Int modifier skill points per level.

Fast Healing: The ammount that the time walker's fast healing heals each round increases by 1 every 3 levels after eighteenth (21st, 24th, 27th, etc.).

Fast Movement (Ex): A time walker's enhancement bonus to his speed increases after 20th level as shown on Table:The Epic Time Walker.

Greater Moment Stop: At 21st level a time Walker gains the ability to move up to 4 times their full base land speed as an immediate action that does not actually count against the total immediate actions or swift actions he can take in a round (not provoking attacks of opportunity). If this ability is used after an opponent has moved to a square where they threaten the time walker, but before the opponent makes an attack, then the opponent counts as having used his move action for the turn unless he has the spring attack feat and his total movement doesn't exceed this total speed. This ability does not replace the moment stop or the improved moment stop class features, but only either this class feature, moment stop, or improved moment stop can be used in a given round. This ability can only be used once every 1d4 rounds.

Temporal Strike: The distortion bonus for a time walkers temporal strike increase by 1 at every even level after 20th (22nd, 24th, 26th, etc.).

Eternal (Ex): At thirtieth level, a time walker become one with time, blurring the lines of conciousness and mere existance. At this point, the time walker no longer ages, becoming effectively immortal. Additionally, the time walker becomes immune to ability drain, death from massive damage, and disease as time heals his body so rapidly that things can't even seem to damage him for more than a second. Also, the time walker no longer has to sleep and is immune to sleep effects, since his body is kept refreshed with hours of sleep at every plausible moment in time

Sovereign Flow of Time (Ex): To a time walker of a certain caliber, time is merely a tool to be contorted to their every whim, no matter how slight, no matter how distant it may be. At thirtieth level, a time walker’s bonuses to Dexterity and Wisdom during the use of his flow of time class feature each increase to +10. Additionally, the time walker makes the second roll of any dice he rerolls while under the effects of his flow of time class feature with a +10 competence bonus.

Bonus Feats: The epic time walker gains a bonus feat (selected from the list of epic time walker bonus feats) every 3 levels after 20th.

Epic Time Walker Bonus Feat List: Blinding Speed, Dire Charge, Epic Dodge, Epic Reflexes, Epic Speed, Epic Will, Fast Healing, Great Dexterity, Great Wisdom, Polyglot, Superior Initiative

Rithaniel
2010-01-20, 03:26 AM
Playing a Time Walker

Religion: The ability to comprehened the flow of time and it's inexplicable rhythym generally changes a mans outlook on religion. Some time walkers could possibly scorn the concept of laying themselves down before an ideal or a belief, since they have seen the true of nature of all reality, and so, nothing could possibly be higher than themselves, in their own minds. Another time walker could see through history, and see the manner in which a god came to be, possbily being swayed to follow such an entity in the process.

Other Classes: Time walkers have an extremely close connection with a matter of reality that some beings speed their entire lives attempting to merely comprehend. This fact makes it very easy for wizards and other intellectual classes to get along with them. On the other hand, this same connection with the essence of time can only be effectively used in combat, and this inherently leads to them being able to understand the flow of a battle to a greater degree. This fact tends to help a time walker become greater friends with fighters or barbarians.

Combat: Time walkers have an extremely unique role in battle. They tend to bounce around the field of battle, being generally unpredictable, and making single, heavy blows that nearly knock opponents out of the game entirely. On the other hand, a time walker could fill the role of a support character, who juggles opponents completely out of the battle, and takes hit after hit after hit, yet keeps going, and giving the opponent a fight they more than likely wont win. Honestly, a time walker can turn the battle on it's head at any given moment.

Advancement: Sometimes, a time walker manages to discover different abilities he can muster with his passage through time, and seeks unusual paths to power. For example, a certain time walker could discover how to trail through time in a way, and begin taking levels in temporal dancer. Another time walker could discover that, by travelling through time, he can stretch and break it to his every whim, and take a few levels in moment breaker. On the other hand, a time walker could seek to progress in slightly different ways, and may take levels in horizon walker, duelist, or assassin.


Time Walkers in the World


“ Um... What time is it? ”
—Demin Tell, Half-Elf Time Walker

Time walkers rarely fit into roles that would be considered 'normal', instead finding themselves as assassins, leaders, or wise men. Due to this fact, a time walker is usually found in places of wonder, or horror. From the truely terrible choas of the battlefield, to the pristinly clean precision of a king's halls, they can be found anywhere, and everywhere. Though, sometimes, a time walker may find a way to slip between the cracks in the world, and settle down, in a quite place. When this happens, a time walker will still find the world around them to be a wonderous place, since they can see it for what it truely is.

Daily Life: Day to day life for a time walker can be a good bit more interesting for them than for another creature, considering that they have the ability to see and understand a days passage in ways that few can understand. A paticular time walker could enjoy spending his time merely watching it's flow slip through the world, just as another person would enjoy watching a waterfall flow. Though, sometimes, a time walker could simply veiw the flow of time as a backdrop to existence, and hardly even notice it, being too busy with the other matters in his life.

Notables: Mason Uregai, Male Human Time Walker: fought off the onslought of an entire army of celestial beings for a month.

Tania Jewel, Female Wild Elf Time Walker: led an expedition to kill a family of evil prismatic dragons that had been destroying the wild.

Darrell Ix, Male Azer Time Walker: has percieved all of time, and is in constant understanding of it.

Organizations: Time walkers are not directly tied to any kind of organization, considering that their ability result from the inherent ability to comprehend time. Though, it isn't uncommon for an organization to seek to have a time walker or two amongst their ranks, considering that time walkers are very powerful entities, from their ability in combat, to their insight about the nature of things. Although, on occasion, there may arrise a situation where multiple time walkers are drawn to a paticular place. In such a case, these time walkers could find themselves enjoying the company of others of their kind, and in turn, band together to form a guild or organization purley of time walkers.

NPC Reactions: Time walkers are difficult to notice most of the time, and can usually pass as just an ordinary person in most situations. Though, should a time walker show what they are, whether by moving through time, or speaking about the inner workings of time, they tend to be more easily spotted, since their very manner of existance is unusual. When an NPC actually realizes that a person is a time walker, they usually regard that person with different degree's of respect, awe, and fear, depending entirely on the person in question.


Time Walker Lore

Characters with ranks in gather information can research time walkers to learn more about them. When a character makes a skill check, read or paraphrase the following, including information from lower DCs.

Gather Information
{table=head]DC | Result
5 | Time walkers can actually percieve the very flow of time.
10 | Time walkers can turn back the flow of time and undo it's effects.
15 | Time walkers can move through time yet be outside of it at the same time.
20 | Characters who get this result can know the name and location of a specific time walker and any item related to them.[/table]

Owrtho
2010-01-20, 03:53 AM
The sun was shining on the sea,
Shining with all his might:
He did his very best to make
The billows smooth and bright--
And this was odd, because it was
The middle of the night.


The moon was shining sulkily,
Because she thought the sun
Had got no business to be there
After the day was done--
"It's very rude of him," she said,
"To come and spoil the fun!"


The sea was wet as wet could be,
The sands were dry as dry.
You could not see a cloud, because
No cloud was in the sky:
No birds were flying overhead--
There were no birds to fly.


The Walrus and the Carpenter
Were walking close at hand;
They wept like anything to see
Such quantities of sand:
"If this were only cleared away,"
They said, "it would be grand!"


"If seven maids with seven mops
Swept it for half a year.
Do you suppose," the Walrus said,
"That they could get it clear?"
"I doubt it," said the Carpenter,
And shed a bitter tear.


"O Oysters, come and walk with us!"
The Walrus did beseech.
"A pleasant walk, a pleasant talk,
Along the briny beach:
We cannot do with more than four,
To give a hand to each."


The eldest Oyster looked at him,
But never a word he said:
The eldest Oyster winked his eye,
And shook his heavy head--
Meaning to say he did not choose
To leave the oyster-bed.


But four young Oysters hurried up,
All eager for the treat:
Their coats were brushed, their faces washed,
Their shoes were clean and neat--
And this was odd, because, you know,
They hadn't any feet.


Four other Oysters followed them,
And yet another four;
And thick and fast they came at last,
And more, and more, and more--
All hopping through the frothy waves,
And scrambling to the shore.


The Walrus and the Carpenter
Walked on a mile or so,
And then they rested on a rock
Conveniently low:
And all the little Oysters stood
And waited in a row.


"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
Of cabbages--and kings--
And why the sea is boiling hot--
And whether pigs have wings."


"But wait a bit," the Oysters cried,
"Before we have our chat;
For some of us are out of breath,
And all of us are fat!"
"No hurry!" said the Carpenter.
They thanked him much for that.


"A loaf of bread," the Walrus said,
"Is what we chiefly need:
Pepper and vinegar besides
Are very good indeed--
Now if you're ready, Oysters dear,
We can begin to feed."


"But not on us!" the Oysters cried,
Turning a little blue.
"After such kindness, that would be
A dismal thing to do!"
"The night is fine," the Walrus said.
"Do you admire the view?


"It was so kind of you to come!
And you are very nice!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"Cut us another slice:
I wish you were not quite so deaf--
I've had to ask you twice!"


"It seems a shame," the Walrus said,
"To play them such a trick,
After we've brought them out so far,
And made them trot so quick!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"The butter's spread too thick!"


"I weep for you," the Walrus said:
"I deeply sympathize."
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size,
Holding his pocket-handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.


"O Oysters," said the Carpenter,
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?'
But answer came there none--
And this was scarcely odd, because
They'd eaten every one.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Looks like it might be good though, and I'll try to read through it when I have more time.

Owrtho

Rithaniel
2010-01-20, 05:37 PM
The sun was shining on the sea,
Shining with all his might:
He did his very best to make
The billows smooth and bright--
And this was odd, because it was
The middle of the night.


The moon was shining sulkily,
Because she thought the sun
Had got no business to be there
After the day was done--
"It's very rude of him," she said,
"To come and spoil the fun!"


The sea was wet as wet could be,
The sands were dry as dry.
You could not see a cloud, because
No cloud was in the sky:
No birds were flying overhead--
There were no birds to fly.


The Walrus and the Carpenter
Were walking close at hand;
They wept like anything to see
Such quantities of sand:
"If this were only cleared away,"
They said, "it would be grand!"


"If seven maids with seven mops
Swept it for half a year.
Do you suppose," the Walrus said,
"That they could get it clear?"
"I doubt it," said the Carpenter,
And shed a bitter tear.


"O Oysters, come and walk with us!"
The Walrus did beseech.
"A pleasant walk, a pleasant talk,
Along the briny beach:
We cannot do with more than four,
To give a hand to each."


The eldest Oyster looked at him,
But never a word he said:
The eldest Oyster winked his eye,
And shook his heavy head--
Meaning to say he did not choose
To leave the oyster-bed.


But four young Oysters hurried up,
All eager for the treat:
Their coats were brushed, their faces washed,
Their shoes were clean and neat--
And this was odd, because, you know,
They hadn't any feet.


Four other Oysters followed them,
And yet another four;
And thick and fast they came at last,
And more, and more, and more--
All hopping through the frothy waves,
And scrambling to the shore.


The Walrus and the Carpenter
Walked on a mile or so,
And then they rested on a rock
Conveniently low:
And all the little Oysters stood
And waited in a row.


"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
Of cabbages--and kings--
And why the sea is boiling hot--
And whether pigs have wings."


"But wait a bit," the Oysters cried,
"Before we have our chat;
For some of us are out of breath,
And all of us are fat!"
"No hurry!" said the Carpenter.
They thanked him much for that.


"A loaf of bread," the Walrus said,
"Is what we chiefly need:
Pepper and vinegar besides
Are very good indeed--
Now if you're ready, Oysters dear,
We can begin to feed."


"But not on us!" the Oysters cried,
Turning a little blue.
"After such kindness, that would be
A dismal thing to do!"
"The night is fine," the Walrus said.
"Do you admire the view?


"It was so kind of you to come!
And you are very nice!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"Cut us another slice:
I wish you were not quite so deaf--
I've had to ask you twice!"


"It seems a shame," the Walrus said,
"To play them such a trick,
After we've brought them out so far,
And made them trot so quick!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"The butter's spread too thick!"


"I weep for you," the Walrus said:
"I deeply sympathize."
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size,
Holding his pocket-handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.


"O Oysters," said the Carpenter,
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?'
But answer came there none--
And this was scarcely odd, because
They'd eaten every one.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Looks like it might be good though, and I'll try to read through it when I have more time.

Owrtho

Oh, no worries, I've actually been looking for a copy of that poem lately. XD

Though, please, comments are welcome.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-01-20, 05:52 PM
More in-depth analysis to come, but I'll be damned if this isn't the best noncasting dip for a druid evar. Level one is just insanely good for anyone who uses (and abuses) Wis.

Side-note: From a glance, this really, really seems more like a PrC than a base class.

Bibliomancer
2010-01-20, 05:53 PM
An imaginative and well-thought out concept, and excellent implementation. I'm not sure about the balance of it, but it might be interesting to attempt to include some Diamond Mind maneuvers if other abilities are deleted or removed (or reviewers more experienced than myself think that it needs a boost relative to casters, which, ultimately, everything does)

One small thing that I noticed: it currently says that you get Greater Delay at 5th level, when I believe you mean 10th.

If you don't mind, I might borrow it for an NPC or two in my campaign. I have been trying to think of ways to make the continent of Xen'drik seem more mysterious, and this would be excellent, given the nature of the magical cataclysm that occurred there millennia ago.


More in-depth analysis to come, but I'll be damned if this isn't the best noncasting dip for a druid evar. Level one is just insanely good for anyone who uses (and abuses) Wis.

Side-note: From a glance, this really, really seems more like a PrC than a base class.

This loophole is a relevant one, but it probably isn't worth losing a caster level. Perhaps it could be fixed by making it impossible to cast spells while in Flow of Time?

Hyooz
2010-01-20, 05:56 PM
Ok, first off: This is seriously powerful. Like, oh my god. Level 1 is one of the best dip levels I've seen in the world. It just gets worse from there. When I have time, I'll go more indepth ability by ability, but for now, holy crap this is powerful.

Second: This should be a PrC. I don't say this because of power, but because of flavor. Typically, base classes are pretty generic when it comes to what they can do and how they do it. A base class is something that people can train in somewhat basically and you'll see a fair number of them in the world. Unless your campaign world makes these things possible on a grand scale, this fits better as a PrC. Just look at the base classes that exist and consider the flavor that goes into them. Even the more specific ones (Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, etc) are broad in their flavor, powers, and proliferation. I can believe that sects of Beguilers exist in some country's army. I can't believe that someone can train to become a Time Walker.

Eurus
2010-01-20, 05:59 PM
It might be smart to say that Walk the Aeons doesn't stack with other ways to apply wisdom to AC.

Gorgondantess
2010-01-20, 06:28 PM
Well, level 1 seems to give essentially rage and monk's wis-to-AC... front loaded, but not too bad. Level 2 is where it gets scary. Ability to make the first attack every round a touch attack? That's powerful for an iterative attacker, but I would hands down take 2 levels of this before, say, swordsage- strikes are generally just one attack, thus every attack they make (essentially) gets +1 to attack and damage, and is a touch attack.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-01-20, 06:30 PM
Thrice Dead Cat's typical Review, Ability by ability, hour by hour!




Time Walker



Hit Die: d10

Seems a bit high, considering that this does not look like your usual frontliner. Whatevs.


Class Skills (4 + Int modifier per level, ×4 at 1st level)
Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex).

Skills are whatever. It has Spot and Listen, so that's good. 4+ is a little light, since intelligence is jank to the class. Eh.



Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A time walker is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor and shields, but not tower shields.

Not bad proficiencies. Not much to say really.



Flow of Time (Ex): A time walker is a time walker for one reason alone, and that reason is the fact that he can encase himself in non-existance, and move through time in a way that others cannot even comprehend, almost becoming one with the flow of time itself. A time walker can become one with the flow of time a number of times per day equal to half his total class level + 2. While using the flow of time ability, a time walker temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Dexterity, a +4 bonus to Wisdom, and gains the ability to reroll a single d20 roll per round. This reroll can be made on any roll that the time walker makes, whether or not it's on his turn or not, though, only a single reroll can be attempted per round. This reroll must be declared before the result of the d20 roll has been revealed, and must be accepted, even if it's worse than the first. A single usage of the flow of time lasts for a number of rounds equal to 2 + the character’s (newly improved) Wisdom modifier. A time walker may prematurely end the use of the flow of time. At the end of the use of the flow of time, the time walker loses the modifiers, looses the ability to reroll dice, and becomes dazed (can’t take actions) for two rounds as his mind attempts to readjust itself to the world after comprehending the flow of time (unless he is a 20th-level time walker, at which point this limitation no longer applies; see below).

...And we have hit the motherload of class abilities. For the low, low cost of one level you get a 3/day ability that boosts Dex and Wis for a little more than Wis modifier rounds AND get a free reroll on any d20 1/round? Sign. Me. Up.



Walk the Aeons (Ex): A time walker has it within his power to comprehend time on many different levels, allowing him to move with precision that few can comprehend. A time walker adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) as an insight bonus to his AC. If the time walker is wearing a piece of armor that has a maximum Dex bonus, then this insight bonus is restricted by this maximum Dex bonus in the same way their Dex bonus is restricted by it.

I think I hear a bear moaning in the background from ecstasy. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm) Admittedly worse than the Monk's AC ability, but, more importantly this one is not reproducible elsewhere.


Temporal Strike: A time walker is a man who has it within his power to see time, and even affect it, this ability truly makes him a dangerous foe upon the battlefield. At second level a time walker gains the ability to make the first attack he makes in any given round a temporal strike by slashing through the temporal existence of a creature instead of it's physical existence, this attack is considered a touch attack and has a +1 distortion bonus to both attack roll and damage, additionally, on a successful temporal strike the target becomes fatigued for a number of rounds equal to the distortion bonus. If a fatigued character is struck by a time walkers temporal strike ability, then they do not become exhausted, and the duration of the fatigue overlaps. This distortion bonus increase by +1 at every second level after second (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, etc.).

So, starting at level two, I whack again and now he has issues returning the favor? Yes, please. Fatigue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#fatigued) may not be the best of abilities, but still imposing -1 to hit, damage, and AC is good. Also makes other characters have an easier time getting them exhausted.

EDIT: And it's a touch attack? Well, hot diggity daffodils, enjoy full power attack! (Although, to be fair, I would rather go Unarmed Swordsage 2 as a dip midgame and net Dex to damage, rather than trying to get strength up to the point where power attack becomes practical.)


Fast Healing (Ex): Time grants many blessing upon a time walker, and one of the main blessing that it grants is the unbelievablly fast regeneration of flesh wounds. At third level, A time walker regains hit points at an extraordinarally fast rate, regaining 1 hit point per round, as long as he has at least 1 hit point remaining. The ammount that the time walker heals each round increases by 1 every 3 levels after third (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th).

Getting this from a class is good. Getting this at level three on a class is better. Say goodbye to wands of vigor, you've got one built in! Other than that, doesn't really do much.


Fast Movement (Ex): A time walker has it within his power to seemingly slow down time around him, yet still remain going at the same speed. At third level, a time walker gains an enhancement bonus to his speed, as shown on Table: The Time Walker.

Whatever.


Delay: Time is something that is rarely noticed, until you lose some of it. At fifth level a time walker gains the ability to make a single attack as a standard action, if this attack lands then no damage is dealt, instead, the target of the attack drops one place in order of initiative.

So, as a standard action, at 5th level I get to make my enemy go from 12 Init to 11? Yawn.


Annul (Ex): A time walker eventually learns to channel the healing powers that time blesses him with to an even greater degree. At seventh level, at the end of any round that the time walker is using the flow of time class feature, but has not used his reroll for the round, he heals a number of hit points equal to 5 + his Wisdom modifier.

Haha! Cute, but will probably never actually be used. Seriously, not using the free reroll you've had for seven levels now? You've got to be kidding me. See also: you have fast healing already.


Moment Stop: A time walkers reactions are unbelievablly fast, and they can seem to be able take steps inbetween the passage of one moment and the next. At seventh level, a time walker gains the ability to take one additional 5 ft. free step as an immediate action that does not actually count against the total immediate actions or swift actions he can take in a round. If this ability is used after an opponent has moved to a square where they threaten the time walker, but before the opponent makes an attack, then the opponent counts as having used his move action for the turn unless he has the spring attack feat and his total movement doesn't exceed this total speed. This ability can only be used once every 1d4 rounds.

So, this is wordy and good. It may simply be easier to call it a free action 1/round with the same recharge time. Stopping attacks before they start is wonderful. Kind of like a more reasonable Abrupt Jaunt, not that that's saying much.


Greater Delay: A time walker can seem to rip apart a beings timeline in and of itself at times, making them forget that time is even flowing for long moments. At fifth level a time walker gains the ability to make a single attack as a standard action, if this attack lands then no damage is dealt, instead, the target must make a Will save (DC 10 + half the time walker's Hit Die + the time walker's Wisdom modifier) or skip their next turn.

Like the ability you got five levels ago, except, actually useful. May reach insane levels of "good" when combined with some sort of "free" standard action set-up or teamwork. In and of itself? Probably fine at this point.


Greater Flow of Time (Ex): A time walker soon masters his ability to travel through time in the unusual way that he can to such a degree that hardly nothing can keep up with him. At tenth level, a time walker’s bonuses to Dexterity and Wisdom during the use of his flow of time class feature each increase to +6, though, he is still dazed for two rounds after the use of the flow of time class feature ends.

Like Greater Rage, but different. Nothing much else to say here.


Fearless: At eleventh level a time walker learns to see the future pass without even attempting to do so, and to face the world before him with the knowledge that there is nothing he cannot see coming, becoming immune to all fear effects.

Thankfully this comes at the same time as Greater Flow of Time and Temporal Strike +5, otherwise this would be a dead level.


Renewal (Ex): A time walker eventually manages to exert such a degree of control over the flow of time that he can actually seem to reverse it and instantaneously heal himself, should he be properly focused. At thirteenth level, a time walker gains the ability to sit down and meditate for an hour, and turn all of his mental control over the flow of time, forming as tight a grip upon it's passage as he can muster. After the time walker has managed to meditate in this way without being interupted for a full hour, then he can resume normal behavior and still keep his grip on the reigns of time. The time walker does not lose this focus for any reason other than expending it. The may expend this focus at any point in time afterwards as a free action and heal himself a total number of hit points equal to his Wisdom modifier (at the time of expending the focus) × his time walker level. The time walker can take this free action and heal himself at any point, even if it's just a split second after he has taken enough damage to fall unconscious or die.

Wait, so you already have fast healing, an ability to gain more HP if you didn't use your free reroll and now this? Not saying it's overpowered, just: is it really necessary? Well, at least this can save you from possible death due to its special timing, compared to Annul.


Improved Moment Stop: Time walkers have the ability to move farther than most other beings in instances that few others can even comprehend. At fourteenth level a time walker gains the ability to move at their full base land speed as an immediate action that does not actually count against the total immediate actions or swift actions he can take in a round (provoking attacks of opportunity as normal). If this ability is used after an opponent has moved to a square where they threaten the time walker, but before the opponent makes an attack, then the opponent counts as having used his move action for the turn unless he has the spring attack feat and his total movement doesn't exceed this total speed. This ability does not replace the moment stop class feature, but only either this class feature or moment stop can be used in a given round. This ability can only be used once every 1d4 rounds.

See Moment Stop for most of this. The wording almost suggests that you can use this and Moment Stop separately, leaving you with two 1d4 round tickers to say no to melee attacks. If that is the case, it shouldn't. If not, I probably should stop reading this and eat something.


Foresight (Ex): A time walker eventually becomes so incrediblly aware of the flow of time, that he can comprehend moments and events before they even come to take place. At seventeenth level, a time walker may act normally in a surprise round, no matter the circumstances, the time walker is also never caught flat-footed and recieves his Wisdom modifier as an insight bonus attack rolls and saving throws.

Eh, the "always act normally in a surprise round" part is a little late, but getting Wis to attack and saving throws is kind of nice at this point. Feels appropriate, too. (read: isn't an insane dip option)


Dichotomy (Ex): A time walker is someone who is inherently a piece of the existance of time, and this fact makes it so that they can grip the flow of time and change it, tear it beyond it's true limits, and reconstruct the fabric of reality. At ninteenth level, a time walker gains the ability to take a standard action and utterly decimate the flow of time, tearing into other timelines for an instant and making realities cross on a miniscule level for the blink of eye. During the instant that timelines cross during this standard action, the time walker stretches probability to the limit and exists in two realities simultaneously. Instantly after doing this, probability re-orients itself, and casuality begins to play a role in both realities. Of course, the fabric of existence cannot abide the existence of a single object in two timelines, and so a backlash occurs, causing two of the same object to exist in a single timeline.

After this standard action has been resolved, a single duplicate of the time walker comes into play in a single square adjacent to the time walker (this square is of the time walker's choice). This duplicate is entirely sentient and is generally separate from the original time walker; anything that happens to him does not affect the original. Though, for all intents and purposes (such as an item only responding to a particular person), the duplicate is the same being as the original. The duplicate has the exact same spells per day (from any class), special qualities, or other traits that the original had when this ability was used. Each version of time walker has maximum hit points equal to ˝ of the maximum hit points that the original had when he used dichotomy (rounded down). For the purposes of equipment, however, the duplicate only has what materials that the original had that didn't put the original over a medium load. Both magical and mundane materials are copied, but living material that is not part of the time walker is not. Items with limited uses, such as potions and wands, deplete from the same source, as the consumption of one causes the universe to adjust and delete both. Both versions of the time walker are dazed for one round after the duplicate is created. If either version of the time walker dies, then the remaining versions maximum hit points goes back up to what is normal for him (please note that the duplicates actual hit points are unaffected by this, only his maximum hit points are), and he can use this ability again after 24 hours have passed. This ability cannot be used if more than one version of time walker exists and are alive in the same timeline.

Wait, so, if I spend a standard action, then there are now two of me foreverty (until one of us dies, at least). Give this silly ability a time limit (pun, sadly intended).


Ideal Flow of Time (Ex): A time walker eventually perfects his ability to travel through time while being outside of time, to the point that he doesn't even flinch from removing himself from that state. At twentieth level, a time walker’s bonuses to Dexterity and Wisdom during the use of his flow of time class feature each increase to +8, additionally, he is no longer dazed at all after the use of the flow of time class feature ends.

Like Greatest Rage, but not actually going to see play. Not a capstone is obviously not a capstone.



Epic Time Walkers

EPIC STUFFS

We all know the joke here.



Well, that didn't take too long. Mostly, I was unamused by the class abilities. A few are insanely good for their level (you should know these by now), others come in half the game too late (Fearless).

Rithaniel
2010-01-20, 06:32 PM
More in-depth analysis to come, but I'll be damned if this isn't the best noncasting dip for a druid evar. Level one is just insanely good for anyone who uses (and abuses) Wis.

Side-note: From a glance, this really, really seems more like a PrC than a base class.

Well, you can't really say that a class is unbalanced cause of the Druid, seeing as the Druid is already unbalanced. It's like saying that Monk is unbalanced cause you can be a Monk 1/Cleric 19, and have your wisdom to your AC with full Cleric spells and Divine Metamagic. :smallbiggrin:

Also, the PrC thing, I'll hit that below.


An imaginative and well-thought out concept, and excellent implementation. I'm not sure about the balance of it, but it might be interesting to attempt to include some Diamond Mind maneuvers if other abilities are deleted or removed (or reviewers more experienced than myself think that it needs a boost relative to casters, which, ultimately, everything does)

One small thing that I noticed: it currently says that you get Greater Delay at 5th level, when I believe you mean 10th.

If you don't mind, I might borrow it for an NPC or two in my campaign. I have been trying to think of ways to make the continent of Xen'drik seem more mysterious, and this would be excellent, given the nature of the magical cataclysm that occurred there millennia ago.


More in-depth analysis to come, but I'll be damned if this isn't the best noncasting dip for a druid evar. Level one is just insanely good for anyone who uses (and abuses) Wis.

Side-note: From a glance, this really, really seems more like a PrC than a base class.

This loophole is a relevant one, but it probably isn't worth losing a caster level. Perhaps it could be fixed by making it impossible to cast spells while in Flow of Time?

Sure man, feel free, I make stuff so it can be used. Also, thanks for that catch, I'll go fix that now. As for the diamond mind maneuvers, well, I've already got one ACF for this class, and two PrC's, maybe I ought to do a martial Time Walker as well. *ponders*

Though, as for the 'no spells while in Flow of Time, well, that's kind of difficult to find reasoning for, don't you think?


Ok, first off: This is seriously powerful. Like, oh my god. Level 1 is one of the best dip levels I've seen in the world. It just gets worse from there. When I have time, I'll go more indepth ability by ability, but for now, holy crap this is powerful.

Second: This should be a PrC. I don't say this because of power, but because of flavor. Typically, base classes are pretty generic when it comes to what they can do and how they do it. A base class is something that people can train in somewhat basically and you'll see a fair number of them in the world. Unless your campaign world makes these things possible on a grand scale, this fits better as a PrC. Just look at the base classes that exist and consider the flavor that goes into them. Even the more specific ones (Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, etc) are broad in their flavor, powers, and proliferation. I can believe that sects of Beguilers exist in some country's army. I can't believe that someone can train to become a Time Walker.

Alright, just calm down, dude, think before you start screaming in terror. Is this really all that powerful? Rerolling dice is overrated, dude, it barely nets you anything, higher AC is just that: higher AC, you may be difficult to hit, but, unless you can dish it out, you aint doing anything in combat. Honestly, look at the Dwarven Defender, for crying out loud.

As for the 'this should be a PrC' idea, I'll just respond with a simple fact. The Ranger, is just as specific as this class, if not more specific (it's a hunter, oh wow). Same with the Druid. Though, this idea is brand new, and rather alien (dealing with time, instead of nature), so, at first glance, it seems like a specific idea, despite the fact that it's basically just a Ranger of the timeline. Thank you.


It might be smart to say that Walk the Aeons doesn't stack with other ways to apply wisdom to AC.

Just wondering, but why? As I said above, higher AC doesn't get you anything.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-01-20, 06:36 PM
This loophole is a relevant one, but it probably isn't worth losing a caster level. Perhaps it could be fixed by making it impossible to cast spells while in Flow of Time?

Probably not, but I just can't help but be amused by the idea of a bear wearing a belt and miter going into combat with 2xWis to AC. Also, the issue is less so that you can cast while in Flow of Time and more so that the first level gives so very, very much.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-01-20, 06:41 PM
Alright, just calm down, dude, think before you start screaming in terror. Is this really all that powerful? Rerolling dice is overrated, dude, it barely nets you anything, higher AC is just that: higher AC, you may be difficult to hit, but, unless you can dish it out, you aint doing anything in combat. Honestly, look at the Dwarven Defender, for crying out loud.

Except that rerolling just ONCE a day is a solid class feature (Domain granted power) or a feat (See any of the overall terrible luck feats). Even so, the premise, in DND, at least, is that rerolls should be rare and hard to come-by.

The higher AC can easily translate into more damage, though, as there is a very easy way to get dex to damage (and hit). The boost to Wisdom, though, outside of increasing your Will saves and AC, probably won't come along and join the pain party, though.

Hyooz
2010-01-20, 06:53 PM
Alright, just calm down, dude, think before you start screaming in terror. Is this really all that powerful? Rerolling dice is overrated, dude, it barely nets you anything, higher AC is just that: higher AC, you may be difficult to hit, but, unless you can dish it out, you aint doing anything in combat. Honestly, look at the Dwarven Defender, for crying out loud.

As for the 'this should be a PrC' idea, I'll just respond with a simple fact. The Ranger, is just as specific as this class, if not more specific (it's a hunter, oh wow). Same with the Druid. Though, this idea is brand new, and rather alien (dealing with time, instead of nature), so, at first glance, it seems like a specific idea, despite the fact that it's basically just a Ranger of the timeline. Thank you.


Seriously? An honest critique is screaming in terror to you? I can see you've put a lot of work into this, but if you weren't looking for general comments and criticisms, you should have just stuck this into whatever game its for and run with it instead of posting it here.

Rerolling dice is fairly powerful, especially at first level, where one failed save or botched skill check can kill you, and one successful melee hit can kill the baddie. Even at high levels, it stays super relevant, since, as I said, it means failing several fewer saves (I don't have the math on me, but rerolls boost your average d20 roll by a good amount) and getting that attack in when it really matters. Entire PrCs are built around getting and using this feature. Getting it at first level, that many times a day for a number of rounds that moots the drawback if you have a decent Wis (which you will, playing this class) is really, really good. AC and rerolls stay relevant your characters whole career. Dwarven Defender is bad for other reasons.

And are you seriously arguing this is as accessible and broad as the ranger? If you want to be super-stringent with Ranger flavor, then a ranger is a hunter. That's just about as far as you can narrow it down. A person can conceivably train to be a hunter on their own, and if you're restricting the possible flavor of Ranger to just being a hunter, you're not thinking hard enough.

To say that this


Time walkers are a type of people who have been born with the unexplainable capability to envelope themselves in utter non-existance and actually exist 'outside' of time. While in this state, they still exist in time, and they're still swept along in it's current, but they have the power to see and understand it's impossible rhythm to the degree that they can actual reach out and twist it to their fancy. Upon the field of battle, a time walker is a seemingly unkillable foe that can slip away and recover from nearly any attack, no matter how inexplicable it may be.

is no more specific than the ranger is just hilarious.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-01-20, 06:54 PM
As for the 'this should be a PrC' idea, I'll just respond with a simple fact. The Ranger, is just as specific as this class, if not more specific (it's a hunter, oh wow). Same with the Druid. Though, this idea is brand new, and rather alien (dealing with time, instead of nature), so, at first glance, it seems like a specific idea, despite the fact that it's basically just a Ranger of the timeline. Thank you.

This is the Ranger. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force) This is your class. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/3/9/0/39053c61c19246d2197dc26df468cf4c.png)

Seriously, though, being a hunter is very broad. Hell, the Ranger, as written may not even be a hunter. By comparison, your class, though, is some weird, freaky voodoo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics) that deals with one thing and one thing only: time. (http://zombo.com/)

Hyooz
2010-01-20, 07:02 PM
Keep in mind: the class as a whole is far from bad. It's well designed, and has some interesting ideas throughout. There are power concerns with certain abilities, especially with front loading them. And frankly, if your campaign world allows for these walkers to be somewhat common, then that works. Ideally, though, base classes work across campaign worlds, but if yours makes something like this possible, then hey, more power to you.

Rithaniel
2010-01-20, 07:19 PM
Thrice Dead Cat's typical Review, Ability by ability, hour by hour!

Oh, boy! *sits down and eat popcorn*


Seems a bit high, considering that this does not look like your usual frontliner. Whatevs.

Ranger has d10 HD as well, and is just as 'light', in a way, so, there's that.


Skills are whatever. It has Spot and Listen, so that's good. 4+ is a little light, since intelligence is jank to the class. Eh.

Yeah, not meant to be a skill monkey, really.


Not bad proficiencies. Not much to say really.

Yeah, imagine if I had given them Medium armour proficiency. :smallbiggrin:


...And we have hit the motherload of class abilities. For the low, low cost of one level you get a 3/day ability that boosts Dex and Wis for a little more than Wis modifier rounds AND get a free reroll on any d20 1/round? Sign. Me. Up.

Well, again, rerolls are overrated, but, the uses per day are based around your class levels (class levels always pretain to the class in question, I learned a while back). Though, this is the central class feature of the class, if it wasn't gained at first level, then, well, I'd be an idiot.


I think I hear a bear moaning in the background from ecstasy. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm) Admittedly worse than the Monk's AC ability, but, more importantly this one is not reproducible elsewhere.

yep yep. That bear joke just went right past my head.


So, starting at level two, I whack again and now he has issues returning the favor? Yes, please. Fatigue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#fatigued) may not be the best of abilities, but still imposing -1 to hit, damage, and AC is good. Also makes other characters have an easier time getting them exhausted.

EDIT: And it's a touch attack? Well, hot diggity daffodils, enjoy full power attack! (Although, to be fair, I would rather go Unarmed Swordsage 2 as a dip midgame and net Dex to damage, rather than trying to get strength up to the point where power attack becomes practical.)

Yeah, the touch attack part has been removed a while back, actually. This is just the original version (thought I'd post it for opinions on it). Though, this class feature (with touch attack as a part of it), is the only reason the class can do well at any level of the game. I'll update the class to it's current version in a moment, however.


Getting this from a class is good. Getting this at level three on a class is better. Say goodbye to wands of vigor, you've got one built in! Other than that, doesn't really do much.
yeah, fast healing is good for healing, as you've said, but, you're right, it isn't perfect for combat.


Whatever.

Oh my god, I can't combat that logic! *turns into a pile of roasted dust*


So, as a standard action, at 5th level I get to make my enemy go from 12 Init to 11? Yawn.

Not quite. Lets say you and Joey are in combat with each other, and you got the lower place in initiative. Use this, and now he has the lower place in combat. This is good for granting allies extra turns in battle, if used right, but, beyond that, not much.


Haha! Cute, but will probably never actually be used. Seriously, not using the free reroll you've had for seven levels now? You've got to be kidding me. See also: you have fast healing already.

Well, the deal here, is that challenges in D&D grow exponentially, since +2 CR = doubling in power. Fast Healing, by itself, has no impact on your ability in combat, most of the time, whereas, this, if you just took a massive hit mid-battle, you could use this to heal yourself by a chunk of it. Also, you know Rerolling is overrated, and is only about on par with something like this


So, this is wordy and good. It may simply be easier to call it a free action 1/round with the same recharge time. Stopping attacks before they start is wonderful. Kind of like a more reasonable Abrupt Jaunt, not that that's saying much.

Well, it kind of evolved from what it was aeons ago (which, btw, was a mess), and just adapted to this wording. It's easy enough to understand, thankfully.


Like the ability you got five levels ago, except, actually useful. May reach insane levels of "good" when combined with some sort of "free" standard action set-up or teamwork. In and of itself? Probably fine at this point.

Yeah, thanks.


Like Greater Rage, but different. Nothing much else to say here.

Yeah, and this, when used with Annul, just grows ever more powerful.


Thankfully this comes at the same time as Greater Flow of Time and Temporal Strike +5, otherwise this would be a dead level.

yeah, level filler ability is fun.


Wait, so you already have fast healing, an ability to gain more HP if you didn't use your free reroll and now this? Not saying it's overpowered, just: is it really necessary? Well, at least this can save you from possible death due to its special timing, compared to Annul.

Challenge grows exponentially, this is an upgrade that, with Fast Healing and Annul, actually makes your mid-combat healing ability worth noticing.


See Moment Stop for most of this. The wording almost suggests that you can use this and Moment Stop separately, leaving you with two 1d4 round tickers to say no to melee attacks. If that is the case, it shouldn't. If not, I probably should stop reading this and eat something.

Yeah, you misread that a bit.


Eh, the "always act normally in a surprise round" part is a little late, but getting Wis to attack and saving throws is kind of nice at this point. Feels appropriate, too. (read: isn't an insane dip option)

Thank you, thank you.


Wait, so, if I spend a standard action, then there are now two of me foreverty (until one of us dies, at least). Give this silly ability a time limit (pun, sadly intended).

Silly? It's like mega-leadership, dude. That's why it has the 'half-hp' limit on it. As well as the other limits. :smallbiggrin:


Like Greatest Rage, but not actually going to see play. Not a capstone is obviously not a capstone.

What are you going on about...


We all know the joke here.

No joke. Epic levels are a real part of the game. Besides, when you make up epic level stuff, you can have fun with it (read: you become immune to damage!)


Well, that didn't take too long. Mostly, I was unamused by the class abilities. A few are insanely good for their level (you should know these by now), others come in half the game too late (Fearless).

Now now, no need to be rude.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-01-20, 07:37 PM
Well, again, rerolls are overrated, but, the uses per day are based around your class levels (class levels always pretain to the class in question, I learned a while back). Though, this is the central class feature of the class, if it wasn't gained at first level, then, well, I'd be an idiot.

I would contest that point. Save or Die now becomes save or save or die. Getting rerolls is great. "Oh, noes, I rolled a 1 on my save." can potential become "Nat 20!" It sure as hell ain't getting any worse.


Yeah, the touch attack part has been removed a while back, actually. This is just the original version (thought I'd post it for opinions on it). Though, this class feature (with touch attack as a part of it), is the only reason the class can do well at any level of the game. I'll update the class to it's current version in a moment, however.

No, the only time a 1/round attack contributes is in the still of moar power thirst attack. Sure, this guy doesn't have sneak attack, but the idea would to be crank up attacks/round and use dex to damage.



Not quite. Lets say you and Joey are in combat with each other, and you got the lower place in initiative. Use this, and now he has the lower place in combat. This is good for granting allies extra turns in battle, if used right, but, beyond that, not much.

Yeah, but you're then using your turn to give Joey an extra turn. A level 5 Crusader or Warblade does the same thing, but with his swift action. More importantly, he can do it to himself.




Well, the deal here, is that challenges in D&D grow exponentially, since +2 CR = doubling in power. Fast Healing, by itself, has no impact on your ability in combat, most of the time, whereas, this, if you just took a massive hit mid-battle, you could use this to heal yourself by a chunk of it. Also, you know Rerolling is overrated, and is only about on par with something like this

Right: fast healing is for out of combat purposes. This ability is kind of "meh." Sure, if I didn't need to use my reroll I get to heal moar, which is nice, but it's just underwhelming. Also, you keep saying that rerolls are overrated. Not (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fingerOfDeath.htm) failing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm) can (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm) be (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticSphere.htm) pretty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip) important. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm)



Yeah, and this, when used with Annul, just grows ever more powerful.

Generally speaking, least you're healing to full every round by this level, it may not matter.


Yeah, you misread that a bit.

I thought so. Good to hear.



Silly? It's like mega-leadership, dude. That's why it has the 'half-hp' limit on it. As well as the other limits. :smallbiggrin:

That's exactly what I meant by silly. Just lolwut levels of crazy.




What are you going on about...

Getting improved rage at 20th, while nice, isn't much of a capstone.


No joke. Epic levels are a real part of the game. Besides, when you make up epic level stuff, you can have fun with it (read: you become immune to damage!)

I beg to differ. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsintro.htm)


Now now, no need to be rude.

I didn't mean it to be rude. I was merely stating that it took less time to PEACH than I thought it would. To be fair, most of the classes abilities are, bare minimum "good." The bland ones were things like Fast Healing, Fearless, etc. Nice to have, certainly, but they really don't do anything.

Rithaniel
2010-01-20, 07:47 PM
Seriously? An honest critique is screaming in terror to you? I can see you've put a lot of work into this, but if you weren't looking for general comments and criticisms, you should have just stuck this into whatever game its for and run with it instead of posting it here.

Rerolling dice is fairly powerful, especially at first level, where one failed save or botched skill check can kill you, and one successful melee hit can kill the baddie. Even at high levels, it stays super relevant, since, as I said, it means failing several fewer saves (I don't have the math on me, but rerolls boost your average d20 roll by a good amount) and getting that attack in when it really matters. Entire PrCs are built around getting and using this feature. Getting it at first level, that many times a day for a number of rounds that moots the drawback if you have a decent Wis (which you will, playing this class) is really, really good. AC and rerolls stay relevant your characters whole career. Dwarven Defender is bad for other reasons.

And are you seriously arguing this is as accessible and broad as the ranger? If you want to be super-stringent with Ranger flavor, then a ranger is a hunter. That's just about as far as you can narrow it down. A person can conceivably train to be a hunter on their own, and if you're restricting the possible flavor of Ranger to just being a hunter, you're not thinking hard enough.

No, you just looked like you were overreacting is all. Was simply attempting to calm you down. Also, I make stuff so that people will use it, not so that I can use it. Thank you, btw, I have put a good bit of work into this

That's a problem with games at level one. Keep in mind that this is the only ability you get at level one (along with higher AC), and, in the end, it just gives you enough survivability to make it through level one. The premise in D&D that rerolling dice should be hard to come by, is an extremely flawed premise. It ups your survivability, for sure, but, it's not an 'OMGWTFBBQ' type thing, not in the least. Dwarven Defender is bad because it's a defender that can't 'defend' because it can't draw the opponents attention. This class has good survivability, yes, but, unless you can draw the opponents attention, that survivability, is moot.

Yes, now, before you say I'm not giving the Ranger enough credit, think about your own statements. You are not giving this class enough credit. A Time Walker could be a creepy monk who talks about the end of time being nigh (he can see the flow of time, he knows that stuff). Or, he could be a military elite guy who seems to have split second reactions. Or, he could be an prophet-advisor to a king. Can the Ranger fit into as wide an array of archetypes as that? I thought so.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-01-20, 08:17 PM
That's a problem with games at level one. Keep in mind that this is the only ability you get at level one (along with higher AC), and, in the end, it just gives you enough survivability to make it through level one. The premise in D&D that rerolling dice should be hard to come by, is an extremely flawed premise. It ups your survivability, for sure, but, it's not an 'OMGWTFBBQ' type thing, not in the least.

The issues with the AC boost being at level one is less an issue of it being overpowered and more an issue of it being an insanely good dip options. Moving it back to level 2 will prevent casters from grabbing it, maybe even back to 3rd level, too.

As for the rerolling, the only ability that I can think of that grants the option to reroll d20s once/round is a ninth level spell found on the Destiny domain, which, is in turn, only offered by two or three deities. The Time Walker gets that at level 1.

Now, from a design standpoint, should rerolls be more common? Yeah, probably. I'm a big fan of systems that have some method of tweaking fate to get you by. However, DND isn't one of said systems. If you make it one through your own houserules, more power to you! As is, though, that ability is just absurdly good.


Just me blabbing some more, but the ideal set-up would probably be something like Time Walker 2 (or 4)/Swordsage X. Double Wis to AC, Wis to hit with certain maneuvers, Dex to damage via Shadow Blade using Tiger Claw to generate attacks. Along with Temporal Strike and Knowledge Devotion, you'll be getting a minimum of +3 to hit and damage for the first attack, +1 for the rest.

Secondary thought: Why note let the damage boost (hell, maybe even the to-hit boost) from Temporal Strike apply to all attacks?

Rithaniel
2010-01-20, 08:17 PM
I would contest that point. Save or Die now becomes save or save or die. Getting rerolls is great. "Oh, noes, I rolled a 1 on my save." can potential become "Nat 20!" It sure as hell ain't getting any worse.

It's also the difference between 'oh, I rolled an 11, I don't know if that'll do it, I'll reroll. Oh darn, I got a 10.' In the ToB, there is a maneuver that lets you roll an attack roll twice, and take the better roll. Trust me, rerolls are definitely overvalued (I mean, just look at this thread so far).


Yeah, but you're then using your turn to give Joey an extra turn. A level 5 Crusader or Warblade does the same thing, but with his swift action. More importantly, he can do it to himself.

Yeah, never said this was the most powerful ability in the world, but, it has some utility, as you can see.


Right: fast healing is for out of combat purposes. This ability is kind of "meh." Sure, if I didn't need to use my reroll I get to heal moar, which is nice, but it's just underwhelming. Also, you keep saying that rerolls are overrated. Not (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fingerOfDeath.htm) failing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm) can (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm) be (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticSphere.htm) pretty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip) important. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm)

In those cases, yes, you might want to use the reroll, or attempt to get your save DCs high enough that you can contribute to battle. Though, in those cases you listed, this defense becomes extremely, extremely important to have. In other cases, it's just as good as healing a chunk of damage. So, thank you for reinforcing my point. :smalltongue:


Generally speaking, least you're healing to full every round by this level, it may not matter.

Yeah, but, in those cases, the reroll is needed, and you are going to worry more about using it than healing.


That's exactly what I meant by silly. Just lolwut levels of crazy.

Now now, at that level, this sort of stuff is actually rather appropriate, even with all the restrictions.


Getting improved rage at 20th, while nice, isn't much of a capstone.

Well, don't forget you got Dichotomy last level :smallbiggrin:


I beg to differ. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsintro.htm)

Epic has flaws, everybody knows this, but, it can still be fun to dabble with it (making epic spells has a sort of novelty to it, after all)


I didn't mean it to be rude. I was merely stating that it took less time to PEACH than I thought it would. To be fair, most of the classes abilities are, bare minimum "good." The bland ones were things like Fast Healing, Fearless, etc. Nice to have, certainly, but they really don't do anything.

Well, in the context of 'why' you get them, I thought they were rather interesting, don't you?

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-01-20, 08:44 PM
It's also the difference between 'oh, I rolled an 11, I don't know if that'll do it, I'll reroll. Oh darn, I got a 10.' In the ToB, there is a maneuver that lets you roll an attack roll twice, and take the better roll. Trust me, rerolls are definitely overvalued (I mean, just look at this thread so far).

My issue with it is less "OMG free rerolls at level 1" and more on the fact that every round of combat, you're getting a free reroll. Now, if the ability was once/use, I'd be fine with that.


Yeah, never said this was the most powerful ability in the world, but, it has some utility, as you can see.

Right: I was just very, very underwhelmed by it, is all.


Now now, at that level, this sort of stuff is actually rather appropriate, even with all the restrictions.

The sad thing is: I agree with you on that. It still just kind of rubs me the wrong way that it's there, plain as day, compared to some of the other equivalent abilities which are "hidden" away. Maybe it's just me, at this point.


Well, don't forget you got Dichotomy last level :smallbiggrin:

True, Dichotomy is more of a capstone than the 20th level abilities. Still better than Rogue 20.


Epic has flaws, everybody knows this, but, it can still be fun to dabble with it (making epic spells has a sort of novelty to it, after all)

Toying with EPIC ideas is fine; I just generally ignore things which mention epic levels. Is it good that you've added them for those people daring enough to use epic? Hell yes! I still won't be touching it with a 16 ft. pole.


Well, in the context of 'why' you get them, I thought they were rather interesting, don't you?

Generally, I look at raw crunch first and foremost, going back to check the fluff sometimes afterward. Is it the best way of PEACHing? Probably not, but it's how I do it. It is an odd, and, indeed, interesting way of coming across the abilities, though.

Zexion
2010-01-20, 09:29 PM
I am pretty sure that the reroll does not allow you to see your previous roll, and does not allow you to take the higher roll, so, it has a 50-50 percent chance of helping or hurting, and you don't know which it does.

Milskidasith
2010-01-20, 09:39 PM
I am pretty sure that the reroll does not allow you to see your previous roll, and does not allow you to take the higher roll, so, it has a 50-50 percent chance of helping or hurting, and you don't know which it does.

I'm pretty sure that still makes it powerful... while you may not know to reroll that 14 because it's one below what you need to make your save, you still get the opportunity to reroll anything below a 9 and statistically come out on top, and trial and error can tell you, in prolonged combat, what you need to roll to make the save so you can accurately reroll anyway.

Zexion
2010-01-20, 09:43 PM
I'm pretty sure that still makes it powerful... while you may not know to reroll that 14 because it's one below what you need to make your save, you still get the opportunity to reroll anything below a 9 and statistically come out on top, and trial and error can tell you, in prolonged combat, what you need to roll to make the save so you can accurately reroll anyway.

However, you have the opportunity to reroll anything above an 11 and statistically come out on the bottom. Am I correct?

pyrefiend
2010-01-20, 10:06 PM
I am pretty sure that the reroll does not allow you to see your previous roll, and does not allow you to take the higher roll, so, it has a 50-50 percent chance of helping or hurting, and you don't know which it does.

No way is it meant to be used like that. What would be the point of using it?


I'm pretty sure that still makes it powerful... while you may not know to reroll that 14 because it's one below what you need to make your save, you still get the opportunity to reroll anything below a 9 and statistically come out on top, and trial and error can tell you, in prolonged combat, what you need to roll to make the save so you can accurately reroll anyway.
He's suggesting that you can't even see what you rolled for the first attempt, not just whether or not you succeeded.


Edit: I meant to comment on this:

Yes, now, before you say I'm not giving the Ranger enough credit, think about your own statements. You are not giving this class enough credit. A Time Walker could be a creepy monk who talks about the end of time being nigh (he can see the flow of time, he knows that stuff). Or, he could be a military elite guy who seems to have split second reactions. Or, he could be an prophet-advisor to a king. Can the Ranger fit into as wide an array of archetypes as that? I thought so.
First of all, the time walker doesn't seem to have any means by which to see the far future, so your first and third examples aren't entirely valid.

Secondly... well just look at the fluff you wrote for this class:

Time walkers are a type of people who have been born with the unexplainable capability to envelope themselves in utter non-existance and actually exist 'outside' of time.
and also:

A time walker is a time walker for one reason alone, and that reason is the fact that he can encase himself in non-existance, and move through time in a way that others cannot even comprehend, almost becoming one with the flow of time itself.
The ranger's fluff is already fairly vague, I don't think there's any question that it's more vague than this. If you said that the time walker's fluff was open to more character archetypes than say, the dragonfire adept... then maybe there would be room for discussion.

Milskidasith
2010-01-20, 10:19 PM
However, you have the opportunity to reroll anything above an 11 and statistically come out on the bottom. Am I correct?

You are, but that's an incredibly stupid thing to do. That's like saying that a wizard is weak because he can target himself with his spells and commit suicide. Every roll (well, 1/round, which is a crapload anyway) you get that is below average, you can reroll and you will come out on top in the end, plus you can, once you crunch the numbers, reroll only when you failed anyway. Sure, if you rerolled only on numbers significantly above the average die roll, you'd hurt yourself, but why would you ever do that? The argument is absurd.

DracoDei
2010-01-20, 10:47 PM
Milskidasith: Pyrefiend already explained what it was that Zexion almost certainly misunderstood, and that point of potential confusion is something I had also noticed about the original class. But maybe you just got ninja'ed by Pyrefiend?

Serpentine
2010-01-20, 10:55 PM
"The time has come", the Walrus said, "to speak of many things!
Of shoes and ships and sealing wax,
Of cabbages, and kings!"

<.<
>.>

>scuttles away<

Surgo
2010-01-20, 11:03 PM
Why do people keep going on and on and on and on about this being such a good Wis-caster dip class? It's not -- it's a great trap for Wis casters who don't know what they're doing, but it sucks compared to getting another caster level.

That, and this extreme "every dip must be punished severely!!!" mentality is just strange. You're giving up tons of power (caster level) to get something less powerful, you should at least get something decent out of the deal.

BSPiotr
2010-01-20, 11:10 PM
Why do people keep going on and on and on and on about this being such a good Wis-caster dip class? It's not -- it's a great trap for Wis casters who don't know what they're doing, but it sucks compared to getting another caster level.

That, and this extreme "every dip must be punished severely!!!" mentality is just strange. You're giving up tons of power (caster level) to get something less powerful, you should at least get something decent out of the deal.

The point being, in the end you dont lose any caster levels unless you are a FS or Sorc. You go down into FS/Sorc levels for a decent bonus, so o.oa

Mikka
2010-01-20, 11:12 PM
Really nice concept. . really overpowered sadly >_<*

Milskidasith
2010-01-20, 11:17 PM
The point being, in the end you dont lose any caster levels unless you are a FS or Sorc. You go down into FS/Sorc levels for a decent bonus, so o.oa

You lose caster levels... in exchange for a lot of rerolls and +2 to your save DCs if you cast off of wisdom. It's not the *worst* trade ever for a caster level, but unlike some caster PrCs with lost caster levels it's at least potentially worth it.

Zexion
2010-01-20, 11:18 PM
and gains the ability to reroll a single d20 roll per round. This reroll can be made on any roll that the time walker makes, whether or not it's on his turn or not, though, only a single reroll can be attempted per round.

So far, normal.


This reroll must be declared before the result of the d20 roll has been revealed, and must be accepted, even if it's worse than the first.

That's what I'm talking about.


You are, but that's an incredibly stupid thing to do. That's like saying that a wizard is weak because he can target himself with his spells and commit suicide. Every roll (well, 1/round, which is a crapload anyway) you get that is below average, you can reroll and you will come out on top in the end, plus you can, once you crunch the numbers, reroll only when you failed anyway. Sure, if you rerolled only on numbers significantly above the average die roll, you'd hurt yourself, but why would you ever do that? The argument is absurd.

It's not a choice. 50% of the time, you hurt yourself by rerolling. If you rolled, a 16, you couldn't see if you rolled a 16, then rerolled, you would hurt yourself. So, when you use the ability, you are basically taking a 50-50 chance.

Milskidasith
2010-01-20, 11:22 PM
That's what I'm talking about.

It's the result of the D20, I.E. a success or failure, like all other reroll abilities. While the ability is worded poorly (it mentions "result" instead of "success or failure" like the other rerolls in the game), it could be interpreted either way, and your way is completely useless while mine is A: the same as all other reroll abilities, B: not a waste of a class feature, and C: sensible. Not to mention the fact it's impossible to roll a d20 and not see the result of it, assuming you are, in fact, rolling your own dice. (If the DM is rolling, you *still* get to know because you can read his body language).

Zexion
2010-01-20, 11:49 PM
I am pretty sure that "result" is what you roll, for example the result of a d20 for an attack roll. Obviously, the DM would have to account for the fact that the timewarper could reroll something, probably having the player roll where he cannot see. However, the main idea is preserved... am I correct?

Milskidasith
2010-01-20, 11:53 PM
I am pretty sure that "result" is what you roll, for example the result of a d20 for an attack roll. Obviously, the DM would have to account for the fact that the timewarper could reroll something, probably having the player roll where he cannot see. However, the main idea is preserved... am I correct?

No, you are not. Think about it for a second: The idea is that you can warp time so you get to alter events. Forcing all rolls you make to be made by somebody else and hidden so even the DM can't see them (to truly prevent you from knowing if the roll is good or bad), not only makes the class feature entirely useless, but it doesn't fit the favor of time manipulation at all, or indeed anything.

So basically, my suggestion gives them a flavorful, if a bit too powerful suggestion, and yours forces them to jump through arbitrary hoops about rolling technique for a nonbenefit that doesn't fit the flavor at all. What do you think is more likely, that your specific reading (and it is very specific; a result could easily be "success" or "failure" rather than a number) is correct, or that the person making this class had it a bit vague but intended it to be like every other reroll system in the game, I.E. the one that actually does something.

Surgo
2010-01-21, 12:08 AM
The point being, in the end you dont lose any caster levels unless you are a FS or Sorc. You go down into FS/Sorc levels for a decent bonus, so o.oa

What on earth are you talking about?

If you take this class instead of continuing in your caster class, you lose a caster level. Period. You are now one level behind where you should be in your spellcasting.


Really nice concept. . really overpowered sadly >_<*
Not really. There was a big debate on my wiki as to whether this was closer to the Fighter or Rogue in terms of power level. Definitely closer to the Fighter. This guy just doesn't have the versatility or damage output.

Realms of Chaos
2010-01-21, 12:29 AM
Wow.

I remember reading this class on DnD Wiki awhile back and wondering how everyone on the boards would react to it. I guess that I now know.

When I first read this class a couple months back, I totally freaked out. I didn't see how underrated rerolls were (as is evident by my production of a base class fully reliant on rerolls *shudder*).

As for the actual use of rerolls, that is something that I finally realized quite recently.
1. reroll auto-failures. This is a useful safety net to have, I'll admit.
2. double odds of getting a natural 20. Of course, if a save DC or AC is high enough that you require a natural 20, you are already in a bad place.
3. gain more beneficial rolls. I could talk about how any character could reroll anything below 10 and come out statistically ahead but that isn't how things really work.
In DnD, players normally gain a certain sense of how difficult a specific task is, relatively speaking (either from guestimation or watching the rolls of allies). As failing a check by 10 is just as bad as failing by 1, players will often aim for a dice roll of above what they think is necessary. If said player guesses properly (or is a no-good metagamer :smallamused:), the player gains more benefit than if they just reroll below a 10. Then again, I've no master of statistics so I am probably wrong.

The aim of this class is indeed narrow but that doesn't bother me. I have produced classes with a much narrower theme, ones that people really seemed to like.

It occurs to me that this thing is the master of the single strike. You gain bonuses with your first attack each round and may reroll the attack roll if you wish. It's good at its job and is a decent dip for some builds.
I could easily see a monk with monastic training taking some levels in this, using the rerolls to turn their "flurry of misses" into a "flurry of misses with some hits". :smalltongue:

Not much more to say. Cool abilities on a cool class. Not optimal but certainly worth a look.

Kallisti
2010-01-21, 01:13 AM
I am pretty sure that "result" is what you roll, for example the result of a d20 for an attack roll. Obviously, the DM would have to account for the fact that the timewarper could reroll something, probably having the player roll where he cannot see. However, the main idea is preserved... am I correct?

But that would be so utterly pointless...why declare a reroll on a roll nobody has seen? What was the point of the first roll, then?

Honestly, one reroll per round is good, but not that good, especially since you get dazed for two rounds after using the ability that nets them for you, and extra actions>>>>>>>extra rolls.

pyrefiend
2010-01-21, 12:46 PM
So basically, my suggestion gives them a flavorful, if a bit too powerful suggestion, and yours forces them to jump through arbitrary hoops about rolling technique for a nonbenefit that doesn't fit the flavor at all. What do you think is more likely, that your specific reading (and it is very specific; a result could easily be "success" or "failure" rather than a number) is correct, or that the person making this class had it a bit vague but intended it to be like every other reroll system in the game, I.E. the one that actually does something.
I really think that Zexion is just pointing out the ambiguous wording of the ability, not arguing that the method he's talking about is the way it should be played.

Milskidasith
2010-01-21, 12:52 PM
I really think that Zexion is just pointing out the ambiguous wording of the ability, not arguing that the method he's talking about is the way it should be played.

No, he's pretty much saying that's how it should be, because he argued with me even after I said it was ambiguous, but my wording was the only way that made it into an actual class feature.

pyrefiend
2010-01-21, 01:10 PM
No, he's pretty much saying that's how it should be, because he argued with me even after I said it was ambiguous, but my wording was the only way that made it into an actual class feature.

As of his last post he was still saying that "result of the d20 roll" implies the actual number on the die, not success or failure. I agree that it should be reworded, but I do think that his interpretation makes more sense for the wording as it is now.

Glimbur
2010-01-21, 02:17 PM
Well, the deal here, is that challenges in D&D grow exponentially, since +2 CR = doubling in power. Fast Healing, by itself, has no impact on your ability in combat, most of the time, whereas, this, if you just took a massive hit mid-battle, you could use this to heal yourself by a chunk of it. Also, you know Rerolling is overrated, and is only about on par with something like this.

Hit points do not grow exponentially, nor does damage per round. The growth of hit points per character level is pretty trivially linear, with slight complications from Con increases and a few rarer sources.

Let's do some math on damage per round. Take a number of book standard orcs that add up to various CR's. Two orcs make 1 CR, four make 2 CR, six make 3 CR, and nine make 4 CR.

Assume a target with AC 14, which is kind of low for the front lines even at first level. One orc does (8/20)*(2d4+4(avg 9)) + (3/20*11/20*(2d4+4)*2) + (3/20+9/20 * 9), or 5.6925 damage a round. This is (avg damage without crit) + (damage from confirmed crits) + (damage from nonconfirmed crits)

Let us assume a simple exponential of the form a*exp(x) to approximate damage per round from orcs worth X CR. Furthermore, let use use the CR 1 encounter to set a to be 4.1883.

{table=head]CR|# of Orcs|Damage Per Round|Predicted Damage Per Round
1|2|11.385|11.385
2|4|22.77|30.9476
3|6|34.155|84.124
4|9|51.2325|228.673[/table]

Clearly, the exponential is a terrible fit. A linear fit would be more accurate, it would begin underestimating at CR 4 and only get worse from there, but it's odd to use 9 orcs to challenge a APL 4 party instead of fewer monsters of higher CR.

The largest omission in this analysis is the assumption of a static target AC as CR's increase, when any character that has any business on the front lines should be increasing AC most levels, if not every level. I also disregard flanking and a few other things, but those are smaller concerns.

tl;dr Power is not only measured by hit points

Stompy
2010-01-21, 02:58 PM
But that would be so utterly pointless...why declare a reroll on a roll nobody has seen? What was the point of the first roll, then?

Honestly, one reroll per round is good, but not that good, especially since you get dazed for two rounds after using the ability that nets them for you, and extra actions>>>>>>>extra rolls.


Rerolling a die no one has seen is pretty much EXACTLY the same as just rolling a die.

One reroll per round is nice, because the d20 has a lot more variance than 3d6, for example. My last character died because he had a good Fort save but I rolled a 2 on a fort save or die effect. (Honestly the non-zero probability of instantly dying to SoD is one of the things that turns me off to high level DnD 3.5)

The "time rage" ability lasts for 2 + new wisdom modifier, so if you start with a 14 wisdom, the ability lasts 6 rounds. Most fights do not last 6 rounds without a reasonable conclusion of the winner. (Exceptions are epic long-lasting fights, attrition fights [more of a DM style thing], or "you're doing it wrong".)

EDIT: If anything, I am so gestalting this with Druid.

BSPiotr
2010-01-21, 03:12 PM
What on earth are you talking about?

If you take this class instead of continuing in your caster class, you lose a caster level. Period. You are now one level behind where you should be in your spellcasting.


You lose caster levels... in exchange for a lot of rerolls and +2 to your save DCs if you cast off of wisdom. It's not the *worst* trade ever for a caster level, but unlike some caster PrCs with lost caster levels it's at least potentially worth it.

You lose one caster level (lets say at first level, so 1 TW / 19 Cleric) to drop into Favored Soul Spell Progression. Same with Druid (though druid 20 has a capstone). Now, arguably the wizard wouldn't be as good a choice due to being a non-wis casting class, but then the rerolls would still be nice (against penetration or against touch AC) and this drops them into sorceror progression.

Now, I don't know about you, but that seems like a good trade off to me, unless you are suggesting that by going into FS or sorc you are already behind in casting levels and thus its a bad class to be in (at which point we're at an impasse)

+ WIS AC (which is beautiful for cleric/Druid) and plusses while in form and you still get 9th level spells as soon as a FS does. Add in an item that stops daze and its along the lines of FS's and Sorcs, at least IMO.

Milskidasith
2010-01-21, 03:15 PM
You lose one caster level (lets say at first level, so 1 TW / 19 Cleric) to drop into Favored Soul Spell Progression. Same with Druid (though druid 20 has a capstone). Now, arguably the wizard wouldn't be as good a choice due to being a non-wis casting class, but then the rerolls would still be nice (against penetration or against touch AC) and this drops them into sorceror progression.

Now, I don't know about you, but that seems like a good trade off to me, unless you are suggesting that by going into FS or sorc you are already behind in casting levels and thus its a bad class to be in (at which point we're at an impasse)

+ WIS AC (which is beautiful for cleric/Druid) and plusses while in form and you still get 9th level spells as soon as a FS does. Add in an item that stops daze and its along the lines of FS's and Sorcs, at least IMO.

Caster levels are still worth more than just progression... there's also the power, range, duration, and SR penetration of your spells. As for the trade off, it may be worth it to a wisdom caster, for the mass number of rerolls, but anybody who isn't optimizing wisdom is not going to be getting much benefit because it won't last an entire combat unless it's a 1v1 nukefest.

Also, daze immunity is *incredibly* hard to come by. It's the strongest status edition in the game, bar none, because it's so absurdly hard to become immune to, and I think most methods are cheese anyway.

As for +wis to AC, that is not worth much, especially since you can get it from a cheap item, and AC scales so badly that you really can't avoid being hit anyway.

BSPiotr
2010-01-21, 03:26 PM
Caster levels are still worth more than just progression... there's also the power, range, duration, and SR penetration of your spells. As for the trade off, it may be worth it to a wisdom caster, for the mass number of rerolls, but anybody who isn't optimizing wisdom is not going to be getting much benefit because it won't last an entire combat unless it's a 1v1 nukefest.

Also, daze immunity is *incredibly* hard to come by. It's the strongest status edition in the game, bar none, because it's so absurdly hard to become immune to, and I think most methods are cheese anyway.

As for +wis to AC, that is not worth much, especially since you can get it from a cheap item, and AC scales so badly that you really can't avoid being hit anyway.

Practiced Spellcaster Cleric (unless you want to blow a lot of Divine Feats/turn feats)

Start with 16 wis is 7 rounds of rerolling. I haven't seen most fights go that long, and this is starting with 16 wisdom not counting level ups and items.

Daze immunity isn't impossible, though it is cheesy, I agree.

The extra AC is pretty good, as its an insight bonus. Which item are you talking about?

Thats about it. Not gonna say much else since I have a different view on progression and spell levels than others it seems.

Milskidasith
2010-01-21, 03:28 PM
Practiced Spellcaster Cleric (unless you want to blow a lot of Divine Feats/turn feats)

Burning a feat for a dip makes it less of an attractive dip... both caster levels and feats are scarce resources.


Start with 16 wis is 7 rounds of rerolling. I haven't seen most fights go that long, and this is starting with 16 wisdom not counting level ups and items.

I said if you weren't a wis focused class... I find it very unusual to see a wizard with 16 wisdom. Maybe a +2 bonus, although a cheap item of +2 wis would make it last a while.


The extra AC is pretty good, as its an insight bonus. Which item are you talking about?


Monk's Belt. Sure, they stack, but again, AC isn't very good to optimize because it's very hard to avoid even basic enemy attacks at higher levels.


Thats about it. Not gonna say much else since I have a different view on progression and spell levels than others it seems.

When you figure that AC is more important than feats or caster levels, yes, I would assume that your view differs from most every optimizers.

Hyooz
2010-01-21, 03:32 PM
No one is saying that AC is more important than a caster level. It is arguable, however, that AC, stat bonuses, rerolls, and more init might be worth a loss of ONE caster level, which can be made up for with a feat, and since you're a cleric and won't be feat-starved anyway, isn't that big a deal since you get the best of both worlds.

Stompy
2010-01-21, 03:44 PM
No one is saying that AC is more important than a caster level. It is arguable, however, that AC, stat bonuses, rerolls, and more init might be worth a loss of ONE caster level, which can be made up for with a feat, and since you're a cleric and won't be feat-starved anyway, isn't that big a deal since you get the best of both worlds.

I'd wait until I get 9th level spells first. Also note that the Wis to AC thing is restricted by a max DEX bonus. (When I think cleric I think full plate, even though with this you may go mithral chain instead.) I still love re-rolls though as I mentioned earlier.

Also, putting two levels of this into a rogue is sweet. Touch attack sneak attack fatigue re-roll +4DEX!

Milskidasith
2010-01-21, 03:44 PM
No one is saying that AC is more important than a caster level. It is arguable, however, that AC, stat bonuses, rerolls, and more init might be worth a loss of ONE caster level, which can be made up for with a feat, and since you're a cleric and won't be feat-starved anyway, isn't that big a deal since you get the best of both worlds.

Clerics? Not feat starved? You're joking, right?

It's AC that you can get from other sources (monk's belt) and you can't combine with armor, a stat bonus (admittedly nice), rerolls (again, nice), and initiative (OK). Yes, it might be worth the loss of a caster level, but the other person who I was arguing with only ever brought up the AC issue, not the other useful benefits.

jiriku
2010-01-21, 03:53 PM
OP, I'm also feeling that this class has the style of a prestige class, rather than a base class. I understand that doesn't worry you too much, but just to chime in with the others who've commented on this, I see it too.

To offer you constructive feedback for improving the class, your timewalker suffers from a syndrome I see in a lot of homebrewed martial classes: powerful, uber abilities are front-loaded into the first few levels, then rapidly dry up, and by level 10 or so the class isn't really gaining any new features, just upgrades to existing features that prevent them from becoming irrelevent.

To improve the class, you want to take the abilities granted in levels 1-4 and stretch them out to levels 1-6, take levels 5-8ish and back them up two levels, and then add in 3-5 additional major class features in levels 10-16. your immediate interrupts and dazing abiities are great, and you need more like them. I'd suggest abilities that actually let you see the future and the past. An object reading power that lets you glimpse the future and past of objects might be pretty cool too, and give you some utility in investigative/roleplaying encounters.

Edit: Also, do yourself a favor and make some changes to reduce the intra-combat bookkeeping. A high-level timewalker is tracking:

Remaining Duration on Flow of Time
Whether his reroll has been used
Whether his Temporal Strike has been used
Whether his Temporal Rip has been used
Remaining Cooldown on Moment Stop

This is before worrying about tactical feats or magic items with use limitations. Imagine being a DM and trying to run several time-walker villains of varying level. Madness, I tell you! Madness!

Examples of how you might simplify:
Temporal Rip is an evolution of Temporal Strike; they can't be used separately.
Moment Stop doesn't have a cooldown. Instead, it can be recharged by expending the 1/round reroll.

Nitpick on Temporal Rip: The ability is nice, but the fluff fails to explain it. If anything, I was expecting an ability to see a moment into the future to automatically catch an opponent flat-footed. This would also synergize well with the Iaijutsu Focus skill and strengthen the depiction of your character as someone who uses his mastery of time to be in the right place at the right moment. On the other hand, making touch attacks just encourages massive power attack, which is really more the barbarian's schtick.
tl;dr Consider making opponents flat-footed instead of making touch attacks, and add Iaijutsu Focus to the class skill list.

Hyooz
2010-01-21, 03:59 PM
Feat starved? Really?

Assuming you're going to take the DMM Persist Line, which is 3 feats, probably 4 if Nightsticks aren't allowed, clerics are far from feat starved. Even without going human cleric with 2 flaws, you still have plenty of feats to play with over 20 levels.

What feats are out there making them feat starved? Unless you're going into a really feat-heavy requirement PrC?

Milskidasith
2010-01-21, 04:09 PM
Feat starved? Really?

Assuming you're going to take the DMM Persist Line, which is 3 feats, probably 4 if Nightsticks aren't allowed, clerics are far from feat starved. Even without going human cleric with 2 flaws, you still have plenty of feats to play with over 20 levels.

What feats are out there making them feat starved? Unless you're going into a really feat-heavy requirement PrC?

Seeing as clerics have to prc out to get class features, they need all the feats they can get.

Hyooz
2010-01-21, 04:41 PM
Ok, so we can always go Contemplative (no feat requirement,) Divine Oracle (one feat), Walker in the Waste (one feat), Radiant Servant (one feat) or any number of PrCs that don't require tons of feats to get into.

And this still requires us to take the whole DMM persist line to become slightly strained for feats. And not a human. And unable to take flaws.

EDIT: Or just take Cleric 20. It's not like that's a bad build.

EDIT EDIT: And by cleric 20 I mean time walker 1/cleric 19. Or whatever.

Surgo
2010-01-21, 04:56 PM
Again, there is nothing too front-loaded about the class. I mean, I agree with Jiriku that you don't gain anything new and interesting past level 10. I don't agree at all that the abilities you get in those first 10 levels are "uber" or even worth that much at all.


You lose one caster level (lets say at first level, so 1 TW / 19 Cleric) to drop into Favored Soul Spell Progression. Same with Druid (though druid 20 has a capstone). Now, arguably the wizard wouldn't be as good a choice due to being a non-wis casting class, but then the rerolls would still be nice (against penetration or against touch AC) and this drops them into sorceror progression.

Now, I don't know about you, but that seems like a good trade off to me, unless you are suggesting that by going into FS or sorc you are already behind in casting levels and thus its a bad class to be in (at which point we're at an impasse)

+ WIS AC (which is beautiful for cleric/Druid) and plusses while in form and you still get 9th level spells as soon as a FS does. Add in an item that stops daze and its along the lines of FS's and Sorcs, at least IMO.

Again...what are you talking about? You recognize that there are levels aside from 20 in the game, right? That you also have to survive levels 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19? And that at all of these levels, you will be behind a caster level? That means a spell level and spells/day behind the guy who just didn't take the Time Bender. That's a big deal. Way bigger than what you get at Time Bender 1.

The ideal situation would be where Time Bender 1 is about equal to a caster level, but it's not. It's less.

Hyooz
2010-01-21, 05:02 PM
Again, there is nothing too front-loaded about the class. I mean, I agree with Jiriku that you don't gain anything new and interesting past level 10. I don't agree at all that the abilities you get in those first 10 levels are "uber" or even worth that much at all.



Again...what are you talking about? You recognize that there are levels aside from 20 in the game, right? That you also have to survive levels 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19? And that at all of these levels, you will be behind a caster level? That means a spell level and spells/day behind the guy who just didn't take the Time Bender. That's a big deal. Way bigger than what you get at Time Bender 1.

The ideal situation would be where Time Bender 1 is about equal to a caster level, but it's not. It's less.

Except for all of those levels, you get a higher chance to not get hit and the chance to reroll every round. This means making more saves and hitting with more attacks. Every level. Forever. All other things being equal, they come out about the same, especially at lower levels.

And oh wait Practiced Spellcaster.

Surgo
2010-01-21, 06:44 PM
Except for all of those levels, you get a higher chance to not get hit and the chance to reroll every round. This means making more saves and hitting with more attacks. Every level. Forever. All other things being equal, they come out about the same, especially at lower levels.

And oh wait Practiced Spellcaster.
Practiced Spellcaster does not give you the benefits of actually having the level in the first place, like, getting a new spell level.

No, they do not "come out about the same". Having level 2 spells is better than having level 1 spells and a slightly lower chance of being hit and getting a reroll.

The Time Bender's level 1 is not bad. But it's not as good as having the caster level.

Random_person
2010-01-21, 07:06 PM
So dip it at higher levels. Once you have ninth level spells, it's not a bad dip at all (say, cleric16/TW 1/cleric 3).

Surgo
2010-01-21, 07:49 PM
So what you're saying is it's only a worthwhile dip if you're turning level 17?

I don't know about the author, but I'm pretty sure I can live with that.

Hyooz
2010-01-21, 08:58 PM
>.<

Yes, if we're concerned about level 20, sure, take the dip late. But really, it doesn't matter when you take the dip. It only matters if you're really obsessed with having the top level spells all the time.

But to say it's ONLY a good dip at level 17+ is just reading way too much into things.

It's an effective first level dip. It's an effective 5th level dip. Just dip into it whenever you want, really. If anything is overrated in this thread its a single spellcasting level. CharOp people aren't this obsessed with one caster level. No one caster level gives you Wis to AC, +4 Dex +4 Wis in combat, and 1 reroll a round. This is an excellent dip for Wis-based casters. Period.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-01-21, 09:26 PM
I recall a few people mentioning that, past 10th level there is not much to the class. Certainly, Foresight and Dichotomy are nice abilities, but most everything else is a rehash of something you gained earlier.

With that in mind, would it be possible to condense this puppy down into a 10-level long PrC. You get all the primary abilities, and, depending on intended level entry, Foresight and Dichotomy could still come along for the ride, too.

This would also help with the perceived problem with getting enough damage with the class, as it leaves people with another 10 levels to play. Even so, it still makes a fine 1-4 level dip before Swordsage and Shadow Blade fun.

Rithaniel
2010-01-22, 10:41 AM
I'm afraid you are gravely mistaken, Hyooz.

You seem to be forgetting that the two most magnificently powerful optimizations ever to even exist, were casters (Read: The Wish and the Word). I mean, the Word, by himself, had a 100% chance of demolishing an antimagic feild with a disjunction, and absolutely nothing could even resist a Dictum from him, except things that were just blatantly magic immune, and then the Wish stepped in.

Unlike other systems in the game, spells actually do grow exponentially (meaning that +2 CR (or +1 spell level) = x2 power, meaning that each spell level is two-fold times as powerful as level before it), if you take a dip into this class in leu of a caster level, then, for every other level there-after, you are going to only be half as powerful as you ought to be. You realize how much that is? That's like only having one leg, in all seriousness. Also, if you are taking this at 17th level, you could be doing a lot better, after all, there are PrCs that give class features worth having AND extra caster levels.

Now then, obviously, as seems to be the consensus in the forum so far, a dip into the class is being compared to being about on par with an extra blank caster level (which is totally absurd, I mean, you gain a caster level, and you gain two new spells, either one of which is going to be doing things better than this class can do), but, honestly, if that's what the consensus is, then, please, move on, saying that it's on par with a caster level, means that it's NOT game breaking, by definition.

As for the reroll, I ran a few numbers, and here's what the statistical outcome is for a wide range of cases:

{table=head]Number Required to Succeed | % Chance w/out Reroll | % Chance w/ Reroll
1 | 95% | 99.75%
4 | 85% | 97.75%
8 | 65% | 87.75%
11 | 50% | 75%
14 | 35% | 57.75%
18 | 15% | 27.75%
20 | 5% | 9.75%[/table]

Now, that's assuming you know what you need to roll to succeed, so actual results are probably even worse. In the end, the biggest increase the reroll EVER gave, was +25% to chance of hitting (about equal to +5 to hit), and, only gave +4.75% to chance of hitting (less than +1 to hit) at twice as many points. If this doesn't paint the picture clear enough for you that rerolls are overvalued across the board, and that the premise that they ought to be rare is flawed, then I'm sorry, you are beyond hope.

Also, Realms of Chaos, you are absolutely correct, this is the master of making sure one attack hits, glad you noticed.

jiriku, if that's difficult for you to keep track of, then never play a caster. Also, do yourself a favor, and think about the class in retrospect, you'll come to a different conclusion.

As for the continued meandering on the PrC/base class stuff (You guys really are dug in there like a tick), if you're going to have to ask for mechanical justifications for everything the character 'does', then, the Ranger is only a hunter (favoured enemy = he hunts that particular kind of enemy). Though, you guys have just tried to assume that this class is narrow. How bout, instead, you tell me what makes the Ranger (or, better yet, the Monk, or the Rogue) 'broad', as it is being assumed they are. There must be some justification for it.

jiriku
2010-01-22, 12:48 PM
Rithaniel, let me ask a clarifying question: are you seeking PEACH on this class, so that you can improve it, or are simply presenting it for others to look at?

I had originally assumed the former, but when others make suggestions, your responses have been dismissive and contentious. You may not realize this, but you do come across as arrogant, condescending, and defensive. Perhaps that wasn't your intent.

Milskidasith
2010-01-22, 12:51 PM
Your table doesn't account for the fact you'd only use your rerolls when you are sure/pretty sure you didn't succeed. For example, if you know you need a 16+ to succeed, and you roll a 15, taking a reroll gives you a 25% chance to succeed, with a 0% chance to succeed if you don't. If you roll a 10 when you need an 11, you have a 50% chance to succeed.

Bibliomancer
2010-01-22, 02:06 PM
Personally, I like the class as it is, but I can see why it might be more logical as a prestige class. Let me try to answer this question:


How bout, instead, you tell me what makes the Ranger (or, better yet, the Monk, or the Rogue) 'broad', as it is being assumed they are. There must be some justification for it.

A ranger is

a) someone who has wilderness skills*
*except for the urban and dungeon variants
and
b) can gain small bonuses against certain enemies

The range of variation of people who could use this source would thus vary from the Fremen of Dune to the normal border guard to almost any Native American warrior imitation to most elven non-wizards to Batman.**
**Non-magical version.

However, a warlock bears a very strong resemblance to this base class in terms of flavor (except for the slight detail that warlocks can get their pacts from almost any chaotic or evil outsider).

Rithaniel
2010-01-22, 02:11 PM
Rithaniel, let me ask a clarifying question: are you seeking PEACH on this class, so that you can improve it, or are simply presenting it for others to look at?

I had originally assumed the former, but when others make suggestions, your responses have been dismissive and contentious. You may not realize this, but you do come across as arrogant, condescending, and defensive. Perhaps that wasn't your intent.

Well, it was partially to get a few additional veiws on, from a different crowd (I uploaded the original version first, see if the core qualm with it was shared here, which it was, so I updated it to the current version), and partially just for the sake of the discussion. Also, I'm guessing the arrogant and condescending part you probably got from me, was the "Also, do yourself a favor" part. I wasn't being serious about that though, was merely using the part of your post that made me double take the most, seeing as you used the exact same phrase.

Also, in any case for revising a class, I must know that the suggestions being offered are valid before I blindly accept them and start making edits. You suggested that I spread levels 1-4 out through levels 1-6. Only flaw there, is that there aren't even 6 class features to spread out, and two of them are core class features that are needed to be gained at first level, else you aren't what you are supposed to be (it's like a Warblade not getting any maneuvers till 5th level). So, you're suggestion was, right off the bat, not valid. I guess I could have explained this more in depth, but, I couldn't find the words, so I suggested you reread it.


Your table doesn't account for the fact you'd only use your rerolls when you are sure/pretty sure you didn't succeed. For example, if you know you need a 16+ to succeed, and you roll a 15, taking a reroll gives you a 25% chance to succeed, with a 0% chance to succeed if you don't. If you roll a 10 when you need an 11, you have a 50% chance to succeed.

Actually, yeah it does. For example, if you know the stats of the enemy down to a tee, and know that you need, say, an 18, 19, or 20 to hit them (15% chance to hit), then you roll a 17, then you would immediately use the reroll, on this reroll, you still need to roll an 18, 19, or 20, to hit them (15% chance). Now then, to figure out the boost the reroll is getting you, you multiply the chance of the reroll hitting by the chance of yourself having to use the reroll (one of the two numbers would need to have the decimal place moved two place to the left, btw, or the numbers get funny), so, you get .15x85=12.75, or, +12.75% chance of hitting, for a total of 27.75% chance with the reroll intact.

Rithaniel
2010-01-22, 02:29 PM
A ranger is

a) someone who has wilderness skills*
*except for the urban and dungeon variants
and
b) can gain small bonuses against certain enemies

The range of variation of people who could use this source would thus vary from the Fremen of Dune to the normal border guard to almost any Native American warrior imitation to most elven non-wizards to Batman.**
**Non-magical version.

However, a warlock bears a very strong resemblance to this base class in terms of flavor (except for the slight detail that warlocks can get their pacts from almost any chaotic or evil outsider).

Thanks Bibliomancer, but you just proved my point. If you wanna think that the Ranger is narrow, then you look at the class features (wilderness skills and small bonuses against certain enemies), and you will say "Oh, that's just a hunter", however, people aren't veiwing it that way cause they expect it to be broad, so, they will find all these different way that a Ranger can be re-adjusted. They, however, are expecting this, to be narrow, yet, a person could, if they try, come up with a long list of different style characters these guys could be. Time is a very vague thing, after all.

Glimbur
2010-01-22, 03:52 PM
Looking at it just mechanically, and seeing what fluff comes to mind...

At first level we have a heightened state of awareness and luck; and also the ability to use insight (as an aside, the mental stats are somewhat loosely defined) as a defense.

Second level provides a smite that ignores concealment and fatigues.

Third level has an increased move speed.

Third level has an incredible healing rate.

Fifth level has an attack that causes the foe to act later.

Seventh lets you heal even better, and shift quickly.

Tenth level has a daze effect, and also an improvement to rage/heightened awareness.

At eleventh there's immunity to fear.

Thirteenth has very timely healing.

This is very mutable fluff. An alternate approach is that this base class is emulating many of the powers of many X-men, and other characters from that universe. We have the probability control of Scarlet Witch, the healing factor of Wolverine, the disorienting strikes of Colossus (not strictly a super power, but he's made of metal and punching you), the speed of Quicksilver, the self control of Xavier, and the energy draining of rogue (in the fatiguing smite).

The fact that this class does so many different things does suggest that it doesn't have the focus that a PrC usually does, but honestly I can't find fluff that makes sense for all these powers under one umbrella except being a time manipulating expert. What you do with those powers isn't as important to the class as the fact that you have them. It's like a sorcerer, except all your spells are pre-chosen and you have one power source specified. I guess if the monk is acceptable as a base class, this is too. Which is a whole different argument.

Bibliomancer
2010-01-22, 05:02 PM
Thanks Bibliomancer, but you just proved my point. If you wanna think that the Ranger is narrow, then you look at the class features (wilderness skills and small bonuses against certain enemies), and you will say "Oh, that's just a hunter", however, people aren't veiwing it that way cause they expect it to be broad, so, they will find all these different way that a Ranger can be re-adjusted. They, however, are expecting this, to be narrow, yet, a person could, if they try, come up with a long list of different style characters these guys could be. Time is a very vague thing, after all.

True, and as I stated I agree with this being a base class. I think the main objection that people have to this is that we think of time as something that flows naturally (ie, we are not aware of variation in it) as opposed to nature, which has a practically endless array of environments, and as a result you might think that this class is one specific sub-type, and would be more suited to a prestige class. However, as mentioned, it has at least the level of sophistication that warlock does.

Thus, thematically this class could be...

...a person descended from a time traveler, who will eventually gain the ability to find (or become) his or her own ancestor.

...a person whose existence was fated, but magical meddling resulted in their parents being killed before they were conceived. The Time walker sprang into existence spontaneously, and only temporal flux is maintaining his or her existence.

...a survivor of a fallen empire destroyed in a magical cataclysm that shattered its citizens across the universe and time.

...a person whose crimes (or virtues) were so pronounced that the angels (or demons) shattered their timeline, unmaking their existence, but the Time walker lingers, attempting to regain whatever was lost.

...an agent of the fey, capable of manipulating the time differential between the realm of the Faerie and the Material Plane to great effect.

...or something else.

Anyways, an interesting base class that I hope to use in a campaign to surprise my PCs, maybe.

DracoDei
2010-01-22, 07:12 PM
Please, Please, Please tell us how it goes. This has been the source of so much contention that some empirical feed-back data seems sorely needed.

Kallisti
2010-01-25, 01:22 PM
I'm currently applying for one PbP game where I got permission to play this. Playtest, anybody?

Heads up, though: I did get permission to use this in place of Ranger for Swift Hunter, so it's been houseruled at a little bit.

DracoDei
2010-01-25, 02:00 PM
Link Please?

Kallisti
2010-01-25, 02:01 PM
Right here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7762020&posted=1#post7762020)

Rithaniel
2010-01-25, 03:42 PM
Oh, badass dude, always glad to know my stuff is being used. Here's hoping it goes well for you.

Kallisti
2010-01-25, 09:27 PM
Well, your fluff is unique enough to inspire me, so I'm likely able to write up a good backstory, which means my chances should be pretty good.

Rithaniel
2010-01-26, 01:07 AM
*blush* Oh stop, you're embarassing me.

Though, speaking of fluff, today, in class, I had a brainstorm of different 'reflavorings' for this class, and, just in case anybody is interested, or might wanna use one of these, I'll post em here:


Disciple of a God of Luck and HealingThe followers of a kind, generous god, who is said to be the god to be praised when a gambler hits the jackpot at the slots, or when a doctor performs a medical miracle under the most impossible circumstances. These followers are often referred to as Doagolah's, and are famed for their insane resiliance and supreme luck.

Flow of Time (Ex) = Gambler's Prayer (Ex): A doagolah can make a quick, muttered prayer to his god, and be graced with the overflowing power of luck. While graced in such a way, the doagolah finds himself blessed with the gift of luck in everything he tries (reroll), and that others can barely seem to touch him, as circumstance seems to knock their blows away (bonus to Wisdom and Dexterity). (Same with Greater Flow of Time and Ideal Flow of Time, they turn to Greater Gambler's Prayer and Ideal Gambler's Prayer)

Walk the Aeons (Ex) = Gambler's Grace (Ex): A doagolah is a disciple of gambling, and, to be a good gambler, one must be wise, and know when to take risks, and when not to. A doagolah is gifted in this way, and knows when to move, and when not to.

Temporal Strike = Lucky Slash: A doagolah is so blessed with luck, that, even when he is blinded, his attacks seem to hit home, inexplicibly, and hit just the right place to wind the foe, even when he doesn't aim.

Fast Healing (Ex) = Gift of Healing (Ex): A doagolah's god is so powerful and overflowing with life energies and miraculous healing powers, that, just by following him, a doagolah heals, wounds knitting together almost instantly.

Delay = Bluff: When you have learned that you have to know when to take a risk, and when not to, you next learn, to make your opponent take a risk, or hold back, when they otherwise wouldn't. (Same with Greater Delay, it turns to Greater Bluff)

Time Sync (Ex) = Divine Luck (Ex): A doagolah is so lucky, that not even the thickest armor can seem to deflect his attacks, as his weapon just seems to find the cracks in the joints.

Annul (Ex) = You Gotta Know When to Hold 'Em (Ex): Doagolah's know the ways of their god exceedingly well, and of his dual nature between luck and healing. Because of this, they eventually learn that they can forsake the gifts of his luck, in exchange for his divine healing, channeling his spirit in many different ways.

Moment Stop = Stumble: When you worship the granter of luck and miracles, even the imbalancings of your step work in your favor, at times. (Same with Improved Moment Stop, it turns to Improved Stumble)

Fearless = Bravery: Luck cannot be seen unless risks are taken, and so, after a time, a doagolah learns to never fear not knowing what's going to happen, and plunge themselves ahead without flinching.

Renewal (Ex) = Second Wind (Ex): The most devout of the doagolah's eventually find their long sessions of prayer rewarded, and that, at the perfect moment, they feel the pain of their body be shrugged off, and, as though by a miracle, they are ready to fight again.

Foresight (Ex) = Gambler's Guidance (Ex): Luck ammounts to great things in the hands of truly wise men, such as the most practiced doagolahs.

Dichotomy (Ex) = Gift of Self (Ex): The god of the doagolah's is powerful beyond mere mundane miracle's, and, will eventually grant the most powerful of his followers a truly miraculous power: the ability to embody his own dual nature, allowing that follower to exist in two places at once, with one representing the god's power of luck and receiving, and the other representing the god's power of healing and giving.


Descendant of a Union of Good and EvilEvery once so often, the forces of good and evil meet, not in battle, but in grace, working together to create glorious things, and resulting in strange times, where powers are twinned with each other in a way that is never seen. During times like this, even Balors and Solars may become interested in each other, and seek to have a family. The children created from such a union, are exceedingly powerful, as they are gifted by both the darkness, and the light.

Flow of Time (Ex) = Two-Tone Blessing (Ex): Such a child can tap into the powers in their own soul, and channel them in such a way as to grant himself the aggression of the dark, and the protection of the light. When tapping into his soul, such a child is graced with the grace of an angel (bonus to Wisdom and Dexterity), and the relentlessness of a demon (reroll). (Same with Greater Flow of Time and Ideal Flow of Time, they turn to Greater Two-Tone Blessing and Ideal Two-Tone Blessing)

Walk the Aeons (Ex) = Guide of the Gray (Ex): A child of darkness and light is gifted in that he can see the workings of both ways, and everything in between, allowing him to protect himself from all that he is faced with, shoul he be wise enough.

Temporal Strike = Condemnation: When the shadow of evil burns within your soul, you find that you have the power to condemn a soul, and strike them down with inexorible force.

Fast Healing (Ex) = Holy Soul (Ex): When the light of good shines deep within your heart, you are gifted, and healed just through your sheer existance, as you have the heart of an angel.

Delay = Fallen Step: A child of evil finds that he can take away parts of the lives of others, making them miss a step by merely attempting to do so. (Same with Greater Delay, it turns to Greater Fallen Step)

Time Sync (Ex) = Dark Soul (Ex): Within the core of the darkness, one will find that aggression is a way of life, and that even the most inaccurate attacks will strike home inexoriably.

Annul (Ex) = Grace (Ex): Within the brightest light, one will find even the most greivious wounds wiped away, with merely the wish to be good.

Moment Stop = Extra Step: A child of good finds that he is gifted with more than others, and that he is able to go farther, with more energy, that the poor ones of the world. (Same with Improved Moment Stop, it turns to Improved Extra Step)

Fearless = Shadow Protection: Those who dwell in the dark are what needs to be feared, they are the nightmares, and the screams of terror in the night, and they have nothing to fear.

Renewal (Ex) = Light Protection (Ex): Those who dwell in the light are empowered by the energy of life, and they can shrug away even the most terrible blows as they find themselves healed at the perfect moments.

Foresight (Ex) = Balance (Ex): When the contrast of good and evil are perfected, they can be found to magnify each other influences on the other, and grow into exponential power.

Dichotomy (Ex) = Black and White (Ex): Despite the fact that good and evil can co-exist, and work together to amazing result, the fact still remains that they are polar opposites of each other, making it so that they can cause some strange effects at time. This goes so far that one imbued with the powers of good and evil, can actually split himself, and exist as both, at the same time.


Electric ManSometimes, when a person has been struck by lightning a few too many times, or when he has been to an pseudo-elemental plane of lightning, or when he has a a shocker lizard in the family, he finds that he can control pure energy, in strange ways, at times.

Flow of Time (Ex) = Electromagnetics (Ex): An electric man can drench the world with electrical energy with a mere flick of his hand, allowing him to manipulate the world slightly, see, through the use of subtle electrovision, the movements of enemies before they make them (bonus to Wisdom and Dexterity), and twist the shape of space slightly to give himself more leeway (reroll). (Same with Greater Flow of Time and Ideal Flow of Time, they turn to Greater Electromagnetics and Ideal Electromagnetics)

Walk the Aeons (Ex) = Armor of Currents (Ex): When you are bursting at the seams with electrical energy, you find that you can 'feel' through the currents that encase you, and direct the charges in the air around you to make swinging a weapon at you more difficult.

Temporal Strike = Plasma Strike: You can superheat your weapon by shooting a bolt of electrical plasma down through it, allowing you to make an attack that seems to be draw to your foes like a magnet.

Fast Healing (Ex) = Rapid Regeneration (Ex): Your cells are super-saturated with energy, making it so that, when you are wounded, they divide rapidly, and knit back together in an instant, allowing you to heal in the blink of an eye.

Delay = Paralytic: When you can control electricity as much as you can, you can manipulate it, and send soft, but violent charges into a foe, making them jerk and miss an openning. (Same with Greater Delay, it turns to Greater Paralytic)

Time Sync (Ex) = Voltage (Ex): You have the ability to make your attacks seem to be comprized of pure electricity, making even a touch from one of them carry the full effects of the attack.

Annul (Ex) = Metabolic Overdrive (Ex): An electric man can choose to drench himself with energy, instead of drenching the air around him, forsaking the manipulation he has, in exchange for overwhelming metabolic energization.

Moment Stop = Transposition: You can super charge your body with energy so much, that you seem to vibrate where you stand, and can suddenly seem to teleport across short distances. (Same with Improved Moment Stop, it turns to Improved Transposition)

Fearless = The Thunder: Thunder scares everyone, often more than other things do, but, when you live with it for every waking moment of your life, you learn to grow numb to it, and become lacking in the gut fear the sound invokes.

Renewal (Ex) = Vital Spark (Ex): Without energy, life does not exist, and, with an ocean of it at your fingertips, you find that it is difficult to snuff out, as it can be restored to full with a mere push.

Foresight (Ex) = Lightning Reactions (Ex): When you are of lightning, they your reactions are of lightning, as you move with hardly a whisper of a provoking.

Dichotomy (Ex) = Electromagnetic Clone (Ex): Eventually, an electric man can manipulate the electricity he has control over to the degree that he can make a copy of himself, out of pure plasma, and control it to the tee, without even a second thought.


Metabolic TelepathThose with the gift of psionics are truly powerful entities to behold, as they can manipulate themselves on even the cellular level, and see into the minds of others. Due to this, psionically gifted ones are truly terrifying creatures to stand before.

Flow of Time (Ex) = Mental Glare (Ex): A metabolic telepath can, at times, burst out of his own mind, and invade those of others, seeing their intentions and planning in accordance with them, often avoiding attacks (bonus to Wisdom and Dexterity) or making sure that theirs hit home because of this (reroll). (Same with Greater Flow of Time and Ideal Flow of Time, they turn to Greater Mental Glare and Ideal Mental Glare)

Walk the Aeons (Ex) = Precognition (Ex): Metabolic telepaths can glance into the future by a split second, allowing themselves to dodge attacks with little effort.

Temporal Strike = Psychic Blow: A metabolic telepath can make a psychic thrust into the mind of a creature at the same time as making an attack, leaving them open, and drawing them in for the attack.

Fast Healing (Ex) = Heighten Metabolism (Ex): A metabolic telepath has the ability to force their cells to divide and grow at astronomical rates, healing in moments, instead of hours.

Delay = Mental Burst: A metabolic telepath can reach into a creatures mind, if they wish, and make them seem to falter for a moment, as they feel themselves bumped out of their minds for an instant. (Same with Greater Delay, it turns to Greater Mental Burst)

Time Sync (Ex) = Metaphysics (Ex): A metabolic telepath of sufficient power can attck things greater than a psychc body, and can cut through things much more vunerable, to the horror of the foe at hand.

Annul (Ex) = Focused Metabolism (Ex): By turning themselves inward, a metabolic telepath can turn themselves away from the minds of others, and release within themselves, an explosion of metabolic activity, healing themselves instantly.

Moment Stop = Shunt: A metabolic telepath is able to shift themselves to the side, when they need to, with nothing more than a mental push. (Same with Improved Moment Stop, it turns to Improved Shunt)

Fearless = Steel Mind: A metabolic telepath can see into the minds of others, and can see from that, what to fear and what not to fear.

Renewal (Ex) = Subliminal Brace (Ex): A metabolic telepath can, at times, prepare themselves, without even realizing it, and find that they are able to take a lot more damage then they thought they could.

Foresight (Ex) = Psychic Pry (Ex): When a metabolic telepath of a certain level attempts to glare into the minds of others, he can often precognisize things beyond even the most adept psychics, and see them coming from entire hours away.

Dichotomy (Ex) = Self Projection (Ex): Eventually, a metabolic telepath grows in power so much, that he can invade the minds of all who exist in the universe, and instill within them the suggestion that two of him exist. At this point, there might as well be two of him, for anything that is perceived as a result of the un-real metabolic telepath, is still perveived as having occured, and it's results are still very real.

Temotei
2010-01-26, 01:13 AM
Electric Man made me think of InFamous when I saw the title.

Too bad it doesn't have anything to do with explosions making someone a superhuman. That would be more of a specific background thing though. :smallamused:

Kuma
2010-01-29, 04:59 PM
While I do not agree that rerolls are overrated, I'm not going to start that whole argument up again...
this is a fun, if in my opinon possibly/slightly overpowered class. i'd allow it in my games though, as long as i didn't have any "Let's derail the world!" players.

Rithaniel
2010-01-29, 06:49 PM
While I do not agree that rerolls are overrated, I'm not going to start that whole argument up again...
this is a fun, if in my opinon possibly/slightly overpowered class. i'd allow it in my games though, as long as i didn't have any "Let's derail the world!" players.

Well, if you have any "Let's derail the world!" players, you're gonna want to keep them away from Wizards and Cleric/Crusaders, cause, really, that's what is gonna be scary for them to have. A single reroll a round, not so much :smallbiggrin::xykon:

DragoonWraith
2010-01-30, 01:13 AM
So... where are those ACFs you asked me to look at?

Rithaniel
2010-01-30, 04:48 AM
So... where are those ACFs you asked me to look at?

Is the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140168) invisible to everybody but me? Or is there something else going on?

Funinyourgame
2011-10-29, 10:40 AM
Just to be sure, do you still need the Fluff for your abilities cause I really like the Class, wanna play it and help if you need.

BTW: I thought about it and you could reduce the quantity of reroll from 1 by turn to Lvl+2/day or encounter. Also, you could change de fact that you can choose tu use one of your daily reroll to heal from lvl+wisdom modificator instead of every time you don't use it, low lvl is just usefull (not too much) and high lvl give you a good healing but not take the place of the healer (less heal and only on yourself)

Hope it help and have a nice day ^^