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Lubirio
2010-01-21, 05:49 AM
Ambidexterity [General]

You are able to use both hands equally well, this gives you several benefits when others are at a loss because of their lesser hand.

Prerequisites
Dex 15.

Benefit
When Two-Weapon Fighting, the penalty on both your hands is lessened by a stackable 2, in addition, you can designate any hand as your primary hand, switching weapons accordingly, but you must still attack with both weapons in any given round you make a full attack, and you add 1x your Str mod to weapon damage rolls made with your off-hand. You also get a +2 bonus to Disable Device, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Use Rope checks and Forgery checks only to forge, but only if both hands are involved in the check.

Normal
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each, these penalties are reduced by 2 on your main hand and 6 on your off-hand if you also have the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat. You can only add 0.5x your str mod to weapon damage rolls made with your off-hand.

Special
A fighter may select Ambidexterity as one of his fighter bonus feats.


What do you think, over-/under-powered? neat/sloppy?

People who have helped me:
Latronis
Drolyt, x2
Xefas
Roderick_BR
Ashtagon
term1nally s1ck

Latronis
2010-01-21, 06:01 AM
I just use a 'attacks made with your offhand now use your full strength modifier to damage'

though thats usuallly as a class ability or function of a combat style rather than an actual feat.

The skill check bonuses are an interesting boon too

Pigkappa
2010-01-21, 06:08 AM
I wouldn't require two-weapon fighting as a prerequisite... Most of the ambidextrous people in the world aren't skilled with weapons.

Eloel
2010-01-21, 06:14 AM
Requiring TWF, and giving bonuses to THF? Wha?

Latronis
2010-01-21, 06:25 AM
I think the extra strength to damage with the offhand should be a function of the two-weapon fighting feat.

an ambidexterity feat shouldn't have it as a prereq. (though should probably have some dex as a prereq) Then remove the offhand designation. So you don't need a light weapon to get down to the -2 mainhand, -2 offhand. Use rope should get the same bonus as the other dex skills. Perhaps +2 if you have both hands free.

Sir Shadow
2010-01-21, 08:18 AM
there's already a feat named Ambidexterous, I think it'd be better to come up with a new name <_<

Lubirio
2010-01-21, 08:27 AM
There is? What is it in?

Also, thanks for the feedback, and I think Use Rope should indeed have the skill bonus as well.

I could, of course, change the feat altogether: keep the prereqs, then just make it so that you have a +1 to all TWF attacks, for optimal use of -1 to both hands, and lose the skill bonuses.

There's already a feat that lets you use a one-handed weapon in your off-hand and keep the penalty as if it were a ligth weapon, it's called Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, I believe it's in Complete Adventurer.

Or I could make it so that you can designate ether hand as your main hand, as you see fit, and don't change the str bonus at all, but keep the skill bonuses

Drolyt
2010-01-21, 08:38 AM
There is? What is it in?

Also, thanks for the feedback, and I think Use Rope should indeed have the skill bonus as well.

I could, of course, change the feat altogether: keep the prereqs, then just make it so that you have a +1 to all TWF attacks, for optimal use of -1 to both hands, and lose the skill bonuses.

There's already a feat that lets you use a one-handed weapon in your off-hand and keep the penalty as if it were a ligth weapon, it's called Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, I believe it's in Complete Adventurer.

Or I could make it so that you can designate ether hand as your main hand, as you see fit, and don't change the str bonus at all, but keep the skill bonuses

Ambidextrous was a feat in 3rd edition. It was useless but for the fact that it was a requirement for Two-Weapon Fighting. At any rate this feat is okay but it should probably have some different benefits. Making it so your off hand dealing just as much damage makes sense, but making a two-handed weapon deal more damage really doesn't. I'm not sure about the skill bonuses either. Logically it would subsume the benefits of Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, but then that feat would be worthless. Don' make it give a bonus to attack rolls on two weapon fighting, that's already a good combat style if done correctly.

Lubirio
2010-01-21, 08:40 AM
So then what are you suggesting I do? I don't see what you're getting at.

Edit: Though I could make Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting a prereq... :smallconfused:

Drolyt
2010-01-21, 08:46 AM
So then what are you suggesting I do? I don't see what you're getting at.

Edit: Though I could make Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting a prereq... :smallconfused:

I wasn't really going anywhere. You could make it so the feat makes everything even between your hands, so when two weapon fighting you can wield a one-handed weapon in your off hand with no penalty, and both hands deal x1 strength damage. It would also have benefits in the rather odd situation ambidexterity would be advantages, and it might warrant some skill bonuses, I just don't know which ones. Though if you did all that you should make it a prereq for Two-Weapon Fighting, since it is implied that anyone with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat is Ambidextrous.

Lubirio
2010-01-21, 09:00 AM
I personally believe it wouldn't be a prereq for two-weapon fighting as much as it would be useful for people using that, I could add the prereq of Oversized two-weapon fighting, and delete the 2x str mod to damage on two-handed weapons, keeping the skill bonus.

Milskidasith
2010-01-21, 12:56 PM
I personally believe it wouldn't be a prereq for two-weapon fighting as much as it would be useful for people using that, I could add the prereq of Oversized two-weapon fighting, and delete the 2x str mod to damage on two-handed weapons, keeping the skill bonus.

It doesn't need a prereq. There's no point. Being ambidextrous doesn't exactly require you to be able to use big weapons in each hand.

Drolyt
2010-01-21, 01:10 PM
It doesn't need a prereq. There's no point. Being ambidextrous doesn't exactly require you to be able to use big weapons in each hand.

Yeah it makes no sense for Ambidexterity to have such a benefit edit: I meant prerequisite. The problem here is what advantage would being ambidextrous have in D&D? I suppose the more logical benefit is one in accuracy not strength or damage-dealing ability, so I'll take back what I said earlier and say Ambidexterity should give +1/+1 when two-weapon fighting and should give a +2 bonus on skill or ability checks where being able to use your off hand just as well as your main would be useful.

Lubirio
2010-01-21, 01:19 PM
Thanks, that helps a lot.

So, as an example, ambidexterity in use:
We have a human fighter with Str 16, and the following feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, and Ambidexterity.

He can attack with his longsword as a standard action as +4 melee, or with both his longsword and his shortsword as +3 melee and +3 melee.

That seems about right.

DueceEsMachine
2010-01-21, 01:45 PM
Well, you could maybe do something along the lines of This:

Ambidexterity
Through long hours of training, or perhaps an amazing amount of natural aptitude, you have no dominant hand, as both work equally well.
Prerequisite: Dex 15
Benefit: When weilding a weapon of your size or smaller, you are treated as having the weapon finesse feat, allowing you to use your dexterity bonus on attack rolls rather than your strength bonus. This benefit works with either hand equally. If you also posess the Weapon Finesse feat, you are so amazingly agile and precise with your strikes that you are able to use your dexterity bonus rather than strength bonus on melee damage rolls.

I don't know if that is better or worse, but just the first thing I came up with.

I just figure, since the feat is ambi-dextrous- it should focus more along those lines than just how strong you are. Maybe this is a little closer to what you were looking for?

Lubirio
2010-01-21, 01:54 PM
What you have basically looks like a beefed-up version of Weapon finesse that works with non-finesse weapons, and then a random bonus to damage if you also have the weapon finesse feat. Or am I completely off the mark? :smallconfused:

Drolyt
2010-01-21, 01:54 PM
Well, you could maybe do something along the lines of This:

Ambidexterity
Through long hours of training, or perhaps an amazing amount of natural aptitude, you have no dominant hand, as both work equally well.
Prerequisite: Dex 15
Benefit: When weilding a weapon of your size or smaller, you are treated as having the weapon finesse feat, allowing you to use your dexterity bonus on attack rolls rather than your strength bonus. This benefit works with either hand equally. If you also posess the Weapon Finesse feat, you are so amazingly agile and precise with your strikes that you are able to use your dexterity bonus rather than strength bonus on melee damage rolls.

I don't know if that is better or worse, but just the first thing I came up with.

I just figure, since the feat is ambi-dextrous- it should focus more along those lines than just how strong you are. Maybe this is a little closer to what you were looking for?

But the whole point of ambidextrous is that you can use both your hands just as well. The bonus you give doesn't really capture that flavor at all.

DueceEsMachine
2010-01-21, 01:57 PM
Well, I was just trying to throw an idea out there.

One of the things with two weapon fighting is only using half of your strength bonus on your off hand, so using your full dexterity bonus for both would make them equal, and I just threw the weapon finesse thing in there to try and keep from making it obsolete, since that came up earlier in the post.

As far as using weapons that are not allowed with weapon finesse, I don't know, I just put that in there because I was trying to avoid the idea of someone dual-weilding greatswords with their dex bonus. Better wording would be a requirement.

Edit: I hadn't seen your revised version at the top of the thread until just now. That does look good.

Random_person
2010-01-21, 02:07 PM
What about andexterity, being equally useless with both hands? No-handedness, if you will. I have a friend with that problem: how would you treat it mechanically?

Xefas
2010-01-21, 02:13 PM
I don't think I'd ever take this feat ever for anything, mechanically speaking. Flavor wise, 'ambidexterity' isn't a huge part of a character's fluff, and can be discarded rather easily. Still, there's no reason to sacrifice mechanical soundness for flavor. How about something that scales? And makes Two-Weapon Fighting actually worth using? I mean, with this feat you have here, you can either take it, and take two-weapon fighting, or you could simply wield a 2h weapon and do more damage with no feat investiture.

So how about this.

Ambidexterity
Prerequisite: Dex 13
Benefit: You take no penalty for wielding a one handed weapon in your main hand and a light weapon in your offhand. You may freely designate which hand is your offhand and which is your mainhand.

At 3rd level, you may use either your dexterity or strength modifier (whichever is better) on melee attack and damage rolls while wielding two melee weapons.

At 5th level, you may wield a one-handed weapon in your off-hand as if it were a light weapon, and your off-hand receives full benefit from your strength modifier.

In addition, when you have both hands free, you gain a +1 bonus on all strength and dexterity skill checks per 3 character levels.

-----
I would say this is almost worth taking. Almost. With a feat used, you become almost as good as someone who just uses a 2h weapon, charges, and power attacks. The skill bonus is meh, as past the early levels, you should really be flying, which renders most effected skills moot.

Drolyt
2010-01-21, 02:34 PM
You know, I've heard a lot of people contend that a two-handed weapon does more damage than wielding two weapons. I just don't see how that could be correct when I try to calculate it mathematically, especially if you have a weapon with one of the elemental enhancements or some other bonus to damage.

Milskidasith
2010-01-21, 02:38 PM
You know, I've heard a lot of people contend that a two-handed weapon does more damage than wielding two weapons. I just don't see how that could be correct when I try to calculate it mathematically, especially if you have a weapon with one of the elemental enhancements or some other bonus to damage.

Leap attack, Shock Trooper, Spirited charge, etc. The extra strength damage massively adds up and gets multiplied using all that, while using TWF gets none of those benefits.

Xefas
2010-01-21, 02:46 PM
You know, I've heard a lot of people contend that a two-handed weapon does more damage than wielding two weapons. I just don't see how that could be correct when I try to calculate it mathematically, especially if you have a weapon with one of the elemental enhancements or some other bonus to damage.

Well, comparing two fighters; Fighter A fights with two weapons. Fighter B uses 2handers.

Fighter A takes an obscene penalty on attacks rolls unless they invest points in Dexterity (at least 15, so his strength is probably only 16) and a feat (which they still take a -2 on their attacks). In addition, one of those has to be a light weapon or there's an even bigger penalty unless you invest another feat into it. And your strength still only applies 1/2 to your off-hand.

Meanwhile, Fighter B just uses a Greatsword. With the extra points he got for dumping Dex, he probably has an 18 strength. Which is multiplied by 1.5 for his 2hand weapon.

So, Fighter A probably does about 1d8+3 and 1d6+1, with a -2 penalty on attacks, and a feat down. 12 damage average.

Fighter B does about 2d6+6 damage. No penalty. No feat invested. Average 13 damage. And he hits 10% more often. And he has an extra feat.

This only gets worse with Power Attack, as Fighter B skyrockets with a 2:1 ratio, Fighter A is really sunk. He already has a penalty to his attacks, and his Power Attack ratio is 1:1. He'll never do nearly as much damage once they start gaining levels.

Lubirio
2010-01-21, 04:45 PM
Well, the feat is partially meant for flavor anyway, but if you use monkey grip, and oversized TWF, you can wield a large longsword (2d6 damage) in one hand with a -4 penalty, and a regular longsword in the other hand with a -2 penalty.

Even though TWF is a massive feat investment, it can definitely pay up if you do it right.

Drolyt
2010-01-21, 04:55 PM
Well, comparing two fighters; Fighter A fights with two weapons. Fighter B uses 2handers.

Fighter A takes an obscene penalty on attacks rolls unless they invest points in Dexterity (at least 15, so his strength is probably only 16) and a feat (which they still take a -2 on their attacks). In addition, one of those has to be a light weapon or there's an even bigger penalty unless you invest another feat into it. And your strength still only applies 1/2 to your off-hand.

Meanwhile, Fighter B just uses a Greatsword. With the extra points he got for dumping Dex, he probably has an 18 strength. Which is multiplied by 1.5 for his 2hand weapon.

So, Fighter A probably does about 1d8+3 and 1d6+1, with a -2 penalty on attacks, and a feat down. 12 damage average.

Fighter B does about 2d6+6 damage. No penalty. No feat invested. Average 13 damage. And he hits 10% more often. And he has an extra feat.

This only gets worse with Power Attack, as Fighter B skyrockets with a 2:1 ratio, Fighter A is really sunk. He already has a penalty to his attacks, and his Power Attack ratio is 1:1. He'll never do nearly as much damage once they start gaining levels.

Well, I suppose. Though two-weapon fighting is superior against high AC foes.

Xefas
2010-01-21, 05:03 PM
Well, the feat is partially meant for flavor anyway, but if you use monkey grip, and oversized TWF, you can wield a large longsword (2d6 damage) in one hand with a -4 penalty, and a regular longsword in the other hand with a -2 penalty.

Even though TWF is a massive feat investment, it can definitely pay up if you do it right.

I can't tell if you're being serious or not.

So (not dealing with magic items), you spend three feats to deal around 2d6+3 and 1d8+1 damage. Average 15.5 damage. At a penalty.

And the other guy uses a Greatsword. Takes Power Attack and Leap Attack. He Power Attacks for -4 on his attack roll, the same as your mainhand. And deals 2d6+6+12 damage. Average 25 damage. And he doesn't have to worry about the penalty on the first guy's offhand. And he has an extra feat.

Monkey Grip and Oversized Two Weapon Fighting are terrible feats. The first actually *lowers* your damage output generally, and the second only gives you on average 1-2 extra damage. You could at least use the Strongarm Bracers from Magic Item Compendium to give you Monkey Grip without the penalty. S'only like...what...4k maybe?


Well, I suppose. Though two-weapon fighting is superior against high AC foes.

It's worse in every way. You take a higher base penalty (wheres 2Hand Power Attack can adjust their attack bonus as needed), and have less feats which can be used to augment your attacks to do better against high AC foes. Not to mention Shocktrooper.

Drolyt
2010-01-21, 05:12 PM
I can't tell if you're being serious or not.

So (not dealing with magic items), you spend three feats to deal around 2d6+3 and 1d8+1 damage. Average 15.5 damage. At a penalty.

And the other guy uses a Greatsword. Takes Power Attack and Leap Attack. He Power Attacks for -4 on his attack roll, the same as your mainhand. And deals 2d6+6+12 damage. Average 25 damage. And he doesn't have to worry about the penalty on the first guy's offhand. And he has an extra feat.

Monkey Grip and Oversized Two Weapon Fighting are terrible feats. The first actually *lowers* your damage output generally, and the second only gives you on average 1-2 extra damage. You could at least use the Strongarm Bracers from Magic Item Compendium to give you Monkey Grip without the penalty. S'only like...what...4k maybe?



It's worse in every way. You take a higher base penalty (wheres 2Hand Power Attack can adjust their attack bonus as needed), and have less feats which can be used to augment your attacks to do better against high AC foes. Not to mention Shocktrooper.

Well... I'm only really used to playing spellcasters, so I'll take your word for it.

Xefas
2010-01-21, 05:16 PM
Well... I'm only really used to playing spellcasters, so I'll take your word for it.

Well, this is all obviated by just playing whatever kind of character you want and not caring about putting out optimal mechanics.

Or Tome of Battle.

Do both for the double win.

Lubirio
2010-01-21, 05:17 PM
I guess I wasn't subtle enough, you caught me.

So yes, it is purely for flavor, so I guess having the feat eliminate the penalty for TWF entirely is better, making it somewhat more enticing.

Edit: I also upped the skill bonus a little bit. :smallwink:

Drolyt
2010-01-21, 05:23 PM
Well, this is all obviated by just playing whatever kind of character you want and not caring about putting out optimal mechanics.

Or Tome of Battle.

Do both for the double win.

Tome of Battle is cool, though it always annoyed me that they created that instead of finding some way to fix the classes in the PHB. So yeah I haven't a clue about optimizing meleers, but there really isn't any point in playing a meleer except for fun, since even a blaster wizard is stronger (though to be fair I've built blaster wizards that could kill gods in one hit pre-epic without either a saving throw or spell resistance; in fact such builds are quite common, I'm not sure why anybody thought Pun Pun was even necessary, but I'm trailing off topic...).

Baron Corm
2010-01-21, 08:09 PM
Didn't read most of the posts in this thread, but one part of the feat you have there doesn't make sense. You grant a bonus to certain skill checks when the character has only one hand free... why? It should be added only when both hands are free, otherwise how is an ambidextrous character using his advantage?

I think the suggestion about making your off-hand deal equal Strength damage to your main hand makes a lot of sense to add to this feat as well.

Latronis
2010-01-21, 11:05 PM
You can be effective with two-weapons with a lot of feat investment.. But so much feat investment mechanically *should* give you an edge over those without as much feat investment to be merely functional.

Instead I'd suggest just pooling all the existing twf feats together and see what they do, right out a list of points of what should and shouldn't be done compared to non-twf and give those options for a lesser number of feats. Something like the extra strength damage to offhand could be a function of the base twf feat, (as in basic training with 2 weapons should let you use it to it's full, though with the default attack penalty compared to a single weapon) something like hitting with both weapons on a charge could even be a default option.

Temotei
2010-01-21, 11:30 PM
You can be effective with two-weapons with a lot of feat investment.. But so much feat investment mechanically *should* give you an edge over those with as much feat investment to be merely functional.

Instead I'd suggest just pooling all the existing twf feats together and see what they do, right out a list of points of what should and shouldn't be done compared to non-twf and give those options for a lesser number of feats. Something like the extra strength damage to offhand could be a function of the base twf feat, (as in basic training with 2 weapons should let you use it to it's full, though with the default attack penalty compared to a single weapon) something like hitting with both weapons on a charge could even be a default option.

Agreed. Nine attacks aren't that useful when you hit with three and they do less damage than one attack from a greatsword-user.

Lubirio
2010-01-22, 06:51 AM
So, general TWF comments aside, I could make the skill bonus only apply when both hands are free, and put back full str mod to damage on your off-hand weapon?

Drolyt
2010-01-22, 07:17 AM
So, general TWF comments aside, I could make the skill bonus only apply when both hands are free, and put back full str mod to damage on your off-hand weapon?

Yeah do all that, also I think you should get a bonus to forgery checks since you can forge things made by both righties and lefties.

Roderick_BR
2010-01-22, 11:22 AM
Increase the req to Dex 15 or more (the original had it, I think), and drop the TWF. Then it's perfect. Seriously, no one will find it overpowered, giving all the restrictions TWF already get.

In 3.5, it was added to the TWF feat, and there's now a class feature of the PrC Tempest with that name that does what you want here (complete warrior, I believe). I think that having a whole PrC just for TWF was as bad as a whole PrC to be expert in a weapon (3.0 had weapon master, but some of it's skills were turned into high level fighter feats, and the class was not updated on 3.5).

Temotei
2010-01-22, 02:22 PM
Increase the req to Dex 15 or more (the original had it, I think), and drop the TWF. Then it's perfect. Seriously, no one will find it overpowered, giving all the restrictions TWF already get.

In 3.5, it was added to the TWF feat, and there's now a class feature of the PrC Tempest with that name that does what you want here (complete warrior, I believe). I think that having a whole PrC just for TWF was as bad as a whole PrC to be expert in a weapon (3.0 had weapon master, but some of it's skills were turned into high level fighter feats, and the class was not updated on 3.5).

Exotic weapon master?

Latronis
2010-01-22, 02:24 PM
Exotic weapon master?

well that's hardly the same thing. 3 weapon tricks over 3 levels is not the same as a 10lv prc that specialises in a single weapon so completely. Mind you, most fighters tend towards taking feats that pretty much emulate 3rd's weapon master fairly well before or while PrC'ing anyway.

Drolyt
2010-01-22, 02:35 PM
well that's hardly the same thing. 3 weapon tricks over 3 levels is not the same as a 10lv prc that specialises in a single weapon so completely. Mind you, most fighters tend towards taking feats that pretty much emulate 3rd's weapon master fairly well before or while PrC'ing anyway.

That's only because Fighters run out of better options for feats. By the way, this should probably be a Fighter Bonus Feat.

Roderick_BR
2010-01-22, 02:35 PM
Exotic weapon master?
No. 3.0 weapon master would gain Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization class features (both turned into feats in 3.5), improved critical (that enchanged the feat), the ability to deal maximum damage with his weapon a number of times/days OR to increase his critical damage a number of times/day.
3.0 exotic weapon master was a guy that gained weapon focus and specialization with any exotic and improvised weapon. Kinda lame.

Lubirio
2010-01-22, 04:24 PM
Thanks, I think I've got the final version of it now, do you think it's worth taking?

Ashtagon
2010-01-22, 05:02 PM
You also get a +2 bonus to Disable Device, Forgery, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, and Use Rope checks, but only if both hands are free.

Change to: "...but only if both hands are engaged in that skill task". Technically, if a hand is involved in performing a particular skill task, it isn't "free".

I'm not sure Forgery belongs in the list of skills, but it's not critical.

Drolyt
2010-01-22, 05:02 PM
Thanks, I think I've got the final version of it now, do you think it's worth taking?

Well, it's now a must have for anyone who is wielding two-weapons. Nobody would take it for the skill bonuses alone, although they are nice. As for whether it makes two-weapon fighting worth it, it's still a crap load of feats (in fact even more), but now at least it compares better to other options.

Lubirio
2010-01-22, 05:43 PM
Well in this way, you can, with three feats (TWF, Oversized TWF, and Ambidexterity) obtainable with any 1st level character who has two flaws, use two identical weapons for identical damage, 1d8+str mod, if using longswords.

Ans thanks for the wording Ashtagon, I usually try to make it sound clear, but that's much better, I'll change it, and make forgery only on forging, not opposed forgery to identify a forge.

Drolyt
2010-01-22, 05:53 PM
Well in this way, you can, with three feats (TWF, Oversized TWF, and Ambidexterity) obtainable with any 1st level character who has two flaws, use two identical weapons for identical damage, 1d8+str mod, if using longswords.

Ans thanks for the wording Ashtagon, I usually try to make it sound clear, but that's much better, I'll change it, and make forgery only on forging, not opposed forgery to identify a forge.

I always hated flaws. But a 1st Level Human Fighter, or perhaps a 2nd Level Human Ranger could pull that off. How about a special section saying that Ranger can take it without the Dex requirement? Otherwise Rangers kinda get screwed if this feat is allowed. Lets see, 2d8+2xStr Mod, if you hit twice, 1d8+Str Mod if you only hit once. Pretty good.

Lubirio
2010-01-22, 05:57 PM
I can say that if rangers already have TWF as a feat, they can choose this at 2nd level instead, but TWF also has Dex 15 as a prereq, so they're screwed either way. :smallbiggrin:

Latronis
2010-01-29, 07:34 AM
When Two-Weapon Fighting, the penalty on both your hands is lessened by a stackable 2, in addition, you can designate any hand as your primary hand, switching weapons accordingly, as you please,

Is that inbetween attacks? Allowing you to basically just pool all your attacks together and use which ever for which ever weapon you desire at the time. That's kinda cool. If it's not the rules already let you designate which weapon is the offhand between rounds.

Lubirio
2010-01-29, 05:33 PM
Yes. Using this feat in sync with Two-Weapon Fighting (and Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting if you use one-handed weapons rather than light) effectively makes the attacks for both hands identical, allowing you to effectively attack twice as much as regular. :smallbiggrin:

term1nally s1ck
2010-02-06, 02:34 PM
in addition, you can designate any hand as your primary hand, switching weapons accordingly, as you please

This is cheese.

I wield a +5 shocking flaming etc.... longsword in one hand. I wield a mundane longsword in the other.

I have the full TWF tree, and this feat.

I make my 4 attacks with the magic longsword in my primary hand, then designate it as my off hand before making my 3 attacks with my off-hand weapon. Which is the same magic longsword.

Latronis
2010-02-06, 03:19 PM
in addition, you can designate any hand as your primary hand, switching weapons accordingly, as you please

This is cheese.

I wield a +5 shocking flaming etc.... longsword in one hand. I wield a mundane longsword in the other.

I have the full TWF tree, and this feat.

I make my 4 attacks with the magic longsword in my primary hand, then designate it as my off hand before making my 3 attacks with my off-hand weapon. Which is the same magic longsword.

And you still suck compared to the 2hand user with an equivalently enchanted weapon

term1nally s1ck
2010-02-06, 03:35 PM
That's more due to the amount of multipliers you can stack on a charge...having said that, you only lose 2-3 of those extra x1s by not Two handing...the rest of the multipliers could be used by a TWFer as well...and he gets a multiplicative x2 for having two attacks....so he wins out.

Lubirio
2010-02-06, 07:21 PM
The 'cheese' part, doesn't mean you get to switch weapons as you fight, you can't use the same weapon over and over again and just keep switching it between hands. I guess I should've clarified that, it should say, "Between rounds" instead of "as you please". I will change it now.


And you still suck compared to the 2hand user with an equivalently enchanted weapon

This thread is not here for you to criticize TWF, it is for me to try and introduce a way to make TWF somewhat more viable. I realize it doesn't cover everything, but it sure as hell pumps up the power at least a little bit, if not by the x1 Str mod to damage on off-hand attacks rather than x0.5 Str mod, then by reducing the penalty for TWF to nothing.

term1nally s1ck
2010-02-06, 09:38 PM
I take all the ubercharger tricks (from person-man's guide):

* Lance: Multiplies damage on Charge from a mount. Remember that you can use it two handed, or with Oversized Two Weapon Fighting and Pounce. Also a reach weapon, which is pretty much a requirement for many melee builds. PHB.
* Spirited Charge: Multiplies damage on Charge from a mount. PHB.
* Riding Boots: Unnamed bonus to Ride, and if you have Spirited Charge you further multiply your damage when you Charge. DMGII pg 270.
* Headlong Rush: Multiplies damage on any Charge, but provokes an attack of opportunity from everyone who threatens you (including your target). This can be avoided with a reach weapon. Or it can be used to your advantage with a King of Smack Karmic Strike/Vampiric Claws combo. Player's Guide to Faerun.
* Rhino's Rush (Pal 2): Immediate Action spell. Multiplies damage on a Charge. If necessary, make a Wand, and put it in a Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape pg 34). Spell Compendium.
* Battle Jump: Multiplies damage on a Charge if you drop from at least 10 feet above your enemy - which can be done with a moderately high Jump check, or by attacking from higher ground. Unapproachable East.
* Valorous weapon enhancement: Multiplies damage on a Charge. Unapproachable East.
* Anything with a good critical hit range or multiplier. Given the existence of the Scabbard of Keen Edges, I personally never bother with the Keen enhancement or wasting a feat on Improved Critical when there are so many other better options for feats. But this is debatable. PHB/DMG.
* Most things that add extra attacks will also greatly increase your damage output when combined with Power Attack (including natural attacks).

So that's x10 str, x14 Power attack, x7 Other bonuses, to damage. If you take the best way of interpreting the stacking of power attack.

Or, for the Two-lancer, that's (x7str, x7 PA, x7 other bonuses)x2 (2 attacks), for a total of x14 on ALL damage bonuses, if you have pounce...the TWFer wins, with an extra 4x str bonus, and an extra 7x other bonuses.

absolmorph
2010-02-11, 01:12 AM
Damage from the above attack:
Goliath Fighter 20 with 36 str (16+4 race+5 level+5 inherent+6 enhancement)
Effects in use:
Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Battle Jump, Rhino's Rush, Riding Boots, Headlong Rush
+1 Valorous Lance
2d6+1 enhancement+40 PA+13 Str (assuming full use of Shock Trooper, and that I'm remembering the effect correctly)
(2d6+54)x7; average 420 damage
Drop a level or two of fighter for the barbarian (I think) variant that grants pounce and you get 5+ attacks each charge for 7(2d6)+358 damage.
Not bad, I say.

Lubirio
2010-02-11, 01:24 AM
I will not have this thread devolve into a thread tat discusses which is better, Two-Weapon Fighting or two-handed fighting. This thread was made to discuss my homebrew feat Ambidexterity, nothing more, nothing less.

Latronis
2010-02-11, 02:17 AM
The 'cheese' part, doesn't mean you get to switch weapons as you fight, you can't use the same weapon over and over again and just keep switching it between hands. I guess I should've clarified that, it should say, "Between rounds" instead of "as you please". I will change it now.

You can already declare which hand is main and offhand between rounds. Hell you don't even need to drop the second weapon to not take the twf penalties for attacking with only one weapon.


This thread is not here for you to criticize TWF, it is for me to try and introduce a way to make TWF somewhat more viable. I realize it doesn't cover everything, but it sure as hell pumps up the power at least a little bit, if not by the x1 Str mod to damage on off-hand attacks rather than x0.5 Str mod, then by reducing the penalty for TWF to nothing.

If you want to make TWF more viable it needs to be compared to non-twf styles. Even if you could as originally written make every attack with the one weapon it's hardly broken compared to what you can pull off with a two-hander, considering you equivelent enchantment value and without the feat investment to make it viable.