Centaurs... those crazy centaurs

[Thrawn183]

So I'm a bit confused, do centaurs were normal large sized armor or do they wear barding?

[Dragero]

Maybe both?

I have no idea......

[Kelb_Panthera]

Barding. Their bodies don't conform to the humanoid standard of 2 arms 2 legs and a torso with maybe a tail or an extra head or perhaps wings.

[BenTheJester]

So I'm a bit confused, do centaurs were normal large sized armor or do they wear barding?

Haha wow, I never actually wondered about that.

On one hand, the horse part constitutes the major volume of your body, but on the other hand, your vitals are all situated on the humanoid part.

Personally I'd rule for the latter, but RAW says Large armor.


Perhaps you should divide the price of Medium armor by 2, and add that to 3/4 the price of a barding.

[Thrawn183]

Thank heavens it being a half-dragon and having wings doesn't change anything.

Actually, is there an easy way through feats to get a half-dragon's fly speed good maneuverability instead of average?

[Foryn Gilnith]

Improved Flight from RotW does exactly that. Or you could buy a Pectoral of Maneuverability.

[Teron]

Armor For Unusual Creatures (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorForUnusualCreatures)

Barding is just a specific application of those rules, which also apply to centaurs.

[Thurbane]

Also, check with your DM if Centaurs can use Horseshoes of Speed. Continual +30 ft movement bonus for 3000gp? Yes please.

[Thrawn183]

Improved Flight from RotW does exactly that. Or you could buy a Pectoral of Maneuverability.

Well, that's strictly better than Improved Maneuverability from the Draconomicon which does the same thing but requires a fly speed of 150(!) and another feat.

I'm going to assume that heavy armor decreases your fly speed the same as it does your move speed.

[Foryn Gilnith]

If feats in Races of the Dragon are to be believed, any armor heavier than light stops flight, requiring more feats to overcome. BS IMHO, since I think other sources base it off encumbrance rather than armor, but that's what RotD implies.

I assume that the reason Improved Maneuverability isn't completely obsolete is that they would be able to stack.

[Frosty]

If feats in Races of the Dragon are to be believed, any armor heavier than light stops flight, requiring more feats to overcome. BS IMHO, since I think other sources base it off encumbrance rather than armor, but that's what RotD implies.

I assume that the reason Improved Maneuverability isn't completely obsolete is that they would be able to stack.

Having played a succubus paladin and researched the rules, in general, barring race-specific restrictions, a creature can fly regardless of the weight-class of the armor. The creature just can't be loaded beyond MEDIUM load.

[Thrawn183]

If feats in Races of the Dragon are to be believed, any armor heavier than light stops flight, requiring more feats to overcome. BS IMHO, since I think other sources base it off encumbrance rather than armor, but that's what RotD implies.


NoooOOOOOOoo. Oh wait, this guy has a +8 Dex modifier which would make a Mithral Chain shirt a decent choice. Ah well, light armor it is I guess...

Edit: Hmmmm, this guy's medium load is.... carry the two.... 9,648 lbs. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume he's not surpassing that any time soon.

[dyslexicfaser]

On one hand, the horse part constitutes the major volume of your body, but on the other hand, your vitals are all situated on the humanoid part.


That makes me wonder; what would the insides of a centaur look like? Would it have multiple, redundant sets of organs? A horse heart and a human heart, and four lungs, and enough intestine for two beings, etc.?

[Foryn Gilnith]

Frosty, would you care to give some citations? I believe you, but if I want to present this argument to a DM of mine I need text quotes. Mostly due to the existence of contrary quotes:

Most creatures can’t fly if carrying a medium or heavy load. A creature’s description takes precedence over these general rules.

Normal: Flying creatures can’t fly in medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

Much as flying creatures can’t fly while carrying a medium or heavy load

[Skaven]

I always rule they can wear normal large armor, which could also be made to cover the rest of your body with barding of the appropriate type, hence the x2 cost. The humanoid part is normal sized, the x2 comes from the extra barding you're paying for.

You'll be getting your major AC from your +5 chain shirt or whatever, and the x2 base price also covers the rest of your body in barding type chain shirt plates.

[edit]However double checking the rules on barding.. I suppose it could be base cost x4 and would be like.. armor + barding, hmm..

[Thrawn183]

Well for the sake of finishing up this character, I think I'll run with a Mithral Chain Shirt instead of Adamantine Fullplate, even if it does make him weaker. Also, not needing to double the cost of adamantine fullplate is a beautiful, beautiful thing.

[Thrawn183]

Figured this deserved its own post. For everyone interested in how the final build turned out, meet Helicadon: the most bad*** half-human, half-horse and half-dragon you've ever seen.
Half Gold Dragon Centaur Fighter 1/War Hulk 10 (ECL 20, 32 point buy)
Size/Type: Large Dragon
Hit Dice: 5d10+10d12+144 (241 HP)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 90 ft., fly 120 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 48 (10 +9 armor +8 shield +6 Dexterity +1 insight -1 size +12 natural +5 deflection), touch 29, flat-footed 43
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+35 (+11 BAB with Glaive)
Attack: Huge Glaive +39 melee (3d8+44, x3)
Full Attack: Huge Glaive +39/+39/+34/+29 melee (3d8+44, x3) OR 2 Claws +32 melee (1d6+27) and Bite +27 melee (1d8+27) and 2 Hooves +27 melee (1d6+14)
Space/Reach: 10/5 (10 ft. with glaive)
Special Attacks: Breath Weapon 1/day, Massive Swing
Special Qualities: Freedom of Movement, Resist Acid and Cold 10, Darkvision 60 ft., does not need to eat or drink to survive
Immunities: Fire, Paralysis and Sleep effects, death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, negative energy effects, and poison
Saves: Fort +26, Ref +21, Will +23
Abilities: Str 63, Dex 26, Con 28, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills: (+2 all)
Feats : Power Attack, Heavy Shield Specialization, Shield Ward, Endurance, Steadfast Determination, Improved Flight, Improved Speed, Toughness x3
Equipment:

+5 Soulfire Aporter Glammered Mithral Chain Shirt
+2 Holy, Skillful, Speed Huge Cold Iron Glaive
+5 Animated Acid and Cold resistance Glammered Heavy Steel Shield
Gloves of Dexterity +6
Belt of Giants Strength +6
Vest of Health +6
Cloak of Resistance +5
Ring of Protection +5
Amulet of Natural Armor +5 and Proof Against Poison and Mighty Fists +1
Ring of Freedom of Movement
Horseshoes of Speed
Strongarm Bracers
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
Clear Ioun Stone
Pale Green Ioun Stone
Stone of Good Luck
4x Silversheen
614 GP


Breath Weapon: 1/day, 6d8 30 ft. cone of fire, DC 21 Reflex save for half
Massive Swing: as a standard action, the War Hulk may attack all targets within reach
Medium Load: 9,648
Heavy Load: 19,296

Strengths: non-magical flight, high speed, can attack as a standard action, with FoM and Aporter armor he’s tough to lock down, great saves, lots of immunities, decent HP, great damage, threatens both 5 feet and 10 feet away

Weaknesses: merely decent touch AC, concealment

It’s no caster killer for sure, after all it still falls prey to the standard quickened true strike -> ranged touch attacks, but at least it stands a decent chance at contributing in and surviving high level combat. I’d throw it up against anything in the MM with reasonable confidence as long as there was even a half-way decent party around for support.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

There are no centaurs in my game. I like to run a naturalistic sort of game - yeah, yeah a freakin' wizard did it, whatever - I just can't stand them.
Can you imagine what they're skeleton looks like? How did they evolve? What other hextapedal life forms are there, aside from the four-legged winged creatures? :smalltongue:
It's become a running joke in my circle of players - so I define centaurs as a humanoid with a deformed conjoined twin, dragged around behind them like an awkward hairy afterthought.

Anyway, if you have to use centaurs of legend, they need barding, and there are rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorForUnusualCreatures).

[Ravens_cry]

That makes me wonder; what would the insides of a centaur look like? Would it have multiple, redundant sets of organs? A horse heart and a human heart, and four lungs, and enough intestine for two beings, etc.?
That's what my d20 modern character wanted to do, dissections. We fought giant spiders, He wanted to know how they were able to breath, let alone stand. Good thing we never met a centaur, or the knives would have certainly come out. Unfortunatly, as they are fictional creatures, there is no right answer, only plausible ones. Alas, I do not posses the skills to create a one, a plausible answer that is. Still, it is fun to ask these questions, even though they have no answer.

[Dr.Epic]

Haha wow, I never actually wondered about that.

On one hand, the horse part constitutes the major volume of your body, but on the other hand, your vitals are all situated on the humanoid part.

Personally I'd rule for the latter, but RAW says Large armor.


Perhaps you should divide the price of Medium armor by 2, and add that to 3/4 the price of a barding.

Here's a better question: can a centaur be it's own holy mount?

Also yeah I think you'd have to get special armor made.

[BenTheJester]

That makes me wonder; what would the insides of a centaur look like? Would it have multiple, redundant sets of organs? A horse heart and a human heart, and four lungs, and enough intestine for two beings, etc.?

I always figured the horse half was pure muscle(and bones, etc), while the humanoid part contained all the organs

[Ravens_cry]

I always figured the horse half was pure muscle(and bones, etc), while the humanoid part contained all the organs
Would humanoid sized lungs and hearts be able to cope with that large of a body would be my response to that theory.

[NeoVid]

I believe there was a guide to centaurs for D&D 3 that covered all these questions.

[Serpentine]

On one hand, the horse part constitutes the major volume of your body, but on the other hand, your vitals are all situated on the humanoid part.That doesn't seem right to me. I mean, at the very least, there'd be an awful lot of intestine in that horse part. I would suppose... Well, it'd need an extra-large heart. At least the size of a horse's, probably at least a bit more. Also fairly large lungs - so that's pretty much all of the chest taken up, right there. I'd imagine the liver would be reasonably big. Probably wouldn't have a caecum, or not much more than a human - they're omnivorous, right? They would have to eat more than a human, so probably a reasonably sized stomach, as well as the aforementioned intestinal tract. What other organs are there? And then there's the matter of The Bits. Classically, there were two different types of (male) centaur: one with horse-Bits, between the back legs, and the other with person-Bits, at the front. Where that is could make a big difference to their physiology, especially that of females.
I'm sure I've seen an anatomy of centaurs before... brb.

edit: Oh hells fricking yeah. (http://www.improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume12/v12i5/centaur-12-5.pdf) Bam.

Regarding the hextapedal nature of centaurs, a hypothetical hypothesis: centaurs, dragons, pegasi and other hextapedal creatures are a class of their own. Though I'm not sure about that... They're definitely Vertebrates, but all known vertebrates descended from the same basically-quadrapedal ancestor, and the ancestor of the hextapods would have to have happened before then. But, perhaps it's best that they remain part of Subphylum Vertebrata, with the assumption that in fantasy worlds Vertebrata is polyphyletic...
So, while they resemble, or are analogous to, mammals or reptiles, they in fact have an entirely different phylogenetic history, to form, lets say, Class Hexartusia.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Regarding the hextapedal nature of centaurs, a hypothetical hypothesis: centaurs, dragons, pegasi and other hextapedal creatures are a class of their own. Though I'm not sure about that... They're definitely Vertebrates, but all known vertebrates descended from the same basically-quadrapedal ancestor, and the ancestor of the hextapods would have to have happened before then. But, perhaps it's best that they remain part of Subphylum Vertebrata, with the assumption that in fantasy worlds Vertebrata is polyphyletic...
So, while they resemble, or are analogous to, mammals or reptiles, they in fact have an entirely different phylogenetic history, to form, lets say, Class Hexartusia.
See now that's my point entirely: if there's a new class that all the hextapeds belong to, it feels wrong to think that they'll include animals that look just like two other quadrapedal vertebrates stuck together.

I just find I'm more comfortable with the messed up species in the game being aberrations - foul mutant spawn of malice seems more likely than a divergent convergent evolution.

[Thrawn183]

I'm curious, what's your take on pagasi, noble flying steed or creepy abomination?

[bosssmiley]

edit: Oh hells fricking yeah. (http://www.improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume12/v12i5/centaur-12-5.pdf) Bam.

Excellent find, oh friendly neighbourhood naga girl! Goes along with what C.S.Lewis says in "The Last Battle" (Narnia, book 7) about centaurs always being late for morning appointment because they have to eat two separate breakfasts...


I'm curious, what's your take on pegasi, noble flying steed or creepy abomination?

"Everyone always wants to talk about my brother..."
- Chrysaor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysaor)

I never went for the whole "Medusa's blood in the sea foam" thing, slightly freudian overtones. I much prefer the theory that pegasi are the natural end result of cutesy Valentine's card bait:

"Pony LOEV birdy, and birdy LOEV pony too"

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/photos/53/53/535304_2a735ecf.jpg

[kamikasei]

Having played a succubus paladin and researched the rules, in general, barring race-specific restrictions, a creature can fly regardless of the weight-class of the armor. The creature just can't be loaded beyond MEDIUM load.

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly):

A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load. (Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.)

RotD seems to be making up its own extra rules on the matter.

[Gnaeus]

Figured this deserved its own post. For everyone interested in how the final build turned out, meet Helicadon:

Nice. I have built and played similar builds, although never at 20.

It needs pounce, or a chronocharm, or travel devotion, or anything else to give him ability to full attack opponents more than 15 feet away.

[Thrawn183]

Well, it can massive swing as a standard action, so it can fly up to a 120 feet and then attack everyone within reach once.

Yes, this means it still can't move and full round attack a single opponent, but for that you can just sub out the level of fighter for one of barbarian, which also grants you rage and such.

Improved Speed can be dropped if you feel like it because the speed of the character is already so high. This would allow for things like short haft (so all those attacks can be on the same adjacent target!) extra rage if you were going barbarian, or really anything you wanted I guess.

[Fhaolan]

See now that's my point entirely: if there's a new class that all the hextapeds belong to, it feels wrong to think that they'll include animals that look just like two other quadrapedal vertebrates stuck together.

Which unfortunately eliminates gryphons, hippogryffs, sphinxes, manticores, and to a lesser extent pegasi.

In my campaign these creatures are all releated, and when added to the dragons, basilisks, centauroids, and others, are called 'Dracoforms'. Their appearance is slightly altered from what people expect, though. Gryphons, hippogryffs, and pegasi are all as closely related to each other as woodpeckers, crows, and robins are to each other. Sphinxes and manticores are related to them in the same way emus and rheas are related to flighted birds, to take the bird analogy further. All the 'hooves' on pegasi and hippogryffs look more cloven rather than horse-like to be a little closer to dragon-like feet, the beaks of the appropriate creatures are all like the beaks on several dinosaurs rather than bird-beaks. The manes and 'hair' are a down-like substance. Not really feathers but the same stuff that the oriental dragons tend to have.

Centaurs, hybsils, and lamias are from similar stock. Cloven hooves, down-like hair, etc. They're all decended from the Dracotaurs, along with Wemics which are a bit closer to the 'original' than Centaurs.

The base concept is that at some point in a therapsid ancestor (likely a dinocephalia) there was a genetic glitch that caused a hexapedal mutation, an aberation that passed on the mutation and developed a new class of vertebrate. These survived along with their close cousins, the mammals, when all the other synapsids died out. All hexapodal creatures belong to the Dracoform group, which is very prone to further mutation (aberrations) and magical abilities.

[Thrawn183]

What's wrong with just assuming that random creatures mate and make a hybrid?

[dyslexicfaser]

That doesn't seem right to me. I mean, at the very least, there'd be an awful lot of intestine in that horse part. I would suppose... Well, it'd need an extra-large heart. At least the size of a horse's, probably at least a bit more. Also fairly large lungs - so that's pretty much all of the chest taken up, right there. I'd imagine the liver would be reasonably big. Probably wouldn't have a caecum, or not much more than a human - they're omnivorous, right? They would have to eat more than a human, so probably a reasonably sized stomach, as well as the aforementioned intestinal tract. What other organs are there? And then there's the matter of The Bits. Classically, there were two different types of (male) centaur: one with horse-Bits, between the back legs, and the other with person-Bits, at the front. Where that is could make a big difference to their physiology, especially that of females.
I'm sure I've seen an anatomy of centaurs before... brb.

edit: Oh hells fricking yeah. (http://www.improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume12/v12i5/centaur-12-5.pdf) Bam.

Regarding the hextapedal nature of centaurs, a hypothetical hypothesis: centaurs, dragons, pegasi and other hextapedal creatures are a class of their own. Though I'm not sure about that... They're definitely Vertebrates, but all known vertebrates descended from the same basically-quadrapedal ancestor, and the ancestor of the hextapods would have to have happened before then. But, perhaps it's best that they remain part of Subphylum Vertebrata, with the assumption that in fantasy worlds Vertebrata is polyphyletic...
So, while they resemble, or are analogous to, mammals or reptiles, they in fact have an entirely different phylogenetic history, to form, lets say, Class Hexartusia.

Caecum is the stomach pouch thing with the bacteria inside, right? For digesting grass?


What's wrong with just assuming that random creatures mate and make a hybrid?

Evolution does not work that way!

Except sometimes it does, I guess. Ligers and mules and such.

[JaronK]

In D&D, evolution works that way. Or the gods just decide to make stuff. Actually, D&D is a creationist world, and shows what the world would look like if gods just made stuff (many duplicated ideas on otherwise unrelated creatures, for example). In D&D, some god just said "you know what would be cool? A horse man."

JaronK

[Serpentine]

Which unfortunately eliminates gryphons, hippogryffs, sphinxes, manticores, and to a lesser extent pegasi.

In my campaign these creatures are all releated, and when added to the dragons, basilisks, centauroids, and others, are called 'Dracoforms'. Their appearance is slightly altered from what people expect, though. Gryphons, hippogryffs, and pegasi are all as closely related to each other as woodpeckers, crows, and robins are to each other. Sphinxes and manticores are related to them in the same way emus and rheas are related to flighted birds, to take the bird analogy further. All the 'hooves' on pegasi and hippogryffs look more cloven rather than horse-like to be a little closer to dragon-like feet, the beaks of the appropriate creatures are all like the beaks on several dinosaurs rather than bird-beaks. The manes and 'hair' are a down-like substance. Not really feathers but the same stuff that the oriental dragons tend to have.

Centaurs, hybsils, and lamias are from similar stock. Cloven hooves, down-like hair, etc. They're all decended from the Dracotaurs, along with Wemics which are a bit closer to the 'original' than Centaurs.

The base concept is that at some point in a therapsid ancestor (likely a dinocephalia) there was a genetic glitch that caused a hexapedal mutation, an aberation that passed on the mutation and developed a new class of vertebrate. These survived along with their close cousins, the mammals, when all the other synapsids died out. All hexapodal creatures belong to the Dracoform group, which is very prone to further mutation (aberrations) and magical abilities.This whole thing appeals to me on several levels. After all, just because someone describes something as "like a bird" doesn't mean it's literally a bit of a bird.
Caecum is the stomach pouch thing with the bacteria inside, right? For digesting grass?Yep. Same thing as our appendix.

Jaron: That works too.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

In your usual D&D game, sure it's normal to assume that magic makes evolution not work anything like how Darwin suggested.

Me, I just prefer to run games without the cross-class hybrid species. I get plenty of mileage out of aberrations and the like. When I do use the magical hybrid creatures of Mesopotamian and Greek myth, they're re-classed as outsiders.
I like to keep the Prime Material relatively mundane (within the bounds of there being spellcasters and so on).