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Ozreth
2010-01-22, 02:40 PM
Anybody have an idea of how I could implement some sort of train system into a fantasy setting? Would steam be weird? Maybe Kobold slaves cylcing some sort cart system.....I dunno.

Serenity
2010-01-22, 02:42 PM
See the Eberron Campaign Setting; the Lightning Rail is the most prominent example in current D&D.

Ravens_cry
2010-01-22, 03:01 PM
I would make it an ordinary steam train, but with a fire elemental as the energy source. And make them chatty, like Calcifer from Howls Moving Castle, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howl%27s_Moving_Castle_(film))argumentative and curmudgeonly with the trains driver. That's what I would do any way.

Another_Poet
2010-01-22, 03:05 PM
Iron Kingdoms campaign setting has mundane steam engines, which manage to mesh well with an otherwise very 1500's-esque "full metal fantasy" setting. Two of the five major nations have very extensive rail systems that are crucial to their military.

Alejandro
2010-01-22, 03:08 PM
You don't even need to burn coal or generate steam. Have some wizards create a stone or metal golem that is a large gear, and hook it into an engine-like vehicle. The golem obeys the engineer, who can tell it to turn at various speeds, or stop, or reverse. Then, it's just a matter of mechanics to hook the endless source of energy to the rest of the engine.

ericgrau
2010-01-22, 03:11 PM
There's gotta be some way to do this, but FWIW 1 fire elemental isn't hot enough. Even a large fire elemental is only twice alchemist's fire.

Maybe you could figure out a way to get a longer duration on animate objects or create a very expensive custom magic item. Assuming they run most of the time in a clear, straight path, they could move 240 feet per round which is 27 mph.

1 or more strong golems or pack animals turning a crank or pushing a giant wheel could work. The speed of the train would be equal to the lifting speed of the golem (its height per round) times the maximum weight it can lift divided by the weight of the train and again divided by the coefficient of friction of the wheels. About 0.10 is reasonable for the friction coefficient, and dividing by 0.10 is the same as multiplying by 10. But initial acceleration would be extremely low unless you installed a super complicated transmission to shift gears.

EDIT: A 29 strength stone golem might move a 4200 lbs. car (including 2000 lbs. of golem) at a rate of 10 ft. * 1400 lbs. / 4200 lbs. * 10 ~= 30 feet per round. Not very impressive.

Evard
2010-01-22, 03:17 PM
For inside a city...Set up a pulley like system and have slaves/workers (lots) pull the carts back and forth. The carts could hold 50 - 100 people depending on how many are pulling the ropes, if the Egyptians could move huge a%% boulders then this should be simple.

[]-------{}------[]

the boxes on the ends are where the slaves/workers will be pulling from and the thing in the middle is the cart. Inside the boxes is also where the pulley systems are located to make it easier to pull the cart.
This can lead to a few things like the PC's must free a slave from working there or they have to protect the railway or even the PC's could work at the railway for some extra money
And yes the cart is on railroad tracks :P. I would think the cart would look something like a trolley but made of light wood.

Ravens_cry
2010-01-22, 03:23 PM
For inside a city...Set up a pulley like system and have slaves/workers (lots) pull the carts back and forth. The carts could hold 50 - 100 people depending on how many are pulling the ropes, if the Egyptians could move huge a%% boulders then this should be simple.

[]-------{}------[]

the boxes on the ends are where the slaves/workers will be pulling from and the thing in the middle is the cart. Inside the boxes is also where the pulley systems are located to make it easier to pull the cart.
This can lead to a few things like the PC's must free a slave from working there or they have to protect the railway or even the PC's could work at the railway for some extra money
And yes the cart is on railroad tracks :P. I would think the cart would look something like a trolley but made of light wood.
Use undead. Everything is better with masses of Zombie/Skeleton workers.

Mando Knight
2010-01-22, 03:28 PM
Use undead. Everything is better with masses of Zombie/Skeleton workers.

The overlord might be damned to the Abyss for all eternity, but at least he made the trains run on time. :smallwink:

ericgrau
2010-01-22, 03:30 PM
Well they're a lot lighter than golems, and maybe enough of them could get the same 1400 lbs. lifting capacity without weighing 2000 lbs themselves. That'd boost the above train speed to something more reasonable. EDIT: Nope, assuming 12 strength and 10 of them to equal the golem, they weigh about 1500 lbs. together. Train still moves at 30 feet a round, or up to 90 if we can somehow make it very light and without any cargo.

Ravens_cry
2010-01-22, 03:38 PM
The overlord might be damned to the Abyss for all eternity, but at least he made the trains run on time. :smallwink:
Yep. Or use those who die of old age. They can't be raised anyway, and it's an excellent way to pay off old debts without leaving them to your descendants. Think of it as a final service to the community. I admit the sight of a rotting old gaffer or granny in a treadwheel may disturb some, so I recommend skeletons. Also, they are faster. Get a few of the more pragmatic churches on your side, and you have a mass power system that hurts no one, and pollutes nothing. It would be a new age of production and prosperity, with products and services once exclusive to the rich now available to almost all. It would be glorious!
Make sure you find a way to synthesize black onyx though, or there's going to be massive shortages.

subject42
2010-01-22, 03:39 PM
There's gotta be some way to do this, but FWIW 1 fire elemental isn't hot enough. Even a large fire elemental is only twice alchemist's fire.

It only needs to get it hot enough to make the water boil.

That being said, if you need hotter, why not a bound demon with access to hellfire?

Ozreth
2010-01-22, 03:55 PM
I want to have something that a lowly group of thieves would have trouble getting onto and/or paying for, something a little more extravagant and upper class. I think Ill use a train with a golem working the gears, good idea. Thanks!

Radar
2010-01-22, 04:07 PM
I want to have something that a lowly group of thieves would have trouble getting onto and/or paying for, something a little more extravagant and upper class. I think Ill use a train with a golem working the gears, good idea. Thanks!
Build Maglev via permanent Reverse Gravity and a pack of Air Elementals or something like that to pull the thing. :smallbiggrin:

Alejandro
2010-01-22, 04:15 PM
I want to have something that a lowly group of thieves would have trouble getting onto and/or paying for, something a little more extravagant and upper class. I think Ill use a train with a golem working the gears, good idea. Thanks!

It's going to have to have significant power, though, to go at any rate of speed. Someone else posted the calculations.

I have used a similar concept for a steamboat. Golems turning the paddlewheels.

SilveryCord
2010-01-22, 04:23 PM
Trains aren't *that* complicated to build, and in a world filled with blacksmiths and magicians, surely a simplistic train system doesn't break verisimilitude. Wagonways (tracks that wagons pulled by animals followed) were around before Jesus's time, and steam powered trains were first built in 1784. Surely you can just say "a wizard did it"

Justin B.
2010-01-22, 04:41 PM
Each conductor of the train must have ranks in UMD to activate the wand of levitating. Because the caster level of the wand must be so high, there are only a few wizards out there who can make it, or whatever. UMD is specialized training, which might be expensive.

Either way, the car is tethered to a metal tube, with a turbine inside, which is attached to a track. Inside the metal tube it a permancied spell Cyclonic Blast, from the spell compendium. This spell creates a sideways tornado, which spins the turbine, pulling air through, and generating thrust. speed is controlled by a variable shutter on the front and back of the turbine.

Depending on the magic level of your world, this could be a very expensive system to run, so there's your social limiting factor. Only the wealthy can fford to pay the high prices that the operators charge for training and maintaining such extravagant magic!

Ravens_cry
2010-01-22, 05:19 PM
It's going to have to have significant power, though, to go at any rate of speed. Someone else posted the calculations.

I have used a similar concept for a steamboat. Golems turning the paddlewheels.
That was actually done (http://www.nasw.org/users/sperkins/hrsferry.html), with horses rather then golems, but same difference.

Kzickas
2010-01-22, 05:25 PM
The overlord might be damned to the Abyss for all eternity, but at least he made the trains run on time. :smallwink:

The one big advantage to combining trains with fantasy settings is that when you have stuff like liquid pain you can probably get time in some physical form with the right tools, then you can make the trains literally run on time

Ravens_cry
2010-01-22, 05:28 PM
The one big advantage to combining trains with fantasy settings is that when you have stuff like liquid pain you can probably get time in some physical form with the right tools, then you can make the trains literally run on time
With rather more drastic repercussions when you run OUT of time, I would imagine.

Grumman
2010-01-22, 06:10 PM
It costs 16,660 gp to hire someone to animate a Gargantuan object that can hustle 100 feet per round (~11 MPH) continuously without tiring. It can carry 2,800 pounds of cargo or (using the rules from the Arms and Equipment Guide) 11,200 pounds of carriages and cargo, without losing speed.

Moglorosh
2010-01-22, 06:24 PM
This has been bugging me for a while, and I guess this is a good a thread as any to ask this question: Why do people look for rules, costs, etc when creating their campaign worlds? If I want to have a train powered by a fire elemental, then my train is powered by a fire elemental. If a golem turns a crank and pulls a freight train across countries, then that's what happens. Why are we getting hung up on how much one golem could technically carry, or how hot a fire elemental burns? Why do we care how much gold a rail system would cost?

I could understand if we were talking about the PC's wanting to build one of their own or something, but the DM designing the campaign? Why does it matter?

Edit: I feel as though I should clarify that this is in fact a serious question and in no way should be construed as anything mean-spirited or otherwise.

Ozreth
2010-01-22, 06:33 PM
Im not too concerned with costs and numbers and all that to run the train. Ill charge the players to ride, other than that we are assuming its all being taken care of by the city. This place is huge and will be the only place the NPCs are in for awhile, got too much to worry about already on top of the upkeep of a functioning trian ha. I just want the look and feel of it to be believable is all.

Ozreth
2010-01-22, 06:41 PM
This has been bugging me for a while, and I guess this is a good a thread as any to ask this question: Why do people look for rules, costs, etc when creating their campaign worlds? If I want to have a train powered by a fire elemental, then my train is powered by a fire elemental. If a golem turns a crank and pulls a freight train across countries, then that's what happens. Why are we getting hung up on how much one golem could technically carry, or how hot a fire elemental burns? Why do we care how much gold a rail system would cost?

I could understand if we were talking about the PC's wanting to build one of their own or something, but the DM designing the campaign? Why does it matter?

Edit: I feel as though I should clarify that this is in fact a serious question and in no way should be construed as anything mean-spirited or otherwise.

I agree whole heartedly. I was really just trying to think of a genre of train/transportation and means of powering it that would fit a generic fantasy settling. Could care less about number crunching heh. Although I appreciate all of the help.

Ellisande
2010-01-22, 07:14 PM
This has been bugging me for a while, and I guess this is a good a thread as any to ask this question: Why do people look for rules, costs, etc when creating their campaign worlds? If I want to have a train powered by a fire elemental, then my train is powered by a fire elemental. ...

I could understand if we were talking about the PC's wanting to build one of their own or something, but the DM designing the campaign? Why does it matter?

I don't look at the listed costs in the book, nor do I do intensive number-crunching to make it work, but it matters because I expect my world to hang together coherently.
In the example given, a world with cheap enough access to fire elementals would have them not only pulling trains, but powering factories and tractors. On the other hand, if it's ridiculously expensive, there won't be a train system at all, at least not as more than toys for billionaires with more money than sense. And either one of these possibilities has a thousand effects on and implications about the rest of society as well.

(In practice, though, I usually do it backwards from this; I decide on the key things that I want in the world, and determine prices and everything else from there... and that's my advice for Ozreth--do you want a pseudo-technological Elemental Train? A slave-drawn tram? Levitating magical carpets? A technological monstrosity of some sort? What best fits the flavour of your city/setting?)

Ozreth
2010-01-22, 07:31 PM
(In practice, though, I usually do it backwards from this; I decide on the key things that I want in the world, and determine prices and everything else from there... and that's my advice for Ozreth--do you want a pseudo-technological Elemental Train? A slave-drawn tram? Levitating magical carpets? A technological monstrosity of some sort? What best fits the flavour of your city/setting?)

Hmm, its a port city, in the flavor of Luskan from FR.

AslanCross
2010-01-22, 07:38 PM
Eberron's lightning rail system is suspended and guided by a series of electric repulsion stones. It's propelled by a bound air elemental producing thrust.

Frozen_Feet
2010-01-22, 07:45 PM
The whole thing makes me think about Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks. You can use the awesome piece of fluff that the rail network is the binding shackles of an ancient demon king.

ericgrau
2010-01-22, 08:13 PM
It only needs to get it hot enough to make the water boil.
... only if you want no pressure at all from the steam, which is fairly useless. Like a pressure cooker the boiling temperature goes up when you apply pressure. Higher pressure means you need a higher temperature.

I'm thinking that putting together some trick to pull this off is both inaccurate and irrelevant. If you're the DM, simply declare the train to exist. The only matter is figuring out a fair price. Maybe a continuous "magic item" of animate objects, 11x6x2000x4=528,000 gp which animates as many cars as the spell would animate. Dang, that ain't cheap. But maybe still reasonable for a kingdom to own one, or a party of 20th level adventurers to split.


This has been bugging me for a while, and I guess this is a good a thread as any to ask this question: Why do people look for rules, costs, etc when creating their campaign worlds?.
Because then every PC with a summon spell or planar binding or w/e will own a 528,000 gp train once you explain things this way. It works great if you want to make your own rules and say elementals are rare creatures and no you can't have one. But once you start messing with a system that already has rules for these things you're opening the door either for abuse or for implausibility ("You can't summon a fire elemental for your own train because I said so!").

Moglorosh
2010-01-23, 11:45 AM
Because then every PC with a summon spell or planar binding or w/e will own a 528,000 gp train once you explain things this way. It works great if you want to make your own rules and say elementals are rare creatures and no you can't have one. But once you start messing with a system that already has rules for these things you're opening the door either for abuse or for implausibility ("You can't summon a fire elemental for your own train because I said so!").It would be more like "every PC with a summon spell, the engineering expertise necessary, and materials needed" will own a train. Preventing that is as simple as not allowing them access to the blueprints.

Evard
2010-01-23, 11:57 AM
Use undead. Everything is better with masses of Zombie/Skeleton workers.

Hmmm that would make a good movie... a company in a middle ages like city has the first rail way (that is secretly ran by zombies). The zombies get out and the town goes into panic! In comes the heroes to save the day ;3 Ok so it really was the heroes that set the zombies free so they could save the town and get mucho hero points for it but oh well....

I could see this used more as a punishment than a actual workforce.

onthetown
2010-01-23, 12:04 PM
My DM and I were just talking about this yesterday for my own campaign.
Fire elementals + water elementals = steam power. I'm a huge fan of trains.

If you still want it to be a fantasy setting... just make it that only one person's discovered the way to combine the two, and they're trying to keep it a huge secret because of the profits. Anybody that tries to find it out is mysteriously assassinated?

Alternatively, yeah. Eberron. I'm not a huge fan of it, but the lightning rail's got the right idea.

Drascin
2010-01-23, 12:08 PM
It would be more like "every PC with a summon spell, the engineering expertise necessary, and materials needed" will own a train. Preventing that is as simple as not allowing them access to the blueprints.

You are trying to deny access to blueprints to a group of opportunistic and highly poweful brigands who might have access to abilities ranging from superhuman stealth to reading people's minds to seeing the history of things with a touch (being a Seer is so fun). That may prove trickier than expected without simply resorting to DM fiat :smalltongue:.

Of course, if you play it right, then you get a nice adventure out of the PCs wanting to become railroad tycoons.

bosssmiley
2010-01-23, 01:54 PM
This has been bugging me for a while, and I guess this is a good a thread as any to ask this question: Why do people look for rules, costs, etc when creating their campaign worlds? If I want to have a train powered by a fire elemental, then my train is powered by a fire elemental. If a golem turns a crank and pulls a freight train across countries, then that's what happens. Why are we getting hung up on how much one golem could technically carry, or how hot a fire elemental burns? Why do we care how much gold a rail system would cost?

I could understand if we were talking about the PC's wanting to build one of their own or something, but the DM designing the campaign? Why does it matter?

Edit: I feel as though I should clarify that this is in fact a serious question and in no way should be construed as anything mean-spirited or otherwise.

RPG players are (largely) nerds. And nerds love to systematise things (http://www.randsinrepose.com/archives/2007/11/11/the_nerd_handbook.html), mainly because they see the world as an ultimately knowable system. As China Mieville once commented, monster bestiaries from Pliny through the medieval era, and on to RPGs, are an attempt to systematise the fantastic.

Train in a fantasy setting? Tekumel did this in the 70s. The Book of Wondrous Invention did it in the 80s. Eberron? Now novel. :smallamused:

Ravens_cry
2010-01-23, 03:05 PM
Hmmm that would make a good movie... a company in a middle ages like city has the first rail way (that is secretly ran by zombies). The zombies get out and the town goes into panic! In comes the heroes to save the day ;3 Ok so it really was the heroes that set the zombies free so they could save the town and get mucho hero points for it but oh well....

I could see this used more as a punishment than a actual workforce.
D&D zombies are not self spreading. Positive energy traps at the gates between city districts would suffice.
Plus this would mean cheap healing for all. A health care system AND pest control.
I hardly see this as a punishment, you're dead, why would you care? Unless your culture has a huge ' must be laid down for eternal rest' shtick, that is.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-01-23, 03:32 PM
Unless the punishment is more like an attachment to the death penalty.

Zen Master
2010-01-23, 04:19 PM
Because then every PC with a summon spell or planar binding or w/e will own a 528,000 gp train once you explain things this way. It works great if you want to make your own rules and say elementals are rare creatures and no you can't have one. But once you start messing with a system that already has rules for these things you're opening the door either for abuse or for implausibility ("You can't summon a fire elemental for your own train because I said so!").

DM: Well - the guy who built that train there [point] has all the proper skill ranks, an int score higher than yours, and spent 15 years coming up with the idea, building, testing and refining.

Of course you can do that too. I'll take your character sheet. Roll up a new guy to play for the next 15-20 years, while your current character becomes an engineer and industrialist.

Player: Um, yea - about that: Never mind.

It's really not difficult. In shadowrun, which I've played a lot, players often look at price charts, and try convincing me they can install wired reflexes on themselves, in their bathrooms. Yea - sure. You bled to death, then died from infection, then from hunger as you lay helpless for weeks after the operation you performed on yourself under full sedation.

Beorn080
2010-01-23, 04:30 PM
Decanter of endless water plus flaming longswords. Would work like a nuclear plant, except in reverse, add more swords to increase power. Could use some sort of Wall of Force to contain all the pressure.

Demons_eye
2010-01-23, 04:38 PM
You don't even need to burn coal or generate steam. Have some wizards create a stone or metal golem that is a large gear, and hook it into an engine-like vehicle. The golem obeys the engineer, who can tell it to turn at various speeds, or stop, or reverse. Then, it's just a matter of mechanics to hook the endless source of energy to the rest of the engine.

You gave me an idea for a golem train that acts like a transformer.

Ravens_cry
2010-01-23, 04:40 PM
Unless the punishment is more like an attachment to the death penalty. No reason a good bone structure should go to waste, but people dying of natural means would be equally suitable. Some people will their body to science, or sign up to donate organs, here people will their body to the state. Like I said, for practical and aesthetic reasons, dry bones would better due to greater speed and less smell then zombies.

Devils_Advocate
2010-01-23, 07:39 PM
This has been bugging me for a while, and I guess this is a good a thread as any to ask this question: Why do people look for rules, costs, etc when creating their campaign worlds? If I want to have a train powered by a fire elemental, then my train is powered by a fire elemental. If a golem turns a crank and pulls a freight train across countries, then that's what happens. Why are we getting hung up on how much one golem could technically carry, or how hot a fire elemental burns? Why do we care how much gold a rail system would cost?

I could understand if we were talking about the PC's wanting to build one of their own or something, but the DM designing the campaign? Why does it matter?

Edit: I feel as though I should clarify that this is in fact a serious question and in no way should be construed as anything mean-spirited or otherwise.
I once saw the film Space Truckers described as "take-your-brain-out science fiction", which struck me as a succinct description of a common overarching trend in fiction. The TV series "Red Dwarf" is another example of take-your-brain-out sci-fi. This isn't limited to one genre, either. A lot of soap operas, based on my limited understanding, work like this. "Xena: Warrior Princess" definitely worked like this.

The point is, there are works of fiction meant to be passively absorbed, whereas others are intended to be analyzed. Mysteries, for example, are usually written with the understanding that at least some of the audience will think about stuff and try to figure out just what the heck is going on.

A lot of geeks really love fiction where leaving your brain in is fully expected or indeed almost mandatory. It's not surprising that a lot would want this from RPGs. A major part of a game's appeal, then, is being able to put yourself into your character's proverbial shoes and perceive and understand the world from his perspective, and then using this "immersion", this playing the character's role if you will, to relate to the game world in a satisfying fashion: gaining knowledge, solving problems, and so on. But that's not even possible in a gameworld that only makes sense from a Doylist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WatsonianVersusDoylist) perspective. With those, metagaming is one's only recourse, as in-character problem-solving is simply out of the question.

Comedy games are a specific exception, since those are supposed to be absurd, not realistic. They're generally not meant to be taken seriously. But even then, if you can make things realistically absurd, that's much more impressive than relying on nonsense.