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Mark Hall
2010-01-23, 04:53 PM
Would other class build options be reasonable as a paragon tier feat? For example, would a feat be sufficient cost for a Ruthless Ruffian to also be a Brutal Scoundrel? Or a Taclord to also be Resourceful?

Asbestos
2010-01-23, 05:42 PM
Would these stack? Cause that might be ridiculous.

BS+RR=2x Str modifier damage when Sneak Attacking with a Rattling power.

The Warlord stuff stacking would make paragon action points even more absurd.

Nightson
2010-01-23, 05:51 PM
In line with other feats, I don't think so. But it won't unbalance the combat.

Swordgleam
2010-01-23, 05:58 PM
The class options aren't all balanced against each other (they are as a whole, but not individually), so I think you have to do it on a case by case basis.

mathewt
2010-01-23, 06:42 PM
In lots of cases it'd probably in line. After all, Twofold Pact and Second Implement are paragon feats that essentially giving warlocks and wizards another class feature as another option.

If you want to be careful, say that you can't apply both Ruthless Ruffian and Brutal Scoundrel on the same attack (which is what Twofold Pact does...can't get the pact boons at the same time)

Deepblue706
2010-01-23, 06:59 PM
This may take some compromise. Perhaps the feat could grant the PC in question to use powers as if they had both class features, but they don't receive any further benefits? For instance, a Ruthless Ruffian who grabs Brutal Scoundrel can get the bonuses for powers associated with the Brutal Scoundrel, but doesn't get the bonus Sneak Attack dice. Taclords could get the full use of Resourceful powers, etc, but they just have the Tactical Presence feature.

Hal
2010-01-23, 07:02 PM
Seems like that would favor some classes over others. Clerics, for example, have no class features to choose from (short of picking Alchemist or Ritual Caster). I suppose you could let them take a Channel Divinity feat from more than one deity, but Cleric players aren't exactly clamoring for that.

Deepblue706
2010-01-23, 07:03 PM
Yeah, well, Clerics can suck it.

greenknight
2010-01-23, 07:09 PM
If you are going to do this, limit the benefit of the feat so that it works in a similar way to multiclass feats - ie, you can use it once per day, or maybe once per encounter.

Shardan
2010-01-23, 07:13 PM
It really does need to be on a class by class basis. some are more powerful than others.

DabblerWizard
2010-01-23, 07:24 PM
How about the Eladrin class feature that says a 4 hour meditation is equal to a 6 hour extended rest?

Talk about an awesome feat.

Deepblue706
2010-01-23, 07:30 PM
That'd be racial.

Reluctance
2010-01-23, 08:24 PM
The dual-feature feats all strike me as things that can't stack with each other. I wouldn't at all mind a feat that let a warlord decide on a round-by-round basis whether he was a taclord or a bravelord, but I'd balk at one that let him do both at the same time. (For playability, I'd allow him to freely use power improvements for either options, but somebody spending an action point would have to decide which one bonus effect they wanted.)

So as a rule, look at what would happen if the character could only be one or the other at a time, but not both. Brutal Scoundrel/Artful Dodger rogue (where the bonuses come into play in different circumstances) wouldn't trip any alarms. Brutal Scoundrel/Ruthless Ruffian (whose only point is to stack the STR bonus) would.

TheOOB
2010-01-23, 10:10 PM
I would make separate feats for each class feature, in the vein of twofold pact and second implement. Some class features are too powerful, and some would need rules clarification on how they interact with other class features.

Kurald Galain
2010-01-24, 02:02 PM
Would other class build options be reasonable as a paragon tier feat? For example, would a feat be sufficient cost for a Ruthless Ruffian to also be a Brutal Scoundrel? Or a Taclord to also be Resourceful?
Generally, yes, they would be reasonable - but it would in many cases make your build dependent on three ability scores rather than two. That's not in and of itself problematic, but e.g. most taclords do not invest much in charisma, so by the time they reach paragon they'd not have enough charisma to make a reslord feat worthwhile.

To prevent silly things stacking, you might want to rule that if two class features trigger on the same event (e.g. warlord stuff on action point expenditure) then the character picks either but not both. Note that ruffian/scoundrel stacking wouldn't be overly problematic, on the grounds that nearly all rattling powers are mediocre choices.

(edit)
How about the Eladrin class feature that says a 4 hour meditation is equal to a 6 hour extended rest?
That would be fitting for a heroic feat, and would be on the low end of the power scale of such feats.