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xPANCAKEx
2010-01-25, 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by Syka
Well...After the confession thread, I saw way too many "what do I do in this situation" threads popping up, so here is one nice compendium. Come here to post questions about how to approach the opposite sex, the dread first date and, should you be in a relationship already and fairly certain they don't read Giant, a place to complain/seek advice about a current flame.
...
The biggest bit of advice I've seen bandied around is the truest- no matter what else is true about the situation, always be yourself. It's no good to act like someone else, because eventually the true you will come out and the other person will not be happy you hid that from them.

Rules Of Relationships:
#1- Communicate. If you can't talk with your partner, it's probably not going to work.

#2- Be yourself. Admittedly, if you have some really bad habits you should probably try to change them, but be honest about who you are. No one wants to find out they were loving a lie, and no one likes to live a lie (...well, normally).

#3- Accept your partner. In mine, and other people's, experience you have to be able to accept your partner as they are, because they probably won't be able to change. Also, don't change drastically for someone. I've tried it, my friends have tried it, it doesn't work and it doesn't end pretty.

#4- Hints. Do. Not. Work. Or they might, but the chance of that happening is limited. Some people are like me and just utterly oblivious unless it is blatantly stated, others are (also like me) and don't want to assume, and yet others don't care. You won't know which they belong to unless you actually spell out your intentions and/or feelings. I would consider this a corrolery to Rule #1 except that it comes up so often. Do NOT assume someone should know something from hints. Hints, by nature, are subtle. Clue Bats/Crow Bars/Mack Trucks are not. Try hitting them with one of those. ;) (No, not literally. I mean be upfront if you are trying to get someone to know something.)

RULES. YOU READ THESE.
-Anything of a sexual nature, please PM to either myself or one of the regular advice givers. If you just want general opinions post something like: "I have this problem, but it is not board appropriate. Could one of you guys PM me?" I know from experience that you will in fact get help.

-KEEP IT NICE. Disagreements are bound to happen, but please don't be rude.

-Joking is all fun and games, within reasons. Please do not get derogatory.

I decided to put this up because, evidently, it was not apparent that these should be followed. I do not want this thread to be scrubbed again, and we were blessed to get it back.

so please - play nice, and if you're not comfortable talking about things over the open board, PM one of the regulars (too many to mention), and im sure they'll be willing to lend an ear - or if you're not sure who to PM, post asking for someone to PM you, and you'll soon get a response

previous thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128611)

there have been a few other rules suggested in the course of the threads. Anyone with any suggestions for rules 5, 6, 7 etc just post em up, and if the consensus is they're solid points, i'll edit them into this list so they get carried over to future threads

Syka
2010-01-25, 01:01 PM
...I think we need to revise the opening post, lol. It's been 3 years since RWA started, and I don't think it's gotten any significant overhaul since then.

It certaintly outlived the confession thread, that's for sure. :smallwink:


Omg I can't believe this is the 10th incarnation...

CoffeeIncluded
2010-01-25, 01:03 PM
...Uhm...Since it was at the end of a thread, should I repost my problem or not? (I don't want to seem like an attention whore or anything.)

Quincunx
2010-01-25, 01:06 PM
#5: Don't be That Guy (http://www.xkcd.org/513/) (or That Girl). If you don't actually speak love to the person whom you say you love, you should reconsider if you have any claim upon their love. It's disrespectful to build a fantasy life around someone who knows nothing of it, and disrespectful to shove them head-first into that fantasy instead of getting to know them, and what they really want, better.

(Methinks I botched the second sentence of that--it headed a page late-ish in RW&A IX and was better-phrased there.)

Umael
2010-01-25, 05:24 PM
...Uhm...Since it was at the end of a thread, should I repost my problem or not? (I don't want to seem like an attention whore or anything.)

No, a simple post that linked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128611&page=49) to your aforementioned problem would probably do just fine.

As to your situation, the answer's been said before. Take it slow, be careful, but just spend some time together.

Good luck.

Koury
2010-01-25, 08:43 PM
Plain White T's - Hate (I Really Don't Like You)

You were everything I wanted.
You were everything a girl could be.
Then you left me brokenhearted,
Now you don't mean a thing to me.
All I wanted was your
Love, love, love, love, love, love.

Hate is a strong word,
But I really, really, really don't like you.
Now that it's over
I don't even know what I liked about you.
Brought you around,
And you just brought me down.
Hate is a strong word,
But I really, really, really don't like you.

I really don't like you...

Thought that everything was perfect,
Isn't that how it's supposed to be?
Thought you thought that I was worth it,
Now I think a little differently.
All I wanted was your
Love, love, love, love, love, love.

Hate is a strong word,
but i really, really, really don't like you.
Now that it's over
I don't even know what I liked about you.
Brought you around,
And you just brought me down.
Hate is a strong word,
But I really, really, really dont like you

Now that it's over,
You can't hurt me.
Now that it's over,
You can't bring me down.

All I wanted was your
Love, love, love, love, love, love.

Hate is a strong word,
But I really, really, really don't like you.
Now that it's over
I don't even know what I liked about you.
Brought you around,
And you just brought me down.
Hate is a strong word,
But I
Really
Really
Really dont like you

Ignore me for the most part. I sing. Its something I do.

Not well, but when has that ever mattered?

Syka
2010-01-26, 02:22 PM
So...I found out last night my mom has a date! :smallbiggrin:

Well, she actually may have two dates (with different guys), but only one is confirmed. This is Big News. She hasn't dated in years and years. The last guy I remember was when I was, like, 13 or something. It's not for a lack of male interest- there's been plenty of that- she wasn't interested, though. Between raising two young girls and going to school and then dealing with hurricanes and car accidents and all, the last decade has been quite tumultuous and not quite right for 'dating'.

I'm just super excited because SHE'S excited. Keep your fingers crossed that, even if this ain't it, that she has a good time with dating in general. :smallsmile:

Aedilred
2010-01-26, 04:50 PM
Good for your mum. Hope all turns out well for her (and you).

Also, a little late, but thanks to everyone who offered advice on my predicament in the last thread. The problem isn't solved, obviously (since it's not really in my power to affect), but I feel more confident about my position in the whole mess. I just have to hope that they can both be grown-ups about it now, really.

Zeb The Troll
2010-01-27, 01:01 AM
@Syka - Hooray for mum! *crosses fingers for*

Shadowbane
2010-01-27, 01:28 AM
Will be thinking of your mum tonight, Syka.

Koury
2010-01-27, 01:34 AM
I...

You...

You know what, never mind. :smallamused:

loopy
2010-01-27, 02:07 AM
I...

You...

You know what, never mind. :smallamused:

My thoughts exactly. :smalltongue:

sudonym13
2010-01-27, 05:03 AM
Long time lurker first time caller. So here is my story I suck at talking to women, like really suck at it. I have almost no confidence and always assume they are not interested in me. Mentally I know that it's illogical to assume that all girls are not interested in me but I just do.

I'm 19 years old and I haven't so much as kissed a girl. I was a bit of a loser in school more the fade into the background kind then the picked on kind but still squarely in the loser category. I moved around a lot and I didn't have an abundance of friends so I didn't have much confidence.

I remember a few times in 7th or 8th grade that some girls told me that a friend of theirs had a crush on me. At the time I assumed they were being mean and making fun of me and this slightly nerdy friend of theirs by getting me to think she had a crush on me. Looking back on it it's most likely that was true seeing as I was chubby and had a bad haircut, but a small part of me wonders if she might have really had a crush on me.

She had a lot of friends and was cute but in a nerdy bookish way. So it isn't completely out of the realm of possibility that she had a crush on me.

So I am wondering if it would be totally weird of me to look her up on facebook 6 years later and ask if she really had a crush on me or if her friends were making fun of her.

Serpentine
2010-01-27, 05:19 AM
Quit talking to women like you're talking to women, start talking to women like you're talking to people.

Also, looking her up and striking up a conversation is fine. Maybe wait for a conversation or two before bringing the crush rumour up, though, unless it naturally comes up in conversation, in which case it's fine.

sudonym13
2010-01-27, 05:28 AM
I can talk to them but only as a friend. It just wont click in my brain that they would be interested in me so I never make a move and I end up being an acquaintance or if I'm lucky a friend. I know it's crazy but it's just how my brain works. A girl would practically have to jump on me for me to assume otherwise and somehow that has never happened.

Coidzor
2010-01-27, 05:40 AM
Well, you're not supposed to know that they're interested in you before you make your move. That's part of why it's called making a move rather than falling into bed with one another.

It identifies whether they're interested at all and whether they're keen on plumbing the depths of their interest.

Umael
2010-01-27, 12:10 PM
I recommend concentrating on improving your self-confidence, even if that means you have to work to improve yourself in order to give yourself self-confidence. Overweight? Make a goal to lose 10 pounds in 10 weeks through diet and exercise. Think there is nothing interesting you can do? Pick a skill, an art, a hobby, something you will enjoy and can tell people about it - then work on it.

Too shy? Make a point of making friendly as you pass by with strangers. Start by always smiling, or always saying hello. Give a cheerful comment or a quick compliment to someone. If the idea of talking to strangers freaks you out, talk to people you know that way.

You might be surprised how far a sunny smile and a "you look nice today" might go towards making someone else feel good - and usually making someone else feel good makes the original person feel good too, and that creates confidence.

Cultivate yourself into someone you want to be, someone you think will be interesting and engaging to be around.

Believe me, this goes a long way towards making yourself available and attractive and willing to ask a girl out - and believing that you have a good chance she'll say yes.

Aedilred
2010-01-27, 12:13 PM
sudonym: It sounds like you're very similar to how I was at your age around girls. If you don't have that confidence it can be very difficult; I sympathise.

Quit talking to women like you're talking to women, start talking to women like you're talking to people.
This is pretty good advice, as it helps to overcome the embarrassment factor. If you're after a serious relationship, there's no real point in "acting up" to try to impress girls anyway, as they'll soon discover the truth. I will add a word of caution, though- I tried a similar approach and it worked very well for forming platonic relationships with girls, but only later did I discover that my manner led them to believe I wasn't interested in them romantically. Not being very good at flirting and the like, and because I was making such an effort to treat them as ordinary people, as I might any of my other friends, I obviously wasn't giving off the right signals.

In this case, though, there's no reason why you can't have your cake and eat it. Carry on with the advice as above, just make sure that if you do find someone in whom you're interested and you get on with, you actually ask them out. The signals can be hard to read, but by no means assume they're not interested unless it's really obvious- they're going out of their way to avoid you, they already have a boyfriend, etc.. After all, they may be just as shy as you are, or think that you're not interested. Unless you get lucky and a mutual friend decides to take matters into his own hands (this happened to me) then one of you is eventually going to have to make their intentions plain if anything's going to go anywhere- and it's usually the guy who's expected to do so, sorry.

In all honesty, though, it's not something that can be taught, it's something that has to be learned by everybody individually through many cases of heartache and rejection... It's worth it in the end, though, I promise, and once you have the confidence that success brings, you'll find it a lot easier in future, too.

xPANCAKEx
2010-01-27, 12:39 PM
sudonym13

the lovely serp had it right on talk to them like people

interest, be it sexual or romantic, or both - definately both for a healthy relationship - do not change a girl whos a friend into this terrorfying being who will crush your spirit*... but it does open up the potential to make them an awesome friend. And thats all a relationship is. An awesome friendship. And i do mean "awesome" in the proper usage of the word.

so take it down off the pedistal you've put it on. Sure theres risk involved, and you may get a few feelings hurt along the way** but thats part of it. With the risk comes the potential for great reward.

I think Umael offered some good points. You won't accept the possibility of other people liking you until you like yourself. While theres nothing wrong with being shy if theres other things you dislike about the way you look, then change them. Its as simple as that. Im not saying its easy, but it is simple.

*sometimes this does happen - but you survive. Sometimes it takes a while to deal with it, but you do survive, and eventually meet someone new and rad along the way. So never give up.
**see point *. Its not always that bad. 'Getting hurt' can range from mild annoyance, to having to entirely rebuild your ego. But putting yourself on the line when the other person is worth the risk makes a relationship so much more rewarding.

as for the girl/facebook stalking.... i'd let the past be the past on that one. Trying to dredge up old memories from a girl you knew 6 years ago (which i take it you don't still have any contact with), in the vague hope that she once had a crush on you will probably do more harm than good to be honest. You can't be too caught up on all that baggage, else you'll never move onto new and exciting things.

The Duke
2010-01-27, 12:47 PM
Long time lurker first time caller. So here is my story I suck at talking to women, like really suck at it. I have almost no confidence and always assume they are not interested in me. Mentally I know that it's illogical to assume that all girls are not interested in me but I just do.
.

Note: short little story before advice is handed out.

You seem I myself was/is in a similar situation, not so much the talking, but anything even remotely romantic, flirting etc. However I've found that it doesn't hurt to practice, particularly when there is no real stress, so what I do is I'll flirt with some of my male friends most of them assume I'm just joking around. So there is very little actual pressure and you get around the whole having trouble talking to girls trouble until you've built up some confidence. When you feel ready then you can approach the situation with more confidence. Well, it might not work quite the same way for you, as some people I imagine would find it even harder to flirt with another guy. But hey if you think it'll help might be worth a shot.
:smallcool:

Disclaimer: of course this all depends on the general atmosphere of the people around you, if they are extremely homophobic I would suggest avoiding such an approach. However if you ham it up a little with funny voices etc. People are more likely to know that your are joking.

Of course my experience may be different from yours as most of the people I hang out with do drama, or musical theatre.

EDIT: Given what you've said in your post I'm not going to assume you have trouble speaking with them so much. As you have said you just assume they aren't attracted to you. However if you actually have trouble speaking to them without worrying about attraction and romance I'd say serpentine has it dead on.

Quincunx
2010-01-27, 01:41 PM
sudonym: That regret of not knowing, that desire to do anything to ameliorate the uncertainty, has eaten into you for years? Good. This means you will do anything to avoid inflicting similar years of pain onto the one you love, even at the cost of frying yourself in the nine hells by suggesting dating to her (subject to #4, "Hints. Do. Not. Work.", above).

The Duke: While that sounded fairly friggin' bizarre on the first reading, with more passes I think you've stumbled onto another way out of the comfort zone there. Well done!

Castaras
2010-01-27, 03:08 PM
"Hints. Do. Not. Work."


This. At least, it certainly does with me and other girls I know. You have to hit some girls with a brick or more to get them to notice that you fancy them. :smalltongue:

Umael
2010-01-27, 03:15 PM
This. At least, it certainly does with me and other girls I know. You have to hit some girls with a brick or more to get them to notice that you fancy them. :smalltongue:

Why just say this about girls? Guys are probably worse.

Castaras
2010-01-27, 03:19 PM
Why just say this about girls? Guys are probably worse.

Seeing as I do not have the prerequisite parts to be a guy, I can't give much of an opinion on Guys. :smallwink:

Pyrian
2010-01-27, 03:22 PM
I've had hints work, both to and from me. :smallconfused: 'Course, they were not, by and large, subtle by any stretch of the imagination but the point usually got across. Different people are different, though. I've also seen people wade through extremely thick hints with near-total obliviousness. :smalltongue:

Umael
2010-01-27, 04:00 PM
Seeing as I do not have the prerequisite parts to be a guy, I can't give much of an opinion on Guys. :smallwink:

You've never observed the oblivious nature that is the Y-chromosome? You've never heard another girl rant about how that guy "totally wasn't picking up the hints"? You've never asked a guy, point-blank, if he was being deliberately obtuse?

Then again, from my viewpoint, I find that the differences between men and women are much smaller than they appear. What's true for women is often just as true for men.

Castaras
2010-01-27, 05:12 PM
You've never observed the oblivious nature that is the Y-chromosome? You've never heard another girl rant about how that guy "totally wasn't picking up the hints"? You've never asked a guy, point-blank, if he was being deliberately obtuse?

Then again, from my viewpoint, I find that the differences between men and women are much smaller than they appear. What's true for women is often just as true for men.

Nope, Yep (only a few days ago though... mate has a real creep fancying her who just won't leave her alone despite the fact she's said "No, I don't like you."), nope.

Second part is indeed true. :smallsmile: But so often people assume girls can always pick up hints. It's less hassle and pain to just go up to a girl and say "I like you. Wanna @!%£?" rather than trying to use hints. :smallwink:

CoffeeIncluded
2010-01-27, 05:15 PM
You've never observed the oblivious nature that is the Y-chromosome? You've never heard another girl rant about how that guy "totally wasn't picking up the hints"? You've never asked a guy, point-blank, if he was being deliberately obtuse?

The funny thing about that is that the guy to whom I just confessed my feelings towards had suspected this for some time.

Me on the other hand...Let's just say I'm bad with social situations.

Koury
2010-01-27, 05:16 PM
And I assume that "@!%£" means "date"?

After all, its against forum rules to use symbols to cover curse words.

Umael
2010-01-27, 05:56 PM
Nope, Yep (only a few days ago though... mate has a real creep fancying her who just won't leave her alone despite the fact she's said "No, I don't like you."), nope.

Two negatives, one (recently) positive?
:smallconfused:



Second part is indeed true. :smallsmile: But so often people assume girls can always pick up hints. It's less hassle and pain to just go up to a girl and say "I like you. Wanna @!%£?" rather than trying to use hints. :smallwink:

...very true.

And I'm shutting up 'lest I get in trouble.

loopy
2010-01-27, 07:11 PM
And I assume that "@!%£" means "date"?

After all, its against forum rules to use symbols to cover curse words.

It is? ****aki mushrooms, I've broken that rule a couple times. :smalleek:

Koury
2010-01-27, 07:23 PM
Actually maybe not... I think I'm combining these two in my head:


Circumventing the Board filters
If a poster attempts to circumvent the board's language filter in order to post profane or obscene content, their post will be modified and they will be issued an Infraction. This includes masking (using non-letter characters in place of letters).


Excessive Use of Profanity
Most profanity is censored by our filter, though a few mild terms (generally those that appear in the comic) and words that have both a benign meaning and a profane or offensive one, are not. However, the excessive use of profanity, whether or not it is filtered, is not acceptable. Most words can be determined from context, and we wish to maintain a friendly and courteous environment on this forum. Please note that an occasional filtered word or use of a non-filtered word is not an offense; if, however, your ****** posts ******* regularly look like this ******* sentence, it is in violation of this rule.

*shrug* Sue me :smallbiggrin:

Pyrian
2010-01-27, 07:51 PM
It's less hassle and pain to just go up to a girl and say "I like you. Wanna @!%£?" rather than trying to use hints. :smallwink:It may be less hassle, but I can say for a fact that it's frequently more painful. :smallcool:

EDIT: Sorry, yeah, that was just a typo, even though the result was... Interesting!

Coidzor
2010-01-27, 08:04 PM
Er... Is that an "It" with the t left off accidentally, or...? :smalleek:

skywalker
2010-01-28, 12:38 AM
Well, you're not supposed to know that they're interested in you before you make your move. That's part of why it's called making a move rather than falling into bed with one another.

I like the "falling into bed with one another" part too, tho. Those relationships are really fun, less work to be sure.


Why just say this about girls? Guys are probably worse.

Would say that guys, given their predilection for this sort of thing, are more likely to be on the lookout for hints. Especially since in today's world, we have so much cultural pressure on guys that they're bad at taking hints, that a guy can be sitting there going "is that a hint? I don't know. Maybe it is? Better not risk it, tho..."


It may be less hassle, but I can say for a fact that it's frequently more painful. :smallcool:

I saw a guy at a bar once. He was dancing with a girl, and I saw him whisper something in his ear. She slapped him and walked off. He came over to the bar, I said "looks like you could use a drink," and ordered him one. Then I asked "What did you say to her, anyway?" "Oh, I asked her if she wanted to go back to my place and *****." I said "What?! I bet you get slapped a lot!" He said "Yeah, but I get a lotta tail, too."

It's a good joke. It's not a true story, but the moral is sound. Sometimes, it's better to just be forward.

xPANCAKEx
2010-01-28, 12:44 AM
the whole "hints" thing is rubbish - as a feminist, i redicule all my female friends who complain about boys not taking hints. You've right fought for and gained gender equality, now stop being wimps and put it to use. Im not saying all women are indirect, but from my own experiance, the vast majority are

men seem to be far more direct, and unsubtle usually. Well, unless you've learnt to play the same game a lot of girls have for most of our teen/young adult lives. Then it gets interesting...

Coidzor
2010-01-28, 12:48 AM
Not living in town (and being without wheels) can sometimes be a bit of a drag for picking up people purposes.

*le sigh*

Hmm. If someone has confided in one's self about an awkward situation, that generally means it's ok to give some basic advice if they've presented a front such that they're unsure about the situation as it stands, ya?

Syka
2010-01-28, 12:52 AM
As a girl, I hate hints. I don't get them. Ever. I also abhor games.

Everyone else has it pretty well covered.

The Duke
2010-01-28, 01:23 AM
He he, really I adore mind games, especially when playing them on other people. Hints are just another form of mind games.

Mind you I also rarely act on hints, preferring not to trust that that's what there intention is.

*I is weird.. :smallamused:

Dragonrider
2010-01-28, 10:09 AM
He he, really I adore mind games, especially when playing them on other people. Hints are just another form of mind games.

So you wanna play mind games? That's fine . . . go ahead . . . LALALA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU.


...Ye gods, I'm turning into my father! :smalleek: A song for every occasion!

AtomicKitKat
2010-01-28, 10:24 AM
I can talk to them but only as a friend. It just wont click in my brain that they would be interested in me so I never make a move and I end up being an acquaintance or if I'm lucky a friend. I know it's crazy but it's just how my brain works. A girl would practically have to jump on me for me to assume otherwise and somehow that has never happened.

Could be worse, you could be thinking everyone's got to be somewhat interested(problem I, and apparently, some others, have). Agree on the "make yourself talk to others". Part of the reason I picked retail(and come the end of this month, will have been in it for 2 years now), was to force myself to speak to strangers, even if it's nothing more than "Do you need any assistance?".

Umael
2010-01-28, 11:45 AM
Part of the reason I picked retail(and come the end of this month, will have been in it for 2 years now), was to force myself to speak to strangers, even if it's nothing more than "Do you need any assistance?".

...I would have never considered that as a reason for that particular career path.

I'm not sure whether to be respectfully mildly impressed with you while keeping my distance, or simply label you as fascinatingly broken and derranged in an artistic way that denies ever getting you fixed.

Coidzor
2010-01-28, 12:24 PM
So you wanna play mind games? That's fine . . . go ahead . . . LALALA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU.


...Ye gods, I'm turning into my father! :smalleek: A song for every occasion!

Or just a Jedi. (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/238426) :smalltongue:

Dragonrider
2010-01-28, 12:56 PM
Or just a Jedi. (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/238426) :smalltongue:

Or the Barenaked Ladies. :smalltongue: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl6fZdvAXS8)

(I was gonna just link to the line I referenced, but BNL is too funny live to skip the beginning.)

Lioness
2010-01-28, 02:40 PM
A slight breakthrough with the thing with dad: We're going to try to make it so I only have to go there once a month.

His home environment is not a happy-study one.

snoopy13a
2010-01-28, 03:02 PM
the whole "hints" thing is rubbish - as a feminist, i redicule all my female friends who complain about boys not taking hints. You've right fought for and gained gender equality, now stop being wimps and put it to use. Im not saying all women are indirect, but from my own experiance, the vast majority are

men seem to be far more direct, and unsubtle usually. Well, unless you've learnt to play the same game a lot of girls have for most of our teen/young adult lives. Then it gets interesting...

The big part of why women use hints is that they want the man to make the first move. There's a couple of good reasons for this:
1) It shields the woman from being rejected if she directly asks the person
2) It screens out men who don't have the courage to ask her out

This can backfire when the man doesn't pick up the hints (which happens quite a bit). Of course, the man may pick up the hint and not make the move because he simply isn't interested.

xPANCAKEx
2010-01-28, 03:32 PM
The big part of why women use hints is that they want the man to make the first move. There's a couple of good reasons for this:
1) It shields the woman from being rejected if she directly asks the person
2) It screens out men who don't have the courage to ask her out

This can backfire when the man doesn't pick up the hints (which happens quite a bit). Of course, the man may pick up the hint and not make the move because he simply isn't interested.

they're hardly "good" reasons - infact, the hypocrisy of point 2 should be clear to all. And the risk of rejection is part of the 'dating game' - if you don't take the risk then you'll never be in a relationship

Umael
2010-01-28, 03:33 PM
The big part of why women use hints is that they want the man to make the first move. There's a couple of good reasons for this:
1) It shields the woman from being rejected if she directly asks the person
2) It screens out men who don't have the courage to ask her out

This can backfire when the man doesn't pick up the hints (which happens quite a bit). Of course, the man may pick up the hint and not make the move because he simply isn't interested.

Doesn't mean that the woman is right to use hints though. A lot of guys appreciate confident women, and a woman who hints because she is afraid of rejection doesn't scream "confident".

As for screening out men, that's probably more wrong because it sets up a perception that woman are either the arbitrators of who is worthy or as objects to be prized and pursued - neither of which are complimentary (the former insults men, the later, women).

Koury
2010-01-28, 06:53 PM
More emo-ness, mostly meant to be ignored.

The Postal Service - The District Sleeps Alone Tonight

Smeared black ink...
Your palms are sweaty
And I'm barely listening to last demands
I'm staring at the asphalt wondering what's buried underneath
Where I am

I'll wear my badge...
A vinyl sticker with big block letters adherent to my chest
That tells your new friends I am a visitor here...
I am not permanent
And the only thing keeping me dry is
Where I am

You seem so out of context in this gaudy apartment complex
A stranger with your door key explaining that I am just visiting
And I am finally seeing
Why I was the one worth leaving

D.C. sleeps alone tonight

The district sleeps alone tonight after the bars turn out their lights
And send the autos swerving into the loneliest evening
And I am finally seeing
Why I was the one worth leaving

Forever Curious
2010-01-28, 07:54 PM
More emo-ness, mostly meant to be ignored.

The Postal Service - The District Sleeps Alone Tonight

Smeared black ink...
Your palms are sweaty
And I'm barely listening to last demands
I'm staring at the asphalt wondering what's buried underneath
Where I am

I'll wear my badge...
A vinyl sticker with big block letters adherent to my chest
That tells your new friends I am a visitor here...
I am not permanent
And the only thing keeping me dry is
Where I am

You seem so out of context in this gaudy apartment complex
A stranger with your door key explaining that I am just visiting
And I am finally seeing
Why I was the one worth leaving

D.C. sleeps alone tonight

The district sleeps alone tonight after the bars turn out their lights
And send the autos swerving into the loneliest evening
And I am finally seeing
Why I was the one worth leaving

Someone needs a hug. *hugs*

xPANCAKEx
2010-01-28, 09:32 PM
More emo-ness, mostly meant to be ignored.

The Postal Service - The District Sleeps Alone Tonight

Smeared black ink...
Your palms are sweaty
And I'm barely listening to last demands
I'm staring at the asphalt wondering what's buried underneath
Where I am

I'll wear my badge...
A vinyl sticker with big block letters adherent to my chest
That tells your new friends I am a visitor here...
I am not permanent
And the only thing keeping me dry is
Where I am

You seem so out of context in this gaudy apartment complex
A stranger with your door key explaining that I am just visiting
And I am finally seeing
Why I was the one worth leaving

D.C. sleeps alone tonight

The district sleeps alone tonight after the bars turn out their lights
And send the autos swerving into the loneliest evening
And I am finally seeing
Why I was the one worth leaving

captain obvious would like to point out that posting lyrics and feeling sorry for yourself isn't going to add anything positive to your life

Shadowbane
2010-01-28, 09:36 PM
Have to agree...have you tried listening to anything positive? Or pming someone about your problems? I'm sure many of us would be happy to listen, and you've got me all concerned now too.

loopy
2010-01-28, 09:37 PM
More emo-ness, mostly meant to be ignored.

I would like to add that:

1) If its meant to be ignored, why post it?
2) If you are feeling emo/depressed, or whatever, head to the Depression thread. They are good people, and will help you out. This thread is for constructive advice to help people who want to work on relating with others. If that is you, awesome, but feeling sorry for yourself will get you nowhere (unless you are a member of a chart-topping emo band).

Koury
2010-01-28, 09:41 PM
captain obvious would like to point out that posting lyrics and feeling sorry for yourself isn't going to add anything positive to your life

That made me laugh. Its not particularly funny, but I laughed anyway :smallsmile:

And I could pretend that I shared a good song that most people probably don't know. Thats always good. Not the reason I posted it (damn you knowing that you're better off not hanging around me!), but still.

Where are all the pretty, smart girls who lack enough self-confidence to hang out with me?:smallyuk:

xPANCAKEx
2010-01-28, 09:49 PM
That made me laugh. Its not particularly funny, but I laughed anyway :smallsmile:

And I could pretend that I shared a good song that most people probably don't know. Thats always good. Not the reason I posted it (damn you knowing that you're better off not hanging around me!), but still.

Where are all the pretty, smart girls who lack enough self-confidence to hang out with me?:smallyuk:

im gunna be honest, and about as a subtle as a sledge hammer here as you've not listened to a lot of what people have said previously

your current self loathing is gunna put pretty much EVERYONE of wanting to hang out with you, let alone romantically Its no fun being in the company of someone who hates themselves.

Sort yourself out. Do all those things you feel need to be done. Sorting out your diet (don't complain you're unhealthy when you go through 6 litres of mountain dew - that just a no brainer). Get a job - even a part time shift would be a start.

you've complained about all these things, yet when people have directed you a decent course of action you've pissed and moaned.

If you really hate being unhappy this much, then its time to start changing that.

Then you can worry about the romance.

Serpentine
2010-01-28, 10:51 PM
Right, that does it. Koury, look at my sig-link, the "Guide to Self-Image" (I should probably go through and edit that some more sometime...). Then, get on with it.
There is only so much we can do for you, and I think it's pretty much all been done. You want to make yourself a better person? Then do it already. You. Not us. You're the only one who can do it. So get off your arse, decide what sort of a person you want to be, and start working on it, because we can't do it for you, and you're not going to make a good boyfriend until you at least start on this task. Stop making excuses. That's all I've seen in your responses to people's advice: excuses, excuses, excuses. Stop being lazy. You don't even have to actually do anything to get started, just work on the way you think. MOVE, SON!
The only thing left that we could do is smack you across the back of your head, and I can't afford the plane ticket.

Pyrian
2010-01-28, 11:00 PM
:smallbiggrin: "No one can solve problems for someone whose problem is that they don't want problems solved." - One

Force
2010-01-28, 11:12 PM
Forgive me for dogpiling, but I do have to say this.

You have a dream of a life together with someone, which to me indicates a long-term relationship. The female members of this thread will have to confirm this, but my guess is that the average girl isn't interested in building a relationship with someone who can't be bothered to at least make an effort to improve his own lot in life and is dragging around a lot of baggage from a previous relationship. So you had problems with a previous relationship. That means you either seek counseling, or you suck up 'n deal with it, because if you really want to make that dream reality, you can't let your problems drag you down.

Wasn't it you that said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result? In this case, you're doing the same thing over and over-- sitting in your sister's house and posting things about how bad your life is on the internet-- and expecting that things will magically get better.

Nothing is free in this world; even the laws of physics (thermodynamics) state this. Get out there, find a job, drag yourself up and make yourself desirable and I think you will eventually find your dream, even if you end up modifying it in the process.

If all the relationships you want involve you getting laid for the night, feel free to continue as you are. If you want something from life beyond that, though, I suggest you work for it.

Koury
2010-01-28, 11:52 PM
:smallconfused: I... All I did was post some lyrics and write two sentences complaining about a girl I've really liked for a while not liking me. What did I say to bring the whole thread out in force?


im gunna be honest, and about as a subtle as a sledge hammer here as you've not listened to a lot of what people have said previously

your current self loathing is gunna put pretty much EVERYONE of wanting to hang out with you, let alone romantically Its no fun being in the company of someone who hates themselves.

Sort yourself out. Do all those things you feel need to be done. Sorting out your diet (don't complain you're unhealthy when you go through 6 litres of mountain dew - that just a no brainer). Get a job - even a part time shift would be a start.

you've complained about all these things, yet when people have directed you a decent course of action you've pissed and moaned.

If you really hate being unhappy this much, then its time to start changing that.

Then you can worry about the romance.

My dislike of myself doesn't come into play really when I'm talking to people. I do not sit in a corner and cry and cut myself while hanging out with other people.

As for actually doing stuff, I went and asked one of my old managers if they were hiring. They weren't. This is just one thing, but its more then I've done in like 9 months.

Also, I don't really recall pissing and moaning about anything in particular *cue links to me pissing and moaning*

As for my diet, today I've eaten some chicken and drank some milk.

And drank about a liter of soda. But only 1! And the chicken had a lot of mayo and ranch. And the milk was chocolate...


Right, that does it. Koury, look at my sig-link, the "Guide to Self-Image" (I should probably go through and edit that some more sometime...). Then, get on with it.
There is only so much we can do for you, and I think it's pretty much all been done. You want to make yourself a better person? Then do it already. You. Not us. You're the only one who can do it. So get off your arse, decide what sort of a person you want to be, and start working on it, because we can't do it for you, and you're not going to make a good boyfriend until you at least start on this task. Stop making excuses. That's all I've seen in your responses to people's advice: excuses, excuses, excuses. Stop being lazy. You don't even have to actually do anything to get started, just work on the way you think. MOVE, SON!
The only thing left that we could do is smack you across the back of your head, and I can't afford the plane ticket.

Self help. Right. Lets see here.

1) Person X always fails at whatever they do.
2) Person X wants to fix this.
3) Person X tries to fix it.
4) See step 1.

Yeah, I can't see the way to fix it either.

Mind you, I appreciate the effort, and I'll read through it for no other reason then I'm just sitting here and it can't hurt.


"No one can solve problems for someone whose problem is that they don't want problems solved." - One

Thats the 2nd time you've used that quote at me. If I didn't want to be fixed why would I be here? Despite how it may seem, I am not here to frustrate any of you.

No, I most certainly want my problems solved. I just believe it to be a long-shot at ever happening. There is a difference.


Forgive me for dogpiling, but I do have to say this.

You have a dream of a life together with someone, which to me indicates a long-term relationship. The female members of this thread will have to confirm this, but my guess is that the average girl isn't interested in building a relationship with someone who can't be bothered to at least make an effort to improve his own lot in life and is dragging around a lot of baggage from a previous relationship. So you had problems with a previous relationship. That means you either seek counseling, or you suck up 'n deal with it, because if you really want to make that dream reality, you can't let your problems drag you down.

Wasn't it you that said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result? In this case, you're doing the same thing over and over-- sitting in your sister's house and posting things about how bad your life is on the internet-- and expecting that things will magically get better.

Nothing is free in this world; even the laws of physics (thermodynamics) state this. Get out there, find a job, drag yourself up and make yourself desirable and I think you will eventually find your dream, even if you end up modifying it in the process.

If all the relationships you want involve you getting laid for the night, feel free to continue as you are. If you want something from life beyond that, though, I suggest you work for it.

Like I said before, I don't really let on that I'm 'dragging around baggage.' Not even in some conscious effort to deceive or anything. I'm generally fine when I'm around others. Its just when I have nothing to do for days at a time and no one is making any effort to contact me and ignoring any of my efforts to hang out with them that it kicks in.

As for the whole paragraph I bolded in the quote, I'm sitting in my sisters house, yes, but I haven't really posted about 'my life being bad' for a while. I've posted lyrics to two songs and wrote two sentences relating a general disappointment over someone I like not liking me.

Oh, and a half-joke about wanting someone with low enough self-esteem to hang out with me.

And I'm most certainly not expecting things to magically get better. At least, not until I learn 1st level spells IRL. I'm looking at you, Charm Person.

Side note: I CAN cast a level 0 spell. I just need the material component. (Caltrops :P)

I'm gonna assume that that 'just get laid' part was a general comment, because I remember posting nothing to that effect.

xPANCAKEx
2010-01-29, 12:10 AM
once again, excuse excuse excuse

you whinge and whinge and whinge on here. And here we are, all offering you guidance on how to resolve the things you whinge about, and your response is entirely defeatest.

all this


1) Person X always fails at whatever they do.
2) Person X wants to fix this.
3) Person X tries to fix it.
4) See step 1.


Such utter defeatest nonsense

If you really believe this then why are you even here? If you don't believe it, then stop posting things like it

your attitude stinks. Its gotta change.

edit: and you said before was what you really needed was someone to come give you a kick up the behind. Rather than arguing with the people who are trying to help you, however much it tries their patience to do so, why not take stock of the advice - and you've got a whole handful of people giving you advice there. How hard are we gunna collectively have to kick you before you'll sit up and sort yourself out? Or do you just wanna piss and moan how we've got it all wrong and just wanna sulk some more?

Eventually everyone will run out patience, but that will just give you something new to complain about. IF you're not gunna listen to us, go get professional help

Syka
2010-01-29, 12:21 AM
You might think that you don't let on to it around people, but people also probably pick up on it- even on some subconcious level. From what you've shared here, I'd venture a guess that the self-defeatism spills over.

I think what irked people is that you tacked on "Where are all the pretty, smart girls who lack enough self-confidence to hang out with me?" to posting two depressing, seemingly unrelated songs. I'll also add that people who lack self-confidence generally want to be around someone who makes them feel better- ie, not someone else with confidence issues.

You really haven't done anything other than shoot down EVERYTHING we have suggested, even stuff that is easy to do. You have used logical fallicies to support your arguments. You have come asking advice and then not listened to it, on top of appearing to want sympathy for how repulsive you are.

I don't think your issue is romantic. I do feel that your issue is with the self, as in WITH yourself, and not with others. You prefaced your very first post with that you aren't depressed. This may not be the case. Even if it is the case, I think an amble over to the Depression thread may aid you.

Kudos on asking a manager about a job, but that means nothing. Nada. When I applied to where I worked now, they had literally hired someone the day before. 3 days later I got a call for an interview because the person quit after one day; I can tell you there were likely others just as qualified who'd applied, but my manager probably liked that I still applied despite the apparent non-opening. My first job I got through sheer force of will. I was told there may be a position in a couple weeks; I came back to check up, and it still wasn't open. I was told to come back in a couple weeks; I did. Still no confirmed openings. Within a week of that, I had a call for an interview and within 3 days I had the job.

You need to do more than ASK. You need to apply, you need to follow up on applications. You need to meet the managers and say "Hi, I'm Koury. I have applied for X position and I hope that I get the chance to speak with you more in depth soon."

Apply even if there are no openings, seriously. It's worth a shot and most places will keep them on file for 6+ months.

Koury
2010-01-29, 12:22 AM
Once again, excuses, excuses, excuses.

You whinge and whinge and whinge on here. And here we are, all offering you guidance on how to resolve the things you whinge about, and your response is entirely defeatist.

All this:



Such utter defeatist nonsense.

If you really believe this then why are you even here? If you don't believe it, then stop posting things like it.

Your attitude stinks. Its gotta change.

Yeah, I know my attitude sucks. I WANT it to change. Wanting it doesn't make it so. I am not simply ignoring what you all say.

As for what you quoted, guess what. I'm depressed. That kind of thought process happens. Ignoring the good things I posted and focusing on that helps what, exactly? That is similar to pointing out that your post has at least 12 errors in it, grammatically.

Temotei
2010-01-29, 12:25 AM
Its just when I have nothing to do for days at a time and no one is making any effort to contact me and ignoring any of my efforts to hang out with them that it kicks in.

This...no. Contact them if you want to hang out with someone. Don't just hope they want to. They might like relaxing on their weekends, or whatever.

I'm a notorious non-calling person. I don't call anyone (except sometimes my girlfriend). It's either texting, e-mail, or waiting until I see them in person.

Putting down Serp's self-help guide before even reading it is a bad thing, sir. I had a friend that did that with my essay in Intro to Comp. It doesn't feel good to be on the receiving end, and you probably don't feel good saying that.

Admittedly, I pounded pretty hard on Twilight vampires in the essay near the end, but she didn't finish, so she didn't read my biggest points or anything.


Yeah, I know my attitude sucks. I WANT it to change. Wanting it doesn't make it so. I am not simply ignoring what you all say.

As for what you quoted, guess what. I'm depressed. That kind of thought process happens. Ignoring the good things I posted and focusing on that helps what, exactly? That is similar to pointing out that your post has at least 12 errors in it, grammatically.

Don't resort to critiquing his post, when the purpose is to help you. I see you asking for help and attention, and you're getting both. You're accepting neither.

From what I can see, you don't want your attitude to change. Else, you wouldn't have commented before reading the self-help link, you wouldn't be putting down everything others have said, and you would be doing things that make you feel good (such as contacting friends/family and hanging out).

Koury
2010-01-29, 12:38 AM
You might think that you don't let on to it around people, but people also probably pick up on it- even on some subconcious level. From what you've shared here, I'd venture a guess that the self-defeatism spills over. Maybe. I like to think I control it though. Of course, I'd wager you're more right then I'd like.


I think what irked people is that you tacked on "Where are all the pretty, smart girls who lack enough self-confidence to hang out with me?" to posting two depressing, seemingly unrelated songs. I'll also add that people who lack self-confidence generally want to be around someone who makes them feel better- ie, not someone else with confidence issues. I didn't exactly post the songs back-to-back (though that doesn't change your point). And like I said, that was a half-joke. I wasn't serious. I know text doesn't translate meaning as well as we'd like, but still. I even made a white-text joke or two in my last post. I joke a fair amount. I understand the relationship/depression thing makes it hard to distinguish though. My fault for not being clear.


You really haven't done anything other than shoot down EVERYTHING we have suggested, even stuff that is easy to do. You have used logical fallacies to support your arguments. You have come asking advice and then not listened to it, on top of appearing to want sympathy for how repulsive you are. Now now, I'm not NOT listening to you guys. And I really don't think I've shot down EVERYTHING. I hardly think its fair to expect this to just change, however, overnight. And if there are flaws in my arguments, point them out. Most of the things I say here are things I think ALL the time. Please, show me I'm wrong. Thats what I WANT.


I don't think your issue is romantic. I do feel that your issue is with the self, as in WITH yourself, and not with others. You prefaced your very first post with that you aren't depressed. This may not be the case. Even if it is the case, I think an amble over to the Depression thread may aid you. I've posted there before. Did I actually say I wasn't depressed before? If so I lied. Most likely due to, I don't know, embarrassment or something. Couldn't really tell you.


Kudos on asking a manager about a job, but that means nothing. Nada. When I applied to where I worked now, they had literally hired someone the day before. 3 days later I got a call for an interview because the person quit after one day; I can tell you there were likely others just as qualified who'd applied, but my manager probably liked that I still applied despite the apparent non-opening. My first job I got through sheer force of will. I was told there may be a position in a couple weeks; I came back to check up, and it still wasn't open. I was told to come back in a couple weeks; I did. Still no confirmed openings. Within a week of that, I had a call for an interview and within 3 days I had the job.

You need to do more than ASK. You need to apply, you need to follow up on applications. You need to meet the managers and say "Hi, I'm Koury. I have applied for X position and I hope that I get the chance to speak with you more in depth soon."

Apply even if there are no openings, seriously. It's worth a shot and most places will keep them on file for 6+ months.

I acknowledge all this to be true. I wasn't saying I wasn't gonna go back. I was just saying that I WENT. Baby steps, right?

Syka
2010-01-29, 12:46 AM
I meant that you keep coming up with reasons to not follow the advice. We tell you ways to eat healthy? You say you want to fly under the radar and won't ask your sister if you can use something.

To exercise? You have to do it with someone else.

As for the logical fallacies...you keep stating stuff as fact that is self-deprecating while realizing that your self-perception is skewed. Yet you insist that Your View is the Right View of you. Of COURSE we can't give you concrete real life "This is why you are mistaken" reasons, because we don't know you. But we can say, "Hey, a screwed up relationship with one person doesn't mean you are forever going to have screwed up relationships." To which you retort "Oh, nay. If I couldn't make her happy whom I tried so hard to make happy, how could I ever possibly make someone else happy?"

It's the excuses and the 'proving' of stuff that you 'prove' by using your own skewed perspective. Instead of saying "You know, those are good ideas. I'll see what I can do." you say "I can't do that for X, Y, and Z reasons." This is defeatist and, by nature, contrary to wanting to change.


I may be wrong about the depression thing; I thought you'd prefaced one of your posts with it but it may have been another.

The Duke
2010-01-29, 12:49 AM
While this isn't a perfect fit to your problem if you've tried "everything" it's worth mentioning. When your having a bad day/life and you feel like you can't succeed. You can do what I like to call emotional bandaiding (my own word so spelling doesn't matter. :smallwink:) where rather then moping about or using a defeatist attitude, I simple pretend I'm having the best day in the world and everything is going right, I smile all the time say hi cheerfully to stranger and overall act the most pleasant I ever am. It's a band-aid and doesn't address the deeper problem that's what psychologists are for but it certainly does make my day a little brighter.

Koury
2010-01-29, 12:56 AM
This...no. Contact them if you want to hang out with someone. Don't just hope they want to. They might like relaxing on their weekends, or whatever.

I'm a notorious non-calling person. I don't call anyone (except sometimes my girlfriend). It's either texting, e-mail, or waiting until I see them in person. Wait, what? I do that too. You missed the last half of the sentence you quoted. I send a text or two and even come up with things to do. They'd just rather not.


Putting down Serp's self-help guide before even reading it is a bad thing, sir. I had a friend that did that with my essay in Intro to Comp. It doesn't feel good to be on the receiving end, and you probably don't feel good saying that.

Admittedly, I pounded pretty hard on Twilight vampires in the essay near the end, but she didn't finish, so she didn't read my biggest points or anything. :smallconfused: I didn't put the guide down. I said I'd read through it.


Don't resort to critiquing his post, when the purpose is to help you. I see you asking for help and attention, and you're getting both. You're accepting neither. Asking me why I'm even here didn't scream out "trying to help me."

As for not accepting the help I do get, no. Its more, having trouble accepting it. Not because its bad or wrong. But because I'm me. I'm stubborn and have been thinking this way for a long time now. I'm working on it and appreciate the effort of you guys.


From what I can see, you don't want your attitude to change. Else, you wouldn't have commented before reading the self-help link, you wouldn't be putting down everything others have said, and you would be doing things that make you feel good (such as contacting friends/family and hanging out).

I... What? I DO want it to change, I DIDN'T put Serps guide down, and I am NOT putting down everything everyone says.

I don't really understand that last part though. I don't want to be not-sad because I am trying to feel good? I don't get it.

Temotei
2010-01-29, 01:18 AM
Wait, what? I do that too. You missed the last half of the sentence you quoted. I send a text or two and even come up with things to do. They'd just rather not.

:smallconfused: I didn't put the guide down. I said I'd read through it.

Asking me why I'm even here didn't scream out "trying to help me."

As for not accepting the help I do get, no. Its more, having trouble accepting it. Not because its bad or wrong. But because I'm me. I'm stubborn and have been thinking this way for a long time now. I'm working on it and appreciate the effort of you guys.



I... What? I DO want it to change, I DIDN'T put Serps guide down, and I am NOT putting down everything everyone says.

I don't really understand that last part though. I don't want to be not-sad because I am trying to feel good? I don't get it.

You're trying to feel good? Huh.

You did put the guide down before reading it. Re-read your post--especially that part about you not being help-able. :smallannoyed:

Pancake seems annoyed because you've been putting yourself down and doing nothing to improve yourself, which Syka has been trying to help you with, and what Serp tried to help you with, etc. You can't blame someone for being annoyed with someone who complains and doesn't do anything about it other than posting on the internet about life troubles.

Don't be stubborn with help. Just let down your guard for once, and you'll actually be able to learn something, and hopefully, improve your general disposition.

In the same paragraph: "I'm working on it..."

How are you working on it? Examples are good, so we can possibly give you encouragement or give you examples of behaviors that could improve your life.

Random fact that may fit: Good posture is said to improve self-confidence.

Serpentine
2010-01-29, 02:17 AM
For the record, I'm not terribly annoyed or anything. I just figured that, at this point, what Koury needed to get going was a smack upside the head. The songs prompted it, but I was pretty much just waiting for a reason. Physical abuse not being presently feasible, an e-smack had to do. It has apparently failed.
Koury, you have discarded out of hand every suggestion as to how you could fix your situation. It's all in your hands, now. If you still want our help, then go away, assess your life, make a list of specific things you want to change and perhaps the beginnings of plans on how you could do so, then come back and give it all to us in dot-point form so we can advise you on how to approach each point. A word of warning: at this point, if you discard a piece of advice out of hand with some lame excuse, we will call you on it. If you have a legitimate reason for why a particular path is infeasable, okay, but work with us, think about ways to work around that. And, by the way, all your excuses I've seen so far are horrendously lame.
edit: I felt the need to punctuate this with examples.

Healthy = money. Me =/= money. Therefore me =/= healthy. I'm not fat (6'4 185 lbs) or diabetic (yet) or anything. I wouldn't even know where to being with eating healthy.Lame.

No one wants to play Captain Saveabro? And, you know, I tried already to do all that. I had myself a good reliable (except in summer) job. I was making 15/hr and working 50-60 hrs a week. I had a place of my own and was slowly but surely paying off my back bills. But it didn't really matter. I was still alone. I still ended up losing my place. I wasn't suddenly a better person because I had a place or a job (though, interestingly, I seem to apparently be a worse person because I DON'T have a job now). I don't know. I have no real motivation to do anything. Its dumb, and I know that. I WANT to want to do something. But that doesn't change the fact that I don't, really.Lame on multiple levels.


Yeah, basically. I try to minimize my impact around here.Lame - don't minimise your impact, make it a positive one.

Yeah, I in no way believe soda to be good for me or anything but I don't have any money really to be buying my own food anyway. I eat what is available. Currently, that means corn dogs, cereal, pb&j sandwiches and top ramen.Lame.

As for drinking water, well, I live in Tacoma, Washington. We had a smelter here for years and years and years. Long story short, it ruined our drinking water (and our soil in general). Mind you, there is no standing "Don't drink the water" orders but that stuff can't be much better for me then soda.Would be reasonable, except there are no doubt ways to get around it. Look into filters or tank water, for example.

Me saying I can not be a good boyfriend is not making someone elses decisions for them any more then the state lotto is making someones decision for them when they award them millions of dollars. Its one of those things that is just obvious.Lame.

I would go to a gym and stuff if I had someone else to go with. I'd even call em and bug em and whatnot about going when we were supposed to. I like that stuff. But just me by myself? *shrug* Not so much.Super-lame.

Now, I do do SOME stuff. My sister has two kids and works nights. I watch them often (hell, I'm watching them now, they're both asleep). Plus I keep the place decently clean. Not perfect, but meh. Trash gets taken out when its full and whatnot. Good.

Also, my sister does tend to buy pretty good stuff, its just that I try and avoid eating anything that I think might be noticed if its gone. Nobody else eats the top ramen, so I do. Nobody notices if I make a pb&j. I don't want to take out the chicken or beef or anything though because I don't know if she wants to make something specific with it or something.Lame. If nothing else, shop and cook for yourself.

I don't think we have a stroller for the 2 yr old. And besides, that kid can't sit still to save his life. As for going with my mom, well, she lives about 5 miles away which, while close, is further then I care to drive with no real reason to go. Gas is expensive. And besides that, I disagree with my mom on a lot of things politically AND its all she ever wants to talk about. If she would just stop watching Fox News...Lame. Walk there.

I actually like cooking. But so does my sister so she does it and I watch the kids while she does.Not quite lame, but there's other cooking you can do, and it seems to me that looking after the kiddilinks and pulling your weight around the house should make up for at least some decent food, and furthermore who's she cooking for? If it's the whole household, you must be eating more than ramen. If it's everyone but you, then cook your own dinners.

My issues are more along the lines of being straight-up undesirable. There is no regard in which someone is better off dating me then being alone. Thats kinda lame.Your last sentence is spot-on.

See, the problem is, when I do that, I can see the house. I can see her there and happy. But when I try and add myself in there it just becomes so ludicrous that any shred of believability it may have had is gone. Trying to imagine, seriously, that scenario is akin to trying to imagine, seriously, living underwater. I can not make someone happy. Similar to the way I can not breath underwater. It causes a huge, un-ignorable plot hole and the only way to reconcile it is to remove me from the picture.Excuses, excuses, excuses. And/or a sign that you need to go talk to a professional.

So, I CAN work. But I need... a reason to. I always had a reason before. I guess I secretly want one of you guys to come into my house, pitchfork in hand, and force me to go do something. I fear that I might not ever go and do anything if left to my own devices.Consider yourself pitchforked. Also: excuses. Most of us have to make our own motivation (to various degrees of success). You're no different.

It does seem simple. Yet somehow it didn't work out that way when I did try. Unfortunately, the main reason for that, as far as I can tell (me), hasn't changed. Whats the definition of insanity again? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results? Yeah, I'm depressed, not insane."You tried, and you failed. The moral of the story is, don't try". Are you really going to take advice from Homer Simpson? It's called practice and learning.

I think I was gonna make some point about "I had already tried, why would anything change with someone else." I forget.Neither lame nor excuses (arguably), just wrong. See above re: practice and learning.


I'm not attractive, physically.
I have nothing going for me job-wise.
I'm really picky and have no right to be.
Oh look, more problems without solutions that double as reasons to not do anything.

Go do what I wish I had the motivation to do. Go get a good job, get a place of my own and go sweep [beautiful intelligent girl] off her feet. God, I'd love to.
But I don't. It'd all be pointless. It was last time, and I had a GOOD job and a decent place. Job + home + girl + me = happy is a simple equation, on paper. It actually works out nicely until you get to the 'me' part. For whatever reason, 'me' cancels out 'happy'. Its one of those mathematical mysteries.The epitome of LAYME.

But all the things I want to do involve helping people I care about get what they want. I don't know if thats normal or weird or whatever, but its true. I have no real personal goal beyond making someone happy and enabling them to achieve what they'd like to achieve.Lame. Self-fulfillment does help others, and can involve helping others.

I just don't really think I can do that.Then you've already failed, and it's your own fault.

And as for not assuming that I am not good enough, well, its not so much that I'm assuming it as much as its a fact that I can't personally prove.Lame.

Blahdy blahdy blah. I've got to get back to work, so I'll leave the rest.
My point here is not to pick on you or anything, but to illustrate how utterly self-defeatist you are. We cannot help you so long as you have this attitude. There is exactly nothing we can say that will help, because you will just keep on coming up with reasons why we're wrong. If you really cannot fix said attitude, then you need to see a counsellor. You probably ought to, anyway.

Shadowbane
2010-01-29, 02:22 AM
Koury, I've been where you might be now. You can't seem to find a way out, because you don't feel up to doing anything. It always seems that there is something preventing you.

Maybe there is, maybe there isn't.

The thing is you, have to just try. Start with something, stick to it. The ball is in your court, and it is really up to you.

"There is no fate but what we make for ourselves."

Quincunx
2010-01-29, 02:49 AM
This'll be the fourth or fifth time my husband's tried to get me employed at his workplace. I am certain he doesn't understand (yes, I've tried) that my file goes straight into the bin every time, that they believe I'm pressuring him into doing it, or that they cannot grasp that he doesn't use his work hours to escape his wife and are not actually doing him a favor. :smalltongue: What queer and loveless lives do people lead.

RabbitHoleLost
2010-01-29, 02:51 AM
What a strange and lovely man he must be to be your husband, Quin.

Koury
2010-01-29, 03:18 AM
@Serp: :smalleek: I'm really not worth however much time it took you to go get all those examples.

I suppose it would be silly to go through those point by point (because, well, that is exactly the kind of thing you're talking about me doing), so I'll just hit on the ones that jump out at me.

About shopping and cooking for myself: I have no money. As in zero. I do not have change to dig out of my couch or a few bucks left in my bank account. I have 0. I can't shop for myself.

About walking to my moms: Heck no. I'm not spending over an hour to walk to her place and then doing the same to get home.

About who my sister cooks for: Yes, everyone but me. And I do cook my own dinners. Corndogs and top ramen.

About needing to talk to a professional: *shrug* Maybe. Funny thing about that is that by the time I was in a position to be able to do that, monetarily, I probably wouldn't need to anymore.

About needing to make my own motivation: I used to have it. Its gone now. I don't know where to even begin to try and get it back.

About having already failed and it being my fault: I know.

About most of the 'lame's: Yeah. Its lame. I get that part already. I just don't know how to fix it. Or if its even fixable. I feel like it's not. I want to be wrong.

Coidzor
2010-01-29, 03:48 AM
This'll be the fourth or fifth time my husband's tried to get me employed at his workplace. I am certain he doesn't understand (yes, I've tried) that my file goes straight into the bin every time, that they believe I'm pressuring him into doing it, or that they cannot grasp that he doesn't use his work hours to escape his wife and are not actually doing him a favor. :smalltongue: What queer and loveless lives do people lead.

Hmm. Maybe they're just worried about the state of their copiers?

Nameless Ghost
2010-01-29, 04:46 AM
I hardly expected to be posting in this thread, but apparently I am. Probably because it's not actually a relationship issue.

Koury:
I don't know the intricacies and details of your situation, so here's one question: are you okay with how things are at the moment?

Because it seems to me that the reality is that you are. You're content to leave things alone and not change them because it's easy to do so and requires absolutely nothing on your part. And if one day things get better for you, that's just a bonus.
Yes, I am going somewhere with this, before you ask.

Dallas-Dakota
2010-01-29, 04:48 AM
Koury, I'm not expert on this self-confidence thingy but....



About shopping and cooking for myself: I have no money. As in zero. I do not have change to dig out of my couch or a few bucks left in my bank account. I have 0. I can't shop for myself.

About who my sister cooks for: Yes, everyone but me. And I do cook my own dinners. Corndogs and top ramen.
You can get corndogs and top ramen for free these days?
Ask your sister if she would mind/want you helping/cooking (with) dinner some days, tell her you want to help out more in the household more as long as you don't have a job.

This will
1. Let you eat more healthily.
2. Let you cook more(something which you enjoy?)
3. Let your sister have more relax time(She works a fulltime-nightshift job and has two kids? o.0 Sounds like she wouldn't say no to a bit of relax-time or some extra sleep)

About walking to my moms: Heck no. I'm not spending over an hour to walk to her place and then doing the same to get home.
Heck yeah.
Why not? It's good for your condition, you get some fresh air.
Perhaps on the way back pick up some groceries for your sister?(If you say no to this, it's doesn't have to be your money, you can always ask her for the shopping list and the money and say you'l just be picking it up for her?)

You're trying to maintain a good relationship with your mother, on top of other points. She only wants to talk about politics? Talk about it if you think you can keep it civil. If not, then just ask ''how was your day'' or a other topic.

Plus, if you take the sister and her kids along, you get a bit of quality time in, hopefully. You say you're not quiet or anything, so talking to them shouldn't be a problem.

About needing to talk to a professional: *shrug* Maybe. Funny thing about that is that by the time I was in a position to be able to do that, monetarily, I probably wouldn't need to anymore.
Maybe, but does your entire self-confidence really rely on your financial status?(I get it with having a place of your own but...)

About needing to make my own motivation: I used to have it. Its gone now. I don't know where to even begin to try and get it back.

About having already failed and it being my fault: I know.
Yep, now stop failing. One step at a time.

About most of the 'lame's: Yeah. Its lame. I get that part already. I just don't know how to fix it. Or if its even fixable. I feel like it's not. I want to be wrong.
That's because you are wrong.
It is fixable.

Serpentine
2010-01-29, 05:23 AM
About shopping and cooking for myself: I have no money. As in zero. I do not have change to dig out of my couch or a few bucks left in my bank account. I have 0. I can't shop for myself.You were complaining about not having any motivation to get a job. Well, here it is. Pretty obvious, when you think about it... In the meantime, make an arrangement with your sister. Offer to cook, or do some extra chore, or buy the groceries, or whatever, in return for some room in the food budget or a serve of her meals (it would be a minimal extra cost to add one more mouth to... I count a minimum of 5, I think?). The nutritional situation you're in at the moment is dismal. Do something about it.

About walking to my moms: Heck no. I'm not spending over an hour to walk to her place and then doing the same to get home.I'm walking an hour (okay, 50 minutes) to and from work, 4 days a week (assuming I stick with it). It's not all that hard. Take some music. It solves the exercise problem, by your own admission you're not doing anything better, you can help your mother with the kids, and (possibly in conjunction with the latter) you could do some chores for your mum in return for a bit of money. Or food, for that matter.

About needing to talk to a professional: *shrug* Maybe. Funny thing about that is that by the time I was in a position to be able to do that, monetarily, I probably wouldn't need to anymore.I find it hard to believe that that country's in such dire straits that you can't find some sort of free counselling service somewhere. Does the US have some equivalent to Lifeline or something?

About needing to make my own motivation: I used to have it. Its gone now. I don't know where to even begin to try and get it back.Pick a problem. Work on it. Okay, I know how much easier it is when you have someone else nagging you, so here you go: I want you to have picked a problem and started on a solution by this time next week, and tell me about it. I'm putting a reminder in my phone to make sure you've done it. I recommend organising some sort of paid chore for your mother and walking there and back at least once a week, to start.

About having already failed and it being my fault: I know.
About most of the 'lame's: Yeah. Its lame. I get that part already. I just don't know how to fix it. Or if its even fixable. I feel like it's not. I want to be wrong.Missed the point :smallsigh:

Forever Curious
2010-01-29, 05:32 AM
...congrats Koury. You've managed to get what seems like every frequent poster on this thread trying to help you out.

Normally i would add something, but once again greater minds than mine have beaten me to the punch. My only advice: listen to them. Enough said.

Too many people desire to change, yet refuse not to bother when good advice and constructive criticism is handed to them repeatedly on a silver platter. Not to be offensive, but please. learn to take advice, and if you don't wanted, at least pretend to be interested instead of resorting to sarcasm and angst.

...hm, guess I did have something to say after all.

Ninja Chocobo
2010-01-29, 05:55 AM
About walking to my moms: Heck no. I'm not spending over an hour to walk to her place and then doing the same to get home.

Dude. It's not exactly difficult. Yesterday I spent four hours walking around the city. Sure, I could have caught the train, but where's the fun in that?

Koury
2010-01-29, 06:55 AM
...congrats Koury. You've managed to get what seems like every frequent poster on this thread trying to help you out. Yeah, no doubt. Apparently the key to advice around here is posting emo song lyrics :smallbiggrin: (Of course, I like those songs anyway.)

But yeah. Its 4 am for me right now. I'll reply to the huge amount of things I have to reply to later.

I'm not being obstinate on purpose, no matter how much it may seem. I appreciate the advice guys. Please, keep beating it over my head. I'll get it eventually or die trying (no pun intended).

As I said before, yes, I think I'm funny.

Matticus
2010-01-29, 10:08 AM
So it's almost time to return to school and I go back and get to interact with a certain blonde who causes my heart rate to increase at the mere thought, and try to crawl nearer to the level of confidence to ask her out.
I feel like I have a decent chance, but on the other hand I've procrastinated...what...seven months...I'm completely terrified. But it feels worse to not do something, even if it means rejection - but rejection would completely ruin my current happy state of mind for weeks if not months. I feel like my terror is justified in that...

AtomicKitKat
2010-01-29, 10:56 AM
I was going to post something, but now I've kind of lost the train of thought.

Umael: Heh. I'm kind of used to that response. Heck, people still jump a little when I Ninja-Flash-step near them. I guess it's just something about me, that I've always tried to go from the hard end to the easy end(this is somewhat bad during examinations, if you get stuck on a hard sum and then fail because you didn't finish all the easy "gimme" questions at the beginning). I've brought this into many aspects of my life, from gaming, to job choice, and even to potential dates(ie, go after who I feel is "best"{very subjective. Some people think I'm crazy when I say I find such and such a feature attractive, but hey, it's attractive to ME.} and then work my way backwards from there if I fail. Alternatively, bang my head against that wall until it's obvious that it's not cracking, then move on). In the same way, I figured since I was painfully shy, pick a job in retail, and since it happened to be a job selling stuff I would be interested in myself, win-win.

snoopy13a
2010-01-29, 11:06 AM
Where are all the pretty, smart girls who lack enough self-confidence to hang out with me?

Pretty, smart girls with low self-esteem tend to get into relationships with jerks who treat them badly. The reason is because those jerks were assertive and confident which made them attractive.

Assertiveness and confidence goes a long way. I realize that being assetive and confident is easier said than done but we can't do much more than offer advice and being confident is often the best advice to give.

zeratul
2010-01-29, 01:02 PM
Yeah, no doubt. Apparently the key to advice around here is posting emo song lyrics :smallbiggrin: (Of course, I like those songs anyway.)



Actually I have some advice related to that that I think might help. This may sound odd, but listening to more positive music for a few months can do wonders for a persons self esteem/attitude. Last year for 3 months or so I had been listening to lots of this really depressing metal band called Sentenced and I was always really depressed and emotionally ****ed up. Then I started listening to stuff that was less depressing for a couple months and felt much better. I still listen to sentenced, just in smaller doses usually and not when I'm feeling down. So try switching over to music that you like but is less depressing or emo, not forever but for a while.

Forever Curious
2010-01-29, 01:14 PM
Actually I have some advice related to that that I think might help. This may sound odd, but listening to more positive music for a few months can do wonders for a persons self esteem/attitude. Last year for 3 months or so I had been listening to lots of this really depressing metal band called Sentenced and I was always really depressed and emotionally ****ed up. Then I started listening to stuff that was less depressing for a couple months and felt much better. I still listen to sentenced, just in smaller doses usually and not when I'm feeling down. So try switching over to music that you like but is less depressing or emo, not forever but for a while.

On that note, I'd like to share a list that may be what you're looking for:
-Basshunter (techno)
-Rise Against
-Barenaked Ladies
-Emilie Autumn
-Lady Gaga

Just to name a few.

Forever Curious
2010-01-29, 01:17 PM
Pretty, smart girls with low self-esteem tend to get into relationships with jerks who treat them badly. The reason is because those jerks were assertive and confident which made them attractive.

That's the secret, Koury: be a jerk, get women :smalltongue:

But this is true, sadly. Those who lack confidence seek those with it. And confidence leads to pride. And pride leads to malice, resulting in the quoted situation.

The trick, therefore, is to be confident without being overly prideful. Find the balance, and win.

Quincunx
2010-01-29, 01:24 PM
Another part of the trick would be to talk about something, anything other than yourself, non-stop, for the past several pages. It's hard to believe anything could be more annoying than listening to a guy saying nothing but "Man, I'm great!", but you are trying!

Aedilred
2010-01-29, 01:43 PM
H'okay. This one may take some explaning.

About a year ago I was kicked out of the place I had intended to form my long-term base in London owing to mutual misunderstanding and my kind of taking advantage of someone else's kindness and guilt. Since then I've been living in a dive with a load of people I don't know and don't socialise with. I don't enjoy it much; I don't have any space, and because the kitchen is constantly occupied I don't really cook that much (something which I've always enjoyed).

I've made no secret of my wanting to move, but it's all but impossible to find somewhere that's much nicer without sacrificing on either cost or location. I can't afford to pay any more and the location is actually ideal for both my job and seeing my gf regularly (she's about twenty minutes away on foot). I've been hoping for a while that a couple of friends of mine will be moving to London and we can get a place together, which would be ideal, but despite effort on their part nothing has yet materialised.

Last night I got a call from my gf's landlady (she's live-in, we get on well and she considers me a bonus housemate who just doesn't live there- I have my own key) saying that a friend of hers is moving away (for an unspecified but long period) and looking to rent out her place while she's gone. The place in question is about two doors up from my gf's house; the rent is about what I'm paying now, and I'd be sharing with one other person (another friend of the landlady's), who I know vaguely but not all that well.

My gut instinct was very negative, and the more I've thought about it the less good an idea it seems. It's further from the station than I would normally bother looking and would add another forty minutes to my working day, which given the hours I work would be quite unpleasant. Also, while I like the landlady, I can find her quite wearing and appreciate having my own place- even if it's not very nice- to which I can escape. I also can't help but feel that living so close to the gf without actually living *with* her wouldn't do us any good as a couple- it'd have many/all of the disadvantages of living together- something I'm actually keen to do- with few/none of the advantages.

After not much thought- but a further 24 hours hasn't changed my mind at all- I decided that unless the place was unmissably amazing I wouldn't do it. The problem now is how to turn it down without appearing rude or ungrateful.

My gf seemed surprised that I wasn't keen and seems to be treating my objections as my being silly, and their being problems to be overcome, since anything surely has to be better than where I am at the moment. I have been finding it difficult to articulate my objections and I can see how they might appear frivolous, but I know that this move doesn't feel right, and that going through with it would likely destroy my mental health- I've been getting incredibly stressed just thinking about it. The most rational objection I can muster is the extra distance to the station and hence the longer commute- but my boss is another of my gf's housemates and if asked he would likely give me a lift.*

I think I can handle my gf if I can have a proper conversation with her, and make it clear that I'm not not keen because I don't want to live closer to her, but because the exact circumstances make it undesirable. In fact, as I suggested earlier, I'd be perfectly happy to live with her- either on our own or with another friend- but the living arrangements here would do my head in. The main problem is how to turn the offer down politely. From the conversation I had with the owner this morning about having a look round I think she's been led to believe I'll say yes, but it's not her that I'm really worried about.



*That said, he brought the situation up this morning and appeared to understand my objections a lot better than anyone else so far.

xPANCAKEx
2010-01-29, 02:46 PM
Matticus

asking somone out and getting turned down is not the end of the world. So first step is to stop telling yourself that it is. This kind of negative thinking holds people back.

so second step. REALLY. Stop telling yourself that rejection is the end of the world.

yeah, the procrastination is not idea - but depending on how you play it upon your return it could work in your favour. When you see her, don't make a big song and dance about it - just a very short and brief "hey, i missed you over winter break, how do you fancy getting some food and hanging out later?"

works a treat

And in all fairness, in the even that she DOES turn you down, you suck it up. It will be rubbish for a few days, maybe even a few weeks, but if you don't allow yourself to dwell and sulk over it and force yourself to move on with things you'll be fine.

Aedilred

tricky - i can appreciate where you're coming from

I think if you worked on the basis that it would stop you having personal space away from your girlfriend should be your key point. If you're not living together then maintaining personal space is key to a healthy relationship.

as for your living situation itself... well you're either going to have to be more assertive about getting time in the kitchen, or yopu're just going to have to suck it up and get somewhere thats not 'ideal' else you won;t be happy about things.

Dallas-Dakota
2010-01-29, 02:51 PM
Heck, I've been happier because I found the guts to ask a girl out, even if I got rejected.

Pyrian
2010-01-29, 04:11 PM
So it's almost time to return to school and I go back and get to interact with a certain blonde who causes my heart rate to increase at the mere thought, and try to crawl nearer to the level of confidence to ask her out.Good luck, Matticus! Even if it doesn't work out, getting practice at pushing through your fears and courting will help you in the long run. Also, at least you'll know.

Tequila Sunrise
2010-01-29, 11:33 PM
Hi all! I don't have any specific crisis, but I'd appreciate some general advice.

I finally got what seems to be a decent job last week -- *crossed fingers so as not to jinx it* -- which boosts my confidence enough so that I'm willing to start dating again. Problem is, as it has always been, that I just don't know how to talk to strangers -- especially women strangers who I'm attracted to.

I can say 'hi,' but I just don't know what to say after that. You see, unless we have a clear similar interest, I don't know how to start a conversation. I've never been good at small talk, I have no idea how to turn on/off my flirt button, but I think my biggest problem is that I assume that it's as clear to everyone else as it is to myself why I'm talking to some random stranger -- because I'm interested in her. If I see a woman alone reading a book or doing whatever, I'd feel rude to interrupt whatever she's doing; if I see a woman chatting with other women, I feel like they'd all be watching and judging me if I were to just barge in on their clique; if I see a woman with a man, I assume that they're a couple. The only way I don't feel immediately awkward at the thought of chatting up a random woman is if she's alone and just staring into space -- and that doesn't happen very often.

I suppose this is why men come up with all those lame pick-up lines, but I can't bring myself to be that...absurd. Well, absurd in that way. Usually the only way I can think of to start a conversation is to say something like "So, have you ever role played an elf?" in the hopes of establishing a similar interest. :smalleek: Which of course I know is equally absurd.

Pyrian
2010-01-30, 12:07 AM
Big subject. Best thing I ever read on small talk was here:

How to Win Friends and Influence People (http://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0671723650)

Coidzor
2010-01-30, 12:44 AM
Hmm, so that book isn't just one of those crazy things my mom liked, but actually useful?

Koury
2010-01-30, 01:06 AM
Yeah, I know my attitude sucks. I WANT it to change. Wanting it doesn't make it so. I am not simply ignoring what you all say.

As for what you quoted, guess what. I'm depressed. That kind of thought process happens. Ignoring the good things I posted and focusing on that helps what, exactly? That is similar to pointing out that your post has at least 12 errors in it, grammatically.

Unnecessary of me, and I apologize.

skywalker
2010-01-30, 02:29 AM
Hmm, so that book isn't just one of those crazy things my mom liked, but actually useful?

Definitely not. Very, very useful indeed. It may well have changed my life.

Pyrian
2010-01-30, 04:27 AM
Hmm, so that book isn't just one of those crazy things my mom liked, but actually useful?I was a little surprised, myself. :smallcool:

Adumbration
2010-01-30, 01:02 PM
IRL friends, you know who you are. Please step outside, this really has nothing to do with you. :smallwink:

That out of the way, I'd like to see if someone here can bring some light to something that has had me wondering for the last few months.

This will take some explaining, so bear with me. I'm currently serving my time - literally, it's mandatory here. Look it up - in the Finnish army. It's not fun, but it will be over soon. This has no real impact on my questions, but it explains some things.

So here's the thing. This winter - I think it was November - I was sitting in the common room by myself, and was setting up a film to watch. I can't recall what it was anymore. Anyway, this girl that lives in the room across our room - she's a MP, I'm a medic - walks past and stops. Long story short, we had a little conversation and she decides to join my company.

Now, this happens for a couple of times in the same week. We watch a movie, comment on it, etc. etc, generally have a decent time. Apparently she's been relieved of duty for some days to recover from an illness, so she doesn't have much to do at evenings.

Being the army, the free time of us both ends soon. She recovers, and I head out to a camp. Before the weekend vacation, one night we watch Sweeney Todd, but are interrupted when a popular show comes on. I lend her the film to watch later, and she accepts graciously.

For the next few months, we only see each other rarely... But each time we see each other, for some reason we both smile broadly. I get the feeling she likes to see me, and I like to see her. No major conversations, though, we just see each other when we pass by.

One evening she comes to return the film; she's had it for some months now. She says she hasn't watched it yet, though, and asks if I would like to see it with her some time. Sure.

But weekend comes around, and neither of us has had the time. Being interested, I look her up at Facebook and invite her as a friend. Soon enough, I get the positive response. I look up her profile.

She's engaged.

And now I'm just plain confused. Have I read her completely wrong? Was she just looking for a friend?

Lately I've been keeping some distance. Being the army, it's quite easy and inconspicuous, I think. Any advice, comments? Like I said, I'm a bit confused, and quite inexperienced with women.


EDIT: Wow, that turned out long. Sorry!

Pyrian
2010-01-30, 01:47 PM
Hey Adumbration! Finland may be out of my cultural awareness. However, my impression based on my own experiences is that if you were that close to her for that long and didn't make a "move" of any kind, she probably didn't even consider you to be interested in being more than friends! Seriously, if she really wanted you, she probably would've found a way to push the issue somewhere in there. It sounds to me like you were cultivated as a friend and maybe as an alternative if her primary relationship fell through, but your description doesn't really sound like she was outright pursuing a relationship with you.

Alternatively, of course, her Facebook may just be out of date. :smalltongue:

Tequila Sunrise
2010-01-30, 02:55 PM
Thanks for the book idea, Pyrian. I'm off to the library.

IRL friends, you know who you are. Please step outside, this really has nothing to do with you. :smallwink:

That out of the way, I'd like to see if someone here can bring some light to something that has had me wondering for the last few months.

This will take some explaining, so bear with me. I'm currently serving my time - literally, it's mandatory here. Look it up - in the Finnish army. It's not fun, but it will be over soon. This has no real impact on my questions, but it explains some things.

So here's the thing. This winter - I think it was November - I was sitting in the common room by myself, and was setting up a film to watch. I can't recall what it was anymore. Anyway, this girl that lives in the room across our room - she's a MP, I'm a medic - walks past and stops. Long story short, we had a little conversation and she decides to join my company.

Now, this happens for a couple of times in the same week. We watch a movie, comment on it, etc. etc, generally have a decent time. Apparently she's been relieved of duty for some days to recover from an illness, so she doesn't have much to do at evenings.

Being the army, the free time of us both ends soon. She recovers, and I head out to a camp. Before the weekend vacation, one night we watch Sweeney Todd, but are interrupted when a popular show comes on. I lend her the film to watch later, and she accepts graciously.

For the next few months, we only see each other rarely... But each time we see each other, for some reason we both smile broadly. I get the feeling she likes to see me, and I like to see her. No major conversations, though, we just see each other when we pass by.

One evening she comes to return the film; she's had it for some months now. She says she hasn't watched it yet, though, and asks if I would like to see it with her some time. Sure.

But weekend comes around, and neither of us has had the time. Being interested, I look her up at Facebook and invite her as a friend. Soon enough, I get the positive response. I look up her profile.

She's engaged.

And now I'm just plain confused. Have I read her completely wrong? Was she just looking for a friend?

Lately I've been keeping some distance. Being the army, it's quite easy and inconspicuous, I think. Any advice, comments? Like I said, I'm a bit confused, and quite inexperienced with women.


EDIT: Wow, that turned out long. Sorry!
What Pyrian said. There's a tiny chance that she's not engaged anymore, and has simply forgotten to change her facebook status -- I've been guilty of that -- or that she's 'polyamorous,' but the most likely explanation is that she just wants another friend.

Adumbration
2010-01-30, 03:28 PM
If this is the case, I'm actually quite relieved to have some clarity in the situation. In one hand, I was feeling a bit guilty at avoiding her - she's a pretty nice personality - and in the other, I really didn't want to get involved with an engaged woman.

But if she's just looking for a friend, I'll be more than happy to oblige. (If she was free, it'd be a different case, of course, but a female friend would be nice. I have none too many of those.)

Going to take this as a positive experience.

As a sidenote... I didn't really mention it in the post, but in the intervening months, we really didn't see often, what with her MP duties and my military hospital duty. She also has a tendency to go out on evening vacations, while I often remain at the barracks. (My home is too far for casual visits, and the only other action is going out to eat or drink.)

Koury
2010-01-30, 06:21 PM
I found two (http://www.thegamematrix.com/) places (http://www.othersidegames.com/about-us/) I'd like to work.

Well, my friend found them, but regardless, I'm applying Monday.

Dallas-Dakota
2010-01-30, 06:22 PM
>.>



But yeah. Its 4 am for me right now. I'll reply to the huge amount of things I have to reply to later.
[/COLOR]

Good on you that you're going to apply to those two jobs!

Koury
2010-01-30, 06:27 PM
Wait, why'd you quote that part? You want me to reply to everybody? I got the impression that people were getting sick of me and decided to just back off for a bit.

Dallas-Dakota
2010-01-30, 06:28 PM
Actually no, I think they were getting a bit sick of your self-deatism, not you.

I know that it takes a lot of efford, considering I'm coming out of having no self-confidence at all and improving.

Force
2010-01-30, 07:31 PM
Congratulations. It's good to hear that you've started on the road upwards. ^^ You can do it!

xPANCAKEx
2010-01-30, 09:31 PM
Adumbration

i think pyrian had it right with his analysis.

For final clarrification you can always ask her about the engagement just to see what the score is. Nothing too confrontationational or demanding... just a more casual/friendly approach like "so i see you're engaged, whos the lucky guy?"

Its its a joke, you'll swiftly find out, with a little embarrassment on their part. If they are actually engaged you may have to put up with a conversation or 2 about their other half. But hey, thats part of the parcel of being friends sometimes

Serpentine
2010-01-30, 10:38 PM
I found two (http://www.thegamematrix.com/) places (http://www.othersidegames.com/about-us/) I'd like to work.

Well, my friend found them, but regardless, I'm applying Monday.Good luck! Update me next week, as per my last post. This counts.

Coidzor
2010-01-31, 03:46 AM
What an ominous message that is, Serps.

Serpentine
2010-01-31, 03:51 AM
With the wonders of wireless technology (as I understand them), it is now hurtling through space to some unsuspecting lifeform incomprehensible to our fragile human imaginations, yet just starting its first steps into the universe, still malleable and seeking direction.

INWranger
2010-01-31, 09:46 PM
Tequila you may want to expand your net to a resource you haven't considered, which is your friends and who they hang out with or might have leads on. Or go someplace where there would be people of both genders and look around see who you like. Finally if you want to get closer to a date and like to play it safer, become friends or aquaintances with their friends and aquaintances. I did that to go out with a girl and 2 years later we still haven't gone out as she is legitimately busy, but she is a great friend that I value highly.

Lamech
2010-01-31, 10:36 PM
So there is a girl in one of my classes who is rather attractive. I was in a couple of her classes last year, and I'm somewhat acquainted with her. The point is I'm not really sure how exactly to proceed, but I would like to go on a date with her... And I kind of want advice and I think this is the right thread...

Serpentine
2010-01-31, 10:41 PM
Option #1: The Organic Approach.
Talk to her, flirt a bit, be friends and be friendly, give her an extra-special smile when you see her, hang out, go out of your way to sit next to her at group gatherings and the like, go (or stay in and) see a movie with her and/or others, brush her foot or hand with yours in the dark, etc.

Option #2: The Direct Approach.
"Hey. I like you a lot and would like to get to know you better. Want to go to [activity/place] with me on [day and time]?"

I like #1, but #2 has its charms.

xPANCAKEx
2010-02-01, 04:36 AM
#2 for sure

intentionally building the organic approach stops it being organic. If it was going to occur that way, it would already be happening

no need to be so blunt as to outright say "i like you a lot" (infact, leaving that out is often wise - it not only adds a touch of mystery, but stops you scaring the hell out of them), just a simple "hey, fancy grabbing coffee/lunch after class" - If you don't know her too well, its a chance to get to know each other a bit better

if that goes well, then you can consider a more formal date

Serpentine
2010-02-01, 07:57 AM
Bah! Number 1 will always be #1 to me! :smalltongue: And yeah, you're probably right about the more casual approach with #2, except that, in high school (which I presume is the current situation of Lamech), there isn't really generally (in my experience) any way to "just casually" "grab a coffee/lunch after class". It's pretty much "go out of your way to organise a day and activity that is unequivocally a date" or nothin'.

xPANCAKEx
2010-02-01, 09:39 AM
where as #1 is just unequivocally creepy if its anything less than naturally occuring behavior :smallwink: don't get me wrong, #1 is the far superior option, but if its not happening on on its own, then its best left well alone

#2 certainly is very date-ish if you're in high school (or even college), but the cooler you play it, the easier it is. However, if you say the words "do you wanna go on a date with me", then it piles in tonnes of extra pressure that, while adding a desirable degree of clarity, can be counter productive. Sometimes, holding off on calling a spade a spade can work wonders

Frozen_Feet
2010-02-01, 10:24 AM
I've been thinking about what to do with my life, and there's this oddball idea rolling around in my head. After finding a job, the next things in my to-do list are....
Find an apartment
Find a romantic interest


While thinking about the complications of the first, I've been considering combining it with the second. I reckon the usual formula is 'find a love, then discuss about moving together'; how feasible is 'find someone to share the rent, then talk about that 'love' thing if the stars align and cows fly'? My current sphere of friends includes no valid candidates, which leaves option Z, total strangers. What would you think if you saw an announcement reading 'social recluse looking for a flatmate'?

Quincunx
2010-02-01, 10:34 AM
Phrased like that? Run screaming. Way too terse. The idea's valid enough for finding friends--who doesn't want a companionable flatmate?--but that's not precisely the way to go about finding one. It's certainly a bad idea to go looking for a romance/flatmate. If you don't believe that, go read back a few pages (actually, that'll probably push you back into the end of the old thread) about the fallout from someone having second thoughts about such a situation. Putting out for rent, even putting out love, is no recipe for happiness.

[EDIT: Examples which might interest me in contacting you would be "seeking housemate willing to share family-style dinners" letting me know that you don't want to just be that faceless guy renting the other room or "looking for sociable MMO gamer for tidy apartment and fast internet" for someone with a similar outlook and values or "Just Shy, Not Antisocial" for the xkcd reference. Be more specific about activities, not your personality, than what you initially posted.]

xPANCAKEx
2010-02-01, 10:56 AM
Frozen_Feet

sadly for a genuine romantic interest to occur you'll have to stop being a social recluse. Relationships arn't something you can pick up off the shelf in a supermarket. Well,... sure you can find someone who will share those common values and have the same ideas, but odds are it probably won't be that butterflies-in-stomach, excited-like-a-small-child kind of romantic relationship. Finding someone who will make you feel all that is a rare occurance, but doing that while simaltaniously trying to find someone who you could consider living with might be too tall an order. Take it in baby-steps.

Get out there, meet people, then its all infinately more likely to occur

as for searching for housemates. Theres always adverts for "quiet" houses, or relaxed places. You just have to search through the ads to find the people on your wavelength. Or better yet, place an advert yourself, see who responds.

If i saw an advert like that i might be intrigued - are they the cool social recluse, who likes to have fun, but are just a bit shy. Or are they the quite kind who just likes to spend time on their own. Or are they the buzzkill kind who wants everyone else in the house to be quiet ALL the time.

If you want to place an advert, think about what kind of housemate you'd be, and what kind of people you'd be willing to live with.

Stadge
2010-02-01, 11:02 AM
Not really a woe per se, but advice might be welcome.

Iím in my first year of uni, and from the start of this term onwards Iíve become attracted to one of my female friends, probably due to hanging around with her a lot more than I did last term. Now, and Iím sure this is probably a commonly heard statement; I need to figure out what to do about this. Iím not sure whether or not she likes me, I mean weíve been spending more time together recently, sheís been known to text me to see if Iíll keep her company whilst she smokes (if Iím not already around) and weíre the only two from our friend group planning to see a band in April, but Iíve a tendency to ignore and/or over-analyse things unfortunately.

Part of me is thinking ďGo for it, see what happensĒ as even if she turns me down I canít see it being that awkward between us. But the cowardly part of me is telling me to just leave it and save messing up the social structure of the group. Not sure what to do really, I know thereís a film she wants to see, but itís only on until Thursday here and I know she has a ridiculously busy week, so I dunno.

I apologise if some of this doesnít make much sense, but itís nice to be able to ramble slightly if you get what I mean.

Edited: for improved aesthetic structure.

V for Victory
2010-02-01, 03:36 PM
You said there is nothing to lose and everything to gain, to me this seems like a no brainer. I think you should go for it, Just say "hey, do you wanna go out, like as a date, sometime"

Aedilred
2010-02-01, 04:30 PM
tricky - i can appreciate where you're coming from

I think if you worked on the basis that it would stop you having personal space away from your girlfriend should be your key point. If you're not living together then maintaining personal space is key to a healthy relationship.

as for your living situation itself... well you're either going to have to be more assertive about getting time in the kitchen, or yopu're just going to have to suck it up and get somewhere thats not 'ideal' else you won;t be happy about things.

I went and had a look at the place on Friday night; it's very nice, but not nice enough that I was prepared to make the other sacrifices that would go with it. As I suspected, when I mentioned some of my reservations people fell over themselves to find solutions - my boss was asked if he'd mind giving me a lift (no), my potential housemate offered to pay more (since he'd have a bigger room) thus keeping the cost to me down. I told them I'd have a think about it and then let them know.

A proper chat with my gf, rather than ten minutes over MSN, sorted that part out. She basically said that if I was living next-door she wouldn't expect to see any more of me than she did at the moment, because we both have our own lives to be getting on with. This was fair and pretty much what I'd expected, but it also meant there was no point my living so close. She didn't mind whether I took the place or not- while it would be nice to have somewhere of our own some of the time, there were corresponding disadvantages to make up for that... and that was pretty much my opinion in the first place. She was mostly just surprised that I hadn't been interested, for the sake of moving out of where I am at the moment.

I turned it down in the end, on the basis that my friend was planning to move up in the next couple of months (which is true, although it's far from definite that he actually will) and I didn't want to mess anybody around that being the case. Although disappointed, and thinking I was a bit mad, no-one seemed to take offence over it, so I appear to have dodged a bullet there.

As to my current living arrangements, they're not great and I am looking to move, but having already moved three times in the last two years I'm eager for my next one to be the last for some time, and where I'm living now isn't so horrible that I couldn't bear to live here for another few months until something comes up.

The next big issue is really raising the living together question with the gf. Knowing her, I'm pretty sure that I'm going to have to be the one to raise it. My main problem on this issue is a financial one, really- she earns a lot more than I do, and has a lot more saved, to the point she could almost afford to buy, while I don't really have a bean. I'd feel a lot more comfortable raising the issue if there were a bit more parity in that respect, or even if I had a job with some, y'know, prospects. Admittedly, while renting, we'd both likely be paying the same, but still the financial disparity makes it a bit awkward since I don't want to make it look like I'm asking her to support me. I suspect it's something that's going to have to come up sooner or later, though, since we're both looking to move.

Umael
2010-02-01, 04:58 PM
I appear to have dodged a bullet there.

Way to go.


The next big issue is really raising the living together question with the gf. Knowing her, I'm pretty sure that I'm going to have to be the one to raise it. My main problem on this issue is a financial one, really- she earns a lot more than I do, and has a lot more saved, to the point she could almost afford to buy, while I don't really have a bean. I'd feel a lot more comfortable raising the issue if there were a bit more parity in that respect, or even if I had a job with some, y'know, prospects. Admittedly, while renting, we'd both likely be paying the same, but still the financial disparity makes it a bit awkward since I don't want to make it look like I'm asking her to support me. I suspect it's something that's going to have to come up sooner or later, though, since we're both looking to move.

Ouch.

Well, you probably know what you got to do here.

Knock over a bank Talk to her. A lot, and be willing to be very flexible.

dogmac
2010-02-01, 06:14 PM
Hey, guys (and girls).

I got sent a link to this post. I think it is awesome, and something everyone wanting to date should read

http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

Serpentine
2010-02-01, 09:26 PM
where as #1 is just unequivocally creepy if its anything less than naturally occuring behavior :smallwink: don't get me wrong, #1 is the far superior option, but if its not happening on on its own, then its best left well aloneEh, I largely disagree, if only because any degree of self-awareness immediately renders it "less than naturally occuring behaviour". But I understand perfectly that it's not the best for everyone, and it carries an inherent risk of the object of one's affections being snaffled up before it makes any progress. Butcheh, the major point of my #2 was the "would you like to go to [location/activity] with me on [day/time]", not the first bit.

Frozen Feet: although to a large extent my recent romantic endeavors have ended up that way, I'd discourage that approach. It invites all sorts of complications and issues.

Coidzor
2010-02-02, 01:04 AM
Hey, guys (and girls).

I got sent a link to this post. I think it is awesome, and something everyone wanting to date should read

http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

Huh. Here I was hoping for something usable rather than, well, being insulted for being male repeatedly.

dogmac
2010-02-02, 01:13 AM
Hmm.. there you go. I didn't think it was insulting to males, generally. I thought it was quite useful in a "learn to read body language and respect it. Give them an out. Understand why they may be scared" type way.

But then, I'm not male.

Umael
2010-02-02, 01:19 AM
Huh. Here I was hoping for something usable rather than, well, being insulted for being male repeatedly.

Don't let it get to you, Coidzor. I very much doubt the author had you in mind.

Syka
2010-02-02, 01:24 AM
I'm pretty sure that article caused problems in the former Girl Thread, unless I'm mistaken.

I think the spirit of it was good, even if the delivery wasn't the best.

Coidzor
2010-02-02, 02:01 AM
Well, it's mostly that her writing tone was... ambiguous enough that she had to really explain herself in the comments.

To be honest, I'm not really sure who she had in mind, because it didn't really add to the pot in terms of enlightening those of us who still can't relate to the weak position of women, nor would it really be helpful to the socially inept or disadvantaged due to various conditions. Or really do much beyond, "women do X to close themselves off because they never want to be interacted with in Y at all," in terms of new information for me. Not sure what of it would really grab at a man on the street, beyond the one in sixty men = rapists or will be thing.

And in a way, Umael, I am part of the target audience. I'm hard of hearing and as a result have a tendency to lean towards people to hear their replies, which, since I'm 6'0" isn't a good thing, been trying to kick that habit for several years now, and I err on the slightly too loud for the same reason.

AtomicKitKat
2010-02-02, 10:39 AM
I think the rapist thing is part of the primary flaw with statistics and conflation in general. I fear for my life whenever I step out of the house, but that's more because I've made a lot of "enemies"(really, many of them just people who were jerks that I told to their faces) over the years, and being the not-so-sociable guy who doesn't hang out in groups, whenever I see a group of youths congregating, with their crazy hair colours and dumb fool pants dragging on the floor while their ass-crack is exposed, I immediately start flicking my eyes all around to find the exits. So yes, it's not like guys don't have to fear for their lives. We've just had to learn to suppress those feelings in order to avoid giving off "victim" signals to those gang members.:smalleek:

Umael
2010-02-02, 11:50 AM
And in a way, Umael, I am part of the target audience. I'm hard of hearing and as a result have a tendency to lean towards people to hear their replies, which, since I'm 6'0" isn't a good thing, been trying to kick that habit for several years now, and I err on the slightly too loud for the same reason.

Okay, I see your point.

What I was getting at was that the target audience seemed to be men without a clue. From my meager memory of your interaction on this board, you did not seem like the type.

(Of course, the article ignores the fact that while a number of women have this "fear" reaction built into them, a number do not. People are people; no one size fits all.)

cycoris
2010-02-02, 12:34 PM
I think the rapist thing is part of the primary flaw with statistics and conflation in general. I fear for my life whenever I step out of the house, but that's more because I've made a lot of "enemies"(really, many of them just people who were jerks that I told to their faces) over the years, and being the not-so-sociable guy who DOESN'T hang out in groups, whenever I see a group of youths congregating, with their crazy hair colours and dumb fool pants dragging on the floor while their ass-crack is exposed, I immediately start flicking my eyes all around to find the exits. So yes, it's not like guys don't have to fear for their lives. We've just had to learn to suppress those feelings in order to avoid giving off "victim" signals to those gang members.:smalleek:

Honestly, I think that if we're going to have this discussion, what I've bolded is a key point. You have actively done something that results in your fear, whereas I don't believe that the same could be said for many women.

No, I'm not saying that I agree with everything in the article. I haven't thought it through enough to discuss it in depth, and don't particularly want to (discuss it here, that is). However, I think it's important, whether for the purposes of this discussion or another, for people to not confuse fear over the consequences of something you did and fear due to something that is outside of the individual's control.

Now, on with the woes and such.

Any suggestions on telling a guy who I've already turned down three times that I don't want to talk to him as much as he does me?

He'll call me once every week or two, 'just to see how I'm doing', and it always ends up being a 30 minutes plus conversation, because I can't seem to cut things off unless I have something really urgent that I need to be doing. I don't want to offend him, because he's a good friend of a good friend, but I also don't particularly want to talk to him.

Halp?

Aedilred
2010-02-02, 01:04 PM
You could try claiming business with something that requires you to put the phone down immediately- tell him you're driving, for instance, as soon as he answers the phone. If he tries to keep talking anyway, hang up. It may seem rude, but it would be perfectly reasonable under the circumstances (if it were true). This may help to get him at least out of the habit of not taking no for an answer when you tell him you have to go.

If it doesn't improve, though, I'd suggest talking to your friend about it (I assume you met him through them?) Not necessarily anything specific, but if you talk in vague enough terms about how you're a bit concerned about him as he keeps calling you up- maybe he needs someone to talk to?- could help you enlist their assistance in the matter. If they mention it to him, even in entirely neutral terms, it may help him to realise what he's doing and cut it out.

If deception and social scheming aren't really your cup of tea, of course, you could try just telling him upfront: "Look, you're a nice guy, but I don't think we're ever going to be anything more than friends. You're calling me an awful lot, and we both have our own lives to be getting on with. Perhaps we should take a break from each other for a while?" or something to that effect.

Forever Curious
2010-02-02, 01:09 PM
Honestly, I think that if we're going to have this discussion, what I've bolded is a key point. You have actively done something that results in your fear, whereas I don't believe that the same could be said for many women.

No, I'm not saying that I agree with everything in the article. I haven't thought it through enough to discuss it in depth, and don't particularly want to (discuss it here, that is). However, I think it's important, whether for the purposes of this discussion or another, for people to not confuse fear over the consequences of something you did and fear due to something that is outside of the individual's control.

Now, on with the woes and such.

Any suggestions on telling a guy who I've already turned down three times that I don't want to talk to him as much as he does me?

He'll call me once every week or two, 'just to see how I'm doing', and it always ends up being a 30 minutes plus conversation, because I can't seem to cut things off unless I have something really urgent that I need to be doing. I don't want to offend him, because he's a good friend of a good friend, but I also don't particularly want to talk to him.

Halp?


Well that's what you get for being attractive, apparently. :smalltongue:

On a serious note, if you're extremely concerned, I advise just crushing him: tell him off in the most painful way possible (helps if you know him well enough).

If that doesn't strike your fancy, perhaps your friend of this "friend" could help.

Syka
2010-02-02, 01:24 PM
I had a friend, who I care for, who was calling me frequently and we always seemed to have long conversations (thank God we have the same carrier).

I feel bad, but I eventually told her that I really don't have time to talk that much- and I don't. School is insane and I need downtime.

Just tell him you can't talk, period. If he continues, tell him you are going. Then hang up. You don't need to give a reason, to be honest. If you don't consider him a friend, you owe him nothing.



As for the article, I agree with cycoris. There is a difference between having done something and having a REASON to worry, and having done nothing other than be female and have no real reason to worry...yet having to worry anyway.

xPANCAKEx
2010-02-02, 01:51 PM
cycoris

gunna have to go with crushing him here too. and getting the good friend to step in and have "a quiet word in his ear" may also be benificial. At least then if you do have to crush him, your good friend will be aware that you already have tried to be nice about it and won't immediately assume you've been out of line about anything.

However, theres no necessity to be offensive about it, but being blunt is the way forward. But im intrigued, these past three times you've turned him down, how did you do it?

And next time he calls just say "sorry, im a bit busy for a chat right now" - lie if you have to.

Your feelings and well being come first, not his.

snoopy13a
2010-02-02, 01:52 PM
Any suggestions on telling a guy who I've already turned down three times that I don't want to talk to him as much as he does me?

He'll call me once every week or two, 'just to see how I'm doing', and it always ends up being a 30 minutes plus conversation, because I can't seem to cut things off unless I have something really urgent that I need to be doing. I don't want to offend him, because he's a good friend of a good friend, but I also don't particularly want to talk to him.

Halp?

If he is calling your cell phone then don't answer if you see his number. Then don't return his call.

If he is calling your house phone then have someone screen the calls for you. If this person is calling have them say you are busy. Then don't return his call.

Stadge
2010-02-02, 01:53 PM
Thanks V, shall have to wait a while now though if I do go through with it. Her family friend died of caner today, and with her being on a different continent things are kinda tougher than the awfulness they would otherwise be. She needs a friend more than anything else, and at the end of the day, that's what I am.

AtomicKitKat
2010-02-02, 01:56 PM
I'm not saying I haven't done stuff to PO people, but my point about the youths still stands(I think). I see people who I think may cause trouble, and I avoid them. It's a bit profile-y, but there it is. I didn't choose to be born a guy, heck, in my lifetime, I've seen it going from "A man's world"(The motto for the clothing brand Goldlion), to "A woman's world"(these days, just about anything a guy does that interacts with a woman in some way can result in criminal proceedings, it seems), so little wonder that some days I just spend (collectively) an hour or so in ennui wondering at the whole point of life. Then I remind myself that I could probably end the world, if the idiocy of past generations doesn't beat me to it. Anyway, ignore the bit about the making enemies, and my point is that a man is just as likely, if not more so, to lose his life to another man than a woman is to rape(think I read that somewhere too). Doesn't make either act less heinous, but I believe that both genders do in fact have reasons to fear strangers(and sadly enough, more often than not, it's male strangers, but again, there you go).

Pyrian
2010-02-02, 02:34 PM
I do suggest that we refrain from having that conversation again. :smallcool:

skywalker
2010-02-02, 02:42 PM
I do suggest that we refrain from having that conversation again. :smallcool:

But it turned out so well last time!

...

And that's... all I have to say about it.

V for Victory
2010-02-02, 07:01 PM
Thanks V, shall have to wait a while now though if I do go through with it. Her family friend died of caner today, and with her being on a different continent things are kinda tougher than the awfulness they would otherwise be. She needs a friend more than anything else, and at the end of the day, that's what I am.

Or you could uses this weakened emotional state to advance your cause. Depends on what your willing to risk. Your call. At the end of the day you and her are the only ones affected by this

Forever Curious
2010-02-02, 07:19 PM
But it turned out so well last time!

...

And that's... all I have to say about it.

Aww, did I miss a heated "dabate" (aka flame war)? Sigh, I love throwing my hat into those.

AtomicKitKat
2010-02-02, 08:06 PM
I do suggest that we refrain from having that conversation again. :smallcool:

And thus, my cue to end my involvement in discussing that page as well.

Kuma Da
2010-02-02, 08:10 PM
Or you could uses this weakened emotional state to advance your cause. Depends on what your willing to risk. Your call. At the end of the day you and her are the only ones affected by this

This...this advice. I am so terribly opposed to it. Nothing, ever, good comes of trying to found a relationship on someone else's pain or vulnerability. The most you'll get is a short term thing followed by loads of emotional fallout.

Give her time. Sheesh.

Forever Curious
2010-02-02, 08:13 PM
This...this advice. I am so terribly opposed to it. Nothing, ever, good comes of trying to found a relationship on someone else's pain or vulnerability. The most you'll get is a short term thing followed by loads of emotional fallout.

Give her time. Sheesh.

Psh, you watch too much television :smalltongue:

Coidzor
2010-02-02, 08:46 PM
I can only assume it was given facetiously.

V for Victory
2010-02-02, 09:06 PM
Sorry for dissapointing but thats my actual advice, sometimes being the heartless guy gets you exactly what you want. You can actually ask xKayos as he knows me in real life and can attest to that this is no joke. However if that doesn't fit in your own ethics that's your choice and it doesn't hurt me :)

Generic Archer
2010-02-02, 09:38 PM
If he is calling your cell phone then don't answer if you see his number. Then don't return his call.

If he is calling your house phone then have someone screen the calls for you. If this person is calling have them say you are busy. Then don't return his call.

DO NOT do this, without giving at least some notice or a reason... not saying it has to be anything more than, "I don't want to talk to you, ever"...

But a random change from friendly and having a conversation to not answering and not returning calls makes me, at least concerned and more likely to try again, which is not the response you're after.
The truth is always better, cotton wool isn't.

I can say this with certainty as I seem to be going through this at the moment... except I didn't even get the "I can't talk now" bit as a fore runner, simply talking being around each other etc. to non replies to texts (all of which were regarding previous plans and nothing out of the ordinary) which is simply confusing and makes people wonder what is wrong and if they should try to help.
straightforward is the answer, as always

Dane

Thes Hunter
2010-02-02, 11:34 PM
If you and the person you are dating live in the same town, how often would you want to see them? Once a week? Twice a week? Most nights? Is it healthy to want to spend most of your time with them, even it is doing nothing?

skywalker
2010-02-02, 11:44 PM
If you and the person you are dating live in the same town, how often would you want to see them? Once a week? Twice a week? Most nights? Is it healthy to want to spend most of your time with them, even it is doing nothing?

How far away is "in the same town?" I live in the same town, technically, as my GF, but am over 40 minutes away by car. Also, how long have you been dating?

Also also, it can be healthy, and it can be not healthy, depending on your reasoning for wanting the time together.

In short: It depends. More info needed.

Coidzor
2010-02-02, 11:52 PM
If you and the person you are dating live in the same town, how often would you want to see them? Once a week? Twice a week? Most nights? Is it healthy to want to spend most of your time with them, even it is doing nothing?

Depends on how long I've been dating them. I think I wanted to see my ex-girlfriend around 4 days a week when we were living about 6 blocks from one another. I saw her more often, and I was motivated to see her for reasons other than merely wanting to see her more than that, but this was after going out for about a year.

The sex question makes things a bit stickier, since people have different sex drives.

I don't see what would be unhealthy about hanging out together or just enjoying being in the same room without interacting. Now if vegging out together was inhibiting other projects that one values, then of course, there'd need to be some compromises and communication about ensuring time for that.

Now, clinging and stifling behavior hasn't been hinted at yet, but, yeah, that kind of stuff... is unhealthy in and of itself, not necessarily in what activities are born from the motivation. Some of the activities of course, could be unhealthy in and of themselves, but I imagine most of them would just have the unhealthy tinge that the gleam of madness from the clinginess/dependency casts off.

I don't think you have to go out with them and do stuff just to enjoy one another's company, though I do enjoy a nice stroll with a lady's company, especially if she's mine.


I'd say my current ideal is a 3-4 days a week minimum(haven't decided between the two, have no reason to do so yet anyway), 6 days a week maximum, but that might just be because I miss having someone to snuggle with at night and associate such things most strongly with the weekend.

This of course is entirely born out of who I am and what I want, so, I imagine it probably sounds a bit strange to the audience.

Thes Hunter
2010-02-02, 11:58 PM
1) I was trying to get an idea of other peoples preferences, because I do not trust my own.

Many of my past relationships have been unhealthy, and one of the things I do is jump into them too quickly. As an example: This Article (http://www.enotalone.com/article/4112.html) describes typical problems in my past relationships. One of the things I have fallen for, and have done myself is made an attachment too quickly.

2) I didn't want to write a tome.

To answer your questions, Been dating about 3 months, and we live about 20 minutes away by car.


--- edit ---

I can see the next questions... we generally hang out about 1 to 2 times a week. For various and complex reasons I feel he is holding me at a distance, I am trying to decide what I want, if what I want is healthy, and if his appearent desires match with my wants/needs. At the same time giving him enough space and time to work through things if this is just a phase.

Pyrian
2010-02-03, 12:21 AM
If you and the person you are dating live in the same town, how often would you want to see them? Once a week? Twice a week? Most nights? Is it healthy to want to spend most of your time with them, even it is doing nothing?I'm all over the map on this one. Many of my relationships have been closer to once a month, and one memorably was more like once a quarter. Typically in these sorts of relationships I wanted to see the other person more often. One relationship I had swung the other way, with a woman who wanted to see me 3+ times a week and I simply didn't have the time: I'd filled my life with activities before we started going out, and was loathe to give them up. I came to resent not getting enough sleep. :smalltongue:

Coidzor
2010-02-03, 12:23 AM
Well, as long as you're using moderation in your expression of your feelings rather than just throwing them out there in some kind of torrential downpour, it seems like you'd be ok.

The inner turmoil probably isn't helping though, and I wish you luck in figuring out the churning, burning inside of you.

skywalker
2010-02-03, 12:23 AM
1) I was trying to get an idea of other peoples preferences, because I do not trust my own.

K. I saw my last girlfriend almost every day. Frequently, every day, or once every two days. But I'm not sure that was healthy. We were very emotionally close, perhaps too much for people who aren't married or planning on it. It was a tough break-up for that reason.

My current GF, I like to see 3-4 times a week. Less and I start to miss her, more is a lot of work and money (see the distance).

So really, I'm not much help. If I had the opportunity to see her more, I might.

Stadge
2010-02-03, 02:18 AM
Or you could uses this weakened emotional state to advance your cause. Depends on what your willing to risk. Your call. At the end of the day you and her are the only ones affected by this

Nah, sorry, part of me can see where you're coming from, but a much larger part knows I couldn't go through with that. I'm going to have to agree with Kuma Da on this one.

Coidzor
2010-02-03, 03:36 AM
Nah, sorry, part of me can see where you're coming from, but a much larger part knows I couldn't go through with that. I'm going to have to agree with Kuma Da on this one.

It didn't really seem like a very plausible plan either...

Stadge
2010-02-03, 04:44 AM
It didn't really seem like a very plausible plan either...

Yeah, there is that, but morals trump the absurdity in my list of reasons to not do it.

V for Victory
2010-02-03, 06:48 AM
It didn't really seem like a very plausible plan either...

Its exceedingly plausable! An example of how well it works is my own relationship which I have been in for a year and a half and I have everything I wanted from the relationships

Phaedra
2010-02-03, 06:51 AM
Its exceedingly plausable! An example of how well it works is my own relationship which I have been in for a year and a half and I have everything I wanted from the relationships

But does your partner have everything they wanted from the relationship?

V for Victory
2010-02-03, 07:57 AM
But does your partner have everything they wanted from the relationship?

Thats not my goal, that should be her goal though and if for some reason it isn't then I'm not going to jeopardize having what I want because she isn't being logical

Dallas-Dakota
2010-02-03, 08:10 AM
1. People are almost never logical and won't act logical.

There was something else, but I forgot.:smalltongue:

Oh yeah, in a relationship, you should work toghetter a bit. You come first, but remember, she comes second. Not third, fourth or whatever...

rakkoon
2010-02-03, 08:38 AM
You come first, but remember, she comes second. .

If it wasn't for the double entendre I would so sig that for being the quote of the year.

Stadge
2010-02-03, 08:49 AM
If it wasn't for the double entendre I would so sig that for being the quote of the year.

I'm tempted to sig it because of the double entendre :smalltongue:

Syka
2010-02-03, 11:36 AM
Thes, it really depends on the people involved. When I was first dating the last guy, while I was still at home, we saw each other 3-4 times a week, I'd guess. Maybe 2 or so. It depended on schedules, really.

With Oz, we see each other close to everyday. Not including illness or business travel, we've maybe not seen each other in some form 7 or so days in the last year. Granted, some days it was literally just one of us stopping by the others work to say hi, but still. Add in illness and business travel and it jumps to maybe 25-30 days out of the entire last year.

But we also did the first 15 months long-distance, have been together about 2.5 years, and would be living together if finances allowed.


My sister and her fiance, on the otherhand, when they are both home see each other 2-3 times a week, maybe. They live about 40 minutes apart, but aside from that they're relationship dynamic is just different than Oz and mine's.

Both of us have healthy relationships and all, we just prefer different standards.

So it's up to the two people involved in the relationship to determine healthy or not-healthy. Like, my relationship with my ex was not healthy, despite being long distance. Distance doesn't prevent ones life from revolving around another. This relationship, we are still two individuals, we just really like spending time together. We can, and do, do stuff apart; but if we're going to be watching X TV show, it's more fun to see it together. That sort of thing.

Pyrian
2010-02-03, 11:47 AM
Quin...Thes Hunter. Seriously, how does anybody get mistaken for Quincunx? :smallwink:

Castaras
2010-02-03, 11:51 AM
The Shunter. Seriously, how does anybody get mistaken for Quincunx? :smallwink:

Fixed. :smallwink: <.< *flee!*

Syka
2010-02-03, 12:10 PM
Because I'm ridiculously tired and, for whatever reason, did not double check. :smalltongue:

Forever Curious
2010-02-03, 12:36 PM
Sorry for dissapointing but thats my actual advice, sometimes being the heartless guy gets you exactly what you want. You can actually ask xKayos as he knows me in real life and can attest to that this is no joke. However if that doesn't fit in your own ethics that's your choice and it doesn't hurt me :)

Tis true, and it's worked out well for him, so.......

Forever Curious
2010-02-03, 12:41 PM
But does your partner have everything they wanted from the relationship?

If she doesn't have what she wants in a relationship, she should leave him. If she doesn't have what she wants and doesn't leave him, then is he really to blame for her not leaving?

The conclusion, therefore, is she has what she wants. Or has too much/little pride to leave him. Either way.

Thes Hunter
2010-02-03, 01:11 PM
Thes Hunter. Seriously, how does anybody get mistaken for Quincunx? :smallwink:

I take it as quite the compliment. :smallwink:


And thanks for all the feedback everyone!

Coidzor
2010-02-03, 04:12 PM
Tis true, and it's worked out well for him, so.......

Well, yeah, but the repercussions of her going "I see what you did there" in the middle of the maneuver seem like they would be rather bad if one shares a social group with le femme in question. Can't really comment on the efficacy due to not being sure as to what specific tactics compliment the strategy, but on the surface it just seems too fraught with perils worse than rejection(what with rejection being one of those things which is mostly set in stone but can be skewed slightly, and not really a peril so much as...) to be conscienced.

Something about unfortunate implications, you know?

Forever Curious
2010-02-03, 04:15 PM
Well, yeah, but the repercussions of her going "I see what you did there" in the middle of the maneuver seem like they would be rather bad if one shares a social group with le femme in question. Can't really comment on the efficacy due to not being sure as to what specific tactics compliment the strategy, but on the surface it just seems too fraught with perils worse than rejection(what with rejection being one of those things which is mostly set in stone but can be skewed slightly, and not really a peril so much as...) to be conscienced.

Something about unfortunate implications, you know?

Oh, I'm not saying it's not an extremely risky move. Just that it can work...apparently.

V for Victory
2010-02-03, 05:30 PM
Well, yeah, but the repercussions of her going "I see what you did there" in the middle of the maneuver seem like they would be rather bad if one shares a social group with le femme in question. Can't really comment on the efficacy due to not being sure as to what specific tactics compliment the strategy, but on the surface it just seems too fraught with perils worse than rejection(what with rejection being one of those things which is mostly set in stone but can be skewed slightly, and not really a peril so much as...) to be conscienced.

Something about unfortunate implications, you know?

Thats when you reference past lies that they bought to make current lies look true. It's a system. And it takes a little bit of luck

Destro_Yersul
2010-02-03, 05:50 PM
Thats when you reference past lies that they bought to make current lies look true. It's a system. And it takes a little bit of luck

This, I have a problem with. I wouldn't lie to someone I was in a relationship with. I've always felt honesty is important to a healthy relationship. Your mileage may vary, but to me, lying about something (though perhaps not something really small) is grounds for serious discussion, if not breakup.

Koury
2010-02-03, 06:00 PM
This, I have a problem with. I wouldn't lie to someone I was in a relationship with. I've always felt honesty is important to a healthy relationship. Your mileage may vary, but to me, lying about something (though perhaps not something really small) is grounds for serious discussion, if not breakup.

Pretty much.

Except surprise parties! I will lie to your face about whatever I need to to facilitate a surprise party. :smallbiggrin:

V for Victory
2010-02-03, 06:07 PM
Its not rude to lie so long as you guarantee you wont get caught. ITs really a service because your creating the world they want to be there

Koury
2010-02-03, 06:20 PM
:smallconfused:

Kinda like as long as your genocide is successful, there will be no one left to complain?

Syka
2010-02-03, 06:25 PM
...

That's all I really have for that incredibly offensive assumption about lying being ok because it creates the world the other person wants.

Let's just say I'm glad my boyfriend is not you.

Mando Knight
2010-02-03, 06:27 PM
ITs really a service because your creating the world they want to be there

No, it's not, because you aren't. You're producing the illusion of the world that they want.

The more you lie, the harder you'll fall when the truth returns. A funny thing, truth. You might be able to wave it away with little more than a passing comment, but it does not die. It does not sleep. It waits. And when it stops waiting, those who waved it away cannot run, for they are trapped in the nets they have woven themselves.

It's a documented trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FawltyTowersPlot). Don't put your face on the line because you can't stand the truth.

Forever Curious
2010-02-03, 06:27 PM
...

That's all I really have for that incredibly offensive assumption about lying being ok because it creates the world the other person wants.

Let's just say I'm glad my boyfriend is not you.

To each there own. Ignorance is bliss, and if the only way one can achieve their perfect relationship is through lying, then so be it.

Forever Curious
2010-02-03, 06:31 PM
No, it's not, because you aren't. You're producing the illusion of the world that they want.

The more you lie, the harder you'll fall when the truth returns. A funny thing, truth. You might be able to wave it away with little more than a passing comment, but it does not die. It does not sleep. It waits. And when it stops waiting, those who waved it away cannot run, for they are trapped in the nets they have woven themselves.

It's a documented trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FawltyTowersPlot). Don't put your face on the line because you can't stand the truth.

Ironically, even when he falls, he wins (true story).

Not saying I don't agree with you entirely. But tropes aren't perfect indicators of reality, and people, in general, are fools.

Example: I regularly go out of my way to act as sadistic as possible to a girl who lied to me. Yet, whenever I try to end our friendship, she refuses.

Moral of the story: Some people would rather be inflicted than blessed.

Pyrian
2010-02-03, 07:11 PM
Lie. Constantly...There's little point in trying to carry on an honest discussion with someone who holds up lying all the time as a virtue. His success? Could easily be a fabrication. As could any other aspect of the relationship, such as how it happened or how it continues. His friend who backs his claim up? Could be an alt. There's no reason to expect veracity from somebody who tells you - outright - that they don't believe in telling the truth in the first place.

Force
2010-02-03, 07:13 PM
...

What I learned about relationships today: Nothing is wrong with the relationship if you get what you want out of it; it doesn't matter what the other person gets out of it or even feels. Also, if you want a relationship but don't want to expend any effort on it, lying to make the other person feel what you want them to feel is a GREAT idea.

Wow. Just WOW.

Umael
2010-02-03, 07:36 PM
Interesting philosophical point:

The concept of the Good (not the good) and Truth (not the truth) cannot co-exist. That is not to say that the good thing to do is follow the Truth, for much good can come of it, or that following the Good means you will not tell the truth, for much that is true is Good, but that ultimately?

There are times when the Truth is not a Good thing.

That said, just because the two cannot occupy the same place in the hierarchy of moral obligation does not mean that to follow what is Good you eschew what is true (which is part of the Truth).

To lie deliberately in order to create an illusion is to create a deception in regards to a situation which almost always does not function well with deception.

V, if we were in a relationship (platonic, romantic, professional, whatever), and you lied to me to create an illusion, you better hope that illusion doesn't fail - because if it fails, everything you ever did, every truth you ever told, every foundation for said relationship will come under scrutiny. I will doubt your word, I will doubt your actions, I will doubt my thoughts about you and everything about you and connected to you. The illusion will be gone, replaced by the reality that is founded completely without trust, and in that space? A new relationship may arrise, but it will be one where I will suspect you and everything you ever do. I will treat you in a negative way - you will become an antagonist, a hostile witness, a suspect in any crime I might see that could be connected with you.

All because I don't trust you.

And if you were hoping that the power of your illusion would hold you, please remember that you are NOT the Matrix, you do not have complete manipulation over me, and so I highly doubt you will EVER keep the illusion intact.


For the rest of you, examples of when it is okay to lie:
- Tact. This is the big one, from answering the question "Does this dress make me look fat?" to comforting the fears of the dying.
- Political/Military secrecy and things of that nature.
- Surprise birthday parties and the like.

rayne_dragon
2010-02-03, 07:51 PM
I, personally, don't think good and true are exclusive. Not being able to tell the truth is an indication that something is wrong (not good). Military secrets are only needed because there's war, which only results from people being unable to reconcile their differences in a more reasonable fashion. Tact is only required when a person is insecure - if we were all secure in our sense of self then a critical truth would not disturb us so much that we need to be placated with little white lies. Of course, the problem is we're dealing with ideals here, which tend to be impractical in everyday life.

Still, I personally think that one should always tell the truth. However, if you can decieve someone, for innocent reasons, without telling an outright lie that behavior is acceptable to me. If anyone managed to throw a surprise party for me without lying to me or me catching on, I would be very impressed. I've even had people try to keep something from me that I would have liked to have known, but they did it without actually outright lying to me so rather than feel annoyed and betrayed, I felt proud of them for their cleverness.

Edit: also, I'd like to note that I don't believe love is possible without trust. If you're lying to your partner, you're probably with the wrong person... or at least that's how I would know I was with the wrong person... this is all opinion of course.

xPANCAKEx
2010-02-03, 07:59 PM
Lying is a suckers game. its a deal breaker for me, and i carry myself as though the other person will have the same expectation. I've broken a few hearts, and been called a few names for doing things they objected to (not neccisarily things i was WRONG to do, just they didn't like them - big difference), but in the long run i've maintained respect for myself through a reputation for brutal honesty. it should be noted that 'tact' is something that does not figure highly in my repotiore. White lies are also a suckers game

But back on point . if you have to create an illusion for someone else to be happy with you... is your relationship really worth that much?

Forever Curious
2010-02-03, 08:28 PM
...

What I learned about relationships today: Nothing is wrong with the relationship if you get what you want out of it; it doesn't matter what the other person gets out of it or even feels. Also, if you want a relationship but don't want to expend any effort on it, lying to make the other person feel what you want them to feel is a GREAT idea.

Wow. Just WOW.

Depends: is the other person doing the same? If so (and it could very well be the case that it is) then yes, it is a great idea.

Lying is, in general, a gamble. Nothing more. If you're willing to bet your integrity and partner's trust for personal (or otherwise) joy, than so be it.

In this case, V is simply treating his relationship like a capitalist society: if both partners are doing what's best for them, then the relationship will survive. Contrary is the traditional socialist approach: both partners working for the best of each other. History has shown that capitalism is superior, so why not think it would not hold up in a relationship?

Please keep in mind my neutrality. Just spewing ideas to be discussed and pondered on.

V for Victory
2010-02-03, 08:55 PM
There's little point in trying to carry on an honest discussion with someone who holds up lying all the time as a virtue. His success? Could easily be a fabrication. As could any other aspect of the relationship, such as how it happened or how it continues. His friend who backs his claim up? Could be an alt. There's no reason to expect veracity from somebody who tells you - outright - that they don't believe in telling the truth in the first place.

I like you, I like you alot. BUT lets look at that, if my freind who backs me up is infact an alt why would I have made the alt before I made this account, further more why would I be running a game with myself as a player?

A player whom I shut down whenever he tries to intimidate the party which seems to be his main tactic

Also psychologically why would I tell you I lie? If we look at that there are a few reasons, arrogance being the one I use to justify my actions. But since you don't know me what you think about me doesn't matter :)

Interesting points though


...

What I learned about relationships today: Nothing is wrong with the relationship if you get what you want out of it; it doesn't matter what the other person gets out of it or even feels. Also, if you want a relationship but don't want to expend any effort on it, lying to make the other person feel what you want them to feel is a GREAT idea.

Wow. Just WOW.

I don't see a problem if it makes you happy. That is my goal, if another person chooses not to be happy then that's their fault.

Interesting philosophical point:

The concept of the Good (not the good) and Truth (not the truth) cannot co-exist. That is not to say that the good thing to do is follow the Truth, for much good can come of it, or that following the Good means you will not tell the truth, for much that is true is Good, but that ultimately?

There are times when the Truth is not a Good thing.

That said, just because the two cannot occupy the same place in the hierarchy of moral obligation does not mean that to follow what is Good you eschew what is true (which is part of the Truth).

To lie deliberately in order to create an illusion is to create a deception in regards to a situation which almost always does not function well with deception.

V, if we were in a relationship (platonic, romantic, professional, whatever), and you lied to me to create an illusion, you better hope that illusion doesn't fail - because if it fails, everything you ever did, every truth you ever told, every foundation for said relationship will come under scrutiny. I will doubt your word, I will doubt your actions, I will doubt my thoughts about you and everything about you and connected to you. The illusion will be gone, replaced by the reality that is founded completely without trust, and in that space? A new relationship may arrise, but it will be one where I will suspect you and everything you ever do. I will treat you in a negative way - you will become an antagonist, a hostile witness, a suspect in any crime I might see that could be connected with you.

All because I don't trust you.

And if you were hoping that the power of your illusion would hold you, please remember that you are NOT the Matrix, you do not have complete manipulation over me, and so I highly doubt you will EVER keep the illusion intact.


For the rest of you, examples of when it is okay to lie:
- Tact. This is the big one, from answering the question "Does this dress make me look fat?" to comforting the fears of the dying.
- Political/Military secrecy and things of that nature.
- Surprise birthday parties and the like.

Lying is acceptable when you feel like it. Just like anything else. Your personal ethics system is not what I am debating, merely the effectivness of my own techique. You all can do what you want and I hope the best for you but this is what works for me and I was trying to help someone get what they want as soon as possible. In my origonal post on the lying topic I said that your own ethics come into play here. and now we are debating ethics which I do not belive is this threads job

But back on point . if you have to create an illusion for someone else to be happy with you... is your relationship really worth that much?

Worth is a subjective concept. Some would say whatever I want is worth whatever I need to do to get it. If i want something I get it 90% of the time through planning, force of will and any trick I can use to my advantage

Depends: is the other person doing the same? If so (and it could very well be the case that it is) then yes, it is a great idea.



You know as well as I do that it is sooooo the case. We just lie about different things for entirely opposite reasons

Serpentine
2010-02-03, 09:02 PM
V, if we were in a relationship (platonic, romantic, professional, whatever), and you lied to me to create an illusion, you better hope that illusion doesn't fail - because if it fails, everything you ever did, every truth you ever told, every foundation for said relationship will come under scrutiny. I will doubt your word, I will doubt your actions, I will doubt my thoughts about you and everything about you and connected to you. The illusion will be gone, replaced by the reality that is founded completely without trust, and in that space? A new relationship may arrise, but it will be one where I will suspect you and everything you ever do. I will treat you in a negative way - you will become an antagonist, a hostile witness, a suspect in any crime I might see that could be connected with you.

All because I don't trust you.

And if you were hoping that the power of your illusion would hold you, please remember that you are NOT the Matrix, you do not have complete manipulation over me, and so I highly doubt you will EVER keep the illusion intact.What she(?) said. I have trouble trusting my boyfriend just because he's said before that he's okay with lying, and I'm only on tentatively decent terms with a high school friend because of lies.
Basically, V, from what you've said here your relationship sounds to me entirely false and founded on emotional manipulation, your role in the couple revolving around making yourself, and only yourself, happy. It's almost an anti-relationship! :eek:

V for Victory
2010-02-03, 09:07 PM
To everyone: I understand why you don't like the concepts I'm expressing and are ganging up on me. You don't like the idea that being what is considered "wrong" can make you happy and those you want to make happy also happy. But if you have the skill and are willing to take the risk it works. Not everytime, sometimes you get caught and then you calmly move on.

However I merely posted that as advice for Stadge and I did end it saying "Your call. At the end of the day you and her are the only ones affected by this" because it is a personal choice and debating ethics is not the purpose of this thread last I checked

I put the word wrong in quotation marks because right and wrong are subjective

Forever Curious
2010-02-03, 09:13 PM
What she(?) said. I have trouble trusting my boyfriend just because he's said before that he's okay with lying, and I'm only on tentatively decent terms with a high school friend because of lies.
Basically, V, from what you've said here your relationship sounds to me entirely false and founded on emotional manipulation, your role in the couple revolving around making yourself, and only yourself, happy. It's almost an anti-relationship! :eek:

To be fair, we're only hearing half of a two-fold story. So...

SensFan
2010-02-03, 09:14 PM
To add to what has been said by others, V, you've lied to pretty much everyone you talk to on a regular basis by now, and you've certainly lied to everyone who reads this thread. This is the problem with your type of lifestyle, you start with one lie to someone (in this case your girlfriend), and pretty soon, you're lying about pretty much everything that comes out of your mouth (for example: any time you've ever said to anyone that you loved or cared about your girlfriend, any time you've ever told anyone you respect her, etc), and that's just the things that directly contradict the very little I know about you.

Based on one single thing you said on a message board, everyone who reads it now knows that you lie to pretty much everyone you know on a regular basis. Just one person who knows you in real life ever hearing that from you, or catching you in one of your hundreds of lies, is enough for every single person you know to know that you're a pathelogical liar, and none of them will ever likely fully trust you again.

Forever Curious
2010-02-03, 09:16 PM
To add to what has been said by others, V, you've lied to pretty much everyone you talk to on a regular basis by now, and you've certainly lied to everyone who reads this thread. This is the problem with your type of lifestyle, you start with one lie to someone (in this case your girlfriend), and pretty soon, you're lying about pretty much everything that comes out of your mouth (for example: any time you've ever said to anyone that you loved or cared about your girlfriend, any time you've ever told anyone you respect her, etc), and that's just the things that directly contradict the very little I know about you.

Based on one single thing you said on a message board, everyone who reads it now knows that you lie to pretty much everyone you know on a regular basis. Just one person who knows you in real life ever hearing that from you, or catching you in one of your hundreds of lies, is enough for every single person you know to know that you're a pathelogical liar, and none of them will ever likely fully trust you again.

...you say that as if this is news to him.

SensFan
2010-02-03, 09:21 PM
...you say that as if this is news to him.
I suppose I was working on the assumption that he'd rather not be one tiny slip away from losing every friendship and relationship in his life.

V for Victory
2010-02-03, 09:21 PM
To add to what has been said by others, V, you've lied to pretty much everyone you talk to on a regular basis by now, and you've certainly lied to everyone who reads this thread. This is the problem with your type of lifestyle, you start with one lie to someone (in this case your girlfriend), and pretty soon, you're lying about pretty much everything that comes out of your mouth (for example: any time you've ever said to anyone that you loved or cared about your girlfriend, any time you've ever told anyone you respect her, etc), and that's just the things that directly contradict the very little I know about you.

Based on one single thing you said on a message board, everyone who reads it now knows that you lie to pretty much everyone you know on a regular basis. Just one person who knows you in real life ever hearing that from you, or catching you in one of your hundreds of lies, is enough for every single person you know to know that you're a pathelogical liar, and none of them will ever likely fully trust you again.

True, but I admit to being a liar. I tell everyone, thats when you question everything I say and i don't need to try to lie because your questioning yourself till you don't know. then over time the average human will stop trying and as they have no base for when I tell the truth they don't know my tells for when I lie

Once again, this is a suggestion. I am not forcing it on anyone. Merely the way I live my life

Forever Curious
2010-02-03, 09:23 PM
I suppose I was working on the assumption that he'd rather not be one tiny slip away from losing every friendship and relationship in his life.

That assumes that 1) he cares, and 2) that "every friendship and relationship in his life" are with people who detest liars.

V for Victory
2010-02-03, 09:25 PM
That assumes that 1) he cares, and 2) that "every friendship and relationship in his life" are with people who detest liars.

and 3) that I can't recover

Reinholdt
2010-02-03, 09:27 PM
To everyone: I understand why you don't like the concepts I'm expressing and are ganging up on me. You don't like the idea that being what is considered "wrong" can make you happy and those you want to make happy also happy. But if you have the skill and are willing to take the risk it works. Not everytime, sometimes you get caught and then you calmly move on.

What about the pain and suffering that is caused to the other person when they discover the lies?

SensFan
2010-02-03, 09:27 PM
That assumes that 1) he cares, and 2) that "every friendship and relationship in his life" are with people who detest liars.
1) Like I said, I was assuming he didn't want that
2) I'd be pretty shocked if he even knows 5 people who wouldn't be fairly disgusted that he has lied and used his 'girlfriend' (and I use that word loosely in his case) for their entire relationship

and 3) that I can't recover
3) Trust me, you can't. Not without more lies, and even if that works, it will only work once.

V for Victory
2010-02-03, 09:32 PM
What about the pain and suffering that is caused to the other person when they discover the lies?


Not everytime, sometimes you get caught and then you calmly move on.




1) Like I said, I was assuming he didn't want that
2) I'd be pretty shocked if he even knows 5 people who wouldn't be fairly disgusted that he has lied and used his 'girlfriend' (and I use that word loosely in his case) for their entire relationship

3) Trust me, you can't. Not without more lies, and even if that works, it will only work once.

2) I do, it's called highschool
3) who has been doing this more, me or you? I think I can handle myelf

Mando Knight
2010-02-03, 09:33 PM
Interesting philosophical point:

The concept of the Good (not the good) and Truth (not the truth) cannot co-exist. That is not to say that the good thing to do is follow the Truth, for much good can come of it, or that following the Good means you will not tell the truth, for much that is true is Good, but that ultimately?

There are times when the Truth is not a Good thing.

That said, just because the two cannot occupy the same place in the hierarchy of moral obligation does not mean that to follow what is Good you eschew what is true (which is part of the Truth).

Are you certain? What are the grounds for Truth not being able to co-exist with Good? Is it that the Truth is sometimes uncomfortable? Are all things that are Good always pleasant? Is it that the Truth contains knowledge of things that are wrong? What good then is Good if it cannot know and right the wrongs?

Why should Good ever lie? If a relationship is ended by the revelation of a single truth, is it not due to a fault in one of the people? Why would a falsehood be Good? If there is hope in things that do not exist and trust in that which will not fulfill, will it not hurt more when it is revealed at a time when one is depending on it rather than at the beginning, before the person begins to lean on the fragile crutch you hand him?

SensFan
2010-02-03, 09:34 PM
2) I do, it's called highschool
3) who has been doing this more, me or you? I think I can handle myelf
2) I'm less than 2 years removed from HS, don't give me that bull that teens don't care that you are using someone who is deluded into thinking that she is your girlfriend
3) I'd bet I have quite a bit more experience with this sort of thing than you do, actually.

CoffeeIncluded
2010-02-03, 09:34 PM
I'm just going to say this about lying.

The truth will eventually come out. The truth always eventually comes out. You can't lie on the witness stand and you can't lie off it.

What's going to happen to you when the truth comes out? Nobody will ever fully trust you again.

But what's going to happen to her? She just found out that her entire relationship was a lie.

I have been lied to several times in my life. I've been betrayed several times in my life, by people who I considered close friends.

It's changed me, and not in a good way. I want to trust people, but I can't. I've got near-crippling trust issues. I'm paranoid that people secretly hate me and are secretly out to get me. Even with my friends, there's this little niggling doubt in my mind...They say they're my friends, but do they mean it?

I've lost sleep because of this. I've had nightmares because of this. I've gotten sick and ended up in therapy because of this.

I've been lied to and betrayed several times in my life, and it's made it impossible to fully trust anyone as a result. What's it going to do to her?

V for Victory
2010-02-03, 09:39 PM
What's it going to do to her?

That is the best question I heard on this subject.

I don't have an answer for you yet. GREAT debate question though, noone else was even coming close to just putting it out there like that. I appreciate your gall. I will try to think of an answer for you :)

Forever Curious
2010-02-03, 09:39 PM
I'm just going to say this about lying.

The truth will eventually come out. The truth always eventually comes out. You can't lie on the witness stand and you can't lie off it.

What's going to happen to you when the truth comes out? Nobody will ever fully trust you again.

But what's going to happen to her? She just found out that her entire relationship was a lie.

I have been lied to several times in my life. I've been betrayed several times in my life, by people who I considered close friends.

It's changed me, and not in a good way. I want to trust people, but I can't. I've got near-crippling trust issues. I'm paranoid that people secretly hate me and are secretly out to get me. Even with my friends, there's this little niggling doubt in my mind...They say they're my friends, but do they mean it?

I've lost sleep because of this. I've had nightmares because of this. I've gotten sick and ended up in therapy because of this.

I've been lied to and betrayed several times in my life, and it's made it impossible to fully trust anyone as a result. What's it going to do to her?

Good question. Again, you're assuming that, like you, she'll be emotionally crippled by a shattering of trust.

But allow me to reiterate TO EVERYONE: you only know one side of a two-fold story.

Forever Curious
2010-02-03, 09:40 PM
That is the best question I heard on this subject.

I don't have an answer for you yet. GREAT debate question though, noone else was even coming close to just putting it out there like that. I appreciate your gall. I will try to think of an answer for you :)

I second this opinion.

V for Victory
2010-02-03, 09:41 PM
Good question. Again, you're assuming that, like you, she'll be emotionally crippled by a shattering of trust.

But allow me to reiterate TO EVERYONE: you only know one side of a two-fold story.
Sorry you had to repeat yourself man

Forever Curious
2010-02-03, 09:42 PM
I hate it when people don't read my posts and ask me questions I already answered like that. Sorry you had to repeat yourself man

I do what I must because i can.

V for Victory
2010-02-03, 09:42 PM
I do what I must because i can.

...that feels like a quote

Reinholdt
2010-02-03, 09:44 PM
What about the pain and suffering that is caused to the other person when they discover the lies?


Not everytime, sometimes you get caught and then you calmly move on.

So you would just calmly ignore any pain and suffering you personally caused to someone else in order to continue living a happy life of lies?

Well... that explains everything I needed to know.

Tanaric
2010-02-03, 09:46 PM
I doubt this will change V's mind; in truth, I doubt much of his tale of lie-based relationships. If you always tell lies, how do we know this isn't another? The mind boggles. I doubt it will change his mind, but I'll say it anyway.

I have lied, and been lied to, in relationships. The former is something I have come to deeply regret, while the latter has been a big enough roadblock for a "go directly to breakup, do not pass Go, do not collect engagement ring" situation. It is not a good idea. It is, in fact, the very opposite of a good idea.

You think (and this is only positing, I do not claim to know you) that you can get away with your little white lies, or perhaps your grandstanding, as the case may be. You cannot. It always turns out poorly. Always.

Even if your deception is never uncovered by the girl - a big if, mind you - even if it isn't, you have based a relationship off of falsehoods and smoke. This in itself is a terrible idea. This should be a huge red light to anyone who knows you, and there very assuredly are people who hold back in regards to you, who trust you as far as they can throw you. Why you would want this, I don't know.

But worse is what you're doing to yourself. You're building a fantasy world in which you can pretend that whatever you say is true, that nobody will ever find out. Why? The obvious answer is that you are a pathological liar, that getting away with untruths gives you a thrill of some sort. That, or you like the person your lies make you out to be, and you would rather live that life than your own.

I don't claim to be a psychologist, but I have seen the dead end the road you walk leads to. Whether it will be hard on you, it most certainly will be hard on the people who care about you. Whether you yourself care about that hurt is another matter, but one I believe you should think on before you continue with your relationships.

V for Victory
2010-02-03, 09:47 PM
So you would just calmly ignore any pain and suffering you personally caused to someone else in order to continue living a happy life of lies?

Well... that explains everything I needed to know.

If I caused someone that much suffering it's best if I dissapear so that I may become a bad memory and they can move on to find their prince charming or so that they may push themselves to become something new. I am ok with being the bad guy who turns you into a butterfly as long as there is something pretty to come from it

V for Victory
2010-02-03, 10:03 PM
But worse is what you're doing to yourself. You're building a fantasy world in which you can pretend that whatever you say is true, that nobody will ever find out. Why? The obvious answer is that you are a pathological liar, that getting away with untruths gives you a thrill of some sort. That, or you like the person your lies make you out to be, and you would rather live that life than your own.


your quite smart even if you aren't a shrink. Its called compartamentalizing and it is used by people to escape or just section off to deal with later. You can look it up. Now the question is Why do I compartamentalize

RabbitHoleLost
2010-02-03, 10:06 PM
Methinks I smell something fishy.
Most people compartmentalizing don't realize that's what they're doing.

Forever Curious
2010-02-03, 10:08 PM
Methinks I smell something fishy.
Most people compartmentalizing don't realize that's what they're doing.

Case in point.

Lamech
2010-02-03, 10:08 PM
Lying is in pretty much all situations a bad idea. Pretty much everything must be built on trust. People plan things based on what you say. People pin hopes on what one says. People get hurt when they find you lied. And guess what? Its really easy to screw up. Sure if lying about you're thoughts it is a lot easier to get not get caught. (Although then you can start to convince yourself...) But when you start to lie about verifiable facts? Things can go down really fast. It only takes a slip, finding a fact out of place and everything falls down.

And if the truth does come out? People get hurt. People decide they can't trust you. People have their plans ruined. Pretty much always being lied to and then finding the truth is far more painful then just being told the truth.

I'm not going to say the truth always comes out because guess what? Sometimes it doesn't. People get away with lying and cheating and stealing and even killing. Bad people don't always get what they deserve and sometimes good people get what they don't deserve. The world is not just.

Mando Knight
2010-02-03, 10:08 PM
If I caused someone that much suffering it's best if I dissapear so that I may become a bad memory and they can move on to find their prince charming or so that they may push themselves to become something new. I am ok with being the bad guy who turns you into a butterfly as long as there is something pretty to come from it
But what makes them push themselves to become better? The truth. The truth that you likely lied every time you complimented them. The truth that they don't have to settle for someone who lies. The truth that they can work to make things better rather than believing a liar who tells them it already is so. The truth of what is, and the dream of what could be are what build the foundation of growth. They weave together in a double helix, ever pushing into the future. That's Tengen Toppa... that's Gurren Lagann! That's the drill that pierces the heavens!

Truth is like bedrock. It's hard, solid, and hurts when you hit it. But when the bedrock is used as a solid base for your foundation, it will be a steady standing point for what is built on top.

Force
2010-02-03, 10:08 PM
Methinks I smell something fishy.
Most people compartmentalizing don't realize that's what they're doing.

Methinks I smell troll(s).

V for Victory
2010-02-03, 10:10 PM
Methinks I smell something fishy.
Most people compartmentalizing don't realize that's what they're doing.
Oooooooo good catch! Unless i have a shrink or a freind who is one or read an all psychology book and got hit with intern syndrome.

Tanaric
2010-02-03, 10:10 PM
Between the timely defending of what is generally considered indefensible, and the full realization of the problems present, I'm inclined to call this a cry for attention. Normally, I would call it trolling, but that seems to have a different meaning on these boards than most others.

Now the question becomes: why do you want attention from an internet forum so badly?

V for Victory
2010-02-03, 10:12 PM
Methinks I smell troll(s).

I'm no troll sir. I expressed an opinion, was attacked for it and I had a rebuttal. That's a debater

Forever Curious
2010-02-03, 10:14 PM
TO EVERYONE: Let it again be known that it was the posters of this forum that turned a remark into an all out discussion.

Call me a troll, but I simply saw a trend in the discussion and, in typical Devil's advocate fashion, decided to debate on the minority side.

Think what you will, but this is the situation as it stands.

V for Victory
2010-02-03, 10:14 PM
Between the timely defending of what is generally considered indefensible, and the full realization of the problems present, I'm inclined to call this a cry for attention. Normally, I would call it trolling, but that seems to have a different meaning on these boards than most others.

Now the question becomes: why do you want attention from an internet forum so badly?

I'm just replying to peoples comments about my opinion. Its not that I want anything so badly

Tanaric
2010-02-03, 10:18 PM
..it was the posters of this forum that turned a remark into an all out discussion...

Hypothetical situation.

Say I happen to stumble into a thread on an internet forum. This thread happens to help people with certain problems. I then proceed to offer advice contrary to what (nearly) everyone else in that thread thinks, and which I admit myself is not a good idea for everyone to try.

What am I supposed to expect to happen?

Forever Curious
2010-02-03, 10:20 PM
Hypothetical situation.

Say I happen to stumble into a thread on an internet forum. This thread happens to help people with certain problems. I then proceed to offer advice contrary to what everyone else in that thread thinks, and which I admit myself is not a good idea for everyone to try.

What am I supposed to expect to happen?

Not be called a troll for expressing your opinion, for one thing :smalltongue:

SensFan
2010-02-03, 10:22 PM
Actually, on a related subject, I just realized this is the ideal place to get some advice, as I'm in a bit of a bind.

I've liked this one girl for a couple months now or so, and have gone from 'one or two sentences each when we see eachother' to the point where I've gotten to know her quite a bit more, and have been getting increasing signals that she might like me too. As I see her almost solely on weekends at the varsity games on campus, I had been planning on chatting with her a bunch on saturday and asking her out. So far so good.

A week or so ago, my uncle whom I was very close to passed away. After a question based on my Facebook status, I told this girl about the situation, and she has (understandably) been incredibly sympathetic towards me since, which isn't anything out of the ordinary for someone who is becoming an increasingly good friend, and while it's obviously appreciated, it puts me in a tough spot. I should mention here that the varsity team was on the road last weekend, so the only time I've seen her since this happened was in passing in the hallway today.

This brings me to the problem. I still very much would be interested in asking her out this weekend, but I'm not sure if the passing of my uncle complicates things or not. Given that (as anyone who has read my posts in the previous topics will know) I'm rather shy when it comes to this sort of thing, its been several weeks of getting to know her before I was ready to make a move, and so I'm now wondering if she might think I'm just trying to use her sympathies towards me about my uncle to my advantage somehow or something.

Am I overthinking this?

Forever Curious
2010-02-03, 10:26 PM
Actually, on a related subject, I just realized this is the ideal place to get some advice, as I'm in a bit of a bind.

I've liked this one girl for a couple months now or so, and have gone from 'one or two sentences each when we see eachother' to the point where I've gotten to know her quite a bit more, and have been getting increasing signals that she might like me too. As I see her almost solely on weekends at the varsity games on campus, I had been planning on chatting with her a bunch on saturday and asking her out. So far so good.

A week or so ago, my uncle whom I was very close to passed away. After a question based on my Facebook status, I told this girl about the situation, and she has (understandably) been incredibly sympathetic towards me since, which isn't anything out of the ordinary for someone who is becoming an increasingly good friend, and while it's obviously appreciated, it puts me in a tough spot. I should mention here that the varsity team was on the road last weekend, so the only time I've seen her since this happened was in passing in the hallway today.

This brings me to the problem. I still very much would be interested in asking her out this weekend, but I'm not sure if the passing of my uncle complicates things or not. Given that (as anyone who has read my posts in the previous topics will know) I'm rather shy when it comes to this sort of thing, its been several weeks of getting to know her before I was ready to make a move, and so I'm now wondering if she might think I'm just trying to use her sympathies towards me about my uncle to my advantage somehow or something.

Am I overthinking this?

I would think you are over-thinking it, but understandably so.

If you're truly that concerned, then just wait a bit before making the move. Don't really have much to lose if you do (assuming she does fancy you) and it will help confirm you aren't being opportunistic.

V for Victory
2010-02-03, 10:27 PM
Actually, on a related subject, I just realized this is the ideal place to get some advice, as I'm in a bit of a bind.

I've liked this one girl for a couple months now or so, and have gone from 'one or two sentences each when we see eachother' to the point where I've gotten to know her quite a bit more, and have been getting increasing signals that she might like me too. As I see her almost solely on weekends at the varsity games on campus, I had been planning on chatting with her a bunch on saturday and asking her out. So far so good.

A week or so ago, my uncle whom I was very close to passed away. After a question based on my Facebook status, I told this girl about the situation, and she has (understandably) been incredibly sympathetic towards me since, which isn't anything out of the ordinary for someone who is becoming an increasingly good friend, and while it's obviously appreciated, it puts me in a tough spot. I should mention here that the varsity team was on the road last weekend, so the only time I've seen her since this happened was in passing in the hallway today.

This brings me to the problem. I still very much would be interested in asking her out this weekend, but I'm not sure if the passing of my uncle complicates things or not. Given that (as anyone who has read my posts in the previous topics will know) I'm rather shy when it comes to this sort of thing, its been several weeks of getting to know her before I was ready to make a move, and so I'm now wondering if she might think I'm just trying to use her sympathies towards me about my uncle to my advantage somehow or something.

Am I overthinking this?

I don't think your overthinking it. Death is a tricky social situation. Esspecially since here affection and sympathy may be confused

RabbitHoleLost
2010-02-03, 10:28 PM
SensFan: I think you're slightly over-thinking the situation. I don't believe this girl would think you were using her sympathies, but she might think that in your grief, you've come to depend on her.
That's not very likely, but I thought I'd throw it out there just in case.

SensFan
2010-02-03, 10:29 PM
To clarify:

*I noticed that she may like me before the family situation happened
*I really do lose something by waiting. I virtually only see her at the volleyball games, and Sat/Sun are the last home games of the season. If I don't ask her out then, it comes down to doing it via Facebook or if I happen to randomly run into her in the hall at school and we end up having a conversation.

Edit after seeing Rabbit's post:
Lol, that actually made me laugh. Nothing personal, of course, since you don't know this, but I've been told by several friends that at this point she would have to be the most ignorant person in the world not to realize I almost certainly like her. Apparently I haven't been very subtle... :smallwink:

Tanaric
2010-02-03, 10:30 PM
While I see no problems with asking her out on a date, Sens, you should ask yourself whether you're currently pursuing her as a romantic interest or for company to help ease the pain of your uncle's passing. The two are not mutually exclusive, but it's very easy to get one confused with the other when you're grieving the loss of someone you care for.

Once you have that sorted out, go for it, I say.

Serpentine
2010-02-03, 10:32 PM
To be fair, we're only hearing half of a two-fold story. So...That makes it even worse, because we're only hearing his side of the story, which presumably means he's putting himself in a better light than the other party would. That's... quite scary, actually.

I have a question for you, V: Do you, in fact, actually care for this person as more than a source of your own gratification? Because nothing I've read here so far even suggests that.
The fact is, your behaviour is likely, even probable, to cause someone a great deal of hurt - someone, above question pending, you presumably "care" about - yet you do not give a flying fruitcake about that. All you care about is yourself, and your girlfriend appears to be nothing but a tool to that end. In my, and many other's, moralities, that makes you a Bad Person. In fact, isn't that part of sociopathy or something?

V for Victory
2010-02-03, 10:32 PM
If there is a deadline that changes everything! Go for it Sens!

RabbitHoleLost
2010-02-03, 10:33 PM
Edit after seeing Rabbit's post:
Lol, that actually made me laugh. Nothing personal, of course, since you don't know this, but I've been told by several friends that at this point she would have to be the most ignorant person in the world not to realize I almost certainly like her. Apparently I haven't been very subtle... :smallwink:

Then I don't see a reason why you shouldn't ask her out :smallsmile:

Rauthiss
2010-02-03, 10:33 PM
In the end, what's the worst that can happen? She denies you, and you're back where you are now. Any other fallout is meaningless, really. Ask her out.

Forever Curious
2010-02-03, 10:34 PM
To clarify:

*I noticed that she may like me before the family situation happened
*I really do lose something by waiting. I virtually only see her at the volleyball games, and Sat/Sun are the last home games of the season. If I don't ask her out then, it comes down to doing it via Facebook or if I happen to randomly run into her in the hall at school and we end up having a conversation.

Edit after seeing Rabbit's post:
Lol, that actually made me laugh. Nothing personal, of course, since you don't know this, but I've been told by several friends that at this point she would have to be the most ignorant person in the world not to realize I almost certainly like her. Apparently I haven't been very subtle... :smallwink:

Oh, then disregard my post. If time is of the essence, make no delay.

Mando Knight
2010-02-03, 10:34 PM
You're probably overthinking it. Don't let your uncle's death cow you into backing off from your plan, don't rely on tragedy as a crutch to keep her close, don't try too hard to assure her you're not using her sympathy as a crutch, and don't miss your opportunity.

Syka
2010-02-03, 11:12 PM
Methinks I smell something fishy.
Most people compartmentalizing don't realize that's what they're doing.

I'm actually the queen of compartmentalizing, and I always know when I'm doing it. It allows me to deal with stuff in manageable bits rather than all at once, leading to a potential interruption of daily life activities. It's handy, actually.


V, you have every right to lie. If both parties are aware of how the other feels on lying, that is fine. HOWEVER, if you are in a relationship with someone who expects honesty, than lying is inappropriate (and the relationship should end so both parties can find a suitable partner).

Not everyone has an ideal world. I certainly do not.

If you were to lie to me, thinking that I had this image of having a boyfriend et al., that would piss me off. Not just the lying but the assuming to know what I would prefer. I PREFER to live a life where secrets are not kept from those close to me and who do the same for me (except some obvious ones, like my mom doesn't need to know about what's going on in my bedroom, etc.). I do not want to be 'spared' so that my 'dream world' is maintained. I don't need a partner, or offspring, or anything like that. I want to be happy based off of a world of truth. Ignorance is not bliss for me...probably one reason why I aspire to be an academic.

I have been in situations more than once to know something unsavory, and every time I've chosen the truth. Has it hurt? Like hell. But I maintained respect for the people in question, and it made me better in the long run. I've even remained friends with those with whom this has happened.

Yet when I know people have lied, usually to others, I distance myself drastically from them. I don't trust them not to do it with me, so I remove them from my life.


tl;dr: Lie if you want, but at least respect people enough to let them know and allow them to determine what they do and do not want in their life. I do know people who'd rather live 'not knowing' than know the truth, but not everyone feels that way.


Also, using people isn't always bad. I used the last guy I dated; he used me. If you want to get technical anyway. But both of us knew exactly what we were and didn't expect anything more. It ended amicably.


Sens, go for it. Seeing as it's been obvious previously, I wouldn't worry about her thinking your leaning on her or something.

Koury
2010-02-03, 11:51 PM
So, of all times for her to do it, ex-girlfriend contacted me yesterday.

I mean, kinda. She sent me a message. I have no desire to talk to her, not even to tell her to go away. I want to stay as far away as possible.

So I deleted it an went about my business. Then she sent me another one because she saw I just read it and didn't respond. Well, I did the same thing.

And in most cases I'd not really even have a problem doing this. But shes contacting me because she needs to know information from back when we lived together so she can figure out about getting a new place. Thats not exactly a bad reason.

But I don't care. She could go to the place and get the info herself. She is asking me for it (most of which I don't even have) because every time she has ever talked to the manager people shes ended up in some huge argument. Every time. Partly because they really ARE just dumb people and partly because ex has temper issues.

Anyway, so am I wrong here for trying to avoid her at all costs?

(Also, three days into my job search and I may have found something already. Only 21-27 hours (yeah, weird) and like 9/hr but whatever.)

Tarnag40k
2010-02-03, 11:55 PM
So, of all times for her to do it, ex-girlfriend contacted me yesterday.

I mean, kinda. She sent me a message. I have no desire to talk to her, not even to tell her to go away. I want to stay as far away as possible.

So I deleted it an went about my business. Then she sent me another one because she saw I just read it and didn't respond. Well, I did the same thing.

And in most cases I'd not really even have a problem doing this. But shes contacting me because she needs to know information from back when we lived together so she can figure out about getting a new place. Thats not exactly a bad reason.

But I don't care. She could go to the place and get the info herself. She is asking me for it (most of which I don't even have) because every time she has ever talked to the manager people shes ended up in some huge argument. Every time. Partly because they really ARE just dumb people and partly because ex has temper issues.

Anyway, so am I wrong here for trying to avoid her at all costs?

(Also, three days into my job search and I may have found something already. Only 21-27 hours (yeah, weird) and like 9/hr but whatever.)
No it's her problem because she doesn't know when to act in a diplomatic matter with the right people. Easiest way to get rid of her, remind her you think she is a (insert any discriminatory disgusting insulting and down right despicable noun here) and that you don't want to hear from her again, in fact you'd prefer to forget she even existed. It works 60% of the time, every time.

Syka
2010-02-03, 11:57 PM
Nope, not weird. I told my ex to back off twice (as in, outright telling him to never contact me again), and if he were to try and contact me again, I'd not respond. Hell, I thought he was calling once (the number was his home area code, and I don't know anyone else from there), and let it go to my voicemail.

I think you're being reasonable, especially if she can get the info elsewhere (although, many would view it as polite to at least tell her you don't want to have contact, after prolonged non-contact I don't think it's necessary).

ETA: That's something! I got hired as part-time at Walgreens (only 7.75 an hour :() yet, immediately, I was working full time (usually 35-37 hours per week). I've had to FIGHT to get my hours down to part time, practically; everyone else who works there works full or near full-time. You really never know. I've found if you let them know "my availability is always" and you come in when called on days off (assuming no other plans), you'll get as many hours as they can give.

Koury
2010-02-03, 11:58 PM
No it's her problem because she doesn't know when to act in a diplomatic matter with the right people. Easiest way to get rid of her, remind her you think she is a (insert any discriminatory disgusting insulting and down right despicable noun here) and that you don't want to hear from her again, in fact you'd prefer to forget she even existed. It works 60% of the time, every time.

But, I mean, I care about her. I want good things for her and I want her to find whatever it is shes looking for.

I just have no desire to hear about it or help her or really be in the same state as her.

Syka
2010-02-04, 12:01 AM
But, I mean, I care about her. I want good things for her and I want her to find whatever it is shes looking for.

I just have no desire to hear about it or help her or really be in the same state as her.

Still makes sense, as such I suggest maintaining non-contact. It's undoubtedly healthier for the both of you.

Koury
2010-02-04, 12:03 AM
I think you're being reasonable, especially if she can get the info elsewhere (although, many would view it as polite to at least tell her you don't want to have contact, after prolonged non-contact I don't think it's necessary).

This has been made clear. Since it was made clear I have contacted her twice.

Once because she stole my gmail account out of the blue (and has not returned it. I know it could have technically been someone else, but it simply wasn't. I lost the account after she deleted my myspace. Coincidence? No)

And once on Christmas I sent her a "Merry Christmas" That was all the message said.

Koury
2010-02-04, 12:04 AM
Still makes sense, as such I suggest maintaining non-contact. It's undoubtedly healthier for the both of you.

So what do I do if/when she shows up?

Syka
2010-02-04, 12:10 AM
So what do I do if/when she shows up?

At your door? Do what I do when getting an unexpected visitor! Sit still and remain quite until they leave. Haha, seriously, that's what we do when we don't know someone is dropping by. Anyone we know would call before coming over, including neighbors.

If she accosts you in a public place, say you don't want to talk to her. If she persists, tell her you'll call the cops because she's harassing you ('cause, well, she is...).

Koury
2010-02-04, 12:14 AM
At your door? Do what I do when getting an unexpected visitor! Sit still and remain quite until they leave. Haha, seriously, that's what we do when we don't know someone is dropping by. Anyone we know would call before coming over, including neighbors.

If she accosts you in a public place, say you don't want to talk to her. If she persists, tell her you'll call the cops because she's harassing you ('cause, well, she is...).

I don't live by myself. Nor do I live with quite people (almost-3yr old). Someone will answer the door should she come over (and shes only like 6 miles away. Plus, as far as I was last aware, I live directly between her place of work and her home. So its not even out of her way.).

I don't know. I just hope she doesn't come over.