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Sliver
2010-01-26, 05:18 AM
Alright, so I know somebody that requested me to DM for him.. He is engaged and wants to hook her on RPing but never DMed before, so he wants me to DM for them and hope she likes it. I'm not that expirienced in actual DMing, but am pretty decent compared to those I played with (in Israel that is.. People here are afraid of actual mechanics and reading I'm afraid..)

Anyway, here is the situation: She wants to be an archer, and he wants to try out a cleric. She doesn't know anything about D&D and he doesn't know much either, so I said let them make level 1 characters, standard style, and I will just lower the risk by random crits and they will fight off weak monsters.. But I have a problem.. A few actually:

She wants to be an archer. He wants her to fall in love in the game so he will have someone to play with forever.. I heard the stories about things like that ending badly for others, but that is not my issue.. Archer, level 1, she will have nothing exiting to do in battle! But she is quite fixated about it, and with the fact that he wanted to do stuff like duel wielding katanas and be good at it (at level 1..) I'm not sure he knows what level 1 is so he probably couldn't even explain that to her..

The other point is, I asked him a couple of times what interests her so I could make something up that will fit her taste, but he either didn't answer the question or said something like "Do whatever you want.." and "I trust you". Great. Such help that is.

So last time we talked (this is all through IRC) he told me I can up the level but risk them not understanding it all and some other unhelpful stuff, so I told him that this game going well is in his interest and I'm not really going to do it if he is just going to shove all the responsibility into my hands and whistle.. Rephrased..

I only started talking to him because he was trying to gather a group of players. He didn't find any except me and then decided to scrap it all and ask me to DM for them. I have no attechment to this game and I am actually doing him a favor, so I don't think I should be the one running around caring for everything for someone I am never going to actually meet and probably won't even play with after that..

This is not just a rant and I'm not just seeking someone to tell me I'm right.. I want you to advise me, what I should do here?

Simba
2010-01-26, 05:44 AM
For humans it might actually work at level 1 (TWF + Exotic Weapon proficiency // Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot), if you go with flaws you have even more options. Just make it clear to them that level 1 means they are newbie adventurers. Send them the right monsters, let those monsters act in a way that lets the players have fun and go with that. Let them have some fun, learn the ropes and get a feel for their characters, then slowly but steadily make the encounters more challenging.

Iceforge
2010-01-26, 05:48 AM
Well, there are several possibilities.

The first decision you need to make, is if you are going to be running a game with them or not. From the sound of your topic, I get the feeling that option B is not really an option that you are considering; You seem like you are going to be running this, even if he sort of tricked you into it.

If you accept to run the game for them, you accept the responsibility to make her like the game; You might not like that responsibility, but in my eyes, if you agree to DM, even slightly involuntarily, then you get the responsibility to make the game enjoyable for the players.

Judging from what she wants to do with her character (being an archer, dual-weilding katana's, and so on), she is NOT going to enjoy being level 1.

With an experienced player, you can expect them to "tough it up", as they can always develop to the point they want; For a first time player, you need to adjust the starting of the game, so the game is enjoyable for the players right off the bat, so you can get them hooked on the game.

The problem here is your preconceived notion that the game is easier to learn if you are level 1.

Seeing as they both know little about the system, I am going to assume you are also going to be aiding a lot in character creation, so saying they have to be level 1 for simplicity is a cheap excuse to me; You can easily build a character that is easy to play at almost any level, as long as they are not going heavy casting builds.

At least, the above is true for DnD 3.5, If you are playing 4th edition, I have absolutely no way to help you, but if you are playing DnD 3.5, then you could easily make them at least level 4, which will make them more tough, give them better things to do in combat.

Playing a 4th level 3.5 Ranger with a bow, a katana and a short sword, is not really rocket science; you only need to explain the basic mechanics, just as if they was level 1, and she will be able to do more with her bow and in melee.

Put them up against weak CR1-CR2 monsters in the start (orcs and goblins are all time favourits for new players, and can be scaled up easily for future encounters being fitting (goblin warriors with ride/mounted combat mounted on worgs are pretty tough to battle))

ZeroNumerous
2010-01-26, 05:58 AM
So, what you're saying is this: "I am going to be DMing a game for a group of two who want to do things not usually considered fun by the rules. How do I help them within the rules?"

My question is: "Why bother staying within the rules?"

She wants to play archery? Cool. Give her something like sneak attack without the pesky flat-footed requirements to make up for her low damage. He wants to dual-wield katanas? Ok, then waiver the dual-wielding accuracy penalties. That means he only takes a -2 for using an inappropriately sized weapon in his off-hand.

You're the DM. The rules are malleable and you certainly don't have to jump through hoops to play within them.

Sliver
2010-01-26, 06:04 AM
If you accept to run the game for them, you accept the responsibility to make her like the game; You might not like that responsibility, but in my eyes, if you agree to DM, even slightly involuntarily, then you get the responsibility to make the game enjoyable for the players.

I didn't shake off any responsibility. I said that I need to know what she thinks that she will find enjoyable in a game, to know how to make it fun for them.


Judging from what she wants to do with her character (being an archer, dual-weilding katana's, and so on), she is NOT going to enjoy being level 1.

He was the one wanting to duel wield katanas, she is focused on holding a bow and not more then that.


The problem here is your preconceived notion that the game is easier to learn if you are level 1.

I said nothing like that. If a player tells you "We will not understand much if we start play at that level (4th) but you can try...", it doesn't give a good impression. I prefer level 4 as a starting level, and tried to explain a couple of times to him that level 1 isn't really as impressive as he thinks it is. It didn't work.


Seeing as they both know little about the system, I am going to assume you are also going to be aiding a lot in character creation, so saying they have to be level 1 for simplicity is a cheap excuse to me; You can easily build a character that is easy to play at almost any level, as long as they are not going heavy casting builds.

Cheap excuse nothing. As he is actually with her and I never talked to her, he said he will be making her character together with her, and he doesn't know much more then the basic rules. I specifically said I have other stuff on my mind and won't just sit around and make their characters. We hardly communicate.


Put them up against weak CR1-CR2 monsters in the start (orcs and goblins are all time favourits for new players, and can be scaled up easily for future encounters being fitting (goblin warriors with ride/mounted combat mounted on worgs are pretty tough to battle))

CR1 or 2 monsters for 2 level 1 newbi players at the start doesn't seem like a good option to me.


My question is: "Why bother staying within the rules?"

Because he asked me to DM them a D&D 3.5e game level 1 and when I tried to explain to him that it isn't as powerful as he seems to believe, it really didn't help?


His (the "experienced" player's) views of D&D are quite unique, as he was surprised when I told him about an option called re-fluffing.. So yeah, I tried to explain to him that level 1 doesn't work like he thinks it is, and that archery is hardly an exiting option at that level and that by the rules duel wielding katana's isn't going to work that much for him, and you know what? He wants to try out a cleric, but that is the only thing that changed.

Hallavast
2010-01-26, 06:22 AM
...

If you don't care about the game, then you shouldn't bother DMing. Make a decision whether or not to play with these folks. If you decide on going through with it, then give my below comments a read.

I'm going to make a few general assumptions and guess that she's a fairly typical non-gamer who's never played before. Don't bore her with the rules. The system is a lot to take in the first time you play, and if she's only trying it out to appease him, then she'll likely become disinterested very quickly if the rules seem overwhelmingly complicated.

The obvious solution to this problem is this: Keep combat short and simple. The first combats you run with any new player shouldn't be longer than a few rounds. This means if the players MUST fight something the first game session, don't use more than 4 1 hit-die monsters or 1 2 hit die monster. The whole encounter should be over within 20 minutes or so (real time). Don't get bogged down with the math or complex rules like grappling or mounted combat. Just give the players a taste of how the game works. Honestly, character build should be a secondary concern.

Additionally, try to get a feel for what kind of genre she likes to play and pander to that kind of feel in your game. You don't have to change your setting completely, but if the new players like, for example, mystery thrillers, try out a "whodunnit" murder mystery for the first adventure. Play up the mystery and intrigue with roleplaying.

Further, try having the players create a "group template". A general reason for each character to be together and share common goals is typically much preffered over the "you all meet in a tavern" scenario. Get new players involved with their characters by helping them fit a backstory into the campaign. Then once play starts, engage these backstories with plothooks to further draw in your players.

What I've advised obviously fits a roleplay-heavy, story/character driven game. If you prefer a dungeon crawly, kick in the door game, then what i've said will not help you much. If that's the case, try putting in some undead so she can turn them or something. >.>

Sliver
2010-01-26, 06:26 AM
Thank you Hallavast. Thing is, he won't tell me what she is into, and that is one of main main concerns...


The other point is, I asked him a couple of times what interests her so I could make something up that will fit her taste, but he either didn't answer the question or said something like "Do whatever you want.." and "I trust you". Great. Such help that is.

Iceforge
2010-01-26, 06:28 AM
I didn't shake off any responsibility. I said that I need to know what she thinks that she will find enjoyable in a game, to know how to make it fun for them.

As I said, that is my opinion; I don't agree to GM for anyone unless I am willing to accept that responsibility


He was the one wanting to duel wield katanas, she is focused on holding a bow and not more then that.
My bad, I misunderstood then, I thought he wanted to play a cleric?


I said nothing like that. If a player tells you "We will not understand much if we start play at that level (4th) but you can try...", it doesn't give a good impression. I prefer level 4 as a starting level, and tried to explain a couple of times to him that level 1 isn't really as impressive as he thinks it is. It didn't work.

Again, when I read your post, it came off as it was you who wanted them to be level 1, not them who wanted to be level 1. In that case, you should just flat-out say "I am the one who knows the system the best, and it is easier to learn if you do not start at level 1", if your superiority in knowledge of the system is not questionable, he can't quesiton that.


Cheap excuse nothing. As he is actually with her and I never talked to her, he said he will be making her character together with her, and he doesn't know much more then the basic rules. I specifically said I have other stuff on my mind and won't just sit around and make their characters. We hardly communicate.

Alright, fine, but you must read that part in the context of me misunderstanding and thinking you was the one who wanted level 1; From how I read your post, it seemed you was the one making them level 1 (which wasn't the case) and it seemed like your justification for this was "it is easier to learn that way", again, I clearly misunderstood you then, as you pointed out


CR1 or 2 monsters for 2 level 1 newbi players at the start doesn't seem like a good option to me.

Come on, don't be bloody stupid now, I just told you to make them level 4, so why on earth would you even for a moment think I meant CR1 and CR2 monsters IF THEY ARE LEVEL 1, and not CR1 and CR2 monsters against them as level 4?



Anyway, talk to the guy, and tell him "Either we can play the game as you want; You and your wife/girlfriend will be level 1, as you want, with characters designed how you want and so on, OR we can play a game that will actually be fun for your wife/girlfriend and that will have a chance to make her want to play again; As level 1 archer, she is just going to be frustrated of how little she can do in this system and how much time she spends rolling a dice, announcing her 'i hit AC X' and me telling her 'sorry, you missed' which isn't very fun for her"

Sliver
2010-01-26, 06:34 AM
"Don't be bloody stupid" is a bit of over-reacting, don't you think?

Anyway, what options a core archer at level 4 will have? I'm talking beyond having a higher to hit or more attacks. I don't know the person and he won't tell me anything about what might be interesting for her..

Magnor Criol
2010-01-26, 06:34 AM
I'm not certain it'll be as bad for her as you seem to think it'll be. I played an archer from level 1 several times and quite enjoyed myself. Then again, that could be just me.

In my experience the main thing that hooks people into playing and makes them want to keep playing isn't what their characters are doing in the game; it's how much fun their having with friends while playing that game. Keep things lighthearted and fun, and even if her character isn't excelling, then I think she'll enjoy herself. After all, it's about hanging out with friends.

This is assuming that there's not optimizers in the group who will overshadow the whole party or something; not being too effective or versatile is one thing, and easily overcome by having fun with friends. But the game turning into a one-man show or something turns things sour pretty quick. But, that's a risk no matter what the situation is.

Sliver
2010-01-26, 06:36 AM
I'm DMing for 2 players I don't know through MSN. There will be hardly any hanging out with friends..

kamikasei
2010-01-26, 06:39 AM
I'd tell the guy to get stuffed to be honest. Or if you don't have the time or don't care enough* to talk about the game and characters with *both* players, then just let him build their characters as he apparently wants to and you give them a bog-standard goblin hunt or dungeon crawl; if it doesn't catch her interest, it's his problem, not yours.

*Not a condemnation - you're being asked to do a favour, you don't have a stake. I would be inclined to say it's better to say no straight out than to take on a job you can't give full attention to, though.

edit: Hang on, is this guy even a friend? Or just some randomer? It's starting to sound more and more like considerable presumption on his part.

Hallavast
2010-01-26, 06:42 AM
Thank you Hallavast. Thing is, he won't tell me what she is into, and that is one of main main concerns...

Hmm... Then I would suggest setting the first session aside to determine these things. Instead of taking a shot in the dark at what might be fun for somebody who may or may not have a grasp of the basic mechanic the first time, try asking questions about the kind of game/story they want to play in.

Priorities may include:

-Introducing them both to the core mechanic and how combat rounds work

-Introducing her to Roleplaying games in general. Advise her that it's a setting for a fantasy story, and she's the main character. Make sure she understands that the game isn't linear like a board game and so forth.

-Getting a feel for what kind of fiction she enjoys in movies/novels/television/videogames and so on. Ask her direct questions about what her favorite fantasy/sci-fi/actionadventure fiction is, and ask her about her favorite parts of those stories. Draw inspiration from the answers she gives you.

-Making sure everyone has a proper character to play in the game.

-Going through a practice combat to let everyone get the feel of how such encounters will go and to refresh the rules in case players have questions.

-Going over the "group template". How do the characters know each other, and what are some of their common goals? Why are they going to risk their lives for each other? What are the backgrounds of each character and how could they tie into the story?

kamikasei
2010-01-26, 06:46 AM
Hallavast has good suggestions. Let me add a more basic one:

Talk to the girl yourself. Don't let one of your players act as gatekeeper to the other. If you DM for them you need to be able to talk to both of them about what they want and how they want to achieve it.

Sliver
2010-01-26, 06:52 AM
I guess "Try to talk to her" should have been the first thing that came to my mind when I got nothing from him..

Dyllan
2010-01-26, 07:07 AM
My suggestion? Tell him no. And suggest he doesn't try to get someone else to do this either.

Getting a non gamer into D&D is hard to start with. He's trying to do it over the internet, with a DM that he doesn't know, and who doesn't have a personal investment in it working out. He's setting himself up for failure.

He will likely get one chance to show her D&D. If she doesn't like it, she likely will not play again. Does he really want his one chance to be so handicapped against him? He's much better off waiting until he can find an in-person game, and preferably do it with people they both know. If she's "the one" for him, it's worth waiting for.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-01-26, 07:09 AM
It may be that you're not getting much help from these players in terms of what they want the game to be like because they don't really know enough about D&D to know what they like in it. I suggest you keep it simple, light on the mechanics and focused on straightforward decision making.

Another point: if she's just now learning the system, deciding who to attack might be just about enough complexity for combat. If she plays, say, a level 1 ranger, over the course of the session she can utilize her rather impressive skill set, tracking, and wild empathy. So long as combat is short, like Hallavast suggested, the repetition of the "I fire an arrow" round might be a learning experience instead of a boring one.

2xMachina
2010-01-26, 07:46 AM
Focus more on the Roleplaying aspect? That can be pretty fun too.

Eldariel
2010-01-26, 08:01 AM
Archer can be respectable. Make it a Ranger or a Rogue and pick up PBS+Precise for Ranger, PBS+Rapid for a Rogue. Either way, with decent Hide & Move Silently, things can work out just fine. On level 6, a Ranger would get Manyshot; admittedly, before then you don't have many options. And even after then, they're sharply limited, but she'll be alright. I'd probably go Ranger; Rogue tends to be less forgiving as far as playing goes.

And for the Cleric, honestly, just let him pick up Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (level 1 TWF+OTWF, pick up a War-deity with Katana). And point him towards few handy buffs. Cleric actually TWFs quite alright given the stats since Divine Favor applies to both weapons as do most other Cleric-buffs. Might want to start him off with a light+one-handed combo if you can't fit a deity for his needs.

Sindriss
2010-01-26, 08:08 AM
My suggestion? Tell him no. And suggest he doesn't try to get someone else to do this either.

Getting a non gamer into D&D is hard to start with. He's trying to do it over the internet, with a DM that he doesn't know, and who doesn't have a personal investment in it working out. He's setting himself up for failure.

He will likely get one chance to show her D&D. If she doesn't like it, she likely will not play again. Does he really want his one chance to be so handicapped against him? He's much better off waiting until he can find an in-person game, and preferably do it with people they both know. If she's "the one" for him, it's worth waiting for.

Completely agree, I get the feeling that you aren't really motivated to do this in which case you shouldn't do it and just tell him sorry, but no can do.

wormwood
2010-01-26, 09:02 AM
I recommend you switch them from D&D to something simpler for her first game. D&D 3.5 is a bit rules-heavy for most people starting out. Suggest to them that you use a different system that will allow them to make the characters they want and keep the dice rolls to a minimum, while still getting the fantasy flavor they are looking for. I would recommend Savage Worlds or something similar... I'm sure the playground can provide other suggestions for simpler rule sets.

There are easier ways to introduce folks to roleplaying than D&D 3.5.

dariathalon
2010-01-26, 09:19 AM
I admit, I have to agree with much of what's been said here. However, I do not agree with starting above level 1, if they aren't comfortable with it. Something tells me that this guy isn't as knowledgeable as he claims to be, and saying that they might get confused above level 1 means that this is a real concern. Don't add greater stress to the game. This is supposed to be a fun activity, not a stressful one. While having a little more power and a few more options can be fun, the added options are just more for them to learn. There's nothing stopping you from leveling them quickly if it turns out they can handle additional options/rules.

A couple of other ideas...
1. Give her a pet, maybe a dog. My guess for the god, if she wants an archery based cleric, would be Ehlonna, so a pet fits perfectly. That'll give her a bit more to do in combat, you can handle the rolls and things for it (unless she really wants to), but let her decide what she tells it to do.

2. Maybe her goddess gives her a few bunches of special arrows to assist with some sort of holy quest. Giving her say 10 each of shock arrows, holy arrows and something else cool... burrowing arrows maybe, brings in a bit more of the research management element of the game. Stress to her that she won't have enough magic arrows to use those indefinitely, so pulling one out should be a special occasion.

3. Give him something fun to do too. The game may be about introducing her to the game and making it a fun experience for her, but remember that her seeing him having fun could help her to relax and have fun too.

4. Focus on the roleplaying. Female roleplayers are a rare breed, and in my experience roleplaying is the part of the game that most enjoy the most. Find as many opportunities to pull this back into the game as you can. Even in combat situations, give them intelligent foes to face. If the battle is going their way, have the opponent brag and be full of bravado (its more fun to knock them down a peg that way.) As the battle turns against them maybe the foes try to surrender.

Edit: Sorry, I thought she wanted to be the cleric instead of him. Most of the advice could still apply, just in a little different way. I'm to lazy to go back and change it all, so I'll leave it up to you to figure out how to adjust the advice if you think its helpful to your game.

Fitz10019
2010-01-26, 09:35 AM
Roll PBS into Precise Shot and give it to the archer. Make her a ranger or a scout so she has interesting skills. Find out if she wants to be an Elf (this is common among archery-fixated newbs).

Let the guy dual wield katanas -- just use the stats of short swords.

Shademan
2010-01-26, 09:44 AM
mh....how about using another system? Mutants and Masterminds works well for being a badass archer and ...*twitch* gn....dual-wielding katanas.
Aaaand it can be used for fantasy playing. to some extent. and not too hard to learn.

Xenogears
2010-01-26, 10:04 AM
I'd definately say the player is better off waiting till he can find an IRL game as opposed to over the internet. You might want to tell him he should learn enough of the rules to DM, find some people he (and more importantly his love interest) are already friends with who are willing to try DnD out, and run a game for them instead. Learning DnD by playing a game over the internet being run by someone you don't know/don't know well doesn't sound fun and is likely to turn her off of DnD.

Mark Hall
2010-01-26, 12:56 PM
Simplest suggestion I can make is start them higher than 1st level. If you start at 3rd level, most characters have 2 feats, humans have 3, and some classes will give you 4 or 5 (human ranger will have 6 at 3rd level). That makes them more competent, and therefore more able to keep with their ideas.

Sipex
2010-01-26, 01:06 PM
My opinion.

Play 4th edition. If she's a ranger she can do both archery and dual wielding and be decent at both. Put them at level 3 and she'll have enough options to keep happy.

Yakk
2010-01-26, 01:17 PM
Pull out basic D&D.

No, really. Keep it really simple.

Both characters might be fighters. One might have a bow, a katana, and a high dex, the other a katana and a wakazashi (longsword with offhand shortsword).

They are travelling leaderless samurai, their leader having released his followers and killed himself over a matter of honour. They are low on money, but unwilling to beg, borrow or steal.

They come across a small village, who asks for their help -- some goblin bandits are holed up nearby, and are taking their food. They can offer food in payment.

At the bottom of the cave, there are some skellitons behind a locked and sealed door. Guarded by those skellitons, there is an ancient tomb, with a magic bow and katana in it.

When they pick up the magic weapons, the weapons whisper to them, and ask for a favour...

which leads to the next adventure.

...

Mechanics wise, we are talking really simple D&D. Stripped down. You have HP, you deal damage, etc.

The dual-wielder gets to make a parry attack once/round with the offhand weapon -- an opposed attack against the attacker's roll. If it lands, the attack is blocked. Plus, when they make a crit with the mainhand attack, they get a free attack with the offhand weapon.

The archer has two special techniques. She can shoot 2 arrows in one action for a -1 penalty to hit. She can take careful aim, and roll 3 times for a single arrow in one action (taking the best result).

Stats:
Melee:
Str: 16 (+3)
Con: 14 (+2)
Dex: 12 (+1)
Int: 14 (+2)
Wis: 8 (-1)
Cha: 10

HP: 21 = 14 con + (5+2) level
AC: 18 = 10 + 5 armor + 1 dex + 1 parry-sword + 1 level
Attack: +4 Sword/1d8+3, +2 Bow/1d8+1
Short Sword: +4/1d6+3

Archer:
Str: 14 (+2)
Con: 10
Dex: 16 (+3)
Int: 10
Wis: 13 (+1)
Cha: 14 (+2)

HP: 15 = 10 con + 5 level
AC: 18 = 10 + 4 armor + 3 dex +1 level
Attack: +4 Bow/1d8+3, +3 Sword/1d8+2

...

Characters gain a +1 to hit and +1 AC each level, and a +1 to damage every even level. They gain +5 + Con bonus HP each level as well.

Every odd level, give them a new trick (like the offhand parry, free attack on a crit, aimed shot, or double-shot).

...

Use old fashioned D&D monsters (pre-AD&D). And you have a D&D like game that is quite similar to original D&D.

Of course, that is just me. I'm comphie rolling my own game system at the drop of a hat.

AtwasAwamps
2010-01-26, 01:20 PM
4. Focus on the roleplaying. Female roleplayers are a rare breed, and in my experience roleplaying is the part of the game that most enjoy the most. Find as many opportunities to pull this back into the game as you can. Even in combat situations, give them intelligent foes to face. If the battle is going their way, have the opponent brag and be full of bravado (its more fun to knock them down a peg that way.) As the battle turns against them maybe the foes try to surrender.



Just a heads up...this is not gospel. The female in my group is extremely bored by roleplay and I have to struggle to keep her interested when combat isn't a part of the game. Don't make this generalization. If you really want to help this guy get her into DnD, then TALK to HER, not him. Not to make another sweeping generalization, but guys never know as much as they think they do about what a girl likes.

Dragonmuncher
2010-01-26, 01:27 PM
Since she's a newbie player, she won't care too much about the rules and mechanics (probably). So, she'll say stuff like "I want to shoot the branch above the bad guy so it falls onto his head and knocks him out."


Well, ok!


So make her an archery-ranger with a good amount of skill points (Climb, Jump... whatever seems like it might come up in the adventure you run). That way, she'll be able to go "Ok! I'm going to grab this vine and swing down on the bad guy!" And you'll be able to go sure! and have the mechanics to back it up. Make the skill DCs a bit lower than normal, and I bet it'll be fine.

Another_Poet
2010-01-26, 02:26 PM
It sounds like you are not having fun and that your job is to arrange a game so that this guy can make sure his partner doesn't have fun either. It sounds like he is the only one who wants to do it. I would politely retract my offer to DM and get out of there quickly.

If you do go ahead with it then start their characters at 4th level. Why 4th? Because he as the cleric will only have 2nd level spells (not too complext) while she as a fighter (yes I said fighter) will have 3 bonus feats.

It won't be complex if you build pre-gen characters for them. Basically you want to make sure she has Precise Shot or it's going to suck for her. That requires Point Blank Shot. That's two feats spent.

With 1 more Fighter feat, a 1st and 3rd level feats, and maybe one from being human that's 3-4 more she can pick for herself. And I would have her pick for herself, along with allocate her skill points (you tell her how many she has, she decides where to put them) and let her roll her own HD. It's character creation "lite" so she gets an intro but annoying stuff is done.

Have a fun module ready with a lot of low-AC enemies who used ranged weapons. Put them up in trees, on top of roofs or wherever. That will give her a lot to do and make it hard for the cleric to reach them for the smiting. This is about making it exciting for her so make it hard for her annoying BF to killsteal. (Of course put some stuff in there for him too, a room full of low-HD zombies or whatever, but still.)

If she's into the game at all she'll get a thrill from shooting a kobold archer out of a tree and seeing it take extra damage from falling.

If she's not into it, no biggy. You did your best.

But yeah, since there's no good feedback from the players just pre gen an archer fighter and a Good cleric and get ready to see human pyschology at its finest.

Prime32
2010-01-26, 02:56 PM
A lot of people are misreading the OP

There are two characters: one is a TWF katana cleric, and the other is an archer. Not one guy who wants to be an archer cleric who also wields katanas.

For the first one, give him a chai-katana and a wakizashi. Explain that samurai never fought with two swords of equal length. Use the stats for a longsword and a shortsword.

Runeclaw
2010-01-26, 06:54 PM
Explain that samurai never fought with two swords of equal length.

They didn't really fight with two swords of different lengths, either, for the most part. The katana was typically wielded two-handed. The wakizashi was more of a backup weapon or sidearm than an off-hand weapon.

KillianHawkeye
2010-01-26, 07:27 PM
There were actually several competing styles of swordplay in ancient Japan. Miyamoto Musashi was one of the most famous and is known for using a katana and wakizashi, but there were others who used dual katanas, dual wakizashis, single katana, or other weapons such as nodachi or naginata. D&D samurai are really just one archetype out of several that existed across various time periods.

Xenogears
2010-01-26, 07:33 PM
There were actually several competing styles of swordplay in ancient Japan. Miyamoto Musashi was one of the most famous and is known for using a katana and wakizashi, but there were others who used dual katanas, dual wakizashis, single katana, or other weapons such as nodachi or naginata. D&D samurai are really just one archetype out of several that existed across various time periods.

Don't forget the ever-popular mounted archery.

KillianHawkeye
2010-01-26, 07:39 PM
Don't forget the ever-popular mounted archery.

I know, I just neglected to mention it. :smallwink:

Xenogears
2010-01-26, 07:46 PM
Ironically I was just working on a mounted charger/archer samurai build...

Stupid OA. Always making me make samurai. Then reminding me your 3.0 not 3.5...