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Cyanic
2010-01-27, 11:50 AM
Preface

I wanted to see a nice divine melee class that could actually stand up in combat with full casters.

Originally, I wrote it up as a 10 level prc but its seemed redoing as a paladin rewrite would be better. This is still a work in progress for now.

Of Note to Peachers

I am aiming for a tier 2/3 area with this rewrite. Changes of particular note:

Removed alot of alignment related things such as allowable associations.
Reduced MAD by moving everything from WIS to CHA
Much more casting, and spontanious.
More special abilities.
Fixed smite to be actually useful.
Better saves.
Larger Skill list
Removed Special Mount
Added a small amount of situational flexability with Celestial Aspect


Not sure if its too powerful though. If you see something obviously broken. Please feel free to mention it as well as possible fixes.

My acid testing has it about on par with a druid in terms of power in scope but less flexable, still crushed by wizard/cleric in most challenges.

**Dead lvl @ 20th, working on something to add.


Paladin (rewrite)



”When mortals crumble in the face of overwhelming evil we arrive.”

The Paladin is a holy warrior who has created a contract of shared power with an angel to fight those who oppose good. As she grows stronger she takes on more of the angel's powers as his own soul grows.

"You are the hope of the world, may god have mercy on your enemies."


Making A Paladin


Abilities: The Paladin is first and foremost a warrior, your strength should reflect this. Your casting and supernatural abilities also require a good Charisma.

Requirements:

Must be of Good alignment.



Class SkillsThe Paladin's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Skills Per Day at 1st Level : (4 + int)x4
Skills Per Day at Each Additional Level : 4 + int

Spell Casting: The Paladin casts divine spells beginning at 6th level. The Paladin does not prepare spells, they are all cast spontaneously. She is however still required to spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or prayer to regain her daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a Paladin can regain spells.

The Paladin does not gain any domain powers. To prepare or cast a spell, a Paladin must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Paladin's spell is 10 + the spell level + the Paladins Charisma modifier. The Paladin can cast any spell available to a cleric but cannot cast spells from the evil domain.

Like other spellcasters, a Paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on the below table. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score.


Hit Dice: d10


Class Restrictions: The Paladin must maintain a good alignment to the best of his ability. If she ever willingly, and with full situational knowledge performs an truely evil act (such as rape or an unprovoked killing) she forever loses all his class abilities. Minor offenses have no bearing on class standing.

Note to DMs, don't be stupid with this.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency : Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).



{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Reflex Save|Will Save|Special| 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6
1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Smite Heretic, Detect Evil |2|1|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Holy Weapon, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands|3|1|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Providence, Aura of Courage|3|2|-|-|-|-|-
4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Turn Undead, Divine Health|4|2|-|-|-|-|-
5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Shield of True Faith (10%)|4|3|1|-|-|-|-
6th|+6|+5|+2|+5|Imbued Smite|4|4|1|-|-|-|-
7th|+7|+5|+2|+5|Celestial Aspect|4|4|2|-|-|-|-
8th|+8|+6|+2|+6|Shield of True Faith (20%)|4|4|3|1|-|-|-
9th|+9|+6|+3|+6|Improved Holy Weapon|4|4|4|1|-|-|-
10th|+10|+7|+3|+7||4|4|4|2|-|-|-
11th|+11|+7|+3|+7||4|4|4|3|1|-|-
12th|+12|+8|+4|+8|Shield of True Faith (40%)|4|4|4|4|1|-|-
13th|+13|+8|+4|+8||4|4|4|4|2|-|-
14th|+14|+9|+4|+9|Angelic Power|4|4|4|4|3|1|-
15th|+15|+9|+5|+9|Dual Aspect|4|4|4|4|4|2|-
16th|+16|+10|+5|+10|Shield of True Faith (60%)|4|4|4|4|4|3|1
17th|+17|+10|+5|+10||4|4|4|4|4|4|1
18th|+18|+11|+6|+11|Weapon of God|4|4|4|4|4|4|2
19th|+19|+11|+6|+11||4|4|4|4|4|4|3
20th|+20|+12|+6|+12|Avatar|4|4|4|4|4|4|4
[/table]


Smite Heretic (Su) - The paladin may attempt to smite anyone she declares a heretic (verbal declaration as a free action) with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level.

This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to the Paladin's Charisma Modifier +1.

Detect Evil (Su) - At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.


Holy Weapon (Su) - Any weapon the Paladin uses to smite is considered magical cold-iron + 1 in addition to any other properties the weapon already possesses during the smite. This enchantment bonus (+1), does not stack with any enchantment bonus already present on the weapon, use the higher value only.

Divine Grace (Su) - At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.

Lay on Hands (Su) - Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level × her charisma bonus. A paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once. Using lay on hands is a standard action.

Alternatively, a paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The paladin decides how many of her daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature.

Providence (Su)- The Paladin issues a divine command that affects mortal creatures. This effect mimics Greater Command, but targets with less then 1/2 the Paladins HD do not get a will save. The Paladin can use this ability a number of times a day equal to half her charisma modifier (minimum 1/day).

Aura of Courage (Su) - Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects.

This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if she is unconscious or dead.

Turn Undead (Su) - When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. She turns undead as a cleric of three levels lower would.

Shield of True Faith (Su)- Gives divine-typed miss chance of 10%, this effect increases to 20% at level 8, 40% at level 12 and 60% at level 16. This effect does not stack with any other miss chance.

Imbued Smite(Su)- If she expends a turning attempt in conjunction with a Use of Smite Heretic, she adds her Charisma bonus to damage and the enemy must make a Will save (DC 10 + paladin level + cha mod) or be Shaken for 1d4 rounds. This effect is in addition to the normal smite effect.

Celestial Aspect (Su)- The paladin can as a swift action (mental), channel a small amount of the divine through her body to gain ONE of the following aspects. This ability lasts a number of rounds equal to 2x the paladin's charisma modifier. The paladin can use this abilty a number of times per day equal to 1/2 her charisma modifier (min. 1/day). The paladin can only have one instance of Celestial Aspect active at a time, activating a new one ends the old effect.


Aspects:


Celestial Blood : Fast Healing 3.
Celestial Vision : Blindsight 60'.
Celestial Arcane Resiliance : SR of 10+ HD
Celestial Speed : +30' movement rate in all modes and +2 initiative
Celestial Fire : Any creature grappling or striking the paladin with a non-reach or natural weapon takes damage equal to 1d8+ the paladins Charisma modifier per round of contact (in case of grapple) or per successful attack. This fire is 1/2 divine damage that is not mitigated by fire resistance or immunity. There is no save vs this effect.




Improved Holy Weapon (Su)- Any weapon the Paladin uses to smite is considered magical cold-iron +3, holy, in addition to any other properties the weapon already possesses during the smite. This enchantment bonus (+3), does not stack with any enchantment bonus already present on the weapon, use the higher value only.


Angelic Power- Gives the Angel(native) subtype and all angel traits. Additionally the Paladin gains a fly speed of 80 (good).


Angel Traits:
An angel possesses the following traits.


Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
Immunity to acid, cold, and petrification.
Resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10.
+4 racial bonus on saves against poison.
Protective Aura (Su): Against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of the angel.

Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against evil effect and a lesser globe of invulnerability, both with a radius of 20 feet (caster level equals angel’s HD).
Tongues (Su): All angels can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level equal to angel’s Hit Dice). This ability is always active.



Dual Aspect- When activating her Celestial Aspect ability, the paladin now chooses 2 different aspects which are both in effect for the normal duration.

Weapon of God (Su)- Any weapon the Paladin uses to smite is considered to have the stats of a Holy Avenger in addition to any other properties the weapon already possesses during the smite. This enchantment bonus (+5), does not stack with any enchantment bonus already present on the weapon, use the higher value only.

Avatar- compiling stats (should be done soon)

Ouranos
2010-01-27, 12:56 PM
HAWT.... lol. Probably OP abit, but not great at judging that. Sexy though.

jiriku
2010-01-27, 12:57 PM
You have neglected to include the angel knight's spell list.

Cyanic
2010-01-27, 01:26 PM
You have neglected to include the angel knight's spell list.

updated... also made small clarification in Aura of True Faith.

Milskidasith
2010-01-27, 01:42 PM
This has the Soulblade problem... it's only class feature is getting a weapon. Well, not quite as bad, but besides the 50% dodge chance and the fact it's basically a paladin + (since it stacks with paladin levels on every feature, it's a straight upgrade, which is bad PrC design, though this doesn't get that much), it's not that impressive.

I'd recommend a total rewrite... while it's a neat concept, the 50% miss chance is insane (especially since total concealment makes it a 100% miss chance, so you're invincible from all non AoEs), the only other features are the ability to smite anything (which a paladin should be able to do anyway, but that's just my opinion) and to get a free weapon, and it stacks with paladin levels so any paladin would take it.

Basically, it sucks for non paladins (besides the permanent 50%, 100% with a fog cloud, miss chance), and paladins would always take it because it has no prerequisites that aren't fluff and it stacks with everything anyway, so they might as well get some minor benefits.

DracoDei
2010-01-27, 01:47 PM
Straight upgrade -> turn it into a paladin re-write... ("At level X, you bond with an angel...") and call it good?

Milskidasith
2010-01-27, 01:53 PM
Straight upgrade -> turn it into a paladin re-write... ("At level X, you bond with an angel...") and call it good?

Probably a better idea than rewriting the PrC.

Cyanic
2010-01-28, 06:00 AM
paladin re-write


basically a paladin +

Hmmm, sounds good, I think I will expand it into a full 20 Paladin rewrite over the next day or so. Gonna aim for tier 3~ish. More casting, clarify a few things, etc.

Cyanic
2010-02-02, 11:15 AM
rewrite up, peachy peachy ppls

Cataphract
2010-02-02, 11:27 AM
The problem is that even though it seems to have plenty of stuff, can't say it's overpowering. Definitely looks tier 3, though.

The holy weapon applies only when you're smiting? Also, why cold-iron and not silver too, to bypass lawful DRs too? Perhaps Lawful paladins get cold iron, Chaotic ones silver, and neutral ones choose one of the two? Also, if they stack, that way a straight-up +5 weapon can become a +8 holy weapon?

Also, I think he's already casting a bit too much. Higher spell levels (but not as many spells per day) as a duskblade. A good ratio would be to have more spells per day but a lower spell level (4 was fine, actually, he's not a primary or even secondary caster).




This has the Soulblade problem...

Hmm... never heard of that. What's the difference with Soulknife? I'd like a link, please. Thanks :smallbiggrin:

Cyanic
2010-02-02, 11:36 AM
Also, if they stack, that way a straight-up +5 weapon can become a +8 holy weapon?


Enchantment bonus (+'s) certainly shouldn't stack(use highest only). I will specifically mention it though to clarify.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-02, 11:44 AM
Dead levels, especially at 20, are bad. Period. Avoid them at all costs, pretty much. Paladin spellcasting is not generally strong enough to justify that being your only feature at a level.

I disagree, personally, with moving everything to Wis - I would have moved spellcasting to Cha with everything else. It's, A., less of a change, and B., makes more sense to me. Paladins (again, to me) are about being the hero, the leader, the courageous bastion of light standing against the forces of hell. It's all about Charisma; leave the quiet contemplative life for Clerics and Monks. Besides, mechanically, we already have a Wis-based melee character or five (Monk in Core, PsyWar, Swordsage, etc outside of Core), but there's not so many Cha-based ones.

Holy Restoration being a /week thing is ridiculous. Who cares about an ability you can use /week? Make it 1/day, and upgrade the kind of spell that it mimics as it improves, IMO. So it starts as Restoration, then Heal (make it the real Heal, why not?), Greater Restoration, Resurrection, and True Resurrection. Or something. Right now you're giving him something the Cleric can do several times a day, five times a week. It's a little silly.

Celestial Aspect needs a clarification on whether or not you can use it multiple times at once, to get multiple aspects. Or to get an aspect twice, does it stack? Dual Aspect would imply that you cannot do this, but I dunno if that's necessary. *shrug*

Other than that, I think you're going in the right direction with this.

Cyanic
2010-02-02, 11:57 AM
Dead levels, especially at 20, are bad...
Yeah I agree, gonna have to think about that this afternoon and come up with something.


spellcasting to Cha with everything else...
I like this so much I am changing it now.


Holy Restoration...
This was based off the old paladin's cure disease, but yeah, the /week is gonna need a change. I like the scaling part too. I figure I will rewrite it tomorrow.


Celestial Aspect needs a clarification ...
Adding clarification about only one active use at a time and changed Dual Aspect to read 2 different effects.

Btw, thanks for the review.

Temotei
2010-02-02, 12:12 PM
Requirements for a base class should never include something like making a pact. Good alignment is enough.

Why Knowledge (arcana)?

You would think that the paladin could repent in some way for a crime, yes? Let them go through a divine quest if one is bestowed to gain their features back.

Do you round down for the uses per day of providence? Is there a minimum amount of uses (one is recommended for a minimum)?

The miss chance is really powerful. It's eventually better than most spells' miss chances, and it's permanent. Just note that.


The paladin can, as a free action, channel a small amount of the divine power through her body to gain one of the following aspects. This ability lasts a number of rounds equal to 2x the paladin's wisdom modifier. The paladin can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1/2 her wisdom modifier, rounded down.

Fixed, but you should specify that you can only have one effect at a time. I also recommend making this a swift action.

The power to use heal a number of times per week without half the effect of the spell isn't great.

Angelic power comes too early. It could be a capstone...

...and the same goes for weapon of god, which I think would sound better if you called it god weapon, since weapon of god implies there is only one, which isn't necessarily true for all settings (including Greyhawk).

Cyanic
2010-02-02, 12:41 PM
Good alignment is enough.

Good point. Removing.


Why Knowledge (arcana)?

Figured clerics had it as an option, so why not really.

Temotei
2010-02-02, 12:53 PM
Consider that energy immunity vs. one energy type is a 6th level spell slot.

Angelic power makes you immune to three types forever, plus you have resistance versus two. Not to mention the other properties. I'd make it a 15th level feature or so.

Zeful
2010-02-02, 01:02 PM
Smite Heretic (Su)[/B] - The paladin may attempt to smite anyone she declares a heretic (verbal declaration as a free action) with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level.

This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to the Paladin's Charisma Modifier +1..

This ability isn't really useful. 1 point of damage per level is useless for everyone not playing a ubercharing auto-crit paladin (which means there are very few actual Paladin level being used, making it even more useless). Really you'd be better off making it give dice of damage with a boost from levels/Charisma (e.g. 1d8+Chamod+level).

Cyanic
2010-02-02, 01:02 PM
I'd make it a 15th level feature or so.

14 is conviently empty. Moving it there for now pending further review.



uses per day of providence
Yup standard round down, added a min 1/day. Also added a min 1/day to Celestial Aspect as it had the same issue.




Dern work is picking up, gonna look at this some more tomorrow. Thanks for the peacheries so far people.

Glimbur
2010-02-02, 01:09 PM
I personally don't like Smites as a per day resource, preferring them as per encounter. This does increase their staying power.

Spontaneous casting from the entire cleric list? Even if it's only up to 6th level spells, the Cleric list is huge.

Knights have a really cool capstone, but I'm not sure what class feature with uses/day the Paladin would use to fuel refusing to die.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-02, 01:25 PM
Oh yeah, I missed that. Make it any spell on the existing Paladin spell list, that's far more manageable. And with Spell Compendium, that's a pretty good list.

Shyftir
2010-02-02, 03:30 PM
I'd like to see you using the "Turn Undead Attempts as a Resource" thing. a bit more here. It's already a pretty common mechanic and as a Cha-based character you have plenty of them.

As for spellcasting I'd suggest you go with the duskblade concept even more, by changing his progression from a delayed progression (I hate delayed progressions.) to a duskblade-style you start with spells but gain them very slowly. The Paladin always was to my mind a divine gish class. why not make it very much so.

So yes this is much stronger than the written paladin but it still gets its butt handed to it by wizards and clerics. So balance feels pretty good.

TabletopNuke
2010-02-02, 09:29 PM
I'd say it's a bit too much.

Even without the special features, this class is very powerful. All those proficiencies, d10, 4 skill points, good BAB, 2 good saves, is a lot on it's own, without the spells and special abilities (though not overpowered). Add spells that go all the way up to 6th level and you got a lot. Toss in the special features, and it's probably overpowered.

If you were just looking for some special mount replacements, I can make some suggestions.

If you have access to Complete Warrior, the hexblade could be reworked into a very interesting paladin that inflicted holy retribution, rather than curses.

PS: With divine grace, you don't need good Will progression.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-02, 09:49 PM
Proficiencies: Really? No, that stuff is just gimmes. Anyone who seriously puts any real value on martial weapon and heavy proficiency is crazy. And what kind of Paladin wouldn't have those?

Hit Die: A d10 is pretty standard. A good HD for a melee class is d12. Getting a d10 just means you aren't getting nerfed in health. Would you really give a Paladin a d8?

Skill Points: 4 skill points should be the minimum outside of Wizards. Period. Giving a melee character 2+Int skill points is just insulting.

Saves: Good, but not incredible. Buffing a weak save is hardly difficult.

BAB: Again, this is par for the course. It's probably the most powerful thing you listed, but would you honestly give them 3/4? Seriously?

You're calling that "very powerful"? The class features are good, but there's nothing broken here. This is like, a solid Tier 3. Maybe Tier 2 if you give them spontaneous access to the whole Cleric list; that's probably not a good idea. But seriously, straight up power? Cleric still wins, hands down. So does Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer, and Psion, certainly.

Is it massively better than the old Paladin? Yes. Is it better than the Fighter? Yes. Is it better than the Monk? Oh gods, yes! And if it wasn't, it would be an utter failure of a class - just like those three are.

Is it better than a Warblade? Eh... maybe. Not sure. Probably, but only just so.

Random_person
2010-02-03, 12:32 AM
I gotta say, it looks good. At first glance from a balance perspective. But then I look at it from a players perspective, and I go "Stuff this. I get nothing to play with except a few x/day abilities (which I won't be able to use frequently) until 6th level!"

Is it balanced? Quite probably. Is it going to be fun to play? IMHO, quite probably not until the later levels. You get a bunch of static buffs and some x/day abilities that suffer from being strictly 1/day in one case and limited by how well you can cover your MAD in the other. By comparison with some other classes considered a good choice to play:

Wizard: Yeah, wizard gets that a little. At level 1.
Cleric: See above, but less so.
ToB: No, none of that problem. Seriously, you can pull interesting tricks out of your hat with astonishing regularity.
Psionics: See wiz/cleric.
Rogue: So but not so. You get to shine out of combat with the rogue, so it kind of makes up for it. Suffers the most from those listed so far.
Barbarian: Yes, we're getting that here. Except that barbarian's limited use abilities last longer and have more impact.

And so on. The problem is not power, but the fact that people have less fun when they just have a bunch of numbers to play with. That miss chance is about the funnest thing you get at low levels.

Temotei
2010-02-03, 12:37 AM
PS: With divine grace, you don't need good Will progression.

With divine grace, you don't need good Fortitude progression. :smalltongue:

Same logic--poor. The paladin is commonly touted as the strong-willed melee combatant of the heavens/gods. There's no reason to not have good Will.

TabletopNuke
2010-02-03, 02:05 AM
With divine grace, you don't need good Fortitude progression. :smalltongue:
That may be true, but most players are unwilling to take a class with no good saves.

Same logic--poor. The paladin is commonly touted as the strong-willed melee combatant of the heavens/gods. There's no reason to not have good Will.

That's a good point, and I kinda wondered why they had Fort as their best save.

Dang, I'm really liking that idea now for the Hexblade-based paladin who deals out divine retribution instead of curses. Holy warriors aren't really my cup of tea, though. If someone else wants to run with that idea, be sure to post it.

Cyanic
2010-02-03, 08:58 AM
Ok, made a few changes today so far, going to be doing more as the morning progresses.

For now, I drew out the spell progression back to lvl 1 to give more low level toys to play with. Still ends up with the same total at 20.

Added another use for turn attempts with Imbued Smite.

I removed the Holy Restoration, mainly due to the fact that /week sucked; I thought about switching it to /day but it would still be silly as Dragoon pointed out since it was a lesser version of what a cleric could do multiple times a day. That left only the option to improve its function, but I didn't want to class to feel more like a healer. Removing this should also help a little bit to balance the casting.

On balancing the casting, I have never liked the paladin spell lists so I would rather see this using the cleric lists. Would it be better to tone it down a bit by limiting by domain, or just scaling back off the spontaneous casting, or good as is for a tier 2/3 goal ?

I came up with two possible capstone ideas yesterday. Toss some opinions on these. These are currently unfluffed. I was thinking along the lines of having each one use turn attempts.


Avatar - Gain divine rank 0 for a few rounds once a day. IIRC this would give higher speed (I think 60, 200 fly), 35 SR, maxed hp, ac +13. Probably have it burn a turn attempt per round or something to keep up. Activate as a swift action.

Prime Incarnation - Activate a double strength version of all Angelic Aspects at once for one turn attempt per round. Activate as a swift action.

Random_person
2010-02-03, 01:04 PM
Alright, that looks good from a player's perspective. The spontaneous casting from the entire cleric list is now worrying me, though: Perhaps change it to spontaneous casting from (say) the Healing, Good, Strength and Law/Chaos depending on alignment domains, and possibly one domain from their deity?

For holy restoration: perhaps limit it to per day, but bring it back a few levels? So that you get it before the cleric, that is.

I like both capstone ideas, but I think that I prefer Avatar. This would grant the following boosts:

Base land speed of 60' (barring unusual races)
Damage reduction 10/epic
Fire resist 5
Spell Resist 32
No eating, sleeping or breathing
Maximum hit points
Fly speed increases to 100'


Which is decent, to say the least. Decent, but not incredible: it's a buff, but not god mode. That being the case, I think it would be fair to grant the Outsider type permanently as well, without the native subtype, and let it retroactively boost your stats to give you:

All good saves
Skill points go up to 8+Int mod/level
No need to sleep or eat
Unaffected by a number of spells, which unfortunately includes ressurection and raise dead.


So not much, but something nice, particularly the extra saves and skill points.

Cyanic
2010-02-05, 10:48 AM
Ok wrapping this up now. Only one opinion on the capstone, and since I liked that one too, gonna compile the stats out of deities and demigods whenever I can get home (snow/work/stuck/:smallfrown:).

Gonna leave the casting as spontanious, and keep the full cleric list, but specify that the paladin cannot cast evil spells.

DaTedinator
2010-02-06, 12:23 PM
I really like what you've done with the Paladin; putting more emphasis on the spells (rather than doing what most rewrites I've seen do, and taking away the spells) seems like a good idea. However, I question whether you need 6th level spells. 6th level spells, to me, seems more the realm of people who cast as much as they fight, which, if that's what you're going for, is fine, but otherwise I'd only give up to 5th, like the Duskblade.

Also, as much as I like reducing MAD, I dunno, I kinda liked the option for a wise Paladin. I suppose there's always that feat from Dragon, neh?

I like the tweaking of smite. You should consider dropping the Heretic part, though, and just making it a Smite. The Holy Weapon abilities are nifty, but I think you could make them more unique and flavorful. Basing it off of the Holy Avenger was a nice start, but the enhancement bonus thing is strange.

Providence is a great ability, fantastic flavor too. Strange name choice, though.

I don't like Shield of True Faith. It seems strangely out of place compared to all the other Paladin abilities, and with heavy armor proficiency, shield proficiency, and that much spellcasting, I don't think he needs a defensive ability that strong. Consider rolling it into Celestial Aspect (see below), and replacing it with something else (maybe a party buff? Reinforce the paladin's position as leader?).

I really like the Celestial Aspect ability, but I think you can go a bit further with it. I don't think it needs limited uses per day; I think it'd be perfectly fine to just make it a lasting effect that can be switched as a swift action. If you think that's a bit much, consider making it usable at will as a swift action, and it lasts for 1 round.

Is Angel a type, or a subtype? Wouldn't it be Outsider (Angel, Native)? I could be wrong.

I do not like the Divine Rank 0 capstone. I think it'd be much better to make it a permanent buff that's based off of Divine Rank 0 (grants DR/Epic, Fly speed, etc.).

imp_fireball
2010-02-06, 05:48 PM
Here's an idea -

Ability to customize code of honor according to alignment at GM/player discretion (its the GM's fault if the player creates any loop holes). In this way some LG paladins might be celibate while others are highly promiscuous but both believe in order being required to bring peace and happiness, etc.

Also consider that some paladins might 'fall' by failing to live up to their church's ideals rather than their deity (or angel).


Must be of Good alignment.

Yah... this is an old grudge that has already been fixed in the SRD to allow for champions of other alignments with slightly varied abilities.

Change 'smite evil' to 'smite infidel' and then give them a 'divine justice' ability later on.


Smite Heretic (Su) - The paladin may attempt to smite anyone she declares a heretic (verbal declaration as a free action) with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level.

This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to the Paladin's Charisma Modifier +1.

This pretty much indicates that the paladin can smite anyone as long as they're 'mostly good... mostly'.

Here's an alternative: 'Smite Heretic' works if the church or deity declares that a certain creature is 'a heretic' by nature. In this way, it works like 'smite abomination'. Great for racist paladins. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Also, my 'smite infidel' (which is, as you worded 'smite heretic'), should apply to those that are genuinely heretics as defined by the paladin's association (church, deity, cult, etc.). Declaring someone a 'heretic' is pure roleplay. Not all paladins need to be up front. Perhaps a paladin's code of honor allows them to take rogue levels?

Which is why I like my code of honor ruling. It allows for a more flexible variety of paladins.

Divine Justice
- Say, they pray to their deity or church (the church might have telepathic 'prayer receivers') for justification as to their actions. If whoever they smite was justifiable, in the sense that they opposed every ideal of the paladin's association down to the fundamentals (their alignment is evil if the paladin is good, ie.), than that victim becomes divinely cursed - or suffers an additional 1d6 damage for every level of the paladin after each smite. Or perhaps the paladin can use smite against that opponent whenever they wish. Essentially, the victim becomes marked in this way (call it 'mark of the heretic'). Praying (the process of stating your conviction and then waiting for an answer) is a 1 round action. Note that the victim already needs to have been smote at least once.

Once the paladin is 'granted permission' to give their victim the mark, giving it can be performed as a glare attack of sorts (Free action, and then move or standard action for every 'try again' or however glare rules normally work).

- Change 'detect evil' to 'detect non-believer'. Also, gives a +4 to sense motive checks against whoever they have successfully performed a detection against. Finally they receive a +4 to diplomacy checks to interact with those of the same faith as themselves.