PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Metamagic



Godskook
2010-01-28, 12:40 PM
I was thinking, metamagic abuse is one of the bigger worries with spellcasters, especially with things like incantrix and DMM(Persist), but how bad would these things be if it was capped as such: A caster can not cast a spell that's has a higher spell level than his highest spell slot's level, regardless of reducers that may be in place to cheapen the spell's 'cost'. For example, a L10 wizard can cast an empowered fireball, and he can even cast it from a 3rd level slot(or hell, let's get wild, he can cast it from a lower slot if he's able to abuse metamagic enough) if he has the feats to do so, but he can't cast a Maximized fireball since that's a 6th level spell before reductions, and he doesn't have the ability to cast 6th level spells yet.

This rule would not affect sudden metamagics or rods.

So, how bad is that?

arguskos
2010-01-28, 12:45 PM
I was thinking, metamagic abuse is one of the bigger worries with spellcasters, especially with things like incantrix and DMM(Persist), but how bad would these things be if it was capped as such: A caster can not cast a spell that's has a higher spell level than his highest spell slot's level, regardless of reducers that may be in place to cheapen the spell's 'cost'. For example, a L10 wizard can cast an empowered fireball, and he can even cast it from a 3rd level slot(or hell, let's get wild, he can cast it from a lower slot if he's able to abuse metamagic enough) if he has the feats to do so, but he can't cast a Maximized fireball since that's a 6th level spell before reductions, and he doesn't have the ability to cast 6th level spells yet.

This rule would not affect sudden metamagics or DMM.

So, how bad is that?
Doesn't affect DMM. Doesn't fix the issue.

Now, swap it so it does work on DMM , and it'd probably help stop something insane such as the Orb of Doom. It also kills builds like the Mailman dead, which can be a bad thing, depending on the op level of the game.

For lower powered games, when Incantrix can shatter the campaign without meaning to, it's a fine rule. For higher powered stuff, I'd leave the game as is.

Zack Faust
2010-01-28, 12:49 PM
I like this approach to dealing with metamagic. It doesn't address problems that occur when the spellcaster gets to higher levels (such as the spells being broken as is), but it does limit them and raises the level at which they become broken a bit as well as prevents them from using any metamagic on 7th level spells. All in all I like it. I have to ask though, as I am a fan of Psionics, how spell casters would fair against Psions with this new rule? Psions couldn't quite keep up with spell casters, but I think this rule would tip the power balance their way. Like I said though, I like it, and finding ways to balance out spellcasters (and psionics) so that regular fighters can stand a chance in 3.5 is always a good idea in my book, so nice!

Ernir
2010-01-28, 12:52 PM
It's a start.

Godskook
2010-01-28, 12:53 PM
Doesn't affect DMM. Doesn't fix the issue.

Sorry, it was meant to affect DMM. Edited that, meant that it doesn't affect Suddens or *RODS*. Knowing that, does it help against DMM clerics?

I really should sleep more...

Thrawn183
2010-01-28, 12:56 PM
Honestly? I think you could fix a huge number of the issues by just getting rid of metamagic reducers and spellcasting as a swift or immediate action.

You still have true strike -> ranged touch spell issues, but at least the opposition has time to try and do something about it first, and yeah some spells are still simply amazing but that makes up for playing a character with d4 HD, one good save and poor BAB.

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-01-28, 01:04 PM
Well, first I'm going to say that your wording is a bit off. Maximized fireball is not a 6th level spell. It’s a 3rd level spell that takes a 6th level slot. It’s a very important distinction. For instance, as a 3rd level spell, it is still blocked by globe of invulnerability (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/spellsFtoG.html#globe-of-invulnerability). And it would also affect restrictions on the level of the spell.

Furthermore, part of the purpose of various metamagic reducers is to allow you to cast metamagicked spells you couldn’t normally do. If you are capable of using Maximize Spell with only a +2 spell slot adjustment, you get to cast it using a 5th level spell slot. Period.

And, yeah, that includes Divine Metamagic.

Aside:
It always struck me that Divine Metamagic’s problem wasn’t the feat itself so much as nightsticks. I rarely hear examples of abuse that don’t involve using those to pay the necessary turn/rebuke uses. Without nightsticks, you still have a pretty good cap on how you can use Divine Metamagic.

Anyway, I think the best fix that allows us to maintain these feats' purpose and reign potential abuse in is the following:

Up the price of nightsticks or ban them altogether.
To each metamagic feat, add the following prerequisite:

Prerequisite: Ability to cast level <x> spells
Where <x> is equal to the feat’s spell slot adjustment. I always thought it was funny you could take a feat that requires a 4th level spell slot at 1st level.

arguskos
2010-01-28, 01:06 PM
Sorry, it was meant to affect DMM. Edited that, meant that it doesn't affect Suddens or *RODS*. Knowing that, does it help against DMM clerics?

I really should sleep more...
Well... yeah. It negates the whole "lol Persist" thing that some clerics do, which is good, for lower powered games.

Do remember that blanket banning/negating metamagic reducers is all fine and dandy, for some types of games and not for others. Higher powered games, such as the ToS style of play, would not want this rule.

Wings of Peace
2010-01-28, 01:13 PM
Honestly? I think you could fix a huge number of the issues by just getting rid of metamagic reducers and spellcasting as a swift or immediate action.

You still have true strike -> ranged touch spell issues, but at least the opposition has time to try and do something about it first

If you need True Strike to hit with your ranged touch spells you're either doing something wrong or using entirely the wrong spell against what you're fighting.

arguskos
2010-01-28, 01:14 PM
If you need True Strike to hit with your ranged touch spells you're either doing something wrong or using entirely the wrong spell against what you're fighting.
Or, your war chant is DAKKADAKKADAKKA. :smallamused:

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-28, 01:34 PM
Metamagic isn't as big a problem as people make it out to be. Sure, it's fairly powerful, but only a few specific feats are able to break the concept (Echo Spell, DMM, Residual Metamagic, etc. Note that only one of these is an actual Metamagic feat).

The real problem is the spells it can be applied to, and the number of feats you can apply to a single spell. Psions can only get 2 Metapsionic feats on a single power (pre-Epic), but casters can easily get 4 or 5. Limiting the number is a reasonable way to reduce abuse, but it still leaves a few gaps.

jiriku
2010-01-28, 02:00 PM
The issue isn't just the 7th level caster with an orb of death. It's also the 14th level caster with 14 orbs of death per day and 5 orbs of you-thought-the-orb-of-death-was-bad-now-try-this.

A real whack at the problem would be a house rule stating that effects that reduce the cost of using metamagic or substitute an alternate currency for paying those costs (as DMM does) do not stack. Thus, take easy metamagic, practical metamagic, residual magic, arcane thesis, metamagic school focus, divine metamagic, incantatrix 10, dweomerkeeper 10, metamagic rods, and that bard feat that's like DMM but using bardic music uses. Now any time you cast a metamagicked spell, pick only one of those, and that's all you get to use.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-28, 02:31 PM
Am I the only one who doesn't actually see this as a problem?

I mean, lets face it, most of those options are difficult to get, or of very limited utility. Arcane Thesis is the single most powerful, but it only applies to one spell. One spell, no matter how awesome, is not good in every situation.

Things like the mailman build are incredibly feat intensive. I believe replicating it requires two flaws and buying Iron will via Otoyugh Hole. If you're allowing all that, its not a low powered campaign.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-28, 02:34 PM
Am I the only one who doesn't actually see this as a problem?

I mean, lets face it, most of those options are difficult to get, or of very limited utility. Arcane Thesis is the single most powerful, but it only applies to one spell. One spell, no matter how awesome, is not good in every situation.

Things like the mailman build are incredibly feat intensive. I believe replicating it requires two flaws and buying Iron will via Otoyugh Hole. If you're allowing all that, its not a low powered campaign.

DMM is actually a tad stronger than AT, but only because of powerful metamagic feats like Quicken and Persist. AT is best if your build focuses on that spell alone as it's main offense, but DMM is capable of being applied to multiple spells.

Frosty
2010-01-28, 02:36 PM
Am I the only one who doesn't actually see this as a problem?

I mean, lets face it, most of those options are difficult to get, or of very limited utility. Arcane Thesis is the single most powerful, but it only applies to one spell. One spell, no matter how awesome, is not good in every situation.

Things like the mailman build are incredibly feat intensive. I believe replicating it requires two flaws and buying Iron will via Otoyugh Hole. If you're allowing all that, its not a low powered campaign.

It's still easy to do hundred of damage with a spell even without things like magical locations giving out feats. Plus, you don't want to always have to avoid certain enemies because you know the caster will one-shot kill everything. For example, if the caster abuses Enervation so he can grant 20 negative levels per shot, suddenly you're always facing undead or people immune to negative energy. How is THAT fun?

faceroll
2010-01-28, 04:10 PM
Well, first I'm going to say that your wording is a bit off. Maximized fireball is not a 6th level spell. Itís a 3rd level spell that takes a 6th level slot. Itís a very important distinction. For instance, as a 3rd level spell, it is still blocked by globe of invulnerability (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/spellsFtoG.html#globe-of-invulnerability). And it would also affect restrictions on the level of the spell.

Furthermore, part of the purpose of various metamagic reducers is to allow you to cast metamagicked spells you couldnít normally do. If you are capable of using Maximize Spell with only a +2 spell slot adjustment, you get to cast it using a 5th level spell slot. Period.

And, yeah, that includes Divine Metamagic.

That's how it works now; he is proposing a solution to fix the horrible, horrible things that come from the current system.


Aside:
It always struck me that Divine Metamagicís problem wasnít the feat itself so much as nightsticks. I rarely hear examples of abuse that donít involve using those to pay the necessary turn/rebuke uses. Without nightsticks, you still have a pretty good cap on how you can use Divine Metamagic.

Anyway, I think the best fix that allows us to maintain these feats' purpose and reign potential abuse in is the following:

Up the price of nightsticks or ban them altogether.
To each metamagic feat, add the following prerequisite:

Prerequisite: Ability to cast level <x> spells
Where <x> is equal to the featís spell slot adjustment. I always thought it was funny you could take a feat that requires a 4th level spell slot at 1st level.

Even without nightsticks, being able to persist even one or two spells, or quicken them, or chain them, is far too abusive. Having a feat chain that you virtually always take with a class is a pretty good indicator that something needs fixing.


Metamagic isn't as big a problem as people make it out to be. Sure, it's fairly powerful, but only a few specific feats are able to break the concept (Echo Spell, DMM, Residual Metamagic, etc. Note that only one of these is an actual Metamagic feat).

The real problem is the spells it can be applied to, and the number of feats you can apply to a single spell. Psions can only get 2 Metapsionic feats on a single power (pre-Epic), but casters can easily get 4 or 5. Limiting the number is a reasonable way to reduce abuse, but it still leaves a few gaps.

I agree that metamagic isn't the problem. Stacking metamagic feats isn't that big of a deal, because you'll rarely be able to get more than 2 or 3 pre-epic. The problem are the plethora of reducers out there.

The OP's proposed fix would basically make metamagic reducers a way to retain your higher level spell slots, not cast level 20 spells out of level 4 slots.


Am I the only one who doesn't actually see this as a problem?

I mean, lets face it, most of those options are difficult to get, or of very limited utility. Arcane Thesis is the single most powerful, but it only applies to one spell. One spell, no matter how awesome, is not good in every situation.

Things like the mailman build are incredibly feat intensive. I believe replicating it requires two flaws and buying Iron will via Otoyugh Hole. If you're allowing all that, its not a low powered campaign.

So you go with searing twin maximized empowered, and leave out the energy admixture & repeated. You're still doing hundreds of nearly unavoidable damage from a 4th level slot.

The real game breaker, though, are the 2nd and 3rd level abilities of the incantatrix. Getting to persist that many spells for free is insane, and about 100x more powerful than getting to pew pew with your lasers real good.

Douglas
2010-01-28, 04:13 PM
The real game breaker, though, are the 2nd and 3rd level abilities of the incantatrix. Getting to persist that many spells for free is insane, and about 100x more powerful than getting to pew pew with your lasers real good.
Indeed. To see the true potential of that ability, take a look at Team Solars in my sig. It's amazing how many different buff spells there are in 3.5e that all stack with each other.

faceroll
2010-01-28, 04:21 PM
Indeed. To see the true potential of that ability, take a look at Team Solars in my sig. It's amazing how many different buff spells there are in 3.5e that all stack with each other.

Yeah, I've had a peek at that. The mind reels.

Optimystik
2010-01-28, 04:25 PM
Honestly? I think you could fix a huge number of the issues by just getting rid of metamagic reducers and spellcasting as a swift or immediate action.

You need fast spells though - for example, Feather Fall, or Wings of Cover.

And removing the ability to stack metamagic just means that psionics are well and truly king.

mostlyharmful
2010-01-28, 04:36 PM
really stacking metas and reducers isn't that big a deal, it eats your feat slots and even if you don't use them you're still a tier 1 class. If a wizard builds themselves around being an Orbizard and then suddenly forgets to cast their one uber spell they've still got fullcasting to fall back on. If an incantatrix doesn't persist anything you can still stack buffs to the nth degree no problemmo.

The problem is the spells themselves, 3.5 casting is just flat broken if you want it to be, polymorph, Planer Binding, Celerity, Timestop, Shapechange, Glitterdust, Grease, Phantom Steed, Mindblank, Superior Invis, Ghostform, etc....

Fix meta-abuse you've cut down on one of a bajillion different OP options.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-28, 04:41 PM
It's still easy to do hundred of damage with a spell even without things like magical locations giving out feats. Plus, you don't want to always have to avoid certain enemies because you know the caster will one-shot kill everything. For example, if the caster abuses Enervation so he can grant 20 negative levels per shot, suddenly you're always facing undead or people immune to negative energy. How is THAT fun?

Um, seriously, a standard, vanilla d6/level nuke will do an average of 70 damage at level 20, without CL boosters. By level 20, CL boosters are ridiculously easy to obtain. Also, d6/level nukes are available at relatively low levels.

So, without mitigation at all, it's quite easy to crank out a couple hundred damage in a single nuke. There is extremely little difference between a couple hundred damage and infinite damage against most enemies, since frankly, they're gonna die either way. Alternatively, the caster could use a SoD, or simply abuse BC and have a beatstick chop it up. Single enemies without a variety of special rules(which ones depend on group) are nothing more than fodder at high levels. Metamagic reducers dont change this.

A feat chain that traditionally goes with a basic class might be an issue, yes. A PrC? No. I don't see metamagic reducers on every base class or in every build by any means. They're quite handy for some, yes. Not all.

Persist isn't actually that bad provided you're still using your spell slots to do it. Doing it for free via incantatrix is quite powerful. Doing it by blowing a literal pile of feats to make it eat only moderately powerful spell slots isn't nearly so big a deal.