The Lifeweaver [3.5 Base Class] (PEACH)

[Rauthiss]

The Lifeweaver
http://images.elfwood.com/art/d/a/dalamajere/unto_light_becomes_dark_copy_for_art_page.jpg
For every light, dark. For every dark, light.

There is a knowledge that all know, but few ever take advantage of - duality. Action and Reaction, Light and Dark, Life and Death - All twins, meant to be used together, not separated. Very few understand the way to manipulate these forces like the Lifeweaver. Typically gifted from an early age with a natural resonance for life energy, Lifeweavers have taken the ability that many have and expanded it into a skillful movement of life.

The life of a lifeweaver is a lonely one, in most cases. Unlike Clerics, who get their healing ability from the gods, or druids, who gain it from nature, Lifeweavers get it from other sources of life - they can only heal through hurting. This has resulted in many being outcast, except for those who have either hidden it well, or used their power against their enemies.

Inspiration: The duality between heal and inflict spells in D&D has always interested me, and I wanted to create a decent healer class that wasn't a cleric.

Game Rule Information

Alignment: Any. Most Lifeweavers tend toward neutral on the good-evil axis as a result of their opposing abilities, but chaos or law is a personal choice.
Hit Die: d8. A lifeweaver's handling of life energy builds up their body.
Starting Gold: As Cleric.

Class Skills:
The class skills for a Lifeweaver (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (N/A), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4+Int Mod) x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: (4+Int Mod)

The Lifeweaver
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Vim Abilities Known

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Lifeweave(1d4), Vim Abilities|1

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3||2

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|Far hand (10 ft.), Lifeweave(2d4)|2

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Minor Motion|3

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Lifeweave(3d4), Gift of Life|3

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5|Far hand (20 ft.), Lesser Vim abilities|4

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5|Lifeweave (4d4)|4

8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+2|
+6||5

9th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+3|
+6|Far hand (30 ft.), Lifeweave(5d4)|5

10th|
+7/+2|
+7|
+3|
+7|Greater Vim Abilities|6

11th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+3|
+7|Lifeweave (6d4)|6

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8|Medium Motion, Far hand (40 ft.)|7

13th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8|Lifeweave (7d4)|7

14th|
+10/+5|
+9|
+4|
+9||8

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+5|
+9|Far Hand (50 ft.), Lifeweave (8d4)|8

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Master Vim abilities|9

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Lifeweave (9d4)|9

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11|Greater Motion, Far Hand (60 ft.)|10

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11|Lifeweave(10d4)|10

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12|A Spectrum of Gray|11[/table]

Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Lifeweavers are proficient in the use of simple weapons. They are proficient in light and medium armor and light shields.

LifeWeave (Su): A Lifeweaver can move life energy around as he desires. With an unarmed touch attack, a lifeweaver can deal 1d4 + his WIS mod negative energy damage to an opponent. This damage increases by 1d4 every two levels past first, but the dice are optional. A 15th level Lifeweaver can choose to only inflict 1d4 damage, for example. Once life is sapped, the lifeweaver adds one point of vim to his vim pool per die, to a maximum of the victim's hit die.
A lifeweaver can, as a standard action, touch an ally and spend a number of vim points to heal the touched ally of 1d4 damage per vim point spent. If a lifeweaver can touch two or more creatures, he may both hurt and heal as a full-round action.

A Lifeweaver's vim pool can only hold a number of vim points equal to his class level at one time.If a lifeweaver's vim pool cannot hold any more vim, the lifeweaver is unable to perform any activities that would cause him to gain above his maximum until he or she spends the current vim. A Lifeweaver must spend 8 hours or the equivalent resting peacefully every day, or they become unable to use their lifeweave ability or hold vim points. At the end of this resting period, a lifeweaver's vim pool is half full, rounded down.

Any vim ability that is not lifeweave may only be used on an opponent once at a time. That is, if a 4th level Lifeweaver used Minor Motion on an opponent, he could not use Minor Motion on that opponent until the first has run out. Opposing Vim abilities cancel each other out.

Vim Abilities (Sp): As a Lifeweaver gains levels, they may learn pairs of vim abilities. Vim abilities that are the same as spells are used as a spell-like ability, cast as a cleric of the Lifeweaver's class level and with a saving throw of 10 + 1/2 the lifeweaver's class level + the lifeweaver's wisdom modifier. These abilities function similar to a Warlock's Invocations. Vim abilities, however, do not suffer from arcane spell failure. Least abilities add or subtract 1 vim, Lesser abilities add or subtract 4, Greater Abilities add or subtract 8, and Master abilities add or subtract 10.

Far Hand (Su): As a full round action, a Lifeweaver can use any Vim abilities at a distance as indicated in the chart. This is a ranged touch attack.

Minor Motion (Su): A Lifeweaver has further refined his arts, allowing him to drain one of an ability and boost another. With an unarmed touch attack, a lifeweaver may inflict a -4 penalty on one ability score of an opponent and add 4 vim to his pool. In addition, A lifeweaver may spend 4 vim to boost one of an ally’s ability scores by 4 as a standard action. Both of these abilities last for 1 minute. This may only lower an ability score to a minimum of 1.

Gift of Life (Su): A Lifeweaver gains his wisdom modifier as a bonus to all of his saves.

Medium Motion (Su): With an unarmed touch attack, a lifeweaver may inflict a -8 penalty on one ability score of an opponent and add 12 vim to his pool. In addition, A lifeweaver may spend 12 vim to boost one of an ally’s ability scores by 8 as a standard action. Both of these abilities last for 1 minute. This may only lower an ability score to a minimum of 1.

Greater Motion (Su): With an unarmed touch attack, a lifeweaver may inflict a -12 penalty on one ability score of an opponent and add 18 vim to his pool. In addition, A lifeweaver may spend 18 vim to boost one of an ally’s ability scores by 12 as a standard action. Both of these abilities last for 1 minute. This may only lower an ability score to a minimum of 1.

A Spectrum of Gray (Su): For a number of rounds per day equal to a Lifeweaver's Wisdom modifier, he may use vim abilities without any effect on his vim pool. These rounds need not be consecutive.

Vim Abilities:
{table]+ Vim|- Vim|Special Notes
Least||
Bane|Bless|Scale by +1 every 3 levels
Deeper Darkness|Daylight|
Calm Emotions|Rage|
Silence|Shatter|
Reduce Person|Enlarge Person|
Lesser||
Slow|Haste|
Crushing Despair|Good Hope|Scale by +1 every 4 levels
Enervation|Restoration|
Bestow Curse|Remove Curse|
Squandering|Saving|As Below ability
Unhallow|Hallow|
Greater||
Blasphemy|Holy Word|
Dictum|Word of Chaos|
Destruction|Resurrection|
Dispelling Hand|Eternal Hand|As Below Ability
Dimensional Lock|Ethereal Jaunt|
Master||
Mass Inflict Serious Wounds|Mass Cure Serious Wounds|
Energy Drain|True Ressurection|
Unholy Aura|Holy Aura|
Shield of Law|Cloak of Chaos|[/table]

Hand of Saving, Hand of Squandering: A Lifeweaver can control the life of an opponent, making him much stronger or weaker. With an unarmed touch attack, a lifeweaver may inflict a -4 penalty on all saves of an opponent and add vim to his pool. This penalty lasts for one minute.
In addition, a lifeweaver may spend vim to boost the DCs of an ally’s special abilities or spells by 4 as a standard action. This boost lasts until the beginning of the Lifeweaver's next turn.

Dispelling Hand, Eternal Hand: A lifeweaver may gain vim to cast Greater Dispel Magic. This functions as a spell-like ability of the Cleric spell of the same name, with a caster level equal to the Lifeweaver’s class level. In addition, a Lifeweaver may spend Vim to create a “shield” around an existing spell effect. If the shielded spell would be dispelled, the “shield” is dispelled instead of the spell effect. The "shield" is permanent until the shielded spell ends or it is dispelled.


(Image from http://www.elfwood.com/~dalamajere/Unto_Light_Becomes_Dark.2661769.html)

[jiriku]

Nice concept. I like the duality of the abilities and the manner in which a lifeweaver is constantly filling and discharging his vim pool. I also like the unlimited use of the abilities. It's sort of a like a clerical version of a warlock.

As a healing and support class, the lifeweaver lacks several fundamental abilities. It can't raise the dead, remove negative status effects, or heal ability damage. It has only a limited ability to improve AC and saving throws. With few multi-target abilities, this class will struggle to remain relevant against large groups of enemies.

From an overall playability perspective, the lifeweaver is mechanically forced to get close to enemies, but has negligible defenses and is not a credible melee threat. This is a death trap.

Looking at the abilities, you're pretty much all over the map. Some of the abilities are so small or specialized as to be near-useless, while many of the higher-level abilities break the game with no effort. The cooldown period before re-using an ability restricts abuse, but may leave low-level lifeweavers with nothing to do in combat. I'd recommend that you keep the duality concept and the vim pool, but extensively overhaul the granted abilities.

Lifeweave: My first impression is that a standard action to harm followed by another standard action to heal, especially in such small amounts, is a waste of actions. Consider allowing the character to harm and heal in the same action.

Hand of Bane, Hand of Bless: Meh. Alright at low levels, this ability quickly becomes obsolete.

Far Hand: A "range" of 5 feet is no range at all. That requires the enemy to be adjacent, which is effectively the same as a touch range. I'd recommend you double or triple these ranges, especially considering the lifeweaver's lack of defensive abilities. This class can't afford to stay in melee range for long. I was surprised not to see the range improve at level 18 on the chart. Was that merely an omission?

Minor Motion: If the ability penalty is uncapped, this is surprisingly powerful, as it can be used to incapacitate any monster with an Int less than 5. It's effective against mid-level casters too, since they'll lose bonus spells and may lose access to their highest-level spells. Could be balanced somewhat by specifying that the penalty can't reduce a stat below 1.

Hand of Day, Hand of Night: Meh. This will probably mostly see use as a cheap way to gain vim points.

Hand of Saving, Hand of Squandering: The debuff is useful for boss fights, but when it can only be active against one opponent at a time, its impact in typical encounters is limited. The buff to allied casters (+4 DC to all spells for one minute!) may be too powerful for the level at which it is granted.

Hallowed Hand, Unhallowed Hand: A useful SLA whose effectiveness is hamstrung by only being able to implant bane, bless, daylight, and deeper darkness.

Medium Motion: Extremely deadly against casters or those with a low ability score. This is effectively an auto-disable against anyone with a dump stat, provided the lifeweaver can guess the stat. Game-breaking. Could be balanced somewhat by specifying that the penalty can't reduce a stat below 1.

Dispelling Hand, Eternal Hand: Dispelling hand will see a lot of use. Eternal hand needs a duration.

Blaspheming Hand, Preaching Hand: Finally, an AoE attack, and a good one too. Not very useful in a typical adventuring party, however, as almost every party will include non-lawful, non-evil characters, making it impossible to use this ability without friendly fire. Would be better if you'd chosen holy word instead of dictum, but it would still be dangerous to use in most parties.

Greater Motion: All the game-breaking goodness of Medium Motion, except that you can now insta-gib anyone with a 12 stat or lower. Also grants a +6 to an allied caster's save DCs that stacks with the +4 from Saving/Squandering. Game-breaking. Could be balanced somewhat by specifying that the penalty can't reduce a stat below 1, but would still need some work, as the stacking of save DCs quickly renders monster saving throws irrelevant.

God's Hand: At-will wishes and miracles with no XP cost? This ability would be over-powered at level 30, let alone level 20. Game-breaking.

[Dante & Vergil]

People keep going on that Wishes and the like are broken, yet I hear that the spell goes by another name called Suicide. I wonder why that is...

[arguskos]

People keep going on that Wishes and the like are broken, yet I hear that the spell goes by another name called Suicide. I wonder why that is...
If you ask for something that Wish can explicitly grant, you're fine. If your DM jacks it up, he's being a **** for no reason. And yes, Wish/Miracle is brokenly powerful.

As for the Lifeweaver, I'm impressed. It's a fun and unique take on a healer, one I really enjoy. I do have a question though: why are they called vim points? Is this a reference I don't get?

[Eurus]

Vim: lively or energetic spirit; enthusiasm; vitality. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Vim)

I do think that the ability to cast any cleric, druid or sorc/wiz spell as an SLA is potentially overpowered. True Rez or Planar Binding with no cost, Gate or Wish with no XP, and even spells without material components can be pretty mean. Plus they're completely spontaneous and cast from almost any list, so they'd always have the right spell for the moment.

[Dante & Vergil]

If you ask for something that Wish can explicitly grant, you're fine. If your DM jacks it up, he's being a **** for no reason. And yes, Wish/Miracle is brokenly powerful.

As for the Lifeweaver, I'm impressed. It's a fun and unique take on a healer, one I really enjoy. I do have a question though: why are they called vim points? Is this a reference I don't get?

True, you could ask for things with Wish that can't be messed with, and if your DM does anyway, he's a jerk, to put it lightly, unfortunately that happens with people gaming with others that they wouldn't know otherwise, they can end up with a mean DM that will do that sort of thing, even on a regular basis.

As for the class, it is pretty neat. You may want to keep the experience cost to spells though.

[Flickerdart]

I read "Hand of Bless" as "Hand of Bees". This would have been an awesome ability.

[Rauthiss]

Thank you all for your responses - To get such a pleasant response from my first attempt at publishing homebrew is heartening, especially you, jiriku. It's nice to get a detailed review like that.
Going through your post in order:

More advanced healing abilities were something I really worried about - I wasn't sure how to balance some of the healing (true Res, for example) More on a possible fix to that later. As for multi target abilities, I'm not quite sure what to do for that. Maybe something like Wis mod times/day, turn your lifeweave into an eldritch doom-like ability?

Melee vs. Ranged - I wasn't quite sure what to do here - I felt that giving armor and a better BAB would make it too similar to a cleric. Perhaps simply giving armor proficiency?

Letting a Lifeweaver heal and hurt at the same time is probably a good idea, come to think of it. I think I might just add that in.

Hand of Bane and Hand of Bless are really questionable. Perhaps making them scale better would help?

Far hand - I think I might double the range. As for no 18th level expansion, that was an oversight.

Minor Motion - I think this is more a case of poor wording than anything. The lines "Any vim ability that is not lifeweave may only be used on an opponent once at a time. That is, if a 3rd level Lifeweaver used Hand of Bane on an opponent, He could not use Hand of Bane on that opponent until the first has run out. Opposing Vim abilities cancel each other out." are meant to specify that I can only use Motion once on a single enemy, but on multiple enemies. An example, since this is probably more clear - Lif Eweaver (that is a name) is fighting 3 goblins. He can use minor motion on each of the goblins once, and buff 3 allies once each. He CANNOT use minor motion on one goblin 3 times. Is there a better way to word this, you think? Either way, an ability floor of 1 would probably be a logical addition.

Hand of Day, Hand of Night - Yay, More opposites. This isn't too important, I might drop it.

Hand of Saving, Hand of Squandering - I was worried that the buff might be too powerful. Maybe if it only boosted the DC of one spell? Also see the notes on motion - You can have this affect multiple opponents at once.

Hallowed Hand, Unhallowed Hand - More on this later.

Medium Motion - See Minor Motion

Dispelling Hand, Eternal Hand - I was looking for a fitting opposite to dispelling magic for this, so I went with the first thing I thought of- a dispel shield. Is that ability overpowered if Eternal Hand has no duration - it's permanent, as long as the spell effect is there?

Blaspheming Hand, Preaching Hand - Whoops, I meant for that to be holy word.

Greater Motion - See other motions.

God's Hand - "Crap, I need a capstone! Uhhh..." was basically my thought process here. I think I might give it at a lower level, drop druid off the list of possible spells, and give it something like "The lifeweaver must pay all costs, XP or otherwise, normally associated with casting the spell". Remember, too, that it is limited to your Wis mod times/day. Would that be more balanced? If I do that, however, I'm gonna need a new capstone.

[jiriku]

Throw in rez abilities, sure! I mean, after all, what does the DM do if the party can't manage its own resurrections? He provides an NPC to cast that stuff for them. Resurrection is a plot device really, not an ability that adds to the power of a character. Likewise, the ability to remove negative levels and ability damage is important, or the party's going to be feeling a little butt-hurt when they get torn up by undead and the lifeweaver says "Sorry guys, can't help you!".

Armor proficiency would be good. Actual defensive powers would be better. Perhaps some sort of karmic ability whereby the lifeweaver can gain vim as an immediate action to heal/gain DR/gain save bonuses/gain immunities or expend vim as an immediate action to deal backlash damage/activate spell turning/reflect the attack.

Bane/Bless: Scaling this would keep it relevant. Look at bardic music for a similar ability.

Motion: OK, I get it. Now that I understand, I like the way you're handling that.

Day/Night: This is fine really. Just doesn't go far enough. Daylight is a poor utility effect, and darkness is a poor debuff. Something like good hope/crushing despair or haste/slow or bull's strength/escalating enfeeblement would add more direct muscle to the class.

Saving/Squandering: Affecting one spell, or reducing the buff duration to one full round, is more reasonable. This is still pretty damn powerful outside of combat, but when you have to spend an action to enhance one spell, now you're considering when that's the most valuable use of your action, rather than it being a no-brainer to do this on every allied caster at the beginning of every combat.

Dispelling/Eternal: Permanent is fine. Heck, many encounters don't even include monsters capable of dispelling, so on some adventuring days, the ability might not have any impact at all.

God's Hand: Paying all costs will be a big help to balance, but you're still stuck with the fact that you have the ability to spontaneously cast every spell in any book allowed at the table 10+ times per day. Even removing the druid list has very little impact as the lifeweaver can just use miracle to duplicate any druid spell of 7th level or lower. The ability also lacks the clear duality of the earlier powers: arcane and divine spells are not opposing forces. I'd suggest you scrub this ability entirely and include a different, powerful duality-based effect.


Not necessarily addressing god's hand, but more for the class in general, here are some interesting duality-based powers you might consider adding:

swap locations with target (benign transposition or mutual teleport)
swap base ability scores with target
swap hit point totals with target (excess hit points above maximum become temporary hit points)
swap thoughts with target (as sending or rary's telepathic bond)
swap memories with target (effectively you both gain detect thoughts on each other)
swap bodies with target (each of you is polymorphed into the other)
raise dead/slay living
resurrection/destruction
transfer spells from one valid target to another
karmic refusal (as antimagic field)

Mostly you need MOAR OPTIONS! Right now you have a good 10-level prestige class, stretched out across 20 levels. Don't be afraid to stomp on the gas pedal when it comes to giving the class new, interesting things to do.

For example, maybe you could increase the options by 50% by taking each black/white power and adding a "grey" shade. By this I mean that your powers currently all follow the pattern of Buff Ally/Debuff Foe. Instead, consider a pattern of Buff Ally/Buff Self/Debuff Foe. Adding a middle way could work, especially if you make that "Buff Self" option a two-edged sword that provides a harmful side effect along with its helpful benefit.

[Rauthiss]

Current Fixes, for review:

More armor proficiencies: Medium armor and light shields.

Streamline Vim system - instead of having all these hand crap, group vim like invocations and have them learned like invocations: Least, Lesser, Greater, Master.
In addition to making things easier to streamline, this should allow for a degree of customization between different Lifeweavers.

Damage/Heal would be default.

{table]+ Vim|- Vim|Special Notes
Least||
Bane|Bless|Scale by +1 every 3 levels
Deeper Darkness|Daylight|
Calm Emotions|Rage|
Silence|Shatter|
Reduce Person|Enlarge Person|
Lesser||
Slow|Haste|
Good Hope|Crushing Despair|Scale by +1 every 4 levels
Deeper Darkness|Daylight|
Restoration|Enervation|
Remove Curse|Bestow Curse|
Squandering|Saving|As original ability
Unhallow|Hallow|
Greater||
Blasphemy|Holy Word|
Word of Chaos|Dictum|
Resurrection|Destruction|
Dispelling Hand|Eternal Hand|As Original Ability
Dimensional Lock|Ethereal Jaunt|
Master||
Mass Inflict Serious Wounds|Mass Cure Serious Wounds|
True Resurrection|Energy Drain|
Unholy Aura|Holy Aura|
Cloak of Chaos|Shield of Law|[/table]


Meanwhile, while they gain these invocation-like abilities, I was thinking other abilities could be gained. I like some of your suggestions...

Benign Transposition / Translocation trick (4th level)
Base ability score swap (6th level)
Swap Hit point total (8th Level)
Swap bodies (16th Level)
Move spell effects (12th Level)

The ability to spend Vim to gain DR or energy resistance and then gain Vim to give an opponent vulnerability to damage/energy is intriguing. Would doubling the Warlock's DR progression and making it Vim-based be appropriate?

For a capstone, I'm trying to decide if the ability to ignore the Vim pool restrictions for wis score rounds/day would be too much.

Again, jiriku, I'd like to wholeheartedly thank you for your time and advice.

[Fizban]

I didn't get very far in this class before noticing something that I must be wrong about , or everyone else would have got there first: It takes one standard action to gain one point of vim. You high level abilities require so many vim points you'd have to restrain an enemy and drain them over a full minute in order to get one use of an ability, let along a generous 1 ability/encounter. Wish at will is hardly broken when you can't actually use it.

[Rauthiss]

@Fizban - That would be an error on my part. Fixed now.

Bump for review.

[Melayl]

While I can't really think of anything to add past jiriku's already good suggestions, I do want to say that I really like the concept for this class and what you're doing with it. Keep it up!

[The Tygre]

Capstone ability still in the works, I presume? Any ideas on it, yet?

[Dante & Vergil]

I say keep the old capstone, but make it as if actually casting the spells as spells, instead of spell-like abilities.

[JKTrickster]

Wow I must say this is an amazing class! I really don't have much to add, but I'm thinking on how to make another "dual" capstone ability. Perhaps when I get back to you, I'll have something in the works :smallwink:

But regardless, you really did a great job here (and first time nevertheless!). I really envy your creativity :smallamused:

[Rauthiss]

Bump. If someone could possibly look over my fix here, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7796427&postcount=10) it would be greatly appreciated.

[DracoDei]

Ok, the very very first thing I would say is to remember that animals exist. Don't worry, if anyone HAS remembered this when designing a "Take from one to give to another" mechanic I can't recall it off-hand.

Implications: Consider the possibility of a first level character carrying around a bunch of crickets. Not necessarily imbalanced, especially at lower levels, but since, no matter how high level you get, you can completely refill your vim off of 2 crickets(since the amount of overkill doesn't matter), this does have the effect similar to the difference between a sorcerer and a warlock and I am not sure if you balance for it. A small limit might be the amount of vim you can gain off a creature to its current* hitpoints divided by 4 (IE the damage you could deal to it and still leave it conscious) perhaps with a minimum of 1 if you want to allow the cage of crickets trick. A stricter limit would be to limit it to the total hit-dice of the creature, but in certain 1st level scenarios this would leave you unable to charge off your foes almost at all.

*(positive, so not including the 10 points below zero)

On a related note, in many cultures, food animals would be a perfectly acceptable target to kill to heal more people per day. Granted it does seem a bit "suspicious" to be draining the health out of chickens, but (neutral aligned) people will generally make certain allowances for the process that stops their arm from hurting horribly. One thing that would tip this balance, especially if you can't use crickets and worms and such is that it is a bit cruel to the animal if you aren't high enough level to be certain of one-shoting them, but since I assume you can coup-de-grace with it, then it shouldn't be any worse than using a dagger to rather than a two-handed axe to do your slaughtering. Of course, if you are foolish enough NOT to give Minor Motion the "to a minimum of 1" clause that jiriku suggested, then once you get that ability, you can always KO the creature with INT damage, then drain them dry.



Since this guy lives on touch attacks, strongly considering giving him Medium BAB. If you think that would be too much of a gimme at high levels, then give him Weapon Focus(Touch Attack) at first level so that he has a better chance of hitting at low levels, but isn't auto-hitting at higher levels.

Similarly, I would at least give him the clerics ability to use heavy shields to improve survivability until they get Far Hand (while I LOVE non-standard abilities where they are flavorful and add something either to the fluff or play tactic, this feels like none of the above). Heavy armor is expensive enough most characters don't need the option at level 1, but a suit of Banded mail could be pretty key to getting through level 2... and until level 2 any 10' tall creature, or NPC with a reach weapon is going to ruin your day. OTOH, since they don't have a casting stat they MUST pump to be effective, they can give greater precedence to Dexterity and/or Constitution.

I was going to say you should give them Good fortitude saves, until I saw Gift of Life (not that that will probably ever be as good).

Why did you give them Speak Language and Use Magic Device? Not BAD choices, but a little odd. UMD is powerful, but since it is the only way they can get access to clerical scrolls and such...


Speaking of scrolls, an interesting feat might be one that allows them to use a [Healing] spell to grant themselves 2 points of vim for every 5 points of healing it would otherwise do*... come to that maybe it should just be

* Or 1 for 2.5 if you are like me in your love for mathematically correct mechanics. In either case it is mechanically equivalent to cutting the middle-man out of damaging an ally and then using the scroll on them.


I strongly recommend having the standard reversal of curative/damaging effects on Undead creatures. Given the themes of the class, you could even reverse the vim gained/lost effects of most or all of their touch attacks.


Saving/Squandering: I was expecting the Saving part to boost an allies saves, not make the allies attacks more potent. If you stack these, you get a total of an 8 point shift to the save, which is huge. Granted you only get 1 minute to work with for the positive effect, if you aren't using it in battle (and thus spending two rounds), but still... The name is misleading, but worth it for aesthetic reasons. I would stick the word "hand" back on the end of it just to avoid semantic confusions with the word "Saving" as in "saving throw".


Speaking of the chart, Bold the names of the various levels (Least, Lesser, Greater, Master, etc). I also think that they should get a LOT of picks, since it is nasty for the entire party if they run into something that the healer can't rectify, even the next day (which is the REASON clerics and druids automatically get their entire spell lists, despite the unfortunate repercussions of that). (EDIT^2, but see my suggestion for dealing with this problem.)


Eternal Hand - Very very powerful for protecting key buffs... look for high level parties to be using this on every buff that they start the adventuring day by casting while abusing making arguably appropriate use of cows that the have a hireling who stays back base-camp caring for. Come to that, the average of 35 damage to recharge you might be well worth it to the barbarian to renew the protection on the Death Ward if that gets dispelled while cleaning out the nest of high-level necromancers. More cheesy parties might buy the fighter a Ring of Regeneration... well, if 3.5 hadn't so completely nerfed that item. OOPS! You can just throw a few Deeper Darknesses around to recharge! Would be broken if it weren't limited to 1 per target, and creatures (rather than locations) only. Still very powerful. Certainly anything one spell that gets Permanency-ed would be a gimme to hire an NPC to perform this effect on and repeat whenever you got back into town if it took the hit for the spell.

Caster level 14 minimum (and not much reason to go higher since you actually WANT it to be behind the effect it is protecting in the order that things get checked for dispel)
Effect level 6 (same as for Dispel Magic, Greater).

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/icons/icon2.gif14*60 = cost (based on table HERE (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell)).
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/icons/icon2.gif840 gp to protect an investment of 500 XPs MINIMUM... WELL worth it. This isn't necessarily a BAD thing, just something to consider. If you don't like it, just limit the duration to 1/hour per class level or a flat 24 hours or something like that.

EDIT: I would consider adding (even if via a feat) an ability that allows for EITHER gaining vim by Rebuking/Commanding Undead, OR spending vim to Turn/Destroy undead. It is unlimited per day, but you do have to keep track of your vim to do it. Almost certainly do NOT allow this to fuel divine metamagic.

EDIT^2: I recommend putting in an AoE version of the first level ability to emulate the effectiveness of Cure Light/Moderate/Serious/Critical Wounds, Mass series. This could be something you get automatically, or something you have to pick as one of your abilities. Also, you should consider giving them all the abilities on your list that are listed as (harmless) automatically, and giving them a FEW picks of the more offensive abilities... that way you work around the objection that people have to the way clerics do their spell-lists.



Well... I think that covers a first run-through of the class and SOME all of the preceding comments...

[Apropos]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but the whole reason people don't like that one spell that does a bunch of damage to dex that I cant remember for the life of me is because of how rigged it was.

-12 to an ability score is pretty powerful. Just saying.

[DracoDei]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but the whole reason people don't like that one spell that does a bunch of damage to dex that I cant remember for the life of me is because of how rigged it was.

-12 to an ability score is pretty powerful. Just saying.

Yeah, he basically said he was going to eliminate that (because it isn't in the chart in a later post). He just hasn't figured out how he is going to go about it exactly I don't think, so the original post hasn't been edited with it yet.

[Rauthiss]

DracoDei has it in one - I'm avoiding actual changes to the class in the first post until I can get more feedback. Is -12 to an ability score that powerful (comparatively) at 18th level? I play high level games very rarely, so I'm not as good at balance at those levels.


Ok, the very very first thing I would say is to remember that animals exist. Don't worry, if anyone HAS remembered this when designing a "Take from one to give to another" mechanic I can't recall it off-hand.

Implications: Consider the possibility of a first level character carrying around a bunch of crickets. Not necessarily imbalanced, especially at lower levels, but since, no matter how high level you get, you can completely refill your vim off of 2 crickets(since the amount of overkill doesn't matter), this does have the effect similar to the difference between a sorcerer and a warlock and I am not sure if you balance for it. A small limit might be the amount of vim you can gain off a creature to its current* hitpoints divided by 4 (IE the damage you could deal to it and still leave it conscious) perhaps with a minimum of 1 if you want to allow the cage of crickets trick. A stricter limit would be to limit it to the total hit-dice of the creature, but in certain 1st level scenarios this would leave you unable to charge off your foes almost at all.

*(positive, so not including the 10 points below zero)

On a related note, in many cultures, food animals would be a perfectly acceptable target to kill to heal more people per day. Granted it does seem a bit "suspicious" to be draining the health out of chickens, but (neutral aligned) people will generally make certain allowances for the process that stops their arm from hurting horribly. One thing that would tip this balance, especially if you can't use crickets and worms and such is that it is a bit cruel to the animal if you aren't high enough level to be certain of one-shoting them, but since I assume you can coup-de-grace with it, then it shouldn't be any worse than using a dagger to rather than a two-handed axe to do your slaughtering. Of course, if you are foolish enough NOT to give Minor Motion the "to a minimum of 1" clause that jiriku suggested, then once you get that ability, you can always KO the creature with INT damage, then drain them dry.

Hm, you're right. I totally forgot that. I think limiting the vim gained from something by its Hit Dice might be the best idea there. I will be giving Minor Motion (And all following motions) the minimum of 1 clause.




Since this guy lives on touch attacks, strongly considering giving him Medium BAB. If you think that would be too much of a gimme at high levels, then give him Weapon Focus(Touch Attack) at first level so that he has a better chance of hitting at low levels, but isn't auto-hitting at higher levels.

Similarly, I would at least give him the clerics ability to use heavy shields to improve survivability until they get Far Hand (while I LOVE non-standard abilities where they are flavorful and add something either to the fluff or play tactic, this feels like none of the above). Heavy armor is expensive enough most characters don't need the option at level 1, but a suit of Banded mail could be pretty key to getting through level 2... and until level 2 any 10' tall creature, or NPC with a reach weapon is going to ruin your day. OTOH, since they don't have a casting stat they MUST pump to be effective, they can give greater precedence to Dexterity and/or Constitution.

A Medium BAB would work, but I feared similarity to a cleric. I think we can agree that this is not-clericy enough, though, so Medium BAB will probably happen. Same with shields and up to medium armor.

As for the flavor of everything, that's in progress.



I was going to say you should give them Good fortitude saves, until I saw Gift of Life (not that that will probably ever be as good).
Would giving them good fort saves be broken?



Why did you give them Speak Language and Use Magic Device? Not BAD choices, but a little odd. UMD is powerful, but since it is the only way they can get access to clerical scrolls and such...
Not sure why speak language, UMD for the reasons you stated.



Speaking of scrolls, an interesting feat might be one that allows them to use a [Healing] spell to grant themselves 2 points of vim for every 5 points of healing it would otherwise do*... come to that maybe it should just be

* Or 1 for 2.5 if you are like me in your love for mathematically correct mechanics. In either case it is mechanically equivalent to cutting the middle-man out of damaging an ally and then using the scroll on them.
I'd consider that, actually. I like that. At this point, though, I'm working on the class itself. Feat support comes later. And yes, I love mathematically correct mechanics.



I strongly recommend having the standard reversal of curative/damaging effects on Undead creatures. Given the themes of the class, you could even reverse the vim gained/lost effects of most or all of their touch attacks.
True, true.



Saving/Squandering: I was expecting the Saving part to boost an allies saves, not make the allies attacks more potent. If you stack these, you get a total of an 8 point shift to the save, which is huge. Granted you only get 1 minute to work with for the positive effect, if you aren't using it in battle (and thus spending two rounds), but still... The name is misleading, but worth it for aesthetic reasons. I would stick the word "hand" back on the end of it just to avoid semantic confusions with the word "Saving" as in "saving throw".

Hmm... Hand of Skillfulness, perhaps? I agree, the word is a bit of a misnomer.



Speaking of the chart, Bold the names of the various levels (Least, Lesser, Greater, Master, etc). I also think that they should get a LOT of picks, since it is nasty for the entire party if they run into something that the healer can't rectify, even the next day (which is the REASON clerics and druids automatically get their entire spell lists, despite the unfortunate repercussions of that). (EDIT^2, but see my suggestion for dealing with this problem.)
Formatting errors, bleh.

I agree on the lot of picks option.



Eternal Hand - Very very powerful for protecting key buffs... look for high level parties to be using this on every buff that they start the adventuring day by casting while abusing making arguably appropriate use of cows that the have a hireling who stays back base-camp caring for. Come to that, the average of 35 damage to recharge you might be well worth it to the barbarian to renew the protection on the Death Ward if that gets dispelled while cleaning out the nest of high-level necromancers. More cheesy parties might buy the fighter a Ring of Regeneration... well, if 3.5 hadn't so completely nerfed that item. OOPS! You can just throw a few Deeper Darknesses around to recharge! Would be broken if it weren't limited to 1 per target, and creatures (rather than locations) only. Still very powerful. Certainly anything one spell that gets Permanency-ed would be a gimme to hire an NPC to perform this effect on and repeat whenever you got back into town if it took the hit for the spell.

Caster level 14 minimum (and not much reason to go higher since you actually WANT it to be behind the effect it is protecting in the order that things get checked for dispel)
Effect level 6 (same as for Dispel Magic, Greater).

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/icons/icon2.gif14*60 = cost (based on table HERE (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell)).
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/icons/icon2.gif840 gp to protect an investment of 500 XPs MINIMUM... WELL worth it. This isn't necessarily a BAD thing, just something to consider. If you don't like it, just limit the duration to 1/hour per class level or a flat 24 hours or something like that.

I'll probably keep it permanent.



EDIT: I would consider adding (even if via a feat) an ability that allows for EITHER gaining vim by Rebuking/Commanding Undead, OR spending vim to Turn/Destroy undead. It is unlimited per day, but you do have to keep track of your vim to do it. Almost certainly do NOT allow this to fuel divine metamagic.
Probably either a feat or a vim ability.

[quote]
EDIT^2: I recommend putting in an AoE version of the first level ability to emulate the effectiveness of Cure Light/Moderate/Serious/Critical Wounds, Mass series. This could be something you get automatically, or something you have to pick as one of your abilities. Also, you should consider giving them all the abilities on your list that are listed as (harmless) automatically, and giving them a FEW picks of the more offensive abilities... that way you work around the objection that people have to the way clerics do their spell-lists.[QUOTE]
Again, perhaps as a vim ability? Maybe give them enough picks to have all of the harmless ones, then some offensive ones?

Thank you very much for the input, DD. I appreciate the time that you took!

[DracoDei]

Maybe give them enough picks to have all of the harmless ones, then some offensive ones?
Just be aware you are making it all-to possible for less experienced players to get the entire party in serious trouble by using this option.

[Dante & Vergil]

Tomb-Tainted Soul or being undead with this class makes life wonderful.

[DracoDei]

To pick up a point I neglected to respond to, yes, I think Good Fortitude saves are in order here.

[ForzaFiori]

Ok, the very very first thing I would say is to remember that animals exist. Don't worry, if anyone HAS remembered this when designing a "Take from one to give to another" mechanic I can't recall it off-hand.

Implications: Consider the possibility of a first level character carrying around a bunch of crickets. Not necessarily imbalanced, especially at lower levels, but since, no matter how high level you get, you can completely refill your vim off of 2 crickets(since the amount of overkill doesn't matter), this does have the effect similar to the difference between a sorcerer and a warlock and I am not sure if you balance for it. A small limit might be the amount of vim you can gain off a creature to its current* hitpoints divided by 4 (IE the damage you could deal to it and still leave it conscious) perhaps with a minimum of 1 if you want to allow the cage of crickets trick. A stricter limit would be to limit it to the total hit-dice of the creature, but in certain 1st level scenarios this would leave you unable to charge off your foes almost at all.

*(positive, so not including the 10 points below zero)


why not use HD, but put a lower limit of 1 on it? so you still get 1 vim from a 1/8th HD monster, but when you hit a 4 HD monster, you can get 4 vim.

[Corporate M]

I like it alot. Definitelly a good monk alternative.

[Kushōsaku]

Nice concept overall. What I don't really get is on which basis you decided to assign some of the revised abilities to the +/- vim categories. As I understood it, you gain vim by taking (life) energy from another being (e.g. damage/penalties) or from the environment (e.g. darkness = taking away light). Vice versa giving (life) energy (e.g. healing/blessings/creating light) reduces your vim pool. Sounds logical, however, I can't really see that idea represented in the pairings I put italics:



{table]+ Vim|- Vim
Least|
Bane|Bless
Deeper Darkness|Daylight
Calm Emotions|Rage
Silence|Shatter
Reduce Person|Enlarge Person
Lesser|
Slow|Haste|
Good Hope|Crushing Despair
Deeper Darkness|Daylight
Restoration|Enervation
Remove Curse|Bestow Curse
Squandering|Saving
Unhallow|Hallow
Greater|
Blasphemy|Holy Word
Word of Chaos|Dictum
Resurrection|Destruction
Dispelling Hand|Eternal Hand
Dimensional Lock|Ethereal Jaunt
Master|
Mass Inflict Serious Wounds|Mass Cure Serious Wounds
True Resurrection|Energy Drain
Unholy Aura|Holy Aura
Cloak of Chaos|Shield of Law[/table]


I mean, "energy drain" literally has the taking away in its name, and how could anything correspond better to the give life energy-theme than "resurrection"? Do you rather interpret it as taking death away? :smallconfused:
I agree with assigning "calm emotions", "slow" and "silence" to the + category, as you take something away (agitation, momentum, sound). However, I'd also associate these effects more with Law than with Chaos... you make things more orderly, more constraint. Their opposites "rage", "haste" and "shatter" seem appropriately entropic. Yet still you assigned the Law-effects to the - category and the Chaos-effects to + category. Seems like a contradiction to me, somehow.
If you treat "rage" as an inspired emotion and thus a giving effect, I'd do the same for "good hope"... thou one might argue that inspiring hope is also taking fear... thats what dualism is all about, I suppose. Healing could be interpreted as taking away damage and hurting as giving pain. Yet I guess the general convention is rather to see damage as taking away life... quite a tricky issue, therefore I'd be consistent in your stead and stick to a more positive theme for the giving (- vim) effects.
Due to this same ambivalence, you probably chose to make "restoration" a + vim effect, because ability damage or negative levels are taken away. But erasing something negative should IMHO not add to your vim pool... otherwise you'd be able to take negative levels and use that energy to heal someone. This might give the impression that the lifeweaver is not only able to cannel and redistribute energy, but also convert it from negative to positive. Same goes for "remove curse".

Thus my advice would be to just flip the marked pairs around and you'll be fine. The class is called lifeweaver, not shadowwaever, thus what he gives and creates should be based on positive energy, and when he takes it away from someone, it leaves "a hole" of negative energy and darkness behind. Having a closer look at the concept of yin and yang might be helpful to keep consistency. I feel yin would correspond well to your + vim (taking) and yang nicely to your - vim (giving).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Duality_%28CoP%29.png
You could further add "Chaos" and "Agitated" to yang and "Law" and "Calm" to yin.

BTW "reduce person" and "enlarge person" seem a bit odd compared to the others.

For your capstone: I wouldn't recommend "wish" or similar ultimate spell mimicry. Try to stay true to the dualistic nature of this class. The capstone should be the ultimate embodiment of that idea.
How about some direct retribution: Whoever deals physical damage to the lifeweaver in melee takes the same amount? Probably not powerful enough as a capstone, but might be the basis for something. :smallbiggrin:
Or how about spontaneous antimagic: If a spell is cast on the lifeweaver, he can spend it's level in vim to neutralize it (if it has a negative effect) or absorb it and add it's level to his vim pool (if it has a positive effect). Only works if there's still enough points/capacity. If not the spell is only cancelled with a chance equalling the percentage that could be brought up/absorbed. Of course you'd need to find a general way of applying your +/- categorization to all magic there is. :smalleek:

[Rauthiss]

Kuso - Yeah, you're right. That's what happens when you throw together a list at 1 in the morning. If I adopt that system, I'll shift the ones you indicated around. As for enlarge/reduce person, that's the result of going through spell compendium/PHB and looking for any spells that were opposites. :P

Still running dry on capstone ideas that really speak to me, which is the real problem there. :/

[Kushōsaku]

Maybe the yin/yang thing can also be used for a capstone... No idea how right now, thou ^^

And to support you in the decision making: I'd really advise you to use the Warlok-like system for your special abilities. It will make each lifeweaver more unique.

[Meirnon]

I agree with Kushō in most areas. I can't think of anything negative I'd point out to the ideas he has, but there are things I would add, such as a way to balance out the Darkness vim+ ability.

I suggest a way to make sure Vim doesn't last very long... a round or two at most. Or just reduce the vim+/- of darkness light and other effects that don't require a subject to be damaged. I'm not sure how to balance it, though, and it'll require some thought. I also think that, with a willing party member, someone can do timed, nonlethal effects like Bane over and over in order to heal party members or do high-level vim- abilities.

It's a great concept, and it'll take some working to balance out. By no means get discouraged, as the vim+/- is something not even I could have thought of, and I homebrew most of my stuff. It's a great, original thought, and don't be afraid to set up some arbitrary rules or actually create spells to go along with the theme.

[Rauthiss]

Thank you for the Input, Meirnon. Seems like you've gone on a Jacarath's Base Classes binge.

I think Limited vim holding time is a good idea in theory, but to do so, you'd need to track when you got every point of vim you stored. I think in the long run, just letting vim stay there works.

[Rauthiss]

DoublePostBump

The Lifeweaver is now Invocation style based. Please comment on them as you see fit.

[Tacitus]

The Daylight/D.Darkness is both Least and Lesser.

[Rauthiss]

The Daylight/D.Darkness is both Least and Lesser.
Hm, so it is. *fixes*

[Tacitus]

Also, I might suggest slowing down Vimvocation progression down to Dragonfire Adept speed. It'd have to see playtesting though.

You might want to specify that the rounds of Shade of Gray need or need not be consecutive. Assuming not, but still.

[Rauthiss]

Also, I might suggest slowing down Vimvocation progression down to Dragonfire Adept speed. It'd have to see playtesting though.
Agreed. I want to see how this plays.

You might want to specify that the rounds of Shade of Gray need or need not be consecutive. Assuming not, but still.
You assume correctly, sir.
Tencharacters.

[Tacitus]

So, looking over it some more, the Rez Vimvocations are just... well, they are spell-like, so they ignore material components. Yeah, you take up a Vimvocation slot for it, but the ability to drop a spell worth 25k at the drop of a hat?

Also, does learning a new grade of Vimvocation allow you to retrain a previous one like Invocations?

To be clear, do the casting times of the spells take precedent or do they cast as Invocations, which have Standard Action casting times?

And to be honest, with a good Wisdom, Wis to all Saves, and bits of existing fluff 'building up the body,' I don't see why Fort isn't their good save. Will is going to be insane as is. At 4th level their will save is +10, assuming Wis 15+1 Stat Point and no items, which gets much higher very fast.

Don't know if it has been addressed, but is there anything preventing a Lifeweaver from targeting herself for any Vimvocation or class feature?

[Zexion]

I like the Vim abilities. Pretty cool. You might want to have a cancel-each-other-out thing to use when two Lifeweavers of + and - meet.

[Tacitus]

Isn't that called counterspelling? Or do you mean like they can provide the diametrically opposed effect on a subject to dispel and +/- Vim appropriately (which it already does)?

[Zexion]

I mean that they cancel each other out, and cause really weird screw-ups in the universe. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

[Tacitus]

So you are suggesting turning a base class into potential extraplanar space portable hole disaster?

[Tacitus]

Why Listen by not Spot?
No Spellcraft?

Feat idea, a bonus to VimCap, modeled after Bonus Essentia. Minimum level requirement and only 1 or 2 bonus.

Assuming Extra Invocation applies?

[Rauthiss]

No Spot is a mistake. As for no spellcraft, the class really had no need of it before vimvocations. I'll add it now.

I'd like to save feats for when I'm confident in the quality of the class. That said, it's a nice idea for a feat.

Sure, Extra Invocation will work for now. I plan to make Extra Vim Ability a feat, but Extra invocation can act as it until I get around to actually making the feats.

EDIT: Also updated your BAB and Fort Save.

[Tacitus]

When dealing negative energy damage to gain Vim, does it have to be to a foe?

Do you gain/lose 1 Vim per d4 or just when you do it?

Potential problem: injure self for 1d4 and heal ally for Xd4. Out of combat this isn't much of a problem because you could just be spamming D.Darkness to get Vim to heal allies, but in combat taking a full round action to take a measly 1d4 to heal an ally for 10d4 each round every round could turn the right encounter into something silly, especially if you UMD a wand of Vigor to help ignore the 1d4 every round.

Its not game breaking by any means, but unlimited healing is somewhat rare.

[Rauthiss]

Damage to gain Vim: No, it does not.

it is 1 vim per die of damage/healing - "Once life is sapped, the lifeweaver adds one point of vim to his vim pool per die, to a maximum of the victim's hit dice."

[Tacitus]

Right, I must have read that 4 times and it just kinda bounced off every time. XD

And hmm... that means that if you're taking on mobs your pool won't be going up very fast at all...

Also, am I to assume that fractional HD creatures count as 1HD for the purpose of Vim gain?

[Rauthiss]

Yes. Against masses of creatures, your vimvocations are probably the better way to go.

[Tacitus]

If a target Saves against a single target Vimvocation, do you still get the Vim point? Say... Bane, Will Negates. If they negate it, does that negate the Vim Point?

[Rauthiss]

If a target Saves against a single target Vimvocation, do you still get the Vim point? Say... Bane, Will Negates. If they negate it, does that negate the Vim Point? Umm... Hm. I'm not quite sure. I'll say the vim point is dependent on the save, mainly because if you're taking vimvocations to gain vim, there is at least one every tier that wouldn't be negated due to saves. We'll see how it plays out, though.

[Kushōsaku]

Would make sense. If vim equals drained energy, one should only gain points, if there's actually some draining going on. If the save negates the effect, there would be no explanation where the vim comes from, as the target is unharmed.

[Tacitus]

Hmm... so its an unarmed touch attack. Because you are carrying an effect with it does it allow an AoO or not? Being supernatural means that it does not, but the unarmed touch attack may hint otherwise. (This applies to LifeWeave, Far Hand, and Motions) If we look at it like an eldritch blast, it'd provoke, but then again, EB is spell-like and no Su.

Assuming all Vimvocations do provoke as per Invocations.

[Rauthiss]

Hmm... so its an unarmed touch attack. Because you are carrying an effect with it does it allow an AoO or not? Being supernatural means that it does not, but the unarmed touch attack may hint otherwise. (This applies to LifeWeave, Far Hand, and Motions) If we look at it like an eldritch blast, it'd provoke, but then again, EB is spell-like and no Su.

Assuming all Vimvocations do provoke as per Invocations.


Lifeweave and Motions do not. Far hand does. Vimvocations do as well.

[Rauthiss]

Bumping for hopeful comments.

[DracoDei]

Umm... Hm. I'm not quite sure. I'll say the vim point is dependent on the save, mainly because if you're taking vimvocations to gain vim, there is at least one every tier that wouldn't be negated due to saves. We'll see how it plays out, though.

This sounds like the right way to do it to me, and I also can't believe it took this long for that question to be thought of...

Also, creating an example character might help some people (maybe not me), judge the class better, thus making responses more likely.

[Rauthiss]

Sounds good to me - I'll get to work statting up an example.

</bump>

[Rauthiss]

Bumping for spring comments!

[Roc Ness]

Hey Rauthiss? Will you be able to advance Vim abilities using PRCs which advance divine casting? Like with the warlock?

Also, I have to say, this is a really, really cool and original idea. :smallbiggrin:

[Tacitus]

For those of you watching at home, I'm taking part in a playtesting game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148935) using this class, sheet linked below.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=192204

[Rauthiss]

@Roc: Sure, and thanks!
@Tac: Cool!

Any more thoughts, anybody?

[Dencero]

Okay, I REALLY like this base class. I have a few players in mind who might be interested in this base class and I think I see a use for the Lifeweaver for an adventure I've been thinking about for a while now.

Also, I have two questions, is the Lifeweaver limited to touching someone else to get the vim to heal someone, or can they touch and hurt themselves to heal an ally in distress? Could a Lifeweaver damage enemies (Or perhaps allies) to heal themselves?

[Rauthiss]

Okay, I REALLY like this base class. I have a few players in mind who might be interested in this base class and I think I see a use for the Lifeweaver for an adventure I've been thinking about for a while now.

Also, I have two questions, is the Lifeweaver limited to touching someone else to get the vim to heal someone, or can they touch and hurt themselves to heal an ally in distress? Could a Lifeweaver damage enemies (Or perhaps allies) to heal themselves?

Lifeweave can be used to heal/hurt any creature that it can touch, including yourself and allies, RAI. I wasn't sure how best to word it, but if anyone asks, that's the "official" ruling. Enjoy using it, and I'm eager to hear any results of play experience with it!