PDA

View Full Version : Master Sniper (3.5 PrC)



TabletopNuke
2010-01-29, 10:43 PM
I based the master sniper off the cragtop archer class from Races of Stone, placing more emphasis on hiding than climbing, and removing the mountain theme. As far as power goes, I'm aiming for something slightly stronger than the ranger (it is a PrC, after all). Does it look good, or does it need more?

There's not a lot of fluff for this class, because it can fit in pretty much any setting where one can shoot down their enemies while hiding far away. I may make some more fluff later, if the powers that be (GitP) demand it of me, (especially if you guys give me some help).

There are plenty of master snipers in my Breakdown (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7556646&posted=1#post7556646) setting, of course. I plan to make footnotes for every class in Breakdown, detailing the changes made for using them in the setting. But first I need to work out said changes (magic rules, new skills ,ect).

Master Sniper
Anyone who picks off targets from a distance can claim the title of sniper, but only the best can rightfully call themselves a master sniper. These elite marksmen strike from a great distance, leaving so sign of their presence save the lifeless bodies of their foes.
Hit Dice: D8

Requirements:
To qualify to become a master sniper, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Skills: Hide 5 Ranks, Spot 10 Ranks
Feats: Able Sniper (RotW), Far Shot, Precise Shot

Class Skills:
Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str)
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier

A master sniper further hones their already keen vision and accuracy with ranged weaponry.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Master snipers gain no proficiency with any weapons or armor.

Trained Eyes (Ex): Master snipers hone their visual acuity to an uncanny degree of skill. A master sniper suffers only half the normal penalty on his Spot checks because of distance (-1 per 20 feet of distance, rather than -1 per 10 feet). In addition, a master sniper takes only half the normal penalty on ranged attacks per range increment (-1 per range increment, rather than -2).

Vigilant (Ex): Vigilance becomes second nature to master snipers. A master sniper can make a Spot check each round as a free action.

Higher Ground Advantage (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, a master sniper gains a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a ranged attack from higher ground than the target.

Clear Shot (Ex): A master sniper learns how to take advantage of a clear line of sight in order to hit virtually any targets beyond the reach of most snipers. At 3rd level a master sniper can fire a projectile weapon up to fifteen range increments rather than the normal ten range increments, provided he aims at a target to which he has a completely unobstructed view. This means the master sniper must have line of sight to the target, who must not have the benefit of cover or concealment.

Distance Shot (Ex): From 4th level on, a master sniper can seemingly hit any target within sight, no matter how far away. As a full-round action, the master sniper can make a single attack with a projectile weapon. This attack is made with no penalty for range, though it still has the same maximum range as a normal attack by the master sniper. This ability can be used in conjunction with any ability that extends the range of a projectile weapon, such as the Far Shot feat or the Clear Shot ability.

Spot the Gap (Ex): As a standard action, you can attempt to find a weak point in a visible targetís armor. This requires a Spot check against a DC equal to your targetís Armor Class. If you succeed, your next attack ranged against that target (which must be made no later than your next turn) is a touch attack.

Master Sniper
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|
Trained eyes, vigilant

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+1|
Higher ground advantage

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|
Clear shot

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|
Distance shot

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|
Spot the gap[/table]

Temotei
2010-01-30, 12:03 AM
Spot the gap might as well say touch attack.

I don't know...there isn't really a theme of hiding at all. In fact, it discourages hiding with clear shot, unless you have hide in plain sight.

It only has d8 hit dice (-1 hp on average compared to ranger), 4 + Int skills per level (-2 per level versus ranger), and some ranged abilities the ranger doesn't get, but are made up for with spells and animal companion advancement, as well as melee prowess.

The class, as a whole, seems kind of weak, other than the touch attack, and that only applies on one attack, and it takes a standard action, eliminating the possibility of attacking in the same round (unless you're a factotum or something).

EDIT: Higher ground advantage needs to be bold and spaced from the ability above it. Also, +2 damage isn't much. That's Weapon Specialization (ew) when on higher ground (situational). Maybe +2 attack and +2 damage, or +1 attack, +4 damage. That way, at least the archer can get some really tangible difference in being on higher ground (other than having clear shot be more effective because of the possibly heightened sight).

DracoDei
2010-01-30, 12:43 AM
I don't have the energy to read this right now, but I want to point out something I almost mentioned regarding another sniper class a long time in the past... (then I realized the class had UMD, and the range on a key spell is Long).

Military sniping, as it it exists in the real world, would be a JOKE in D&D... Quite simply if you don't have some sort of follow-up magic, the time and effort you put into killing a single individual with a sniper shot is a complete waste of time at higher levels... revivication magic means if you don't at least burn the person's corpse to ash, maybe scatter the ashes, and, in extreme cases, cast Trap the Soul, you have merely cost the opposing force some cash.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-30, 05:11 PM
Spot the gap might as well say touch attack.

Kay. I'll go fix that.


I don't know...there isn't really a theme of hiding at all. In fact, it discourages hiding with clear shot, unless you have hide in plain sight.

Discourages hiding? How so? I guess I could make hide in plain sight a class feature. What level would you recommend, and what should it replace?


It only has d8 hit dice (-1 hp on average compared to ranger), 4 + Int skills per level (-2 per level versus ranger), and some ranged abilities the ranger doesn't get, but are made up for with spells and animal companion advancement, as well as melee prowess.

The class, as a whole, seems kind of weak, other than the touch attack, and that only applies on one attack, and it takes a standard action, eliminating the possibility of attacking in the same round (unless you're a factotum or something).

The ranger has d8 HD. What else would you suggest I do to help beef the class up?


EDIT: Higher ground advantage needs to be bold and spaced from the ability above it. Also, +2 damage isn't much. That's Weapon Specialization (ew) when on higher ground (situational). Maybe +2 attack and +2 damage, or +1 attack, +4 damage. That way, at least the archer can get some really tangible difference in being on higher ground (other than having clear shot be more effective because of the possibly heightened sight).

I'll go fix that. I can change the higher ground feature to +2 attack and +2 damage.


I don't have the energy to read this right now, but I want to point out something I almost mentioned regarding another sniper class a long time in the past... (then I realized the class had UMD, and the range on a key spell is Long).

Military sniping, as it it exists in the real world, would be a JOKE in D&D... Quite simply if you don't have some sort of follow-up magic, the time and effort you put into killing a single individual with a sniper shot is a complete waste of time at higher levels... revivication magic means if you don't at least burn the person's corpse to ash, maybe scatter the ashes, and, in extreme cases, cast Trap the Soul, you have merely cost the opposing force some cash.

I suppose that's where fancy magic weapons and the like come into play. It wouldn't be difficult to come up with magic ammunition that reduces the target to ash if the attack kills the target.

Also, keep in mind that this class can be completed by 11th level, leaving the character to purse another prestige class if they desire. Also, it's still a melee class, at high levels, it's not going to hold it's own against magic.

Glimbur
2010-01-30, 05:24 PM
Your capstone is available as a feat called Deft Strike in Complete Adventurer. It's not that great of a feat due to the action cost.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-30, 05:40 PM
I just made the changes mentioned in the post above (sorry it took so long).

Your capstone is available as a feat called Deft Strike in Complete Adventurer. It's not that great of a feat due to the action cost.
What would you suggest I add to help with the capstone level? Hide in plain sight?

By the way, that avatar is awesome.

Glimbur
2010-01-30, 06:05 PM
Useful things for a sniper include: Hide in Plain Sight, bonus damage, ignoring concealment/miss chance, and a lack of need for sleep. The last is kind of unimpressive as a capstone... perhaps allow a meditation that takes a minute, and as long as you don't leave that spot you don't need to sleep and ignore concealment to your target? Of course, that's also doable with a Seeking bow and is only a little better than a Ring of Sustenance.

The capstone you have, but as a swift action, would be interesting. Consider throwing on some bonus damage (class level * dex mod, which should be between 20 and 50) and making it usable a couple of times per encounter.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-01-30, 06:08 PM
I'm not sure what to do for a capstone, but most of the class abilities remind me of the Cragtop Archer PrC from Races of Stone, which is also five levels long.

EDIT: Bah, I somehow missed how you were drawing inspiration from the Cragtop Archer. My bad.

Mulletmanalive
2010-01-30, 07:17 PM
Well, presently the class lacks kill power. Unless your guns are going to be REALLY deadly off the bat, this has limited itself neatly to being a spellcaster only class, weird as that is...

On the need for body disposal, that's not too hard. Oxyphosphor gel bullets would be basically alchemist's fire and would burn unhindered reducing the body to skeleton and ash without incident. That puts you at Ressurrection territory already

What the class actually needs is some reward for actually using the sniping mechanic in the Hide skill description: bonus damage is a good one or a SoD effect. I went for the former but in normal D&D, there's no good reason for it not to be SoD, basically ranged Death Attack, which, let's face it, is what most people think of when they hear about snipers.

Using Death Attack as a mould, let's see...

11th level character.
Must remain hidden for 4 rounds
Must keep the target in sight for 4 rounds
Must hit the Flatfooted target successfully
Attack must actually deal damage
Target gets a Fortitude save to negate
That's a lot of chances for the effect to be negated, roughly 9 more chances for the target to survive than the Finger of Death spell that is available two levels from then...from my POV, seriously...call that unbalanced! If anything, i'd call it weak for 5 level's work.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-30, 07:29 PM
I'm trying to keep melee classes distinctly non-supernatural. However, this brings up the issue of melee vs magic unbalance at higher levels.

The class does require a feat that is useless for the build (Point Blank Shot, a prerequisite for several necessary feats), so I suppose that would help justify making the class a little more powerful. I could move the class down a level (reduce the BAB requirement to +5, and the Spot requirement to 8 ranks, and add in 8 ranks of Hide), making it top off at level 10. This also allows the character to take full advantage of the standard 10-level PrC afterwords.

Also, I don't want to make the class simply something that people take to get ranger abilities faster (camouflage, [normally 13rd level] hide in plain sight [normally 17th level]) I don't want the class to be overpowered, either, so I'm trying to be very careful with the abilities granted and what level they are available at.

Making spot the gap a swift action would be too powerful, in my opinion. The standard action also fits the flavor well (the sniper needs a moment to aim for a good headshot).

What if I make spot the gap the 2nd-level ability, replace clear shot with a -10 penalty on Hide checks made to snipe (rather than the usual -20) and make the 5th level capstone Improved Precise Shot (normally a 11th level ranger feature), and no Hide penalty to snipe?

I considered a death attack, but the problem is that is that it only works within 30 feet, not what a sniper would want. MulletManAlive, are you suggesting a death attack that have no range limit?

Mulletmanalive
2010-01-30, 07:42 PM
If it applies only the ranged attacks, yes. Probably from a minimum range too.

In practical terms, you don't need hide boosts. Snipers operate at range. Spot checks are batting for zero against them if you're at 200ft [300ft or more, if you use the logical assumption that muzzle flashes make it easier to spot you]. Snipers don't stick in the open and shooting from an uncovered position is basically suicidal when you have a bipod weapon...

You'll bear in mind that i assumed that this was being used in a combat situation. I understand that the class is basically instantly lethal out of combat, but that's what security details are for.

In context, it won't unbalance anything because a Psion can get Disintegrate at the same level [assuming this was a level 11 capstone], which is basically SoD anyway.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-30, 08:04 PM
Good thinking!

I suggested the Hide benefits because there's been complaint that the class doesn't have enough emphasis on it.

I figured the master sniper would be most effective out of combat. I doubt setting up for a lethal headshot is the best idea in the middle of a battle. Sniping is best used on someone who doesn't know you're there.

What do you suggest in terms of specific mechanics?

Mulletmanalive
2010-01-30, 08:24 PM
Well, in MV, a muzzle flash is a -30 penalty on a Hide check, assuming battlefield conditions. Bear in mind that opponents will probably be suffering the -5 distraction penalty too.

From there, it's basically like a death attack.

To make the attack, the sniper must spend 3 rounds observing him. They can do other things in this time but must remain focused on the target and must remain unseen or at least unsuspected by the target. [I'd spend this time adjusting my gun-sights and whatever else you may wish to do]. Then, they must make an attack from Hiding that hits and successfully wounds the target. The target must make a save or die, DC 10 + something [see below]. The Sniper must be at least 30ft from the target to use this attack [including elevation].

Here it gets more of a "to taste" thing because the save is what defines the class. 1/2 Character level gives a standard scaling effect that is only just behind the spells of equal level.
Class level is traditional but comes out rather easy to survive
Damage is a classic, but it could probably be gamed somehow. Assuming that your guns do something like 2d8 or so, it works out at about a 19 DC most of the time, probably about equal to the class level one on average.
For the really Outre, how about Spot or possibly Hide ranks? Or half that...Or, the way i've used these abilities repeatedly, use the character's Spot modifier as the DC itself?
A final, possible option is to remove the minumum study time and make the DC something like 10 + Dex + 2 per round spent studying.
Overall, the choice is yours: Which do you like best?

My call would be 1, 3, or 4. 5 has its merits too and would make the sniper a powerful mook killer and able to deal death to aberrations everywhere with minimal difficulty. Take that space elves!

jvluso
2010-01-30, 11:39 PM
As a capstone, you could allow them to concentrate on someone for three rounds rounds, unobserved or unsuspected, and treat the target as being within thirty feet . This would allow them to use sneak attack or point-blank shot from much farther away.

Temotei
2010-01-31, 12:15 AM
Hide in plain sight would work even at first level. Shadowdancer gets it then. Just think of it in terms of what level you would want the character to have it. Minimum requirements say level seven, so at eighth, you'll have hide in plain sight if you have it at first level. Not a bad time to get it.

My bad on ranger hit dice. House rule. Hit dice of d8 fit because of the archer theme. Being ranged, they shouldn't get hit too often, except by other ranged attackers (fairly uncommon) and spellcasters (but everything gets hit by them...).

The capstone is a lot better now that it's only a free action.

Another idea is to advance sneak attack, or start a new ability sort of like it.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-31, 04:46 PM
How 'bout this? I adjusted the prerequisites (got rid of the non-core feat). The class would first be available at 8th level. It also grants Improved Precise Shot now.

(I'll fix any wording inconsistencies when I make this final)

Requirements:
To qualify to become a master sniper, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Skills: Hide 10 Ranks, Spot 10 Ranks
Feats: Far Shot, Precise Shot

Master Sniper
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|
Spot the gap, trained eyes

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+1|
Clear shot

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|
Improved Precise Shot

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|
Distance shot

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|
Lethal shot[/table]

Spot the Gap (Ex): A master sniper learns to take advantage of minor gaps in a target's defenses. At first level, you can attempt to find a weak point in a visible targetís armor as a standard action. This requires a Spot check against a DC equal to your targetís Armor Class. If you succeed, your next attack ranged against that target (which must be made no later than your next turn) is a touch attack.

Trained Eyes (Ex): Master snipers hone their visual acuity to an uncanny degree of skill. A master sniper suffers only half the normal penalty on his Spot checks because of distance (-1 per 20 feet of distance, rather than -1 per 10 feet). In addition, a master sniper takes only half the normal penalty on ranged attacks per range increment (-1 per range increment, rather than -2).

Clear Shot (Ex): A master sniper learns how to take advantage of a clear line of sight in order to hit virtually any targets beyond the reach of most snipers. At 2nd level a master sniper can fire a projectile weapon up to fifteen range increments rather than the normal ten range increments, provided he aims at a target to which he has a completely unobstructed view. This means the master sniper must have line of sight to the target, who must not have the benefit of cover or concealment.

Improved Precise Shot: At 3rd level, you are treated as if you had Improved Precise Shot, even if you do not meet the prerequisites for that feat.

This benefit only applies while you are wearing light or no armor. You lose the benefit of this ability while wearing medium or heavy armor.

Distance Shot (Ex): From 4th level on, a master sniper can seemingly hit any target within sight, no matter how far away. As a full-round action, the master sniper can make a single attack with a projectile weapon. This attack is made with no penalty for range, though it still has the same maximum range as a normal attack by the master sniper. This ability can be used in conjunction with any ability that extends the range of a projectile weapon, such as the Far Shot feat or the Clear Shot ability.

Lethal Shot (Ex): From 5th level, a master sniper learns how to execute a potentially lethal attack from a great distance. If a master sniper studies his target for 3 rounds and then makes a distance shot that successfully deals damage from at least 30 feet away, the attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (master sniper's choice). While studying the target, the master sniper can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the master sniper or recognize the master sniper as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 1/2 class level + Dex mod) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per 2 character levels of the master sniper. If the victim's saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal distance shot. Once the master sniper has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the lethal within the next 3 rounds.

If a lethal shot is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the master sniper does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another
lethal shot.

Mulletmanalive
2010-01-31, 05:38 PM
That's a non-standard and very weak Save DC. Prestige classes, as standard use their full level, though some folks on this board prefer to use 1/2 character level. As it is, you're selling the class short. 1/2 class level is just not potent enough to make the investment worth while.

Bibliomancer
2010-01-31, 05:56 PM
I suppose that's where fancy magic weapons and the like come into play. It wouldn't be difficult to come up with magic ammunition that reduces the target to ash if the attack kills the target

This already exists in Eberron. There is a melee weapon special property called Keeper's Fang (+4 bonus) which sends the soul of anyone slain by it to the Lair of the Keeper (a perilous cave in a distant location), meaning that resurrection has at least some delay associated with it. If you apply the property to arrows, you upgrade death to a delay of at least a few months.

TabletopNuke
2010-01-31, 05:58 PM
That's a non-standard and very weak Save DC. Prestige classes, as standard use their full level, though some folks on this board prefer to use 1/2 character level. As it is, you're selling the class short. 1/2 class level is just not potent enough to make the investment worth while.

I'm not at all fond of class level for DCs of 5 level classes. It just can't match the 10-level class DC, especially at epic levels.

My concern about using the length of time spent watching the target as the DC was how much variability there is. What about setting a maximum number of rounds the sniper can spend watching? (1/2 class level?).

Spot modifier might be too easy to min-max. Just Spot ranks would be too low, wouldn't it.

Oh! What about 10 + 1/2 character level + Dex mod. That puts it just above spells.

Mulletmanalive
2010-02-27, 08:37 AM
I'm not at all fond of class level for DCs of 5 level classes. It just can't match the 10-level class DC, especially at epic levels.

My concern about using the length of time spent watching the target as the DC was how much variability there is. What about setting a maximum number of rounds the sniper can spend watching? (1/2 class level?).

Spot modifier might be too easy to min-max. Just Spot ranks would be too low, wouldn't it.

Oh! What about 10 + 1/2 character level + Dex mod. That puts it just above spells.

Setting limits based on class level when you're using a feature as a capstone is pointless maths. So the limit is meaningless. A simple limitation would be a maximum bonus gainable equal to their Spot ranks or half Spot ranks to taste. It scales and has the advantage of meaning that dedication is rewarded.

Spot modifier is easily broken if you allow people to buy magic items, always have the spells they want and allow Nth party books but considering what you've told me about the setting [minimal magic items, powers limited to given races etc] i wouldn't assume that it would go much higher than maybe 14 + level at most, and that's with about 4-5 feats used on it. As is, a conservative estimate would be about 9 + level.

From actual experience with guns, it would be Strength that sets DC on effects based on long-shots, not Dexterity because it's the ability to stop minor changes occurring much more than actually pointing it in the righ direction.

Your last suggestion is board standard: a resounding [shrug] from me, but it works fine. I've always prefered working for my advantages and the above method actually technically allows it to be used as a snap-shot effect, albeit one with a really low save DC [i'd suggest noting that a '1' is not a failure on the save in that case. Spamming is bad...]

As an aside, the class could do with a little extra charcoal in conventional ranged combat, just to make it feel worthwhile until you get the capstone. I'd suggest a level one ability that adds +1 or +2 damage per level with ranged attacks. Maybe a swift action to "bring it up to the shoulder" if you'd prefer.

TabletopNuke
2010-02-28, 09:56 PM
Setting limits based on class level when you're using a feature as a capstone is pointless maths. So the limit is meaningless. A simple limitation would be a maximum bonus gainable equal to their Spot ranks or half Spot ranks to taste. It scales and has the advantage of meaning that dedication is rewarded.

Spot modifier is easily broken if you allow people to buy magic items, always have the spells they want and allow Nth party books but considering what you've told me about the setting [minimal magic items, powers limited to given races etc] i wouldn't assume that it would go much higher than maybe 14 + level at most, and that's with about 4-5 feats used on it. As is, a conservative estimate would be about 9 + level.

From actual experience with guns, it would be Strength that sets DC on effects based on long-shots, not Dexterity because it's the ability to stop minor changes occurring much more than actually pointing it in the righ direction.

Your last suggestion is board standard: a resounding [shrug] from me, but it works fine. I've always prefered working for my advantages and the above method actually technically allows it to be used as a snap-shot effect, albeit one with a really low save DC [i'd suggest noting that a '1' is not a failure on the save in that case. Spamming is bad...]

As an aside, the class could do with a little extra charcoal in conventional ranged combat, just to make it feel worthwhile until you get the capstone. I'd suggest a level one ability that adds +1 or +2 damage per level with ranged attacks. Maybe a swift action to "bring it up to the shoulder" if you'd prefer.

I just realized that there's a typo in the lethal shot DC. *Shrugs* It's getting changed anyway.

I have zero gun experience, so I have no idea if there are any inaccuracies.

Spot modifier is too easy to min-max, but Spot ranks might work. As for Dex vs Str, don't snipers usually have something to steady the gun for long-range shots?

11th level is the earliest the class can be completed, so let's compare the Lethal Shot DC to an 11th level assassin's Death Attack DC (16+Int Mod). Let's see, using Spot ranks as the DC would result in a DC of Level+3 (assuming Spot is maxed out), 14 at level 11, too low. 10+1/2 Spot ranks is 17, still not quite as good as the assassin. What about 10+1/2 Spot ranks (rounded up)+Dex mod?

But on the other hand, Death Attack has a 30ft maximum range, but Lethal Shot has no limit on range. Should the DC be slightly lower to compensate for that?

How's this look for an additional 1st level ability?
Deadly Accuracy (Ex): You add your class level to damage rolls for ranged attacks.

If that seems too powerful, I can say that the character must take a standard action to take advantage of that bonus in the following round, or something.

As far as spamming goes, I don't like the rule that 1 is an automatic fail and 20 is an automatic success. I play with the variant rule that 1 counts as a roll of -10, and 20 counts as a roll of 30.

Mulletmanalive
2010-03-01, 08:29 AM
I was actually suggesting a DC of 10 + stat +2 per round spent observing.

Cap that however you want: your choice of Spot ranks or Half Spot ranks, whatever you like.

I favoured this because it allowed a limited effect "boom headshot" option for snipers caught up close [i.e. no rounds of observation, flat 10 + stat save] for minion takeouts. Balanced some of the long ranged aspects.

If you want a static DC, either of your previous suggestions work find.

I'll point out once more that despite Skip Williams saying otherwise, "breaking" anything isn't possible to my mind because it's the GM who makes the rules. Thus, while your point that the save DC would be high with Spot modifier is correct, the idea that you could break it, is essentially false to me.

If you want to use Dex, use Dex. I'm just saying from experience and no, a Bipod doesn't remove the need for strength. You still have to avoid trembling, hold the thing steady and mitigate the recoil.

A moderately neutral stat would be Int, Wis or Con. All of which make a certain amount of sense [about as much as Dex if you can't snap-shot with this ability]. Only thing that couldn't be argued is Cha, simply because your force of presonality isn't likely to stop the gun jerking.

TabletopNuke
2010-03-01, 06:18 PM
I'm in the process of making modern weapons and armor for Breakdown. I do actually intend to rule that when using large firearms such as rifles, you apply your Strength penalty (if any) to attack rolls due to recoil. Does that sound satisfactory?

As far as Lethal Shot goes, you'd still have to make the attack roll (which would be affected by Strength). That's why I didn't think it was that important to use Strength for the DC.

Using 10 + stat +2 per round spent observing for the DC poses a problem at higher (especially epic) levels. What about Spot ranks +1 per round spent observing? The result would by just a bit below Death Attack's DC, but with no range limit. Or is that too low to be practical?

imp_fireball
2010-03-02, 02:08 PM
A moderately neutral stat would be Int, Wis or Con. All of which make a certain amount of sense [about as much as Dex if you can't snap-shot with this ability]. Only thing that couldn't be argued is Cha, simply because your force of presonality isn't likely to stop the gun jerking.

If you wanna take the mental direction, I'd say it should be Wis. Wis allows you to screw your mind into a state of really wanting to get the job done. Or imagining the target dead and then making it happen. :smallamused:

Intelligence would be a case of reciting the process of doing it in your head and then having it play out, hoping it goes right. Which I don't think is as guaranteed as having the uncanny ability to will yourself to aim correctly - steady aim depends more on perception than technique. Hence, Wis.

Dex of course applies to 'snap shots', like you said - which still involve aiming; I guess maybe holding the gun right and moving correctly.

Cha is of course a no no.


I'm in the process of making modern weapons and armor for Breakdown. I do actually intend to rule that when using large firearms such as rifles, you apply your Strength penalty (if any) to attack rolls due to recoil. Does that sound satisfactory?

Darn, that's an excellent idea! I was confuddled about recoil issues - now I think all I need to do for recoil is give a Strength score to the weapon and then for every modifier below that score, apply a penalty to attack. And then there's the other effects which are a little unorganized right now (gun flies in random direction, overheats, knocks you prone, etc.).

Granted, recoil applies to all guns but some don't interpose an attack penalty (like shot guns and pistols).

Mulletmanalive
2010-03-02, 02:28 PM
i have no idea why the rounds thing would be an issue, but go with whatever you think works.

imp_fireball
2010-03-02, 04:14 PM
Using 10 + stat +2 per round spent observing for the DC poses a problem at higher (especially epic) levels. What about Spot ranks +1 per round spent observing? The result would by just a bit below Death Attack's DC, but with no range limit. Or is that too low to be practical?


This should probably max out at some point, otherwise it'd be crazy high.

Just apply the spot ranks +1 + stat + 10 after 3 rounds spent observing. Seems fine to me, and you'd be a fool not to optimize (so hardly a draw back for requiring a skill).

Also, add in the 'meditate to avoid the need for sleep' ability. It's a very minor addition and it requires you to stand still. Granted, it makes them the perfect sentry for a sleeping party, but that's the point right?

Also, if they have some means of peering hundreds up feet into darkness (or certain points of darkness), that would further accent the sentry role.

Maybe even make them as useful as a wizard that can't scry in that sense.

TabletopNuke
2010-03-04, 12:32 AM
This should probably max out at some point, otherwise it'd be crazy high.

Just apply the spot ranks +1 + stat + 10 after 3 rounds spent observing. Seems fine to me, and you'd be a fool not to optimize (so hardly a draw back for requiring a skill).

Your method results in a DC of 25+ Stat at 11th level (assuming Spot is maxed out). That's hardly fair to CR 11 enemies.


What about saying the maximum bonus you can get from observing is equal to 1/2 your ranks in Spot (rounded down)? This means the maximum DC at 11th level is 21 (marginally higher than the Death Attack, but only after waiting 4 more rounds)/


Also, add in the 'meditate to avoid the need for sleep' ability. It's a very minor addition and it requires you to stand still. Granted, it makes them the perfect sentry for a sleeping party, but that's the point right?

Also, if they have some means of peering hundreds up feet into darkness (or certain points of darkness), that would further accent the sentry role.

Maybe even make them as useful as a wizard that can't scry in that sense.

I'm trying to keep Breakdown's non-supernatural classes as realistic as possible. One of the major themes (in the human world anyway) is the spread of supernatural energy and the effects it has on the world. To underline this, I want to keep the "normal human" classes within normal human limit (disregarding epic levels).

I've heard of people "resetting" their internal clocks to run on about a hour of sleep a night (by making it so you instantly go into REM as soon as you sleep). I've been thinking about making a feat like that, which could be a bonus feat for snipers. Any thoughts?

On replacing scrying: for the most part, there is no scrying. Most humans don't know about the supernatural, and the government doesn't have a huge number of seers. A keen eye and a good set of nightvision goggles are important for security.

Mulletmanalive
2010-03-04, 10:08 AM
What about saying the maximum bonus you can get from observing is equal to 1/2 your ranks in Spot (rounded down)? This means the maximum DC at 11th level is 21 (marginally higher than the Death Attack, but only after waiting 4 more rounds)/


I did say this. About 4 posts ago...

It makes it highly dangerous if you have time on your hands but just dangerous and a nifty benefit when you're actually fighting in combat.

TabletopNuke
2010-03-04, 10:36 PM
I did say this. About 4 posts ago...
Sorry! I misread posts sometimes (computer screen hurts my eyes, we have a love/hate relationship.

It makes it highly dangerous if you have time on your hands but just dangerous and a nifty benefit when you're actually fighting in combat.
So that DC sound good?

How does this look for a Master Sniper bonus feat?

Intermittent Sleep
You have trained yourself to slip immediately into REM sleep, enabling you to function optimally on only two hours of sleep a day.
Prerequisites: Concentration: 6 ranks
You only require 2 hours of sleep a day, broken up into 30 minute segments. However, you also require 1 1/2 times as much food as normal. You must still wait 8 hours to recover spells.

Temotei
2010-03-04, 10:54 PM
Sorry! I misread posts sometimes (computer screen hurts my eyes, we have a love/hate relationship.

So that DC sound good?

How does this look for a Master Sniper bonus feat?

Intermittent Sleep
You have trained yourself to slip immediately into REM sleep, enabling you to function optimally on only two hours of sleep a day.
Prerequisites: Concentration: 6 ranks
You only require 2 hours of sleep a day, broken up into 30 minute segments. However, you also require 1 1/2 times as much food as normal. You must still wait 8 hours to recover spells.

I would never spend a feat slot on this. I'd say get rid of the penalty, get rid of the "broken up into 30-minute segments" part (corrected with a hyphen :smalltongue:), drop the Concentration requirement to 5 ranks, and then give some other benefit. A ring of sustenance overshadows the feat easily.

Perhaps giving it as a class feature wouldn't be a bad idea, but the whole extra food thing is unnecessary.

Zexion
2010-03-04, 11:42 PM
Don't make it a feat, make it something anyone can do if they are willing to sacrifice two points of Constitution. Easy.

Mulletmanalive
2010-03-05, 09:33 AM
A ring of sustenance overshadows the feat easily.

Invalid point: a) Magic items are not freely manufactured and sold. DMG says so, so this has choice, the ring is a vague chance, if the GM is feeling generous. b) Humans don't have access to much by the way of supernatural stuff in Breakdown anyway.

From the experience of an insomniac, once you're used to it, you stop eating and enter a semi-permanent state of fatigue.

A better way of doing this would probably be a Concentration Skill Trick [from Complete Scoundrel]. 2 skill points buys the ability to meditate in a semi-conscious level, with your eyes open for half the time that your race normally needs. You can do it in bursts of 30 minutes and can make a DC 20 Concentration check to respond to movement.

In all honesty, I played a game once where taking the Swashbuckling Adventures feat Odd Sleeping Habits was totally worthwhile and saved the party's life several times because i was able to respond to stealthy midnight attacks and such.

TabletopNuke
2010-03-05, 11:03 PM
I would never spend a feat slot on this. I'd say get rid of the penalty, get rid of the "broken up into 30-minute segments" part (corrected with a hyphen :smalltongue:), drop the Concentration requirement to 5 ranks, and then give some other benefit. A ring of sustenance overshadows the feat easily.

Perhaps giving it as a class feature wouldn't be a bad idea, but the whole extra food thing is unnecessary.

Yeah, I wasn't sure of the power, which is why I asked for help. As for the increase in food, I did a little research on intermittent sleep patterns that enable you to run on 2 hours of sleep. Apparently you have to eat more on such a schedule (which makes perfect sense). From my personal experience as a chronic insomniac, I've found that I'm ravenous on the day following a sleepless night.
Thanks for the hyphen correction.

From the experience of an insomniac, once you're used to it, you stop eating and enter a semi-permanent state of fatigue.

A better way of doing this would probably be a Concentration Skill Trick [from Complete Scoundrel]. 2 skill points buys the ability to meditate in a semi-conscious level, with your eyes open for half the time that your race normally needs. You can do it in bursts of 30 minutes and can make a DC 20 Concentration check to respond to movement.

In all honesty, I played a game once where taking the Swashbuckling Adventures feat Odd Sleeping Habits was totally worthwhile and saved the party's life several times because i was able to respond to stealthy midnight attacks and such.

That sounds good. I'd considered going with a skill trick, but I've never played with them. How's this?

Intermittent Sleeper[Mental]
Prerequisite: Concentration 5 ranks
Benefit: Rather than sleeping as a typical member of your species does, you are able to rest through periods of semi-conscious meditation. You only require half as much sleep as normal, which can be broken up into 30-minute rest periods. While in this meditative state, you are partially aware of your surroundings, and can make a DC 20 Concentration check to respond to sound or movement. You must still wait 8 hours to recover spells or power points.

Odd Sleeping Habits? What's that feat like?

Mulletmanalive
2010-03-06, 05:23 AM
Kinda the same thing but you need 5 hours of sleep and can break it up anyway you like. It also kind of insinuates you can choose whether to sleep light or the sleep of the dead, which we used [hence ignoring the rattling of carriages you're in etc].

Feats are slightly less of a premium in Swashbuckling Adventures because when you enter a swordsmanship school class [5 level prestige class] you'll be getting a fistful anyway...

That said, it was supremely worth it because we were playing a game that didn't involve just killing people and taking their stuff...

Your trick looks fine.

TabletopNuke
2010-03-07, 09:17 PM
Good. Now the question remains of how to fit it into the class. Should I make it a prerequisite or a class feature? And if I do make it a class feature, what level should it be at?

ArcanistSupreme
2010-03-08, 02:38 PM
My vote is to make it a prerequisite. Think of it as sniper training.

Mulletmanalive
2010-03-08, 06:23 PM
I concur. I suggest reducing the skill prerequisites to 9: same cost in skill points, accessible one level earlier.

I miss read this originally, making the class as written one level less favourable than all the math we were working on. I think level 11 would be as good a place as any for the capstone.

TabletopNuke
2010-03-09, 03:37 PM
Alright, I think I got everything. How does all this look?

Requirements:
To qualify to become a master sniper, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Skills: Hide 9 Ranks, Spot 9 Ranks
Skill Trick: Intermittent Sleeper
Feats: Far Shot, Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (any ranged projectiweapon), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot

Master Sniper
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|
Deadshot, longsight

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|
Longshot, spot the gap

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|
Improved Precise Shot

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|
Distance shot

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|
Lethal shot[/table]

Deadshot (Ex): You add your class level to damage rolls on ranged attacks with a projectile weapon using proper ammuntion.

Longsight (Ex): Master snipers hone their visual acuity to an uncanny degree of skill. A master sniper suffers only half the normal penalty on his Spot checks because of distance (-1 per 20 feet of distance, rather than -1 per 10 feet). In addition, a master sniper takes only half the normal penalty on ranged attacks per range increment (-1 per range increment, rather than -2).

Longshot (Ex): A master sniper learns how to take advantage of a clear line of sight in order to hit virtually any targets beyond the reach of most snipers. At 2nd level a master sniper can use a ranged weapon to propel ammunition up to fifteen range increments rather than the normal ten range increments, provided he aims at a target to which he has a completely unobstructed view. This means the master sniper must have line of sight to the target, who must not have the benefit of cover or concealment.

Spot the Gap (Ex): A master sniper learns to take advantage of minor gaps in a target's defenses. At second level, you can attempt to find a weak point in a visible targetís armor as a standard action. This requires a Spot check against a DC equal to your targetís Armor Class. If you succeed, your next attack ranged against that target (which must be made no later than your next turn) is a touch attack.

Improved Precise Shot: At 3rd level, you are treated as if you had Improved Precise Shot, even if you do not meet the prerequisites for that feat.

This benefit only applies while you are wearing light or no armor. You lose the benefit of this ability while wearing medium or heavy armor.

Distance Shot (Ex): From 4th level on, a master sniper can seemingly hit any target within sight, no matter how far away. As a full-round action, the master sniper can make a single ranged attack with a projectile weapon using proper ammunition. This attack is made with no penalty for range, though it still has the same maximum range as a normal attack by the master sniper. This ability can be used in conjunction with any ability that extends the range of a projectile weapon, such as the Far Shot feat or the Clear Shot ability.

Lethal Shot (Ex): From 5th level, a master sniper learns how to execute a potentially lethal attack from a great distance. When a master sniper successfully deals damage with a distance shot, the attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (master sniper's choice). If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC equal to the master sniper's Spot ranks) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per class level. If the victim's saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal distance shot.

A master sniper can choose to increase the DC of the lethal shot by observing the target prior to the attack. Each additional round the master sniper spends studying the target adds 1 to the Lethal Shot DC, to a maximum bonus equal to 1/2 the master sniper's ranks in Spot (rounded down). While studying the target, the master sniper can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the master sniper or recognize the master sniper as an enemy. If a lethal shot is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the master sniper does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, the sniper must study the target once more to raise the DC again.

New Skill Trick

Intermittent Sleeper [Mental]
You have trained yourself to enter brief periods of restful meditative state as opposed to long periods of unconsciousness.
Prerequisite: Autohypnosis 5 ranks
Benefit: Rather than sleeping as a typical member of your species does, you are able to rest through periods of semi-conscious meditation. You only require half as much sleep as normal, which can be broken up into 30-minute rest periods. While in this meditative state, you are partially aware of your surroundings, and can make a DC 20 Autohypnosis check to respond to sound or movement. You must still wait 8 hours to recover spells or power points.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-05, 10:12 PM
Funny enough I was just asking in the other forums if anyone had done any remakes of the cragtop archer PrC since I was trying to make a ranged character. I have read over all of this stuff and think it has come together quite nicely. I do see one mess up in your saves block. Will gets its +1 before Reflex does. But other than that I dig it, good work.

Edit: I didn't really read it right the first time either. The final ability being able to be potentially used every round is a bit on the overpowered side. Esp in certain situations, say for instance the big bad guy for your entire campaign is met on an open battlefield commanding his hoard of whatever it is he commands. Giving him a DC whatever Fort save every round or die is pretty tough on him. Esp if that him is a caster or something of that sort. Maybe go for a middle ground of minimum one round of observation. Or say they must be unaware of the attack for it to count but you can use it as often as you like. Also your first level ability allowing you to take a standard action to treat your next attack as a touch attack is already a skill trick. Such an easy thing to grab from another source seems a bit underpowered. Maybe do something that instead would catch your opponent flatfooted. That would also work well if you went with the option of having the lethal strike haev a flat footed prereq as an additional option in case you are seen hiding and still wanna put an arrow through someones eye. Just my two cents, for what it's worth.

imp_fireball
2010-08-05, 10:28 PM
Make will the good save for the MS, not Fort.

Just suits flavor a bit better. Also I imagine casters being the sniper's nemesis.

TabletopNuke
2010-08-06, 04:27 PM
Funny enough I was just asking in the other forums if anyone had done any remakes of the cragtop archer PrC since I was trying to make a ranged character. I have read over all of this stuff and think it has come together quite nicely. I do see one mess up in your saves block. Will gets its +1 before Reflex does. But other than that I dig it, good work.
Glad to be of help. Thanks for spotting that! I fixed it.

The final ability being able to be potentially used every round is a bit on the overpowered side. Esp in certain situations, say for instance the big bad guy for your entire campaign is met on an open battlefield commanding his hoard of whatever it is he commands. Giving him a DC whatever Fort save every round or die is pretty tough on him. Esp if that him is a caster or something of that sort. Maybe go for a middle ground of minimum one round of observation. Or say they must be unaware of the attack for it to count but you can use it as often as you like.
The difficulty of the Fort save is an important factor. We actually spent quite a while debating the best way to determine DC. If you don't spend any time observing, the DC is probably Level+3 (14 at level 11), compared to a 11th level-wizard's 6th-level spell DC of 19, minimum. Additionally, when the sniper makes a lethal shot, that's all they can do that round.

The save or die thing is a good point though. Which do you guys think is better? 1 round observation or the target must be flat-footed?


Also your first level ability allowing you to take a standard action to treat your next attack as a touch attack is already a skill trick. Such an easy thing to grab from another source seems a bit underpowered. Maybe do something that instead would catch your opponent flatfooted. That would also work well if you went with the option of having the lethal strike haev a flat footed prereq as an additional option in case you are seen hiding and still wanna put an arrow through someones eye. Just my two cents, for what it's worth.
Actually, Spot the Gap is a bit more powerful than the skill trick. Firstly, the ability is available 2 levels earlier than the skill trick does (7 vs 9). In addition, the skill trick is limited to 30 foot range and can be sued once per encounter. The class ability has no range limit.

Make will the good save for the MS, not Fort.

Just suits flavor a bit better. Also I imagine casters being the sniper's nemesis.
Alright, I changed it to Will.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-06, 07:05 PM
Hm...I suppose that is true about the skill trick thing. Even if it is a smidge better as your class ability if you do decide to go with flatfooted as a prereq to getting the lethal shot you might still consider something to catch them flatfooted as to synergize well. Agreed the DC isn't absurdly high for the lethal shot. The difference between a caster's DC and that is a caster only has so many spells to pop off. An archer with the quiver of ehlonna is popping off a save or die every round for as long as they have arrows. I'm not saying your ability is like HOLY CRAP SO AMAZING. buts its definitely a bit overpowered just because of that.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-06, 07:35 PM
You could......

Deadshot (Ex): Starting at 1st level, add your your class level to ranged damage rolls when using a ranged weapon that uses ammunition.

Longshot (Ex): Starting at 1st level, you can use a ranged weapon to propel ammunition a number of additional range increments equal to your class level.

Longsight (Ex): At 2nd level, You suffer only half the penalty to ranged attack rolls and Spot checks due to distance (rounded down).

Spot the Gap @ 2nd level

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

For the requirements, I would require proficency with a ranged martial weapon that uses ammunition.

TabletopNuke
2010-08-07, 07:07 PM
Hm...I suppose that is true about the skill trick thing. Even if it is a smidge better as your class ability if you do decide to go with flatfooted as a prereq to getting the lethal shot you might still consider something to catch them flatfooted as to synergize well. Agreed the DC isn't absurdly high for the lethal shot. The difference between a caster's DC and that is a caster only has so many spells to pop off. An archer with the quiver of ehlonna is popping off a save or die every round for as long as they have arrows. I'm not saying your ability is like HOLY CRAP SO AMAZING. buts its definitely a bit overpowered just because of that.
Alright, I might add flatfooted as a requirement to use that ability. So what would be some good class features to synergize with that?

Deadshot (Ex): Starting at 1st level, add your your class level to ranged damage rolls when using a ranged weapon that can fire ammunition.

Longshot (Ex): Starting at 1st level, you can use a ranged weapon to fire ammunition a number of additional range increments equal to your class level.

Longsight (Ex): At 2nd level, You suffer only half the penalty to ranged attack rolls and Spot checks due to distance (rounded down).

Spot the Gap @ 2nd level
Are you suggesting these as replacements for the current class features or in addition to them?

By "fires ammunition", do mean things like guns, as opposed to bows? Because I'd like to allow this class to be used for both. I guess it is important to specify ammunition, though. Throwing knives or something this way wouldn't really fit the flavor.

For the requirements, I would require proficency with a ranged martial weapon that fires ammunition.
Oh yeah, good point! Forgot about that, but again there's the issue of ammunition. Perhaps the prerequisite "Proficiency with a ranged martial weapon that uses ammunition"?

Kiren
2010-08-07, 07:18 PM
I really should look through this more, i just skimmed, what about using the skill trick to meditate while looking through the scope for long periods of time till the target shows?

Andion Isurand
2010-08-07, 08:24 PM
yeah, I mean you should change the order of the features...
and perhaps give them the names listed, Longshot instead of clear shot
and deadshot isntead of deadly shot

feels more concise

also, I fixed the wording

TabletopNuke
2010-08-08, 08:33 PM
I really should look through this more, i just skimmed, what about using the skill trick to meditate while looking through the scope for long periods of time till the target shows?
I guess if you did that you'd have to make the DC 20 Concentration check to react to movement. Not a terrible DC, and you'd only need 4 hours of that a day (assuming you're human).

yeah, I mean you should change the order of the features...
and perhaps give them the names listed, Longshot instead of clear shot
and deadshot isntead of deadly shot.
Alright, I'll change those names and the progression order. Thanks for the suggestions!

Why are you suggesting I change Longshot to 1 range increment/class level, as opposed to the set number of 5?

So I still need to figure out if the target needs to be flatfooted for Lethal Shot, and possibly an earlier class feature to synergize with that.

Edit: Oh, I also added the proficiency requirements (Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency [any ranged weapon that uses ammunition]) Also is there a reason you proposed the Longsight at 2nd level and Longshot at first, or was that a typo?

DEMON
2010-08-08, 08:38 PM
Why are you suggesting I change Longshot to 1 range increment/class level, as opposed to the set number of 5?

To make leveling up a bit more rewarding, I guess, as this way you donīt get all the bonus straight from the start, but have to "earn it" trough XP.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-08, 09:14 PM
No mistake about the Longshot progressing by class level starting at level 1.

Then, if you put longsight at level 2... then the benefits gained at level 1 are tecnically less than other levels.... and another minor bonus.... like Poison Use or the Able Sniper feat... can be gained at level 1.

////////////////////////////////////////

Able Sniper

You are accomplished at remaining unseen when you're sniping with a ranged weapon.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Hide 5 ranks.

Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on ranged attack rolls with a weapon made against flat-footed targets that are at least 30 feet away. In addition, you gain a +4 bonus on Hide checks made to hide again after you have made an attack roll while hiding (see page 76 of the Player's Handbook).

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050204a&page=3

///////////////////////////////////////

And isn't Point Blank Shot a prerequite of Precise Shot... might want to list it.

And I think that Fortitude should be the good save, given that many real snipers have to endure harsh environmental conditions for extended periods of time, waiting to take a single shot.

TheVileVillain
2010-08-09, 12:16 AM
Some Ideas [I would suggest taking a leaf or two out of Dread Commando and making this a 10 level Prestige Class]:


Two is a Team [Ex]:
Tactical Requirements: Before combat starts you may declare an ally your tactical partner. The Ally must have 3 or more ranks in spot, and you must anticipate combat specifically in order to gain this benefit for an encounter. This ability works as long as the ally has an unobstructed line of sight to the target and you can see your partner's hand signals.
Benefit: The enemy only gains half the normal cover bonus to AC and you may roll the miss chance from cover twice, taking the better result. This works even if the enemy has full cover or is not at all visible to you (In which case it is treated as having full cover).

Focused Shot [Ex]:
Tactical Requirements: You must study your enemy at a distance for 3 rounds prior to a ranged attack as per the rules of death attack. You must fulfill the normal rules for making Death Attack except that there is no range limit and you can't be seen even if you are not recognized as an enemy.
Benefit: You may make a special ranged attack roll as a full round action. For this attack roll the critical threat range of your weapon is doubled and you gain a +4 competence bonus to the attack and damage rolls.

TabletopNuke
2010-08-14, 12:16 AM
Some Ideas [I would suggest taking a leaf or two out of Dread Commando and making this a 10 level Prestige Class]:
What aspects of the dread commando are you suggesting? (I actually thing that's a pretty cool class, though I've never tried it myself). Also I feel that the occasional 5 level PrC is good for adding a bit more without too much commitment. What reason were you suggesting 10 level?

Two is a Team [Ex]:
Tactical Requirements: Before combat starts you may declare an ally your tactical partner. The Ally must have 3 or more ranks in spot, and you must anticipate combat specifically in order to gain this benefit for an encounter. This ability works as long as the ally has an unobstructed line of sight to the target and you can see your partner's hand signals.
Benefit: The enemy only gains half the normal cover bonus to AC and you may roll the miss chance from cover twice, taking the better result. This works even if the enemy has full cover or is not at all visible to you (In which case it is treated as having full cover).

Focused Shot [Ex]:
Tactical Requirements: You must study your enemy at a distance for 3 rounds prior to a ranged attack as per the rules of death attack. You must fulfill the normal rules for making Death Attack except that there is no range limit and you can't be seen even if you are not recognized as an enemy.
Benefit: You may make a special ranged attack roll as a full round action. For this attack roll the critical threat range of your weapon is doubled and you gain a +4 competence bonus to the attack and damage rolls.
Those are some pretty cool ideas. I especially like the teamwork aspect of the first one, since snipers generally have spotters. Where in the progression did you think they should go and what would they replace?

imp_fireball
2010-08-14, 08:05 AM
I guess if you did that you'd have to make the DC 20 Concentration check to react to movement. Not a terrible DC, and you'd only need 4 hours of that a day (assuming you're human).

Mention what happens if you're not human. If you're an elf that can trance, ie.



By "fires ammunition", do mean things like guns, as opposed to bows? Because I'd like to allow this class to be used for both. I guess it is important to specify ammunition, though. Throwing knives or something this way wouldn't really fit the flavor.


Anything that fires something that is manufactured or a part of the creature or something that the creature can create (ie. through supernatural ability, power, spell, etc.). So basically anything that isn't 'improvised' for the weapon or naturally occuring*.

*Except if the weapon can fire a specific thing that is naturally occuring (or all things that are naturally occuring).

Also include that as an asterix footnote to the word 'ammunition' (it's what the SRD does, though I have often resorted to 'NOTE: blah blah blah' myself. I'm slowly adapting to the proper way). You can use double asterixes for extra footnotes or for asterixes within asterixes.


Two is a Team [Ex]:
Tactical Requirements: Before combat starts you may declare an ally your tactical partner. The Ally must have 3 or more ranks in spot, and you must anticipate combat specifically in order to gain this benefit for an encounter. This ability works as long as the ally has an unobstructed line of sight to the target and you can see your partner's hand signals.


Include that an ally and host (the character with this feat) must know enough of each other's capabilities depending on their wisdom and int scores. This requires spending time training together at least 4d6 hours per day - double the halved sum* of each character's Int modifier** of each member hours every day and for a number of days equal to one week - halved sum* Wis modifier** of each member days.

*Round down.

**Note that because two positives equals a negative, Int penalties mean '+ hours' rather than '- hours'.

***If your Int modifier would take you below 1 hour of training per day, it converts to 1 hour times 1/Sum Double Halved Int Modifier** Remainder****. Wis modifier cannot take a pair of characters training together below 1 day's duration (1 effective lesson).

****Any Int bonus left over from a total Int modifier, or constituent Int modifier of the same total Int modifier, that would effectively reduce training from 1 hour to less than 1 hour or 15 minutes to less than 15 minutes.


and you may roll the miss chance from cover twice, taking the better result. This works even if the enemy has full cover or is not at all visible to you (In which case it is treated as having full cover).


This should state that it also stacks with other 'roll again' miss chances. Why? Because it'd make sense. That's why.


given that many real snipers have to endure harsh environmental conditions for extended periods of time, waiting to take a single shot.

Nah, that just means they take levels of warrior. Or take a level of fighter and 'great fortitude' (or great fortitude without a level of fighter).

But in all honesty, every soldier would need good fortitude progression by that logic.

If it's absolutely necessary, make fortitude a 'medium progression' save - meaning it caps out at +9 rather than +6 or +12 (there's some math involved for a ten level progression; it'd help if anyone created a table).

And the ability to stay on task is a characteristic of wisdom and will power I'd say. That and the 'concentrate' skill for what I call 'precision will power' or intensely willing something very specific that involves mind/body or just mind.


what about using the skill trick to meditate while looking through the scope for long periods of time till the target shows?

That requires a hell of a lot of zen in real life - imagine having no red bull and starnig at a computer screen for 90 hours without any sleep whatsoever - assuming you can even make it that long, imagine only then being able to spot and click on something that appears for a spontaneous 1.567 seconds once after the 90 hours of waiting (assume that your sources told you it could appear at any time within 120 hours). If you fail to do this, you have information sources that say it could appear once more in 5 - 500 hours. You must wait. If you don't, you will be fired immediately from your 200,000 dollar commissioned paycheque since you failed your mission. It was the terms of the contract.

I'd make it a perk (costs maybe 10 - 70 perk points? Hefty prerequisites, one of them being that skill trick).

Although I don't really know what skill tricks are. If a skill trick is like a feat, then I'd go for a perk. If it requires XP, like a perk and an unlimited number can be taken and is somewhat independent from your ECL (like a perk), then go for the trick option.

TabletopNuke
2010-08-15, 09:40 PM
Mention what happens if you're not human. If you're an elf that can trance, ie.
You'd only need half the usual amount of trance time, broken up into 30 minute amounts.

Anything that fires something that is manufactured or a part of the creature or something that the creature can create (ie. through supernatural ability, power, spell, etc.). So basically anything that isn't 'improvised' for the weapon or naturally occuring*.

*Except if the weapon can fire a specific thing that is naturally occuring (or all things that are naturally occuring).

Also include that as an asterix footnote to the word 'ammunition' (it's what the SRD does, though I have often resorted to 'NOTE: blah blah blah' myself. I'm slowly adapting to the proper way). You can use double asterixes for extra footnotes or for asterixes within asterixes.
Isn't there a definition in the PHB or something for weapons that fire ammunition?


Include that an ally and host (the character with this feat) must know enough of each other's capabilities depending on their wisdom and int scores. This requires spending time training together at least 4d6 hours per day - double the halved sum* of each character's Int modifier** of each member hours every day and for a number of days equal to one week - halved sum* Wis modifier** of each member days.

*Round down.

**Note that because two positives equals a negative, Int penalties mean '+ hours' rather than '- hours'.

***If your Int modifier would take you below 1 hour of training per day, it converts to 1 hour times 1/Sum Double Halved Int Modifier** Remainder****. Wis modifier cannot take a pair of characters training together below 1 day's duration (1 effective lesson).

****Any Int bonus left over from a total Int modifier, or constituent Int modifier of the same total Int modifier, that would effectively reduce training from 1 hour to less than 1 hour or 15 minutes to less than 15 minutes.
That seems far more complicated than players will want. I favor simple mechanics when possible. (or maybe my old group was just made up of idiots)

If it's absolutely necessary, make fortitude a 'medium progression' save - meaning it caps out at +9 rather than +6 or +12 (there's some math involved for a ten level progression; it'd help if anyone created a table).

And the ability to stay on task is a characteristic of wisdom and will power I'd say. That and the 'concentrate' skill for what I call 'precision will power' or intensely willing something very specific that involves mind/body or just mind.
I'm not a fan of medium progression. We can think about whether to go with Will or Fort a bit longer. Worst comes to worst there's always a coin toss.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-15, 09:56 PM
You'd only need half the usual amount of trance time, broken up into 30 minute amounts.

Isn't there a definition in the PHB or something for weapons that fire ammunition?


That seems far more complicated than players will want. I favor simple mechanics when possible. (or maybe my old group was just made up of idiots)

I'm not a fan of medium progression. We can think about whether to go with Will or Fort a bit longer. Worst comes to worst there's always a coin toss.

I'd go for Fortitude as the good save, since real snipers often have to endure harsh enviornmental conditions for long periods of time to take a shot.

"...you may add your class level to damage rolls on ranged attacks with a projectile weapon using proper ammuntion"

Also, I think autohypnosis matches the sleeping fluff better than concentration.

Dont forget to include point blank shot in the prerequsites.

imp_fireball
2010-08-16, 07:44 PM
I'm not a fan of medium progression. We can think about whether to go with Will or Fort a bit longer. Worst comes to worst there's always a coin toss.

Why aren't you a fan?

We could always make it both good for both. If enough player feedback says that having both as good progression is unbalanced, then modify it.


I'd go for Fortitude as the good save, since real snipers often have to endure harsh enviornmental conditions for long periods of time to take a shot.

Enduring weather conditions has hardly anything to do with fortitude. It's Con, I thought.

TabletopNuke
2010-08-17, 02:47 AM
Hey guys! I just spent like 30 minutes on the wrong section of the forum, trying to find my threads. (Was wondering why all the usernames were different)

I'd go for Fortitude as the good save, since real snipers often have to endure harsh enviornmental conditions for long periods of time to take a shot.

"...you may add your class level to damage rolls on ranged attacks with a projectile weapon using proper ammuntion"

Also, I think autohypnosis matches the sleeping fluff better than concentration.

Dont forget to include point blank shot in the prerequsites.
Made the suggested changes of Autohypnosis and good Fort (also added Point Blank Shot). Also changed the wording on Deadshot. Thanks!

Why aren't you a fan?
I don't want to complicate things more than I have to. I'm a fan of quick, streamlined rules. (I do use the fractional progression from UA though) It would be weird to only have a handful of classes with that anyway, and I haven't adapted the others for it.

We could always make it both good for both. If enough player feedback says that having both as good progression is unbalanced, then modify it.
I might do that (it's set to good progression Fort right now). I just realized how demanding the requirements for this class are. It would take up all your normal progression feats to qualify as soon as possible. Does that justify boosting this? Especially since Point Blank Shot doesn't really synergize well with the class.

Enduring weather conditions has hardly anything to do with fortitude. It's Con, I thought.
Is that a typo? Cause it looks like a typo. Fort saves are for hot weather, cold weather, keep from being knocked down by wind storms, ect.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-17, 03:27 AM
I meant for the verbage.... "ranged attacks with a projectile weapon using proper ammunition" to be used throughout the class.

Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficency (any ranged projectile weapon)

I would keep the requirements and DCs for autohypnosis/sleeping lower (2 ranks and DC 18 for instance) since the skill only has so many uses right now. Until you enter the class, those required ranks are likely going to be cross-class skills.

You could instead add 2 ranks autohypnosis to the requirements for the class... then expand the uses of Autohypnosis as part of the class to cover light sleeping and save the sniper 2 skill points. Besides, skill tricks are usually 1/encounter type things.

DracoDei
2010-08-18, 12:56 AM
Cross reference: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152550 (hope I am not ninja-ed).

TabletopNuke
2010-08-19, 01:28 AM
I meant for the verbage.... "ranged attacks with a projectile weapon using proper ammunition" to be used throughout the class.

Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficency (any ranged projectile weapon)

I would keep the requirements and DCs for autohypnosis/sleeping lower (2 ranks and DC 18 for instance) since the skill only has so many uses right now. Until you enter the class, those required ranks are likely going to be cross-class skills.

You could instead add 2 ranks autohypnosis to the requirements for the class... then expand the uses of Autohypnosis as part of the class to cover light sleeping and save the sniper 2 skill points. Besides, skill tricks are usually 1/encounter type things.
I'd heard that Autohypnosis was actually a pretty useful skill. Have you experienced trouble with it?

The skill trick thing had been a concern of mine. As far as making that a new Autohypnosis use, I'm not entirely sure how to go about doing that. Adjusting your body to get used to that kind of sleep schedule takes time. Would it be check made over a period of weeks? Would you have to take the check every few months?

Thanks Dei!

Andion Isurand
2010-08-19, 01:42 AM
I mean making the autohypnosis sleep method part of the class, so people don't have to drop 2 skill points into it as a skill trick.

TabletopNuke
2010-08-19, 04:17 PM
I mean making the autohypnosis sleep method part of the class, so people don't have to drop 2 skill points into it as a skill trick.
Hm...alright. What level would that go in at? 1st?

Andion Isurand
2010-08-19, 05:03 PM
Yep, sounds good.