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Drolyt
2010-01-31, 07:57 PM
Alright, I have a attempted to make Vow of Poverty actually useful. As a variant (described below) this can be used to make tier 4 and 5 classes more useful by reducing their dependence on items.
The Feat:

Vow of Poverty [General]
You have given up the pursuit of worldly goods, for personal, ascetic, or charitable reasons. In exchange you gain insight about the multiverse and access to your inner power.
Prerequisites: You must give away all worldly goods save what is necessary for your survival and your trade.
Benefits: You gain the following benefits depending on your ECL, as indicated on the table below.
Force Armor (Su): At 1st level you gain a +4 armor bonus to AC. This bonus increases to +5 at 3rd level, and increases by +1 every three levels thereafter. This bonus does not apply to touch attacks, but does apply to incorporeal touch attacks.
Deflection (Su): At 2nd level you gain a +2 deflection bonus to AC. This bonus increases to +3 at 6th level, and by an additional +1 every 6 levels thereafter.
Natural Armor (Ex): At 3rd level you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to natural armor. This bonus increases by +1 at 6th level and every 3 levels thereafter, to a maximum of +5 at 12th level.
Endure Elements (Ex): At 3rd level you become immune to the effects of being in a hot or cold environment. You can exist comfortably in conditions between -50 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit without having to make Fortitude saves (as described int the Dungeon Master's Guide).
Empowered Strike (Su): At 4th level you gain a +1 enhancement bonus on all attack and damage rolls. In effect, any weapon you wield functions as a +1 magic weapon, and can overcome the damage reduction of a creature as though it were a magic weapon. This enhancement increases by +1 at 8th level and every 4 levels thereafter. At 10th level any weapon you wield is also considered to have your alignment, so for example if you were Chaotic Good you would ignore damage reduction x/good and x/chaotic. At 7th level, and again every 4 levels thereafter, choose one of the following magic weapon special abilities to apply to any weapon you wield: Bane, Defending, Flaming, Frost, Ghost Touch, Keen, Ki Focus, Merciful, Mighty Cleaving, Spell Storing, Shock, Throwing, Thundering, Vicious.
Ability Score Enhancement (Ex): At 4th level you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to one ability score. At 8th level and every four levels thereafter you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to an additional ability score, and each previous ability's enhancement increases by +2.
Resistance (Ex): At 4th level you gain a +1 resistance bonus to saving throws. This bonus increases by +1 at 8th level and every 4 levels thereafter.
Sustenance (Ex): At 5th level you no longer need to eat or drink.
Bonus Feats: At 5th, 7th, 11th, 13th, 17th, and 19th levels you gain a bonus feat. You must meet all prerequisites for the feat.
Flight (Su): At 6th level you gain a fly speed equal to your base land speed with average maneuverability. At 12th level this increases to double your base land speed with good maneuverability, and at 18th level it increases again to triple your base land speed with perfect maneuverability.
Fortification (Ex): Starting at 7th level, when you are affected by a sneak attack or critical hit you have a chance to negate the effect and take normal damage, depending on level: 7th: 25% 11th: 50% 15th: 75% 19th: 100%.
Mind Shielding (Ex): At 8th level you become immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and any attempt to discern your alignment.
Damage Reduction (Su): You gain damage reduction 5/magic at 10th level. At 15th level this increases to 5/magic and silver (if you are lawful), or 5/magic and cold iron (if you are chaotic), or 5/magic and adamantine (if you are neutral). At 20th level this increases to 10/epic and silver (if you are lawful), or 10/epic and cold iron (if you are chaotic), or 10/epic and adamantine (if you are neutral).
Energy Resistance (Ex): At 10th level you gain resistance 5 against acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic energy. This increases to resistance 10 at 15th level and resistance 15 at 20th level.
Spell Resistance (Su): Starting at 11th level you gain spell resistance equal to your ECL + 10.
Greater Sustenance (Ex): At 12th level you no longer need to breath.
Freedom of Movement (Ex): Starting at 14th level you can act as if continually under the effect of a freedom of movement spell.
Regeneration (Ex): Starting at 17th level you heal 1 point of damage per level every hour rather than every day. (This ability cannot be aided by the Heal skill.) Nonlethal damage heals at a rate of 1 point of damage per level every 5 minutes.
True Seeing (Su): At 18th level you gain a continuous true seeing ability, as the spell.
Perfection: At 20th level you transcend mortal limits. You become an outsider, gaining the outsider type with appropriate alignment subtypes and the native subtype (though you do not need to eat, sleep, or breath).
Table:
[Spoiler]
Vow of Poverty
{table=head]Level|Benefits
1st|Force Armor +4
2nd|Deflection +2
3rd|Force Armor +5, Natural Armor +2, Endure Elements
4th|Empowered Strike +1, Ability Score Enhancement +2, Resistance +1
5th|Sustenance, Bonus Feat
6th|Force Armor +6, Deflection +3, Natural Armor +3, Flight (Base Land Speed, Average Maneuverability)
7th|Empowered Strike (Special Ability), Bonus Feat, Fortification (25%)
8th|Empowered Strike +2, Ability Score Enhancement +4/+2, Resistance +2, Mind Shielding
9th|Force Armor +7, Natural Armor +4
10th|Empowered Strike (Alignment), Damage Reduction (5/Magic), Energy Resistance (5)
11th|Empowered Strike (Special Ability), Bonus Feat, Fortification (50%), Spell Resistance
12th|Force Armor +8, Deflection +4, Natural Armor +5, Empowered Strike +3, Ability Score Enhancement +6/+4/+2, Resistance +3, Flight (Double Speed, Good Maneuverability), Greater Sustenance
13th|Bonus Feat
14th|Freedom of Movement
15th|Force Armor +9, Empowered Strike (Special Ability), Fortification (75%), Damage Reduction (5/varies), Energy Resistance (10)
16th|Empowered Strike +4, Ability Score Enhancement +8/+6/+4/+2, Resistance +4
17th|Bonus Feat, Regeneration
18th|Force Armor +10, Deflection +5, Flight (Triple Speed, Perfect Maneuverability), True Seeing
19th|Empowered Strike (Special Ability), Fortification (100%)
20th|Empowered Strike +5, Ability Score Enhancement +10/+8/+6/+4/+2, Resistance +5, Damage Reduction (10/varies), Energy Resistance (15), Perfection[/table]

Special: You may only own what you can carry, and only what is necessary to your survival (including clothing, food, and shelter), or to your trade. For example, a fighter may own a weapon, a thief thieves' tools, a wizard a spellbook, or a bard an instrument. At any rate you can never own more than 100 GP worth of items, and none of your possessions can be masterwork or magical in nature. If you are good aligned then any surplus wealth must be donated to the poor, if you are evil aligned you must destroy it in a sacrifice to a dark god or archfiend, and if you are neutral you may choose either option. If you gain a reward, such as treasure, while working/adventuring alone or in a party, you must donate/destroy your share of the reward as soon as is reasonable or lose all benefits of this feat until you do. If you use any masterwork or magical items then you lose the benefits of this feat until you make an atonement, though you can have others use magic items to your benefit without losing the benefits of this feat.
Special: A wizard who takes this feat may give up her scribe scroll and summon familiar class abilities in order to forgo the use of a spellbook. All her spells are instead stored within her own mind. She must learn spells normally, and may not pay for the privilege of scribing new spells, but now learns a greater number of free spells per level, and all the spells she knew when she takes this feat remain among her spells known. If she takes this feat at first level she knows 6 + Int modifier spells at first level. Moreover the wizard gains 4 spells at each new wizard level rather than 2, starting with the level she takes this feat.

Summary of Changes:

May be any alignment.
Does not require sacred vow.
You may own some items.
Fewer bonus feats, but may be any feats.
Bonuses increased (for example, you now get +5 to natural armor by 12th level and a +5 deflection bonus by 18th level).
Fortification starting at 7th level.
Spell Resistance starting at 11th level.
You now get weapon enchantments.
All bonuses are based on ECL (not sure if this was the case before).
Capstone ability that makes you an outsider.
That's about it. It is made into a much more attractive option for those who either like the flavor or (like me) hate dealing with magic items. For nonspellcasters it might actually be more powerful, at least for nonspellcasters that don't have UMD or some similar ability.

Analysis:

At 20th level the feats effective gp value is a little over 1,000,000 gp, depending on how you add things up. Many of the options however are subpar, so it is actually much lower, and there is no versatility. This is made up for by what are effectively 5 bonus feats (6 - the feat spent to gain these benefits). This is very powerful. Also several of the effects function in an anti-magic field when magic items do not, and a character with Vow of Poverty cannot lose these benefits to, say, thieves. I think all in all this works well, and it can also solve the problem with martial classes being too reliant on items (see variant below).

Variant:

To make martial classes more useful, give all tier 4, 5, and 6 classes this feat as a bonus feat, but take away the restrictions. They can have as many items as they want and they can have magic items. In other words they get all the benefits, but aren't actually taking a vow of poverty. They lose this feat if they multiclass as a spellcaster or martial adept.

Drolyt
2010-01-31, 08:17 PM
Alright finished editing. What does everyone think? Like it? Don't like it? Balanced? Too weak? Too powerful? Don't care? I need to know! It is vital for the salvation of the whole... okay, ignore that last part.

Temotei
2010-01-31, 08:18 PM
any weapon you wield becomes a +1 magic weapon


none of your possessions can be masterwork or magical

I recommend changing that. :smallsigh:

Drolyt
2010-01-31, 08:27 PM
I recommend changing that. :smallsigh:

I'll try to come up with better wording, but mind you that is the exact wording from BoED, and that version also forbids you to own/use magic items. Edit: I've changed it to functions as.

Agi Hammerthief
2010-01-31, 08:30 PM
I'm missing the "loss of benefits" disclaimer if the vow is broken.

how about:

- must collect his share of the loot
- ECL penalty** = (Wealth[gp] * Time owned[weeks])/(1000 * Level)

=> a fifth level character has 1 week time to get rid of 5000 gp worth of loot


** for the purpose of calculating benefits from this feat

Temotei
2010-01-31, 08:31 PM
I'm missing the "loss of benefits" disclaimer if the vow is broken.

how about:

* must collect his share of the loot
* ECL penalty = (Wealth[gp] * Time owned[weeks])/(1000 * Level)

=> a fifth level character has 1 week time to get rid of 5000 gp worth of loot

But that cuts out the possibility of a villain throwing gold at you and thereby ruining all features of this feat!

Drolyt
2010-01-31, 08:38 PM
I'm missing the "loss of benefits" disclaimer if the vow is broken.

how about:

- must collect his share of the loot
- ECL penalty** = (Wealth[gp] * Time owned[weeks])/(1000 * Level)

=> a fifth level character has 1 week time to get rid of 5000 gp worth of loot


** for the purpose of calculating benefits from this feat

Good point. I fixed it. I just have it read "If you gain a reward, such as treasure, while working/adventuring alone or in a party, you must donate/destroy your share of the reward as soon as is reasonable or lose all benefits of this feat until you do."


But that cuts out the possibility of a villain throwing gold at you and thereby ruining all features of this feat!
A DM who did that should be forever barred from DMing. Seriously, I've had DMs like that, who liked to torture the players. It was actually kind of fun, but still.

Agi Hammerthief
2010-01-31, 08:43 PM
But that cuts out the possibility of a villain throwing gold at you and thereby ruining all features of this feat!
it also ruins the boost to the entire group by simply refusing to take your share


Good point. I fixed it. I just have it read "If you gain a reward, such as treasure, while working/adventuring alone or in a party, you must donate/destroy your share of the reward as soon as is reasonable or lose all benefits of this feat until you do."
ok for the simplicity

but adding a time limit and gradually decreasing the benefits makes a good slightly evil hook for role playing.

Drolyt
2010-01-31, 08:56 PM
it also ruins the boost to the entire group by simply refusing to take your share


ok for the simplicity

but adding a time limit and gradually decreasing the benefits makes a good slightly evil hook for role playing.

I actually liked that idea, I just think its too complicated.

jiriku
2010-02-01, 12:38 PM
Making the progression based on ECL instead of level is a good choice. most effects don't include LA when scaling, but a character with LA doesn't get less gold when the party splits loot -- he shouldn't get less benefit from VoP for waiving his gold either.

Drolyt
2010-02-01, 12:49 PM
Making the progression based on ECL instead of level is a good choice. most effects don't include LA when scaling, but a character with LA doesn't get less gold when the party splits loot -- he shouldn't get less benefit from VoP for waiving his gold either.

Yeah, I always thought it was weird how few effects scaled by ECL. I guess WotC really only threw in level adjustment as an afterthought though. This feet should be particularly potent for high LA races due to the bonus feats, which should help with the fact that high LA races tend to play very poorly.

Zexion
2010-02-01, 08:48 PM
Special: You may only own what you can carry, and only what is necessary to your survival (including clothing, food, and shelter), or to your trade. For example, a fighter may own a weapon, a thief thieves' tools, a wizard a spellbook, or a bard an instrument. At any rate you can never own more than 100 GP worth of items, and none of your possessions can be masterwork or magical in nature.
Wouldn't a wizard's spellbook automatically be magical in nature?

arguskos
2010-02-01, 08:53 PM
Wouldn't a wizard's spellbook automatically be magical in nature?
Yes, but then you can't play an ascetic wizard, which would be a fun character to play. It's only fair they get the only piece of gear that matters to them.

Drolyt
2010-02-01, 08:54 PM
Wouldn't a wizard's spellbook automatically be magical in nature?

How do you figure? Does it register with detect magic?

Yes, but then you can't play an ascetic wizard, which would be a fun character to play. It's only fair they get the only piece of gear that matters to them.
How do you guys figure?

FlamingKobold
2010-02-01, 08:56 PM
How does a wizard pay for scribing spells? Or does it become free? Can they have multiple spellbooks? Otherwise wouldn't they be severely limited?

arguskos
2010-02-01, 08:57 PM
How do you guys figure?
I'm arguing that letting a Wizard have his spellbook is good, dude. Taking it away for being a magical object is silly, since it makes that archetype unplayable. :smallwink:

Drolyt
2010-02-01, 09:00 PM
How does a wizard pay for scribing spells? Or does it become free? Can they have multiple spellbooks? Otherwise wouldn't they be severely limited?

Um, DM's decision? You could argue that is all stuff essential to the trade. It's hard to make this stuff work for wizards. Even if you could scribe spells for free, a few spells and your spellbook is worth over the 100 GP limit. Really though, if the DM allows this feat he should be fine with bending the rules for wizards.

Drolyt
2010-02-01, 09:01 PM
I'm arguing that letting a Wizard have his spellbook is good, dude. Taking it away for being a magical object is silly, since it makes that archetype unplayable. :smallwink:

Yeah, but you also said yes, and I want to know why. I'm thinking it is magical if it has an aura, do spellbooks have an aura? I didn't think they did, I thought they were just ink and wood. I might be wrong.

arguskos
2010-02-01, 09:03 PM
Yeah, but you also said yes, and I want to know why. I'm thinking it is magical if it has an aura, do spellbooks have an aura? I didn't think they did, I thought they were just ink and wood. I might be wrong.
Well, they're filled to the brim with spells of arcane power, I'd assume they're magic-ish. I really don't think it matters though, each DM will rule as they see fit on the idea.

Drolyt
2010-02-01, 09:06 PM
Well, they're filled to the brim with spells of arcane power, I'd assume they're magic-ish. I really don't think it matters though, each DM will rule as they see fit on the idea.

A DM that allows this feat but not with wizards is strange. One because there is no good reason to do so, and two because it actually decreases the wizards overall power level (most of the abilities are more useful for martial classes, you can't get things like rings of wizardry or metamagic rods). At any rate I guess its up to the individual DM, the feat as written should be fine for pretty much any other class.

arguskos
2010-02-01, 09:07 PM
A DM that allows this feat but not with wizards is strange. One because there is no good reason to do so, and two because it actually decreases the wizards overall power level (most of the abilities are more useful for martial classes, you can't get things like rings of wizardry or metamagic rods). At any rate I guess its up to the DM, the feat as written should be fine for pretty much any other class.
I'd agree. Hell, I'd actually like to use this, and will probably steal it for testing in my current game.

Drolyt
2010-02-01, 09:09 PM
I'd agree. Hell, I'd actually like to use this, and will probably steal it for testing in my current game.

That would be cool. If you do could you report back with your findings?

Draz74
2010-02-01, 09:16 PM
What's the reasoning behind the lack of Flight? That's often stated as one of the major problems with VoP.

Also, your table doesn't include improvements to Force Armor on it. Up to you whether it should.

arguskos
2010-02-01, 09:17 PM
That would be cool. If you do could you report back with your findings?
Happily. Also, I totally missed that there is no flight. What's that about? :smalltongue:

Drolyt
2010-02-01, 09:22 PM
What's the reasoning behind the lack of Flight? That's often stated as one of the major problems with VoP.

Also, your table doesn't include improvements to Force Armor on it. Up to you whether it should.


Happily. Also, I totally missed that there is no flight. What's that about?
You know, the whole time I was making this I thought I was forgetting something deathly important about why VoP wasn't very good. I'll get to fixing that. I'll also fix the table, nice catch. Thanks.

arguskos
2010-02-01, 09:24 PM
You know, the whole time I was making this I thought I was forgetting something deathly important about why VoP wasn't very good. I'll get to fixing that. I'll also fix the table, nice catch. Thanks.
I recommend it at level 7. That's a good point to get flight, since casters already got it at 5.

Drolyt
2010-02-01, 09:27 PM
I recommend it at level 7. That's a good point to get flight, since casters already got it at 5.

I put it at 6th. That gives casters a level of breathing room. Also VoPs flight is weaker till 12th level, which is a bit more balanced. It actually becomes stronger at 18th level, but that's just for fun. Edit: Should I add some sort of ability to travel the planes?

Zexion
2010-02-01, 09:27 PM
Just to clarify, yes, I agree with the idea that wizards should be allowed their spellbooks. Perhaps, however, VoP Wizards should be able to remember all of their own spells. A bit of concentration is required at the beginning of the day to "tune in" to the world's energy and convert them into spells. Just a thought.

Drolyt
2010-02-01, 09:30 PM
Just to clarify, yes, I agree with the idea that wizards should be allowed their spellbooks. Perhaps, however, VoP Wizards should be able to remember all of their own spells. A bit of concentration is required at the beginning of the day to "tune in" to the world's energy and convert them into spells. Just a thought.

Hmm... that requires me to write extra rules just for the wizard. In my wizard redux I'm working on the spellbook is inside his head, kind of like the spirit shaman's spirit, and it's more of a focusing aid then anything. I could add in something like that.

arguskos
2010-02-01, 09:30 PM
Just to clarify, yes, I agree with the idea that wizards should be allowed their spellbooks. Perhaps, however, VoP Wizards should be able to remember all of their own spells. A bit of concentration is required at the beginning of the day to "tune in" to the world's energy and convert them into spells. Just a thought.
Ah, well, yes, that makes sense. Perhaps give them the Eidetic Wizard (basically what you just said) alternative from Dragon #313 instead of a spellbook?

Drolyt
2010-02-01, 09:32 PM
Ah, well, yes, that makes sense. Perhaps give them the Eidetic Wizard (basically what you just said) alternative from Dragon #313 instead of a spellbook?

As I've tried to explain to numerous DMs, I don't have old copies of Dragon lying around in my dorm. :smalltongue: I'll check crystal keep, but failing that is there a link that explains that ability?

arguskos
2010-02-01, 09:40 PM
As I've tried to explain to numerous DMs, I don't have old copies of Dragon lying around in my dorm. :smalltongue: I'll check crystal keep, but failing that is there a link that explains that ability?
...it's exactly what it says on the tin? You memorize your spells rather than having a spellbook. Everything works exactly the same. :smalltongue:

Drolyt
2010-02-01, 09:41 PM
Found it. I'll add something to the op about it.

Drolyt
2010-02-01, 09:46 PM
...it's exactly what it says on the tin? You memorize your spells rather than having a spellbook. Everything works exactly the same. :smalltongue:

Alright I've added it under the special section. You have to give up Scribe Scroll and Summon Familiar, but neither of those could actually be used with VoP.

Zexion
2010-02-01, 10:12 PM
I like the change. Although for wizards, a bonus to AC is really useful.

Jane_Smith
2010-02-01, 10:17 PM
D00ds. Wizard's dont need spellbooks. They can tattoo spells on their skin as a spellbook. Not to mention they can take Spell Mastery.

Drolyt
2010-02-01, 10:19 PM
D00ds. Wizard's dont need spellbooks. They can tattoo spells on their skin as a spellbook. Not to mention they can take Spell Mastery.

Oddly enough, Spell Mastery doesn't work without a spellbook. It's only useful for somebody who has a spellbook and then loses it. Also the tatoos still cost money, which defeats the purpose of this feat. I think my fix works better.

I like the change. Although for wizards, a bonus to AC is really useful.
Not as much as many of the magic items the wizard will be missing out on.

arguskos
2010-02-01, 10:20 PM
D00ds. Wizard's dont need spellbooks. They can tattoo spells on their skin as a spellbook. Not to mention they can take Spell Mastery.
The former is just as much a variant as Eidetic Spellcaster, and the latter is only good for a handful of spells and only one prestige class (though that PrC is AWESOME).

In any case, a tattooed VoP wizard would be good too.

Zexion
2010-02-01, 10:22 PM
The former is just as much a variant as Eidetic Spellcaster, and the latter is only good for a handful of spells and only one prestige class (though that PrC is AWESOME).

In any case, a tattooed VoP wizard would be good too.

No kidding.
Four words. Archmage. Vow. Of. Poverty.

Drolyt
2010-02-01, 10:28 PM
No kidding.
Four words. Archmage. Vow. Of. Poverty.

That would be sweet. VoP would also cut down on the absurd feat requirements.

Surgo
2010-02-01, 10:58 PM
If you're level 5, you can use Secret Page to make a spellbook and not spend any cash on it.

Drolyt
2010-02-01, 10:59 PM
If you're level 5, you can use Secret Page to make a spellbook and not spend any cash on it.

Technically it's still worth the same amount though, so evil DMs will try to ruin this feat for them (though why said DM would've allowed the feat in the first place I'm not sure).

Zexion
2010-02-02, 12:16 AM
If you're level 5, you can use Secret Page to make a spellbook and not spend any cash on it.

The spell? I think that costs cash, or, if not cash, then just think about what you are doing. You are making a page that you will use almost every day that you have made invisible.

blueblade
2010-02-02, 01:13 AM
Question: With the diminishing ECL being the only penalty for violation, what stops my VoP fighter picking up and using a +5 weapon for the duration of the next encounter? As far as I can see, nothing. Since it's only a small fraction of a week, I lose no ECL.

In fact, I could kit myself out in full for a major encounter I know is coming up, then get rid of it all afterward, with no penalty.

imp_fireball
2010-02-02, 02:01 AM
If you are good aligned then any surplus wealth must be donated to the poor, if you are evil aligned you must destroy it in a sacrifice to a dark god or archfiend, and if you are neutral you may choose either option.

Why not destroy your possessions just to make your team mates cry at not getting the opportunity to have or sell them and then kick a dog for good measure if you're evil? Atheists can be evil too. :smalltongue:

Also, if you're good, the moral policy should be GM defined. Donating to the poor is a cliche example. But it could also be something like a project that the community supports (the lawful good solution), or the funding of a rebellion against a tyrant (the chaotic good solution). Those are just examples, obviously.


In fact, I could kit myself out in full for a major encounter I know is coming up, then get rid of it all afterward, with no penalty.

Take a level in Hur Priest to reassert your ability to find ways of defying the gods making you lose your feat features first.

Drolyt
2010-02-02, 07:10 AM
Question: With the diminishing ECL being the only penalty for violation, what stops my VoP fighter picking up and using a +5 weapon for the duration of the next encounter? As far as I can see, nothing. Since it's only a small fraction of a week, I lose no ECL.

In fact, I could kit myself out in full for a major encounter I know is coming up, then get rid of it all afterward, with no penalty.

What diminishing ECL? Someone suggested something like that in the comments, but its not in the feat. If you use even a single magic item you lose the benefits of this feat until you make an atonement.

Why not destroy your possessions just to make your team mates cry at not getting the opportunity to have or sell them and then kick a dog for good measure if you're evil? Atheists can be evil too.

Also, if you're good, the moral policy should be GM defined. Donating to the poor is a cliche example. But it could also be something like a project that the community supports (the lawful good solution), or the funding of a rebellion against a tyrant (the chaotic good solution). Those are just examples, obviously.
I'll add in something saying that with DMs approval you can do other things with your wealth. Also, I don't think there are atheists in most D&D campaigns. The gods like to smash in their windows.

Zexion
2010-02-07, 06:06 PM
Why not destroy your possessions just to make your team mates cry at not getting the opportunity to have or sell them and then kick a dog for good measure if you're evil? Atheists can be evil too. :smalltongue:

Also, if you're good, the moral policy should be GM defined. Donating to the poor is a cliche example. But it could also be something like a project that the community supports (the lawful good solution), or the funding of a rebellion against a tyrant (the chaotic good solution). Those are just examples, obviously.



Take a level in Hur Priest to reassert your ability to find ways of defying the gods making you lose your feat features first.

Or you could donate as a Good person would, but instead towards an Evil cause. For example, a Hobgoblin orphanage that trains the little ones to fight the Good guys.

Drolyt
2010-02-07, 06:32 PM
Or you could donate as a Good person would, but instead towards an Evil cause. For example, a Hobgoblin orphanage that trains the little ones to fight the Good guys.

I'm not sure how strictly evil that one is. It's still an orphanage, even if its a Hobgoblin orphanage where they learn to fight the Hobgoblin's enemies.

Zexion
2010-02-07, 07:59 PM
Well, what about an "orphanage" where the children of the slain enemies of the Hobgoblin race are fattened up before eating? That Evil enough for you?
MWAHAHAHAHA

Drolyt
2010-02-07, 08:09 PM
Well, what about an "orphanage" where the children of the slain enemies of the Hobgoblin race are fattened up before eating? That Evil enough for you?
MWAHAHAHAHA

Hmm, well the villains in my campaigns don't usually carry cards, and at any rate that just seems horribly impractical.

Ralasha
2010-06-12, 03:31 AM
One problem I have with the inability to gain treasure with the VoP is this: You cannot save money for those who need it. You cannot save money to build a temple. You cannot save money to help a starving community. You cannot save money for any reason noble, or otherwise. Because: You cannot have money. "I'm sorry sally, you're little brother had to starve to death horribly, because I'm not allowed to have money to save people's lives, or for any other reason. He had to die, don't worry though, you can't eat either because you have no food. You'll soon be joining him." I'm a hero!

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-12, 04:07 AM
One problem I have with the inability to gain treasure with the VoP is this: You cannot save money for those who need it. You cannot save money to build a temple. You cannot save money to help a starving community. You cannot save money for any reason noble, or otherwise. Because: You cannot have money. "I'm sorry sally, you're little brother had to starve to death horribly, because I'm not allowed to have money to save people's lives, or for any other reason. He had to die, don't worry though, you can't eat either because you have no food. You'll soon be joining him." I'm a hero!

This is an issue with VoP in general, not just this version. Was it really worth necro-ing this one just to say that?

It says you give it to charity as soon as is reasonable. As long as you genuinely plan to submit it to the needy I would let you keep money until you found a worthy cause.

Found being the operative word; you're an ascetic, not Bono. By accepting a life of material abstinence you acknowledge that you can't hoarde wealth, and the most worthy cause is the one you can help right now, not the starving kids in a particular village that you might happen across in 6 months (though if you take the necessary steps: begging for paper and postal services to inform the recipients I would let you earmark the wealth for a particular cause, assuming it was in your direct path).

Ralasha
2010-06-12, 05:06 PM
This is an issue with VoP in general, not just this version. Was it really worth necro-ing this one just to say that?

It says you give it to charity as soon as is reasonable. As long as you genuinely plan to submit it to the needy I would let you keep money until you found a worthy cause.

Found being the operative word; you're an ascetic, not Bono. By accepting a life of material abstinence you acknowledge that you can't hoarde wealth, and the most worthy cause is the one you can help right now, not the starving kids in a particular village that you might happen across in 6 months (though if you take the necessary steps: begging for paper and postal services to inform the recipients I would let you earmark the wealth for a particular cause, assuming it was in your direct path).

I actually have a fix for that myself, which a DM of mine came up with, where Vow of Poverty allows a certain ammount of money to be held by the person with the vow based upon their level, though they cannot spend any money upon their self. It was something small, like 5 silver per hit die. It was allowed for such instances as that. They may hold it in case they come across someone in need. If they ever spend any of it for their own need, they loose vow of poverty until they perform an attonement.

Khaladon
2010-06-13, 10:51 AM
What diminishing ECL? Someone suggested something like that in the comments, but its not in the feat. If you use even a single magic item you lose the benefits of this feat until you make an atonement.


I'm assuming this statement doesn't apply to the Variant Rule you came up with?

Also, I've never come across the term "Class Tier" before. Would someone mind listing what classes fall into which tiers? Or at least pointing to a link which does so?

Finally, I haven't seen anyone speak about the Variant Rule yet; what are the general thoughts on it?

jiriku
2010-06-13, 11:45 AM
JaronK's Tier System of Classes (http://http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)

FYI Drolyt, if you're still paying attention to this thread: I like the recent changes involving the wizard spellbook. Well done.

Duskranger
2010-06-13, 03:46 PM
Maybe a stupid question, but would it be possible to let this one go into the Epic levels?

I mean what would be the progression of this feat in that case?

Ralasha
2010-06-13, 11:38 PM
that link is broken, try again squidworth.

Custos Sophiae
2010-06-14, 06:54 AM
Extending into epic should be straighforwards, since many of the abilities are at regular anyway.

Force armour applies every third level, so +11 armour bonus at level 21 etc. Deflection is also regular, +6 deflection bonus at level 24, etc. Natural armour is capped, and endure elements only applies once, so neither extends to epic. Empowered strike is regular, but at epic levels should also allow for epic enchantments: alignment blast, dread, ever-dancing.

Ability enhancement, resistance, energy resistance, and spell resistance all extrapolate smoothly. Extend the bonus feats to epic bonus feats every nth level, adjusting for balance. Sustenance, greater sustenance, mind shielding and fortification don't extend. Flight could be extended, with a speed up every 6 levels, but teleport probably work better. Throw in plane shift, to the alignment plane only, both gained at level 24. Damage reduction can continue increasing by 5 every 5 levels.

The remaining abilities are only gained once, so wouldn't extend. Possibly though, being an outsider, you could start gaining spells from the appropriate alignment domain every nth level, frequency adjusted for balance. E.g at level 21, and every 3rd level after, gain your choice of spells from the alignment domain: first and second level spells usable at will as a supernatural ability, third through fifth at will as a SLA, sixth through eight 3/day, and 9th 1/day. For slightly more flexibility, neutral good/evil/law/chaos get to pick from 2 additional compatible domains as well as their alignment, while the other alignments get both component alignment domains plus one other. True neutrals get free choice of 3 domains.

Drolyt
2010-06-14, 10:44 AM
Extending into epic should be straighforwards, since many of the abilities are at regular anyway.

Force armour applies every third level, so +11 armour bonus at level 21 etc. Deflection is also regular, +6 deflection bonus at level 24, etc. Natural armour is capped, and endure elements only applies once, so neither extends to epic. Empowered strike is regular, but at epic levels should also allow for epic enchantments: alignment blast, dread, ever-dancing.

Ability enhancement, resistance, energy resistance, and spell resistance all extrapolate smoothly. Extend the bonus feats to epic bonus feats every nth level, adjusting for balance. Sustenance, greater sustenance, mind shielding and fortification don't extend. Flight could be extended, with a speed up every 6 levels, but teleport probably work better. Throw in plane shift, to the alignment plane only, both gained at level 24. Damage reduction can continue increasing by 5 every 5 levels.

The remaining abilities are only gained once, so wouldn't extend. Possibly though, being an outsider, you could start gaining spells from the appropriate alignment domain every nth level, frequency adjusted for balance. E.g at level 21, and every 3rd level after, gain your choice of spells from the alignment domain: first and second level spells usable at will as a supernatural ability, third through fifth at will as a SLA, sixth through eight 3/day, and 9th 1/day. For slightly more flexibility, neutral good/evil/law/chaos get to pick from 2 additional compatible domains as well as their alignment, while the other alignments get both component alignment domains plus one other. True neutrals get free choice of 3 domains.

This is more or less how it would go for Epic Levels. Most of the gains are incremental, just increase them. Beyond that I'm not sure, I'm not good with balance at Epic levels (not that there is much).

NecroticPunch
2010-06-14, 12:29 PM
I'm not sure if this is addressed in here... But how does a wizard cast spells that require a costly material component. For example; a wizard would be casting something similar to ' Animate Dead ' and would be required to have a onyx gem worth a value. Because of this, you wouldn't be able to cast many spells.

Duskranger
2010-06-14, 12:31 PM
Most of the time a VoP-wizard material costs are XP-costs. If I am correct it's 12,5 gp/1 xp

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-14, 12:31 PM
I'm not sure if this is addressed in here... But how does a wizard cast spells that require a costly material component. For example; a wizard would be casting something similar to ' Animate Dead ' and would be required to have a onyx gem worth a value. Because of this, you wouldn't be able to cast many spells.

One of the other party members can buy it for you and hold it until it's needed. Otherwise tough luck, it's your own fault for giving up material possessions.

Tavar
2010-06-14, 12:41 PM
I'm not sure if this is addressed in here... But how does a wizard cast spells that require a costly material component. For example; a wizard would be casting something similar to ' Animate Dead ' and would be required to have a onyx gem worth a value. Because of this, you wouldn't be able to cast many spells.

Actually, most spells don't require such a cost, so most concepts are still fine. And as the others said, you can always use XP instead of gp.


To the OP, was leaving out the Flaming enhancement intentional?

Duskranger
2010-06-14, 12:47 PM
To the OP about the enhancements, isn't it better to put there a +1 enhancement. Since there are a lot more +1 enhancements than you have putted down there.

And why couldn't someone pick a +2 enhancement if he was at a higher level?

Custos Sophiae
2010-06-14, 01:02 PM
That would be more flexible - any +1 enhancement at level 7, any+2 enhancement or combination at level 11, with total bonus increasing by one every four levels there after, and epic enhancements available once the total bonus rises to +6 at level 27. The precise enhancements can be potentially reassigned every time the bonus goes up.

Vaynor
2010-06-14, 01:19 PM
A note for epic level extension - you could extend mind shielding to mind blank.

Ralasha
2010-06-14, 07:13 PM
Actually there is an epic ability idea for VOP that could act as an extention of endure elements/sust. and it would be an ability to endure extraplanar effects.

Vaynor
2010-06-15, 02:05 PM
Here's something that might work for epic VoP, I increased the speed at which you gain some abilities because it's epic, added mind blank at 21, gave them teleportation and plane shift, and then an eventual demigod status. Everything not noted below the table works as it does with normal VoP, but is gained at the level indicated on the table.

Epic VoP


Level
Benefits


21
Force Armor +11, Mind Blank, Bonus Feat


22
Empowered Strike +6, Empowered Strike (Enhancement) +5


23
Resistance +6, Teleportation, Flight (4 times base speed), Domain


24
Force Armor +12, Ability Score Enhancement +12/+10/+8/+6/+4/+2, Deflection +6


25
Empowered Strike +7, Energy Resistance 20, Bonus Feat, Damage Reduction (15/varies)


26
Resistance +7, Empowered Strike (Enhancement) +6, Domain


27
Force Armor +13, Plane Shift, Flight (5 times base speed)


28
Ability Score Enhancement +14/+12/+10/+8/+6/+4, Empowered Strike +8


29
Resistance +8, Bonus Feat, Wish, Domain


30
Enlightenment, Force Armor +14, Deflection +7, Empowered Strike (Enhancement) +7, Energy Immunity, Damage Reduction (20/varies)



Mind Blank (Su): At level 21 the character gains a mind blank effect, as the spell mind blank.

Empowered Strike: At level 22, and every 3 levels thereafter, the weapons you wield's enhancement bonus increases by +1. Additionally, at level 22, and every 4 levels thereafter, you gain an additional enhancement bonus (+5 at level 22, +6 at level 26, etc.) that can be used to add weapon enhancements to the weapons you wield. This enhancement bonus may be used for any magical weapon ability, and can be reallocated when you gain a level.

Domain (Sp): At level 23 you may select a single domain. You gain 9 spell-like abilities, one for each spell level. These SLA's are usable 1/day. You also gain the domain ability if it applies to your classes. At level 26 you may select another domain, or lose access to your previous domain and gain a planar domain (SpC 282). A planar domain is effectively two domains). You gain 18 SLA's when you gain a planar domain, two for each spell level. You must meet all prerequisites for planar domains. At level 29 you gain a third domain (or second, if you chose to use a planar domain). Use your highest ability score to determine pertinent information such as Difficulty Class. Your caster level for these SLA's is equal to your ECL. You may choose the same domain twice, gaining each SLA twice instead of just once. However, you do not gain the effects of the domain ability twice.

If the character already has access to domains from a class, then the spells from the domains selected are considered domain spells for that class only. For example, a level 23 cleric with the Law and Healing domains that selected Sun as their level 23 domain could prepare any spell from the Sun domain in their domain spell slots, as well as any spell from the Law and Healing domains as normal.

Energy Immunity: At level 30 you may select an energy type. You are now immune to that energy type.

Teleportation (Su): At level 23 you gain the ability to teleport at will. By concentrating for one minute, you may teleport as the spell greater teleport. This ability only affects you.

Plane Shift (Su): At level 27 you gain the ability to plane shift at will. By concentrating for five minutes, you may shift planes as the spell plane shift. This ability only affects you.

Wish (Sp): At level 29 you gain the ability to cast wish once per day. The base 5,000 XP cost is halved, however any additional XP costs incurred by wish must be paid in full.

Enlightenment (Ex): You have achieved the pinnacle of your spiritual enlightenment. At level 30, you become a quasi-deity, granting divine rank 0. You are immortal, and no longer can die from old age. Additionally, you no longer suffer aging penalties (any previously incurred penalties are still in effect) but still gain the benefits of aging. You gain benefits of being a quasi-deity with divine rank 0, including and limited to the following: all future hit die are maximized, your base land speed increases to 60 ft., a deflection bonus to your AC equal to your Charisma modifier, immunity to transmutation, immunity to energy drain, ability damage, and ability drain. You are not able to grant spells.



If there are some more cool ability ideas I could slow down progressions and add some in.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-15, 03:06 PM
I like the Epic Progression. 1 nitpick though: Divine Rank 0 = Quasi God not Demigod. Demigod = DvR 1-5.

Drolyt
2010-06-15, 03:29 PM
I'll make the changes about weapon enancements. As for epic levels, I currently have no plans to implement that. The post above me has a good system though.

imp_fireball
2010-06-15, 03:38 PM
Well, what about an "orphanage" where the children of the slain enemies of the Hobgoblin race are fattened up before eating? That Evil enough for you?

Even more evil: They're trained and brain washed to suicide bomb other orphanages and/or towns. Or groomed for sacrifice to an evil god or as guinea pigs for magical experiments (necromancy included).

Even that might not denote an 'evil' orphanage (it could just be a product of ignorance). But an evil VoP guy who knows better and donates there is commiting a clear act of evil since he's promoting more of it.

Vaynor
2010-06-15, 03:39 PM
I like the Epic Progression. 1 nitpick though: Divine Rank 0 = Quasi God not Demigod. Demigod = DvR 1-5.

Bah, same thing.

Fixed. :smalltongue:

Anyone have any ideas for level 29? Not much going on there and it's a pretty high level.

imp_fireball
2010-06-15, 03:42 PM
{Scrubbed}

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-15, 03:44 PM
Bah, same thing.

Fixed. :smalltongue:

Anyone have any ideas for level 29? Not much going on there and it's a pretty high level.

That's why I called it a nitpick :smallwink:

Wish 1/day maybe (limited to the listed effects)? Just off the top of my head, that might be horribly unbalanced.

imp_fireball
2010-06-15, 03:47 PM
That's why I called it a nitpick :smallwink:

Wish 1/day maybe (limited to the listed effects)? Just off the top of my head, that might be horribly unbalanced.

How about in order to become epic with VoP (gain epic benefits) you must please the right gods. This depends on your alignment and the gods that you do please are at GM discretion. Pleasing the gods really just means earning their favor depending on your actions over the past 20 levels (so no additional things need to be done; although it could be GM's discretion whether they want to throw in an additional quest).

You could gain wish, but its the gods (the ones who granted you the epic VoP stuff) decision to fulfill the wish. Usually, the wish must stay strongly in line with the philosophy behind VoP (the concerning gods' philosophy).

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-15, 03:48 PM
How about in order to become epic with VoP (gain epic benefits) you must please the right gods. This depends on your alignment and the gods that you do please are at GM discretion.

You could gain wish, but its the gods (the ones who granted you the epic VoP stuff) decision to fulfill the wish. Usually, the wish must stay strongly in line with the philosophy behind VoP (the concerning god's philosophy).

Thing about this VoP is that it is a personal choice to eschew material possessions not something decided by your alignment or the god you follow. Atheists are welcome to take this too.

imp_fireball
2010-06-15, 03:50 PM
Atheists are welcome to take this too.

Even atheists can attract the attention of the gods. The flexibility of VoP determines exactly what kind of gods the character attracts (the character doesn't need to be aware of the god's existence either; they merely show up because the character has impressed them).

Tome
2010-06-15, 04:57 PM
Even atheists can attract the attention of the gods. The flexibility of VoP determines exactly what kind of gods the character attracts (the character doesn't need to be aware of the god's existence either; they merely show up because the character has impressed them).

This could ruin a lot of themes that an atheist VoP character could be using. I, personally, feel that it would be a horrible idea. This works much better if it doesn't require any divine involvement. Also, it would be totally borked if you used it in Eberron.

Ralasha
2010-06-15, 05:21 PM
An Atheist can still be a True Believer, it just requires a tweek, instead of believing in a god, they believe there is no god, in this way you could add that as a prerequisite for Epic VOP. It would also help to explain the Deific changes, also: deities of any rank do not need Wish, they can alter reality. Think of their DvR as coming from their faith, and being an effect of it. Also, a hero deity/quasi-deity can grant spells. Every Deity has at least one domain, even if it is shared. A Rank 0 Deity in Faerun for instance, with the magic domain, would have to be one that believes in a god of magic. In turn however, for an Atheist, you could grant them DvR 0 and give them other abilities instead, such as a Divine Power Resistance, their belief that you have no power is so great that you have difficulty effecting them.

imp_fireball
2010-06-15, 05:28 PM
This could ruin a lot of themes that an atheist VoP character could be using. I, personally, feel that it would be a horrible idea. This works much better if it doesn't require any divine involvement. Also, it would be totally borked if you used it in Eberron.

Well, it varies from setting to setting. Some settings have no gods at all or the gods don't care enough about mortal affairs and divine spell casting is merely a psychic 'trickle down' affect of faith in given deities - or perhaps those deities don't exist at all and it is faith in the domains that grants power, and mortals merely attach belief and moral ideology to it as they like, spinning tall tales of supposed gods that represent their faith - some could be mere mascots while others could be treated very seriously despite being entirely fictional (fiction within fiction).

If the powers of an atheist have to be entirely mundane, then perhaps an outsider has been pleased or the atheist themself has transcended certain forces of the universe that keep him mortal.

You could include that as an exception (foot note or whatever) below what I've already said in the above post.

I understand that the above post I wrote works better for agnostics rather then atheists.

God: Congratulations Mortimer, your path in life has pleased me to no end. I shall now grant you such powers as to further our uniting ideals.

Mortimer the Atheist: But I don't believe in you so how can you grant me powers?

God: Your belief in me matters not, for you have pleased me such that I present myself before you. It is my belief in you that has brought me here at this hour and I am now here to embolden your future undertakings in my image. For it coallesces with your own no doubt.

Motimer the Atheist: Bah, I refuse to acknowledge your status! You are no god, just a wizard most likely.

God: I'm sorry? Here I am giving you powers to further your ideals which match my own and you won't even acknowledge my grandeur? That's pretty rude y'know.

Mortimer the Atheist: This conversation is over.

God: B-but -

Mortimer the Atheist: I'm leaving!

God: Aw, you're no fun.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-15, 05:30 PM
An Atheist can still be a True Believer, it just requires a tweek, instead of believing in a god, they believe there is no god, in this way you could add that as a prerequisite for Epic VOP. It would also help to explain the Deific changes, also: deities of any rank do not need Wish, they can alter reality. Think of their DvR as coming from their faith, and being an effect of it. Also, a hero deity/quasi-deity can grant spells. Every Deity has at least one domain, even if it is shared. A Rank 0 Deity in Faerun for instance, with the magic domain, would have to be one that believes in a god of magic.

DvR0 doesn't give Salient Divine Abilities, so no, they can't Alter Reality.

I don't believe even that explanation works either. Not everyone either ffollows a God/ignores them entirely. A good example is :roy:, he knows they exist but they have absolutely no impact on his life except to power his hairy friend's healing abilities.

Why should someone like that (who has never had any connection to a God) be forced to do as that God he has never followed says, just because he hit a certain level.

It would work in some cases, but in some it completely undermines the character.

imp_fireball
2010-06-15, 05:41 PM
DvR0 doesn't give Salient Divine Abilities, so no, they can't Alter Reality.

I don't believe even that explanation works either. Not everyone either ffollows a God/ignores them entirely. A good example is :roy:, he knows they exist but they have absolutely no impact on his life except to power his hairy friend's healing abilities.

Why should someone like that (who has never had any connection to a God) be forced to do as that God he has never followed says, just because he hit a certain level.

It would work in some cases, but in some it completely undermines the character.

They don't have to follow any god to any length. They don't have to believe in any god. The god just appears before them and makes a bargain with them (or offers them friendship) and they gain powers. It's like meeting a dragon one day who decides to give you some of his abilities via (whatever) because he agrees with you.

The god then says, "If we're going to continue being friends, these are the terms."

The VoP could probably break those terms and then negotiate with another god, but this is very difficult (not only mechanically) because other gods would find him untrustworthy (unless they are min/maxers that know how to exploit gods).

The VoP can negotiate the terms with the god via diplomacy. But most likely his character would agree with the terms. The god is assumed to have studied the character and in their wisdom feel that the character would probably agree with the terms, which are usually very close to (or mimic) the terms of their VoP already.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-15, 05:43 PM
They don't have to follow any god to any length. They don't have to believe in any god. The god just appears before them and makes a bargain with them (or offers them friendship) and they gain powers. It's like meeting a dragon one day who decides to give you some of his abilities via (whatever) because he agrees with you.

But why does it need to have a God at all?

Up until this there has been no mention of Gods etc. in the Feat, why all of a sudden does there have to be one appearing to give you this new power instead of it just developping like all the rest.

Vaynor
2010-06-15, 05:47 PM
I get the idea and it seems like it could be great fluff for a religious character, but there's absolutely no point in making it a requirement for the character to progress with the feat. So, a good option, but just that, optional.

imp_fireball
2010-06-15, 05:49 PM
But why does it need to have a God at all?

Up until this there has been no mention of Gods etc. in the Feat, why all of a sudden does there have to be one appearing to give you this new power instead of it just developping like all the rest.

Well I gave an explanation dependent upon setting. There's also the explanation for atheists.

The main thing though is that VoP is a way of life that involves some form of honor. Inevitably, it'd attract the attention of some deities (I don't think a chosen lifestyle actually grants anything unless you are to transcend to become deific yourself; at early levels they are assumed to spend more time improving their bodies because they haven't wasted it on spending frivolties. They are automatically bad asses because they can get through such a life style without ability score penalties.). That's just IMO though.

It may be a good idea to make it optional. Say that there are various ways in which epic VoP could be acquired but the main one would be gods (and then include other sample possibilities in exceptions).

This is generally WotC style for making something seem necessary but really allowing lee-way for other fluff.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-15, 05:58 PM
Well I gave an explanation dependent upon setting. There's also the explanation for atheists.

The main thing though is that VoP is a way of life that involves some form of honor. Inevitably, it'd attract the attention of some deities (I don't think a chosen lifestyle actually grants anything unless you are to transcend to become deific yourself; at early levels they are assumed to spend more time improving their bodies because they haven't wasted it on spending frivolties. They are automatically bad asses because they can get through such a life style without ability score penalties.). That's just IMO though.

Thing is though you could be C/E and just enjoy breaking magic items and chucking money at a rust monster to see poor people cry, and you could still gain this fixed Feat. It's not intrinsically about honour.

I still say Wish 1/day is a good ability for Level 29 (after all Wizards have had it available for 13 levels).

Vaynor
2010-06-15, 06:44 PM
I added the Wish ability, epic progression should be all good now, unless someone else has a good idea.

BLiZme.2
2010-06-15, 07:24 PM
As Wrote a spell book dose not radiate magic unless it is being used to prepare spells and then the reader detects as magic to just like a wizard with spells on the brain dose not count as radiating magic if there are no active spells.
Sorry everyone I was posting on three threads at once and forgot that I had not spell checked this post my bad.

Vaynor
2010-06-15, 08:41 PM
Gesundheit.

Roderick_BR
2010-06-16, 12:30 AM
I recommend changing that. :smallsigh:
Why? Any non-permanent effect is already allowed in the original. You can't buy yourself a +5 sword, but nothing keeps the wizard or cleric to cast Greater Magic Weapon on it.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-16, 04:15 AM
I added the Wish ability, epic progression should be all good now, unless someone else has a good idea.

Woo! I helped :smalltongue:

since I'm using this thing in an epic game ATM, this epic progression makes me happy.

Vaynor
2010-06-16, 04:52 AM
I'm using it in the same epic game. :smalltongue: Pending approval of the epic progression by the DM, that is.

Tome
2010-06-16, 05:10 AM
I like the Epic progression, but it still seems like it could use something more, particularly for the insane folks who take it beyond 30th level. When you consider all the craziness that Epic WBL allows... Maybe add in a progression for extra uses of the Wish SLA/Energy Immunity? Or better yet, add a slightly earlier access to Limited Wish which has a progression for extra uses. A Limited Wish SLA is a bit harder to break than a Wish SLA, whilst also allowing for most of the same effects.

Vaynor
2010-06-16, 05:17 AM
I was considering adding in access to a domain of their choice, but I didn't want to add too much.

If someone wants to take it beyond 30th level they can go ahead, things get mighty crazy at that point.

Tome
2010-06-16, 05:40 AM
Domain access seems a bit restrictive. He does need something to produce all the low-level effects that other characters are going to be squeezing out of wands, scrolls and other minor magic items without just relying on that Wish SLA though, which is where my Limited Wish suggestion comes in.

Maybe have it as a SLA with similar restrictions as the Wish one, available at 23rd Level and gaining an extra use per day every three levels?

Vaynor
2010-06-16, 05:50 AM
Well by domain access I mean that they would gain a 1/day SLA for all of the 9 spells in the domain, and gain maybe 2-3.

More restrictive than Wish, obviously (what isn't?), but it would allow them to select whatever domain they wanted and give them a nice boost, especially for non-casters.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-16, 07:18 AM
I like the domain idea. If you get one at 23rd, 26th & 29th then by the time you become a God you have the requisite 3 Domains needed to build a portfolio.

Tome
2010-06-16, 07:43 AM
Huh, that actually sounds really, really good. I like that.

Rock on. :smallbiggrin:

Vaynor
2010-06-16, 01:39 PM
Ok I've added the domains in. Any thoughts?

Duskranger
2010-06-16, 01:41 PM
Maybe that if you pick the same domain twice you get the SLA's for twice a day?

Or would that be impossible, to stack the same domain multiple times.

Where can I find the planar domains by the way?

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-16, 01:41 PM
Ok I've added the domains in. Any thoughts?

What's a Planar Domain?

Vaynor
2010-06-16, 01:53 PM
Planar domains are found in the Spell Compendium (pg. 282), they count as two domains (they grant 2 spells each level and have better domain abilities).

I've also added the ability to select a domain more than once to get more than one use of its SLA's but you don't get the domain ability twice.

Also, if you're a cleric the spells count as domain spells for the purposes of spells known and domain slots when preparing spells.

Ashiel
2010-06-17, 11:52 PM
I would suggest adding some sort of clause to the effect of turning into an outsider. As it is it can actually be seen as a nerf, because while they do gain some immunities to spells that target the humanoid type, the vulnerabilities they gain to new spells (such as magic circle) and suddenly no longer being able to be targeted by staple buffs such as enlarge person can hurt more than it helps.

Custos Sophiae
2010-06-18, 02:49 AM
Say that at level 20, they become a living bridge between the prime and the appropriate outer plane. That is, they count as both outsider and whatever their original type was, whichever is more beneficial.

Other possible additions:

Planar environmental endurance: Ability to ignore harmful planar environments, perhaps just on the inner planes. This extends the non-epic environmental endurance.

Alignment metamagic: Half the damage from their spells, and SLAs is alignment damagel. These spells and SLAs count as being of alignment type.

Alignment exemplar. They are widely respected for their devotion to their alignment. They get a bonus equal to one-half their ECL for diplomacy checks with anyone of the same alignment, including outsiders, and to their leadership score, though they still need the relevant feats. Essentially, this means its easier for them to pick up lots of followers, and to negotiate with powerful beings nominally on their side, getting help from that ancient gold dragon or solar.

Ralasha
2010-06-18, 09:18 PM
This gives me an idea for a PrC that gives elemental characteristics, and eventually turns them into a native outsider, and simultaneously an Elemental.

Come to think of it, depending on the plane to which they belong that would open the Paragon templates for such characters.

Like the bloodline's out of UA, but instead of stopping at a semi-elemental state, or becoming a mere genasi, they would become a full blooded Elemental, outsider.

Already working on a Void Fist Monk, so that will have to wait.

BLiZme.2
2010-06-18, 11:19 PM
As to the outsider problem just make sure the type is Outsider {augmented type}
Where type it’s the creatures original type and rules as wrote allow all your old buffs (though the vulnerabilities are still a problem)

Shpadoinkle
2010-07-16, 06:42 PM
So I've been thinking about the "I'm sorry, little orphan girl, your brother had to die because I'm not allowed to have money for longer than X."

How about letting a VoP character have money, and spend it however he wants... as long as it benefits the downtrodden, impoverished, etc.?

A VoP character can use his share of treasure to build an orphanage or a hospital or a homeless shelter or a church or whatever, or he can donate it to an existing facility. Obviously he can't use such acts or organizations as fronts for glorifying himself.

Duskranger
2010-07-17, 02:11 AM
So I've been thinking about the "I'm sorry, little orphan girl, your brother had to die because I'm not allowed to have money for longer than X."

How about letting a VoP character have money, and spend it however he wants... as long as it benefits the downtrodden, impoverished, etc.?

A VoP character can use his share of treasure to build an orphanage or a hospital or a homeless shelter or a church or whatever, or he can donate it to an existing facility. Obviously he can't use such acts or organizations as fronts for glorifying himself.

He can have stuff with a worth of 100 GP. This also means he may have same GP as long as he does not spend it and most of his money goes to charity. If I was someone with the VoP (a good guy in this case) I would make some account and the money I make from adventuring goes into that charitable account. It will be owned by someone that owns the money, but also is inclined to spend it to help the hungry, homeless, and less fortunate.

Kobold-Bard
2010-07-17, 05:26 AM
So I've been thinking about the "I'm sorry, little orphan girl, your brother had to die because I'm not allowed to have money for longer than X."

How about letting a VoP character have money, and spend it however he wants... as long as it benefits the downtrodden, impoverished, etc.?

A VoP character can use his share of treasure to build an orphanage or a hospital or a homeless shelter or a church or whatever, or he can donate it to an existing facility. Obviously he can't use such acts or organizations as fronts for glorifying himself.

What about Evil VoP characters? Or neutrals who believe the everyone should look out for themselves (so they dont want items, and believe the poor shouldn't need handouts). Kinda screws them.

Duskranger
2010-07-17, 05:31 AM
What about Evil VoP characters? Or neutrals who believe the everyone should look out for themselves (so they dont want items, and believe the poor shouldn't need handouts). Kinda screws them.

Actually that's probably why the original VoP is created for Exalted/Good characters.

Evil characters can give their money to warlords so they can see nations burn and people suffer.

Neutral people could go either way. Or maybe they sacrifice their money and give it to a god.

Feralventas
2010-07-20, 11:29 AM
"Damage Reduction (Su): You gain damage reduction 5/magic at 10th level. At 15th level this increases to 5/magic and silver (if you are lawful), or 5/magic and cold iron (if you are chaotic), or 5/magic and adamantine (if you are neutral). At 20th level this increases to 10/epic and silver (if you are lawful), or 10/epic and cold iron (if you are chaotic), or 10/epic and adamantine (if you are neutral)."

Not sure if I understand this right, as it looks a little backwards.

A Fey creature usually has DR/Cold Iron, meaning that Cold Iron is their bane, and ignores DR.
A Lycanthrope usually has DR/Silver, meaning that Silver is their weakness, and ignores DR.

So why is it that the VoP fix here grants DR5/magic at 10th, but advancing with it grants an additional weakness rather than augmenting it or at least leaving it alone until it increases at 20th?

Looking at it, BOED's VoP grants DR5/magic, then DR5/Evil, then DR10/Evil.
If you're trying to mimic that effect for non-good characters, perhaps
DR5/magic, DR5/(Alignment based bane), and DR10/(Alignment based bane) instead.

Volthawk
2010-07-20, 11:42 AM
"Damage Reduction (Su): You gain damage reduction 5/magic at 10th level. At 15th level this increases to 5/magic and silver (if you are lawful), or 5/magic and cold iron (if you are chaotic), or 5/magic and adamantine (if you are neutral). At 20th level this increases to 10/epic and silver (if you are lawful), or 10/epic and cold iron (if you are chaotic), or 10/epic and adamantine (if you are neutral)."

Not sure if I understand this right, as it looks a little backwards.

A Fey creature usually has DR/Cold Iron, meaning that Cold Iron is their bane, and ignores DR.
A Lycanthrope usually has DR/Silver, meaning that Silver is their weakness, and ignores DR.

So why is it that the VoP fix here grants DR5/magic at 10th, but advancing with it grants an additional weakness rather than augmenting it or at least leaving it alone until it increases at 20th?

Looking at it, BOED's VoP grants DR5/magic, then DR5/Evil, then DR10/Evil.
If you're trying to mimic that effect for non-good characters, perhaps
DR5/magic, DR5/(Alignment based bane), and DR10/(Alignment based bane) instead.

I'm pretty sure DR x/cold iron and magic means you need a magic cold iron weapon to get through it, like the Lich's DR.


A few other creatures require combinations of different types of attacks to overcome their damage reduction. A weapon must be both types to overcome this damage reduction. A weapon that is only one type is still subject to damage reduction.

Drolyt
2010-07-20, 02:12 PM
"Damage Reduction (Su): You gain damage reduction 5/magic at 10th level. At 15th level this increases to 5/magic and silver (if you are lawful), or 5/magic and cold iron (if you are chaotic), or 5/magic and adamantine (if you are neutral). At 20th level this increases to 10/epic and silver (if you are lawful), or 10/epic and cold iron (if you are chaotic), or 10/epic and adamantine (if you are neutral)."

Not sure if I understand this right, as it looks a little backwards.

A Fey creature usually has DR/Cold Iron, meaning that Cold Iron is their bane, and ignores DR.
A Lycanthrope usually has DR/Silver, meaning that Silver is their weakness, and ignores DR.

So why is it that the VoP fix here grants DR5/magic at 10th, but advancing with it grants an additional weakness rather than augmenting it or at least leaving it alone until it increases at 20th?

Looking at it, BOED's VoP grants DR5/magic, then DR5/Evil, then DR10/Evil.
If you're trying to mimic that effect for non-good characters, perhaps
DR5/magic, DR5/(Alignment based bane), and DR10/(Alignment based bane) instead.

This has been asked before, and you really need to blame the confusing 3.5 ruleset (or perhaps the English language), not me. Magic AND Cold Iron/Silver/Adamantine means you need a weapon that is BOTH Magic and Cold Iron/Silver/Adamantine. Only a few monsters in 3.5 have that kind of damage reduction, but it sounds like you have been playing them wrong. If it said Magic OR Cold Iron/Silver/Adamantine it would work like you described. This was my biggest beef with Abominations from the Epic Level Handbook, it is so cool to have a monster whose DR can only be surpassed with a weapon forged with the blood of a deity, except it is "weapon forged with the blood of a deity OR a good aligned weapon". I ignore the second part in my campaigns.

Vaynor
2010-07-20, 06:06 PM
I'm pretty sure DR x/cold iron and magic means you need a magic cold iron weapon to get through it, like the Lich's DR.

Indeed, I find it easier to think of it as if the creature/ability had "DR x/a" and "DR x/b" instead of "DR x/a+b" (if that makes sense). The DR reduces damage by the given amount unless you use a specific kind of attack, and you must bypass each type of damage reduction granted by the DR. If you only needed one of the two then the ability would state "DR 10/magic or cold iron" not "DR 10/magic and cold iron".

IonDragon
2010-07-20, 09:02 PM
You should probably make the natural armor bonus 'Enhancement' type so it doesn't stack with barkskin, dragonskin and possible others.

Drolyt
2010-07-20, 10:22 PM
You should probably make the natural armor bonus 'Enhancement' type so it doesn't stack with barkskin, dragonskin and possible others.

Not sure how I missed that, thank you.

Ralasha
2010-07-22, 03:32 PM
If I was an adventuring hero, and I would hold on to the money for when I met individuals in need of help, rather than trusting someone that may, or may not be trust worthy. By buying my stuff, and then selling it to help others.

Drolyt
2010-07-22, 04:34 PM
If I was an adventuring hero, and I would hold on to the money for when I met individuals in need of help, rather than trusting someone that may, or may not be trust worthy. By buying my stuff, and then selling it to help others.

I'm not sure what you are saying, sorry.

Ralasha
2010-07-23, 05:46 PM
I'm saying that with the Vow of Poverty, you are allowed a specific amount of valuables, totaling what was it... 150 gold? Which means You could carry things totaling that in value, to be sold in order to help others, since the stuff you would be wearing/using would all be mundane, and more likely than not no more than 80 gold in value.

Rumel
2010-10-02, 05:01 PM
What about Summon natures ally I-IX as you go through higher levels at will? It would last untill you dismiss it or until you sleep and lose concentration.

Rumel
2010-10-02, 05:17 PM
Or maybe ignore material component at around level 21 but regular eschew materials at lvl 3 or 4

averagejoe
2010-10-02, 07:27 PM
The Mod They Call Me: Thread necromancy.