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View Full Version : Metamorphosis vs Polymorph



Lycanthromancer
2010-02-01, 10:56 AM
Metamorphosis is considerably better than polymorph. The former is self-only, but it lets you take forms more than one size-category away (polymorph is hindered by alter self's restrictions on size), it can be manifested on you even if you're not a living creature (and can turn you into another non-living creature), it lets you keep your racial qualities (unlike polymorph, which makes it a LOT more template-friendly, lets warforged keep their composite plating, and so on), and allows you to turn into objects with a hardness of 15 or less for 1 hour/lvl, as well.

Really, the only advantages of polymorph over metamorphosis are that it allows you to take ectoplasmic forms, and can be cast on people other than yourself. That's it.

Knowledge = Power = Energy = Matter = Mass
http://atimetodance.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/moreyouknow.jpg
Go metamorphosis!

Now, how do we take advantage of these abilities? What races and templates would get us nifty abilities that sync well with new forms?

My first suggestion is to be a warforged. You keep your special qualities from being a living construct (despite losing the living construct subtype), and you keep your composite plating as well. You'd look like a Beast Wars Transformer!

Eloel
2010-02-01, 11:01 AM
Polymorph really dries out after the Hydra shapes are done - there are no good 14th or 15th level shapes to take. I'm not sure on Metamorphosis.

Fluffles
2010-02-01, 11:09 AM
Metamorphosis does not let you be a Elemental, undead, outsider, or construct. They are all explicitly stated as being banned from use. It does not let you keep your racial quailities,
You keep all extraordinary special attacks and special qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any benefits of the racial traits of your normal form you keep nothing from templates either.
If you have a template, special abilities it provides are likewise not retained.

Polymorph lets you be any size (unless it's smaller than fine) also:
You canít cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form

Oslecamo
2010-02-01, 11:11 AM
Metamorphosis is considerably better than polymorph. The former is self-only, but it lets you take forms more than one size-category away (polymorph is hindered by alter self's restrictions on size), it can be manifested on you even if you're not a living creature (and can turn you into another non-living creature), it lets you keep your racial qualities (unlike polymorph, which makes it a LOT more template-friendly, lets warforged keep their composite plating, and so on), and allows you to turn into objects with a hardness of 15 or less for 1 hour/lvl, as well.


Eerr, with all due respect, the metamorphosis text says:

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and special qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any benefits of the racial traits of your normal form.

Metamorphosis strips you of your original non-class benefits, just like polymorph. Being able to be cast in yourself if you're not living is, well, rather limited unless you're an undead psion or somehow are playing an awakened construct. The only real advante is size, but then polymorph is much more party and minion friendly, wich makes a lot of diference. The less you read...

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-01, 11:17 AM
Metamorphosis does not let you be a Elemental, undead, outsider, or construct. They are all explicitly stated as being banned from use.Yes, but: "You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form, or any other type except construct, elemental, outsider, and undead."

The bolded part means you can take construct forms if you're a construct, elemental forms if you're an elemental, and so on.


It does not let you keep your racial quailities, you keep nothing from templates either.From metamorphosis: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm) "You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and special qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have, if any."


Polymorph lets you be any size (unless it's smaller than fine) also:Nope. It's restricted by the text on alter self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) ("You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size."), and has nothing to override it.

Some of it's debatable on what it means (since the text does contradict itself somewhat), but that doesn't mean we can't use it to nefarious ends, even so. :smallbiggrin:

[edit]
Eerr, with all due respect, the metamorphosis text says:

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and special qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any benefits of the racial traits of your normal form.

Metamorphosis strips you of your original non-class benefits, just like polymorph. Being able to be cast in yourself if you're not living is, well, rather limited unless you're an undead psion or somehow are playing an awakened construct. The only real advante is size, but then polymorph is much more party and minion friendly, wich makes a lot of diference. The less you read...See above.

sofawall
2010-02-01, 11:42 AM
So basically, metamorphosis says "You keep racial stuff if it fits, but lose racial stuff, and then lose all template stuff".

Well that isn't contradictory at all...:smallannoyed:

Optimystik
2010-02-01, 11:55 AM
I just love hiding in a warehouse and turning into a crate, myself.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-01, 12:18 PM
So basically, metamorphosis says "You keep racial stuff if it fits, but lose racial stuff, and then lose all template stuff".

Well that isn't contradictory at all...:smallannoyed:Well, it's basically, "you lose all racial traits excluding special qualities and Su, Ps, and Sp abilities."

...I think.


I just love hiding in a warehouse and turning into a crate, myself.Hey, it could be a free trip to Randomplace, USA. Hope you don't mind a potential trip to Abu Dhabi, though.

Oslecamo
2010-02-01, 01:17 PM
Well, it's basically, "you lose all racial traits excluding special qualities and Su, Ps, and Sp abilities."

...I think.

You do realize that by your cheesy reading, alter self allows you to keep special qualities as well, since it does't explicitly says that you lose them.

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and special qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any benefits of the racial traits of your normal form

"Any". Alone. Not "any other". And on the same line as special qualities. Can't be much more clear than that.

Ryuuk
2010-02-01, 01:28 PM
Actually metamorphisis seems pretty clear:

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form, or any other type except construct, elemental, outsider, and undead. The assumed form can have as many Hit Dice as your manifester level, to a maximum of 15.

You canít assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you assume an incorporeal, ectoplasmic, or gaseous form. You cannot take the form of any creature that has a template. Your type and subtype (if applicable) change to match the new form.

Upon changing, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal you further). If you are slain while under the effect of this power, you revert to your original form, though you remain dead. You gain the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retain your own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also gain all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form (such as constrict, improved grab, and poison) but do not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form (such as blindsense, fast healing, regeneration, and scent) or any supernatural, psionic, or spell-like abilities.

You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and special qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have, if any. You keep all extraordinary special attacks and special qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any benefits of the racial traits of your normal form. If you have a template, special abilities it provides are likewise not retained. If the assumed form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any manifesting ability you had in your original form.

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws or a bite), racial bonuses on skill checks, racial bonus feats, and any anatomical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You can freely designate the new formís minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that type. The new formís significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new formís species. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new formís race. If you use this power to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

When the change occurs, your equipment either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item in question) or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your normal form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and canít wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms (mouth, hands, or the like) at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its normal form.

You can also use this power to assume the form of an inanimate object. You gain the objectís hardness and retain your own hit points. You can take the shape of almost any simple object you can think of. If you attempt to take the form of a complex object, you must make an appropriate skill check.. If you fail the check, your manifestation of the power does not succeed. Likewise, you cannot take the form of a complex mechanical mechanism unless you have some sort of skill associated with the object. You cannot use this power to assume the form of a psionic item or a magic item, or any object with a hardness of 15 or higher. You also cannot take the form of a psionically animated mechanism or any object formed of ectoplasm.

As an inanimate object, you lose all mobility. You retain your normal senses and your ability to speak. You can manifest a power if you make a Concentration check (DC 20 + power level); however, doing so ends the duration of this power. If you take damage while in the form of an object, your actual body also takes damage (but the objectís hardness, if any, protects you).

So you lose any racial abilities that depend on your anatomy (mostly Ex abilities such as natural armor, natural weapons, movement modes, composite plating for warforged, stability for dwarves...) but can keep any magical abilities that you had before (spell liks, supernaturals, psi likes...). Essentially, all of those magical abilities are innate to you, not your body, which is why you still keep all class features.

Similarly, you would only gain abilities that you new form has that depend on their anatomy (winged flight/swim/burrow/land speeds, natural attacks, physical abilities, natural attacks and natural armor...)

lord_khaine
2010-02-01, 01:33 PM
I have been considering the use of Metamphosis with a warforget for quite a while, and are wondering if there are anything that stops me from using it to turn into a huge animated object in the shape of a red wagon, and then start running people over while playing the transformers theme song?

Bayar
2010-02-01, 01:35 PM
You do know that aberrations, elementals and constructs can use Polymorph to turn into other stuff of their own type (besides the normal options of polymorph), no ?

Plus, outsiders can abuse it to no end.

How is Metamorphosis different than Polymorph ?

Sliver
2010-02-01, 01:45 PM
I have been considering the use of Metamphosis with a warforget for quite a while, and are wondering if there are anything that stops me from using it to turn into a huge animated object in the shape of a red wagon, and then start running people over while playing the transformers theme song?

Aren't living constructs different from regular constructs?

sofawall
2010-02-01, 01:48 PM
Aren't living constructs different from regular constructs?

They are Construct (Living Construct), just like humans are Humanoid (Human). It's a subtype thing.

Fluffles
2010-02-01, 03:37 PM
{Scrubbed}

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-01, 03:50 PM
That overide Alter self enough for you?No. It actually doesn't do so whatsoever. Try reading for comprehension.

Also, you might want to edit your post before you get a warning.

[edit] Oh, and:


Since other people have already quoted how your wrong on just about every other point... Not necessarily. I've quoted parts that explicitly call out exceptions to the parts they're quoting. I'd say that mine are exceptions to their generalities, as they're specifically mentioned as being such.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-02, 01:50 PM
How is Metamorphosis different than Polymorph ?Mostly as noted in my first post.

Also, metamorphosis turns you into an object. Does that mean you can have spells cast on you that only affect objects? Like...say...shrink item and permanency? And can you get weapon and armor enhancements too? This has possibilities. *Rubs palms in fiendish glee.*

olentu
2010-02-02, 05:02 PM
Mostly as noted in my first post.

Also, metamorphosis turns you into an object. Does that mean you can have spells cast on you that only affect objects? Like...say...shrink item and permanency? And can you get weapon and armor enhancements too? This has possibilities. *Rubs palms in fiendish glee.*

One is only assuming the form of said object. So it would depend on whether the DM rules that the form of the thing is what the thing is probably to the exclusion of other factors (HP, ability scores, class levels, etc.) without a statement that one changes one into another rather then meerly taking said objects form.

Augmented Lurk
2010-02-02, 05:12 PM
Another advantage of metamorphosis is that, unlike polymorph, it allows you to gain more hit points if you change into something with a higher constitution.

Bayar
2010-02-02, 05:13 PM
Mostly as noted in my first post.

Also, metamorphosis turns you into an object. Does that mean you can have spells cast on you that only affect objects? Like...say...shrink item and permanency? And can you get weapon and armor enhancements too? This has possibilities. *Rubs palms in fiendish glee.*

And what do you gain by getting perma shrinked ?

Once the duration of the Metamorphosys ends, you are no longer affected by shrink item because you are no longer an item.

Ok, I admit that Metamorphosys looks better than Polymorph. That size limit handwave, turning into objects...


Another advantage of metamorphosis is that, unlike polymorph, it allows you to gain more hit points if you change into something with a higher constitution.

VAnilla Polymorph does that as well.

olentu
2010-02-02, 05:16 PM
I would say that something that comes later in the text that contradicts a former section would reasonably be an exception to the former. So taking this section



You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and special qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have, if any. You keep all extraordinary special attacks and special qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any benefits of the racial traits of your normal form. If you have a template, special abilities it provides are likewise not retained. If the assumed form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any manifesting ability you had in your original form.


The bold section coming after the italicized section would seem to provide such an exception.

Thiyr
2010-02-02, 05:28 PM
VAnilla Polymorph does that as well.

It actually dosen't. As per Alter Self,
Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. Once again, there is nothing in the polymorph description that overrides this.

Optimystik
2010-02-02, 05:43 PM
To be fair, "able to be cast on people other than yourself" is a pretty big plus in Polymorph's favor. Though psionic characters can get around this by simply manifesting it on themselves straight from the Egoist's brain. (Namely, Wilders, Erudites, other Psions, and Ardents.)

Bayar
2010-02-02, 05:54 PM
It actually dosen't. As per Alter Self, Once again, there is nothing in the polymorph description that overrides this.

You gain the new CON score with Polymorph, ergo your HP adjusts to match your new CON score.

Augmented Lurk
2010-02-02, 06:38 PM
The errata for polymorph clearly states that your hit points do not change even if your constitution does, and arguing about "vanilla" polymorph is rather pointless (I'm assuming "vanilla" means "ignoring errata").