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Draz74
2010-02-01, 04:02 PM
Introduction

I like the Injury System (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/injury.htm), in concept. It rejects the abstract nature of Hit Points in favor of something much more well-defined, and tries to lower in-game bookkeeping in the process. In practice, it's not so wonderful. Mainly, it's much too "swingy," too luck-based. Sometimes creatures die so fast that it feels too abrupt, while other times they roll lucky and keep fighting forever. And one spell of bad luck can make you lose your character very quickly.

I also like Vitality and Wound Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm). They likewise make it much easier to imagine concrete consequences of attacks, and they are not nearly so swingy. As I worked with variations on this system, though, I was frustrated by how difficult it is to kill even a simple commoner or rat with one hit. I was also bothered by the necessity of keeping track of Wound Points, even though in many battles they won't even come up.

So I've done my best to combine the two systems. My goal is to use something like the Injury System for serious wounds, but also to give creatures a pool of Vitality Points that act as a "security blanket": until they run out of Vitality Points, they're safe from the nasty consequences of one poor roll in the Injury System. Mostly.

Along the way, I've hopefully made the system very adaptable, so that it can cover grappling, bull rushes, spell attacks, and numerous other special effects just as well as it handles a simple swordfight. And hopefully all this with a minimum of slowing down combat with extra die rolls.

This system is intended to be used in conjunction with numerous other variant rules that make up my homebrew system. However, I've tried to write this up in a way that makes its essence and consequences clear to someone who doesn't know any of the other ways I'm changing D&D. Hopefully many of you will be willing to offer feedback. :smallsmile:

Draz74
2010-02-01, 04:04 PM
Character Attributes

The attacker's attack has:

an Accuracy DC rating
a Peril DC rating
a damage value, e.g. 1d6+4


The defender has:

a pool of Vitality Points, representing stamina and continued ability to defend oneself effectively.
an Armor Value
a Stability DC
a Defense Save
a Fortitude Save


These are determined using the following statistics (plus various special abilities):

Attack Accuracy is a function of the attacker's BAB and Constitution modifier (or Dexterity modifier, for ranged attacks)
Attack Peril is usually just equal to Accuracy -10. Some weapon types will give higher or lower Peril, though.
Attack Damage is mostly a function of the type of weapon used, and the attacker's Strength.
Vitality Points are equal to the defender's Constitution score, plus a quantity based on level and class.
Armor Value is based on the defender's Strength, size, and the armor they wear.
Stability DC is like the Pathfinder Combat Maneuver DC. It's based on the defender's size, and either their Strength or their Dexterity.
Defense Save is, like 3e saves, level-based. It is also modified by the defender's Dexterity. Note that all classes essentially have Poor save progression on their Defense Save, but that using a shield gives a bonus to Defense Saves, essentially turning them into Good save progression. (Note also that Poor saves in general are not as harsh in this system as they are in 3e.)
Fortitude Saves are pretty much like you're used to. Level-based, and Constitution-based.

Draz74
2010-02-01, 04:05 PM
Attacking Process


Attacker rolls a Damage Roll to see how dangerous his attack potentially is.
Determine whether attack is a Threat.
Defender makes a Defense Save against the attack. Determine whether attack is a Miss, a Hit, or a Critical.
Defender loses Vitality Points equal to the results of the Damage Roll.
Determine the Hazard level of the attack.
Apply consequences appropriate to the Hazard level of the attack.
If attack was a Threat, apply consequences for a Threat of the appropriate Hazard level.


Step 1: Pretty straightforward. I don't think it needs explaining.

Step 2: If the Damage Roll exceeds the defender's Armor Value, the attack is a Threat.

Note that damage bonuses will generally be smaller and rarer in my system than they are in 3e. Very low-level play of 3e might be a good comparison.

Step 3:
If the Defense Save matches or beats the attack's Accuracy DC, the attack is a Miss.

If the Defense Save fails to pass the Accuracy DC, the attack is a Hit.

If the Defense Save fails to pass the Peril DC, the attack is a Critical.

If the Defense Save is a Natural 1, change a Hit to a Critical or a Miss to a Hit.

If the Defense Save is a Natural 20, change a Hit to a Miss or a Critical to a Hit.

Step 4: Pretty straightforward. Note that, by default, you still lose VP if someone misses you with an attack – you're still worn down a bit by the effort of dodging or resisting their attack.

Step 5:
By default, a Miss is Hazard 1.

By default, a Hit is Hazard 2.

A Critical adds +1 to the attack's Hazard level, unless the attacker exchanges this benefit for another benefit.

If the defender has no Vitality Points remaining, the attack is Hazard +2.

If the attack is during a surprise round and the defender is surprised, the attack is Hazard +1.

Other special abilities may modify the Hazard level to a small extent. Magical Death Effects, for example, might give a Hazard bonus. The defender's Resistances or Damage Reduction could actually cause a Hazard penalty.

Step 6:
If the attack is at least Hazard 3, the defender is Wounded.

If the attack is at least Hazard 4, the defender is Dying. There may be a menu of alternate effects that the attacker can choose to cause instead of Dying (but these alternate choices will be weaker, generally speaking).

If the attack is at least Hazard 6, the defender is killed. There may be a menu of nasty alternate effects that the attacker can choose to cause instead of killing his target, such as limb loss.

Step 7:
If the attack is a Threat and is at least Hazard 2, the defender is Clobbered for one round. Special abilities or high Hazard levels may allow the attacker to add additional effects to this one, or exchange it for additional effects.

Draz74
2010-02-01, 04:09 PM
Condition Definitions

Wounded: A Wounded character takes a -2 penalty on Defense Saves. (This penalty is not cumulative if a character has multiple Wounds.)

Dying: A Dying character must make a Fortitude Save to avoid going unconscious when any of the following circumstances occurs:

He first becomes Dying.
He is hit by another attack (at least Hazard 2) while Dying.
He performs a strenuous action, such as making an attack or casting a spell.
A Dying character may voluntarily fail a Fortitude Save to avoid going unconscious.

Clobbered: A Clobbered character does not get a Move Action on his turn. (He may still move by exchanging his Standard Action for a Move Action, of course.)

Dead: Well … eventually I'm sure I'll have to write up a definition of the game rules for this, but for now, I'm sure you can all figure it out pretty well.

List of Alternate Effects for high Hazard levels or Threats
To be added later.

A Few Ways Special Abilities Can Modify This System

Dodge feat: defender takes no Vitality damage on a Miss. (Or half damage? Feedback welcome.)

Toughness feat: defender gains bonus Vitality points, and does not suffer a Speed penalty while Wounded.

Diehard feat: When Dying, a character with this feat may perform strenuous actions without risking falling unconscious. A character with this feat may also use his Will save instead of his Fortitude save to avoid going unconscious, if he wishes.

Power Attack feat: one of the main effects of Power Attacking might be the ability to turn a Threat into a Hazard +1 effect, instead of Clobbering one's target.

More to be added later.

Concerns

(1) My main concern right now is that killing someone is just too darn easy. Right now, anyone who's out of VP will die instantly if they roll a 1 on a Defense Save against any attack, and I'm not sure I want that level of lethality. Driven unconscious and dying, sure. All the way dead, not so much.

But that means I need to put in another Hazard level between Wounded and Dead, and I don't know what to put into that Hazard level. Dying and automatically Unconscious, in between Dying and Dead, perhaps? Suggestions welcome.

(Helpless foes may automatically fail their Defense Saves, and therefore will generally get Crit'd by any attack. Thus, coup de grace rules should be built into this system naturally. Of course those can take a target all the way to Dead pretty easily.)

(2) Currently, getting Wounded when you're already Wounded does nothing. I'm wondering if it should.

(3) I've gotta figure out some way to include nonlethal attacks. They should have the potential to knock a target out without the target getting all the way to being Dying, but there's got to also be a downside that keeps you from declaring all of your attacks Nonlethal all the time.

Draz74
2010-02-01, 04:12 PM
Examples of Combat Using This System

An actual playtest battle I just ran:


Two level 2 characters are facing an ogre (a level 3 monster). The heroes are Sir Galathon, a knight-in-shining-armor type aspiring to become a paladin; and Fenrik, a swashbuckler type.

Sir Galathon has the following relevant stats:
22 Vitality Points
Armor Value 9 (with half-plate armor)
Defense Save +3 (with a shield)
Fortitude Save +5
Melee Attack: Bastard Sword accuracy 14, peril 4, damage 1d10+4

Fenrik has the following:
18 Vitality Points
Armor Value 4
Defense Save +5
Fortitude Save +3
Melee Attack: Rapier accuracy 14, peril 4, damage 1d6+3
Dodge feat

The Ogre has the following:
37 Vitality Points
Armor Value 8
Defense Save +0 (it's not exactly nimble, and being a big target doesn't help)
Fortitude Save +6
Melee Attack: Greatclub accuracy 15, peril 5, damage 1d6+6
Power Attack feat

Round 1

The ogre wins initiative and immediately moves to Fenrik and takes a swing at him. He rolls 7 damage, which is a Threat because it is greater than Fenrik's armor value. In fact, Fenrik is light enough on defense that every attack from the powerful ogre will be a Threat to him.

Fenrik rolls a 7 on his Defense Save (a natural 2 on the d20). This is less than the ogre's attack's Accuracy DC, so the attack is a Hit. Fenrik loses 7 VP (the result of the ogre's earlier damage roll), and he is Clobbered for one turn because of the ogre's Threat.

Fenrik's turn is next. This turn, he cannot move next to the ogre (which hit him using its Reach) and still get an attack, because he is Clobbered. He decides to risk moving around the ogre so that he can at least grant a flank to his ally. The ogre makes an opportunity attack. Damage roll result is 8, and again Fenrik rolls terribly on his Defense Save and is Hit by the attack. Fenrik is down to 3 Vitality, and he will again be Clobbered on his next turn.

Now it's Galathon's turn. He moves into a flanking position with impunity (since the ogre already used its opportunity attack) and makes an attack: damage roll 5, which is not enough to be a Threat against the tough ogre. The ogre dodges the attack nicely (Defense Save 16), but it is still worn down by having to dodge (32 VP remaining).

Round 2

The ogre decides to test the defenses of this new foe, and Power Attacks Galathon, using up its move action to add +1d6 damage to its attack (damage roll result: 9). This is barely not a Threat to the heavily armored knight (it needs to exceed his Armor Value). Galathon only rolls a 13 on his Defense Save, so he's Hit by the attack, but all that really matters is that it wasn't a Critical. Galathon has 13 Vitality remaining. The ogre would like to move away from Fenrik so that Fenrik can't attack him (because of being Clobbered), but he already used his move action this turn.

Fenrik is excited to have an offensive opportunity, but the dice again treat him poorly: damage roll only 4. Definitely not a Threat. With the -2 penalty for being flanked, the ogre's Defense Save is 13, which means Fenrik gets a Hit and scratches him, though the result is only different from a Miss in terms of fluff. (If his weapon was poisoned, of course it would be a different story.) The ogre has 28 VP remaining.

Galathon strikes again: 10 damage, which is good enough for a Threat! The ogre must roll Defense; it gets an 11, which is not good enough to dodge the attack. The ogre will be Clobbered on its turn, and it has 18 Vitality remaining. Good show, Galathon! Galathon chooses not to use his move action, hoping that he will be a more tempting target to the ogre than Fenrik.

Round 3

The ogre is tired of being flanked, though, and uses its standard action to swing at Fenrik: 10 damage. At last the dice are being kind to Fenrik, though: he rolls 25 Defense (a natural 20!) and the attack is most definitely a Miss. Fortunately, his Dodge feat means that he doesn't suffer any effects from the attack! And the Clobbered ogre must now end its turn, still flanked.

Fenrik jabs a riposte. Another 4 damage. The ogre must roll at least a 6 to avoid taking a Critical, and it does; the attack is again merely a scratch, but the ogre is being worn down (14 VP). Fenrik is torn between staying in place to provide flanking, and moving away (drawing an opportunity attack) in hopes of not facing another blow from that club. He decides to stay put.

Galathon takes another stab with his bastard sword: 9 damage, which is (barely) another Threat! The ogre rolls Defense 5, narrowly avoiding a Critical but again becoming Clobbered by the paladin's blow. The ogre still hasn't taken any serious wounds, but it's down to 5 VP due to being tired and covered in flesh wounds.

Round 4

The ogre strikes back at Galathon: damage 8, no threat. A fumbled Damage Save could still end the heroic knight's blaze of glory, but this time he rolls a 10 and, again, is merely Hit (fluffwise, he probably blocks the blow nicely with his shield, but is still bruised slightly by the force of the blow). 5 VP remain for him, too.

Fenrik finally rolls for maximum damage: 9, which is a Threat! The ogre gets a 10 on his save, so the attack is merely a Hit—but trying to avoid being killed by that blow wore the ogre out (he has no more VP remaining), so Fenrik's Hit is resolved as Hazard 3 rather than Hazard 1. The Ogre is Wounded and Dying, and will also be Clobbered on its turn. It passes the Fortitude save to stay on its feet, however.

Galathon moves to finish the brute off: damage 6. Since the ogre is out of VP, damage rolls only matter in order to determine whether an attack is a Threat, which this is not. The ogre manages to scrape a 5 on its Defense Save, even with penalties for being flanked and Wounded, so it avoids taking a Critical. The only consequence of the attack is that the ogre must again save vs. falling unconscious, which it succeeds at.

Round 5

It's the poor ogre's turn. Normally, attacking would cause it to save vs. falling unconscious yet again—a fact that might motivate more sane creatures to surrender—but this ogre has the Diehard ability. It knows it's probably in trouble, but it wants to take these humans down with it, so it takes another swing at that accursed swashbuckler. Damage 11 … but Fenrik saves for 20, and is again saved by his Dodge feat.

And the rapier comes in with a counter. 8 Damage; not quite a Threat; but luck is not with the ogre's Defense Save this time, and with penalties, its result of 0 easily leads to a Critical. The attack's Hazard level is 4 (2 for being a Critical, and 2 because the ogre is out of VP; fluff-wise, it's a nice jab right through the heart), and the stubborn ogre keels over.

Draz74
2010-02-01, 05:19 PM
Reserved for contingencies.

Cataphract
2010-02-02, 10:43 AM
I skimmed over it, plan to read it soon.

The problem is, while I'm a sucker for complex rules and additional variables, in practice it shows that in the end, they just bog you down without requiring

So, a nice variant would be to simply take this sentence:


My goal is to use something like the Injury System for serious wounds, but also to give creatures a pool of Vitality Points that act as a "security blanket": until they run out of Vitality Points, they're safe from the nasty consequences of one poor roll in the Injury System.

...to heart.

HP = Vitality points. Same thing as always. Once they're over, you roll for injury like this variant:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/injury.htm

And all you need is a transition step- the leftover damage (i.e. you have 10 HP and receive 15 damage, leftover is 5) forces an immediate injury roll as if you were hit for that kind of damage (in the aforementioned example, 5).

Simple, no?

Pronounceable
2010-02-02, 02:01 PM
Basically it's an opposed check that inflicts conditions if attack exceeds defence by a certain amount. I approve, and incidentally, the basics of my own system is this. However,

complex rules and additional variables, in practice it shows that in the end, they just bog you down

You'll probably want to simplify it. The trick with homebrewing (in addition to having a ruleset that suits you) is to make it accessible to others. And mostly accessible=simple.


HP = Vitality points. Same thing as always. Once they're over, you roll for injury like this variant:
I believe a conditions track and a HP/VP pool can't be combined in an elegant enough way that doesn't require too extensive for a game math, but this might work. I'd stick with conditions track myself, swingy and all.
...
But don't let a couple of net posters stop you. Unleash your creation upon a hapless bunch of gamers, and see how it goes.

Draz74
2010-02-02, 02:09 PM
Thanks for the response.


Simple, no?

Yes, it sounds like an easy way to get a good start. And I'd consider trying out exactly what you're proposing, if I DM a game of 3.5e where I'm deliberately trying not to make too many changes in the game and confuse people.

But in practice, I'm sure there would be a lot of things that need to be tweaked to make your proposal work well. For example, Injury save DCs would likely have to go up quite a bit, to represent that people who have already run out of Vitality are really in trouble (even if they don't roll especially poorly on their saves). And how healing would interact with the dual system, and ... yeah.

Plus, my full set of rules aims to do much more. Like make armor and shields have separate purposes, and tie spellcasting attacks into the combat system much more naturally.

So I'm still eager to get an opinion from you when you've had a chance to read over my rules carefully!


I skimmed over it, plan to read it soon.

The problem is, while I'm a sucker for complex rules and additional variables, in practice it shows that in the end, they just bog you down

That's one thing I need more opinions on: are my rules more complex than in other games? Do they actually involve more variables? Because if so, I've failed.

Of course it looks more complicated than 3.5e rules at first blush, because everything seems complicated by comparison to what you're already familiar with. And also because I'm trying to write out my rules in painstaking clarity, even when that made them longer.

But I think for every variable or condition I mentioned in my ruleset, I could name a corresponding variable or condition in the 3.5e attack/damage rules. (For example, the "Peril DC" is really just like a weapon's critical threat range in 3.5e.) And if the system I've outlined removes the need for the rules to include crit confirmation rolls, or massive damage rules, or other auxiliary ends of the 3.5e system ...

But yeah. I need to just get off my butt and write up some good examples of how the system works in play. Until that, I don't expect to convince anyone that my wall o' text really isn't very complicated. :smallsmile:

Cataphract
2010-02-02, 02:12 PM
You'll probably want to simplify it. The trick with homebrewing (in addition to having a ruleset that suits you) is to make it accessible to others. And mostly accessible=simple.

So true, so true. I do get the urge to keep on piling rule after rule continually, but in the end you spend five times as much trying to streamline it, and you end up winging it, thus you have lost time for no reason at all.



I believe a conditions track and a HP/VP pool can't be combined in an elegant enough way that doesn't require too extensive for a game math, but this might work. I'd stick with conditions track myself, swingy and all.
...

Here's what I was thinking, in a slightly more coherent form:

HP is as normal. Keep track, heal, crits multiply damage etc.
Once you hit 0, then you're not staggered or dead or what have you, but now you really start getting hit. Then the injury system kicks in.

Simple? The problem is if it keeps players alive longer than intended, though, since after 0 you're not dead, but I see little problem in that.


But don't let a couple of net posters stop you. Unleash your creation upon a hapless bunch of gamers, and see how it goes.

Yet again I must agree. Guinea pigs- err, players for playtesting are great assets.

//ninja'ed! I'll read them more carefully and post my considerations :D

Draz74
2010-02-03, 03:17 PM
First example posted; nothing very exciting happened this battle that would really demonstrate the benefits of my system, but that's probably actually good for a first example, since it is how many battles will go in actual play. At least I think the VP-Injury system made the end of the battle a little more dramatic than it would have been under the standard Hit Points system. (And the real benefit is, it was much easier than the standard Hit Points system to know what fluff to attach to each attack in the battle.)

Pronounceable
2010-02-03, 05:27 PM
That's one thing I need more opinions on: are my rules more complex than in other games? Do they actually involve more variables? Because if so, I've failed.
They're too math heavy for my taste. However, DnD (along with pretty much everything else) is too math and dice heavy for my tastes too. The perception of complexity is quite subjective as well.
...
It's indeed easier to fluffify every action by the numbers, but why even try? Dramatization is always in the hands of DMs and players. If this was a simple HP battle, you could've just as easily described HP going down as cuts and bruises till the last few where actual wounds are being inflicted. If it was a pure condition track battle, fluffification would be mostly same with "VP loss" being purely fluffy. Reducing abstraction like this serves no real benefit, there's no need to "know what fluff to attach to each attack" imnsho. Then again, it's probably one of those pesky subjectivity thingies.
...
Those aside, system itself looks fairly solid but math heavy. Mainly because no attack simply misses with no effect, which means a whole lot of bookkeeping every round. I'd recommend running a 5v5 battle and see how smooth that goes. My kidney tells me that'll be a long and bumpy ride (then again, the time and effort this takes might be equivalent to a RAW DnD battle for all I know).
...
What all that obsession with subjectivity means: This seems like an interesting ruleset which I wouldn't be enthusiastic about. Like any other ruleset I've encountered. Which means squat in the grand scheme of things. Unleash it upon more people.

Draz74
2010-02-03, 05:49 PM
Those aside, system itself looks fairly solid but math heavy. Mainly because no attack simply misses with no effect, which means a whole lot of bookkeeping every round.
Well, the only effect of many attacks is to reduce VP. But yes, I guess you've got a fair point here.


I'd recommend running a 5v5 battle and see how smooth that goes. My kidney tells me that'll be a long and bumpy ride (then again, the time and effort this takes might be equivalent to a RAW DnD battle for all I know).
Thanks for the recommendation, I'll take your advice and make my next playtest a big battle. Any requests about what kinds of creatures should participate in said battle? :smallwink:


What all that obsession with subjectivity means: This seems like an interesting ruleset which I wouldn't be enthusiastic about. Like any other ruleset I've encountered. Which means squat in the grand scheme of things. Unleash it upon more people.

Right. While I very much appreciate the constructive criticism you've given me, I've read enough of your posts in the past to recognize that any system I'll be creating is probably not going to be a system that matches your tastes. So your lack of enthusiasm isn't going to make me condemn the project.

Cataphract
2010-02-03, 07:44 PM
Ok, here's my thoughts:

1)Totally counterintuitive. Essentially, the attacker auto-hits, and then the defender tries to avoid the attack. There's no consideration of the attacker being a failure/klutz etc.

2)In your system, Dodge turns from slightly useful to uber useful, especially with a shield.

3)How did the ogre eat up its move action for 1d6?

Truth be told, I don't think it meshes well with D&D rules, since you change a lot of basic premises. Once you start to branch out in non-core material, it'll show.

Also, due to it being a totally different system that has its own logic, I can't attest as to how realistic or not it is.

I'm just baffled. I eagerly await to see what else you've changed along the way, because as it is, this is unplayable as a simple variant. If you continue though, you'll need to change pretty much everything.

Pronounceable
2010-02-03, 08:49 PM
Truth be told, I don't think it meshes well with D&D rules, since you change a lot of basic premises. Once you start to branch out in non-core material, it'll show.
...
I'm just baffled. I eagerly await to see what else you've changed along the way, because as it is, this is unplayable as a simple variant. If you continue though, you'll need to change pretty much everything.
Well he IS making a whole new system. It seemed counterintuitive to me at first too, what with determing how hard a hit is before seeing if it actually hits, but it makes a surprising amount of sense.

Vitality points aren't vitality points at all here, they're hit points. They're more clearly hit points than DnD's own (which are quite schizophreniac and may represent physically being wounded or getting tired at any moment). Whenever something attacks something else, the something else has to actively try to stop getting hit. Trying to not get hit wears him/her/it down a bit, which means a drop in hit points. Get beat up enough and you don't have strength left to defend properly and start taking actual wounds. It all makes sense. It's just too bookkeepy.

As an aside, you really should call them HP.

As another aside, yes, that Dodge seems quite buff.

For yet another aside, try an adventurers vs orcs. With archers and magic and whatnot, using whatever variants you made. If your variants aren't usable, use standard DnD to fill in the blanks. See how hard or complex it gets. And then if you have much free time, run same battle vanilla DnD. Compare the results.

Draz74
2010-02-04, 03:02 PM
OK, last night I ran 5 adventurers (knight, sorceress, swashbuckler, barbarian, thug) vs. 7 monsters (ogre, gargoyle, elite orc, mongrelman, and three goblins). And to make sure I was getting the experience cnsvnc was recommending, I made sure to roll dice and track everyone's VP and conditions by hand, rather than using easily-programmed MapTool scripts like I would normally do.

It did take quite a while, but I guess that's to be expected when twelve critters fight. I don't think the bookkeeping was any more laborious than it would be in a standard 3.5e fight of the same size, though. The little bit of extra work that was required in marking off VP damage on a miss was made up for by, for example, the lack of critical confirmation rolls.

The battle also did get monotonous, but then, I was mostly ignoring and avoiding the special abilities that the combatants would normally have.

Of course playtesting almost always reveals some things that need to be tweaked, and this was no exception. (Criticals are a little too rare; late in the battle, going straight from healthy to Dying was too common; the sorceress's magic was much too weak; and the way I was allowing combatants to take a Second Wind was a bit too useful.)

By the way, the ogre and the gargoyle were the only combatants left standing at the end. Only the barbarian was beyond the skills of a decent healer, though.


1)Totally counterintuitive. Essentially, the attacker auto-hits, and then the defender tries to avoid the attack.
Here's the reasoning behind that:

Most spells already had "an auto-hit, then the defender tries to avoid the attack." I didn't see any reason why spells should be different from mundane attacks in this way, and wanted to streamline by making both attack styles work the same way.

I could have gone the 4e route and made the attacker always be the one who rolled, but I went in the other direction because, in my experience, there's more tension and suspense built into the game when you're rolling dice to try to save your own skin.


There's no consideration of the attacker being a failure/klutz etc.
That's mostly true. Swinging weapons around is a dangerous activity, and I kind of started with a baseline assumption that most combatants would have a certain minimal level of coordination that will keep them from completely "whiffing" if their intended target doesn't even bother to dodge.

Poorly executed attacks are supposed to be simulated by rolling crappy amounts of damage on your Damage Roll. That way, even if you hit your opponent, woohoo, you did a couple VP damage and nothing else.

I've considered adding in special abilities that add in more "fumble" possibilities, like a talent for lucky/comedy themed characters that makes their assailants drop their weapons if they roll a 20 on their Defense Save. But if this is an issue, I could also try to just build something more into the system. Like no VP damage if a Defense Save is a natural 20.


2)In your system, Dodge turns from slightly useful to uber useful, especially with a shield.
Is this a criticism or a compliment? Because I'm pretty sure most people want Dodge and shields both to be more useful than they are in 3.5e. :smallwink:

Last night's big-battle test used the version where Dodge prevented half damage, rather than all damage, on a Miss, and it still felt like a reasonably useful feat. So I'm leaning towards that version, for now.


3)How did the ogre eat up its move action for 1d6?
Power Attack. I'm still playing around with its exact effects, and whether it eats up a Move Action or a Swift Action. But yeah, it eats up actions rather than giving an attack penalty.


Truth be told, I don't think it meshes well with D&D rules, since you change a lot of basic premises. Once you start to branch out in non-core material, it'll show.

I'm just baffled. I eagerly await to see what else you've changed along the way, because as it is, this is unplayable as a simple variant. If you continue though, you'll need to change pretty much everything.

I am. :smallcool:

Hopefully soon, I'll have my system's rules written up in an organized-enough form, and with at least a little bit of playtesting, that I can start posting large amounts of them here on this Forum. In the meantime, if you want to see more, PM me.

But I appreciate the effort cnsvnc has made to analyze these rules (probably the most complicated part of my ruleset) without making assumptions about how they'll conflict with other things. Feedback like that is very helpful!


Well he IS making a whole new system. It seemed counterintuitive to me at first too, what with determing how hard dangerous a hit is before seeing if it actually hits, but it makes a surprising amount of sense.
A slight correction ...


Vitality points aren't vitality points at all here, they're hit points. They're more clearly hit points than DnD's own (which are quite schizophreniac and may represent physically being wounded or getting tired at any moment). Whenever something attacks something else, the something else has to actively try to stop getting hit. Trying to not get hit wears him/her/it down a bit, which means a drop in hit points. Get beat up enough and you don't have strength left to defend properly and start taking actual wounds. It all makes sense. It's just too bookkeepy.

As an aside, you really should call them HP.
Huh. Really? Because the way you can still take damage on a Miss (i.e., because you dodged the attack, but the effort made you a little more tired) makes me feel like they're very much Vitality rather than Hit Points. "Hit" Points are supposed to be more like the Clobbered/Wounded/Dying condition track.

Removing D&D's "schizophrenia" was definitely one of the main goals of this system, but apparently I succeeded in completely the wrong direction?

Oh, and what could I do to make this less bookkeepy?


For yet another aside, try an adventurers vs orcs. With archers and magic and whatnot, using whatever variants you made. If your variants aren't usable, use standard DnD to fill in the blanks. See how hard or complex it gets. And then if you have much free time, run same battle vanilla DnD. Compare the results.

Yeah, for now I'm just trying to playtest the attack/damage system, not so much the other rules. One of my friends will be playtesting the whole ruleset with his group soon.

Cataphract
2010-02-04, 03:29 PM
Here's the reasoning behind that:

Most spells already had "an auto-hit, then the defender tries to avoid the attack." I didn't see any reason why spells should be different from mundane attacks in this way, and wanted to streamline by making both attack styles work the same way.

That makes some sense, though I was never a fun of auto-hitting spells. They feel the same like pushing a button.


I could have gone the 4e route and made the attacker always be the one who rolled, but I went in the other direction because, in my experience, there's more tension and suspense built into the game when you're rolling dice to try to save your own skin.

True that, true that, though I always preferred contested rolls even if it doubles the amount.



That's mostly true. Swinging weapons around is a dangerous activity, and I kind of started with a baseline assumption that most combatants would have a certain minimal level of coordination that will keep them from completely "whiffing" if their intended target doesn't even bother to dodge.

Poorly executed attacks are supposed to be simulated by rolling crappy amounts of damage on your Damage Roll. That way, even if you hit your opponent, woohoo, you did a couple VP damage and nothing else.

While I agree with the basic assumptions, I don't know how good that model is. VP is always kind of dodgy in its




Is this a criticism or a compliment? Because I'm pretty sure most people want Dodge and shields both to be more useful than they are in 3.5e. :smallwink:

More like a fact, really. The problem is, they're too good (though the Dodge fix mitigates that fact). But now a shield a)becomes indispensable, b)if you allow ANY kind of shield bonus to factor in there, there's going to be plenty of animated shields (yuk) and shield spells.


But I appreciate the effort cnsvnc has made to analyze these rules (probably the most complicated part of my ruleset) without making assumptions about how they'll conflict with other things. Feedback like that is very helpful!

If you want to say I'm not helping very much with my comments, feel free to do so. It won't hurt my feelings :smalltongue:

Draz74
2010-02-04, 04:39 PM
That makes some sense, though I was never a fun of auto-hitting spells. They feel the same like pushing a button.
[snip]
True that, true that, though I always preferred contested rolls even if it doubles the amount.
Gotcha. I feel like we're more on the same page now.


While I agree with the basic assumptions, I don't know how good that model is. VP is always kind of dodgy in its
I'm curious what the rest of this comment was going to be ...


More like a fact, really. The problem is, they're too good (though the Dodge fix mitigates that fact). But now a shield a)becomes indispensable, b)if you allow ANY kind of shield bonus to factor in there, there's going to be plenty of animated shields (yuk) and shield spells.
OK, good feedback. I guess I'll keep Dodge nerfed even though "half damage" mechanics aren't my favorite.

As for shields, rest assured that even when I'm trying to DM 3.5e with minimal changes, one of the ones I insist on is nerfing or banning Animated Shields. :smallyuk: But if casters want to spend one of their spells known, one of their Magic Points, and especially one of their Standard Actions on a shield spell, I think I'm inclined to let them.


If you want to say I'm not helping very much with my comments, feel free to do so. It won't hurt my feelings :smalltongue:
Well, the "you'll have to change everything" comment felt a little unhelpful, since I'd already mentioned that this was supposed to be part of a larger work. But the rest of your comments have been helpful, and I apologize for making an indirect jab at you over that one.

Pronounceable
2010-02-04, 04:55 PM
You know, I could swear vitality is a lot more evocative of health and fitness than an ability to survive. Checking a dictionary proved me wrong.


I made sure to roll dice and track everyone's VP and conditions by hand, rather than using easily-programmed MapTool scripts like I would normally do.
You're using hardware? Damn whippersnappers, why back in my day we used to carve our charsheets on clay tablets with bones of beasts we killed...
The idea of using anything more than pen and paper is too alien and the mind rejects the possibility. Specifically mine. But if you'll be tool assisted gamerunning by default, a big bunch of bookkeepery and time wastage disappears. And it becomes a lot more appealing. But
The battle also did get monotonous, but then, I was mostly ignoring and avoiding the special abilities that the combatants would normally have. doesn't sound good. However, rulesets don't actually have to work fully.

My ruleset allows no advancement. You'll play whatever you started with till the bitter end. Which is usually a few hours away. I almost exclusively run one shots as any group of people I'm likely to gather for a game won't be making it for a second gathering in any forseeable future. So me even trying to patch up my rules to allow advancement will be a waste of effort and time.

Sooo, if your DMing style doesn't include big battles and concentrates on small engagements and/or duels like the example (and you use hardware to reduce bookkeepery), it's mostly fine right now. Remember that these rules are first and foremost to suit you. If there's something your style especially focuses or ignores, accomodate for it.

Draz74
2010-02-06, 01:04 AM
You're using hardware? Damn whippersnappers, why back in my day we used to carve our charsheets on clay tablets with bones of beasts we killed...
Hehehehe.


The idea of using anything more than pen and paper is too alien and the mind rejects the possibility. Specifically mine.
Hey, you should try it! MapTool seems like it would be great for your ultra-anti-bookkeeping tastes. It's completely system-neutral, so it would be easy to program a very "light" system into its scripts. I'm thinking of trying out Risus for the first time, and using MapTool to do it. :smallsmile:


But if you'll be tool assisted gamerunning by default, a big bunch of bookkeepery and time wastage disappears. And it becomes a lot more appealing. But doesn't sound good. However, rulesets don't actually have to work fully.
Well, I do plan to usually game with hardware, but I want my system to also run without it. And to be less complex than 3.5e D&D while doing so (I know 3.5e is kind of a low standard as far as a system's elegant simplicity goes, but there you have it).

But I think I'm achieving that. And MapTool will only make things still faster.


My ruleset allows no advancement. You'll play whatever you started with till the bitter end. Which is usually a few hours away.
Yes, high-casualty one-shots would naturally make a lot of rules unnecessary ...


Sooo, if your DMing style doesn't include big battles and concentrates on small engagements and/or duels like the example (and you use hardware to reduce bookkeepery), it's mostly fine right now. Remember that these rules are first and foremost to suit you. If there's something your style especially focuses or ignores, accomodate for it.

OK, thanks. What I need now is help making little tweaks to this system to make it still better.

For example, my tests revealed that critters go from "healthy" to "dying" more often than I would like, without ever being just Wounded in between. So my friend and I are thinking, what if being out of VP only caused +1 Hazard? But then we need some other source of Hazard, so that you don't need a Critical to get your target down to Dying. Any suggestions?

Pronounceable
2010-02-06, 12:40 PM
For example, my tests revealed that critters go from "healthy" to "dying" more often than I would like, without ever being just Wounded in between.

Nothing goes to dying from healthy:
Ever
Unless damage roll was max
or something else
...
Mayhaps something completely different? Tho I don't have a buffer HP pool, I compare attack roll with defense stat and each 5 points of excess is one step further on condition track. You could maybe adopt some sort of fort check vs damage, details of which elude me currently, instead of hazard.

Project Icarus
2010-02-06, 02:27 PM
Was about to try a little playtesting for this, but I ran into a little problem:
How exactly is accuracy calculated? Is it (10+BAB+Con/Dex)? That seems about right to me, but I'm not entirely sure. Clarification would be much appreciated.

Draz74
2010-02-06, 04:19 PM
Btw, what's the verdict on "natural 20 Defense = half/no VP damage"? Are people other than Cataphract in favor of it?


Nothing goes to dying from healthy:
Ever
I wish I could make it that simple, but my inner simulationist won't let me. :smallfrown:


Unless damage roll was max
or something else
...
Mayhaps something completely different?
Yeah, we're still playing around with it. I'm in favor of Threats adding +1 Hazard (instead of Clobbering) when the target is out of VP, but my friend thinks that's too harsh.


Tho I don't have a buffer HP pool, I compare attack roll with defense stat and each 5 points of excess is one step further on condition track. You could maybe adopt some sort of fort check vs damage, details of which elude me currently, instead of hazard.
I'm trying not to depend too much on automation hardware; and therefore I'm trying to keep most attacks from requiring more than two die rolls.

I'm surprised that you, of all people, use an "each five points of success" mechanic -- and without hardware to help out. In my experience, "each five points of success/failure" mechanics slow down gameplay a lot.


Was about to try a little playtesting for this, but I ran into a little problem:
How exactly is accuracy calculated? Is it (10+BAB+Con/Dex)? That seems about right to me, but I'm not entirely sure. Clarification would be much appreciated.

Yep, you've got it. Let me know how it goes! :smallsmile:

Project Icarus
2010-02-07, 05:31 PM
Alright, here's a quick playtest using the same format as Draz's previous one:

Two adventurers - Nogah Hrodland, a dwarf mercenary, and Urzune Amaseru, a powerful spellcaster - are wandering through the wilderness and suddenly find themselves facing a minotaur and an owlbear.

Nogah Hrodland
Barbarian 1/ Fighter 4
58 Vitality Points
Armor Value 11/13 when raging (breastplate +6, ring of protection +1, Str +4)
Defense Save +5/+3 when raging (Base Save +1, cloak of resistance +1, Dex +3) - I had to do some ruling of my own here, so I decided the -2 AC when raging translated to a -2 to the Defense Save, based on that the -2 represents carelessness rather than an actual reduction in armor.
Fortitude Save +10/+12 when raging
Melee Attack: +1 Glaive accuracy 19/21 when raging, peril 9/11, damage 1d10+9/+12
Ranged Attack: Throwing Axe accuracy 18/20, peril 8/10, damage 1d6+4/+6

Urzune Amaseru
Wizard 5
31 Vitality Points
Armor Value 0 (ring of protection +1, Str -1)
Defense Save +5 (Base Save +1, Dex +4)
Fortitude Save +7
Spell: fireball accuracy 18, peril 8, damage 5d6
Spell: magic missile accuracy 16, peril 6, damage up to 3d4+3
Spells were interesting to try and figure out. The accuracy is the save DC for the spell (10+primary casting stat mod+spell level), which I thought made the most sense. Fireball also still allows a save for half damage - before calculating threat. Magic missile no longer auto-hits, but it is automatically a threat to the target.

Minotaur
39 Vitality Points
Armor Value 8
Defense Save +2
Fortitude Save +6
Melee Attack: greataxe accuracy 17/14, peril 7/4, damage 2d8+4
Melee Attack: charging gore accuracy 17, peril 7, damage 4d6+6

Owlbear
47 Vitality Points
Armor Value 9
Defense Save +2
Fortitude Save +8
Melee Attack: 2 claws accuracy 16, peril 6, damage 1d6+5
Melee Attack: bite accuracy 11, peril 1, 1d8+2

Round 1

Urzune is first in the initiative order, and immediately drops a fireball on both monsters. He rolls 16 for damage. The owlbear and minotaur both fail the Reflex Save, which means the attack is a Threat to both of them. They both also roll poorly on their Defense Save (11 and 10), so the attack is a Hit. They lose 16 VP and both monsters are Clobbered for one turn.

Nogah is up next, and he quickly throws an axe at the owlbear, hoping to draw it to him. He rolls max on the damage roll, which is a total of 10, making the attack a Threat to the owlbear. The owlbear rolls a 9 on its Defense Save - which is another Hit - and loses 10 VP. However, it has already been hit and Clobbered this turn, so there are no other effects. Nogah finishes up his turn by drawing his glaive.

The minotaur wastes no time in charging Urzune. However, it incurs and attack of opportunity from Nogah. The dwarf rolls a 12 on the damage roll. This is low, but still a Threat. In fact, Nogah's glaive would threaten either monster even at minimum damage. The minotaur rolls an 18 on its Defense Save, which just barely fails the accuracy DC. The attack is a Hit, and the minotaur loses 12 VP, bringing it down to only 11.

The minotaur continues its partial charge and rolls 21 damage, which is definitely a Threat, with Urzune's Armor Value of 0. Urzune rolls a natural 1 on his Defense Save, so the attack is a Crit and Urzune loses 21 VP. The Hazard 2 attack Wounds and Clobbers Urzune, leaving him with less than a third of his total VP.

The owlbear falls for Nogah's taunt and performs a partial charge at him with its claws. It rolls a natural 1 on the d6 for its first attack, for a minimum of 8 damage, which is not a Threat. Nogah rolls a 15 on his Save, which is a Hit, but all that matters is that it wasn't a Crit. He loses 8 VP. Its second attack is for 13 damage, which is a Threat to Nogah. Fortunately he rolls a 23 on his Save, making the attack an easy Miss, but he still loses 13 VP.

Round 2

Overshadowed by the minotaur, Urzune defensively casts a magic missile at it. He easily makes the concentration DC of 16 with a total roll of 27. Urzune rolls high on his damage roll as well, for a total of 14, which is a Threat (though it would have been a Threat even if the damage hadn't exceeded the Armor Value, by virtue of it being a magic missile). The minotaur rolls a 13 on its Defense Save, so the attack is a regular Hit. However, because it has no more Vitality Points, the attack is Hazard 3. The minotaur goes from standing strong to Dying in one blow. Failing the initial Fortitude Save on a bad roll, the minotaur falls unconscious.

Nogah uses his Rage and attacks the owlbear with his glaive this time. He rolls a 15 for damage, which is low, but still definitely a Threat. The owlbear then rolls a 15 on its Defense Save, making the attack a Hit and Clobbering the owlbear once again. It loses 15 VP, leaving it with only 6 left. Interestingly, while raging, Nogah's attacks can only Miss if the owlbear rolls a 19 or 20, but they Crit if it rolls an 8 or below.

The owlbear attacks Nogah again. However, because it was Clobbered last turn, it can't use its full attack. It will have to use only its claws for its attack. The first attack is 11 damage, which is not a Threat. Nogah easily makes the Defense save and the attack is a Miss. He loses 11 VP. The owlbear rolls a 10 on its second attack. This time the attack is a Hit, but has no other effect other than the loss of 10 VP.

Round 3

Urzune decides to cast another magic missile - this time at the owlbear. He gets unlucky on his damage roll - only 8 damage - but the magic missile is a Threat nonetheless. The owlbear rolls a 13 on its Save, so the attack is a Hit. With its VP depleted, the attack is a Hazard 3, which drops the owlbear to Dying, and Wounded on top of that. However, it makes the Fortitude DC and stays on its feet.

Nogah sees the owlbear falter and goes in for the killing blow. He rolls a 15 on his glaive damage roll, which is low, but the owlbear has no more VP, so all that matters is that the attack beats the owlbear's Armor Value, which it does automatically by virtue of its damage bonuses. With its bonuses to its Defense Save brought down to nothing by the Wounded condition, the owlbear rolls a straight 5 on its Save, which is a Crit. The powerful Hazard 4 attacks slays the owlbear outright.

I have to say, I really like this system. It takes some getting used to, but the rewards are well worth it. It makes every attack matter because they all deplete VP whether they miss or not, instead of a player spending their turn attacking, only to have their only attack miss (which just isn't fun). I have been looking for a good system that does this for a while, and I'm overjoyed to have finally found it.

I only have a few worries about balance. However, I've run a few battles already, and I haven't run into anything incredibly unbalancing.

Also, a few Questions regarding the system I ran into during my playtesting:

1. If a creature is rendered Dying from an attack, is it also considered Wounded? I assumed so in my playtest, but correct me if I'm wrong. It just seems like it would make sense.

2. What, exactly, are the Fortitude DCs for the various circumstances listed under the Dying definition? I just estimated during play, but solid number values would be nice.

3. If a creature is at 0 VP and an attack Threatens them, but Misses, are they still Wounded from the attack?

Also, if I may suggest it, Wounds past the first one should impose another -1 penalty to Defense Saves. As it is now, they don't have any effect.

Like I said at the beginning, I find this system very attractive. It just needs to be worked in with all of the existing 3.5 rules. I'm a little concerned about how spells will factor into this, but I had no trouble with them when I ran this combat, so I'm very optimistic.

Cataphract
2010-02-08, 04:56 AM
It's a totally different approach, but it does work. However, I still find it a little counterintuitive for my tastes, and since I can't quite put a finger on it, I don't think I can provide any decent help, so I'll have to bow out of this.

Best of luck! :smallbiggrin:

Draz74
2010-02-08, 04:10 PM
Alright, here's a quick playtest using the same format as Draz's previous one:
[snip]
I have to say, I really like this system. It takes some getting used to, but the rewards are well worth it. It makes every attack matter because they all deplete VP whether they miss or not, instead of a player spending their turn attacking, only to have their only attack miss (which just isn't fun). I have been looking for a good system that does this for a while, and I'm overjoyed to have finally found it.

Awesome. I'm honestly quite surprised, pleasantly, by how well this worked out for you, even used as "a simple variant" rather than combining it with dozens of other changes to the rules. :smallsmile:

What do you think about the Natural 20 Defense issue?


I only have a few worries about balance. However, I've run a few battles already, and I haven't run into anything incredibly unbalancing.
Haha, and I have a lot of concerns about balance. :smallsmile: But I hope they won't be too hard to fix as they are discovered.


Also, a few Questions regarding the system I ran into during my playtesting:

1. If a creature is rendered Dying from an attack, is it also considered Wounded? I assumed so in my playtest, but correct me if I'm wrong. It just seems like it would make sense.
Yes, a Dying creature is also Wounded. Thanks for pointing out that I hadn't made that explicit like I meant to.


2. What, exactly, are the Fortitude DCs for the various circumstances listed under the Dying definition? I just estimated during play, but solid number values would be nice.
I've been using DC 15, but I could easily be persuaded to adjust it. Also, that standard could become problematic at high-level play, especially if a character has Steadfast Determination. (Since my full ruleset is E8, I haven't been worrying about high-level play.)


3. If a creature is at 0 VP and an attack Threatens them, but Misses, are they still Wounded from the attack?
Yes, the way the rules are currently written, a Miss in such a case would still Wound and Clobber the target. Being out of VP sucks.

Again, if you think this should be changed, let me know and I'll consider it. Though it was kind of my intent that any attack would at least Wound you after you are out of VP.


Also, if I may suggest it, Wounds past the first one should impose another -1 penalty to Defense Saves. As it is now, they don't have any effect.
Yes, I would like to add an additional effect to the system when a Wounded creature gets Wounded again. However, I would like it to be something that doesn't require keeping track of how many times the creature has been Wounded (which your suggestion would). That way smells of too much bookkeeping to me. About the only thought I've had is to Daze the target in such an instance ... (4e-style Daze, less harsh than 3e Daze).


I'm a little concerned about how spells will factor into this, but I had no trouble with them when I ran this combat, so I'm very optimistic.
Yes, I think at high levels especially, spell damage will need to be re-worked or it will become entirely too lethal. Honestly I'm planning on doing away with spell damage scaling proportionally to the character's level. But I'm pleased if it still seems to work in your tests.

Spell accuracy = spell Save DC is exactly what I had intended.

I think still allowing a save for half damage from a Fireball is a clever "quick fix," though I think it's unfortunate to add another die roll to the spell resolution process.

By the way, as far as your interpretation of Magic Missile goes: I think what fits the spell's fluff best is for it to say, "This spell is always a Hit, never a Miss or a Critical. There is no need for its target to roll a Defense Save." That would be instead of the auto-Threat clause you came up with. I don't know how that would work out balance-wise, but it makes the most sense to me.

A few other things I'd recommend you try out:


Ring of Protection should affect Defense Save, not Armor Value.
Amulet of Natural Armor, on the other hand, should affect Armor Value.
And Cloak of Resistance shouldn't affect either one; it should still be just Fort/Ref/Will.
I've been giving all creatures +2 Armor by default. But I'm also nerfing the bonuses of normal armor. Your barbarian's breastplate would have probably given a +4 armor bonus rather than +6, in my book.
Brutish critters with low Defense might need to have their Strength boosted a bit (including the bonus to Armor implied therein).

Draz74
2010-04-02, 02:32 AM
I ran another playtest of this a couple days ago, with a friend who's been helping me brainstorm various ideas for CRE8.

He asked for a pretty stereotypical party, Level 2. Together, we came up with an Elf Archer-Rogue, a Dwarf Warrior-Cleric, a Hobgoblin TWF-Fighter, and a Human Wizard with a fondness for Magic Missile. All using CRE8 rules, though we had to make some stuff up here and there where the CRE8 rules are still incomplete (or are only in my head :smallbiggrin:)

The party turned a corner in a dungeon and found a goblin and a worg there. While they fought them, an ogre and another goblin came at them from the back.


Round 1

The dwarf, Father Murik, won initiative and moved to a defensive position in the front of the party.

The wizard, Gregg, shot the visible goblin with a Magic Missile, but it did insignificant damage to him (3 Vitality only).

The Worg moved out of the side corridor it was in and got prepared to start fighting.

The fighter, Grumgin, also took a place on the front line. (I can't remember why it was so hard to move and attack at the beginning of the battle, here. Must have been something to do with the dungeon terrain.)

The rogue, Kikkena, shot at the goblin, but the goblin managed to dodge (7 Vitality damage).

The goblin's knife thrust at Grumgin was easily parried (2 Vitality).

Round 2

Father Murik swung his axe at the goblin, but it was an elusive little thing, and not yet worn out. It managed to dodge the swing (6 Vitality).

Greg hit the dodging goblin with another Magic Missile, and it grunted and tottered under the blow (7 Vitality and Clobbered).

The Worg latched its jaws onto Father Murik's armored leg, trying to topple him to the ground with a swift action after successfully hitting. However, he found out that dwarves are pretty heavy and sure-footed. (4 Vitality, failed Trip attempt.)

Grumgin stabbed the weary goblin through the gut, and he collapsed, bleeding and unconscious. (6 Vitality damage exhausted him, and he failed to Defend himself especially well; and also failed to stay on his feet via Fortitude once he was badly wounded.)

And using his two-weapon fighting ability, Grumgin also made a skilled attack against the Worg with his sword. The Worg had good luck with the dice and dodged well, though it wasn't easy. (8 Vitality; saved well enough on defense to avoid being Clobbered.) Father Murik swung a similarly strong attack at the beast, which was presumably still latched onto his leg; but with similar results (9 Vitality).

But the worg couldn't keep dodging perfectly forever, and Gregg hit it squarely with a magic missile. (6 Vitality, exhausted, Wounded, and Clobbered. Still fighting, though.)

The worg switched targets, leaping with its teeth aimed at Grumgin's leg, but the skilled fighter nicely dodged and parried (7 Vitality). And counterattacked (7 Vitality and Clobbered).

Kikkena had somehow gotten skipped in initiative order, but she made up for it now with an excellent shot through the worg's throat (Natural 1 on the defense save). Already exhausted, the worg collapsed, nigh unto death. Kikkena likely should have switched targets to the ogre that had started coming up behind her, though.

Round 3

Father Murik moved to the back of the party, hoping to protect the fragile wizard from the new threat, and cast a Stoneskin-type ward on his human ally.

So the ogre swung at Father Murik instead. With a well-placed blow (good damage roll, just barely enough to get through Murik's Vitality) and another Natural 1 on the defense save, Father Murik went from "fairly healthy-looking" to dying in one blow. Crunch goes the skull. (12 Vitality, Clobbered, exhausted, Wounded, Disabled, and Unconscious.) My player remarked that he forgot how CRE8 didn't support ClericZilla; especially at this low level, the cleric was noticeably more fragile than the fighter.

Gregg fired away with extra "juice" pumped into his magic missile (he knew other spells, but didn't seem too fond of them) to add a bit of extra damage. The ogre was fresh and didn't mind much, though ("miss", 7 Vitality damage).

Grumgin moved against the ogre without hesitation -- or caution. The ogre caught him in the leg with a moderately solid opportunity attack, Clobbering him long enough to prevent him attacking this turn. (10 Vitality and Clobbered.)

Kikkena shot the ogre. It dodged before the arrow hit a vital spot (no critical), but the longbow did its work and pierced the ogre's armor, dealing a painful if not dangerous piercing wound, perhaps to its shoulder. (9 Vitality and Clobbered.)

Round 4

The ogre swore vengeance against this elf, and used its turn to shift its position to be able to hit the elf rather than attacking. (It couldn't move and attack, being Clobbered. Its movement also gave the second goblin, creeping up behind it, room to join the fray.)

The goblin lunged through the opening at Grumgin with its knife, and managed to hit him, though not pierce his chainmail. (3 Vitality)

Gregg fired another extra-power magic missile, and the blow took a lot of the fight out of the tired ogre. (6 Vitality, exhausted, Wounded, Disabled, but managed to stay on its feet.)

Grumgin seized the opening with a sword, but tired and clumsy as the ogre was, it hadn't completely given up, and the damage done by the fighter's sword slash made little difference compared to the nasty wounds the ogre already had. (Defense save succeeded, and further Vitality damage or Wounded conditions were meaningless.)

It flubbed the next defense save, though, and took an arrow straight to the chest from Kikkena. With its innate warlike stubbornness, it still refused to keel over and die with an arrow sticking out of its vitals. (Even with a critical hit while exhausted, the ogre didn't die, due to a slight change we made to the rules to make them less lethal. I might change this back, though.)

Round 5

Crying out with a berserker-like rage, the ogre (used its Toughness feat to take a Second Wind action and) recovered somewhat ... but that used up its turn.

The goblin jabbed at Grumgin again, who had refused to shift his attention from the ogre to the newer, smaller threat. After several attacks, including one good blow from the ogre, Grumgin was quite tired; and though he made a pretty good effort of parrying the goblin's thrust, he slipped a bit and took a significant gash. (4 Vitality, exhausted and Wounded.)

Gregg was nearly out of magical energy, but his specialty with magic missiles let him continue to fire them off, with no particular enhancements. So he hit the ogre again, to little effect (3 Vitality).

Grumgin hit the ogre again, drawing blood from a minor scratch as the ogre defended itself with some reasonable vigor again -- but was rapidly losing its second wind. (7 Vitality)

Kikkena left yet another arrow sticking out of her favorite target, albeit only in the leg this time. (6 Vitality, exhausted, Ogre managed to stay on its feet again.)

Round 6

The bleeding, near-dying ogre rallied its strength for one last mighty blow, though it knew the exertion might be too much for it; it wanted that elf dead. With a Power Attack, it swung its cudgel down -- but the elf was the freshest of all the combatants still, and sidestepped the blow. Not that it was easy to dodge, but she managed. (11 Vitality.) The ogre collapsed.

The goblin drew blood again from the tired Grumgin, but not a serious enough wound to make a difference compared to what he already had.

Gregg hit the dying ogre with another missile, but magic missiles aren't the best for coup de grace, and the ogre still breathed (with tortured, heaving breaths).

Grumgin stabbed at the goblin -- it wasn't a great thrust, but the goblin had no armor and wasn't exactly tough, so it gasped under the scratch anyway. (3 Vitality, Clobbered.)

Kikkena hit the elusive goblin with an arrow, piercing it in the arm and drawing significant blood. (5 Vitality, Wounded.) I think the rogue gets the MVP award for the whole fight.

We called the fight off due to running out of time at this point, though the end result seemed pretty obvious.


I'm sure we'll want to tweak some things in the rules after more playtesting, but we were reasonably happy with the way the combat system flowed.