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magic9mushroom
2010-02-02, 08:19 AM
Disclaimer: The only tricks in here I came up with myself were using Clarity of True Madness to get out of Tainted Scholar and using Contemplative to qualify for Dweomerkeeper, and I don't assert being first on those, just that I came up with them independently. However, I didn't see the tricks thrown together into a full build anywhere, so decided to make one.

1: Monk
2: Human Paragon
3: Beholder Mage
4: Human Paragon (Beholder Mage)
5: Human Paragon (Beholder Mage)
6: Tainted Scholar (Beholder Mage)
7: Tainted Scholar (Beholder Mage)
8: Ur-Priest
9: Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Beholder Mage)
10: Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Beholder Mage)
11: Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Beholder Mage)
12: Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Beholder Mage)
13: Ur-Priest
14: Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Beholder Mage)
15: Contemplative (Ur-Priest)
16: Dweomerkeeper (Ur-Priest)
17: Dweomerkeeper (Ur-Priest)
18: Dweomerkeeper (Beholder Mage)
19: Dweomerkeeper (Beholder Mage)
20: Dweomerkeeper (Beholder Mage)

Feats of note: Assume Supernatural Ability x2 obtained through taint at level 2 (if ruled to be required to take Beholder Mage levels), Iron Will and Spell Focus obtained before level 8, Alternative Source Spell obtained through taint at level 8, one metamagic feat and one item creation feat obtained before level 15, Martial Study x2 as soon as possible to get Iron Heart Surge.

Abilities of note: 17 Int, then Wis, then Cha in pointbuy. Human Paragon 3rd and all level-based ability score increases add to Con or Wis.

Original race: Human.
Alignment: Lawful Evil.

Events of note: During 2nd level, she'll amass enough wealth for a Polymorph Any Object into a Beholder, and due to her 17+ Int it will be permanent (getting an Enlarge Person from a random apprentice wizard first). She takes Clarity of True Madness as her 2nd level Tainted Scholar secret, and uses it every time she subsequently gains a level on the Will save for the Tainted Scholar's Level Advancement feature. At some time prior to attaining 15th level, she Greater Planar Binds or Gates in a Pit Fiend and has a chat. She takes Magic as the bonus domain from Contemplative.

Capabilities of note: 9th level arcane spellcasting from 12th level onward, 9th level divine spellcasting from 16th level onward, tainted spellcasting applying to both from 6th level giving large amounts of spells per day and save DCs (not quantified because taint symptoms can affect ability scores), Beholder Mage's casting mechanic of one spell of each spell level as a free action each round, rebuke undead, supernatural spell 1/day from 19th level (once she gets this, she can dispel the PaO and recast it as a supernatural ability, preventing it from ever being dispelled), Iron Heart Surge (to smash Antimagic Fields unBeholderifying her).

Sources required:

Core (Monk, Mystic Theurge, Polymorph Any Object, Beholder)
Unearthed Arcana (Human Paragon)
Lords of Madness (Beholder Mage)
Heroes of Horror (Tainted Scholar)
Complete Divine (Ur-Priest, Contemplative, Dweomerkeeper)
Savage Species (Assume Supernatural Ability)
Dragon #325 (Alternative Source Spell)
Tome of Battle (Martial Study, Iron Heart Surge)



Anticipated Questions and Comments:

Q) Monk???

A) Firstly, it has a good Fort save, which is essential to getting into Ur-Priest. Secondly, it gives Wis to AC, which is nice given Beholder-shaped armour is rare and expensive. Thirdly, it's lulzy to have a supremely overpowered character like this start as a Monk.

Q) Human Paragon shouldn't work as a Beholder.

A) In Unearthed Arcana it states that paragon classes don't go away if you change race (you just can't become a paragon of your new race, and we're not trying to), and it doesn't say you can't gain more levels in them afterward. The first level of Human Paragon is gotten prior to becoming a Beholder. That said, you can substitute the first level of Human Paragon with any other class with Bluff as a class skill and the other two with straight Beholder Mage and it'll still work, just with smaller Hit Dice, one less feat, less skills and no +2 to an attribute.

Q) Why take Tainted Scholar before Ur-Priest rather than later?

A) Tainted Spellcasting is obscenely powerful, hence it makes the character more powerful through the midlevels. There's also MAD going on if you don't pick up Tainted Scholar before starting on Ur-Priest.

Q) Why not use Favored/Primary Contact to enter Tainted Scholar early?

A) Two reasons. First, that would make entry to Ur-Priest conditional on the use of fractional base save bonuses. Secondly, it's kinda preposterous for a frickin' BEHOLDER to remain part of a mages' guild, and I wanted the build to be reasonable.

Q) Why 2 levels of Tainted Scholar? You only need one.

A) Technically true, but Clarity of True Madness means you don't need a natural 20 on each of your Will saves to avoid taking another level in Tainted Scholar, and like I said above, I didn't want something that unlikely.

Q) You can't qualify for Mystic Theurge with 1 level of Ur-Priest.

A) Alternative Source Spell lets her cast any arcane spell as a divine spell and vice versa. She can cast up to 5th level arcane spells at this point.

Q) Contemplative as an Ur-Priest? WTF?

A) Nothing in there says you have to worship a god or be a cleric, and a Pit Fiend should certainly count as an "enlightened being embodying the highest principles of an alignment". It's fair game.

Q) Ur-Priests don't have domains, so you can't get into Dweomerkeeper.

A) Contemplative gives you an extra domain, and Complete Divine spells out that nonclerics still get them.

Q) My DM won't let me play this! Help!

A) Sorry, no help there :smallbiggrin:.

Optimystik
2010-02-02, 08:32 AM
I believe you'll need two castings of PAO: One to become an Elan, and the second to become a Beholder Mage.

Human to Beholder Mage directly has only a factor of +5 (Animal to Animal); it does not meet the other factors' criteria - it therefore won't be permanent, unless I'm missing something.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-02, 08:34 AM
PaO is not sufficient for entry to beholder mage.

Or rather, it is, but to gain spellcasting, you need to give up the use of an eyestalk for each level.

PaO does not grant Su or Ex abilities, as per the inherited restrictions from polymorph, so, to get in beholder mage, you need a way of granting nine ex abilities. This is most certainly not available at level four.

Eloel
2010-02-02, 08:36 AM
Meh, too easy to beat for my 'overpowered' tastes. Dispel Magic. Good Game.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-02, 08:48 AM
I believe you'll need two castings of PAO: One to become an Elan, and the second to become a Beholder Mage.

Human to Beholder Mage directly has only a factor of +5 (Animal to Animal); it does not meet the other factors' criteria - it therefore won't be permanent, unless I'm missing something.

I believe I put in there that you get an Enlarge Person first (hence "Same Size +2"), and Int 17 gives "Same or lower Intelligence +2" since a Beholder has 17 Int.


PaO is not sufficient for entry to beholder mage.

Or rather, it is, but to gain spellcasting, you need to give up the use of an eyestalk for each level.

PaO does not grant Su or Ex abilities, as per the inherited restrictions from polymorph, so, to get in beholder mage, you need a way of granting nine ex abilities. This is most certainly not available at level four.

I put in there that Wis is your next priority after Int 17, and Assume Supernatural Ability only requires Wis 13 and "ability to assume a new form magically". The Eye Rays are all one (Su) ability.


Meh, too easy to beat for my 'overpowered' tastes. Dispel Magic. Good Game.

That's why the Supernatural Spell at the end (if you wanted to be sneaky, you could say a Dweomerkeeper cast the original using Supernatural Spell, and even costing double you could still do it by level 3). You can't dispel a (Su), or even disjunction them. Only AMF will shut them down, and Iron Heart Surge can break that.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-02, 09:10 AM
I put in there that Wis is your next priority after Int 17, and Assume Supernatural Ability only requires Wis 13 and "ability to assume a new form magically". The Eye Rays are all one (Su) ability.

Su, my bad.

The eye rays all being one Su ability requires a very specific reading. I believe they are each an Su ability, they are merely listed together for convenience, as they are all Su abilities, and they share attributes. They are, however, seperate abilities and are used seperately for the purposes of beholder mage. This is solvable, yes, but it requires a heavy feat investment.

Also, consider the impact that a targetting dispel will have on your class...ie erasing it for good. This is a rather severe problem, that doesn't become fixed until 19. You can also be disqualified from the prestige class in other ways, such as someone PaOing you.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-02, 09:20 AM
Su, my bad.

The eye rays all being one Su ability requires a very specific reading. I believe they are each an Su ability, they are merely listed together for convenience, as they are all Su abilities, and they share attributes. They are, however, seperate abilities and are used seperately for the purposes of beholder mage. This is solvable, yes, but it requires a heavy feat investment.

The listing says Eye Rays (Su). They are connected very closely (can't aim more than 3 into a 90 degree arc and all that). Hence it's normal to assume it's one ability with a lot of parts. It's also questionable whether you actually need the eye rays for Beholder Mage casting in the first place, or whether you can use the nonfunctional eyestalks you already possess due to PaO.

So I'd say it should be fine.


Also, consider the impact that a targetting dispel will have on your class...ie erasing it for good. This is a rather severe problem, that doesn't become fixed until 19. You can also be disqualified from the prestige class in other ways, such as someone PaOing you.

This is a problem, yes. As I said earlier, you could get a Dweomerkeeper to perform the original PaO. Or you could invest in some Rings of Counterspells (and later, Greater Counterspells) (remember, you can wear more rings than usual as a Beholder). Or you could grab Leadership and get a Truenamer cohort (yes, Truenamer) with Spell Rebirth.

If someone else is PaOing you, you have problems no matter what, since PaOing someone into a pebble will stop them casting anyway. This character can deal with it better than most due to her Iron Heart Surge.



EDIT:

Oh, and incidentally, I just came up with an even more ridiculous one at level 20, though it's less powerful along the way and doesn't get as many extra goodies.

1: Ardent
2: Ardent
3: Beholder Mage
4: Ardent
5: Cerebremancer
6: Tainted Scholar
7: Tainted Scholar
8: Cerebremancer
9: Cerebremancer
10: Cerebremancer
11: Ur-Priest
12: Mystic Theurge
13: Mystic Theurge
14: Psychic Theurge
15: Psychic Theurge
16: Psychic Theurge
17: Psychic Theurge
18: Psychic Theurge
19: Psychic Theurge
20: Subverted Psion

At level 20, you're casting as a 9th level Beholder Mage (for 9th level Sor/Wiz spells), a 9th level Ur-Priest (for 9th level Cleric spells), and manifesting as a 14th level Ardent (with Practiced Manifester, this allows 9th level powers even without being an illumian). Furthermore, you have Tainted Spellcasting, Tainted Power, and Taint Immunity, meaning that you Pwn (TM).

You need either Versatile Spellcaster to early-entry Cerebremancer or Favored/Primary Contact to early-entry Tainted Scholar. You also need Alternative Source Spell to early-entry Mystic Theurge, as well as the prereq feats for Ur-Priest, Subverted Psion and possibly Beholder Mage.

masterjoda99
2010-02-02, 05:19 PM
An idea for the original version in the first post: perhaps move the contemplative and dweomerkeeper levels up sooner, ultimately delaying the highest level spells, yes, but making it about 4 levels sooner that you can use supernatural spell on PaO, which if you have to worry about dispelling before then, is still quite good, methinks.

Another thing, a highly debatable thing, but still worth mentioning, is swapping a dweomerkeeper level (since supernatural spell is at 4th level, not 5th) for a level of Prestige Paladin, as Paladin of Tyranny, or Ur-Priest adaptation, and taking Sword of the Arcane order to get wizard spells on the Ur side as well as beholder mage side. I disclaim, however, that this is rather cheesy, and also debatable about whether it works, but just a thought.

Draz74
2010-02-02, 05:36 PM
This thread needs more Illithid Savant. :smallwink:

Wings of Peace
2010-02-02, 07:38 PM
This is a problem, yes.


I'm AFB so I'll check on this when I get home since this is completely off of mental memory. But as I recall Ur-Priest only requires that you not be of a divine spell casting class that worships a deity. In the crunch I do not recall a rule that says you cannot still -worship- a deity (That part is in the flavor as I recall). Combo that with the rule in Dragon Magic that says if two classes share the same spell list (I forget the page number) then they are interchangeable for prequisites and you could qualify for Initiate of Mystra assuming it has no alignment or other pre-reqs I'm forgetting. My logic here being Cleric and Ur-Priest share the same spell list. Check my work or wait for me to get home to check on that theory though. But if it works then you can just AMF yourself to defend against all but the strongest dispelling magics.

Flickerdart
2010-02-02, 08:21 PM
No, Ur-Priest allows divine casters that worship deities to enter it, as long as they give up their casting.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-02, 08:56 PM
The listing says Eye Rays (Su). They are connected very closely (can't aim more than 3 into a 90 degree arc and all that). Hence it's normal to assume it's one ability with a lot of parts. It's also questionable whether you actually need the eye rays for Beholder Mage casting in the first place, or whether you can use the nonfunctional eyestalks you already possess due to PaO.

So I'd say it should be fine.

*breaks out lords of madness*

It says "whenever a beholder mage gains the ability to cast a new level of spells, it must sacrifice the use of its eye rays from one of its ten small eyestalks. From then on, that eyestalk casts spells of that level, and is referred to as a spell-stalk"

If you don't have the use of eye rays, you can't very well sacrifice that use. Thus, you must have them to gain spellcasting levels. You can enter the class without them, though...but thats of limited use.

The stalks act entirely separately. Yes, they have a limit on how many can be aimed in each direction at once, but they are traded out for spellstalks individually, are affected individually by magic items purchased for them(see, the lenses), have different abilities for each, etc.

They also are routinely referred to in the plural, such as "supernatural effects" when referred to in the biological section of LoM, and "Each of a beholder's X eye rays resembles a spell cast as a Xth level caster" in the beginning of the Su description for each MM beholder/beholderkin. The logical assumption is that they were grouped together to avoid listing ten different Su abilities for each beholderkin, but they are treated as separate.

You also have to put out your "central antimagic eye". The antimagic cone is also an Su ability, and thus, it isn't an antimagic eye by default from PaO.


This is a problem, yes. As I said earlier, you could get a Dweomerkeeper to perform the original PaO. Or you could invest in some Rings of Counterspells (and later, Greater Counterspells) (remember, you can wear more rings than usual as a Beholder). Or you could grab Leadership and get a Truenamer cohort (yes, Truenamer) with Spell Rebirth.

Three rings, yes.

Trying to have a beholder with leadership for non-beholders blatantly contradicts statements that True Beholders NEVER seek friendships with other creatures, etc. While yes, it's possible that this could be altered within a campaign world, the Forgotten Realms setting info regarding Beholders in LoM does absolutely nothing to modify this, and if anything, reinforces it.

As for Dweomerkeeper, leaving aside the problematic assumption that a high level one will be available and willing to turn you into a beholder, something I find questionable, they can only do that once per day. I assume the usual cost assumptions for purchasing spellcasting is out the window for this...since it's not in any way usual.

Edited due to finding the web enhancement at last.

masterjoda99
2010-02-02, 09:35 PM
About your leadership objection: First, you are trying to use flavor info to impose mechanical restrictions where none exist. Even then, an important distinction to remember is that the character in question is not a born beholder, but rather a human transformed permanently into a beholder, therefore it is not that much of a stretch to conclude that such a beholder would still have a much different mindset from one who was born a beholder.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-02, 10:20 PM
About your leadership objection: First, you are trying to use flavor info to impose mechanical restrictions where none exist. Even then, an important distinction to remember is that the character in question is not a born beholder, but rather a human transformed permanently into a beholder, therefore it is not that much of a stretch to conclude that such a beholder would still have a much different mindset from one who was born a beholder.

It's not really a flavor restriction any more than alignment restrictions are flavor. Usually, probably...those sorts of things you can work with. Incidentally, his character must be evil(see Ur-priest), so he's already gone down a rather interesting path. Even if he takes leadership, it's difficult to see how he could not take some nasty negatives. The only benefit he could reasonably qualify for is "Special power", which is only a +1. So, he couldn't get a decently leveled cohort for quite some time anyhow.

Plus, it's not even RAW that you get to build your own cohort. So, this, much like having a dweomerkeeper around willing to happily change you permanently into an evil, ungodly powerful aberration for a pittance rely heavily on a DM that is willing to bend the campaign to make your build work. This is like including non-standard wishes in a build. Yeah...sure, it could work....but it's not RAW.

You also have to keep in mind that this is a very feat intensive build, and I don't know how he's going to fit in leadership.

masterjoda99
2010-02-02, 10:31 PM
Well, I didn't actually claim that you could build your own cohort by RAW or that you wouldn't be affected by the factors for determining leadership score. There is, however, a difference between not getting as strong a cohort as possible due to the tables accompanying leadership, and not getting a cohort at all due to some line describing typical beholder habits in lords of madness. From my point of view, your previous post implied that you were arguing the latter, and if that was not your intention, then I apologize.

As for needing room for the feat, getting bonus feats through taint and then Psychic Reformation or something similar is not much of a stretch, considering the two levels of tainted scholar in there.

Hallavast
2010-02-02, 10:52 PM
Plus, it's not even RAW that you get to build your own cohort. So, this, much like having a dweomerkeeper around willing to happily change you permanently into an evil, ungodly powerful aberration for a pittance rely heavily on a DM that is willing to bend the campaign to make your build work. This is like including non-standard wishes in a build. Yeah...sure, it could work....but it's not RAW.


Indeed. But so what? You're basically saying that if your DM doesn't like it, it's not going to work. But this is true for ANY build. You posture the statement as if you're saying its not that powerful, because some DMs won't like it. Consider the number of people who will see this build. Consider also, of those people, how many will be interested it, mechanically? After that, how many of those people will deign to actually use it? Of those people, how many will have a DM that will likely ban it vs. the percentage of those people who have a DM that will allow or only limit it.

Saying "this build is not RAW" is like saying "this thought excercise fails to present the Acme Seal of Approval". What exactly are you getting at?

Mongoose87
2010-02-02, 11:11 PM
Would you not gain a pile of RHD turning into a beholder?

sofawall
2010-02-02, 11:25 PM
Would you not gain a pile of RHD turning into a beholder?

That would be so much fun!

I use wildshape to turn into a bear, and not only gain stats and natural weapons, but double my HP and BAB too!

In short, really bad idea.

Mongoose87
2010-02-02, 11:35 PM
That would be so much fun!

I use wildshape to turn into a bear, and not only gain stats and natural weapons, but double my HP and BAB too!

In short, really bad idea.

Well, I meant it would keep you from taking a bunch of those class levels.

Flickerdart
2010-02-02, 11:38 PM
A build that uses Ur-Priest, Beholder Mage, PAO and Tainted Scholar along with questionable RAW readings? This is like a black hole of cheese. I do like the Monk and Mystic Theurge in there, those are a nice touch.

Tavar
2010-02-02, 11:48 PM
Well, I meant it would keep you from taking a bunch of those class levels.

But either the effect ends when the spell ends, thereby restoring you to your previous level, or they're permanent, in which case it's ridiculously easy to increase your AB/HP/Saves/etc using such abilities.

sofawall
2010-02-02, 11:51 PM
Well, I meant it would keep you from taking a bunch of those class levels.

Not really. One, there exist ways to get rid of racial hit dice, and two, once you apply it to PaO, there is no reason not to apply it to the other polymorph spells. Once you do that, either the ht dice last as long as the spell does (making it a free huge boost), they are permanent and stacking (hoo boy, that's balanced...), or permanent and non-stacking (meaning nobody casts Polymorph, ever).

All in all, not a good idea.

EDIT: Ninja'd. phooey.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-03, 12:08 AM
An idea for the original version in the first post: perhaps move the contemplative and dweomerkeeper levels up sooner, ultimately delaying the highest level spells, yes, but making it about 4 levels sooner that you can use supernatural spell on PaO, which if you have to worry about dispelling before then, is still quite good, methinks.

I was thinking about that. You could certainly get it by 17 without sacrificing any spell access by going contemplative/dweomerkeeper before getting the 2nd level of ur-priest or the last level of mystic theurge.


Another thing, a highly debatable thing, but still worth mentioning, is swapping a dweomerkeeper level (since supernatural spell is at 4th level, not 5th) for a level of Prestige Paladin, as Paladin of Tyranny, or Ur-Priest adaptation, and taking Sword of the Arcane order to get wizard spells on the Ur side as well as beholder mage side. I disclaim, however, that this is rather cheesy, and also debatable about whether it works, but just a thought.

Elaborate?


This thread needs more Illithid Savant. :smallwink:

Believe me, I was thinking about it, but I can't see any way to be a Beholder and an Illithid simultaneously.

There's also the fact that as a PC Illithid Savant, your power level is entirely dependent on the monsters you fight. It's like the whole "yes, you COULD command a Pseudonatural Paragon Ghostly Visage at level 2" schtick.


I'm AFB so I'll check on this when I get home since this is completely off of mental memory. But as I recall Ur-Priest only requires that you not be of a divine spell casting class that worships a deity. In the crunch I do not recall a rule that says you cannot still -worship- a deity (That part is in the flavor as I recall). Combo that with the rule in Dragon Magic that says if two classes share the same spell list (I forget the page number) then they are interchangeable for prequisites and you could qualify for Initiate of Mystra assuming it has no alignment or other pre-reqs I'm forgetting. My logic here being Cleric and Ur-Priest share the same spell list. Check my work or wait for me to get home to check on that theory though. But if it works then you can just AMF yourself to defend against all but the strongest dispelling magics.

Problem is that while IoM allows you to *cast* in an AMF, PaO would still be suppressed and you'd lose your Beholder Mage and Mystic Theurge class features. At least that's how I read it (we all know how debated AMF is).

Also, an Ur-Priest that worships Mystra, a NG deity, seems a little sus.


*breaks out lords of madness*

It says "whenever a beholder mage gains the ability to cast a new level of spells, it must sacrifice the use of its eye rays from one of its ten small eyestalks. From then on, that eyestalk casts spells of that level, and is referred to as a spell-stalk"

If you don't have the use of eye rays, you can't very well sacrifice that use. Thus, you must have them to gain spellcasting levels. You can enter the class without them, though...but thats of limited use.

It's ambiguous. Obviously, the class was never intended to be entered through PaO. Different people have different interpretations. But note that I did note it in the build.


The stalks act entirely separately. Yes, they have a limit on how many can be aimed in each direction at once, but they are traded out for spellstalks individually, are affected individually by magic items purchased for them(see, the lenses), have different abilities for each, etc.

They also are routinely referred to in the plural, such as "supernatural effects" when referred to in the biological section of LoM, and "Each of a beholder's X eye rays resembles a spell cast as a Xth level caster" in the beginning of the Su description for each MM beholder/beholderkin. The logical assumption is that they were grouped together to avoid listing ten different Su abilities for each beholderkin, but they are treated as separate.

"Special attacks: Eye rays". "Eye Rays (Su)". They're lumped together, so they're one ability. If you want to go by common sense, I can point out that the anatomical mechanism (as detailed in Lords of Madness) that lets a beholder shoot eye rays is common among all of them. You might as well say that a dragon's 2 claws are separate abilities.


You also have to put out your "central antimagic eye". The antimagic cone is also an Su ability, and thus, it isn't an antimagic eye by default from PaO.

Now this is a complete non-starter. Firstly, it's still the antimagic eye anatomically (that is, the eye associated with antimagic), and the reason they have to put it out is presumably because it interferes with their spellcasting (so having it nonfunctional would actually be a plus). Secondly, that's why I put "Assume Supernatural Ability x2" in there. Once for the eye rays, and once for the antimagic eye. If you're ruled to need it.


Three rings, yes.

Trying to have a beholder with leadership for non-beholders blatantly contradicts statements that True Beholders NEVER seek friendships with other creatures, etc. While yes, it's possible that this could be altered within a campaign world, the Forgotten Realms setting info regarding Beholders in LoM does absolutely nothing to modify this, and if anything, reinforces it.

Did you miss the section on "Sane Beholders" in Lords of Madness? It even details a cult started by a sane beholder. They're certainly capable of leadership.


As for Dweomerkeeper, leaving aside the problematic assumption that a high level one will be available and willing to turn you into a beholder, something I find questionable, they can only do that once per day. I assume the usual cost assumptions for purchasing spellcasting is out the window for this...since it's not in any way usual.

The description of Sigil says that you can find NPCs with any combination of classes. A Wiz5/Clr1/Dweomerkeeper 10 will do nicely.

And I already noted that even if they charged double, you can still do it by level 3 (and if you want to get into class level retraining, you can just become a Dweomerkeeper straight off and PaO yourself, followed by massive retraining).


It's not really a flavor restriction any more than alignment restrictions are flavor. Usually, probably...those sorts of things you can work with. Incidentally, his character must be evil(see Ur-priest), so he's already gone down a rather interesting path. Even if he takes leadership, it's difficult to see how he could not take some nasty negatives. The only benefit he could reasonably qualify for is "Special power", which is only a +1. So, he couldn't get a decently leveled cohort for quite some time anyhow.

Evil people aren't necessarily nasty to their minions. You can be evil and still have friends. Evil people ARE necessarily nasty to people in general, but your followers only care how you treat them.


Plus, it's not even RAW that you get to build your own cohort. So, this, much like having a dweomerkeeper around willing to happily change you permanently into an evil, ungodly powerful aberration for a pittance rely heavily on a DM that is willing to bend the campaign to make your build work. This is like including non-standard wishes in a build. Yeah...sure, it could work....but it's not RAW.

It is RAW that you can attempt to recruit a cohort of a particular class. Presumably some wacky build would return 404, but a straight Truenamer should be no problem.


You also have to keep in mind that this is a very feat intensive build, and I don't know how he's going to fit in leadership.

Feats from Taint help (going to severe corruption and depravity gets you 4 of them), and there's also a free feat from Human Paragon. You could also chaos shuffle the Monk feat. It's not too feat-starved.


A build that uses Ur-Priest, Beholder Mage, PAO and Tainted Scholar along with questionable RAW readings? This is like a black hole of cheese. I do like the Monk and Mystic Theurge in there, those are a nice touch.

The only RAW reading that's at all questionable is the Eye Rays being one ability as far as I can see.

But yes. I do my best :smallwink:.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 12:35 AM
Indeed. But so what? You're basically saying that if your DM doesn't like it, it's not going to work. But this is true for ANY build. You posture the statement as if you're saying its not that powerful, because some DMs won't like it. Consider the number of people who will see this build. Consider also, of those people, how many will be interested it, mechanically? After that, how many of those people will deign to actually use it? Of those people, how many will have a DM that will likely ban it vs. the percentage of those people who have a DM that will allow or only limit it.

Saying "this build is not RAW" is like saying "this thought excercise fails to present the Acme Seal of Approval". What exactly are you getting at?

Well, if it's not a usable build, and it's not RAW legal, then isn't the entire thing pointless? At least, until it's fixed?

The whole point of optimization is to get the best possible build within the rules. So far as the DM is concerned, it's typically assumed that the DM isn't restricting RAW...but that he isn't granting you things willy nilly either. Thus, wishes are calculated via the guaranteed results, not off the maximum possible results, because that way lies lunacy.



But yes, in answer to the question, beholders do have 12-33 hit die, and not being intended as a player race, no level adjust. Any method of becoming a beholder that involves keeping the racial hit die is obviously not going to be practical.

Side note on shape changing...the traditional way to make PaO permanent is to simply cast it twice. After all, if you're shape changing to the exact same kind of creature you are, you have no difficulty getting enough bonuses to hit permanent duration. I presume the idea behind enlarge person is to try to hit enough bonuses to do the same while cutting down the bill for casting services. It only works if you assume that abberations and humans are in the same kingdom. Granted, the listed examples are animal, vegetable and mineral, but it's pretty uncertain what kingdom abberations would actually fall in by RAW. Casting twice is a way of bypassing this uncertainty.


MasterJoda, I should clarify. It's still possible to take leadership, I guess...just not in a useful fashion. His suggestion was that he could pick up a truenamer. There's really no guarantee that a beholder would be able to pick up a truenamer companion, and every indicator would be that it's incredibly unlikely. Things like aloofness and cruelty are listed as negative modifiers in the rules for leadership, so while those traits are normally relegated to fluff, they become rules-relevant, and when your race ALWAYS has them, it's a problem. I suppose in theory, in very particular situations, you could solve some of these problems by taking a beholder as a cohort, but the RHD is such an obstacle that unless you assume the cohort is also following this build(leading to an interesting chain of assumptions), you'll never get anything useful from him.

At a minimum, you need a feat for the central eye, and one for the eye stalks. If you go with the assumption that each stalk is indeed independent, you need 11 feats to enter by this route.

Ur-priest also requires three feats, as well as other fun stuff.

Also, you need two levels of Ur-priest to enter Mystic Theurge unless you make use of early entry tricks. Those tricks require a minimum of one additional feat.

So, you're burning at least six feats on prereqs in the early levels. Two flaws, human, 1st level, 3rd level, human paragon feat, presumably. Doable, but expensive.

Now, we run into the heavy duty problems. For example, taking human paragon to advance beholder mage. You have to be a human to advance human paragon, and you cannot advance beholder mage unless you are a beholder. Due to the unique requirements for spell levels, this can't be bypassed even through advancing by another class. These two just do not work together whatsoever.

Not having heroes of horror, I can't speak to the requirements for tainted scholar, but if it takes feats, you suddenly have severe feat shortage issues in addition to the beholder/human problem.

Contemplative with Urpriest is interesting, but I don't actually see any problems there. Presumably the requisite contact with a solar or similar can be arranged by purchasing a casting of gate.

Dweomerkeeper adds two feats to the prereq list. This is actually doable, thanks to how late it's taken, but this pretty much precludes using feats to try to fix other build problems. In particular, I don't see how he can get iron heart surge.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-03, 01:04 AM
snip

I addressed most of your concerns in the post directly above. Those that I didn't I'll just note now.

- Aberrations are animals according to LoM, just really weird ones, so you do get the +5.

- Ur-priest only requires Iron Will and Spell Focus (Evil) as far as I can see.

- Tainted Scholar's entry requirements are ludicrously easy. Concentration 8 ranks, Know (arcana) 4 ranks, can cast 1st level arcane spells, moderate or greater depravity.

- The taint mechanics in Heroes of Horror give you free feats, which I'm using. If you didn't know about those, I can see why you'd think it's feat-starved. As written, I don't think you even need flaws.

- You don't need to buy the gate to get a Pit Fiend, since you can already cast 9th level arcane spells by this point. You could do a Greater Planar Binding, too.


Now, we run into the heavy duty problems. For example, taking human paragon to advance beholder mage. You have to be a human to advance human paragon, and you cannot advance beholder mage unless you are a beholder. Due to the unique requirements for spell levels, this can't be bypassed even through advancing by another class. These two just do not work together whatsoever.

I addressed this in my "anticipated questions" section.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 01:12 AM
Also, an Ur-Priest that worships Mystra, a NG deity, seems a little sus.

Well, you need a diety with the Magic domain for it to work for Dweomerkeeper. And I guess you're within the requisite steps to pull it off. I believe this would actually work. And on the bright side, Mystra's dead, so that has to cut down on the smiting.

Note: Try not to think about how dead gods grant powers. It makes the head hurt.


It's ambiguous. Obviously, the class was never intended to be entered through PaO. Different people have different interpretations. But note that I did note it in the build.

Agreed. It was obviously intended as an NPC class only.

However, I really don't think this aspect is ambiguous. It says that after the sacrificing of the eye stalk power, you then get the spell ability. This, together with the explanation of how this is happening, strongly indicates that you must have the original eye stalk in working condition.


"Special attacks: Eye rays". "Eye Rays (Su)". They're lumped together, so they're one ability. If you want to go by common sense, I can point out that the anatomical mechanism (as detailed in Lords of Madness) that lets a beholder shoot eye rays is common among all of them. You might as well say that a dragon's 2 claws are separate abilities.

It's amazing how many monsters have their full attack listed as Claw/Claw/Bite, but only have one entry for the claw attack. Or, more commonly, they're listed as two claws. However, the listing only occurs once, there is never an entry for each claw.

Obviously, the animal has two claws, with which it can make natural attacks. They're only listed once because the claws are exactly the same.


Now this is a complete non-starter. Firstly, it's still the antimagic eye anatomically (that is, the eye associated with antimagic), and the reason they have to put it out is presumably because it interferes with their spellcasting (so having it nonfunctional would actually be a plus). Secondly, that's why I put "Assume Supernatural Ability x2" in there. Once for the eye rays, and once for the antimagic eye. If you're ruled to need it.

If you blow the extra feat on the eye, you're good. Presuming you can take assume supernatural ability more than once.

The antimagic eye, like the eyestalks, is explicitly referenced as powering casting abilities. It acts as the arcane focus, and powers the spell resistance later. Thus, even the fluff doesn't back up the need to put it out for spellcasting.

I also reference elder orbs, which have both an antimagic eye and spellcasting. They merely need to close the eye to cast, not put it out. Thus, it's clear that this is not the case.

Raw wise, if you didn't stab out your antimagic eye, you don't get in the class. If it was never an antimagic eye...it's just an eye, and does not fulfill the requirements.


Did you miss the section on "Sane Beholders" in Lords of Madness? It even details a cult started by a sane beholder. They're certainly capable of leadership.

Read that section, and read how they treat their followers. Then, read the section on leadership in the SRD. Notice how they match up with all those negative modifiers exactly.


The description of Sigil says that you can find NPCs with any combination of classes. A Wiz5/Clr1/Dweomerkeeper 10 will do nicely.

The ability to find a wizard with any combination of classes(presuming your level 2 self is in Sigil) does not mean you can obtain any service at DMG prices. Why? DMG prices have listed assumptions for what class is casting them. Getting a dweomerkeeper to blow his limited Su casting on you is thus, not automatically the same price as getting the same spell cast by a generic wizard. In fact, so far as Im aware, there is no listed RAW price for this service.

Plus, the existence of someone does not guarantee their willingness to cast whatever you like.


And I already noted that even if they charged double, you can still do it by level 3 (and if you want to get into class level retraining, you can just become a Dweomerkeeper straight off and PaO yourself, followed by massive retraining).

Retraining doesn't work that way. At least, not the phb2 retraining. You can't use later events to fulfill prereqs for earlier ones. It has to be a retrain that you could have done back at that time.


Evil people aren't necessarily nasty to their minions. You can be evil and still have friends. Evil people ARE necessarily nasty to people in general, but your followers only care how you treat them.

It's not just the evil bit, which admittedly, makes having a reputation for fairness and generosity more difficult....still possible, mind you...some evil guys manage good PR. This is a bit more difficult when you're a beholder.

The big thing is that beholders ALWAYS are hostile to other races. Even in the rare instances when sane beholders(already rare) have cult followings, they manage these cults through coercion and extensive use of enchantments. Yes, you can get followers in this way, but this, together with the use of charisma as your tertiary stat, ensures nasty negative modifiers to leadership.


It is RAW that you can attempt to recruit a cohort of a particular class. Presumably some wacky build would return 404, but a straight Truenamer should be no problem.

There is a huge gap between "can try" and being able to do so. You can also simply try to wish for a pet truenamer, but it's no more guaranteed to happen.


Feats from Taint help (going to severe corruption and depravity gets you 4 of them), and there's also a free feat from Human Paragon. You could also chaos shuffle the Monk feat. It's not too feat-starved.

Four taint feats, how? I was under the impression that only moderate and severe taints granted feats, one each. Going beyond that results in death or NPCdom via insanity.

As for the will save...there's always the possibility of rolling a 1. If you do, you end up taking another level of tainted scholar at an awkward time.

Hallavast
2010-02-03, 01:14 AM
Well, if it's not a usable build, and it's not RAW legal, then isn't the entire thing pointless? No. But at any rate, you were not claiming it was an usuable build. That would be absurd.


The whole point of optimization is to get the best possible build within the rules. So far as the DM is concerned, it's typically assumed that the DM isn't restricting RAW...but that he isn't granting you things willy nilly either. Thus, wishes are calculated via the guaranteed results, not off the maximum possible results, because that way lies lunacy. The Optimization you refer to is a thought excercise. The DM is hypothetical in such an excercise and, in that case, the "best" build is one that follows the rules as written.

However, this practice is rarely practical when considering a build for actual gameplay, because so many things about DM rulings, setting restrictions/boons, and party cohesion are unknowable. So, when considering a build thus, it should be acceptable to include little caveats like cohort preferences and such, even though they are not guarranteed. This is at the very least more acceptable than proclaiming a build option "RaW Illegal" and disregarding it.

The difference lies in purpose: are you Opping in order to show off your 1337 thought excercising skillz on teh internetz, or are you trying to build a powerful template for people to apply to their games? Facets concerning RaW are a little more flexible in the latter purpose.

Thus, I find it silly that you would throw all "RAW illegal" ideas out the window on principle. :smalltongue:

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 01:15 AM
I addressed this in my "anticipated questions" section.

You can't take more levels in PrCs if you no longer meet the qualifications. You also lose some benefits of those PrCs. Spellcasting, for example.

I see no explicit exception for racial classes in regard to further advancement. They get to keep their current levels, which is nice, but there is nothing that allows them to continue advancing even when they are no longer of that race.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 01:17 AM
No. But at any rate, you were not claiming it was an usuable build. That would be absurd.
The Optimization you refer to is a thought excercise. The DM is hypothetical in such an excercise and, in that case, the "best" build is one that follows the rules as written.

This would be TO. And thus, falls under the "needs to be RAW legal" clause.


However, this practice is rarely practical when considering a build for actual gameplay, because so many things about DM rulings, setting restrictions/boons, and party cohesion are unknowable. So, when considering a build thus, it should be acceptable to include little caveats like cohort preferences and such, even though they are not guarranteed. This is at the very least more acceptable than proclaiming a build option "RaW Illegal" and disregarding it.

The difference lies in purpose: are you Opping in order to show off your 1337 thought excercising skillz on teh internetz, or are you trying to build a powerful template for people to apply to their games? Facets concerning RaW are a little more flexible in the latter purpose.

Thus, I find it silly that you would throw all "RAW illegal" ideas out the window on principle. :smalltongue:

Look, if it's not RAW legal, it's kinda pointless as TO.

If it's not playable, it's kinda pointless as PO.

If it's not either, it's pretty much useless.

Hallavast
2010-02-03, 01:25 AM
This would be TO. Not necessarily.


Look, if it's not RAW legal, it's kinda pointless as TO. Agreed.


If it's not playable, it's kinda pointless as PO. You pose this as a premise. It is not. You are determining whether a build is playable as per RAW. Such is not the case. It is possible, to use the example above, to be granted a sufficient cohort for that purpose. This isn't RAW, but it isn't "unplayable".

In other words, "RAW legal" and "playable" are distinct concepts. One does not follow the other by necessity.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-03, 01:34 AM
Well, you need a diety with the Magic domain for it to work for Dweomerkeeper. And I guess you're within the requisite steps to pull it off. I believe this would actually work. And on the bright side, Mystra's dead, so that has to cut down on the smiting.

Well, you don't actually need a deity with the Magic domain, because you aren't getting your powers from a deity and can hence pick any domain that's not Chaos or Good.


Note: Try not to think about how dead gods grant powers. It makes the head hurt.

Oh, that's easy. They get it from the raw energy of the planes, just like clerics who don't follow a god or clerics who follow demon lords/archdevils.


Agreed. It was obviously intended as an NPC class only.

However, I really don't think this aspect is ambiguous. It says that after the sacrificing of the eye stalk power, you then get the spell ability. This, together with the explanation of how this is happening, strongly indicates that you must have the original eye stalk in working condition.

Ok. But with a feat stuck to it, I'd say it works.


It's amazing how many monsters have their full attack listed as Claw/Claw/Bite, but only have one entry for the claw attack. Or, more commonly, they're listed as two claws. However, the listing only occurs once, there is never an entry for each claw.

Obviously, the animal has two claws, with which it can make natural attacks. They're only listed once because the claws are exactly the same.

Well, no, they're one pair of claws, which is different from 2 entirely separate attacks as evidenced by Rapidstrike.


If you blow the extra feat on the eye, you're good. Presuming you can take assume supernatural ability more than once.

The antimagic eye, like the eyestalks, is explicitly referenced as powering casting abilities. It acts as the arcane focus, and powers the spell resistance later. Thus, even the fluff doesn't back up the need to put it out for spellcasting.

I also reference elder orbs, which have both an antimagic eye and spellcasting. They merely need to close the eye to cast, not put it out. Thus, it's clear that this is not the case.

Raw wise, if you didn't stab out your antimagic eye, you don't get in the class. If it was never an antimagic eye...it's just an eye, and does not fulfill the requirements.

Ok, ok. You certainly have a point, and I was being a bit picky. So you do have to burn two feats on Assume Supernatural Ability (it says you can take it multiple times, but each time it applies to a different ability, exactly what we want).


Read that section, and read how they treat their followers. Then, read the section on leadership in the SRD. Notice how they match up with all those negative modifiers exactly.

Oh, come on. You're saying it's mandatory to break the Evil Overlord List. The character has an Int of 17 and an astronomical Wis, she's not that stupid.


The ability to find a wizard with any combination of classes(presuming your level 2 self is in Sigil) does not mean you can obtain any service at DMG prices. Why? DMG prices have listed assumptions for what class is casting them. Getting a dweomerkeeper to blow his limited Su casting on you is thus, not automatically the same price as getting the same spell cast by a generic wizard. In fact, so far as Im aware, there is no listed RAW price for this service.

Plus, the existence of someone does not guarantee their willingness to cast whatever you like.

You have a point. So, rings of counterspells et al it is, then, I guess.


Retraining doesn't work that way. At least, not the phb2 retraining. You can't use later events to fulfill prereqs for earlier ones. It has to be a retrain that you could have done back at that time.

No, you just have to be able to qualify for everything using the remaining classes. The only prerequisite for Beholder Mage is the two Assume (Su) Ability feats, so you can retrain it to be anywhere after level 1 where you pick up those feats. The PaO isn't a class feature, and hence you can retrain levels before you got it.


It's not just the evil bit, which admittedly, makes having a reputation for fairness and generosity more difficult....still possible, mind you...some evil guys manage good PR. This is a bit more difficult when you're a beholder.

The big thing is that beholders ALWAYS are hostile to other races. Even in the rare instances when sane beholders(already rare) have cult followings, they manage these cults through coercion and extensive use of enchantments. Yes, you can get followers in this way, but this, together with the use of charisma as your tertiary stat, ensures nasty negative modifiers to leadership.

But I see no reason why you as a PC have to follow this. You could be one of the even fewer sane beholders who understands this concept called "loyalty", maybe because you were once a human.


There is a huge gap between "can try" and being able to do so. You can also simply try to wish for a pet truenamer, but it's no more guaranteed to happen.

Hmm. Well, it was only a "would be nice" anyway...


Four taint feats, how? I was under the impression that only moderate and severe taints granted feats, one each. Going beyond that results in death or NPCdom via insanity.

Moderate corruption, severe corruption, moderate depravity, severe depravity. From what I can tell (the book is SO badly written) they're tied to gaining moderate or severe symptoms, with the explicit exception of if you use Taint Suppression to replace a mild symptom.


As for the will save...there's always the possibility of rolling a 1. If you do, you end up taking another level of tainted scholar at an awkward time.

This is true. On the other hand, a) it'll only happen once or twice, b) Tainted Scholar gives pretty good benefits, c) there doesn't appear to actually be anything stopping you from retraining the level.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-03, 01:46 AM
With regard to the RAW query about Unearthed Arcana:


Itís possible for a powerful magic effect such as shapechange,
reincarnate, or wish to change a characterís race. If a character
has already taken racial paragon levels in his original race, he
can never become a paragon of another race. However, such
shapechanging and form-altering magics also cause no loss of a
paragonís class abilitiesóthe class abilities gained from racial
paragon levels are affected no more or less drastically than benefi
ts gained from having levels in any other class.

If it disqualified you from the paragon class, you'd lose your abilities, but you don't, so it doesn't, or at least that's how I see it. If you couldn't gain more levels in your original paragon class, it'd say so, but it only says that you can't take levels in the new paragon class.

Anyway, as I said, it's not actually essential, though it's useful.

Raendyn
2010-02-03, 05:41 AM
A) In Unearthed Arcana it states that paragon classes don't go away if you change race (you just can't become a paragon of your new race, and we're not trying to), and it doesn't say you can't gain more levels in them afterward. dn't want something that unlikely.
.................................................. ..................................................


A) Alternative Source Spell lets her cast any arcane spell as a divine spell and vice versa. She can cast up to 5th level arcane spells at this point.



there are too many gray areas in this build...
1st of all the quality of few books used,bastardized vesion 3.0-3.5 (anyways not much of a prob if dm aprooves)
2ndly:alternative source spell.... you rly assume this is enough to qualify for the mystic theurge prereq's? w/e still up to the dm...
3rdly: decide what you are... honestly when you wanna take more human paragon lvls you are human changed into beholder(so its something temporarly),when you want beholder mage you change your point of view & you are a beholder without any limitations... From my point of view 1 of these things can be counted,not both, & the " it does not say you can't" is not the same phrace with "it says you can"
lastly:temporarly modifiers of any way are not counted in for prereq's.

Honestly, the prereq's are counted with you there alone w/o items/buffs only your feats/inherent/lvl adjustment/class ability bonuses applied.(i may have forgoten something here)

This "thing" you have here reminds me of the hulkin thrower orc+enlarge person...

Also even if you want to go directly to the letter & allow 3.0e. you still lack the eye-ray sacrifice.some1 mentioned be4.

There are plenty of ways of way to create imbaness 3.5e+cores&erata !cough cough redwizard any crowed controling effect heighten to lvl 20/cough cough redwiz any no-limit dmging spell increased caster lvl to 40th(not to mention spell power yet!not to mention empowered & maximized at the same time,not even mentoning that these things dont increase if fact the spell slot,it is just increased for the calculation=you can actually use more metamagics,bring along an incantatrix in your party plx!)& i am talking here of an under-the-average prestigue with many drawbacks & simple build of wiz10/red10.imagine what can be brought up if you optimize...

magic9mushroom
2010-02-03, 07:53 AM
there are too many gray areas in this build...
1st of all the quality of few books used,bastardized vesion 3.0-3.5 (anyways not much of a prob if dm aprooves)

Savage Species was never updated and hence is still legal - Assume Supernatural Ability doesn't do anything which was explicitly fixed in 3.5 (*cough*critrangestacking*cough*).


2ndly:alternative source spell.... you rly assume this is enough to qualify for the mystic theurge prereq's? w/e still up to the dm...

By the letter of the requirements it qualifies. This is a theoretical optimisation exercise.


3rdly: decide what you are... honestly when you wanna take more human paragon lvls you are human changed into beholder(so its something temporarly),when you want beholder mage you change your point of view & you are a beholder without any limitations... From my point of view 1 of these things can be counted,not both, & the " it does not say you can't" is not the same phrace with "it says you can"

To take the first level of Human Paragon you have to be a human (and you are, at that point). You are not disqualified from the class by no longer being human after you have already taken 1 level in it (this is explicit). Polymorph Any Object changes you into a Beholder, so you can take Beholder Mage.


lastly:temporarly modifiers of any way are not counted in for prereq's.

Honestly, the prereq's are counted with you there alone w/o items/buffs only your feats/inherent/lvl adjustment/class ability bonuses applied.(i may have forgoten something here)

Polymorph Any Object specifically states that it "changes one object or creature into another". Hence, you are a Beholder after having it cast on you. If it is removed, you are no longer a Beholder and lose the benefits of the prestige class.


This "thing" you have here reminds me of the hulkin thrower orc+enlarge person...

Yes, they're both theoretical optimisation exercises.


Also even if you want to go directly to the letter & allow 3.0e. you still lack the eye-ray sacrifice.some1 mentioned be4.

Assume Supernatural Ability, as I mentioned earlier. Yes I very much DO have the eye-rays, and can sacrifice them.


There are plenty of ways of way to create imbaness 3.5e+cores&erata !cough cough redwizard any crowed controling effect heighten to lvl 20/cough cough redwiz any no-limit dmging spell increased caster lvl to 40th(not to mention spell power yet!not to mention empowered & maximized at the same time,not even mentoning that these things dont increase if fact the spell slot,it is just increased for the calculation=you can actually use more metamagics,bring along an incantatrix in your party plx!)& i am talking here of an under-the-average prestigue with many drawbacks & simple build of wiz10/red10.imagine what can be brought up if you optimize...

Imagine what can be brought up if you optimise? This. Forget metamagic, she has save DCs in the 40s or 50s, gets about 8 times as many spells per day, and can cast 12 spells per round.

So I really don't see how the existence of incantatrixes and red wizards has much bearing on this.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 09:05 AM
Oh, come on. You're saying it's mandatory to break the Evil Overlord List. The character has an Int of 17 and an astronomical Wis, she's not that stupid.

Stupidity is not required to act like a beholder. Every beholder also has the exact same int(and decent wis and cha), and acts that way. It's a racial trait.


You have a point. So, rings of counterspells et al it is, then, I guess.

Generally the best anti-dispeller method. Probably multiple ones, charged with different variations of dispell spells. Doesn't stop a very persistant dispeller, but hey, not much does.


No, you just have to be able to qualify for everything using the remaining classes. The only prerequisite for Beholder Mage is the two Assume (Su) Ability feats, so you can retrain it to be anywhere after level 1 where you pick up those feats. The PaO isn't a class feature, and hence you can retrain levels before you got it.

One nitpick. You're no longer referring to retraining, you're referring to rebuilding, if you're selecting new class levels.

Either way, though, you can't retrain in a way that makes your new build invalid. And taking Human Paragon(advancing Beholder Mage) would, because they cannot both be advanced at the same time. Ever.


But I see no reason why you as a PC have to follow this. You could be one of the even fewer sane beholders who understands this concept called "loyalty", maybe because you were once a human.

I've yet to see any evidence showing this is possible, especially in Faerun. I also don't see being evil and having unholy amounts of taint as being very helpful here.


This is true. On the other hand, a) it'll only happen once or twice, b) Tainted Scholar gives pretty good benefits, c) there doesn't appear to actually be anything stopping you from retraining the level.

It is fairly unlikely that you'll roll more than one or two ones. And it's not as if levels in tainted scholar are actually bad...still, depending on the time, it's annoying.

Retraining levels is pure DM fiat territory, with the suggestions given including obstacles like quests and reccomending the DM approve any such change individually. So, if your DM allows you to, retraining these IS possible...but thats hardly certain.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 09:06 AM
To take the first level of Human Paragon you have to be a human (and you are, at that point). You are not disqualified from the class by no longer being human after you have already taken 1 level in it (this is explicit). Polymorph Any Object changes you into a Beholder, so you can take Beholder Mage.

The explicit text only says that you do not lose the benefits of existing class levels when you lose the race.

It never overrules the ban on taking more levels, nor does it overrule any other general prerequisite rule. So, by RAW, if you lost other requirements for a racial paragon class, you'd lose all the benefits of it. Not generally a concern in that regard, but the inability to take further class levels once you fail to meet the prereqs is not overruled, and being general, is in effect unless you have a specific exception.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 09:12 AM
You pose this as a premise. It is not. You are determining whether a build is playable as per RAW. Such is not the case. It is possible, to use the example above, to be granted a sufficient cohort for that purpose. This isn't RAW, but it isn't "unplayable".

In other words, "RAW legal" and "playable" are distinct concepts. One does not follow the other by necessity.

This is not a practical build that would be allowed at the tabletop by....almost any DM. Therefore, it's way outside the bounds of practical optimization. The OP even addresses this a bit in his initial post with his "My DM won't let me play this" question.

Hallavast
2010-02-03, 09:25 AM
This is not a practical build that would be allowed at the tabletop by....almost any DM. Therefore, it's way outside the bounds of practical optimization. This is strange considering the level of expected power on this very forum at high levels. I remember, not too long ago, a thread about a rogue who was doing crazy amounts of SA damage, and the playground pretty much responded "meh, you need to do at least something crazy overpowered at that lvl just to survive".



The OP even addresses this a bit in his initial post with his "My DM won't let me play this" question.
Indeed, but I have no doubt that someone may be able to play this character. Even if there isn't, as you suggest, a player willing to try it out in a game, it could certainly be used as an NPC. There's no need to arbitrarily present a limit to this build's "usefulness". Further, presenting such a limit in such an absolute manner might be nearsighted.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 09:34 AM
This is strange considering the level of expected power on this very forum at high levels. I remember, not too long ago, a thread about a rogue who was doing crazy amounts of SA damage, and the playground pretty much responded "meh, you need to do at least something crazy overpowered at that lvl just to survive".

This build is in no way comparable to a rogue with great sneak attack damage. A rogue without great sneak attack damage(or another form of excellent damage) isn't crazy overpowered. He's a tier 3 class, which is pretty much the definition of balanced.

A beholder mage/ur priest/tainted scholar/dweomerkeeper/etc probably ends up around tier -7, going by the normal adjustments for those PrCs. For TO, this is great, and interesting to make work/challenge, but it's not a build you bust out to go with the party rogue.


Indeed, but I have no doubt that someone may be able to play this character. Even if there isn't, as you suggest, a player willing to try it out in a game, it could certainly be used as an NPC. There's no need to arbitrarily present a limit to this build's "usefulness". Further, presenting such a limit in such an absolute manner might be nearsighted.

This character is only slightly more playable in a normal game than pun-pun is. Save DCs can clear 100, I believe, and that's just tainted scholar. Just use dieties instead, they're much more balanced.

Hallavast
2010-02-03, 10:12 AM
This build is in no way comparable to a rogue with great sneak attack damage. A rogue without great sneak attack damage(or another form of excellent damage) isn't crazy overpowered. He's a tier 3 class, which is pretty much the definition of balanced.

A beholder mage/ur priest/tainted scholar/dweomerkeeper/etc probably ends up around tier -7, going by the normal adjustments for those PrCs. For TO, this is great, and interesting to make work/challenge, but it's not a build you bust out to go with the party rogue.
Uhuh. I'm not comparing this build to a rogue, obviously. I'm comparing reactions to something that is obviously absurd (a rogue dealing 150d6 of sneak attack damage or more) to the reaction you gave me. I understand that I underestimated the build, but the logic remains the same: gamebreaking is gamebreaking. Does it matter to what degree a game is broken? Any attempt at fixing the rogue is going to undo the build or nerf his opportunities to SA by circumstance. My point is that people seem to be willing to play absurdly powerful characters, and some even expect cheese in their games. The degree of cheese is hardly important.




This character is only slightly more playable in a normal game than pun-pun is. Save DCs can clear 100, I believe, and that's just tainted scholar. Just use dieties instead, they're much more balanced.

I hadn't realized this. I'm still in the middle of researching. I still think it can be moulded into an epic level npc, though. Simply because "balance" is highly subjective at that point, and most deities are outdated.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-03, 10:17 AM
Stupidity is not required to act like a beholder. Every beholder also has the exact same int(and decent wis and cha), and acts that way. It's a racial trait.

Well, we know that some beholders don't act that way, since the alignment descriptor is "Usually lawful evil". Beholder childbirth and weird racial ideas of being personally created by a god probably play into it, making it not entirely a trait of having a beholder body.


One nitpick. You're no longer referring to retraining, you're referring to rebuilding, if you're selecting new class levels.

You're right. Bleh.


Either way, though, you can't retrain in a way that makes your new build invalid. And taking Human Paragon(advancing Beholder Mage) would, because they cannot both be advanced at the same time. Ever.

I agree that you can't have an invalid build, but disagree that Human Paragon advancing Beholder Mage is invalid.


I've yet to see any evidence showing this is possible, especially in Faerun. I also don't see being evil and having unholy amounts of taint as being very helpful here.

I'm not particularly familiar with Faerun, and I don't believe I used any FR-specific sources. You have a point that stupendous taint scores (especially depravity) would likely make you have to act like a complete ****. Conceded.


It is fairly unlikely that you'll roll more than one or two ones. And it's not as if levels in tainted scholar are actually bad...still, depending on the time, it's annoying.

Retraining levels is pure DM fiat territory, with the suggestions given including obstacles like quests and reccomending the DM approve any such change individually. So, if your DM allows you to, retraining these IS possible...but thats hardly certain.

We're in agreement there. Maybe a rerolling schtick from somewhere would be useful, since that drops the likelihood to 1/400.


The explicit text only says that you do not lose the benefits of existing class levels when you lose the race.

It never overrules the ban on taking more levels, nor does it overrule any other general prerequisite rule. So, by RAW, if you lost other requirements for a racial paragon class, you'd lose all the benefits of it. Not generally a concern in that regard, but the inability to take further class levels once you fail to meet the prereqs is not overruled, and being general, is in effect unless you have a specific exception.

Isn't one of the most fundamental benefits of a class level the ability to take the next level in that class? :smalltongue:


This is not a practical build that would be allowed at the tabletop by....almost any DM. Therefore, it's way outside the bounds of practical optimization. The OP even addresses this a bit in his initial post with his "My DM won't let me play this" question.


This build is in no way comparable to a rogue with great sneak attack damage. A rogue without great sneak attack damage(or another form of excellent damage) isn't crazy overpowered. He's a tier 3 class, which is pretty much the definition of balanced.

A beholder mage/ur priest/tainted scholar/dweomerkeeper/etc probably ends up around tier -7, going by the normal adjustments for those PrCs. For TO, this is great, and interesting to make work/challenge, but it's not a build you bust out to go with the party rogue.

I agree with Tyndmyr here. No DM in his right mind would let a character play this monstrosity (I'm speaking literally as well as figuratively here), nor would any DM in his right mind use one of these as an enemy NPC at anywhere near the party level, because she would shred the party barring White Raven Tactics abuse or similar infinite action loops (which, of course, this character could also execute).

Incidentally, I mostly identify as female. :smallsmile:


This character is only slightly more playable in a normal game than pun-pun is. Save DCs can clear 100, I believe, and that's just tainted scholar. Just use dieties instead, they're much more balanced.

No, the save DCs are set at 10 + 1/2 Corruption + spell level + specials, and assuming not much in the case of specials that's unlikely to go over 45 + spell level (which is still a 95% chance of failure against almost all sub-epic characters or monsters).

But that quantitative quibble aside, Tyndmyr is, again, right. This is, as someone said earlier in the thread, a black hole of cheese. She's Schrodinger's Wizard with full cleric casting, unbeatable save DCs, the ability to nova like 3 or 4 mages at once, and more endurance than most entire adventuring parties.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 10:33 AM
Well, we know that some beholders don't act that way, since the alignment descriptor is "Usually lawful evil". Beholder childbirth and weird racial ideas of being personally created by a god probably play into it, making it not entirely a trait of having a beholder body.

Actually, yeah, you can have non-evil beholders. How you do that, and adhere to those other traits they supposedly always have is a bit of a challenge to address.

Presumably the non evil ones are most likely also the sane ones. Easiest explanation I can think up.


I agree that you can't have an invalid build, but disagree that Human Paragon advancing Beholder Mage is invalid.

Well, you can advance any spellcasting class yes...but to gain new spell levels in Beholder Mage, you've got to sacrifice the eyestalk at that time. So, you need to be a beholder at that point in time. Being a beholder, you're obviously not human, and thus, do not fulfill the requirement for taking human paragon.

Oddly enough, this would work for most casting classes though, so it's still a handy trick.


We're in agreement there. Maybe a rerolling schtick from somewhere would be useful, since that drops the likelihood to 1/400.

Skill tricks may be useful here. I don't recall offhand if there's one for will saves, but yeah, 1/400 chance is low enough to be safely ignored.


Isn't one of the most fundamental benefits of a class level the ability to take the next level in that class? :smalltongue:

If you no longer meet the prereqs, I believe you're unable to take further class levels. It's published in...complete warrior, is it? It's in multiple places, cant recall them offhand.


I agree with Tyndmyr here. No DM in his right mind would let a character play this monstrosity (I'm speaking literally as well as figuratively here), nor would any DM in his right mind use one of these as an enemy NPC at anywhere near the party level, because she would shred the party barring White Raven Tactics abuse or similar infinite action loops (which, of course, this character could also execute).

Right. A rogue with lots of sneak attack damage still does nothing unless they melee you and hit. They just hurt more, that doesn't break the game. Infinite loops, irresistable DCs, unholy amounts of spellcasting per round...those are actual problems.


Incidentally, I mostly identify as female. :smallsmile:

Ah, durned internet, I never know.


No, the save DCs are set at 10 + 1/2 Corruption + spell level + specials, and assuming not much in the case of specials that's unlikely to go over 45 + spell level (which is still a 95% chance of failure against almost all sub-epic characters or monsters).

Ah, my lack of HoH bites me again. I didn't realize corruption was cut in half. Still, corruption caps at what, 3.5 * con? Assuming even a 24 con(obtain via enchantment and inherent bonuses, could likely go higher w human paragon bonus, ability upgrades etc), that's a 84 corruption score, for a base DC of 52+spell level+specials. But yeah...exact number is mostly irrelevant at that point. Once everyone fails 95% of the time, further pumping is mostly pointless.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-03, 10:55 AM
Actually, yeah, you can have non-evil beholders. How you do that, and adhere to those other traits they supposedly always have is a bit of a challenge to address.

Presumably the non evil ones are most likely also the sane ones. Easiest explanation I can think up.

Yeah. The impression I got from LoM is that insane beholders are Always LE and sane beholders are Usually LE.


Well, you can advance any spellcasting class yes...but to gain new spell levels in Beholder Mage, you've got to sacrifice the eyestalk at that time. So, you need to be a beholder at that point in time. Being a beholder, you're obviously not human, and thus, do not fulfill the requirement for taking human paragon.

Ah, I see what you're driving at there now. My disagreement is that you have to be human at the time to take levels 2 and 3 of Human Paragon.


Oddly enough, this would work for most casting classes though, so it's still a handy trick.

What is? Human Paragon?


Skill tricks may be useful here. I don't recall offhand if there's one for will saves, but yeah, 1/400 chance is low enough to be safely ignored.

Indeed.


If you no longer meet the prereqs, I believe you're unable to take further class levels. It's published in...complete warrior, is it? It's in multiple places, cant recall them offhand.

For prestige classes, you also lose all benefits of the class, so you lose the ability to take the next level, unlike a paragon class. For core classes they spell it out, and if there's no "Ex-Class" entry you're presumed to just be able to keep taking levels in it IIRC.


Right. A rogue with lots of sneak attack damage still does nothing unless they melee you and hit. They just hurt more, that doesn't break the game. Infinite loops, irresistable DCs, unholy amounts of spellcasting per round...those are actual problems.

They most certainly are. This character (incidentally, we should come up with a nickname for her) can Disjunction a party, Weird everyone dead, and then Disintegrate any who didn't die all in one round. And if she's looking like she's almost out of spells for the round she can teleport out rather than give anyone else a chance to attack.


Ah, my lack of HoH bites me again. I didn't realize corruption was cut in half. Still, corruption caps at what, 3.5 * con? Assuming even a 24 con(obtain via enchantment and inherent bonuses, could likely go higher w human paragon bonus, ability upgrades etc), that's a 84 corruption score, for a base DC of 52+spell level+specials. But yeah...exact number is mostly irrelevant at that point. Once everyone fails 95% of the time, further pumping is mostly pointless.

Ironically, one of the few kinds of characters actually capable of hitting those insane save DCs is another Tainted Scholar using Clarity of True Madness or Wholesome Corruption for +80 or more to a save.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 12:00 PM
What is? Human Paragon?

Specifically, using it to boost another racial class. Im considering possible fun with regards to dw kobold sorcs, and a few polymorphs.


For prestige classes, you also lose all benefits of the class, so you lose the ability to take the next level, unlike a paragon class. For core classes they spell it out, and if there's no "Ex-Class" entry you're presumed to just be able to keep taking levels in it IIRC.

Human paragon isn't core, though. Anyhow, I'll have to dig out the books when I get home for this one.


They most certainly are. This character (incidentally, we should come up with a nickname for her) can Disjunction a party, Weird everyone dead, and then Disintegrate any who didn't die all in one round. And if she's looking like she's almost out of spells for the round she can teleport out rather than give anyone else a chance to attack.

A nickname does seem like a good idea. Something emphasizing the tainted beholderish nature...Im terrible w names though.


Ironically, one of the few kinds of characters actually capable of hitting those insane save DCs is another Tainted Scholar using Clarity of True Madness or Wholesome Corruption for +80 or more to a save.

Yeah. Anything else I can think of has some kind of NI combo going on. I suppose rerolls would help, but if you only pass on a 20...it requires a crapton of rerolls to matter.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-03, 12:17 PM
Specifically, using it to boost another racial class. Im considering possible fun with regards to dw kobold sorcs, and a few polymorphs.

Wait, aren't you arguing that you can't advance stuff which requires you to be nonhuman with it?


Human paragon isn't core, though. Anyhow, I'll have to dig out the books when I get home for this one.

Sorry, I meant base classes, not core.


A nickname does seem like a good idea. Something emphasizing the tainted beholderish nature...Im terrible w names though.

Unholy Orb? Unholy both because of taint and from being an Ur-Priest.


Yeah. Anything else I can think of has some kind of NI combo going on. I suppose rerolls would help, but if you only pass on a 20...it requires a crapton of rerolls to matter.

It does.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 12:24 PM
Wait, aren't you arguing that you can't advance stuff which requires you to be nonhuman with it?

Not part of the combo. Specifically, you don't need to be a human to be a sorc, and kobolds get some fun power boosts. So, you could start life as a DW kobold, get PaOed to human, take your human paragon levels advancing sorc, get your PaO dispelled, and merrily continue onward.

Im rolling around how I can use this in an interesting combo still, but it's a possibility, and once dispelled, has no real weakness to exploit.

Beholder mage is a special case. It would work if not for the eyestalks.


Unholy Orb? Unholy both because of taint and from being an Ur-Priest.


That works...I can't help thinking of Cindy for some reason, probably association by overuse of orbs...but it's fitting.

Raendyn
2010-02-03, 04:58 PM
honestly there are 2 things in the dnd multyverse.

Overpowered : Something rly stronger (in some way at least) than the average.
I admit i am fond of such things. I search for such builds.They may be annoying in many ways but no1 can tell a thing about them.

Broken : Something that there are at least a great percentace of dm's/players that will think at least one of the following expresions when they hear it (omg/what a retard/can't he read?/great imagination/"slaping their heads at the wall/.../etc).Something that steps in gray areas,and translates the books from any point of view it wants at any given time.Something that obviously abuses a typo mistake where someone somewhere forgot an f-_-ing "if" or a "again" or any similar but important tiny word to take the advantage.(i am mostly refering to rly rly obvious things when all the similar effects state it in an other way while this 1 doesn't,even if we know it is suposed to work as the others).
Somethign that any guy knows that the author did not had this in mind.

I use the 1st category you use the second thats our difference. as i said last time :
It's all up to the dm! you are his player you live in his universe.

Btw alternative spell source ... we both know you just wish it was that way,also paragon.. since you dont qualify to take the 1st lvl again in my ears it sound that you cant tak the 4th even if you already have 3.PAO.... rly dont abuse a typo. now if your dm allows it ok .but dont tell us its overpowered. its just broken. i know many ppl who use such things,most of them for a reason i dont yet know,always had 1 extra feat "being a dm's girlfriend"!guess what!!!!there's no other reason to allow such things!

Just imagine that.i am a redwizard-7(no reason to change my former class)& i become shade due to a ritual with shar,you honestly think i can take the last 3 lvls?i know it is not writen that i can't but its not writen that i can also! you just wish it could happen this way & since it is not stated otherwise why not?(thats the 2nd category way of thinking mentioned above)

btw when my red wizard (then 1 that no1 can tell me a thing about him) can use 1 triger 1 quickened & 1 standard action (3 spells if you know the way.4 if you are rly smart) with limitless save i can ...let's say a lvl 3 spell (LAWL) curse of the putrid husk & i have -3/-4 enemies...just because i can!
(dont start with mind affecting immunities.we all know there are ways to defend.just replace with other affect spell .higher lvl maybe)
Incantatrix was only mentioned for adding extra metamagic at the 9th lvl spells,but 3rd llvre enough for me.

And the fact that there is no upgrade of some boks in 3.5e = they probably did not want to upgrade them..guess why!! & just because you rly ask for it:
isn't there 2 spells in SS named awaken construct/incarnate construct?
Can you see it now? 1 of these is in spell compendium(erata book) the other not.so if my ears it sound like :we f***ing upgrade some things from SS.just what was not obviously rediculous.so anything in that book that is not rementioned in any 3.5e books is auto-ban.or at least admit tyu bastardised.i never said you cant do that.just dont pretend you dont

I honestly recomend this tread to close it has become a flame section thread just because some ppl cant see the difference between "my dm allowed me to do ,blah blah" & " i ca do ,blah blah",but anyways here you cant see the difference in more obvious arguments.:smallcool:

magic9mushroom
2010-02-04, 12:30 AM
Firstly, Raendyn, I would appreciate it if you used proper spelling and grammar. Your posts border on incomprehensible.


honestly there are 2 things in the dnd multyverse.

Overpowered : Something rly stronger (in some way at least) than the average.
I admit i am fond of such things. I search for such builds.They may be annoying in many ways but no1 can tell a thing about them.

"Tell a thing about them"? What do you mean?


Broken : Something that there are at least a great percentace of dm's/players that will think at least one of the following expresions when they hear it (omg/what a retard/can't he read?/great imagination/"slaping their heads at the wall/.../etc).Something that steps in gray areas,and translates the books from any point of view it wants at any given time.

I do try to avoid using ambiguous rules.


Something that obviously abuses a typo mistake where someone somewhere forgot an f-_-ing "if" or a "again" or any similar but important tiny word to take the advantage.(i am mostly refering to rly rly obvious things when all the similar effects state it in an other way while this 1 doesn't,even if we know it is suposed to work as the others).

Indeed, abusing obvious typos is not something you want to do in any sort of TO exercise. I don't see anything here where I've done that, though.


Somethign that any guy knows that the author did not had this in mind.

Oh, so we're to limit ourselves to what the designers considered themselves now? This is a TO exercise, I'm not advising anyone to try to play it.


I use the 1st category you use the second thats our difference. as i said last time :
It's all up to the dm! you are his player you live in his universe.

You seem to be missing the point that this is Theoretical Optimisation, as opposed to Practical Optimisation. I know the difference.


Btw alternative spell source ... we both know you just wish it was that way,

Pardon? Alternative Source Spell is a metamagic that allows you to cast Arcane spells as Divine spells and vice versa, with a -1 CL modifier. The Unholy Orb can, at the point where she wants to take Mystic Theurge, cast 5th level arcane spells. Now I'll concede that maybe you can't apply ASS to your 5th level spells, because your resulting CL would be too low. But you can certainly apply it to your 4th level spells, meaning that you can cast 4th level and lower divine spells. Which fulfills the requirement of Mystic Theurge for "Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells". Extremely cheesy? Certainly. Wishful thinking? No.


also paragon.. since you dont qualify to take the 1st lvl again in my ears it sound that you cant tak the 4th even if you already have 3.

I didn't take a 4th level of Human Paragon. What are you talking about?


PAO.... rly dont abuse a typo. now if your dm allows it ok .but dont tell us its overpowered. its just broken. i know many ppl who use such things,most of them for a reason i dont yet know,always had 1 extra feat "being a dm's girlfriend"!guess what!!!!there's no other reason to allow such things!

It's not a typo in PaO. Extremely open-ended and abuseable? Yes. Typo? No. Again, TO exercise. Like Pun-Pun, she's not meant to be played.


Just imagine that.i am a redwizard-7(no reason to change my former class)& i become shade due to a ritual with shar,you honestly think i can take the last 3 lvls?i know it is not writen that i can't but its not writen that i can also!

Actually, it IS written that you can't. Let me quote Complete Arcane:


Should a character find herself in a position (because of changed alignment, lost levels, or the like) where she no longer meets the requirements of a prestige class, she loses all special abilities (but not Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or base save bonus) gained from levels of the
prestige class.

This is explicitly the opposite for Human Paragon.


you just wish it could happen this way & since it is not stated otherwise why not?(thats the 2nd category way of thinking mentioned above)

It's really kinda offensive when you use that construction.


btw when my red wizard (then 1 that no1 can tell me a thing about him) can use 1 triger 1 quickened & 1 standard action (3 spells if you know the way.4 if you are rly smart) with limitless save i can ...let's say a lvl 3 spell (LAWL) curse of the putrid husk & i have -3/-4 enemies...just because i can!

Now I'm the one to tell you that you're breaking the rules when you say "limitless saves". Heighten Spell explicitly cannot raise a spell's level above 9th (that's what Improved Heighten Spell is for). Red Wizard doesn't contain anything waiving that restriction. :smallamused:

Oh, and by the way, you think 4 spells per round is awesome. This character gets 12.


(dont start with mind affecting immunities.we all know there are ways to defend.just replace with other affect spell .higher lvl maybe)
Incantatrix was only mentioned for adding extra metamagic at the 9th lvl spells,but 3rd llvre enough for me.

I should note that at 6th level, the Unholy Orb can chuck around Phantasmal Killers with DCs in the mid-30s.


And the fact that there is no upgrade of some boks in 3.5e = they probably did not want to upgrade them..guess why!! & just because you rly ask for it:
isn't there 2 spells in SS named awaken construct/incarnate construct?
Can you see it now? 1 of these is in spell compendium(erata book) the other not.so if my ears it sound like :we f***ing upgrade some things from SS.just what was not obviously rediculous.so anything in that book that is not rementioned in any 3.5e books is auto-ban.or at least admit tyu bastardised.i never said you cant do that.just dont pretend you dont

Again, constructions like "at least admit you did X" are offensive.

That aside, there is no 3.5 book that does anything like Savage Species that I'm aware of, and hence it can't really be considered superseded. There is a similar 3.5 feat called Metamorphic Transfer, but it's a psionic feat, and almost seems, in fact, to be a psionic version of Assume Supernatural Ability (since psions don't qualify for ASA) - which would seem to indicate that they considered ASA to still be legal.


I honestly recomend this tread to close it has become a flame section thread just because some ppl cant see the difference between "my dm allowed me to do ,blah blah" & " i ca do ,blah blah",but anyways here you cant see the difference in more obvious arguments.:smallcool:

The only person I can see being uncivil is you, and I certainly do know the difference between TO and PO, I just don't immediately throw out the former.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-04, 12:52 AM
With all this arguing over the legality of Human Paragon (Beholder Mage), I have decided to post a version without Human Paragon at all (which also avoids the taint of using UA material).

1: Binder
2: Binder
3: Beholder Mage
4: Beholder Mage
5: Tainted Scholar
6: Tainted Scholar
7: Ur-Priest
8: Mystic Theurge
9: Mystic Theurge
10: Mystic Theurge
11: Mystic Theurge
12: Mystic Theurge
13: Contemplative
14: Dweomerkeeper (Ur-Priest)
15: Dweomerkeeper (Ur-Priest)
16: Dweomerkeeper (Beholder Mage)
17: Dweomerkeeper (Beholder Mage)
18: Dweomerkeeper (Beholder Mage)
19: Dweomerkeeper (Beholder Mage)
20: Ur-Priest

Requires Favored/Primary Contact, but that all fits within the feats you can get (and you can still have spares if you take flaws). Gets 9th level divine spells a little earlier and gets 2/day Supernatural Spell.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-04, 11:29 AM
honestly there are 2 things in the dnd multyverse.

Overpowered : Something rly stronger (in some way at least) than the average.
I admit i am fond of such things. I search for such builds.They may be annoying in many ways but no1 can tell a thing about them.

Broken : Something that there are at least a great percentace of dm's/players that will think at least one of the following expresions when they hear it (omg/what a retard/can't he read?/great imagination/"slaping their heads at the wall/.../etc).Something that steps in gray areas,and translates the books from any point of view it wants at any given time.Something that obviously abuses a typo mistake where someone somewhere forgot an f-_-ing "if" or a "again" or any similar but important tiny word to take the advantage.(i am mostly refering to rly rly obvious things when all the similar effects state it in an other way while this 1 doesn't,even if we know it is suposed to work as the others).
Somethign that any guy knows that the author did not had this in mind.

Ambiguities come into play in this build, but I think the goal is to make something RAW legal that isn't a blatant travesty of grammar exploitation.

However, I too would extort you to use proper grammar and spelling. It makes your point much easier to comprehend, and the current post is bad even for texting/chat speak.


I use the 1st category you use the second thats our difference. as i said last time :
It's all up to the dm! you are his player you live in his universe.

Well, it's not so much about what the dm will allow as if the build is rules legal. Dms can opt to allow illegal builds, or disallow legal ones.


Btw alternative spell source ... we both know you just wish it was that way,

Not important. Even if it doesn't, a single feat(Sanctum spell, precocious apprentice, take your pick) remedies this.


also paragon.. since you dont qualify to take the 1st lvl again in my ears it sound that you cant tak the 4th even if you already have 3.

I agree with you on this point, but I feel it should be justified better than "in my ears".


PAO.... rly dont abuse a typo. now if your dm allows it ok .but dont tell us its overpowered. its just broken. i know many ppl who use such things,most of them for a reason i dont yet know,always had 1 extra feat "being a dm's girlfriend"!guess what!!!!there's no other reason to allow such things!

Again, this is not over if it's overpowered/broken. We KNOW the character is ridiculously powerful. That's not the debate.

It's not a typo. That's sorta what PAO does. It changes you into something else. If you dislike his use of modifiers, casting PAO twice avoids any possible contention on that point.


Just imagine that.i am a redwizard-7(no reason to change my former class)& i become shade due to a ritual with shar,you honestly think i can take the last 3 lvls?i know it is not writen that i can't but its not writen that i can also! you just wish it could happen this way & since it is not stated otherwise why not?(thats the 2nd category way of thinking mentioned above)

I don't know the details of this, but I presume it violates the enterance restriction on red wizard. Red wizard is a prestige class, not a base class, so it's slightly different than a paragon class, but in accordance with the rules found in the complete series, you would lose your red wizard class features, but keep things like hit die, bab, and saves. You would also no longer be able to advance the class.

This situation is a little different. First off, you don't lose existing benefits from the paragon class, since in this regard, the specific rules for paragon classes override the general rule for advancing classes.


btw when my red wizard (then 1 that no1 can tell me a thing about him) can use 1 triger 1 quickened & 1 standard action (3 spells if you know the way.4 if you are rly smart) with limitless save i can ...let's say a lvl 3 spell (LAWL) curse of the putrid husk & i have -3/-4 enemies...just because i can!
(dont start with mind affecting immunities.we all know there are ways to defend.just replace with other affect spell .higher lvl maybe)
Incantatrix was only mentioned for adding extra metamagic at the 9th lvl spells,but 3rd llvre enough for me.

I don't know what you're saying here, or how it's relevant to the build.


And the fact that there is no upgrade of some boks in 3.5e = they probably did not want to upgrade them..guess why!! & just because you rly ask for it:
isn't there 2 spells in SS named awaken construct/incarnate construct?
Can you see it now? 1 of these is in spell compendium(erata book) the other not.so if my ears it sound like :we f***ing upgrade some things from SS.just what was not obviously rediculous.so anything in that book that is not rementioned in any 3.5e books is auto-ban.or at least admit tyu bastardised.i never said you cant do that.just dont pretend you dont

That's not how 3.0-3.5 works, according to WOTC. If it was reprinted, the newer printing is the correct one. If it was errataed, use the errataed variant. If neither have happened, use the 3.0 source as is with 3.5.


I honestly recomend this tread to close it has become a flame section thread just because some ppl cant see the difference between "my dm allowed me to do ,blah blah" & " i ca do ,blah blah",but anyways here you cant see the difference in more obvious arguments.:smallcool:

No, no...we weren't flaming each other. We were having an interesting debate over some points of the build. I like some of his tricks, and think the build is interesting overall...I just disagree on some of the finer points. Ditto for other posters, from what I can tell. On complex builds, this is pretty normal.

masterjoda99
2010-02-04, 05:28 PM
With all this arguing over the legality of Human Paragon (Beholder Mage), I have decided to post a version without Human Paragon at all (which also avoids the taint of using UA material).

1: Binder
2: Binder
3: Beholder Mage
4: Beholder Mage
5: Tainted Scholar
6: Tainted Scholar
7: Ur-Priest
8: Mystic Theurge
9: Mystic Theurge
10: Mystic Theurge
11: Mystic Theurge
12: Mystic Theurge
13: Contemplative
14: Dweomerkeeper (Ur-Priest)
15: Dweomerkeeper (Ur-Priest)
16: Dweomerkeeper (Beholder Mage)
17: Dweomerkeeper (Ur-Priest)
18: Dweomerkeeper (Beholder Mage)
19: Dweomerkeeper (Beholder Mage)
20: Ur-Priest

Requires Favored/Primary Contact, but that all fits within the feats you can get (and you can still have spares if you take flaws). Gets 9th level divine spells a little earlier and gets 2/day Supernatural Spell.

Quick question: for beholder mage, and ur-priest, both get advanced past an effective level of 10 in this build (Beholder Mage: 2 Beholder mage + 2 Tainted scholar + 5 mystic theurge + 3 dweomerkeeper = casts as a 12th level Beholder mage, for example). Do the additional advancing levels merely increase caster level, or does something else happen?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-04, 06:09 PM
Ambiguities come into play in this build, but I think the goal is to make something RAW legal that isn't a blatant travesty of grammar exploitation.

Pretty much, yeah. The ambiguities are mostly to do with PaO, which is poorly defined to start with.


I don't know the details of this, but I presume it violates the enterance restriction on red wizard. Red wizard is a prestige class, not a base class, so it's slightly different than a paragon class, but in accordance with the rules found in the complete series, you would lose your red wizard class features, but keep things like hit die, bab, and saves. You would also no longer be able to advance the class.

This situation is a little different. First off, you don't lose existing benefits from the paragon class, since in this regard, the specific rules for paragon classes override the general rule for advancing classes.

Red Wizard requires you to be a Human from Thay. But yes, I agree here.


I don't know what you're saying here, or how it's relevant to the build.

I believe it's an attempt at "this is more powerful without any complicated tricks!".

Which I hope you'll agree is utterly ludicrous.


That's not how 3.0-3.5 works, according to WOTC. If it was reprinted, the newer printing is the correct one. If it was errataed, use the errataed variant. If neither have happened, use the 3.0 source as is with 3.5.

And in support of this, Heroes of Horror references Book of Vile Darkness for Vile Feats and Corrupt Spells (it updates a couple of them, but lists it as "here's where you can find more").


No, no...we weren't flaming each other. We were having an interesting debate over some points of the build. I like some of his tricks, and think the build is interesting overall...I just disagree on some of the finer points. Ditto for other posters, from what I can tell. On complex builds, this is pretty normal.

Most certainly, I wasn't considering it a flamewar either. Thanks for the compliments.


Quick question: for beholder mage, and ur-priest, both get advanced past an effective level of 10 in this build (Beholder Mage: 2 Beholder mage + 2 Tainted scholar + 5 mystic theurge + 3 dweomerkeeper = casts as a 12th level Beholder mage, for example). Do the additional advancing levels merely increase caster level, or does something else happen?

Just advanced caster level, yeah. I honestly couldn't think of anything to do with the levels near the end besides picking up levels of Dweomerkeeper and Rebuke Undead from Ur-Priest. Come to think of it, I shouldn't have advanced Ur-Priest past 10 (it's a waste since you can get CL for UP by advancing Beholder Mage). I'll edit.