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View Full Version : [3.5]The Acrobat (Campaign Class, Peach)



Drakevarg
2010-02-03, 12:09 AM
Part 2 of 4 of my Base Classes for my custom campaign series, unlike the admittedly bland Warrior I personally would be willing to follow this class straight to level 20.

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ACROBAT
Hit Dice: d6

Class Skills
-Balance (DEX)
-Climb (STR)
-Escape Artist (DEX)
-Hide (DEX)
-Jump (STR)
-Move Silently (DEX)
-Swim (STR)
-Tumble (DEX)
Skill Points: 4

Class Features
Proficiencies:
-All Simple Weapons
-Armor: Light
Fast Movement: An Acrobat's land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the Acrobat's speed because of any load carried or armor worn. For example, a Human Acrobat has a speed of 40 feet, rather than 30 feet, when wearing light or no armor. When wearing medium armor or carrying a medium load, his speed drops to 30 feet.
Run: At 2nd level, an Acrobat receives Run as a bonus feat.
Evasion: At 3rd level and higher, an Acrobat can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If they make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, they instead take no damage. Evasion can only be used if the Acrobat is wearing light or no armor. A helpless Acrobat does not gain the benefit of Evasion.
Slow Fall: At 4th level or higher, an Acrobat within arm's reach of a wall can use it to slow their descent. When first using this ability, they take damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The Acrobat's ability to slow their fall improves with their Acrobat level until at 20th level they can use a nearby wall to slow their descent and fall any distance without harm.
Uncanny Dodge: Starting at 5th level, an Acrobat can react to danger before their senses would normally allow them to do so. They retain their Dexterity Bonus to AC even if they are caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, they still lose their Dexterity Bonus to AC if immobilized.
Le Parkour: At 7th level, an Acrobat becomes particularly adept at climbing. From now on they take no penalty to climb at half their land speed, and only take a -5 penalty to climb at full speed. The Acrobat now also only needs a 10 foot running start on Jump checks, as opposed to the usual 20.
Improved Uncanny Dodge: An Acrobat of 9th level or higher can no longer be flanked; they can react to opponents on opposite sides of them as easily as they can react to a single opponent. This defense denies an Assassin the ability to sneak attack the Acrobat by flanking them, unless the attacker has at least four more Assassin levels than the target has Acrobat levels.
Improved Evasion: After 11th level, an Acrobat's Evasion is replaced by Improved Evasion. This ability works like Evasion, except that while the Acrobat still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks that normally deal half damage on a successful save, henceforth they only take half damage on a failed save. A helpless Acrobat does not gain the benefit of Improved Evasion.
Le Parkour Expert: After 13th level, traversing vertical surfaces is second nature for an Acrobat. Henceforth the Acrobat takes no penalty for climbing at full speed. The Acrobat can also make Jump checks from a standing position with no penalty.
Freedom of Movement: After 15th level, an Acrobat is treated as if constantly under the effect of freedom of movement, as the spell.
Trackless Step: After 17th level, an Acrobat leaves no trail and cannot be tracked. They may choose to leave a trail if so desired.
Spider Climb: After 19th level an Acrobat is such an adept climber that she can climb sheer surfaces and even ceilings with ease, as if under the effects of the spider climb spell.

The Acrobat
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|+0|+0|+2|+0|Fast Movement
2nd|+1|+0|+3|+0|Run
3rd|+2|+1|+3|+1|Evasion
4th|+3|+1|+4|+1|Slow Fall 20 ft.
5th|+3|+1|+4|+1|Uncanny Dodge
6th|+4|+2|+5|+2|Slow Fall 30 ft.
7th|+5|+2|+5|+2|Le Parkour
8th|+6/+1|+2|+6|+2|Slow Fall 40 ft.
9th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+3|Improved Uncanny Dodge
10th|+7/+2|+3|+7|+3|Slow Fall 50 ft.
11th|+8/+3|+3|+7|+3|Improved Evasion
12th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+4|Slow Fall 60 ft.
13th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+4|Le Parkour Expert
14th|+10/+5|+4|+9|+4|Slow Fall 70 ft.
15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+9|+5|Freedom of Movement
16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|Slow Fall 80 ft.
17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|Trackless Step
18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+6|Slow Fall 90 ft.
19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|Spider Climb
20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+6|Slow Fall Any Distance[/table]

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And now to bed; later!

Zexion
2010-02-03, 12:15 AM
Nice. I like the ability Spider Climb, although the abilities that you get in the class are very spread out, but the abilities are far from equal. Might want to work on that.

Drakevarg
2010-02-03, 12:21 AM
Well, I mostly spread 'em out to avoid empty levels. As for the power level of each ability, I wasn't quite sure what to put where. Any suggestions?

Zexion
2010-02-03, 12:24 AM
Maybe some sort of Balance-oriented thing AC thing. Or maybe the ability to take a standard action to to an acrobatic strike that does 3d4 bludgeon damage?

Drakevarg
2010-02-03, 12:27 AM
Hrm. I'll sleep on it, see what I can come up with...

Drakevarg
2010-02-03, 04:55 PM
Idea I came up with;

Death From Above: Any time the Acrobat is falling directly overhead an opponent, they may make a single melee attack on that target. If the attack hits, the Acrobat use the opponent to break their fall, replacing their Strength Modifier to damage with half the damage the Acrobat would otherwise recieve from the fall. The Acrobat still receives the other half of the damage. If the attack misses the Acrobat takes all of the falling damage.

EDIT: Forgot proficiencies. Silly me!

imp_fireball
2010-02-07, 03:20 AM
Here's an idea: Prince of Persia inspired stuff (the new nintendo one, not the kitschey PC old)! What class is the prince of persia anyway?

I originally just gave the prince a bunch of (ex) abilities to reflect his game stuff and then just threw in some fighter levels. I'd be very happy if you went in this direction. :smallbiggrin:

Right now, the class doesn't really seem to serve any roll besides showing off and moving around.

Thus, a player would have to get most of their non-defense combat stuff from something like UMD (which isn't a class skill! Arrrg!), race, funky equipment (which depends on luck and nice GMs), and multi-classing (I understand spider climb is something everyone wants, but if its a painful road to get there, then lots of people will be multi-classing; this is different since most people whine about dipping being a bad thing; obviously not the case here).

Here's a few ideas to get you started:
- Make them a martial initiator to a minor degree. Since they don't have full BAB progression, it's nothing serious like sword sage. Maybe 1/2 initiator level progression (gain an 'initiator level' every 2 levels of acrobat). Give them access to a few home brew disciplines on this board focusing on mobility and such.
- Give it a more unique name. There's already 'thief acrobat' from Complete Adventurer.
- Don't take the easy route and give them sneak attack or 'hunters strike/eldritch blast, etc.'. I call this the easy route because all it is an extra ability, ranged/melee that either applies additional die damage to an attack, or is an attack of its own and done (it's an attack that does damage under this condition!).
- Some abilities that allow you to run really fast (like REALLY fast... not run x10, but like fast movement but major bonus to move speed) or tumble really fast, etc. (apply that with 'Le Parkour' and you get the picture).

Temotei
2010-02-07, 03:36 AM
The acrobat's honestly going to have some troubles in the early levels with only fast movement and Run.

Why not start the slow fall progression at level 2?

The class lacks offensive capabilities other than what they can get from weapons and the like. To make matters worse, they don't get Use Magic Device.

Drakevarg
2010-02-07, 04:35 AM
Here's an idea: Prince of Persia inspired stuff (the new nintendo one, not the kitschey PC old)! What class is the prince of persia anyway?

I originally just gave the prince a bunch of (ex) abilities to reflect his game stuff and then just threw in some fighter levels. I'd be very happy if you went in this direction. :smallbiggrin:

Right now, the class doesn't really seem to serve any roll besides showing off and moving around.

Thus, a player would have to get most of their non-defense combat stuff from something like UMD (which isn't a class skill! Arrrg!), race, funky equipment (which depends on luck and nice GMs), and multi-classing (I understand spider climb is something everyone wants, but if its a painful road to get there, then lots of people will be multi-classing; this is different since most people whine about dipping being a bad thing; obviously not the case here).

Here's a few ideas to get you started:
- Make them a martial initiator to a minor degree. Since they don't have full BAB progression, it's nothing serious like sword sage. Maybe 1/2 initiator level progression (gain an 'initiator level' every 2 levels of acrobat). Give them access to a few home brew disciplines on this board focusing on mobility and such.
- Give it a more unique name. There's already 'thief acrobat' from Complete Adventurer.
- Don't take the easy route and give them sneak attack or 'hunters strike/eldritch blast, etc.'. I call this the easy route because all it is an extra ability, ranged/melee that either applies additional die damage to an attack, or is an attack of its own and done (it's an attack that does damage under this condition!).

I didn't give him UMD because in the campaigns I run I don't even use UMD for two reasons; For one, you can't "fake it" and pretend to be another race or whatever. For two, once you figure out what the magic wand or whatever's equivalent of the "on" button is, it just works. Trial and error is how you're gonna have to figure that one out, either that or a Spellcraft check or an instruction manual.

I didn't give him sneak attack because it makes no sense flavor-wise; the Acrobat is essentially a free-runner. Not a combat class, a class designed to get pretty much anywhere they feel like. And I don't use multiclassing penalties; indeed this class is DESIGNED to be multiclassed from. In the campaign setting its used in, the standard classes don't exist. You get the four base classes (warrior, acrobat, magi and cleric) then you go into a focus class (too many to name) which gives you specialized talents based on fantasy archetypes (for the acrobat, that'd be the assassin, who's a stealth killer; the thief, whose designed to get in anywhere without being seen; and the hunter, who is designed to track down their targets) before finally moving on to the plot-specific prestige classes.

So yes, dipping is exactly the point in this case. Full progression is certaintly possible and gives you some fun stuff, but you'll be a one-trick pony. (Though truth be told when your one trick is "screw gravity", that's a pretty cool trick.)

@Temotei; I am aware that this is not a very good combat class. It's not supposed to be. This is the guy who stunt-doubles his way past the death corridor and pulls the lever on the other end. He's the guy who scrambles up the cliff and sets up the ropes for the others. He's the guy who gets you where you need to go; once you're there it's the warrior's turn to be useful.

As for the slow fall, I gave it to him at lvl 4 because that's what the monk did, more or less. I could put Death From Above at level 2 alongside or in place of Run, perhaps.

Vaynor
2010-02-07, 04:46 AM
This class is extremely underpowered. They get pretty much no combat utility, 3/4 BAB, and the abilities are underpowered and far too spread out. Basically what you get is a guy with fast movement, the ability to run up walls, slow fall, and evasion/dodge abilities. I'd like to see a lot more legendary acrobatic feats and a lot more offensive combat abilities for this class to be usable. They even gain their Evasion/Uncanny dodge progressions slower than most classes. Getting an additional 10 ft. to your slow fall is NOT all you should get for a class level, ever. Put the slow fall in a separate column and give the class some real abilities.

This class's main abilities can be completely negated by a level 2 spell, and a level 1 spell (spider climb and feather fall respectively). Not worthy of a class.

imp_fireball
2010-02-07, 05:18 AM
the Acrobat is essentially a free-runner. Not a combat class, a class designed to get pretty much anywhere they feel like.

Alright, seriously, I'm terrible at convincing people but I'll say this.

Instead of just repeating stuff you obviously won't like like a robot, I'll just say that that's not what people want in D&D. You can't have a class that specializes in getting anywhere they want. Why go for spider climb at such a high level when a wizard can just cast it much earlier? Also, why specialize in mobility, when teleporting is just one of the things a wizard can do?

The wizard is a very old argument - the wizard can do everything because the wizard is batman. The only class that should technically exist at all is the wizard, and then re-fluffed.

But I'm like you though - I think refluffing is lame.

There's other people like me too. People that try to do things like fix the fighter - most of the time this results in one arbitrary defense against magic one way or another (and then the wizard pulls another trick out of its infinite sleeves).

Then there's new ways of doing D&D - or at least slightly different ways. People come up with different systems (I see at least one new system conceptualization on nearly every thread in homebrew).

My approach is to add to D&D - that way there's less of picking and choosing between a system. Also, the system won't get discarded quickly, and you don't have to wait for it to become popular (or force people to create their own entirely new systems in order to have fresh fun - a lot of people fall into this void).

You can't have a class that only specializes in being 'cool' in a certain way, because arguably every class is like that in everyone's opinion, some way or another.

What I'm saying is, make people want to play the acrobat.

To be honest, I didn't read all of what you said. Just the part I quoted.

I know, I'm using lots of words to say very little. That's what happens when you lack the ability to wink :smallwink: and make people follow your advice (low charisma, pah).


indeed this class is DESIGNED to be multiclassed from.

Pfft... I created a talent system (although underdeveloped right now) to avoid ridiculous multiclassing. A lot of GMs may still go with multi-classing penalties, so if people decide to use your material that you created and can't convince the GMs otherwise...


So yes, dipping is exactly the point in this case.

In that case, it's better to take levels in fighter because then the bonus feats allow you to do the exact same things. Each feat is essentially a dip, particularly for this class, considering all its abilities are taken from the abilities of a jumble of existing classes in existing material.


I'd like to see a lot more legendary acrobatic feats

That's a good idea. Look at some of what are considered 'epic feats' by WotC and then try to translate them into class features for the acrobat.


and a lot more offensive combat abilities for this class to be usable.

Heck, you don't need to go offense even! There's lots of dancer types out there already (also, they're geared toward combat, which you already told me you don't like). I already gave you the maneuver idea.

The only other option was to go with a few unique (something rarely seen in D&D before) abilities (or use my prince of persia idea). Unless you can come up with something better (after sleeping on it, as you claim to be doing).

Drakevarg
2010-02-07, 05:59 AM
Instead of just repeating stuff you obviously won't like like a robot, I'll just say that that's not what people want in D&D. You can't have a class that specializes in getting anywhere they want. Why go for spider climb at such a high level when a wizard can just cast it much earlier? Also, why specialize in mobility, when teleporting is just one of the things a wizard can do?

The wizard is a very old argument - the wizard can do everything because the wizard is batman. The only class that should technically exist at all is the wizard, and then re-fluffed.

But I'm like you though - I think refluffing is lame.

There's other people like me too. People that try to do things like fix the fighter - most of the time this results in one arbitrary defense against magic one way or another (and then the wizard pulls another trick out of its infinite sleeves).

Thing is, what I'm doing here is basically retooling 3.5 as much as you possibly can while leaving it 3.5. (In the sense that the rules still work the same way; its just all the contents that have been replaced.) I don't need to worry about such things like "oh, the wizard can do that" because I'm ripping out the obnoxious wizard's goddamn innards and replacing it with something that ISN'T the universe's swiss army knife. The Magi - my arcane spellcaster class - is borderline a straight up blaster.

Sure, as I work on his spellbook I'll come up with creative things to do with its power, but for me magic isn't a "get out of the plot free" card. It's taking control of a raw energy and bending it to your will. You can't pick a lock with a torch. You just blow the door off it's hinges.

But this is a topic for when I get the Magi out; in the meantime, yeah. Next time I get my hands on my friend's copy of Complete Warrior and Complete Adventurer, I'll start adapting epic feats for this fellow to use.

As for the Prince of Persia recommendations; sadly I don't have Prince of Persia. I used to have Assassin's Creed, but the disc is so scratched it won't play for more than 15 minutes. But again, this class isn't focused on fighting; it's all about moving. I'm gonna take a look at the Duelist sometime tomorrow and see what toys it has, and try to come up with more ideas. Obviously I need more abilities to work with.

jpreem
2010-02-07, 06:19 AM
The bmx bandit had also some amazing acrobatic abilities :smallbiggrin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw

Actually Im a fan of skillzy characters myself, and if you lack too many annouying "angel summoners" in your games someone like The Acrobat would do really fine.

Drakevarg
2010-02-07, 07:09 AM
Improved the Le Parkour ability; now reduces the running requirements to Jump checks as well.

Temotei
2010-02-07, 12:53 PM
Ground Pound
You can smash the ground so hard it leaves a crater large enough for you to walk through comfortably.
Prerequisites: Str 17, Power Attack
Benefits: You may use Power Attack against the ground to create a crater the size of your body + 5 feet by 5 feet. The force required, however, often puts you off balance. When you use this feat, roll d%. If the result is equal to or lower than 10, you put yourself off balance when swinging, still creating a crater, only you fall into it right away. If charging while using this feat, you can create a crater twice the size of your normal crater, but you also have an additional 10% chance of falling in right away.
Special: A fighter may select Ground Pound as one of their fighter bonus feats. This feat only applies to weapons that deal bludgeoning damage (including those that deal multiple types of damage) and unarmed strikes.

Meteor Hammer
Your ability to create craters in the ground has expanded to work on foes, and the overall effectiveness of your ground pounding is increased.
Prerequisites: Str 19, Power Attack, Ground Pound
Benefits: You may use Power Attack against the ground to create a crater the size of your body + 25 feet by 25 feet. The force of the impact is so powerful so as to cause damage to nearby enemies as well. Anything (except the Meteor Hammer-user) within 15 feet take damage equal to 5d6 + Str modifier. A successful Reflex save of DC 15 + Str modifier halves this damage. If charging while using this feat, you can create a crater twice the size of your normal crater, and the range of the damage inflicted is doubled. Alternatively, you can focus the force when smashing the ground during a charge into a wave, making the damage affect anything in a 60-foot cone in front of you.
Special: A fighter may select Ground Pound as one of their fighter bonus feats. This feat only applies to weapons that deal bludgeoning damage (including those that deal multiple types of damage) and unarmed strikes.

Adapt these to a more acrobatic style requiring Dexterity, and you've got some crazy stunts that can be used in combat. Perhaps instead of Power Attack, you can require a Jump check--the higher the result, the bigger the crater and the bigger the damage.

CTLC
2010-02-07, 01:18 PM
even the runner can either pepper people with ranged, or rush in, trip with a sliding kick, and coup de grace ne?

Debihuman
2010-02-09, 01:58 AM
Slow Fall: At 4th level or higher, an Acrobat within arm's reach of a wall can use it to slow their descent. When first using this ability, they take damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The Acrobat's ability to slow their fall improves with their Acrobat level until at 20th level they can use a nearby wall to slow their descent and fall any distance without harm.

Frankly, the progression for this is too slow. It's wasted when there are rings of feather falling available at a cost of only 2,200 gp.

Debby

Temotei
2010-02-09, 02:37 AM
Frankly, the progression for this is too slow. It's wasted when there are rings of feather falling available at a cost of only 2,200 gp.

Debby

That and there's nothing this class can do in combat.

Flippy kicky moves would be sweet, but nothing of the sort is in the class. I'd feel cheated to get slow fall at a level...and that's it.

Getting a drop kick-like move with sneak attack-like progression wouldn't be a bad idea.

Just saying...I wouldn't want to play this class in anything but a puzzle/roleplaying game. If the game had any hack and slash, I'd feel cheated as the rest of the group gets all these special abilities (mage -- blasting; fighter -- feats). Whoo! I can...climb walls. :smallannoyed:

Add in some skill tricks if you can as well. They would fit well in this class.

imp_fireball
2010-02-09, 10:25 AM
Guys, if you want the class to suit your needs - rewrite it yourself. The OP obviously doesn't want your advice.

Debihuman
2010-02-09, 12:51 PM
The OP asked for advice when he wrote the title of this thread Peach (i.e. (Please edit and critique honestly). He probably realizes the flaws in this class now. Maybe he'll come up with something better in the future.

Debby

Draz74
2010-02-09, 02:50 PM
Meh, I just don't think he's intending to use this class in the same sort of campaign that everyone tends to assume by default. This class seems to be for a very combat-light campaign, where the fact that it's useless in combat won't matter much.

Drakevarg
2010-02-09, 03:28 PM
Guys, if you want the class to suit your needs - rewrite it yourself. The OP obviously doesn't want your advice.

It's not so much "I don't want help" as it is "I'm responding to the help very slowly" and "I want to keep the original concept intact."

imp_fireball
2010-02-10, 02:31 AM
The OP asked for advice when he wrote the title of this thread Peach (i.e. (Please edit and critique honestly). He probably realizes the flaws in this class now. Maybe he'll come up with something better in the future.

Debby

Don't assume someone realizes something when you tell them what's wrong and they think you're wrong.

imp_fireball
2010-02-10, 02:34 AM
It's not so much "I don't want help" as it is "I'm responding to the help very slowly" and "I want to keep the original concept intact."

Looks like you're trying to come up with an entirely new system. At least introduce some reason why people should continue this class all the way to 20 (I'm assuming all the other classes are similar though, filling one very specific niche, etc.; though maybe you should link to those too?).

If you really wanna focus on mobility for the acrobat, why not include things like say, the ability to tumble at full speed without penalty (and up sheer surfaces; maybe stand up from prone as an immediate action with an easier tumble DC than what is core), the ability to move through small spaces, walls and terrain without limit, walk on water, double jump, etc.? If you wanna focus on one specific thing, you may as well take it to extremes.

If you want, include items that the acrobat is specifically proficient in - like the wing-suit, which allows them to glide at great speed (average maneuverability; like flight but cannot elevate, but can stay aloft for quite a while though).

Temotei
2010-02-10, 02:37 AM
Don't assume someone realizes something when you tell them what's wrong and they think you're wrong.

PEACH is up there for a reason. :smallamused:


It's not so much "I don't want help" as it is "I'm responding to the help very slowly" and "I want to keep the original concept intact."

You can easily keep the same concept intact with a special "moves" section, allowing the acrobat to pick one for each level. That would spice it up quite a bit, allowing customization and balance without getting too complicated.

imp_fireball
2010-02-10, 02:42 AM
You can easily keep the same concept intact with a special "moves" section, allowing the acrobat to pick one for each level. That would spice it up quite a bit, allowing customization and balance without getting too complicated.

Maybe a street fighter theme?

One of the PRCs could be the 'ki-master' who, when ascending to epic is a paragon of DBZ wannabes. Earlier than that, they're like Ryu, with good melee damage and decent ranged spell likes (ki blast, etc.). One of the base classes could be acrobat.

If your intention is to make characters that are less than typical high fantasy heros (maybe the leveling up method takes them from underdogs to heros like in d20 modern?), you could also include a commoner - the commoner would have a lower level limit (down to 5) but have a few unique abilities (ie. local connections, the ability to perform back breaking labor without exhaustion from working on a farm, etc.) that might compare to the first 5 levels of the other base classes. This could be the same for the other NPC classes, with maybe the exclusion of warrior (since you've already got a class called warrior I believe) and expert (if you're planning a skill monkey base class), and possibly adept (if you want a dabbling shaman guy).

Temotei
2010-02-10, 02:47 AM
Hadouken!

But seriously. There are some cool things you could include in the class.

How about an ability to wall jump early on? It would act like spider climb, but you need to have two walls, and you need to make a Jump/Climb check for every thirty feet (or something).

Being able to use Tumble to make enemies flat-footed would be cool. I think that's a skill trick, actually.

Allow them to run on water for some period of time, like the Stormwrack variant on the monk, but instead allowing both slow fall and this ability.

Draz74
2010-02-10, 02:57 AM
Just a random note about Slow Fall: I find it incredibly annoying to progress Slow Fall 1d6 at a time, level after level after level. It feels like a cop-out way to avoid giving a class a Dead Level.

I'd much rather have Slow Fall progress in just two steps: Half Damage (available at low levels) and Zero Damage (available at high levels). The Half Damage version would be applied before you reduced damage using Jump or Tumble, so at mid-levels the character is still able to drop increasing distances without (probably) taking any damage at all.

Alleine
2010-02-10, 03:02 AM
Monk ACF's would actually be a really great idea IMHO. The ones from Dungeonscape would be especially appropriate. Wall walking and standing longjumps are very much in the theme of parkour.

Drakevarg
2010-02-10, 09:31 PM
I've spent the last few days contemplating what to do to fix this class. This is my conclusion. (http://tootiredtomakename.deviantart.com/art/Error-404-Sanity-Not-Found-152212359)

Ultimately, I find so many things wrong with the way 3.5 works and the mindset that comes with it that attempting to fix ANYTHING demands a complete overhaul of the system. Which I have considered doing. However, it's an insanely huge project to work on and I have my own fantasy writing to focus on.

And since my own campaign ideas hinge entirely on the universe working the way I want them to, I'm basically giving up homebrewing and DMing (but not playing, hell no!) until further notice. Maybe I'll get something done for a change...

imp_fireball
2010-02-11, 03:08 AM
I've spent the last few days contemplating what to do to fix this class. This is my conclusion. (http://tootiredtomakename.deviantart.com/art/Error-404-Sanity-Not-Found-152212359)

Ultimately, I find so many things wrong with the way 3.5 works and the mindset that comes with it that attempting to fix ANYTHING demands a complete overhaul of the system. Which I have considered doing. However, it's an insanely huge project to work on and I have my own fantasy writing to focus on.

And since my own campaign ideas hinge entirely on the universe working the way I want them to, I'm basically giving up homebrewing and DMing (but not playing, hell no!) until further notice. Maybe I'll get something done for a change...

Y'know, we have been giving you suggestions (or at least I have) to make it work the way you want it to.

You want the acrobat to focus on mobility, give him more mobility than what you gave him. It's really that easy.

Drakevarg
2010-02-11, 07:56 AM
It's not limited to this class. Could I fix this class? Yes, almost definately.

It's when I realize that I've also got the entire list of base classes to fix, the entire spellbook to fix, and half the monster manual to fix that I realize that my workload is simply too big to be bothered with.

I'm so obsessed with things working the way I want them to that literally the only tolerable solution would be a complete overhaul of the entire damned system, and quite frankly I have better things to do with my time.

Debihuman
2010-02-11, 08:24 AM
Wow, that's a lot of "fixing." I've not had that much trouble with how things work in this game. What is it in the game that doesn't work for you?

I wouldn't mind helping out, but I don't quite understand the basis of your objections. There might be a much easier way around this to get exactly what you want without a lot of time and energy being wasted.

Here are two examples of my house rules:

1. I've completed removed the confirmation of critical hits. You roll a critical and you're done. As a DM, I move on. It speeds up the game and makes rolling that natural 20 a lot more exciting.

2. I grant every PC max hit points at first level. Again, this speeds things a long as nobody gets stuck with having only one hit point. The PCs are supposed to be heroes after all.

Most DMs make some adjustment to the rules to suit their needs. However, they generally don't have to overhaul the whole system to get there.

Debby

Drakevarg
2010-02-11, 08:33 AM
It's 90% fluff issues, 10% "this class feature is stupid" issues.

I don't like "music = magic!" so I don't like bards. I don't like wire-fu, so I don't like monks. I don't like "magic is a cosmic swiss army knife" so I need to re-write the spellbook. The outsiders, undead, and dragons in the Monster Manual all mesh terribly with my campaign settings, so I need to remake them. Theres other stuff that doesn't mesh, either, but those can easily be solved by "don't use them."

Then you throw in dozens of complaints of one class feature or another that I don't bother to keep track of. Or some way combat works that I don't like. Or something.

It's an overhaul job that would easily warrant a new edition. And really too much work for one guy with other priorities to work on.

Temotei
2010-02-11, 04:42 PM
Oh, come now. Bae'queshel is absolutely awesome, and one of the few reasons to play an evil bard. :smallcool:

Remaking monsters wouldn't be that hard. Just go on the Request a Homebrew thread and ask for one at a time, or make a template to apply to undead, dragons, and outsiders to make them more fitting for your setting.

Your monk problem is simply preference, but this class seems similar to the monk...but powered down.

Spells do need to be reworked if you find them too powerful. Or just ban certain classes, only allowing warmage, warlock, etc.

Drakevarg
2010-02-11, 04:57 PM
You are VASTLY underestimating how anal-retentive I am about everything being JUST so.

And this class wasn't intended to be even remotely monk-like. It was intended to be more like Mirror's Edge or somesuch. Or Assassin's Creed minus the kidney-stabbing.

When I say "I hate the ways spells work" I mean "I dislike literally every spell that doesn't directly involve setting someone on fire."

Simply adding a template wouldn't work. My campaign settings would require templates that removed EVERY SINGLE FEATURE from the old monsters and put in new ones. At which point there's no difference between the templated old and a straigh fresh one.

When I say that in order to be satisfied I would need to make a new d20 system, I'm not exaggerating. I'm just not cut out for homebrewing because I can never just tweak one thing. If I'm going to fix one thing, I need to toss everything in the blender and make it from scratch. A good example would be the fantasy setting I use for writing. When I first made it, it was a DnD setting.

Now it's so unrelated to DnD that it would be pretty much impossible to create it using gaming mechanics of any sort. So yeah, me + homebrewing = completely abandoning the homebrewing in order to make some absurdly large worldbuilding project that turns into my life's work.

I'm already doing it once, I DON'T need two fantasy universes to flesh out in their entirety. And I'm pretty much incapable of not doing that. So I have to sit down and be a PC, so I don't have control of the threads of existance.

Temotei
2010-02-11, 09:37 PM
And this class wasn't intended to be even remotely monk-like. It was intended to be more like Mirror's Edge or somesuch. Or Assassin's Creed minus the kidney-stabbing.

When I say "I hate the ways spells work" I mean "I dislike literally every spell that doesn't directly involve setting someone on fire."

Mirror's Edge had the girl that can punch people and take their guns easily. This class can't do anything combat-related.

Warmage is basically that, except for light and such spells. Poor light. It gets no love.

Drakevarg
2010-02-11, 09:47 PM
Punching people does not require fancy skills. It requires hands, which can then be balled into fists and applied to faces.

Suprisingly enough, Acrobats posess fists. However, their job isn't punching people. It's getting the hell away from the people.

As I have mentioned a number of times here, if I were to bother with working on this anymore (which I won't) it would be DESIGNED TO CROSS CLASS FROM. The thief (stealth), assassin (backstabbing) and hunter (tracking) would all be taken as focus classes after starting out as an acrobat. If you decide to take 20 levels of a class with no function beyond "go places," that's really not my fault.

I'm not saying this to deny suggestions, (I actually had several ideas in mind before deciding to throw my hands up and do something productive with my time) I'm saying it to defend the concept at its core.

Temotei
2010-02-11, 09:58 PM
Punching people does not require fancy skills. It requires hands, which can then be balled into fists and applied to faces.

Suprisingly enough, Acrobats posess fists. However, their job isn't punching people. It's getting the hell away from the people.

Sarcasm. Hm. Okay then. The gal at least seemed to have Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Disarm, along with Toughness and Improved Toughness (maybe). Roofwalker is another option, as well as Run. True, you can replicate all that with feats...but it's still boring. Just saying. Most people who play a game don't want to say, "Oh my! A CR 3 Allip! Ruuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!" "You're level 12..." "Yeah, but I don't have anything to beat it. I escape with great alacrity." "Okay...no XP."


As I have mentioned a number of times here, if I were to bother with working on this anymore (which I won't) it would be DESIGNED TO CROSS CLASS FROM. The thief (stealth), assassin (backstabbing) and hunter (tracking) would all be taken as focus classes after starting out as an acrobat. If you decide to take 20 levels of a class with no function beyond "go places," that's really not my fault.

I'm not saying this to deny suggestions, (I actually had several ideas in mind before deciding to throw my hands up and do something productive with my time) I'm saying it to defend the concept at its core.

Why create a base class if it's not meant to be taken for twenty levels? Make a prestige class.

Drakevarg
2010-02-11, 10:04 PM
Sarcasm. Hm. Okay then. The gal at least seemed to have Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Disarm, along with Toughness and Improved Toughness (maybe). Roofwalker is another option, as well as Run. True, you can replicate all that with feats...but it's still boring. Just saying. Most people who play a game don't want to say, "Oh my! A CR 3 Allip! Ruuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!" "You're level 12..." "Yeah, but I don't have anything to beat it. I escape with great alacrity." "Okay...no XP."

Probably. And I might have considered it if I was actually still working on it.


Why create a base class if it's not meant to be taken for twenty levels? Make a prestige class.

Because I'm a cruel overlord who likes to see the players suffer.

Starting with a base class is compulsory. So you have the 4 base classes; guy who stabs things, guy who goes places, guy who sets things on fire, and guy who heals you or summons mooks.

Then you get focus classes, which are actually interesting and useful. So why have the Acrobat? Because if you don't take it, you don't get instant death kidney stabs or the ability to disappear while people are staring right at you.

Come to think of it, maybe I'm not being sarcastic about the cruelty thing. *shrug* Just another reason not to DM anymore.

Debihuman
2010-02-12, 09:14 AM
You are VASTLY underestimating how anal-retentive I am about everything being JUST so.

And this class wasn't intended to be even remotely monk-like. It was intended to be more like Mirror's Edge or somesuch. Or Assassin's Creed minus the kidney-stabbing.

When I say "I hate the ways spells work" I mean "I dislike literally every spell that doesn't directly involve setting someone on fire."

I have a serious question for you. Why are you playing D&D? You don't like the system at all.

Debby

Drakevarg
2010-02-12, 10:02 AM
Because I KNOW the system. I play DnD for one reason; I love to roleplay. And DnD is the roleplaying system I know. Not to mention I have a bunch of sourcebooks for it as it is and starting over with a new system would be too expensive and too much hassle.

Debihuman
2010-02-13, 11:24 AM
And reworking the entire system to suit your needs isn't a hassle?

Debby

Drakevarg
2010-02-15, 09:46 PM
Well, it's free, for one. Or at least it only costs my sanity.

And besides, I only feel the need to rework the entire system when I'm DMing. It's really hard to write a story when someone else decides what the world's rules are. And I can't simply take the tools given to me and "pretend" they work the way I want them to. It's like trying to reenact Star Wars with G.I. Joes. For me at least, the suspension of disbelief is too much to even tell the story.

imp_fireball
2010-02-16, 02:11 AM
Well, it's free, for one. Or at least it only costs my sanity.

And besides, I only feel the need to rework the entire system when I'm DMing. It's really hard to write a story when someone else decides what the world's rules are. And I can't simply take the tools given to me and "pretend" they work the way I want them to. It's like trying to reenact Star Wars with G.I. Joes. For me at least, the suspension of disbelief is too much to even tell the story.

I know what you mean - but thing is, you've got to give players more options for each class - this isn't because 'the rules of the world have to be this way', but because it gives the players more options.

Normally, in D&D a person with ranks in perform: acrobatics, can't also tumble - that's why the SRD rules that tumble is like using perform: acrobatics.

You're going to want to give players more of a reason to take this class all the way, otherwise you may as well shorten it down to something like 5 levels and then say 'you have to multiclass' (which you made pretty clear), as is what's usually done in d20 modern.


And this class wasn't intended to be even remotely monk-like. It was intended to be more like Mirror's Edge or somesuch. Or Assassin's Creed minus the kidney-stabbing.

I've already been given that idea. Particularly when you called one of the abilities 'Le Parkore'.


mply adding a template wouldn't work. My campaign settings would require templates that removed EVERY SINGLE FEATURE from the old monsters and put in new ones. At which point there's no difference between the templated old and a straigh fresh one.

Explain to me how that works.

I mean for fluff, take for example undead - D&D at its core settings rules that undead are innately evil and are powered by something called negative energy. If you wanted them powered by positive energy, than house rule the change in the undead type. If you wanted them to be of any alignment and not just evil (after all who defines that moving corpses are evil? humans? really, it's only probably because it grosses them out and they have religious revulsion to that sorta thing), then rule that say, clerics can turn or rebuke undead at will.

You could also completely remove the alignment system, which would take a little bit of work (reformat some of the spells like magic circle against evil, change around the cleric and paladin, remove class alignment restrictions which obviously isn't hard, etc.).

There's all sorts of other things that can be done to make this suit your setting. I understand that your intention isn't to create a new tabletop system (what's the point of that, unless your out to make money without violating OGL or whatever), but to completely work around D&D.

The only unfortunate thing though is that you still want to call it 3.5, and not just declare that it uses the d20 system, right?

So... balance the scales a bit. Among all things, the fluff is probably the least set in stone. Things like 'music = magic' are fluff - instead of removing the bard class, go for some non-music bard variants (although, I don't know if those exist; you might need to home brew something new that's still a well-rounded support class and somehow conserves the 'spirit of the bard' if that's what you're going for). The same goes for your other complaints.


along with Toughness and Improved Toughness (maybe)

It's actually endurance that allows you to run for a long time.


"Oh my! A CR 3 Allip! Ruuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!" "You're level 12..." "Yeah, but I don't have anything to beat it. I escape with great alacrity." "Okay...no XP."

Reminds me of Thief from FF1. He was most skilled in running the hell away. At least until he upgraded to ninja and got black magic (yep, spell slinging ninjas). :smallamused:


Starting with a base class is compulsory. So you have the 4 base classes; guy who stabs things, guy who goes places, guy who sets things on fire, and guy who heals you or summons mooks.

Just to let you know, base classes don't need 20 levels. You can go the d20 modern route, and give them only 10 levels and make them crap between then (although d20 modern did give the very slightly customizable talents for each class (note: not that customizable)).

Also note that some D20 Modern PRCs didn't make sense, ie. how can you be a celebrity if your reputation is abysmal? Isn't the technical definition of a celebrity to have high reputation? Why be a celebrity if you can just role play wealth/holly wood excess through having a decent charisma acquired from charismatic hero? :smalltongue:


By contrast, my setting (Artres) has two outer realms, four gods, magic that has basically four functions (burn, freeze, heal, or wound), the Fiend equivalents are ice themed, the Celestial equivalents are fire themed, there are only two elements (heat and cold) and only two breeds of dragons. (Also fire and ice.) The old alignment system also no longer has any function beyond fluff, and there is actually (gasp!) Good-aligned undead.

Again, all this means is that I basically have to homebrew my own Monster Manual, probably a few classes, and god knows what else. My current plans dictate 5 levels of Immortals (the group name for the yet-unnamed Fiend and Celestial equivalents), with ECLs of 0, 5, 10, 15, and 20. Dragons will have different age groups that function the same way. Undead will simply have ranks of "Mindless, Lesser, and Greater." Mindless being zombies and other powerless undead that you just throw at people, Lesser being leveled-creature things, and Greater being templates that gain full power instantly and keep their class leveles. My current thoughts on "breeds" of undead are Vampires (living turned into undead), the Frozen Ones, who are the "evil-aligned" undead, and the Burning Ones, who are the "good aligned" undead. Mindless undead are simply reanimated corpses and are Neutral-Aligned.

If you guys have any more advice, read that.

This is all still do-able peachin' while making everyone happy, I believe. :smallsmile:

EDIT: ECL 0? How does that work? I thought lowest was 1 (just a reminder, ECL is Monster HD + Character Level + Level Adjustment). 0 means no HD, meaning no HP - which makes no sense unless you wanna have some sort of 'weather spirit' elemental-like immortals. GMs also often rule that things like tornadoes don't have hit points (but things consisting of actual matter do; so the objects flying around in the tornado would have hp), so it'd make sense in that context.

Drakevarg
2010-02-16, 07:50 AM
ECL 0? How does that work? I thought lowest was 1 (just a reminder, ECL is Monster HD + Character Level + Level Adjustment). 0 means no HD, meaning no HP - which makes no sense unless you wanna have some sort of 'weather spirit' elemental-like immortals. GMs also often rule that things like tornadoes don't have hit points (but things consisting of actual matter do; so the objects flying around in the tornado would have hp), so it'd make sense in that context.

Humans don't have racial HD or Level Adjustment either. The ECL 0s would be like the base races; all of their HD, BAB, and Saves come from class levels. The RACE ITSELF has no level adjustment. However, they would always have at least one class level.

As a general rule I don't like to distinguish, statistically, any difference between "Monster", "NPC", and "PC." Just because one of them chose "Rust Monster" as their race doesn't mean they don't have the same list of options open to them. (Except where thinking and using hands are involved, naturally.)

Anywho, I don't have time to respond to your other points right now, so I'll get back to you.

imp_fireball
2010-02-18, 07:56 AM
CATSPAWS
These low boots are made of soft, supple
leather, usually gray or tawny colored.
While worn they grant their wearer a +10
circumstance bonus to any attempt to Move
Silently. Additionally, it acts exactly like a
feather fall spell activated immediately if
the wearer falls more than 3 feet.
Caster Level: 5th
Prerequisites: Enchant Wondrous Item,
cat’s grace, feather fall
Market Price: 6,200 gp
Weight: 1 lb.

That's a magic item from third edition. Pretty much gives everything the acrobat offers short of spider climb, and climbing in general - but with added stealth.

Here's one I just made up:

WINGSUIT

Essentially the same as 'catspaws' except that it is worn like a cloak, and instead of offering a bonus to move silently checks, it allows the user flight (average) in addition to feather fall while falling, with the following exceptions - the wearer cannot control elevation, however they can fly up to a rate equal to the speed of any wind storm traveling in a single direction without hindering maneuverability. Slowing down is impossible except by means of deploying the regular secondary feather fall (caster level 5th) effect, which removes the flight (slows you down in a violent halting fashion (in combat it dazes you for 1 round) until you are moving only vertically).

The feather fall affect is also permanent, as long as there is air to move through (moving through water or vacuum won't work).

In Short: Wearer can glide to the ground at very fast speeds (like 400ft. + per round), if the weather is right. Great for long range bombing runs.