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leden
2010-02-05, 07:30 AM
Hello! I'ma making a human warmage for a campaign and I wanted some advice from the folk at the playground. His stats are Str:15 Dex:14 Con:13 Int:18 Wis:10 Cha:16 but i guess i could move them around a bit. What I need the most help with is feat selection, I really have no clue as to what I could get. I can get two flaws if needed.

Thx In advance!

(Just for the record, I know a warmage is not that strong of a choice but we aren't really an optimized bunch)

EDIT: oops! Forgot to mention that I'm lvl 1 and that i probably won't go over lvl 5 =D

Sliver
2010-02-05, 07:36 AM
You might find some googling to be helpful.. I found This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67335) that might help you.. (can't help myself really..)

KellKheraptis
2010-02-05, 07:48 AM
Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/Prestige Paladin 4/Incantatrix 4

Was my old Warmage Batman build, simple, elegant (as one can be hosing the system for the whole Sor/Wiz list), powerful. When I get back later today I'll see about digging up the revised one with Dragon Magic tech (gets Initiate of Mystra, Sword of the Arcane Order, Battle Blessing, and 20/20 casting).

Mongoose87
2010-02-05, 09:06 AM
For lower levels, you generally want to have a high Int, while that bonus damage is still useful.

Douglas
2010-02-05, 09:15 AM
Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/Prestige Paladin 4/Incantatrix 4
I'm pretty sure all of those PrCs have prerequisites that Warmage 1 doesn't satisfy. How are you getting around that?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-05, 09:17 AM
Thats an early entry trick, I am pretty sure it involves Versatile spellcaster and maybe sanctum spell

mregecko
2010-02-05, 09:18 AM
Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/Prestige Paladin 4/Incantatrix 4


I like the look of this build, but I are confused as to how you qualify for Rainbow Servant at level two, even with standard early-entry shenanigans (Krau Sigil, etc).

Also, are you using Sacred Exorcist as your divine casting class for Prestige Paladin?

Thx,
M

Curses, Ninja'd... But still curious.

Optimystik
2010-02-05, 09:35 AM
Rainbow Servant has very low skill requirements (Know Arcana 4) and that is usually the most difficult barrier to surpass for PrC qualification. The spell levels part is easy to get around.

Gnaeus
2010-02-05, 10:11 AM
What else is in your group? Do you know yet?

JeenLeen
2010-02-05, 10:21 AM
Warmages aren't great melee to your BAB growth, so I would recommend a reach weapon to maximize AoO opportunities and so that, when you must melee, you don't get right in the enemy's face. If you can, get Enlarge Person put on you as a buff to maximize this.

As I've seen it, warmage works best as a basic blaster. Although, to be honest, I could see multiclassing into a full BAB class. You'd have some magic for buffs or blasting, as well as good attacking. I wouldn't recommend this for a high-level game, but if you don't plan to get past level 5, it sounds good to me.

PHBII, IIRC, has an alternative class feature for warmages that lets you grab a wizard spell that's not Evocation (or whatever schools your class feature lets you add to your spells known). You could get it for Grease or another utility spell, if that book is allowed.

Tar Palantir
2010-02-05, 10:57 AM
Versatile and either Sanctum Spell or Earth Spell qualifies you for Rainbow Servant at level 1 (3rd level casting).

Gnaeus
2010-02-05, 11:04 AM
But probably not in the low optimization game that OP describes.

Akal Saris
2010-02-05, 11:10 AM
Well, if you're only going levels 1-5, then Kell's hyper-optimized build is somewhat useless for you, since it doesn't really kick off until 11th+ after completing rainbow servant. In general blasting is suboptimal, but it sounds like you know that already. My own experience with a warmage was pretty frustrating because I had no real escape options, so try not to get grappled or surrounded so much :P

You pretty much want to avoid melee, since with a d6 HD, light armor, and wizard BAB you're not going to last long there (and I would switch your Str and Con if I were you).

Some feats to get you started on low-level blasting -
Sudden Widen: 1/day double numerical stuff for no LA, nice on the smaller AOE's
Invisible Spell: from Cityscape, +0 LA for your spell to deal damage but have no visible effects
Spell Focus (Evocation), Greater Spell Focus (Evocation)
Metamagic School Focus (Evocation): from C. Mage, reduces the cost of metamagic by 1 level 3/day for the school - good with Empower, for example
Piercing Evocation: from C. Mage, ignore first 10 points of energy resistance for evocation spells
Sudden Empower: 1/day empower for no LA, requires 1 metamagic feat
Sudden Maximize: same as the above, but maximized
Versatile Spellcaster: from Races of the Dragon, trade 2 lower-level spell slots for 1 higher level, so 2 cantrips for a magic missile

quiet1mi
2010-02-05, 11:19 AM
The main weakness of the warmage is that he is mainly good for combat, while his fellow spell casters have other utility ability.

So optimizing the Warmage could go 2 routes...

Making him better in COMBAT
Making him better in Utility


Combat is pretty easy so I am going to let someone else answer it... UTility there are a few things you can do...

Invisible Spell or City Spell allow you to effectively snipe at opponents because they do not know where that lightning bolt came from... (IMHO you keep your hide check with no penalty)

Fell Animate could be interesting at higher levels as you can flame boil some mooks and have the skeletons/zombies attack their former allies... more importantly those skeletons/zombies can do the following...

Provide Cover (+ 4 AC, +2 Ref)
Flank (+2 to hit and allows sneak attack)
Aid Another (+2 to Hit or AC)
Block Charging Lanes
Help with logistics by porting things.
Trigger Traps
defeats smaller opponents that would waste your actions...
Grapples... even if they are bad at it, they can still hold someone down by wasting their actions...

Three of those undead minions flanking and all passing the DC: Aid another leads to a +8 to hit for the party power attacker...

While a wall of minions all Aiding another provides an insane bonus to your AC...

Vizzerdrix
2010-02-05, 11:43 AM
Hmm... Can not Mage of the Arcane Order assist in adding versatility? Or even sandshaper?

faceroll
2010-02-05, 12:44 PM
There's really no reason to not go into rainbow servant at level 2. You will get a domain, which means a slightly bigger spell list.

There's a 3.0 template from Dragon, called magic blooded, that gives you +2 charisma -2 wisdom for +0 LA. This means you'll need a starting wisdom of 16 (lower if you can find a wis boosting item or have the cleric put owls wisdom on you) to be able to cast 4th level divine spells.

If LA buy off is in effect, pick up the draconic template. +2 str, +2 cha, and +2 con are the major draws, for only +1 LA.

Lesser Aasimar, from the back of Player's Guide to Faerun, has everything but the outsider type in common with the regular Aasimar, but with no LA. This means +2 cha & wis.

I wouldn't suggest these last 3 racial choices if your DM is going to get upset at your wanton powergaming.

Feats you will want:
Versatile Spellcaster means you can get 4th level spells in a game where you can only go up to 3rd.

Arcane Disciple will add 4 spells to your list. Choose wisely, and you can do some sweet stuff. Travel is an especially awesome domain. I would pick a domain with a lot of utility spells.

Sanctum Spell, besides letting you get into Rainbow Servant earlier, lets you cast some higher level utility spells from a specific location. This means you can potentially be casting teleport at level 6.

Knowledge Devotion gives you a small amount of static damage. Since you are already blasting and have a lot of intelligence, why not be a little more blasty? Make sure you have enough knowledge skills to make it worthwhile, though. Magic missile with knowledge devotion & warmage edge is actually a respectable amount of damage at those low levels, especially since it's unavoidable, and touch attacks tend to miss a lot when you're under level 10.

Combat Casting is typically maligned, but at levels 1-5, being threatened in melee and getting a 40% chance for your spell to fizzle is a big deal. Go skill focus: concentration if you really feel like you're going to be casting on a boat or a horse a lot.


Hmm... Can not Mage of the Arcane Order assist in adding versatility? Or even sandshaper?

They can, but he's unlikely to get to that level.

Gnaeus
2010-02-05, 12:51 PM
There's really no reason to not go into rainbow servant at level 2. You will get a domain, which means a slightly bigger spell list.

I wouldn't suggest these last 3 racial choices if your DM is going to get upset at your wanton powergaming.

There are a couple reasons. One is if your DM doesn't think that text over table Rainbow Servant is balanced and he uses the table version where you lose caster levels.

The other is if your DM feels that sanctum spell to enter a prestige class 4 levels below what is intended is, as you put it, wanton powergaming, and either forbids it altogether, or strips all your prestige class abilities the minute you set foot out of your sanctum.


Arcane Disciple will add 4 spells to your list. Choose wisely, and you can do some sweet stuff. Travel is an especially awesome domain. I would pick a domain with a lot of utility spells.

Knowledge Devotion gives you a small amount of static damage. Since you are already blasting and have a lot of intelligence, why not be a little more blasty? Make sure you have enough knowledge skills to make it worthwhile, though. Magic missile with knowledge devotion & warmage edge is actually a respectable amount of damage at those low levels, especially since it's unavoidable, and touch attacks tend to miss a lot when you're under level 10.

Arcane Disciple requires know: religion 4 ranks. Warmages get it cross class. So unless you are spending another feat to add it as a class skill, you don't meet requirements until 5, and can't take the feat until 6.

Knowledge devotion can't be taken until level 3, as it requires 5 ranks in a knowledge. Warmages only get Knowledge: Arcana and history in class, so a wide range of knowledges is unlikely at the levels he is looking at if he wants to have any other skills at all.

faceroll
2010-02-05, 12:58 PM
There are a couple reasons.

Well, yeah, but other than that, it's not like he's giving anything up, mechanically, to go into Rainbow Servant. And as long as the DM is changing things to fit his idea of what is balanced, then maybe Knowledge Devotion only works on one magic missile and Arcane Disciple doesn't add all the spells to the Warmage's spell list (he has to give up a known spell to add one) and maybe Versatile Spellcaster doesn't work that way without heighten spell or at all, for that matter.


Arcane Disciple requires know: religion 4 ranks. Warmages get it cross class. So unless you are spending another feat to add it as a class skill, you don't meet requirements until 5, and can't take the feat until 6.

Unless he either takes knowledge devotion and gets religion as a class skill, or he goes into rainbow servant, or does both.

Gnaeus
2010-02-05, 01:06 PM
Well, yeah, but other than that, it's not like he's giving anything up, mechanically, to go into Rainbow Servant. And as long as the DM is changing things to fit his idea of what is balanced, then maybe Knowledge Devotion only works on one magic missile and Arcane Disciple doesn't add all the spells to the Warmage's spell list (he has to give up a known spell to add one) and maybe Versatile Spellcaster doesn't work that way without heighten spell or at all, for that matter.

That isn't remotely the same thing. Allowing feats to do what they are supposed to and assuming that early entry shenanigans are legal aren't even close. If I were running a low optimization game and someone tried that cheese I would drop it in a heartbeat. They would be lucky if I didn't call them a cheater while I banned their character. It is only arguably RAW and clearly not RAI.


Unless he either takes knowledge devotion and gets religion as a class skill, or he goes into rainbow servant, or does both.

So, since you can't have knowledge devotion until level 3 because it requires 5 ranks in a skill, how does this help you qualify for Arcane Disciple before level 6 again?

faceroll
2010-02-05, 01:14 PM
That isn't remotely the same thing.

Well, I wouldn't know, having not had the chance to talk to his DM.


Allowing feats to do what they are supposed to

What is Versatile Spellcaster "supposed" to do? It seems like a way for sorcerers to use free metamagic, but then, I've never been a fan of Lit Crit, so I'd really not get into a discussion of author intentions. By strict RAW, you need heighten spell to make Versatile Spellcaster work with getting early spell level access.

Arcane Disciple also seems to be a way to burn a feat to get the option to add spells to your known spells, at a cost. The way the feat functions with classes like Dread Necro is an artifact. You know, as long as we're arguing intention and DM ruling, and table trumping text, and disqualifying early entry shens.


So, since you can't have knowledge devotion until level 3 because it requires 5 ranks in a skill, how does this help you qualify for Arcane Disciple before level 6 again?

Oh, my bad, I thought it had a lower requirement than that.

Why so hostile, bro? It's just the internet.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-02-05, 01:19 PM
That isn't remotely the same thing. Allowing feats to do what they are supposed to and assuming that early entry shenanigans are legal aren't even close. If I were running a low optimization game and someone tried that cheese I would drop it in a heartbeat. They would be lucky if I didn't call them a cheater while I banned their character. It is only arguably RAW and clearly not RAI.


Versatile Spellcaster works for early entry as per the FAQ.

Akal Saris
2010-02-05, 01:24 PM
I think part of the reason that you see so many cheesy attempts at early entry and whatnot in this thread is because the warmage is so far behind most optimized casters.

To be fair, I think this is a case where it probably won't be necessary considering that everyone is apparently playing something unoptimized. There just isn't much point to using versatile spellcaster, heighten spell, and sanctum spell to get 4th level spells at 3rd level if the other party members are playing a healbot cleric, fighter, and spellthief or whatever.

Gnaeus
2010-02-05, 01:30 PM
Versatile Spellcaster works for early entry as per the FAQ.

And we all know how authoritative that is, right?

Pun-Pun, Crusader infinite damage loops and kobolds getting 2 free sorcerer levels are all rules legal, probably more clearly than early entry tricks, but they don't see much play either, especially in what OP described as low optimization games. OP should be aware that some people regard that rule as somewhere between theoretical optimization and cheating. If he wants to try to argue it past his DM, thats up to him.


I think part of the reason that you see so many cheesy attempts at early entry and whatnot in this thread is because the warmage is so far behind most optimized casters.

To be fair, I think this is a case where it probably won't be necessary considering that everyone is apparently playing something unoptimized. There just isn't much point to using versatile spellcaster, heighten spell, and sanctum spell to get 4th level spells at 3rd level if the other party members are playing a healbot cleric, fighter, and spellthief or whatever.

Agreed. You see the exact same arguments come up with Mystic Theurge. I can't say the same for every DM, but I would be much more agreeable if someone came to me and said "what I want to play is broken weak, can we fix it?" than if they tried to slide something in as a loophole. As it happens, though, while Warmage is unoptimized, Text over Table RS is VERY powerful. If you allow it for Warmage, Sorcerer, Beguiler and Dread Necro sneak in the back door, to haunt you next game.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-02-05, 01:32 PM
And we all know how authoritative that is, right?

Not authoritative.

But it's a better look at RAI than what you have.

Gnaeus
2010-02-05, 01:46 PM
Not authoritative.

But it's a better look at RAI than what you have.

But not nearly as good as what his DM has. If he wants to follow your advice he can. Certainly there are many DMs who would let it slide, just as there are many who wouldn't. I can only speak for myself when I say that if someone tried it in my game they would lose a lot of credibility for the next time they tried to persuade me what an ambiguous rule should be. And if they argued the point with me, I would let them play it, then rule that sanctum spell only qualifies you for prestige classes while you are in your sanctum, and you lose your powers when you step outside the door just like a television pulled away from a wall plug.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-02-05, 01:49 PM
But not nearly as good as what his DM has.
Unless his DM works for WotC, the DM's grasp of RAI is not as good.



And if they argued the point with me, I would let them play it, then rule that sanctum spell only qualifies you for prestige classes while you are in your sanctum, and you lose your powers when you step outside the door just like a television pulled away from a wall plug.

Except... it doesn't work that way. At all. Prestige classes require you have the feat. He has the feat even outside of his sanctum.

This isn't a case of you making a call on an ambiguous ruling. It's a case of something else.

Douglas
2010-02-05, 01:53 PM
Except... it doesn't work that way. At all. Prestige classes require you have the feat. He has the feat even outside of his sanctum.
He's not talking about PrCs that require Sanctum Spell, he's talking about PrCs that require the ability to cast X level spells where you use Sanctum Spell to qualify early. A level 3 wizard with Sanctum Spell can, technically, cast 3rd level spells, but only when he's in his sanctum.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-02-05, 01:55 PM
He's not talking about PrCs that require Sanctum Spell, he's talking about PrCs that require the ability to cast X level spells where you use Sanctum Spell to qualify early. A level 3 wizard with Sanctum Spell can, technically, cast 3rd level spells, but only when he's in his sanctum.

Wait... by that logic, you'd also stop qualifying for prestige classes if you got Int drained or Enervated.

faceroll
2010-02-05, 01:55 PM
As it happens, though, while Warmage is unoptimized, Text over Table RS is VERY powerful. If you allow it for Warmage, Sorcerer, Beguiler and Dread Necro sneak in the back door, to haunt you next game.

RS for sorcerer isn't actually that great, since you still have to use spells known to learn cleric & domain spells, even for the capstone. Due to the peculiarity of spells known and spell list of DN, Beguiler, and Warmage, things like Arcane Disciple & the RS capstone are very powerful.

RS is actually pretty bad for DN, since you can't be evil, and DN has a lot of Evil spells, as it is thematically very close to being an evil class. DN also doesn't benefit as much from the capstone, since the DN spell list is mostly cleric spells, anyway.

Beguiler has to sacrifice a ton of skill points to take ten levels of rainbow servant, and importantly, loses hide & move silently as class skills. It really takes the class out of its role. If you suffer through all 10 levels, it has quite powerful results, I agree. But there are a lot of goodies in the beguiler class, and you're also passing up other prestige class stuff like Mindbender or Shadowcrafting.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-02-05, 01:57 PM
RS for sorcerer isn't actually that great

It's decent. 10/10 casting, easy prerequisites, a few useful abilities, three domains, and the ability to expand your spell list with useful spells such as Miracle.

faceroll
2010-02-05, 01:59 PM
It's decent. 10/10 casting, easy prerequisites, a few useful abilities, three domains, and the ability to expand your spell list with useful spells such as Miracle.

Sure, it's better than straight sorcerer, but in terms of "breaking your game", it's not going to do it. It just offers a formalized way for sorcerers to do something they technically can already do- pick cleric spells to put on their spell lists.

In terms of power, I'd say it's similar to PF's sorcerer, just with a very specific heritage.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-02-05, 02:01 PM
Sure, it's better than straight sorcerer, but in terms of "breaking your game", it's not going to do it. It just offers a formalized way for sorcerers to do something they technically can already do- pick cleric spells to put on their spell lists.

A throwaway line that is never referred to or expanded on afterward does not let the Sorcerer choose Miracle as a spell known.

faceroll
2010-02-05, 02:25 PM
A throwaway line that is never referred to or expanded on afterward does not let the Sorcerer choose Miracle as a spell known.

It's mentioned twice on the SRD:


A sorcererís selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer canít use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.


Adding Spells to a Sorcererís or Bardís Repertoire

A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table: The Bard or Table: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list he now knows. With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of.


"With permission", while it scares away CharOp, technically applies to EVERY prestige class.

Gnaeus
2010-02-05, 02:32 PM
Wait... by that logic, you'd also stop qualifying for prestige classes if you got Int drained or Enervated.

I suppose you could if you got Int drained. It is the same as if you qualify for a prestige class by being human, then lose it if you are reincarnated. Or if you qualify by having a feat acquired from an item or other outside source, then lose its abilities if you lose the feat. In this case, you enter the class by having the ability to cast x level spell, then lose its abilities when you can't get the spell. You would of course regain all your abilities as long as you stayed in your sanctum.

This wouldn't be my preferred ruling, I think it is a little mean. I would just ban it. But if a PC forced the issue...


It's mentioned twice on the SRD:

"With permission", while it scares away CharOp, technically applies to EVERY prestige class.

Yep, I'd put that argument squarely in with Pun-Pun, the infinite damage crusader, kobolds with 2 free sorc levels and early entry tricks for PRCs. Maybe RAW legal, certainly twisted and never in my game.

faceroll
2010-02-05, 02:44 PM
Yep, I'd put that argument squarely in with Pun-Pun, the infinite damage crusader, kobolds with 2 free sorc levels and early entry tricks for PRCs. Maybe RAW legal, certainly twisted and never in my game.

Twisted? Really? It's extraordinarily explicit and self contained. The intent is extremely obvious, unlike using three books published years apart by different authors to get 2 free sorc levels, which is arguably a totally unintended rules interpretation.

There's not much of a problem with a sorcerer learning Blade Barrier or Harm instead of Acid Fog or Tenser's Transformation.

Is it abusable? Certainly; virtually everything is. But it's also very explicit that you ask the DM, he thinks about it, then says yes or no. That's why you never see it in CharOp- it's too explicitly out of the player's hands.

Douglas
2010-02-05, 03:19 PM
The intent is extremely obvious
If you mean the intent is obviously that Sorcerers can learn cleric or druid or <insert class> spells with study, then you are wrong. I happen to think that the intent is obviously that Sorcerers can learn homebrewed, custom researched, or otherwise restricted-access (such as if your DM requires special effort to acquire spells from outside core) spells with their spells known (counting towards and subject to the normal limits on number of spells known, of course) in much the same way a wizard could put them in his spellbook. I am firmly convinced that the word "unusual" in those two sentences is intended to mean spells that are unusual for the entire game, as custom homebrewed and researched spells would be, rather than merely unusual for the Sorcerer class even though standard for other classes.

Now, regardless of which one of us (if either) is right about the intent, the simple fact that we disagree on it means that unless one of our opinions is in a very small minority the intent is, in fact, not obvious.

faceroll
2010-02-05, 03:23 PM
If you mean the intent is obviously that Sorcerers can learn cleric or druid or <insert class> spells with study, then you are wrong. I happen to think that the intent is obviously that Sorcerers can learn homebrewed, custom researched, or otherwise restricted-access (such as if your DM requires special effort to acquire spells from outside core) spells with their spells known in much the same way a wizard could put them in his spellbook.

So you learn the homebrewed, custom researched, or otherwise restricted-access spell Briar Patch, which is mechanically identical to the Druid spell Wall of Thorns. The rules there basically say "if it's not on the sorcerer/wizard list, you can learn it if the DM oks it".


Now, regardless of which one of us (if either) is right about the intent, the simple fact that we disagree on it means that unless one of our opinions is in a very small minority the intent is, in fact, not obvious.

No, you're being difficult, to gain e-points on the internet.
:smallbiggrin:

Douglas
2010-02-05, 03:29 PM
So you learn the homebrewed, custom researched, or otherwise restricted-access spell Briar Patch, which is mechanically identical to the Druid spell Wall of Thorns.
I'd call that skirting the rules on a technicality, not creating a new and unusual spell.


The rules there basically say "if it's not on the sorcerer/wizard list, you can learn it if the DM oks it".
Anything is ok if the DM oks it. They didn't need to say anything for that to be true. The rule is there in my opinion to point out and suggest that researching new spells should not be limited to wizards, not to suggest that Sorcerers should be able to ignore their class list.

faceroll
2010-02-05, 03:47 PM
I'd call that skirting the rules on a technicality, not creating a new and unusual spell.

I think an arcane version of a typically divine spell would qualify as both new and unusual, but ok.


Anything is ok if the DM oks it. They didn't need to say anything for that to be true.

Doesn't Rule 0 have to be a rule for it to be a rule?

There are numerous places where the written rules reinforce that the DM should be involved in player decisions, especially prestige class acquisition. There seem to be "hard" rules (this is what BAB does, this is how a standard action works, here's how you move through difficult terrain) that are to always be enforced, and "soft" rules (arcane sword sage, non-evil ur-priest, LA buy-off, stat generation) where the rules suggest a higher degree of DM oversight and interference. A sorcerer picking up a cleric spell seems to be one of these soft rules. Of course a DM could change a hard rule, but the underlying assumption of D&D is that the core mechanic doesn't need meddling with.


The rule is there in my opinion to point out and suggest that researching new spells should not be limited to wizards, not to suggest that Sorcerers should be able to ignore their class list.

No one is saying that sorcerers should be able to ignore their class list, just that they can pick up spells not on their spell list with DM oversight.