Yes. I'm sided with Redcloak. And what? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Water-Smurf

2010-02-05, 08:10 PM

His cause is just, his actions are reprehensible.

He has repeatedly subjugated and conquered territory, causing death and destruction wherever he goes. He has allied himself with the forces of absolute evil. He has shown complete disdain for the lives of other sentient beings, and has shown little remorse (except for those beings that share a monster type with him).

Well, if you go by that, then every conqueror/leader in offensive war in history would be evil. As callous as it is, you just don't feel the magnitude of causing the death of people when it's just a number--you don't know who they are, you just know that you killed a bunch of faceless mannequins. That's how militaries are able to function and get good people to kill other good people. I won't try to excuse the crimes he's committed, but I will point out that the humans/the so-called 'Good' gods started the 'disdain for the lives of other sentient beings' thing (and, over the course of history, have probably killed way more goblins than goblins have killed humans, this incident included). This is just a lashing out, and it's not as black-and-white as the heroes, Xykon, and a lot of readers try to think of it as.

Although, those are just the reasons why I don't judge Redcloak to be irredeemable, but I don't think that the methods he has used to build up his race are the best course of action, logically or morally. And I find it hard to really judge someone who's no more than an angry teenager who lost his family and who also is with lots of power as 'irredeemable.'

Draconi Redfir

2010-02-05, 08:23 PM

teall you what nay-sayers. howsabout i come along t oyour house, kill your entire family, and then walk away to promote world peice and feed the hungry.

would YOU not be pissed?

Conuly

2010-02-05, 08:55 PM

I'm just going to agree with pretty much everything watersmurf said, so go read it again and pretend I quoted her.

Lvl45DM!

2010-02-05, 09:50 PM

Every conquerer WAS evil...when is that in doubt?

Raging Gene Ray

2010-02-05, 09:56 PM

teall you what nay-sayers. howsabout i come along t oyour house, kill your entire family, and then walk away to promote world peice and feed the hungry.

would YOU not be pissed?

Yes...I'd probably dedicate my life to exterminating you. Not everybody who happened to share a zip code or species as you.

Conuly

2010-02-05, 09:59 PM

Every conquerer WAS evil...when is that in doubt?

Really? We don't idealize, say, William the Conqueror or Alexander the Great? Other nations don't still use the Napoleonic Code? None of us is taught to admire the Romans in history class?

Besides, conquerors are only evil *to the people they conquer*. To their own people, not so much.

Lvl45DM!

2010-02-05, 10:05 PM

Well people respect their battle tactics and abilities, but even Redclaok haters had a little "Whos awesome? RC's Awesome!" when those titanium elementals came out.
People more often respect folk like Ned Kelly or William Wallace, freedom fighters and anti authoritarians...ie The PC's!

slayerx

2010-02-05, 10:08 PM

So yes, I'm sided with Redcloak here. I want the gobbos to build up their own nation, and to kick all paladins and azurites out of Azure City.

Hooray for human slavery!
now let's go out and fight some more humans!

teall you what nay-sayers. howsabout i come along t oyour house, kill your entire family, and then walk away to promote world peice and feed the hungry.

would YOU not be pissed?
Yes i would, and i would take it out on YOU!
What Redcloak is doing however is not taking it out on "YOU" but also taking it out on EVERYONE in the city that you live in regardless of whether or not they knew of what you did, much less supported or were involved with it... THAT is not justice, that is revenge... hell if you or anyone of redcloak's sympathizes had been so much as visiting Azure city at the time of the hobgoblin attack, you would have been either killed or enslaved like the rest of the azurites...

Draconi Redfir

2010-02-05, 10:25 PM

Yes i would, and i would take it out on YOU!
What Redcloak is doing however is not taking it out on "YOU" but also taking it out on EVERYONE in the city that you live in regardless of whether or not they knew of what you did, much less supported or were involved with it... THAT is not justice, that is revenge... hell if you or anyone of redcloak's sympathizes had been so much as visiting Azure city at the time of the hobgoblin attack, you would have been either killed or enslaved like the rest of the azurites...

what if i was a bugbear and five other bugbears came with me?

perhaps to redcloak, all humans look the same. so he is attempting to be sure the one that harmd him was killed.

Yanti

2010-02-05, 10:25 PM

I am COMPLETELY with RedCloak and I don't mind his conquest of Azure City one bit. If you've read SoD, you know how Azurite Paladins slaughtered goblin men, women, and children wholesale. What I'm confused about is how Paladins, Lawful Good by definition, could go Nazi - killing every goblin they see because the think that goblins "taint the world" with thier "evilness" - and not turn into Blackguards on the spot.

Kallisti

2010-02-05, 10:29 PM

Hooray for human slavery!
now let's go out and fight some more humans!

Yes i would, and i would take it out on YOU!
What Redcloak is doing however is not taking it out on "YOU" but also taking it out on EVERYONE in the city that you live in regardless of whether or not they knew of what you did, much less supported or were involved with it... THAT is not justice, that is revenge... hell if you or anyone of redcloak's sympathizes had been so much as visiting Azure city at the time of the hobgoblin attack, you would have been either killed or enslaved like the rest of the azurites...

This example about a personal vendetta is...not quite accurate. It was the Sapphire Guard as an organization, not any specific paladin, that wiped out Redcloak's village, and his response took the form of war, not personal vengeance, although revenge was of course his motive.

Redcloak has a perfectly legitimate reason to want to wipe out the Sapphire Guard, and frankly a perfectly legitimate reason to go to war with Azure City. It's his treatment of the humans afterwards that makes him evil, not the act of attacking in the first place.

You're right, though, any human in Azure City after the conquest would have received the same treatment. This because Redcloak is evil. He's a sympathetic character, and he has a very real grievance, but he's still evil.

Just my two coppers.

drengnikrafe

2010-02-05, 10:30 PM

From an Out of World viewpoint (being how I am), I am obliged to side with Redcloak. He stands for the type of things that not enough people in the world stand for.

From an In World viewpoint (if I was an OOTS character in the OOTSverse) I would be against him. You have to consider that the reason we side with Redcloak is because we know. We know his past, his motives, his ideals. If all I knew was that he raised an army and destroyed my hometown, as well as my king and higher-ups, I would hate him with a burning passion.

Water-Smurf

2010-02-05, 10:38 PM

perhaps to redcloak, all humans look the same. so he is attempting to be sure the one that harmd him was killed.

No, he's perfectly aware that the paladins/nobles who ordered the slaughter are either dead or really old. He's unapologetically species-ist. But that doesn't change the fact that the humans and gods did indeed start this conflict, not just with his own village but countless other identical massacres that were treated as though someone had just cleaned up an infestation of bugs that was getting a little too big for some people's tastes. In conflicts like these, innocents inevitably get caught in the crossfire.

I am COMPLETELY with RedCloak and I don't mind his conquest of Azure City one bit. If you've read SoD, you know how Azurite Paladins slaughtered goblin men, women, and children wholesale. What I'm confused about is how Paladins, Lawful Good by definition, could go Nazi - killing every goblin they see because the think that goblins "taint the world" with thier "evilness" - and not turn into Blackguards on the spot.

The gods decide whether or not their paladins fall, and the gods were the ones who arbitrarily decided that goblins were an evil race that were good for their disciples to kill and gain levels with. The Twelve Gods wanted their paladins to clear out the goblins, and the paladins did as their gods said. But I think that it would be bad to say that one doesn't mind his conquest. An eye for an eye leaves the world blind, you know.

(Holy crap, Redcloak's missing eye could turn out to be symbolic of something other than Right-Eye.)

And not only that, but Redcloak's conquest has killed countless other little sisters, big brothers, mothers, uncles, and mentors, and has probably left a bunch of little brothers with some sort of mutilation. His actions are the product of his anger, and as justified and understandable as that anger may be, if he continues as he has, it will only lead to pain and the fall of the goblin nation he has worked so hard to create.

I've said it once and I'll say it again: I support his cause whole-heartedly, but morally and logically, his methods need work.

Da'Shain

2010-02-05, 10:41 PM

Actually, from what we know, Redcloak has no grievance against Azure City in general, just the Sapphire Guard in particular, correct? And the citizens of Azure City didn't even know that the Sapphire Guard existed, much less what kinds of actions it took in the name of protecting the world.

So, really, his grievance against Azure City itself is misguided, to say the least. Understandable, certainly, but I can't at all say I'm on his side. I want his ultimate goal to come to pass (equality for monstrous races and goblinoids in particular), but there's no way I would align myself with him, either in world or out of world.

Draconi Redfir

2010-02-05, 10:48 PM

slayerx

2010-02-05, 10:59 PM

what if i was a bugbear and five other bugbears came with me?

Then that means i got 5 more bugbears to kill...
Now if we are assuming that i would be unable to locate those 5 bugbears and yourself... then i would either have to use other means to track them down (oracle maybe)... or i pretty much have to forget bringing them to justice as it would be wrong to just indiscriminately kill... optionally, i might become an adventurer who would go to villages to find out about any monster that have been terrorizing and killing people so that i might be able to help other people kill evil murdering monsters... with any luck, my quest would lead me back to you and your cronies, as you will be very likely to kill again

so no, i would not just go an indiscriminately start killing bugbears, just because of the actions of 6... sure that would probably be easier, and it might make some part of me feel better, but then i would have become the monsters that i hate... soon i'd have young bugbears who did not harm anyone wishing for the death of all humans because i showed up to take out my anger on them... i would contribute to a never ending cycle of violence, that would do more harm than good... but if you support that kind of ****, i can't blame you

perhaps to redcloak, all humans look the same. so he is attempting to be sure the one that harmd him was killed.

Except you know for that fact that he KNOWS that it was PALADINS that destroyed his village... last i checked, i think the very high majority of azurites are not paladins... and that nearly all the current paladins have been killed already (except for 4)... currently their are no paladins amongsts those redcloak's enslaved

its possible that he wanted to exterminate the rest of the azure city populace in order to:

A: take over and guain a foothold as a goblinoid naition

Ah, just like exterminating vermin so they don't mess up your new home
nothing wrong with treating humans like vermin... it's not like you can just exile/relocate them or anything like that... of course not their more useful as slaves; don't want to miss out on torturing them for the rest of their miserable lives...

B: make sure the saphire guard couldent recruit/draft new members into their ranks after the war.
Ah you mean like say, killing off a whole village of goblins (women and children included) so they do not get recruited by their dark god to enact a plan that might threaten all of existence right?

Redcloak has a perfectly legitimate reason to want to wipe out the Sapphire Guard, and frankly a perfectly legitimate reason to go to war with Azure City. It's his treatment of the humans afterwards that makes him evil, not the act of attacking in the first place.

I'm not sure i'd call in "perfect"
I think according to the timeline, Redcloak's village was attacked almost 40 years ago... the members of that guard will either be dead or retired. The new saphire guard is comprised of new members... we also do not know what the current saphire guard's policy's are; people say that the old paladins seemed much more ruthless than the current guard (with Miko often being treated as the exception)...

hypothetical example: The young Lin enters the guard with dreams of protecting azure city and the world... not once has he tasted battle or dipped his sword in blood, and he does not know the details of the guard's history. Tell me this; does Lin deserve to die for the actions of those from 40 years ago? he never wronged RC, and never even harmed another goblin... would his death really be considered "perfectly legitimate"

but that's all becoming very borderline... i'm pro justice, but anti revenge... the farther removed you get from the original group, the harder i feel it comes to legitimize; the less it's like justice and the more it's like revenge... i might still agree it's "legitimate", but not sure about being "perfect"

My primary concern always comes back to the azurite citizens, not the saphire guard...
and when it comes down to it, the azurites are the ones suffering right now under RC's heel...

Draconi Redfir

2010-02-05, 11:24 PM

so no, i would not just go an indiscriminately start killing bugbears, just because of the actions of 6... sure that would probably be easier, and it might make some part of me feel better, but then i would have become the monsters that i hate... soon i'd have young bugbears who did not harm anyone wishing for the death of all humans because i showed up to take out my anger on them... i would contribute to a never ending cycle of violence, that would do more harm than good...

and yet this is exactly what happend. one adventurer dicided to kill some goblins becuse they happened to be liveing on some land that his emplyer wanted to build farms on. then, the goblins attack the employer and his farms. more adventerers are then recruited to kill the goblins, and the goblins dicide to attack the entire human village so no more adventurers could be hired.

THEN someone escapes that massicure and warns the local kingdom who sends a small squad to fix things. this small squad kills the goblins, goblins survive, retaliate, humans survive, retaliate, ETC. ETC. ETC.

Dr.Epic

2010-02-05, 11:55 PM

Ok, I know myself enough to admit that if I was an azurite, I'd sign up in the Resistance and fight for my country, of course. But it turns that I'm not an azurite.

So, here you have it. I always felt some sympathy for Redcloak, and after reading SoD, I must admit that I'm with him. All of you who have read SoD know what I'm talking about.

So yes, I'm sided with Redcloak here. I want the gobbos to build up their own nation, and to kick all paladins and azurites out of Azure City.

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
I wear a red cloak
Is the nature of my game

Go Redcloak! :smallbiggrin:

So the innocent Azurites - women, children, the elderly, and just regular guys trying to live a decent life with maybe a family - deserve death, enslavement, imprisonment, and/or the theft of their land all because some goblin can't learn to forgive and forget and wants to tamper with the fabric of creation?

jidasfire

2010-02-06, 12:03 AM

For all the people who hail Redcloak and his incredibly shallow morality, consider this. Redcloak, both in his cause and his methods, has killed more goblins than the Sapphire Guard. By sending them on violent missions, he ensured their deaths. By allying with Xykon, he enslaved them to a psychopath who values no life at all. By leading Xykon to Right-Eye's village, he ensured that those peace-loving goblins were forced to serve Xykon in his evil schemes. By killing his own brother, he ensured that there would be no hope of stopping the lich from doing this indefinitely (sure, the dagger would have failed regardless, but if RC and RE teamed up on Xykon, it could have turned the tide toward Dorukan). By leading all those goblins into Dorukan's dungeon, he ensured their deaths at the hands of the Order and the massive explosion. By taking over command of the hobgoblins, he led dozens of them to their deaths for nothing more than sheer pettiness. Perhaps he did learn his lesson, after a fashion, but how many hobgoblins died before he did?

So before you hail Redcloak for his dedication to the goblin cause, ask yourself what he's really fighting for, and what he's really accomplished. Because it seems to me that he uses them to advance himself, no differently from the gods who treat them as sacrificial pawns to begin with.

Drakevarg

2010-02-06, 12:11 AM

So the innocent Azurites - women, children, the elderly, and just regular guys trying to live a decent life with maybe a family - deserve death, enslavement, imprisonment, and/or the theft of their land all because some goblin can't learn to forgive and forget and wants to tamper with the fabric of creation?

Yes. Of course, I'd say the same of the goblins when the paladins wiped them out, because I'm a heartless bastard.

Whose side am I on? The Snarl's. Tear it all to bits, 'cause the world sucks and maybe next time the gods will get it right.

Querzis

2010-02-06, 12:40 AM

I must say, I never understood why some people like Redcloak more after reading SoD. I had some sympathy for Redcloak before reading SoD but I certainly didnt after. That book shows what he truly is namely: a filthy hypocrite whos no better then who hes fighting against, a delusional bastard who cant even realize the obvious flaw in his own logic despite being very smart and more importantly: a spineless coward who, like Right-eye, actually had a choice, lots of choice even, but hes just too cowardly and driven by revenge to ever do anything else.

That being said, I'm actually siding with the goblins. I really hope that Gobbotopia wont just get destroyed and that the goblins who live in that city will be able to live in peace. But thats not siding with Redcloak, thats siding with Right-eye. Right-eye was the most sympathetic character in SoD and he should have outlived his delusional brother. Even if Redcloak try to redeem himself now and finally abandon the Plan, its just too late.

Mystic Muse

2010-02-06, 12:44 AM

I believe in Redcloak's cause, but not his methods.

Thank you for summing up my opinion of this so well Water-smurf.

Raging Gene Ray

2010-02-06, 01:39 AM

I really hope that Gobbotopia wont just get destroyed and that the goblins who live in that city will be able to live in peace. But thats not siding with Redcloak, thats siding with Right-eye.

Never read SoD, but did Right-Eye gain his little slice of Goblin Paradise by killing and displacing the native humans/elves/dwarves? If so, I'd class him as no better than Redcloak and his underlings.

Querzis

2010-02-06, 01:45 AM

Never read SoD, but did Right-Eye gain his little slice of Goblin Paradise by killing and displacing the native humans/elves/dwarves? If so, I'd class him as no better than Redcloak and his underlings.

Nope he didnt. He made quite sure to build his village as far away from humans as possible to avoid any conflict. And it wasnt a paradise, it was really harsh but it was the only place where they could live in peace.

Kyronea

2010-02-06, 02:00 AM

Ok, I know myself enough to admit that if I was an azurite, I'd sign up in the Resistance and fight for my country, of course. But it turns that I'm not an azurite.

So, here you have it. I always felt some sympathy for Redcloak, and after reading SoD, I must admit that I'm with him. All of you who have read SoD know what I'm talking about.

So yes, I'm sided with Redcloak here. I want the gobbos to build up their own nation, and to kick all paladins and azurites out of Azure City.

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
I wear a red cloak
Is the nature of my game

Go Redcloak! :smallbiggrin:

Redcloak's goal, that of having the goblinoids treated equally and fairly like the other races rather than as little more than sapient training dummies is one that I am fully in favor of. To treat any sentient race the way they're treated...and worse yet, the gods themselves instituted this! Certainly no gods worthy of worship in my opinion.

However...Redcloak's methods, and especially what he has done here, are things I do not approve of at all. Equality means equality. It does not mean "We were oppressed for bunches and bunches so now that we have power we oppress you and that makes it right!"

slayerx

2010-02-06, 02:14 AM

and yet this is exactly what happend. one adventurer dicided to kill some goblins becuse they happened to be liveing on some land that his emplyer wanted to build farms on. then, the goblins attack the employer and his farms. more adventerers are then recruited to kill the goblins, and the goblins dicide to attack the entire human village so no more adventurers could be hired.

THEN someone escapes that massicure and warns the local kingdom who sends a small squad to fix things. this small squad kills the goblins, goblins survive, retaliate, humans survive, retaliate, ETC. ETC. ETC.

And your point?
Just because the cycle is already in effect does not at all mean i should contribute to it and make it worse... adding to the problem, disregarding it never solves it and only causes more pain.

Strawberries

2010-02-06, 02:57 AM

I believe in Redcloak's cause, but not his methods.

Yes, I'm with you on this. Worthy end, questionable means.

I find it hard not to sympathize with Redcloack, evil specieist or not, and I find it impossible not to root for the goblins at least a little bit.

I really hope that, in the end, their race can gain an equal standing. (And I really hope for Redcloack's redemption, but then I'm a sucker for well-written villain redemption stories :smallwink:)

Draconi Redfir

2010-02-06, 03:21 AM

Redcloak's goal, that of having the goblinoids treated equally and fairly like the other races rather than as little more than sapient training dummies is one that I am fully in favor of. To treat any sentient race the way they're treated...and worse yet, the gods themselves instituted this! Certainly no gods worthy of worship in my opinion.

However...Redcloak's methods, and especially what he has done here, are things I do not approve of at all. Equality means equality. It does not mean "We were oppressed for bunches and bunches so now that we have power we oppress you and that makes it right!"

My guess is that in order to gain the respect of other nations, Redcloak had to show he was capable of not only defending himself and the other goblinoids, but he was also capable, ready, and willing to attack anyone who dared to oppose him.

Its actually a good method if you think about it. Many societies would crown the kings/chiefs/lords/patrons/ETC assassin a king/ETC himself. By showing he has power, he is effectively gaining the respect of other nations.

Asta Kask

2010-02-06, 03:31 AM

Setting the choice between the old Sapphire Guard and Redcloak is a false dichotomy. My guess is that Rich will present a third option that will resolve the conflict (at least mitigate it).

Zxo

2010-02-06, 03:31 AM

Yeah, cause yes, methods no.

My sympathy is more with goblins as a whole than with Redcloak. I hope they will get a happy end as a race regardless of what happens to RC.

Nimrod's Son

2010-02-06, 03:56 AM

Its actually a good method if you think about it. Many societies would crown the kings/chiefs/lords/patrons/ETC assassin a king/ETC himself. By showing he has power, he is effectively gaining the respect of other nations.
Fear and respect are not even remotely the same thing.

Draconi Redfir

2010-02-06, 04:29 AM

Fear and respect are not even remotely the same thing.

it is when leaders (as many do) respect power, wich you have noticed by now, Redcloak has plenty of.

Jayngfet

2010-02-06, 04:47 AM

No, you fear that redcloak will march his armies and take another city. You fear that he'll use his blatant lack of morals to make your own dead eat their comrades on the battlefield. You fear that he's doing to end the world because of his own damn blindness.

You may fear him, but you aren't respecting him. The results are kinda similar in the short term, on the surface. But if they respect you they let you be, if they fear you they'll be building armies to defend and planning to retake the city for all the people you've subjugated.

Belkster11

2010-02-06, 05:17 AM

At the risk of being called Adolf Hitler or being associated with the Nazis, I poke my head into this thread and say...

I support Reddy's cause, but his methods are questionable, however, I'm going to be the devil's advocate.

Reddy doesn't think there is any other choice but to violently take over and enslave a human settlement. Looking at what happened to the attack on his village, he must've concluded that these humans can't be reasoned with, can't be compromised with.

Let me offer a scenario. Let's go back in time waaaaaaay before Azure City was attacked. Now let's say an average civvie goblin meandered close to Azure City territory. Do you think the humans are gonna go, "Hello, Goblin! It is indeed a pleasure to meet you. Come! Come and dine with us in our gilded halls!"

Not a chance. I imagine that as soon as someone saw that random, unarmed, civillian goblin who has done nothing wrong, a guard or a SG would come running out of that front gate to beat or SMITE EVIL his butt.

Reddy wants what is best for his people. He knows that the humans wouldn't bother listening if a goblin/hobgoblin came up to them, even if they were negotiating peace. He's also seen the SG routinely "cleanse" the word of the Goblin kind, so what else can he do?

In his mind, the only thing he CAN do is to invade the human lands and enslave them.

So I can understand why he did it, invading lands and enslaving humans.

$5.00 that someone reads this and immediatly assumes I like Hitler or equates understanding why Reddy would do it equals me making excuses for why he did it.

Nimrod's Son

2010-02-06, 05:35 AM

In his mind, the only thing he CAN do is to invade the human lands and enslave them.
Bolded the key part for you there. The Hobgoblins already had a city when he first encountered them. He could have used that as his seat of influence - without marching a good chunk of the population to their deaths - and preached his message of peace, unity and prosperity from there without the whole "warmongering and slavery" thing going on.

multilis

2010-02-06, 05:44 AM

...I support Reddy's cause...
So Belkster11, are you against Belkster for not accepting surrender of goblins, instead saying "Run, my pretty little chunks of XP, run!!"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html

Paladins at least were trying to save the world from "dark one", while Belkster slaughter is mainly selfish reasons.

Redcloak's goal, that of having the goblinoids treated equally and fairly like the other races rather than as little more than sapient training dummies is one that I am fully in favor of. To treat any sentient race the way they're treated...and worse yet, the gods themselves instituted this! Certainly no gods worthy of worship in my opinion.
Same question as above, are you against Belkster for killing surrendering goblins for XP?

Neopolis

2010-02-06, 05:47 AM

Hmm, you know, the Stones song was the first thing I thought of too when you bolded "Sympathy for Redcloak" like that... :P

Stuck around Azure City... When I saw it was the time for change... :smallamused:

Belkster11

2010-02-06, 06:25 AM

Bolded the key part for you there. The Hobgoblins already had a city when he first encountered them. He could have used that as his seat of influence - without marching a good chunk of the population to their deaths - and preached his message of peace, unity and prosperity from there without the whole "warmongering and slavery" thing going on.

Hmmmm...

Forgot about that part.

Like I said, I understand where Reddy's coming from, but his way of achieving it is wrong.

hamishspence

2010-02-06, 07:25 AM

Going by SoD, if Redcloak had remained in the public eye for any length of time, Sapphire Guard extermination squads would have turned up.

With an organization like that around, it makes sense that he would have taken whatever steps he deemed necessary to end its threat- that is- to invade its home city and destroy the organization. As he put it at the end of the Battle:

"As an organization- stick a fork in them- they're done."

Water-Smurf

2010-02-06, 07:40 AM

My guess is that in order to gain the respect of other nations, Redcloak had to show he was capable of not only defending himself and the other goblinoids, but he was also capable, ready, and willing to attack anyone who dared to oppose him.

Its actually a good method if you think about it. Many societies would crown the kings/chiefs/lords/patrons/ETC assassin a king/ETC himself. By showing he has power, he is effectively gaining the respect of other nations.

International relations don't work that way.

By causing such fierce bloodshed and coming out on top, Redcloak has earned fear, yes, but hatred as well. Not respect. That's what conquering does. If he had been a just conqueror and had allowed humans equal rights and required little from them besides following his laws and paying his taxes, as the Romans did, then after a while, people would respect him and say that the goblin nation was a just one. But he didn't do that.

In the humans' and the elves' eyes, through his bloody siezure of leadership and his horrendous treatment of the humans afterwards, he has proven that goblins are an evil race that will destroy everyone if they're not 'cleared out', the same way the conquest post-Dark One murder did. Make no mistake--no matter what trading routes they're making, the Azurites have the world's favor. Nations are going to team up and topple them down. And treatment of goblins and other 'evil' races is going to be even more vicious than before.

Nimrod's Son

2010-02-06, 07:50 AM

Going by SoD, if Redcloak had remained in the public eye for any length of time, Sapphire Guard extermination squads would have turned up.

With an organization like that around, it makes sense that he would have taken whatever steps he deemed necessary to end its threat- that is- to invade its home city and destroy the organization.
The Sapphire Guard might have had little trouble wiping out ragtag villages of goblins, but an entire fortified city of hobgoblin soldiers? Not nearly so easy. I'm sure with the right kind of preparations Redcloak could hold out against them indefinitely.

Lvl45DM!

2010-02-06, 07:59 AM

i am against a goblin city. wanna know why?
They are EVIL! yes they are only evil because the gods made them that way. but they all get off on torture and killing! looking at their pre war talk, and the way they talk about their prisoners. They are an evil nation that should be brought crashing down. Slavery people! torture! evil!!!! and while some of them are civvies 90% are militant hobgoblins. SOLDIERS OF EVIL. Fireball them from orbit only way to be sure i say

Closak

2010-02-06, 08:02 AM

Guess what?

Humans are evil too.
Slaughtering women and children indiscriminately is an evil act regardless of species.

I say we FIREBALL ALL HUMANS FROM ORBIT!!!

Asta Kask

2010-02-06, 08:05 AM

They are EVIL! yes they are only evil because the gods made them that way. but they all get off on torture and killing!

Evil is not a lifestyle choice. :smallsmile:

Lvl45DM!

2010-02-06, 08:22 AM

Closak, that wasnt all humans! that was the group of paladins. Sure fireball them, but can ya do it without killing about 20000 innocent humans in the process?

Kish

2010-02-06, 08:24 AM

Well, you certainly couldn't fireball Azure CityGobbotopia without killing at least that many innocent humans.

Morty

2010-02-06, 08:41 AM

So Belkster11, are you against Belkster for not accepting surrender of goblins, instead saying "Run, my pretty little chunks of XP, run!!"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html

Paladins at least were trying to save the world from "dark one", while Belkster slaughter is mainly selfish reasons.

Same question as above, are you against Belkster for killing surrendering goblins for XP?

:smallconfused: What does Belkar even have to do with anything?

Kish

2010-02-06, 08:43 AM

:smallconfused: What does Belkar even have to do with anything?
I think multilis is making a wild, unsupported guess that Belkster11 has a degree of...fondness...for Belkar Bitterleaf. Where anyone would get that idea, I'm sure I don't know.

Milandros

2010-02-06, 09:18 AM

One problem is that we don't know enough. The automatic assumption seems to be "There was this village of peaceful, gentle, happy goblins then the fascist paladin nazis came and butchered them all for fun and lolz!"

But they are paladins. And they didn't fall. There has to be more to it than that. I'm not saying the paladins or their gods are blameless - far from it - but the automatic assumption that the goblins were complete innocents is somewhat unlikely too.

If this was the fifth or sixth time the paladins had tracked down the Crimson Mantle - preventing at the last minute and at great sacrifice and cost the destruction of the world each time - or the goblins had been organised by the Crimson Mantle and were raiding and depopulating local villages of other races, or any number of other possibilities, the situation gets more complicated.

I think it's necessary to make a mental separation between understandable and justified. Redcloak's reactions are certainly understandable, considering what happened to his family. His base goal - a better deal for the goblins - is certainly fine and upstanding. But, as he made clear to O-Chul, he's not after goblin equality, he's after goblin sovereignty, or even supremacy. Other races can be slaves, or die. His methods are immoral; he's turned away from other options such as Right-Eye's village or the hobgoblin city in order to pursue his goal. He's quite happy to condemn every living soul, including his own goblins, to oblivion and destruction for the sake of The Plan.

I'd also note that, although what happened to his tribe and his family may have been what originally motivated him, when the time came he quite happily fed what was left of his family into Xykon's meat grinder.

Redcloak is really your classic tragic villain; one who is probably past redemption, but if only, if only he'd made a few choices differently then he could have been a hero. But those choices have been made; and, as Soon said, redemption is not for everybody.

FujinAkari

2010-02-06, 09:56 AM

Guess what?

Humans are evil too.
Slaughtering women and children indiscriminately is an evil act regardless of species.

I say we FIREBALL ALL HUMANS FROM ORBIT!!!

Except that neither Humans, or even the Sapphire Guard do this.

There is no evidence whatsoever that the Sapphire Guard routinely wipe out goblin villages or slaughter goblins indiscriminately. All we know is that they attack threats to the entire world (this is the exact opposite of "indiscriminate").

Additionally, since we can see that the Paladins do not fall for attempting to safeguard the world from a second annihilation, we can only conclude that the act was not evil. I think everyone agrees that the circumstances were abhorrent, but stating that -all- humans are evil based on a -single series- of empirically non-evil (but horrific) acts is intellectually dishonest.

Don't do it :P

Mystic Muse

2010-02-06, 10:01 AM

Closak, that wasnt all humans! that was the group of paladins. Sure fireball them, but can ya do it without killing about 20000 innocent humans in the process?

Yes. Fireball isn't big enough to kill 20,000 humans at once.:smalltongue:

@ FujinAkari. The Paladins didn't fall because of the way Rich's world works. Not because everybody in that village was an irredeemable monster.

Now, I'd love to stay and chat but I have a D&D game to get to.

Closak

2010-02-06, 10:08 AM

The reason goblins are slaughtered like they are is very simple.

The gods say it is okay to kill them, therefor a paladin can torture, maim and butcher goblins to his hearts content without falling, because the gods say that doing so is okay.

They are goblins, that makes it okay to kill them even if they haven't done anything.
Oh look, a newborn baby, wait it's a goblin! That makes it okay to kill it! *Butchers baby*

And adventurers kill goblins all the time for XP.
Even if the goblins haven't done anything at all people will often walk up to and brutally murder them "BECAUSE THEY ARE GOBLINS! THAT MAKES IT OKAY TO KILL THEM LULZ!"

And it is well known that most people WILL commit evil acts if they know that they can get away with it, or if they are told by a higher authority to do so (Known fact about human psychology)

Oh look, another goblin! *Kills goblin for no other reason than that it's a goblin*
"What? The goblins are tired of being discriminated and murdered at every turn and are retaliating? RAAAGE! KILL THEM ALL! THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO FIGHT BACK OR DEFEND THEMSELVES! DIE GOBLINS! WIPE THEM ALL OUT!"

Paladin: *Murders a baby*
The gods: It was a goblin, so instead of falling for murdering a baby we will reward you with XP instead!

ScottishDragon

2010-02-06, 10:16 AM

I'm with Xykon,so for the time being i am sided with red cloak.

Foryn Gilnith

2010-02-06, 10:22 AM

Xykon is evil.
Redcloak is a pathetic spineless bastard.
The "civilized" gods pervert morality.

Yeah, I'm hoping they all get killed by the Snarl.

Asta Kask

2010-02-06, 10:23 AM

Is an act Good because the (good) gods command it, or do they command it because it is Good?

TheBlackShadow

2010-02-06, 10:23 AM

I too am with Redcloak for the most part.

His cause and motivation, most seem to agree, are just. The Goblinoids were originally created as sentient cannon fodder, and the only time they stood up for themselves the other races refused to see them as equals. The Goblins have been treated like **** for a thousand years and its pretty difficult to argue with Redcloak on that front. Yes, he is bigoted and hypocritical, but seeing as his only experiences of humans have been bad ones (the Sapphire Guard destroying his home, hanging out with Xykon) you can probably see why he is like this.

Yes, his actions in his association with Xykon and the sacking of Azure City are reprehensible, but no worse than what the other races have been doing to the Goblins for a thousand years. Cruel and callous as he is, he is only doing what he believes is necessary (much like the Sapphire Guard, ironically), and isn't evil in the vein of, say, Xykon, or Belkar.

Which brings us to the issue of The Plan. Clearly, Redcloak's willingness to risk all of existence is not a Good Thing, but if you squint a little, you can almost see the reasoning there; it is clear from experience that the other races will not accept the Goblinoids as equals easily, so holding the world to ransom, shockingly, and indeed, insanely cruel and reprehensible as it may be, might, in Redcloak's view, be the only way to get it done. Plus, if the worst comes to the worst and the world is destroyed, maybe it'll teach the Gods to to a better job next time and not to create an entire sentient species for the sole purpose of killing them. ********s.

Overall, I confess that I feel a degree of sympathy for Redcloak. Obbiously I don't hope that all of reality gets destroyed, but I wish him luck in emancipating the Goblins, and hope he comes closer to Righteye's way of thinking before the end of the comic to find a way to solve the Goblinoid question effectively without the use of god-killing abominations or too much more excessive bloodshed.

Closak

2010-02-06, 10:26 AM

Xykon is evil.
Redcloak is a pathetic spineless bastard.
The "civilized" gods pervert morality.

Yeah, I'm hoping they all get killed by the Snarl.

I'm gonna have to agree with this.

Screw the gods, screw them all i say, just set The Snarl on them and get it over with.

Optimystik

2010-02-06, 10:42 AM

Xykon is evil.
Redcloak is a pathetic spineless bastard.
The "civilized" gods pervert morality.

Yeah, I'm hoping they all get killed by the Snarl.

This. Very much this.

Or at least, that a close brush with Unmaking helps them get their collective acts together.

Is an act Good because the (good) gods command it, or do they command it because it is Good?

A mix of both. I'd say standard morality is the default, but the Gods can override it if they want.

Consider Thor, who is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html) clearly Chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html), but breaks the rules with an LG cleric.

Draconi Redfir

2010-02-06, 10:53 AM

i am against a goblin city. wanna know why?
They are EVIL! yes they are only evil because the gods made them that way. but they all get off on torture and killing!

to quote a Drow i am in no way accosiaited with:

"hun, in this world, the only diffrnece between "good" and "evil", is that "good" pepole pretend to not enjoy this kind of thing"

-Arachnie the drow from YAFGC in reffering to humans useing torture devices.

slayerx

2010-02-06, 11:35 AM

Let me offer a scenario. Let's go back in time waaaaaaay before Azure City was attacked. Now let's say an average civvie goblin meandered close to Azure City territory. Do you think the humans are gonna go, "Hello, Goblin! It is indeed a pleasure to meet you. Come! Come and dine with us in our gilded halls!"

Not a chance. I imagine that as soon as someone saw that random, unarmed, civillian goblin who has done nothing wrong, a guard or a SG would come running out of that front gate to beat or SMITE EVIL his butt.

You have no basis for this...
there is NOTHING that suggests that the sapphire guard or the humans of Azure City would slaughter just any goblin on sight.
When it comes down to it, the paladins destroyed that village with a reason, they had a purpose... it's true that they do not care much for Goblin lives, but that does not at all mean that they will go out a slaughter a random goblin that just walks up to them and says hello; especially if the goblin registers as non-evil... so far the only goblins they have been seen slaughtering are the ones connected to the dark one and the crimson mantle

Which brings us to the issue of The Plan. Clearly, Redcloak's willingness to risk all of existence is not a Good Thing, but if you squint a little, you can almost see the reasoning there; it is clear from experience that the other races will not accept the Goblinoids as equals easily, so holding the world to ransom, shockingly, and indeed, insanely cruel and reprehensible as it may be, might, in Redcloak's view, be the only way to get it done. Plus, if the worst comes to the worst and the world is destroyed, maybe it'll teach the Gods to to a better job next time and not to create an entire sentient species for the sole purpose of killing them. ********s.
Keyword highlighted...
Just because it would not be "easy" does NOT mean it is impossible, and as such does NOT mean you need to resort extreme and evil methods...

There was a lot of potential with that hobgoblin fort city he found...
With an army of 10,000 he could defend the city from anykind of human attack... Even if humans do not like their presence, their is not much they can do about it as it would take A LOT effort to destroy that fort city... as such it would give him plenty of time to build up relations with other nations, and get them to recognize their city as a small nation. If he makes his city more neutral aligned, then he can slowly work his way into creating more respect for goblins and peaceful coexistence for the goblins and humans...

but RC chose the easier, much more risky and evil method...

hell by simply conquering azure city in what appears to all other nations as an unprovoked attack, he has earned his goblin nation world wide hatred and fear... i would not be surprised if many good aligned human nations were forming alliances to prepare to defend themselves, and might be speared into attacking the hobgoblins in a preemptive strike to protect themselves from suffering the same fate as azure city... we already know that the elves are ready to fight them, azure city is rebuilding their forces to come back; and with those two factors in play (combined with the knowledge that the epic level lich was abandoning the city), hinjo might be able to convince his 4 other allied nations to forget their fear and help him... all this because RC chose to play the conquerer instead of trying to do things in a more peaceful fashion.

Closak

2010-02-06, 11:48 AM

Yeah see, thing is that it's kinda the humans fault that the Dark One even exists in the first place.

Let's put it this way.

Great goblin leader rises up and unites goblins.
Great goblin leader tries to use diplomacy to get goblins a better deal.
Humans do not like that the goblins are trying to get a better deal and assasinate great goblin leader.
Goblins angry at death of great goblin leader go after the ones responsible.
Goblins worship great goblin leader and great goblin leader ascends to godhood.
The Dark One is born.
Dark One realizes that diplomacy will not work, seeing as how his own attemp at a diplomatic solution got him killed.
Cue The Plan.

And then the paladins comes and slaughters everyone involved in The Plan.
Then they slaughter the families of everyone involved too, even the children.

I'm gonna have to say the humans are to blame there.

*Mutters about human inability to accept the consequences of their own actions* Idiot humans, thinking they can do anything and get away with it.
They have the nerve to get angry when the goblins retaliate WHEN THEY WERE THE ONES WHO STARTED IT.
What gives them the right?

Asta Kask

2010-02-06, 11:58 AM

They have the nerve to get angry when the goblins retaliate WHEN THEY WERE THE ONES WHO STARTED IT.
What gives them the right?

"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
Thucydides

slayerx

2010-02-06, 12:09 PM

Yeah see, thing is that it's kinda the humans fault that the Dark One even exists in the first place.

Let's put it this way.

Great goblin leader rises up and unites goblins.
Great goblin leader conducts a brilliant and savage campaign against the northern countries.
Having them at his mercy, he goes to their leadership to talk
Great goblin leader tries to use diplomacy to get goblins a better deal.
Humans do not like that the goblins are trying to get a better deal and assasinate great goblin leader.
Goblins angry at death of great goblin leader go after the ones responsible.
Goblins worship great goblin leader and great goblin leader ascends to godhood.
The Dark One is born.
Dark One realizes that diplomacy will not work, seeing as how his own attemp at a diplomatic solution got him killed.
Cue The Plan.

huh... i wonder why the human leaders reacted to the dark one as they did... it is so very strange... why would they have any hard feelings against a goblin who has waged war against the humans, and is only using diplomacy when he feels he has the upperhand and that the humans have no choice to give in to his demands... it is so very strange

this wasn't a case of, "i'm a peace lving hippy and all i want is equal rights" its more like "i just kill many of your kin, now give us some equal right or i'll kill even more"... but ya, i guess you could say that war is a KIND of diplomacy

*Mutters about human inability to accept the consequences of their own actions* Idiot humans, thinking they can do anything and get away with it.
They have the nerve to get angry when the goblins retaliate WHEN THEY WERE THE ONES WHO STARTED IT.
What gives them the right?
And this is part of that ol' cycle of hatred i was referring to... revenge does not end a fight, as all it does is make more poeple get pissed off and want revenge... in no way should all humans pay for the sins of other humans and visa versa for goblins... for every human the goblins kill that had nothing to do with the humans that killed their kin, it creates more humans that have a very rational hatred for goblins... By just indiscriminately killing all you end up doing is fostering more hatred and contributing to the problem.

Closak

2010-02-06, 12:19 PM

Optimystik

2010-02-06, 12:46 PM

Do you really think they would have listened to him?

Goblin: He-
Human: Why would we listen to you? You are a goblin! *Kills*

Let's be fair now - the Sapphire Guard might react that way, but Right-Eye's village proved that humans and goblins can socialize without immediately sharpening axes.

Zxo

2010-02-06, 02:02 PM

We have seen, in Origins, a group of humanoids who tried to say hello and purchase food and had groups of adventurers sent to kill them (and a paladin who had no problem with killing them instead of negotiating).

That Right-Eye met some humans who weren't attacking him when he was sitting in the circus audience with family (note they were sitting in the last row, in the corner) is cool, but it doesn't help if there were still enough humans who would attack them and those were the powerful ones: adventurers (for easy xp), paladins. Some of them would come one day.

slayerx

2010-02-06, 02:10 PM

Do you really think they would have listened to him?

Goblin: He-
Human: Why would we listen to you? You are a goblin! *Kills*

Get their attention with a war and at least they notice you before they kill you.

Simply put, they would have had no reason to listen to him if he had approached them peacefully, they would just have ignored him and outright killed him if he continued bothering them with his peace talks.
Humans are not known for listening unless they have to.
Such horribly, horribly flawed thinking
this is a pure example of lumping ALL humans together, generalizing the entire race, and jumping to UNPROVEN conclusions (fact is, if you do not try something you can not say they would not work)

fact of the matter is that there was ABSOLUTELY NO WAY humans were going to except peaceful coexistance with the dark one's goblins after he had brutally slaughtered thousands of humans. They would have nothing but pure hate for him

Hell, why should the humans even believe his message for peace and equal rights? after slaughtering so many and forcing their hands, they would sooner believe that it was nothing more than a ploy for them to lower their guard so that he could continue his conquest. They have no reason to think he wants peace and every reason to think that he wants goblins to rule over the humans.

Fact is, when the dark one choose to use WAR, power, and fear as his method of diplomacy, he lost all credibility in making a bid for peaceful coexistence. Hell the dark one makes it look like the goblins deserved the shabby treatment they got; his campaign gave credibility to ll those that say that goblins were nothing but cold blooded evil murders. Who the hell in their right mind would want to give equal treatment to a group like that?

this my friend, is the difference between "fear" and "respect"...
While they seem to have similar effects, fear results in hatred and the beneficial effects of it only last so long as the enemy continues to fear you... but the moment the enemy grows the spine to step up against you, you're gonna get a knife in the back... any "peace" that could have resulted from the dark one's conquest, would have been short lived as it would have spawned fierce hatred against goblins... "respect" on the otherhand is something that is harder to earn but the effects are very long... earn their respect and they will give you the benefit of the doubt... earn their respect of others and they will aid you in your time of need...

Hell we can't go into details due to forum rules, but we know some of the most successful campaigns for equal rights came from peaceful protest... their may be considerable resistance, but when you use peaceful methods, many good people will naturally start to sympathize with your cause and message... it's the hard way to earn rights, but its the most effective and lasting... trying to force others to except you will only earn you hate and make your whole race look terrible

That Right-Eye met some humans who weren't attacking him when he was sitting in the circus audience with family (note they were sitting in the last row, in the corner) is cool, but it doesn't help if there were still enough humans who would attack them and those were the powerful ones: adventurers (for easy xp), paladins. Some of them would come one day.
Surprise surprise, not all humans are the same...
not all humans would kill goblins in an instant...
it's wrong to generalize humans, as those that would ALWAYS slaughter goblins and incapable of compromise

which is part of the benefit of first organizing together... random adventurers and paladins can't take on hundreds of goblins at once. You band together into a group that would not be easily slaughtered at the drop of a hat by those that would assume the worst and start your negotiating from there... keep up the peaceful work, and more humans like the one red eye met will come to respect them, and foster an understanding... by acting peacefully as a group you help paint a better picture for the majority of your race... the more peaceful work they do the less likely people will jump to the conclusion that a goblin is dangerous, and the more people will frown upon those that would kill them for no reason

it's not easy to create peace... it's a hard road and long road that could take centuries... but you can make it to the end, it will be all the more worthwhile when you do

ThePhantasm

2010-02-06, 02:12 PM

Redcloak is a sympathetic villain.

But a villain is a villain.

Optimystik

2010-02-06, 02:19 PM

We have seen, in Origins, a group of humanoids who tried to say hello and purchase food and had groups of adventurers sent to kill them (and a paladin who had no problem with killing them instead of negotiating).

The orcs scared the shopkeeper because they walked into his store wielding axes. I agree he overreacted, but the adventurers were going off his story.

Note that even Roy and Durkon didn't question the mission, until the Orc that attacked them mentioned "getting better seats."

So there is blame on both sides, really.

That Right-Eye met some humans who weren't attacking him when he was sitting in the circus audience with family (note they were sitting in the last row, in the corner) is cool, but it doesn't help if there were still enough humans who would attack them and those were the powerful ones: adventurers (for easy xp), paladins. Some of them would come one day.

A) Only Ridizak and Right-Eye were sitting in the last row. This was presumably to keep an eye on the younger children, who were sitting in the row in front of them, not necessarily due to segregation.

B) There were humans on the back row as well.

C) His village stood unmolested for 17 years. To quote: "no paladins, no elves, no raids on humans."

So I'm not sure what you're basing your assertions on.

Asta Kask

2010-02-06, 02:20 PM

The tragedy here is that by leading Xykon to that village, Redcloak unwittingly destroyed what he hoped to create.

Water-Smurf

2010-02-06, 02:26 PM

Personally, I think that the ideas of Good and Evil have been perverted by the gods so thoroughly that it's hard to actually use either term in an argument. A human infant is no more 'Good' than a goblin one, but the gods arbitrarily decided that you can kill one without any alignment issues but not the other. The gods tried to make it black and white the way D&D's makers did. But what can work in a game, something that's just fantasy, causes genocide towards one certain race that was screwed over by their creators from the beginning when actually put into practice. By the gods' screwed up alignment system, yes, Redcloak is Evil and the Azurites/Sapphire Guard were Good, but I don't really accept the gods' strategy of "Alright, these guys look like us and fight for us, so they're good. We don't like the green people, so they're Evil' deciding alignment. Had the situation been switched--had the humans retaliated against the genocidal goblins and resorted to desperate measures to do so--the gods would have immediately decided that they were Good.

I think that the issue is too entrenched in gray to really condemn either Redcloak and the goblins or Azure City and the Sapphire Guard. On one end, there are people who went to some unsavory and downright immoral means to protect the fabric of the universe, and on the other, there is a whole race of people tired of losing their loved ones to ruthless 'clearing out' and starvation, tired of being oppressed, and tired of always coming out on the bottom. When the gods made this situation, they should have seen this tragic and morally complicated conclusion coming a mile away. Both sides are sympathetic, and in the end, both sides had far too many innocents caught in the crossfire.

Arcane_Secrets

2010-02-06, 02:38 PM

Nope he didnt. He made quite sure to build his village as far away from humans as possible to avoid any conflict. And it wasnt a paradise, it was really harsh but it was the only place where they could live in peace.

Even by doing that, I'm not sure if Right-eye's situation if Xykon had never found him was ultimately tenable. I suspect that given enough time, the Sapphire Guard would've showed up and disrupted whatever peace existed between the goblins and the humans. It probably would've gone something like this:

Right-eye: "I abandoned Redcloak and his plan years ago. I have no idea where he is now."
Paladin: "Still, you associated with him. For your crimes, you deserve death. Or, you can 'help us' turn in your brother and we will consider mercy." *

* Note that considering mercy is a lawful way of not guaranteeing the survival of him and his children. They could still say that having considered it, they rejected it afterwards.

Local humans: "No, the goblins haven't really been much trouble around here at all. Not more than most people. They pretty much pay their bills and leave us alone."
Paladin: "You side with those that serve the evildoers. Clearly the gods want me to kill you!"

Water-Smurf

2010-02-06, 02:41 PM

Even by doing that, I'm not sure if Right-eye's situation if Xykon had never found him was ultimately tenable. I suspect that given enough time, the Sapphire Guard would've showed up and disrupted whatever peace existed between the goblins and the humans. It probably would've gone something like this:

Right-eye: "I abandoned Redcloak and his plan years ago. I have no idea where he is now."
Paladin: "Still, you associated with him. For your crimes, you deserve death. Or, you can 'help us' turn in your brother and we will consider mercy." *

* Note that considering mercy is a lawful way of not guaranteeing the survival of him and his children. They could still say that having considered it, they rejected it afterwards.

Local humans: "No, the goblins haven't really been much trouble around here at all. Not more than most people. They pretty much pay their bills and leave us alone."
Paladin: "You side with those that serve the evildoers. Clearly the gods want me to kill you!"

Eh... that sounds more like Miko talking rather than a general Sapphire Guard paladin. I could see the paladins maybe considering letting Right-Eye's family go, but they'd probably make him lead them to Redcloak and may or may not kill him afterwards. If the gods told them that the village in general was a threat, then forget it. Everyone's a goner.

slayerx

2010-02-06, 03:06 PM

there is a whole race of people tired of losing their loved ones to ruthless 'clearing out' and starvation, tired of being oppressed, and tired of always coming out on the bottom.
Actually this reminds me of another reason why i don't don't care much about the goblin nation.
That above rational is REDCLOAK'S reasons for attacking and enslaving azure city... but what about the hobgoblins... quit frankkly i can't help but look at the hobgoblins in the second panel on the right (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html)... do those sound like the words of hobgoblins who are sick of being oppressed by humans, are out for justice, and just want equal rights? they are not mad, their happy and excited... no it sounds like a bunch of hobgoblins that just enjoy a good human slaughter. They don't seem to be looking at the bigger picture; didn't fight in azure city to right the wrongs done to many goblins, they came to have a few lulz! They would have had the same response if they were lead to just about any other city regardless of it's history on the treatment of goblins.... as so far i do not recall seeing any hobgoblins that refute this image of them

Its like because of a few goblins like redcloak and right-eye, people are jumping to the conclusion that ALL goblins just want to live in peace... but that's isn't necessarily the case... it's not at all that simple or can be generalized as such. Not all goblins are evil, but nor are they all just looking for peace and their fair share... and that's why so many are willing to overlook human slavery to support the hobgoblins, because they jump to the conclusion that they just want to live in peace... frankly the slavery only helps support that they are doing this more because they are evil and less because they want peace

This is part of why goblins are usually evil; and while you might object to a baby goblin being registered as evil, the adults are indeed responsible for their own actions and their alignment reflects it... that's part of how the alignment system works, maybe the gods do determine your alignment at birth and this is wrong, but ultimately your alignment is based on your intentions and actions... and as far as i can see, the hobgoblins seem to be pretty evil, and don't even have redcloak's more sympathetic qualities to back them up... hell when you think about it, exactly how much oppression could a city of 30,000 hobgoblins really suffer at the hands of humans?

granted i would not be surprised that some of the hobgoblins have changed their views over the past year... once redcloak started treating them like kin he could also start preaching the REAL reason they should be killing and enslaving humans; opening their eyes to the bigger picture, so they are more like himself (which is still evil; though a bit more sympathetic)...

Even by doing that, I'm not sure if Right-eye's situation if Xykon had never found him was ultimately tenable. I suspect that given enough time, the Sapphire Guard would've showed up and disrupted whatever peace existed between the goblins and the humans. It probably would've gone something like this:
Yes you aren't sure... can't really say to much after that...
the saphire guard really doesn't have anything to make them think right-eye and redcloak were connected; it's not like goblins are in a global registry that allows you to know who's related to who... if right-eye's village did not show itself to be worshippers of the dark one, then i see no reason for the Sapphire Guard to slaughter them... ultimately the reason the paladins attacked Redcloak's village was because of the dark one's plans... there is nothing to suggest that guard goes around just slaughtering just any goblin village they come across

Zxo

2010-02-06, 08:58 PM

Surprise surprise, not all humans are the same...
not all humans would kill goblins in an instant...
it's wrong to generalize humans, as those that would ALWAYS slaughter goblins and incapable of compromise

Even if the great majority of humans wouldn't kill goblins, in a situation when there's no punishment for doing it, but a reward, a small group of humans who would kill goblins is a huge problem. No alignment penalties, no reputation penalties, you get xp, local humans who didn't mind goblins living next to them wouldn't probably defend them and risk lives for them... Survival of Right-Eye's village depended exclusively on not being found by some silly adventurers.

which is part of the benefit of first organizing together... random adventurers and paladins can't take on hundreds of goblins at once.

Hundreds of goblin commoners? (I do not think they all have class levels like Right-Eye.) Not much of a problem with AoE spells. Besides, you miss one important point: resources. To have thousands living together, high-density, you need to feed them. You need lots of fertile land, or natural resources you can sell (or make into something and sell) to buy food, or technology/magic that tends to develop when people have enough time thanks to not having to work hard all day for food. This is one of the goblins' problems - they got the worst lands, everything else is taken and if they wanted to resettle to a nice place that can support a high-density civilisation, they can only take it or buy it from someone else. Right-Eye's village was poor, Redcloak pointed it out to him - while Right-Eye didn't care, I doubt that place could support a huge goblin settlement the kind you speak of.

King of Nowhere

2010-02-06, 09:23 PM

I can't really take a side in it. I want too much to kick BOTH sides hard.

But for the specific of Azure city, I hope Redcloak can keep the goblin nation together. It may be the first real chance.

Or it may just turn into disaster. Or Xykon might destroy it because he's bored.
But I like to think that goblin will have their nation to live peacefully with the others.

Lupy

2010-02-06, 09:28 PM

Redcloak has always been my favorite character. :smallbiggrin:

slayerx

2010-02-06, 09:46 PM

Even if the great majority of humans wouldn't kill goblins, in a situation when there's no punishment for doing it, but a reward, a small group of humans who would kill goblins is a huge problem. No alignment penalties, no reputation penalties, you get xp, local humans who didn't mind goblins living next to them wouldn't probably defend them and risk lives for them... Survival of Right-Eye's village depended exclusively on not being found by some silly adventurers.

Actually, if the humans do grow to accept the peaceful goblins their would in a sense be reputation penalties. Local humans would shun adventers who slaughter their goblin neighbors... slowly but surely

Hundreds of goblin commoners? (I do not think they all have class levels like Right-Eye.) Not much of a problem with AoE spells. Besides, you miss one important point: resources. To have thousands living together, high-density, you need to feed them. You need lots of fertile land, or natural resources you can sell (or make into something and sell) to buy food, or technology/magic that tends to develop when people have enough time thanks to not having to work hard all day for food. This is one of the goblins' problems - they got the worst lands, everything else is taken and if they wanted to resettle to a nice place that can support a high-density civilisation, they can only take it or buy it from someone else. Right-Eye's village was poor, Redcloak pointed it out to him - while Right-Eye didn't care, I doubt that place could support a huge goblin settlement the kind you speak of.
Ahem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0197.html)
they seemed to be getting by and they numbered in the tens of thousands...

though i would add that if we were talking about "commoners"... then i would add that they would be very low level and thus not worth much exp; that makes it less attractive target for even mid-level adventurers... and the lower the level, the less AOE you're dealing with... though at the same time the goblins might be so numerous that lower level adventurers would have trouble trying to deal with hundreds of them...

really the only way your gonna convince a good group of mid-high level adventurers to destroy the village even though they would not get exp is for you convince them they are causing serious trouble and that they will be rewarded in treasure... though the less trouble the goblins cause the less likely humans would sell them out just like that

Zxo

2010-02-06, 10:09 PM

Ahem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0197.html)
they seemed to be getting by and they numbered in the tens of thousands...

We are talking about goblins. These are hobgoblins, their more powerful cousins. I bet they have conquered that place, and not have lived there peacefully for centuries, but there's no evidence for or against it that I would know of, so let's leave it. The problem of resources is explained by Redcloak in SoD as a serious one and I do not think he would be making it up - some hobgoblins who've gotten themselves a good looking valley doesn't change that.

though i would add that if we were talking about "commoners"... then i would add that they would be very low level and thus not worth much exp; that makes it less attractive target for even mid-level adventurers... and the lower the level, the less AOE you're dealing with...

That's exactly what they were created for: to allow low-level adventurers to get xp. I don't even know if adventurers for whom it would be easy would turn it down. Judging from the reaction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html) of ppl in the tavern who got a quest from Belkar to kill a single kobold, xp is a rare resource in OoTSverse.

Mystic Muse

2010-02-06, 10:20 PM

I just looked at my copy of SoD. There's nothing in there that indicates that the dark one ravaged human lands. It said he was a great battle leader but toher than that doesn't say anything. It doesn't say he instigated wars or attacked unprovoked. All it says is he built up a huge army and didn't use it. Instead he tried to make peace with the humans and they stabbed him in the back. (quite literally)

slayerx

2010-02-06, 10:27 PM

That's exactly what they were created for: to allow low-level adventurers to get xp. I don't even know if adventurers for whom it would be easy would turn it down. Judging from the reaction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html) of ppl in the tavern who got a quest from Belkar to kill a single kobold, xp is a rare resource in OoTSverse.

Yes they were, but low level adventurers don't fight the goblins by the HUNDREDS... a party of low level adventurers could take on a few dozen maybe, but get higher than that are it becomes too dangerous... you go into a city of goblins and your gonna have to be prepared to deal with a heavy retaliation... low-level's can't handle it, and higher level's would find the exp they offer to be too low to be worthwhile...

and those people from the tavern were reacting to the 200gp reward, not the exp... though granted, that particular kobld was actually probably fairly high level if he was hired to fight belkar, so he would offer a pretty good chunk of exp

Zxo

2010-02-06, 10:54 PM

Yes they were, but low level adventurers don't fight the goblins by the HUNDREDS... a party of low level adventurers could take on a few dozen maybe, but get higher than that are it becomes too dangerous... you go into a city of goblins and your gonna have to be prepared to deal with a heavy retaliation... low-level's can't handle it, and higher level's would find the exp they offer to be too low to be worthwhile...

and those people from the tavern were reacting to the 200gp reward, not the exp... though granted, that particular kobld was actually probably fairly high level if he was hired to fight belkar, so he would offer a pretty good chunk of exp

One of the adventurers is shouting "I need the XP", so it clearly matters.
(Hired? It was the son of the guy who was killed by Belkar)

Draconi Redfir

2010-02-07, 12:21 AM

i think we all need to realize something.

pepole, wether goblinoid or not. are usually afraid of what they dont know about, this causes raceisum. wich causes accusaitions (Z0mg my farm is dead! it hasent rained in two weeks, but those two goblins over their are eating some corn! THEY MUST HAVE STOLEN IT!) wich leads to arguements (dude we never stole your corn! we paied for it with our own money!) wich leads to rage ( you wok on my nehbors farm! your helping my competitor!) wich leads to more rage (dude stop being a jerk to us! its not like we put you out of buisness or anything!) wich leads to ETC.

three weeks later the farmer goes out of buisness. out of spite he accuses the goblins of doing it, and the cycle starts anew.

.... sometimes i wonder if im actually contributeing to anything, or just re-saying whats allready been said....

pepole fear what they dont know.

pepole are often unwilling to get to know what they dont know

coinceidences can be dangerus when something pepole dont know about is invloved. (i.e. Goblins eating corn while a corn-farmers farm is dead)

... and then here i somehow get back into the cycle of hatred thing... were was i going with this? o.0

hamishspence

2010-02-07, 01:16 PM

According to War & XPs (bonus strip 320a), the hobgoblins and Azure City have been fighting for some time before Redcloak turned up:

General: Trust me, the paladins and the regular army of the Azurites have kept us penned up in these mountains for almost 30 years.

Apparently the fact that Redcloak & Xykon made them mobilize 90% of their population, made a big difference to their ability to win the war.

That said, neighbouring nations were far from happy with Azure City- back of War & XPs:

Because paladins on the Lord's staff have pursued many individuals into other countries, however, Azure City has recently developed a repution for violating sovereign nations in what are perceived as "personal grudges".

So it's worth remembering, that the hobgoblins have reasons to want to invade Azure City that go beyond The Plan, and beyond any "natural desire to crush other nations underfoot"

Morthis

2010-02-07, 04:10 PM

Even by doing that, I'm not sure if Right-eye's situation if Xykon had never found him was ultimately tenable.

Right, you're not sure, yet somehow you know the next sequence of events, which paints a picture that supports your argument. How convenient.

As so many others already said, I can sympathize with his goals, but the way he attempts to achieve them is horrible. The biggest strike against him, as far as I'm concerned, is from the end of SoD.

SoD

He shows pretty much absolutely no concern for the fact that Right-Eye's entire family got wiped out. Right-Eye built up a village, had a family, lived like this for 17 years, and then he loses it all, and RC is not even sympathetic to RE's loss. I just can't feel sorry or really support someone who is so indifferent to his brother's sorrow, especially when RC was partially responsible for those deaths in the first place.

Water-Smurf

2010-02-07, 05:46 PM

He shows pretty much absolutely no concern for the fact that Right-Eye's entire family got wiped out. Right-Eye built up a village, had a family, lived like this for 17 years, and then he loses it all, and RC is not even sympathetic to RE's loss. I just can't feel sorry or really support someone who is so indifferent to his brother's sorrow, especially when RC was partially responsible for those deaths in the first place.

I didn't really get that from that part of the book. It had happened at least three months before, and Redcloak and Right-Eye have shown that they're not really into big emotional displays for each other, and Right-Eye showed pretty heavy signs of being estranged and resentful of Redcloak; I think that Redcloak cared about the death of his family (after all, they were his family too, and he seemed to care about them, if not as deeply as Right-Eye), but I think that he thought that any overt show of sympathy or sorrow would have gotten Right-Eye angry. He was wrong about that, but I got the sense that he felt that way.

veti

2010-02-07, 06:32 PM

International relations don't work that way.

By causing such fierce bloodshed and coming out on top, Redcloak has earned fear, yes, but hatred as well. Not respect. That's what conquering does. If he had been a just conqueror and had allowed humans equal rights and required little from them besides following his laws and paying his taxes, as the Romans did, then after a while, people would respect him and say that the goblin nation was a just one. But he didn't do that.

Water-Smurf, I've been filled with admiration for your posts in this thread. But here I think you are giving a somewhat oversimplified view of conquerors and conquerees.

The goblins want land, and they picked Azure City to focus on this time around. But there were already people living there. So their choices are:

Kill the humans.
Enslave them.
Throw them out - give them (say) 1 week to get off your land, after which they'll be hunted down and either killed or enslaved.
Let them stay, as a heavily discriminated-against ethnic group that will soon find themselves a minority in their own country. (At worst this is essentially the same as slavery. At best, it means herding them onto some small, barren area and calling it a "reservation" or "homeland".)

It's not hard to find examples of all these approaches from our (Earth's) own history. If you care to research them, I think you'll find that the approaches that seem more humane, in practice breed just as much resentment as the more draconian ones.

What's not an option, however, is simply replacing the government, passing a few different laws, and collecting taxes. I mean, Reddy has to do all those things, sure - but that in itself isn't enough to create a goblin homeland. (A goblin bureaucracy, yes.) They'd still need somewhere nice to live.

SoC175

2010-02-07, 06:39 PM

huh... i wonder why the human leaders reacted to the dark one as they did... it is so very strange... why would they have any hard feelings against a goblin who has waged war against the humans, and is only using diplomacy when he feels he has the upperhand and that the humans have no choice to give in to his demands... it is so very strange Which is acutally incorrect. The Dark One never waged any war against the humans. He merely united the goblionid tribes and then went to talk to the humans. There was no " brilliant and savage campaign against the northern countries." before he attempted to talk

fact of the matter is that there was ABSOLUTELY NO WAY humans were going to except peaceful coexistance with the dark one's goblins after he had brutally slaughtered thousands of humans. They would have nothing but pure hate for him
Turned out they have nothing but pure hate for him anyway, as they murdered him although his army had not slain a single human. Now the over a million humans slain after the murder are the direct result of the human's betrayal

Fact is, when the dark one choose to use WAR, power, and fear as his method of diplomacy,
No, he didn't. Only the humans did.

he lost all credibility in making a bid for peaceful coexistence.
So you are saying that RC and the ascended DO are totally right? Since humans lost all credibility in making a bid for a peacefull coexistence after starting the war against the united goblinoids with the murder of the Dark One?