Monk rebalanced to the baseline of cheesy casters.

[FishAreWet]

the intent here is somewhat similar to Frank & K's Tome series. Instead of the work to power down casting, you improve marital classes significantly. It is also an attempt to promote single class characters at least to a level of viability.

BAB is at a consistent -5. (ex. +20/+15/+15/+15)
All clerics are cloistered. They don't get the free Knowledge domain.
DIVINE POWER DOES NOT EXIST
Shambling mounds do not exist.
Undead are not immune to mind-affecting spells.
Initiate of Mystra only allows you to cast, it doesn't protect ongoing effects.
No Domain Wizards.
StP Erudite does not exist.
Archivists cannot cast from Alternate Source Spelled Scrolls
Planar Shepard, Master Trasmogrist, Master of Many Forms aren't real. Want to play one? Lets talk about it.
Sanctum Spell cannot be used for items.
Greenbound summoning is a +3 metamagic.
Leadership is banned.
Item familiars are banned.
Aptitude can be used on anything that allows for ONE weapon.
Reserves of Strenght only lets you break CL cap by 3.
Contingencies aren't real.
The generic Polymorph line is banned. (anything allowing a inspecific forms) ((really want it? lets talk about it))
Genesis can't be used for time.
Wish == Miracle.
Cunsumptive Field cannot stack itself.
Forced Dream, Love's Pain, Planar Binding, Planar Ally, Command Undead.
Psionic Lion's Charge is dureation: 1 rouind.
IHS is awesome.
Explosive Runes are banned.
Simulacrum is banned.
Locate City bomb doesn't work because i don't care.
Acorn of Far Travel only allows you to act as if in a Forest for Druid/Ranger spells. that's it.
You cannot be immune to Celerity's Daze.
Nightsticks don't stack.
Thoughtbottle doesn't work.
Vorpal is stupid.
Cantrips are at will.
iTWF and gTWF doesn't exist. They come for free with TWF.
Death effects bring you to -1 HP.
As a general statement, you cannot immune to things. Instead, you get a +20 to resist the effect. And anything that doesn't grant a save, will.

My Problem with the Monk: Lack of in combat and out of combat options. That sums it up. They just can't do much. For this reason, they were the first class we tackled.

Goal: To give the monk both ways to shine in and out of combat.
How I believe I reach that goal:
-Diamond Mind rework puts him back in the Defense Powerhouse he was meant to be.
-Wis to physical skills and damage solve the huge MAD problems.
-Wis to physical skills + flight allows him to shine early. He might not fly till late levels but (Ranks+Str+Wis)*3 is going to get you really far on a Jump check.
-Astral Projection when the casters get it. Gives him the second life abilities that they get. But he gets them for free. But only for himself.
-Healing as a swift action allows for better action economy and near immunity to ability damage out of combat.
-Dimension Doors and movement afterwards may act as a pseudo Freedom of Movement to reach casters or avoid AoO.
-Picking the save for Stunning Fist allows for many more options, but against those regularly immune to stuns and those who have great Fort saves.
--Rework of Quivering Palm allows for a larger dominance in combat.

My goal isn't to make an offensive powerhouse, nor a defensive powerhouse. But one strong in both with utility options. How do you think I did?

d8 HD
4+ Skill Points
Autohypnosis is added to skills.
General Martial Weapon Proficiency + the existing random Exotics.
Here is the Link. (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AmEJIC5QMAxldFRiVlNrTEotQ04zN2U5RnplTUVlT Wc&hl=en)

Here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=183778) is what one looks like at 20 with some good feat choices. Assumes 32 point buy.

[Realms of Chaos]

I'm afraid that your goal to bring the monk up to the level of "cheesy spellcasters" (which I'm taking to mean tier 1 classes) is not really viable due to the way in which the tier system measures classes.

Tier 1 classes are Tier 1 because they are capable to responding to almost any task with equal ease (often needing a bit of preparation to do so) and can stop following the DM's plans for the campaign whenever they want (planeshifting, extreme divination, etc.)
Tier 2 classes, however, are Tier 2 because they are the absolute peak of power in what they do but may have problems adapting to other tasks (like the sorcerer). As has been said in the past, that is what may make Tier 2 the hardest of all classes to DM.

Making the monk a tier 1 class isn't really feasible unless you let the monk start rewriting reality. Making it a tier 2 class is far easier but it raises the question of what you want the monk to be best at doing.

What I'd personally suggest for the monk is to automatically grant the monk the full benefits of Vow of Poverty so long as they aren't using weaponry or armor, even if they possess wealth or magical items. Instead of bonus exalted feats, give a list of bonus monk feats to choose from (this replaces the normal bonus feats at levels 1, 2, and 6). Throw in the ability to fly at some point (perhaps with an earlier ability to use air walk) and you have yourself a very, very good class. It completely overshadows the fighter but it gains decent versatility.

[T.G. Oskar]

BAB is at a consistent -5. (ex. +20/+15/+15/+15)
All clerics are cloistered. They don't get the free Knowledge domain.
DIVINE POWER DOES NOT EXIST
Shambling mounds do not exist.
Undead are not immune to mind-affecting spells.
Initiate of Mystra only allows you to cast, it doesn't protect ongoing effects.
No Domain Wizards.
StP Erudite does not exist.
Archivists cannot cast from Alternate Source Spelled Scrolls
Planar Shepard, Master Trasmogrist, Master of Many Forms aren't real. Want to play one? Lets talk about it.
Sanctum Spell cannot be used for items.
Greenbound summoning is a +3 metamagic.
Leadership is banned.
Item familiars are banned.
Aptitude can be used on anything that allows for ONE weapon.
Reserves of Strenght only lets you break CL cap by 3.
Contingencies aren't real.
The generic Polymorph line is banned. (anything allowing a inspecific forms) ((really want it? lets talk about it))
Genesis can't be used for time.
Wish == Miracle.
Cunsumptive Field cannot stack itself.
Forced Dream, Love's Pain, Planar Binding, Planar Ally, Command Undead.
Psionic Lion's Charge is dureation: 1 rouind.
IHS is awesome.
Explosive Runes are banned.
Simulacrum is banned.
Locate City bomb doesn't work because i don't care.
Acorn of Far Travel only allows you to act as if in a Forest for Druid/Ranger spells. that's it.
You cannot be immune to Celerity's Daze.
Nightsticks don't stack.
Thoughtbottle doesn't work.
Vorpal is stupid.
Cantrips are at will.
iTWF and gTWF doesn't exist. They come for free with TWF.
Death effects bring you to -1 HP.
As a general statement, you cannot immune to things. Instead, you get a +20 to resist the effect. And anything that doesn't grant a save, will.

You know, that looks so suspiciously close to mish-mashing the Test of Spite banlist along with a few suspiciously odd homebrewed list that...might as well take the ToS list and trespass it here... Heck, how about I give you a hand (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7503784&postcount=2) on it?


My Problem with the Monk: Lack of in combat and out of combat options. That sums it up. They just can't do much. For this reason, they were the first class we tackled.

Goal: To give the monk both ways to shine in and out of combat.
How I believe I reach that goal:
-Diamond Mind rework puts him back in the Defense Powerhouse he was meant to be.
-Wis to physical skills and damage solve the huge MAD problems.
-Wis to physical skills + flight allows him to shine early. He might not fly till late levels but (Ranks+Str+Wis)*3 is going to get you really far on a Jump check.
-Astral Projection when the casters get it. Gives him the second life abilities that they get. But he gets them for free. But only for himself.
-Healing as a swift action allows for better action economy and near immunity to ability damage out of combat.
-Dimension Doors and movement afterwards may act as a pseudo Freedom of Movement to reach casters or avoid AoO.
-Picking the save for Stunning Fist allows for many more options, but against those regularly immune to stuns and those who have great Fort saves.
--Rework of Quivering Palm allows for a larger dominance in combat.

My goal isn't to make an offensive powerhouse, nor a defensive powerhouse. But one strong in both with utility options. How do you think I did?

d8 HD
4+ Skill Points
Autohypnosis is added to skills.
General Martial Weapon Proficiency + the existing random Exotics.
Here is the Link. (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AmEJIC5QMAxldFRiVlNrTEotQ04zN2U5RnplTUVlT Wc&hl=en)

I've seen a lot of Monk fixes and rewrites, Heck, I actually worked on one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7503784&postcount=2)... I can't (and shouldn't) compare my design to yours, since it may sound biased, but there's a lot of other Monk homebrews out there that try to tackle the problem in different ways. The list you provided is mostly an enhancement to what the Monk already has, but it doesn't grant it a specific niche to carry; it ends up being roughly most of the same. To explain further:

The Diamond Body as explained still doesn't beat the problems of Spell Resistance: aka, the fact that it's pretty much always active and doesn't discriminate between an ally spell and a foe spell. The progression is also off-scale: it's stronger at the end, sure, but just exactly how strong? Baseline Monk is 10+class level; it's meant to be solid, since it's roughly meant to deal with casters of equal CL and no CL boosters, but WotC didn't account for how many CL boosters you could stack. So, making SR much higher may seem like a boost, but you're just working that upon an apparently unrealistic CL growth, even if you end up with a cadre of Wizards that all know Assay Spell Resistance. As a guideline: if you can do an ability that allows you to, no matter what happens, predict the result of the opposed CL so that a character is forced to roll 12 or higher, you're doing it right. Even 11 or higher is doing it right.
Mind and Body is gained a tad too late. By the time you get it, you'll be suffering those first few levels. Wis to attack and damage from first level is not a bad idea, actually; in fact, it's the best way to allow Wis to shine. I take your intention is "add Wis to Str/Dex" instead of "Wis replaces Str and Dex", which is potentially dangerous since it invites dipping instead of staying. Since that's also meant to go for all skill checks, ability checks, and combat maneuvers, it means it doesn't exactly solve MAD so as to actually enforce it.
A Wizard can get a simple Fly spell at 5th level. A Druid or Cleric gets Air Walk at about 7th. You start flying, poorly, at 12th and you still need to land. Even an Air Walk-based ability would have worked much better.
Astral Projection is a cheesy trick from Wizards that Monks certainly could get with some effort, but not actually need. Effectively, their Etherealness ability through Empty Body works similarly, but it has its own amount of troubles. Astral Projection is not exactly game-breaking even if it does grant a safeguard to your life, since if you're on the Astral Plane for, say, almost forever, someone's gonna get you and slay you while you're happily sleeping. Don't get misguided by cheesy tricks; Wizards are good for more than just being capable of Astrally Project. Heck, a Psychic Warrior can do something along those lines at 1st level, IIRC. That, or Psions.
So you decide to actually do something reasonable and add your Wis modifier to the Monk level for self-healing. And seek to add a swift action in order to be healed and still be capable of doing something. That's...nice, including the added "Restoration" effect, but a good Monk should never need to use this ability in midst of combat. Still, I'll grant it's a good move.
Dim Door -> Freedom of Movement is kinda non-sequitur. Your intention is to use Dimension Door and move freely to make an attack, right? Make it a move action and remove the restrictions on not being able to attack afterwards. Freedom of Movement is a powerful ability, one that can be almost left alone since the Monk has Escape Artist, which is part of the ability turned into a skill. Still, it doesn't seem you get the point of FoM: the idea is that FoM blocks all kinds of abilities that hinder movement, and that is as varied as evading a Web spell or evading a Hold Monster spell. You still get Attacks of Opportunity, the idea is that you don't get held by a grapple or spell or supernatural ability or effect. The problem with DD is that it's a spell that costs a standard action to use and prevents you from taking any other action afterwards (even Swift Actions and talking!!!) Not even Freedom of Movement can stop actually ending a turn. I learned that the easy way, fortunately. It seems that you managed to solve that problem, but...you can make FoM a completely different ability.
Stunning Fist is a feat, not a Monk ability. It's effectively, like the Druid's Natural Spell feat, an ability that works different on a Monk compared to anyone else. The ability to use "Stunning" Fist as a Will-based Daze ability is a good idea, but it would be better if you fixed the feat instead of making it a forced ability. After all, perhaps not all Monks like to use Stunning Fist? It...doesn't solve much, actually. The feats that depend on Stunning Fist most of the time imply uselessness if the character is immune to stun, so you'll only get one new ability that could be made as a new feat. Which reminds me...Shield Charge does something similar.
Quivering Palm is an awesome ability. Perhaps one that, as you deducted, would have been better as an enhancement to Stunning Fist. So you intend to make it a Save or Suck ability, with staggering instead of slowing I gather? It's a far more powerful ability, I can reckon that, and actually useful since it's a SoSuck (and not a bizarre SoD). Except...as it's written, the death effect seems to be gone altogether. It's either you fail the save and HP regen gets disabled, or succeed and get staggered. I'd actually, by apparent RAW, fail the save if I had FoM. It needs some rewriting, but as it stands, it seems nerfed unless the intention is to keep the "one-hit kill effect".

As for your request:
There are very few or limited actual boosts to the class. Most are normal Monk fixes (use Wis for nearly everything, some flight skill), but it doesn't exactly follow the offensive/defensive powerhouse idea you seek. For example, you can go full Wis and get a lot of benefits, but your Fort will be the weaker of the saves trio unless you consider Con. Then, since you mostly made Wis an addition instead of a replacement to Str and Dex, you mostly encourage MAD or at least getting some boosts later on, with the intention of getting more bang for your buck. Making it a very general intention of adding Wis to Strength checks and Dexterity checks (including but not limited to Initiative rolls and Reflex saving throws) doesn't help that much; you should consider thinking when it's a good moment to add each ability. Using combat maneuvers on creatures is still not as effective; you still can't grow bigger and negate size penalties on creatures, which is a big problem (specifically on grapple). Finally, everything seems poorly balanced; most of the problems with Monk still remain, including and not limited to lack of synergy between movement and attack, slight weakness on combat maneuvers, and a mish-mash of abilities without a clear objective in mind.

RoC has a good point on mind: if the intention is to make it "Tier 1" as intended by Jaron, it has to do far much more. By 20th level, a Monk should have an ability that can virtually solve anything, not just being mechanically and point-by-point better than other classes. You can make a more effective class by trying to get a much more reasonable "balance" point (I'd hear of people that say D&D has no balance, but you can make it workable and reasonable in terms of how it progresses alongside with other classes). One good way to make the Monk a Tier 1 class is actually understanding what makes Tier 1 classes such. Another is realizing that Tier systems don't aid much on homebrewing, but class intention and how does it fulfill that intention.

[FishAreWet]

You know, that looks so suspiciously close to mish-mashing the Test of Spite banlist along with a few suspiciously odd homebrewed list that...might as well take the ToS list and trespass it here... Heck, how about I give you a hand (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7503784&postcount=2) on it?

I did use it partially for my general rules. I disagree with some of the rules so I picked certain ones.


The Diamond Body as explained still doesn't beat the problems of Spell Resistance: aka, the fact that it's pretty much always active and doesn't discriminate between an ally spell and a foe spell. The progression is also off-scale: it's stronger at the end, sure, but just exactly how strong? Baseline Monk is 10+class level; it's meant to be solid, since it's roughly meant to deal with casters of equal CL and no CL boosters, but WotC didn't account for how many CL boosters you could stack. So, making SR much higher may seem like a boost, but you're just working that upon an apparently unrealistic CL growth, even if you end up with a cadre of Wizards that all know Assay Spell Resistance. As a guideline: if you can do an ability that allows you to, no matter what happens, predict the result of the opposed CL so that a character is forced to roll 12 or higher, you're doing it right. Even 11 or higher is doing it right.
At level 20 your SR is 35 with an immediate action to add Wis. Do you think it should be bumped to 40? What amount would made it strong? What about a clause to lower it as a free action? I must say, lowering SR is something that gets handwaved in almost every game I've ever played and I simply forgot about it.


Mind and Body is gained a tad too late. By the time you get it, you'll be suffering those first few levels. Wis to attack and damage from first level is not a bad idea, actually; in fact, it's the best way to allow Wis to shine. I take your intention is "add Wis to Str/Dex" instead of "Wis replaces Str and Dex", which is potentially dangerous since it invites dipping instead of staying. Since that's also meant to go for all skill checks, ability checks, and combat maneuvers, it means it doesn't exactly solve MAD so as to actually enforce it.
I was worried about dipping, that's why I added it so late. Replace instead of add is a good idea. Gotcha.


A Wizard can get a simple Fly spell at 5th level. A Druid or Cleric gets Air Walk at about 7th. You start flying, poorly, at 12th and you still need to land. Even an Air Walk-based ability would have worked much better.

I was worried about this. I reworked the progression, thoughts?


Astral Projection is a cheesy trick from Wizards that Monks certainly could get with some effort, but not actually need. Effectively, their Etherealness ability through Empty Body works similarly, but it has its own amount of troubles. Astral Projection is not exactly game-breaking even if it does grant a safeguard to your life, since if you're on the Astral Plane for, say, almost forever, someone's gonna get you and slay you while you're happily sleeping. Don't get misguided by cheesy tricks; Wizards are good for more than just being capable of Astrally Project. Heck, a Psychic Warrior can do something along those lines at 1st level, IIRC. That, or Psions.

I was considering Greater Blink and Astral Projection. I know that it's not that great of an ability, but I thought the mechanic lends itself well to Monks and it would be powerful as a late level ability. Thoughts on Greater Blink?


So you decide to actually do something reasonable and add your Wis modifier to the Monk level for self-healing. And seek to add a swift action in order to be healed and still be capable of doing something. That's...nice, including the added "Restoration" effect, but a good Monk should never need to use this ability in midst of combat. Still, I'll grant it's a good move.

I contest that at low level it would actually be really helpful. It's also an attempt to avoid Immunities in play.


Dim Door -> Freedom of Movement is kinda non-sequitur. Your intention is to use Dimension Door and move freely to make an attack, right? Make it a move action and remove the restrictions on not being able to attack afterwards. Freedom of Movement is a powerful ability, one that can be almost left alone since the Monk has Escape Artist, which is part of the ability turned into a skill. Still, it doesn't seem you get the point of FoM: the idea is that FoM blocks all kinds of abilities that hinder movement, and that is as varied as evading a Web spell or evading a Hold Monster spell. You still get Attacks of Opportunity, the idea is that you don't get held by a grapple or spell or supernatural ability or effect. The problem with DD is that it's a spell that costs a standard action to use and prevents you from taking any other action afterwards (even Swift Actions and talking!!!) Not even Freedom of Movement can stop actually ending a turn. I learned that the easy way, fortunately. It seems that you managed to solve that problem, but...you can make FoM a completely different ability.

Maybe it's not clear in the text, I'll fix that. The Monk ability to replicate Dimension Door is a Move Action that you may act after.


Stunning Fist is a feat, not a Monk ability. It's effectively, like the Druid's Natural Spell feat, an ability that works different on a Monk compared to anyone else. The ability to use "Stunning" Fist as a Will-based Daze ability is a good idea, but it would be better if you fixed the feat instead of making it a forced ability. After all, perhaps not all Monks like to use Stunning Fist? It...doesn't solve much, actually. The feats that depend on Stunning Fist most of the time imply uselessness if the character is immune to stun, so you'll only get one new ability that could be made as a new feat. Which reminds me...Shield Charge does something similar.

It could be a feat, but like IUS, this is a special Monk buff to a feat. I don't understand why giving it as a class feature is a bad thing. Please expand on this.


Quivering Palm is an awesome ability. Perhaps one that, as you deducted, would have been better as an enhancement to Stunning Fist. So you intend to make it a Save or Suck ability, with staggering instead of slowing I gather? It's a far more powerful ability, I can reckon that, and actually useful since it's a SoSuck (and not a bizarre SoD). Except...as it's written, the death effect seems to be gone altogether. It's either you fail the save and HP regen gets disabled, or succeed and get staggered. I'd actually, by apparent RAW, fail the save if I had FoM. It needs some rewriting, but as it stands, it seems nerfed unless the intention is to keep the "one-hit kill effect".

Yes, the intention was those ability + the death effect.


As for your request:
There are very few or limited actual boosts to the class. Most are normal Monk fixes (use Wis for nearly everything, some flight skill), but it doesn't exactly follow the offensive/defensive powerhouse idea you seek. For example, you can go full Wis and get a lot of benefits, but your Fort will be the weaker of the saves trio unless you consider Con. Then, since you mostly made Wis an addition instead of a replacement to Str and Dex, you mostly encourage MAD or at least getting some boosts later on, with the intention of getting more bang for your buck. Making it a very general intention of adding Wis to Strength checks and Dexterity checks (including but not limited to Initiative rolls and Reflex saving throws) doesn't help that much; you should consider thinking when it's a good moment to add each ability. Using combat maneuvers on creatures is still not as effective; you still can't grow bigger and negate size penalties on creatures, which is a big problem (specifically on grapple). Finally, everything seems poorly balanced; most of the problems with Monk still remain, including and not limited to lack of synergy between movement and attack, slight weakness on combat maneuvers, and a mish-mash of abilities without a clear objective in mind.

RoC has a good point on mind: if the intention is to make it "Tier 1" as intended by Jaron, it has to do far much more. By 20th level, a Monk should have an ability that can virtually solve anything, not just being mechanically and point-by-point better than other classes. You can make a more effective class by trying to get a much more reasonable "balance" point (I'd hear of people that say D&D has no balance, but you can make it workable and reasonable in terms of how it progresses alongside with other classes). One good way to make the Monk a Tier 1 class is actually understanding what makes Tier 1 classes such. Another is realizing that Tier systems don't aid much on homebrewing, but class intention and how does it fulfill that intention.

I'll admit, this is my first attempt at this. I think you both have a good point about not actually making this a tier 1. I'm just not sure how to do that without giving it spellcasting. Maybe I'll look into other monk fixes to get some ideas.

[jiriku]

Judging from your ban list, you're not actually all that fond of cheesy casters. So Tier 1 is out.

Tier 3 is the usual "best" balance point that people aim for when rebalancing a class.

The defining characteristic of most Tier 3 classes is that at each new level, they don't gain just a single new class feature, but instead can select from a menu of options (typically martial maneuvers, spells, or psionics). As long as you're adding a fixed class feature at each new level, you're creating a Tier 4 class.