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Eldan
2010-02-09, 05:37 AM
Okay. For the Reworking Core Spells project, I'm currently looking at Polymorph.

I'm also reworking alter self, in a way that you can choose from a list of specific boni, more as you level up.


Now, what I want to do with Polymorph is something similar: to retain it's versatility, I want to give a list of abilities it can give. The spell would then be written in a way about like this: choose 3 abilities from this list, one more per X caster levels. What should be one the list?

*Physical ability score increases. I'm thinking about +6 for this level.
*Size changes: 2 categories up or down.
*Natural armor. +4, +6? What's okay here?
*Movement modes: wings with average maneuverability, swim speed, climb speed.
*Senses: Scent, Tremorsense, others?
*Utility: Water breathing, what else?


Basically, I need some ideas and suggestions for what Polymorph should give to be okay for a forth level spell, especially utility powers.

Anonymouswizard
2010-02-09, 11:19 AM
Okay. For the Reworking Core Spells project, I'm currently looking at Polymorph.

I'm also reworking alter self, in a way that you can choose from a list of specific boni, more as you level up.


Now, what I want to do with Polymorph is something similar: to retain it's versatility, I want to give a list of abilities it can give. The spell would then be written in a way about like this: choose 3 abilities from this list, one more per X caster levels. What should be one the list?

*Physical ability score increases. I'm thinking about +6 for this level.
*Size changes: 2 categories up or down.
*Natural armor. +4, +6? What's okay here?
*Movement modes: wings with average maneuverability, swim speed, climb speed.
*Senses: Scent, Tremorsense, others?
*Utility: Water breathing, what else?


Basically, I need some ideas and suggestions for what Polymorph should give to be okay for a forth level spell, especially utility powers.

Go with polymorph self and polymorph other. Other than that, dunno

Drolyt
2010-02-09, 12:06 PM
Okay. For the Reworking Core Spells project, I'm currently looking at Polymorph.

I'm also reworking alter self, in a way that you can choose from a list of specific boni, more as you level up.


Now, what I want to do with Polymorph is something similar: to retain it's versatility, I want to give a list of abilities it can give. The spell would then be written in a way about like this: choose 3 abilities from this list, one more per X caster levels. What should be one the list?

*Physical ability score increases. I'm thinking about +6 for this level.
*Size changes: 2 categories up or down.
*Natural armor. +4, +6? What's okay here?
*Movement modes: wings with average maneuverability, swim speed, climb speed.
*Senses: Scent, Tremorsense, others?
*Utility: Water breathing, what else?


Basically, I need some ideas and suggestions for what Polymorph should give to be okay for a forth level spell, especially utility powers.

Make the various changes depend on your caster level. So 20th level casters can be colossal, 9th level casters cannot. Same for movement modes, higher level casters can get faster speeds. As for natural armor, how high should depend on whether magic items are allowed. If you design the spell to more strictly exclude magic items then you should allow full natural armor bonus from the transformed creature. Also I'm not opposed to allowing special attacks like breath weapons, as long as they are limited to what a 4th level spell should reasonably be able to do.

Oslecamo
2010-02-09, 12:27 PM
Eerr, use the pathfinder polymorph? It's pretty much what you described.

Lysander
2010-02-09, 12:30 PM
*Physical ability score increases. I'm thinking about +6 for this level.
*Size changes: 2 categories up or down.
*Natural armor. +4, +6? What's okay here?
*Movement modes: wings with average maneuverability, swim speed, climb speed.
*Senses: Scent, Tremorsense, others?
*Utility: Water breathing, what else?



Natural attacks seem mandatory. Claws, teeth, pincers, tentacles, etc.

Movement modes should include burrowing.

Blindsight (echolocation), low-light vision

Utility: A list of feats like track, alertness, etc.

One possibility is to limit polymorph to animal shapes alone. Rich's system has separate spells for animal shapes, elemental shapes, etc.

Drolyt
2010-02-09, 12:38 PM
Natural attacks seem mandatory. Claws, teeth, pincers, tentacles, etc.

Movement modes should include burrowing.

Blindsight (echolocation), low-light vision

Utility: A list of feats like track, alertness, etc.

One possibility is to limit polymorph to animal shapes alone. Rich's system has separate spells for animal shapes, elemental shapes, etc.

The separate spells thing isn't a bad idea. If anything though the Giant's version is far too limiting. I like the pick and choose abilities idea better than what he did. But yeah, limiting lower level spells to just animals makes sense (actually in fiction the only transformations I've ever seen are to animal, to outsider, and to dragon, and the latter two make sense as higher level spells).

lesser_minion
2010-02-09, 01:33 PM
Eerr, use the pathfinder polymorph? It's pretty much what you described.

No, it very much isn't. We're re-writing it to be better balanced by going back to the good version of Alter Self and making Polymorph into a souped-up version of that.

Eldan
2010-02-09, 01:39 PM
Natural attacks seem mandatory. Claws, teeth, pincers, tentacles, etc.

Movement modes should include burrowing.

Blindsight (echolocation), low-light vision

Utility: A list of feats like track, alertness, etc.

One possibility is to limit polymorph to animal shapes alone. Rich's system has separate spells for animal shapes, elemental shapes, etc.

Right. I forgot natural weapons. And I'm thinking I'm making it rather freeform, actually. You choose your boni from a list, then get a form which fits it.

Drolyt
2010-02-09, 01:42 PM
Right. I forgot natural weapons. And I'm thinking I'm making it rather freeform, actually. You choose your boni from a list, then get a form which fits it.

Have you considered allowing them to take any form, regardless of the actual abilities gained? For example you could take the form of a rat and gain a breath weapon or flight. It would be a great way to take enemies by surprise. Of course some things might depend completely on the form you take, for example you probably need wings to fly, but I suppose you could then make a winged rat. Basing the abilities you get on monster manual entries was the biggest problem with the old system after all.

Eldan
2010-02-09, 01:46 PM
Some things would of course make more sense than others. I mean, earth worm shape just doesn't let you fly by natural means. Others, sure. Rats with blindsight can kind off work.

Lysander
2010-02-09, 02:10 PM
One option I personally like is splitting up Polymorph into multiple spells that turn you into a single specific shape. For example "Bear Shape" or "Raven Shape" or "Manticore Shape" could all be individual spells. The nice thing about this is that you can adjust the spell level according to the new form's power. Weaker animals could be level 2 or 3 spells. Magical beasts and outsiders could be higher levels.

You lose flexibility, but it would resolve a lot of balance issues and make it easier for the DM to plan things out. Plus, magicians in fiction are often limited to one thematic shape: wolf, owl, snake, etc. rather than turning into whatever they want. Only being able to turn into the shapes you have spells for makes sense.

Oslecamo
2010-02-09, 02:18 PM
No, it very much isn't. We're re-writing it to be better balanced by going back to the good version of Alter Self and making Polymorph into a souped-up version of that.

What good version of alter self? The 3.0 one that hardly gave any mechanical bonus?

Anyway, let's see if I get this right now, you're trying to make a spell that instead of copying a specific monster of your choice, it let's you create your own custom monster.

My sugestion then:pick astral construct psionic power, wich is basicaly "create your own monster", and work from there. You've got a list of abilities to choose from and several levels of power.

Istari
2010-02-09, 02:19 PM
One option I personally like is splitting up Polymorph into multiple spells that turn you into a single specific shape. For example "Bear Shape" or "Raven Shape" or "Manticore Shape" could all be individual spells. The nice thing about this is that you can adjust the spell level according to the new form's power. Weaker animals could be level 2 or 3 spells. Magical beasts and outsiders could be higher levels.

You lose flexibility, but it would resolve a lot of balance issues and make it easier for the DM to plan things out. Plus, magicians in fiction are often limited to one thematic shape: wolf, owl, snake, etc. rather than turning into whatever they want. Only being able to turn into the shapes you have spells for makes sense.

That completely screws over Sorcerers though

Yakk
2010-02-09, 02:21 PM
Have a different polymorph spell for each destination type.

Balance each individually.

For detrimental versions, differences between the target and the destination type should give bonuses to saves/etc.

So "polymorph self into red dragon" would be a spell. A damn good spell at that!

Drolyt
2010-02-09, 02:29 PM
You could do both a general polymorph spell and several more specific spells. For example, "Turn into Adult Red Dragon" could be a spell, but why not just make it "Turn into Adult Dragon"? The other spells could be similar, allowing for example "Turn into Animal" to choose from several different shapes, specifying which bonuses you get in each shape. Then you would have polymorph, with lesser and greater versions, that are more versatile in that you can choose any polymorph effect of lower level (so if "Turn into Animal" and "Turn into Magical Beast, Lesser" are third level, Lesser Polymorph at 4th level could duplicate both of them, but not "Turn into Magical Beast, Greater"). Isn't that kind of how pathfinder works? Then Shapechange would be the ultimate polymorph spell that could duplicate any lower level one and also allow a couple of new forms.

Eldan
2010-02-09, 02:33 PM
It is, however, just about the opposite of what I want to achieve...
I like versatile abilities. Giving only a few forms defeats the purpose, in my eyes.

lesser_minion
2010-02-09, 02:35 PM
What good version of alter self? The 3.0 one that hardly gave any mechanical bonus?

The 3.0 one was already strong enough and versatile enough. The decision to buff it was absolutely crazy, especially considering the nightmare that resulted.


Anyway, let's see if I get this right now, you're trying to make a spell that instead of copying a specific monster of your choice, it let's you create your own custom monster.

My sugestion then:pick astral construct psionic power, wich is basicaly "create your own monster", and work from there. You've got a list of abilities to choose from and several levels of power.

That's pretty much what Eldan is doing, I think.

DracoDei
2010-02-09, 02:45 PM
Basing the abilities you get on monster manual entries was the biggest problem with the old system after all.

I consider any solution that doesn't base the abilities on the monster manual entries (at least for lower level verisions) to be something I would never allow in my games. It completely ruins the flavor.

Drolyt
2010-02-09, 02:58 PM
I consider any solution that doesn't base the abilities on the monster manual entries (at least for lower level verisions) to be something I would never allow in my games. It completely ruins the flavor.

Ok, then you have a few options: 1. Leave polymorph effects completely broken 2. Make polymorph effects completely worthless spells that only give you some of the abilities of the target in order to ensure they can't be abused 3. Only allow specific forms, either through individual spells or by giving Polymorph spells a list of what forms you can assume in order to maintain balance. 4. Rewrite all monster entries so that HD == CR == ECL and no monsters have abusable abilities you can gain with polymorph. 5. Along with any of the above, don't allow spells/magic items when polymorphed. 6. There are probably other options.

1 is obviously what we are trying to fix. 2 is more or less what the Giant did, if you haven't read it see Gaming to the left. 3 is probably the easiest thing to balance. 4 would have been the best solution if WotC would have done it from the beginning, but it would be a lot of work to do now. 5 should help a little.

At any rate I don't see what the problem is with a polymorph spell that just allows you to choose abilities and make your own form, but maybe both options should be available.

Yakk
2010-02-09, 03:01 PM
The resulting Polymorph spell will be versatile.

Just as soon as you balance each and every destination shape in the monster manual.

The "you get fixed bonuses" just turns the shape you turn into into mere fluff.

That completely screws over Sorcerers though
Sorcerers are supposed to trade versatility for power?

It is, however, just about the opposite of what I want to achieve...
I like versatile abilities. Giving only a few forms defeats the purpose, in my eyes.
Are you trying to reduce wizards to tier 2 or 3?

A power as flexible as polymporph should suck if you are trying to push them to tier 3, or be mostly fluff in what it does.

Drolyt
2010-02-09, 03:07 PM
The resulting Polymorph spell will be versatile.

Just as soon as you balance each and every destination shape in the monster manual.

The "you get fixed bonuses" just turns the shape you turn into into mere fluff.

Sorcerers are supposed to trade versatility for power?

Are you trying to reduce wizards to tier 2 or 3?

A power as flexible as polymporph should suck if you are trying to push them to tier 3, or be mostly fluff in what it does.

Well here is the thing. Wizards are going to be the most versatile class in the game period (unless you place arbitrary restrictions on them, which I oppose). The best thing, in my personal opinion, is to make wizards and other classes similar in power, and just live with the fact that the other classes aren't as versatile. As it stands however, wizards are both more versatile and more powerful. Bring the power levels in line, make sure there are things that other classes can do that wizard's cannot (which isn't really true right now), and just live with the fact that the wizards bag of tricks is usually larger than all the other class's.

DracoDei
2010-02-09, 03:07 PM
6.) Adjust "effective HD" (on the fly if necessary) to make the power scale with caster level. Many animals would get LESS HD than they actually have for effective HD. Your system might even turn out to be a good way of doing that when it is finished.

Very difficult, and I might or might not be up to it if the player is a real powergamer, but in the sorts of social settings I tend to GM the players:
1.) Don't know enough to get really cheesy.
2.) Would probably HELP me with the balance if they knew enough to do so.

Drolyt
2010-02-09, 03:12 PM
6.) Adjust "effective HD" (on the fly if necessary) to make the power scale with caster level. Many animals would get LESS HD than they actually have for effective HD. Your system might even turn out to be a good way of doing that when it is finished.

Very difficult, and I might or might not be up to it if the player is a real powergamer, but in the sorts of social settings I tend to GM the players:
1.) Don't know enough to get really cheesy.
2.) Would probably HELP me with the balance if they knew enough to do so.

In a pinch you could use ECL, but WotC saw fit not to give that for most monsters. Barring that general guidelines like animals -x outsiders +x etc. might work, but the fact is that most of polymorph's brokenness is from individual monsters with poorly thought out abilities. The vast majority of monsters aren't broken when used for polymorph. In fact there are numerous monsters that would be perfectly balanced when used for polymorph but have too many HD because WotC didn't see the brilliant logic of HD == CR. That's at least one reason to use specific forms.

Lysander
2010-02-09, 03:35 PM
I think you have it backwards right now. Right now you have it so polymorph lets you choose your abilities from a list and then the actual species you copy is just decorative fluff.

What if you keep the list of types of abilities polymorph can grant, and keep the limitations on number of abilities it can grant from that list at one time, but limit people to copying actual creatures that fall within those guidelines. So you can take any form whose natural talents don't exceed the power the spell can grant at one time. Any creature that's too good just isn't an option, as are entirely imaginary creatures.

Have a lesser polymorph that is limited to animal powers, then maybe a greater one that lets you choose either more powers at one time or to add some minor supernatural abilities to allow some magical beast or outsider forms.

lesser_minion
2010-02-09, 03:46 PM
If you want to disguise yourself as a monster of some kind, that's cool. But why should a wizard be limited to known monsters?

It's more balanced, more versatile, and rewards creativity more if shapeshifters can simply pick mutations freely and use those.

Yakk
2010-02-09, 03:52 PM
Well, that depends. If the monsters chosen are similar to the summon monster spells, then "you disappear and a monster appears in your place" becomes more practical.

But if you allow every monster .. then no, it doesn't work.

You could go off into the sideways land, and require that polymorph spells require as a focus the true name of the creature you polymorph into. This turns polymorph into a "collect treasures that let you use it" type spell. And similarly, a given polymorph spell might be limited in what power level the creatures you can polymorph into are (or duration could fall, etc).

This moves things closer to rule 0 terrain, where the DM has veto over what polymorph "true names" a given spellcaster has gotten ahold of.

Drolyt
2010-02-09, 04:03 PM
Well, that depends. If the monsters chosen are similar to the summon monster spells, then "you disappear and a monster appears in your place" becomes more practical.

But if you allow every monster .. then no, it doesn't work.

You could go off into the sideways land, and require that polymorph spells require as a focus the true name of the creature you polymorph into. This turns polymorph into a "collect treasures that let you use it" type spell. And similarly, a given polymorph spell might be limited in what power level the creatures you can polymorph into are (or duration could fall, etc).

This moves things closer to rule 0 terrain, where the DM has veto over what polymorph "true names" a given spellcaster has gotten ahold of.

I vote against anything that requires rule 0 or the DM to work right. That's just poor design philosophy, period. The rules should work as written.

DracoDei
2010-02-09, 04:04 PM
If you want to disguise yourself as a monster of some kind, that's cool. But why should a wizard be limited to known monsters?

It's more balanced, more versatile, and rewards creativity more if shapeshifters can simply pick mutations freely and use those.

If it weren't for unique abilities, I MIGHT agree with you...

Drolyt
2010-02-09, 04:07 PM
If it weren't for unique abilities, I MIGHT agree with you...

Well, there's a problem with 3.5. In most point buy systems there are a set of abilities that describe everything every creature in that system can do. D&D approaches this with spells and spell-like abilities, as well as the numerous shared abilities described in the Monster Manual like Rake or Regeneration. The fact that monsters actually need unique abilities that can't be duplicated with a spell or feat is what we call a design flaw.

Jair Barik
2010-02-09, 04:11 PM
How about you take a leaf from the Psionics handbook?

Perhaps a series of menus accesible at different levels with varying ability boons/ advantages in the same manner as the Astral construct power? Just a thought but it does seem to be the sort of thing you are going for here.

Yakk
2010-02-09, 04:22 PM
I vote against anything that requires rule 0 or the DM to work right. That's just poor design philosophy, period. The rules should work as written.
It doesn't require rule 0.

Get the true name of something, and you can polymorph into it.

By default, knowledge of the polymorph spell might give you access to the same true names as those that are in the summon monster list. After that, further names are a matter of discovering them in the world. Quite possibly nobody knows the true name of particular kinds of beings in a particular world -- in which case...

lesser_minion
2010-02-09, 04:34 PM
I vote against anything that requires rule 0 or the DM to work right. That's just poor design philosophy, period. The rules should work as written.

No, it isn't.

Not only is it simply not possible to write rules that work perfectly without interpretation, but this is the DM's game, not the designer's. Matters of style, setting, themes, adventures, what to allow, and what not to allow are completely down to her.

Spells that require the use of a resource that the DM has to 'seed' into the setting are perfectly valid, as is the "The DM decides when you level" rule.

Lysander
2010-02-09, 04:37 PM
Whether it's rule 0 or not, it'll make the spell less of a hassle to use if the DM doesn't need to decide what forms to permit or deny ahead of time. And if you use a "true names" system you'll have players going on undesired side-quests to learn how to turn into a giant squid and for every other animal shape they want to get.

lesser_minion
2010-02-09, 04:41 PM
Whether it's rule 0 or not, it'll make the spell less of a hassle to use if the DM doesn't need to decide what forms to permit or deny ahead of time. And if you use a "true names" system you'll have players going on undesired side-quests to learn how to turn into a giant squid and for every other animal shape they want to get.

I think that's why most people are looking at Astral Construct for inspiration.

Drolyt
2010-02-09, 04:44 PM
No, it isn't.

Not only is it simply not possible to write rules that work perfectly without interpretation, but this is the DM's game, not the designer's. Matters of style, setting, themes, adventures, what to allow, and what not to allow are completely down to her.

Spells that require the use of a resource that the DM has to 'seed' into the setting are perfectly valid, as is the "The DM decides when you level" rule.

Matters of style, setting, themes, adventures, what to allow, and what not to allow are perfectly fine in the DMs hands. But the DM should have to adjudicate as few rules as possible. Especially in a game like D&D where many people DM their first game it is important that they don't have to judge whether a certain use of the rules should be allowed or not. Polymorph should be balanced in the vast majority of cases; at the very least not breaking without the use of obscure tricks. Currently polymorph can break just by selecting a single monster that happens to have 3.0 haste built into it for some inexplicable reason.

Put another way: after seeing how many DMs honestly believe Psionics is more broken then core, or that Monks are a high powered choice, I have to believe that a system that relies on the DM to keep game balance is a poorly designed one. A game should be built pretending that rule 0 does not even exist. Relying on it as a crutch is the epitome of a poorly designed rule.

lesser_minion
2010-02-09, 05:10 PM
Put another way: after seeing how many DMs honestly believe Psionics is more broken then core, or that Monks are a high powered choice, I have to believe that a system that relies on the DM to keep game balance is a poorly designed one. A game should be built pretending that rule 0 does not even exist. Relying on it as a crutch is the epitome of a poorly designed rule.

But this isn't true.

Spend too long trying to account for all the bugs, and you end up with an unplayable sludge of dead tree fibres, stored electrical charges, and magnetic traces.

If it will make your game more readable, more elegant, simpler, or more flexible to put a little faith in the troupe, then do it. All that's really important is that the game is flexible without there being any serious holes, and that someone is on hand to address any holes that do arise.

One of the main reasons that the grappling rules are broken is because you suddenly have to instruct a solicitor in order to get anything done.

Drolyt
2010-02-09, 05:13 PM
But this isn't true.

Spend too long trying to account for all the bugs, and you end up with an unplayable sludge of dead tree fibres, stored electrical charges, and magnetic traces.

If it will make your game more readable, more elegant, simpler, or more flexible to put a little faith in the troupe, then do it. All that's really important is that the game is flexible without there being any serious holes, and that someone is on hand to address any holes that do arise.

You are creating a False Dilemma. You can have simple streamlined rules without relying on rule 0. The whole point of this thread is (I presume) to figure out how to do that with polymorph.

lesser_minion
2010-02-09, 05:19 PM
You are creating a False Dilemma. You can have simple streamlined rules without relying on rule 0. The whole point of this thread is (I presume) to figure out how to do that with polymorph.

Read Ars Magica. It has the best magic system ever conceived for a roleplaying game. The reason for that is that it actually lets the troupe figure some things out for themselves, and accepts that bugs will exist.

The D&D rules don't rely on the DM as a crutch any more than any other game does, partly because of mistakes in the original rules, partly because WotC rushed the original design team (3.0 was clearly unfinished at first printing), and partly because 3.5 was written by a team that didn't understand the original rules, and didn't actually care about the end result.

Drolyt
2010-02-09, 05:30 PM
Read Ars Magica. It has the best magic system ever conceived for a roleplaying game. The reason for that is that it actually lets the troupe figure some things out for themselves, and accepts that bugs will exist.

The D&D rules don't rely on the DM as a crutch any more than any other game does. They just have far more known bugs than any other game, partly because of design oversights, partly because of inadequate testing, and partly because the 3.5 update entailed handing the rules over to a team who didn't have the faintest clue how the rules worked, couldn't be bothered to work them out, and didn't fully understand the changes they were making.

They basically wrote a program in Pascal and then hired a drunk C++ fanboy to maintain the code.

Hmm, I think we are discussing different things? I specifically want the rules for polymorph to be clear, concise, and balanced, and I specifically don't want the decision of what monsters the players can transform into to be dependent on the DM, or some mechanic about true names or whatever. I understand that no rule is perfect, and that not all the design flaws of 3e are the faults of the designers, but we are trying to make polymorph as usable as possible. Creating a restriction on what forms you can assume that depends on roleplaying is just a bad idea.

lesser_minion
2010-02-09, 05:35 PM
Hmm, I think we are discussing different things? I specifically want the rules for polymorph to be clear, concise, and balanced, and I specifically don't want the decision of what monsters the players can transform into to be dependent on the DM, or some mechanic about true names or whatever. I understand that no rule is perfect, and that not all the design flaws of 3e are the faults of the designers, but we are trying to make polymorph as usable as possible. Creating a restriction on what forms you can assume that depends on roleplaying is just a bad idea.

I don't think there is a system that uses the DM actively as a "crutch for balance" in the way you describe. There are a lot of systems that let players customise something within a set of clear and concise guidelines and then seek DM approval, and they really are a lot better for it.

D&D is just more known for its bugs, through being quite old, through being famous, and because of a combination of rushed development of 3.0 and a lack of communication between the 3.0 and 3.5 designers.

Having characters seek out, kill, and drink the blood of particular monsters actually works out pretty well for Exalted, however.

There are a few limits - you have to pay background dots to have acquired forms before the game starts, and there are also clear guidelines on when you can do a hunt, how often, and what forms you can learn.

Not being able to do anything during downtime simply kills verisimilitude, after all.

Lysander
2010-02-09, 05:41 PM
I think there might be a bit of a middle ground here between RAW and DM guidance. Have strict guidelines for what kinds of abilities a player can definitely use Polymorph to get. Then add a line like "Forms with different abilities may also be assumed, as long as their overall power is on a similar level as these effects. Forms with more powerful or more exotic abilities may simply be impossible to assume."

That way players and DMs know a number of forms that are definitely allowed, and then if a player wants to turn into an Acid Spewing Octomonkey or anything else unusual, then the DM can decide whether to permit it or not on a case by case basis.

lesser_minion
2010-02-09, 05:51 PM
I think there might be a bit of a middle ground here between RAW and DM guidance. Have strict guidelines for what kinds of abilities a player can definitely use Polymorph to get. Then add a line like "Forms with different abilities may also be assumed, as long as their overall power is on a similar level as these effects. Forms with more powerful or more exotic abilities may simply be impossible to assume."

That way players and DMs know a number of forms that are definitely allowed, and then if a player wants to turn into an Acid Spewing Octomonkey or anything else unusual, then the DM can decide whether to permit it or not on a case by case basis.

I think you're pretty much spot-on here, although I still prefer simple mutations-from-a-menu.

Drolyt
2010-02-09, 06:04 PM
I think the best way forward would be something like:


Polymorph. An all-round spell, letting you alter your character's form freely to gain additional abilities.
Blood of the [type]. A much more specific spell, allowing you to take a killed creature and make a potion that confers its exact appearance, mannerisms, and certain abilities on the drinker.


I vote for something more or less like this. Well, I say something like:
1. [various spells, from 3rd to 8th levels, that let you assume specific shapes or a handful of related shapes]
2. Lesser Polymorph (4th level), Polymorph (6th level), and Greater Polymorph (8th level), which allow free form shapeshifting using a list of pre-determined abilities (such as flight) as well as duplicating lower level spells that allow specific shapes (so if Dragon Shape were a 7th level spell, it could be duplicated with Greater Polymorph).
3. Baleful Polymorph, which turns an opponent into one of the following, which must be appropriate to the environment it is in and ends if they leave said environment or are attacked: Frog, Fish, Sheep, this list needs more options.
4. Polymorph Any Object (8th level), which actually turns the target into the object/creature (for example they would lose all their memories) and is permanent.
5. Shapechange (9th level), which allows you to duplicate the effects of all of the above as well as add abilities to creatures you transform into (for example giving a dog a breath weapon).
6. Did I miss something?

lesser_minion
2010-02-09, 06:39 PM
I vote for something more or less like this. Well, I say something like:
1. [various spells, from 3rd to 8th levels, that let you assume specific shapes or a handful of related shapes]
2. Lesser Polymorph (4th level), Polymorph (6th level), and Greater Polymorph (8th level), which allow free form shapeshifting using a list of pre-determined abilities (such as flight) as well as duplicating lower level spells that allow specific shapes (so if Dragon Shape were a 7th level spell, it could be duplicated with Greater Polymorph).
3. Baleful Polymorph, which turns an opponent into one of the following, which must be appropriate to the environment it is in and ends if they leave said environment or are attacked: Frog, Fish, Sheep, this list needs more options.
4. Polymorph Any Object (8th level), which actually turns the target into the object/creature (for example they would lose all their memories) and is permanent.
5. Shapechange (9th level), which allows you to duplicate the effects of all of the above as well as add abilities to creatures you transform into (for example giving a dog a breath weapon).
6. Did I miss something?

+1. I like this plan.

Lysander
2010-02-10, 12:05 AM
6. Did I miss something?

Your list seems pretty good. I might add a fluid form spell to replace the current Shapechange that allows you to apply the effects of Greater Polymorph to yourself once per round as a standard action. Perhaps a swarm form spell that allows you to break into a cloud of bees, bats, rats, or similar.

This probably falls under your number 1, but maybe add spells that allow you to assume an animal form for a long period of time. For example, if you want to stay in dolphin form for several days in order to swim across a sea. That might be ideal for "travel form" types spells, while more powerful combat forms would have a 1 minute/level duration.

Eldan
2010-02-10, 02:11 AM
That sounds like a good plan. Still, currently, I'm mainly gathering abilities for Polymorph itself: I will let players choose from a list of abilities (thanks for the Astral construct suggestion, by the way, I never thought of that!), and, for an eight level stronger version, also add a line that you can assume forms available with other spells.