Battle Jump + TWF

[cosmicstring]

Hello everyone!

I have a melee build concept in mind that combines TWF, pounce, and the Battle Jump feat from Unapproachable East (page 42). A part of the Battle Jump feat entry states that: "...you can choose to deal double damage with a melee weapon...". Does that mean that you can only apply the double damage effect to one of your weapons when pouncing with TWF? Or does it merely set the category of weapons in which the effects of the feat can apply to (since you're essentially wielding a melee weapon in each hand)? Or is it that I'm just really dumb enough to be unable to interpret its simple meaning?


P.S. I'm new to the forums :smallredface:. Anyway, if your wondering about the whole build concept, I was planning to combine the Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink Shadow Hand maneuvers with the above combination to produce a pseudo-shadowpounce effect by teleporting adjacent to your foe, 5' above him, then freely falling to activate Battle Jump and pounce for a free full attack (hmm... follow-up question: is this even valid?)

[Draz74]

Short version answer: Battle Jump is very poorly written, and generally makes the DM make a lot of decisions as far as how it interacts with other combat rules.

[Splendor]

Well the feat battle jump could be read that it only affects one attack, but you can easily picture in your mind someone jumping down and striking with two weapons. In fact there is even a feat Dual Strike that allows you to attack with two weapons as a standard action (as opposed to a full round action).

I would, as a DM, say that using Battle Jump with TWF would allow you two attacks but the bonus damage from battle jump is applied only to one weapon unless you were landing on multiple targets. I would rule that the bonus damage is kinda like falling into a pit damage, while each spike in the pit that hits you deals damage, each spike does not get bonus damage from you falling on it. The falling damage is handled separately.

Now with Pounce (either from a creature with the pounce ability, a magical item or snow tiger berserker feat) I would allows you as above and then when you land you can make the rest of your attacks normally, but none of those would get any bonus damage.

[Kaiyanwang]

I use it like I use Leap Attack: doubles all the damage, but only the first strike.

[LichPrinceAlim]

I use it like I use Leap Attack: doubles all the damage, but only the first strike.

Seconded.

However, a player can "break" this by the Dual Strike feat mentioned above, twin weapons with a high crit, Battle Jump, and a Lion Totem Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker.

[Prime32]

For sheer DPS, wielding a two-handed weapon is usually superior (TWF doesn't let you get as much mileage out of Power Attack). This changes if you have Sneak Attack or something similar which applies extra damage to every attack.

If it only applies to a single attack, then find some way to make a single powerful strike as a full attack, like Decisive Strike. Battle Jump + Decisive Strike + valorous weapon enhancement = 4x damage. Possibly get a jumping mount and take Spirited Charge to increase that to 5x.

[BishFish]

Ask your DM. They get the final say on the rules to help keep the campaign balanced with their encounters and the other party members happy.

[cosmicstring]

Thanks for the replies everyone. My objective, however, is not to get as much multipliers to damage as possible. I was aiming for an alternate way for shadowpouncing w/o going into the Telflammar Shadowlord or Shadow Marauder prcs by Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blinking above your enemy to activate Battle Jump + Pounce (which can potentially net you 3 full round attacks in one round).

The double damage thing was just icing on cake, though I thought it had some potential for some serious damage.

Edit: I'm actually the DM, and I was just trying to get your opinion on the matter. I was actually building a shadowy dual-wielding hit-and-run kind of NPC for a campaign with moderately optimized PC's. Aaand, judging by how they're optimized, I've decided that the double damage would apply only to the first attacks of each hand and not the iterative attacks (seeing that the character can do a double downward slash as he descends).

[Kaiyanwang]

Seconded.

However, a player can "break" this by the Dual Strike feat mentioned above, twin weapons with a high crit, Battle Jump, and a Lion Totem Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker.

Well, if one takes dual strike, deserves a reward somewhat.. and I was meaning first strike only even in pounce (as Leap Attack errata.. remember: "THIS attack...")

[cosmicstring]

Hmm...

"Dual Strike
(Complete Adventurer, p 108-109)
Prerequisites: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a melee attack with your primary weapon and your off-hand weapon. Both attacks use the same attack roll to determine success, using the worse of the two weapons attack modifiers. If you are using a one-handed or light weapon in your primary hand and a light weapon in your off hand, you take a -4 penalty on this attack roll; otherwise you take a -10 penalty.
Each weapon deals its normal damage. Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each weapon attack.
Special: Precision based damage applies only once. On a successful crit, only your primary hand weapon deals extra damage."


Given the description above for the Dual Strike Feat, I really think it is not a really good feat to invest on since the my build core concept focuses more on gaining a lot of attacks in one round instead of attacking with just two weapons as a standard action. To clarify, it works this way: you teleport using one of the Shadow Hand teleporting maneuvers to a space in mid air, 5' above and adjacent to your opponent, then fall as a free action to trigger Battle Jump in order to make your fall count as a charge. This then triggers Pounce, which allows you to make a full-round attack after falling.

It essentially gives you a free full-round attack after activating your teleport maneuver (unless I'm interpreting the rules in a wrong way). Thus, if you have all three teleport maneuvers (Shadow Jaunt, Stride, and Blink) and TWF feat line, you can potentially produce 3 full-round attacks (with a hell lot of attacks thanks to TWF) by subsequently teleporting above your opponent. Optionally, you can use the last teleport to get out of your opponent'srange.

I wasn't sure how to apply the double damage effect though, hence the OP. However, the double damage effect wasn't really the focus (more of an extra instead) since I can get additional damage from SA and shadow blade.

[Splendor]

Shadow Pounce from the unapproachable east states:

"and the spot to which he teleports must be a place from which he can launch a melee attack at the intended target with whatever weapon he has in hand.."

Strictly reading this means you couldn't teleport above him, because that spot you cannot make a melee attack from.

[Darrin]

Strictly reading this means you couldn't teleport above him, because that spot you cannot make a melee attack from.

I don't follow. From what I understand, I threaten the adjacent squares around me, and this includes squares directly above and below me. (And hey, if I'm above my target I also get a +1 bonus for higher ground, too.)

[Amphetryon]

Seconded.

However, a player can "break" this by the Dual Strike feat mentioned above, twin weapons with a high crit, Battle Jump, and a Lion Totem Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker.

+2. I'd also allow one of the various flavors of two-weapon pounce to "break" this. I can think of one variety in PH2 and another in RoW that is race-specific, beyond those mentioned above. I'm sure there are others.

[cosmicstring]

I think there's some confusion in here (probably due to the misleading title, which I apologize for). The point of the thread is to confirm whether the double damage effect from Battle Jump will apply to all attacks or to only a single attack while dual-wielding if you had some way to gain a full attack after a charge (i.e. pounce or something else). As of first few replies, it seems that it's either that the DM would have the final say, or only the first attack would have double damage.


Anyway, for the sake of clarifying my build concept:
I'm not trying to combine a charger build with TWF, neither am I directly using the shadow pounce ability. What I'm trying to do is to make a pseudo-shadow pounce effect by starting on the same altitude/ground/height as my opponent, then teleporting 5 ft above him (i.e. you teleport to a space in midair, not to an elevated area/ground), then drop adjacent to him (free action fall) to activate Battle Jump, which considers my fall as a charge, to trigger pounce.

Again:
Teleport above opponent -> drop to activate battle jump -> triggers pounce for free full attack.

With the shadow hand maneuvers, I can teleport up to 3 times for three free full attacks in one round.

[Person_Man]

Ask your DM. In my campaigns, Leap Attack and Battle Jump apply to every attack on a Charge. Why shouldn't melee types have nice things?

[flabort]

He IS the DM. that's why he's asking the playground.

Edit: Actually, three full attacks per round is pretty nasty. There's a reason WotC only allowed one, barring tricks like that. I don't think aplying the damage multiplyer to all attacks rather than one will make too much of a difference, [/sarcasm], except that (33d6)x2 > 32d6+(1d6x2).... a range of 66 to 396 vs. 34 to 198, as a general example, rather than your specific. That's just asuming he deals 11d6 per full attack, is doing three full attacks, and aplies the multiplier to all attacks. Which he probably DOES NOT deal 11d6 damage per full attack.

[lsfreak]

Well, really, it's not the kind of this you are going to do every combat (or at least, you shouldn't). It's pretty easy to drop the equivalent of 160d6 damage a round by level 11 (ubercharger frenzied berserker), but you'd be stupid to do so.

I'd allow it, but point out to the player that they shouldn't overpower the rest of the characters. If it's a highly optimized game, sure; if it's not, I expect them to hold back except when things start looking rough. And also point out that one-shotting major enemies just means that I'll probably compensate.

[cosmicstring]

I'm actually applying it to a villain NPC mini-boss. So, it'll be him + some mooks versus a party of 6 moderately optimized characters. I've decided to apply the multiplied damage to the first attack of each hand (total of 2) for each full attack, instead of all the attacks, for balance.

Edit: And, in his current level, he only has shadow jaunt and shadow stride. So that's just two teleports (full round attacks) every other round (since he has to recover them with adaptive style to do the trick again).