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RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-15, 04:10 PM
I've heard alot of talk about CR's not being appropriate. Just out of curiosity does any one have any examples of monsters who's crs are not right?

Edit:
Just talking about the SRD.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 04:12 PM
I've heard alot of talk about CR's not being appropriate. Just out of curiosity does any one have any examples of monsters who's crs are not right?

Adamantine Horror was brought up in the last thread. At will Disintegrate, Disjunction and Implosion at CR 9.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-15, 04:13 PM
Err SRD only please.

BRC
2010-02-15, 04:15 PM
Hydras.
A 5 headed hydra, CR4, get's Five attacks as a standard action. Pyro/Cryohydras deal 15d6 with a save every 1d4 rounds at CR 6.

FishAreWet
2010-02-15, 04:15 PM
Dragons are usually under CRed because they're Big Bads.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 04:16 PM
Err SRD only please.

...Ok.

Why don't you check the last thread, which I started, called "Horribly under-CR encounters"?

Starbuck_II
2010-02-15, 04:17 PM
That damn Crab: CR 2, grapple +19. Yeah, I want to see a level 2 +19.
Edit: Darn, not SRD.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-15, 04:18 PM
...Ok.

Why don't you check the last thread, which I started, called "Horribly under-CR encounters"?

I'm looking for under and over cr'ed encounters. Though i will look at your thread thank you.


FishAreWet: what do you meen there under cr'ed?

sonofzeal
2010-02-15, 04:20 PM
Compare a Polar Bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearPolar.htm) to a Sea Cat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/seaCat.htm).

Does that help?

lsfreak
2010-02-15, 04:21 PM
For the most part, single monsters are under-CR'd. One monster just can't compete with 4+ guys wailing away at it. Some monsters, and sometimes the right situations, can balance things out or over-CR the monster, but in general 1-versus-4 doesn't work well.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-15, 04:24 PM
Compare a Polar Bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearPolar.htm) to a Sea Cat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/seaCat.htm).

Does that help?

I don't know there pritty close...
slight differences ... the polarbear is better don't get me wrong but is the sea cat weak enough to get droped a cr?

sonofzeal
2010-02-15, 04:32 PM
I don't know there pritty close...
slight differences ... the polarbear is better don't get me wrong but is the sea cat weak enough to get droped a cr?
The difference between the two is pretty huge. Both have claw/claw/bite, but the Polar Bear has more hp, way more accurate attacks, and does way more damage. They're the same size, same combat style, both semi-aquatic, same CR, but the Polar Bear will rip the Sea Cat to absolute shreds in almost any context, and be a far more dangerous adversary against almost any team. And it still dies horribly against anything with DR, or Levitate, or Int damage.

The point of those two is to illustrate that CR covers a fairly substantial range. I'm not sure whether the Sea Cat should be CR 3, or if the Polar Bear could be CR 5, but the fact that it's a difficult question to answer is telling.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-15, 04:41 PM
The difference between the two is pretty huge. Both have claw/claw/bite, but the Polar Bear has more hp, way more accurate attacks, and does way more damage. They're the same size, same combat style, both semi-aquatic, same CR, but the Polar Bear will rip the Sea Cat to absolute shreds in almost any context, and be a far more dangerous adversary against almost any team. And it still dies horribly against anything with DR, or Levitate, or Int damage.

The point of those two is to illustrate that CR covers a fairly substantial range. I'm not sure whether the Sea Cat should be CR 3, or if the Polar Bear could be CR 5, but the fact that it's a difficult question to answer is telling.


actualy the damage isn't far off(the bear doing 34 and the cat doing 32) However the hp difference is only 17 and the bears easyer to hit.
both have decent attack bonus's, honestly in a strait up fight it could go eaither way dealing just average damage the bear will win but he will by 2 hp.




though seeing how the enviromental differences between the two its harder to compair... both have swim speads but

ericgrau
2010-02-15, 04:46 PM
Hydras.
A 5 headed hydra, CR4, get's Five attacks as a standard action. Pyro/Cryohydras deal 15d6 with a save every 1d4 rounds at CR 6.

Five attacks at +6 AB. Only one of them actually hits the fighter. Nevertheless the fast healing and regenerating heads are brutal if the party isn't prepared. If a level 4 fighter follows the discouraged method of hitting the regenerating body, he indeed fails to hurt it. If a fighter follows the recommended method of severing heads he averages 0.75 removed per round and they grow back at the rate of 0.8 per round. If a fighter or a party of 4 makes their DC 15/20/25 knowledge(nature) check to learn one or more hydra abilities, and they bring both sundering and fire, then its moderate damage output becomes gradually diminished, its regeneration negated and it becomes a little over half as difficult as any other CR 4 encounter. So really it seems that hydras suffer from vampire syndrome. Very difficult if unprepared, easy otherwise.

sonofzeal
2010-02-15, 04:56 PM
actualy the damage isn't far off(the bear doing 34 and the cat doing 32) However the hp difference is only 17 and the bears easyer to hit.
both have decent attack bonus's, honestly in a strait up fight it could go eaither way dealing just average damage the bear will win but he will by 2 hp.
I'm not sure where you're getting those numbers. If you're including Rake - don't, because with a +9 attack bonus (compared to the Polar Bear's +13) it's not going to be hitting with both claws very often.

If they're fighting eachother.... *crunches numbers* ....adjusted for AC...

Sea Cat: 21.8125
Polar Bear: 26.05

Ignoring initiative, Polar Bear wins with almost 40% of its health left. Pretty substantial margin, that actually expands substantially against higher AC enemies where the chance of getting the Rake deteriorates substantially.

Oh, and also ignoring Grapple, which is a situationally good tactic for the Polar Bear but much less so for the Sea Cat.

ericgrau
2010-02-15, 04:58 PM
Compare a Polar Bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearPolar.htm) to a Sea Cat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/seaCat.htm).

Does that help?

The polar bear would be head and shoulders above the sea cat... except presumably you fight a polar bear on land and the sea cat underwater. When fighting underwater you get a -2 to hit and deal half damage with weapons. The sea cat is not affected by this. Most low level control spells don't work, fire spells are often (but not always) negated, and other core damage spells are weak.

BRC
2010-02-15, 05:02 PM
Five attacks at +6 AB. Only one of them actually hits the fighter. Nevertheless the fast healing and regenerating heads are brutal if the party isn't prepared. If a level 4 fighter follows the discouraged method of hitting the regenerating body, he indeed fails to hurt it. If a fighter follows the recommended method of severing heads he averages 0.75 removed per round and they grow back at the rate of 0.8 per round. If a fighter or a party of 4 makes their DC 15/20/25 knowledge(nature) check to learn one or more hydra abilities, and they bring both sundering and fire, then its moderate damage output becomes gradually diminished, its regeneration negated and it becomes a little over half as difficult as any other CR 4 encounter. So really it seems that hydras suffer from vampire syndrome. Very difficult if unprepared, easy otherwise.
Mind you, that can cover alot of things, especially if a Wizard is involved.
Skeleton can be tough if you don't regularly use bludgeoning weapons, however if you break out the hammers and holy water, they go down easily. Most things with Damage Reduction besides /magic.

And what you were talking about was less about prep and more about good tactics, which, once again, applies to alot of things.


Anyway, I find alot of monsters can be made ridiculously nasty in the right circumstances, but fail otherwise. Give anything with ranged attacks cover and distance, and it's significantly tougher. Stick a melee brute in a small room and it's a big threat, put it somewhere open and it gets pinged by ranged attacks. Goblin Rogues attacking the party, an easy fight. Goblin Rogues ambushing a party in a dark corridor with one delaying his action to interrupt the wizard's spell casting, alot tougher.

Edit: And that's not even taking Party Makeup into account. Large numbers go down easy to wizards and sorcs, but against a party without blasters they can be deadly. Two rogues can form a nasty flanking pair, but the moment they go up against one of the many things that can't be sneak attacked, half the party's damage is gone. Flyers against parties that gain alot of their damage from melee.

sonofzeal
2010-02-15, 05:31 PM
The polar bear would be head and shoulders above the sea cat... except presumably you fight a polar bear on land and the sea cat underwater. When fighting underwater you get a -2 to hit and deal half damage. Most low level control spells don't work, fire spells are often (but not always) negated, and other core damage spells are weak.
Except the Polar Bear has a decent Swim speed too, and actually has a higher Swim skill check than the Sea Cat does. It does lack Hold Breath, but its Con is higher which partially balances out even that.



You can also compare a Elder Xorn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/xorn.htm) to a T Rex (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#tyrannosaurus), or a Planatar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar) (note the 17th level cleric spellcasting) to a Cornugon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#hornedDevilCornugon) (still nasty, but gimme a break).

Tyndmyr
2010-02-15, 05:36 PM
Or you can compare an Orc to...anything that's CR 1/2. Hell, it beats plenty of CR 1 mobs.

At CR 1, spider swarms will utterly kill almost any other CR 1 mob head to head, and a party without blasty magic is pretty much screwed against one at level 1. Even with a caster, it could get ugly. Especially if it's say, at night, and thus, the caster can't see them till they attack.

On the other hand, a Giant bee is CR 1, and will actually kill itself trying to take out a single player of any type, even at level 1. It's also not aggressive, so this will only happen if the player actually attacks it and fails to kill it. So, these things are pretty much slow moving piles of xp.

CR is only a guideline at best.

ericgrau
2010-02-15, 05:39 PM
Except the Polar Bear has a decent Swim speed too, and actually has a higher Swim skill check than the Sea Cat does. It does lack Hold Breath, but its Con is higher which partially balances out even that.



You can also compare a Elder Xorn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/xorn.htm) to a T Rex (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#tyrannosaurus), or a Planatar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar) (note the 17th level cleric spellcasting) to a Cornugon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#hornedDevilCornugon) (still nasty, but gimme a break).

The basic assumption for CRs is PC vs monster, not monster vs monster, and the default for a fights is on land not underwater unless necessary. If you fight a polar bear in the water the CR should be higher as it is with fighting an archer in a tower.

EDIT: As for Xorn vs Trex, I am honestly confused as to which is supposed to be tougher. They do similar damage, except the Xorn does more on a full attack, but the Xorn is slower and doesn't have improved grab. The Trex has more HP but the Xorn has more AC. There are too many advantages and disadvantages for me to tell which one is better without doing a lot more number crunching.

EDIT #2: The devil is a slightly better fighter and having roughly half of its multiple attacks per round stun with a reach weapon is pretty brutal. I mean, ya, an actual level 17 cleric would be stronger but this angel is no clericzilla so you're left with moderate fighting or cleric casting each round. I dunno, maybe with the right spells but otherwise it's only core divine casting. Both have a lot of special abilities so it's hard to tell.

Eldariel
2010-02-15, 05:49 PM
From the other thread, both Allip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm) and Shadow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm) are extremely dangerous for their CR; Allip especially (self-healing, quite high HP, Will Save-or-Sit, great Initiative, oh and all that Incorporeality-stuff) should easily be CR 4 and even then, ability drain on such a low CR means even if it's defeated, it can cripple the party before they somehow gain access to Restoration.

Let me put this in perspective: Allip can kill Tarrasque. Without breaking a sweat. Tarrasque can't touch Allip due to not having magical weapons and Allip can't really miss T's Touch AC very easily. Ability Drain is something Big T is not immune to and it doesn't have the highest Wis ever; down it goes.

And you can check the Monkening for how a few shadows gank level 13 characters without needing to even fight...though there's more going on there, of course.


As mentioned, Dragons tend to be "under CRd" to make them more of a challenge; generally, a Dragon of a given CR is much more formidable than anything else near the same numbers. I constructed a level 1 core party of two Orc Barbarians and two Gray Elf Wizards, maximizing their capabilities to take out CR 5+ encounters and practically everything at CR5 was eminently defeatable...except the Dragons.

The Dragons were TPKs no matter how I looked at it; basically you'd need to burn most of your wealth on Tanglefoot Bags, hit, hope and that only allows you to START engaging them. The combination of flight, breath weapon, frightful presence, awesome melee capabilities and later, most crucially, spellcasting to bring this all to bear just makes them formidable. Oh, that and all-high saves + tons of HP + huge hoards (meaning they have magic item access too). So yeah, Dragons are either some of the very few properly CRd creatures or way too tough, depending on how skilled players you're dealing with (and how tactically sound you play the Dragons).

Tehnar
2010-02-15, 06:08 PM
I find that demons and devils are very good for their CR. My favorites are babaus (at will darkness, dispel, see invisibility, good defense vs nearly anything), erineyes (flying, net attack that immobilizes, unholy blight at will). Other outsiders are pretty great too, these are just my favorites.

Runestar
2010-02-15, 06:43 PM
While dragons are arguably very strong for their cr, there appears to be some inconsistencies amongst them.

For example, the black wyrmling dragon is cr3, yet statistically weaker than a very young white dragon (4HD, tiny to 6HD, small).

Monsters with grapple and swallow whole, such as the remorhaz, can potentially result in a TPK simply by running them as statted (spring out from ice, bite--> grapple-->swallow whole, run away, rinse and repeat). To be fair, they are fairly fragile, so with concerted focus fire, you just *might* be able to kill it at the loss of just 1 PC.

Harperfan7
2010-02-15, 07:27 PM
I tend to look for reasons why something has the CR it has. Give the designers some credit.

CR 2 crab with +19 grapple? What are its init, hide/move silently, listen/spot, and speed? If its slow, they pcs can just stay away and peg away. Also, its a vermin so it literally cannot think.

Orcs being CR 1/2. Big bad attack, low will save, low AC.

Hydras = big, slow, and stupid.

A 5th level fighter often can't beat a CR 5 tough one on one, but he can think and use things they probably can't.

It's all about weaknesses.

However, some things really are stupidly under/over CRed. Just think about it before deciding.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-15, 09:07 PM
From the other thread, both Allip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm) and Shadow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm) are extremely dangerous for their CR; Allip especially (self-healing, quite high HP, Will Save-or-Sit, great Initiative, oh and all that Incorporeality-stuff) should easily be CR 4 and even then, ability drain on such a low CR means even if it's defeated, it can cripple the party before they somehow gain access to Restoration.

Let me put this in perspective: Allip can kill Tarrasque. Without breaking a sweat. Tarrasque can't touch Allip due to not having magical weapons and Allip can't really miss T's Touch AC very easily. Ability Drain is something Big T is not immune to and it doesn't have the highest Wis ever; down it goes.

And you can check the Monkening for how a few shadows gank level 13 characters without needing to even fight...though there's more going on there, of course.


As mentioned, Dragons tend to be "under CRd" to make them more of a challenge; generally, a Dragon of a given CR is much more formidable than anything else near the same numbers. I constructed a level 1 core party of two Orc Barbarians and two Gray Elf Wizards, maximizing their capabilities to take out CR 5+ encounters and practically everything at CR5 was eminently defeatable...except the Dragons.

The Dragons were TPKs no matter how I looked at it; basically you'd need to burn most of your wealth on Tanglefoot Bags, hit, hope and that only allows you to START engaging them. The combination of flight, breath weapon, frightful presence, awesome melee capabilities and later, most crucially, spellcasting to bring this all to bear just makes them formidable. Oh, that and all-high saves + tons of HP + huge hoards (meaning they have magic item access too). So yeah, Dragons are either some of the very few properly CRd creatures or way too tough, depending on how skilled players you're dealing with (and how tactically sound you play the Dragons).


I wish the GM's that i played with did that... most dragons are push overs... i know its the gm not the monster... cuz they seem to do stupid ****....

sofawall
2010-02-15, 09:33 PM
I'm not sure where you're getting those numbers. If you're including Rake - don't, because with a +9 attack bonus (compared to the Polar Bear's +13) it's not going to be hitting with both claws very often.

Rend, not Rake. They are very different.

Tehnar
2010-02-15, 09:38 PM
Generally what you want to do with monsters, is to have more of them, then a single strong monsters. Not only do you negate the PCs action advantage, but the monsters themselves can have various synergies making the encounter more difficult then the sum of its parts.

I've had a lot of fun running tow shadow dragons against the PCs. In the end I think they did much better, and provided more challenge (and fun), then a single albeit stronger one would.

sonofzeal
2010-02-15, 10:56 PM
The basic assumption for CRs is PC vs monster, not monster vs monster, and the default for a fights is on land not underwater unless necessary. If you fight a polar bear in the water the CR should be higher as it is with fighting an archer in a tower.
Quite. However, the point I was trying to make was that you can't consider Sea Cat being aquatic as a balance factor, since the Polar Bear does just fine there too. The point was that in almost every relevant way, the Polar Bear is far more dangerous than the Sea Cat, and measurably so, but share the same CR.



EDIT: As for Xorn vs Trex, I am honestly confused as to which is supposed to be tougher. They do similar damage, except the Xorn does more on a full attack, but the Xorn is slower and doesn't have improved grab. The Trex has more HP but the Xorn has more AC. There are too many advantages and disadvantages for me to tell which one is better without doing a lot more number crunching.
The Xorn has more AC, has DR, resistances, immunites, tremorsense, earthglide, Great Cleave, Power Attack, and Improved Bull Rush. The T-Rex has... Low-Light Vision, and Track.

The Xorn has way more AC, a bigger attack bonus, does more damage on a single attack, and does way more damage on a full attack. The T-Rex has... Improved Grab.

I honestly can't imagine how this is in any way a fair contest.


EDIT #2: The devil is a slightly better fighter and having roughly half of its multiple attacks per round stun with a reach weapon is pretty brutal. I mean, ya, an actual level 17 cleric would be stronger but this angel is no clericzilla so you're left with moderate fighting or cleric casting each round. I dunno, maybe with the right spells but otherwise it's only core divine casting. Both have a lot of special abilities so it's hard to tell.
Er.... how is a lvl 17 cleric stronger than an angel with lvl 17 cleric spellcasting and a massive tone of other freebies and a +12 racial bonus to Wisdom? The Planetar is as clericzilla as anyone could hope for. If a level 17 cleric can beat the devil, the Planetar can absolutely mop the floor with him. Remember that the stat block gives the numbers before NPC-wealth-appropriate magic items and any pre-buffs (and many monsters include pre-buffs in their tactics section).

Runestar
2010-02-15, 11:18 PM
From experience, I find that outsiders are weaker than their cr tends to let on because DMs tend to forget to apply some of their special abilities.

Can't really blame them, they really have too many abilities to keep track of. Between dr, sr, resistances, immunities, a laundry list of SLAs of assorted durations and misc abilities (such as regen/fast healing), something is bound to slip through the cracks.


The Xorn has way more AC, a bigger attack bonus, does more damage on a single attack, and does way more damage on a full attack. The T-Rex has... Improved Grab.

A typical fight begins with the T-rex charging into battle and biting the closest PC, which initiates a grapple and paves the way for swallow whole next round, thus removing him from combat (and good luck to the fighter who did not pack a light weapon). Let's see a xorn do this with a full attack.

Over the next 2-3 rounds, the other PCs focus-fire on the T-rex. The T-rex has the option of either fleeing, or attacking another PC. It is a race to kill him before the PC(s) inside gets digested. The T-rex has a lot of hp, so it can afford to play the waiting game.

All this time, the T-rex is dealing an automatic 25 damage to the PC inside and 24 damage average to anyone else it bites (49 total on average). Meanwhile, the party is effectively 1 man down, so it evens out the action economy imbalance somewhat.

The xorn deals more damage on average (54) but is dependent on the full-attack action (so its damage drops significantly against mobile PCs), and everyone in the party gets to attack (meaning it goes down faster).

Be very careful of monsters with swallow whole. Their stats are built around abusing this ability. It is like a SoD without the save. :smallwink:

sonofzeal
2010-02-15, 11:53 PM
A typical fight begins with the T-rex charging into battle and biting the closest PC, which initiates a grapple and paves the way for swallow whole next round, thus removing him from combat (and good luck to the fighter who did not pack a light weapon). Let's see a xorn do this with a full attack.

Over the next 2-3 rounds, the other PCs focus-fire on the T-rex. The T-rex has the option of either fleeing, or attacking another PC. It is a race to kill him before the PC(s) inside gets digested. The T-rex has a lot of hp, so it can afford to play the waiting game.

All this time, the T-rex is dealing an automatic 25 damage to the PC inside and 24 damage average to anyone else it bites (49 total on average). Meanwhile, the party is effectively 1 man down, so it evens out the action economy imbalance somewhat.

The xorn deals more damage on average (54) but is dependent on the full-attack action (so its damage drops significantly against mobile PCs), and everyone in the party gets to attack (meaning it goes down faster).

Be very careful of monsters with swallow whole. Their stats are built around abusing this ability. It is like a SoD without the save. :smallwink:
I've always hated Swallow Whole - not because it's nasty, but because it isn't. Being eaten, by RAW, is mostly just a momentary inconvenience. Cutting your way out is horribly easy for most characters, as pretty much everyone is proficient in daggers and has little to no reason not to carry one. A Sor/Wiz might have trouble cutting their way out, but they have magic for that. For many creatures, being inside them is sometimes safer than being outside them, and it takes fewer actions for you to get yourself out than it the monster to put you in - and you've got teammates who are all taking their actions in the meantime.

As for the Xorn, it's got Earthglide, Tremorsense, and Reach. It can attack from underground (only counterable on Ready Actions), and can maneuver itself under the party to full-attack on the surprise round. It's a little slow, but if the party has a Dwarf or Halfling then it can almost certainly keep up and maintain a nigh-unbeatable hit-and-run game as long as it wants to, unless the entire party has Flight - but in that case the T Rex is dead, and the Xorn is merely bypassed.

Even if it just sits there and fights like a brute, it's going to be fairly hard to kill at that level. Earth Glide and Tremorsense mean it should never join the fight in anything less than the surprise round (unlike the T-Rex, which has the disadvantage of pretty much auto-failing any stealth checks ever), and it deal a nice amount of hurt per round in return.

SoL work on it as always, but for a CR 8 Bruiser you could do a whole lot worse than an Elder Xorn, and a whole lot better than a T-Rex.

Ashiel
2010-02-16, 12:13 AM
I personally find most of the CRs in the SRD/MM1 to be fair enough. I don't own the MM-II but I hear that it's very guilty of over/under CRings.

I agree that many times people really need to sit back and take things into consideration. I believe the designers designed most of the monsters with the intention that they were going to fight on their terms; not in some vacuum where everyone takes turns hitting each other.

For Example: In the aforementioned sea-cat versus polar bear, the sea cat is physically weaker than the polar bear. The polar bear is an all-around good opponent. It's dangerous on both land and in water. It's improved grab ability makes it very dangerous against a single opponent, and hits accurately and hard. However, it is more vulnerable (lower AC, which at those levels is a pretty significant thing) so it takes more damage faster. It's also worth noting that it's signature ability (improved grab) begins a grapple which also makes it vulnerable against multiple enemies (you loose your dex, you can't move, you can't make opportunity attacks).

The sea-cat is slow on land, but is intended for aquatic encounters. In this case, it's swim speed of 40 is amazingly dangerous. It could kill a low-level character and then simply swim off with their carcass. The sea-cat can run a party down (so to speak) and then begin picking at the easiest target. If it lands both claw attacks (hitting a 19 AC on average), it gets a ton of extra damage. That's an average of 7 damage for both claws, and 13 for the rend, which could put down a low level character. It's less vulnerable to retaliation or focus firing from the group because it's AC is 18 (which a 4th level warrior type with a +4 from strength) can hit on a 10. Other less specialized characters with have a worse hit %. Also, they cannot power attack or dual-wield the creature down as easily.

Also, it's worth noting that the sea cat is a magical beast, which makes it immune to a number of things that could end the polar bear encounter immediately (such as charm person or animal, animal empathy, hide from animals, and so forth). Finally, the sea-cat has darkvision 60ft, which can also come into play - especially if you're underwater.

Food for thought. :smallsmile:

sonofzeal
2010-02-16, 12:34 AM
I personally find most of the CRs in the SRD/MM1 to be fair enough. I don't own the MM-II but I hear that it's very guilty of over/under CRings.

I agree that many times people really need to sit back and take things into consideration. I believe the designers designed most of the monsters with the intention that they were going to fight on their terms; not in some vacuum where everyone takes turns hitting each other.

{some good points}

Food for thought. :smallsmile:

Also food for thought - there is a point at which something is no longer a CR3 and is now a CR4, and there is a point at which a CR4 becomes a CR5. Something can be on the high end or the low end of the CR4 range. As far as brutes go, Polar Bear is at the high end of the range (I've done the math; it rips apart anything short of dragons, and even some of them), while Sea Cats are at the low end (in Core Coliseum, Sea Cats were famous as a gimme fight and one of the most thoroughly over-CRed opponents one could roll).

People seem to not want to accept that Polar Bear is objectively more dangerous in just about every way, as if the system was balanced. It's not. Isn't that what this whole thread is about?





As to the specific arguments put forth

A speed of 40 is not a huge deal. It's not enough to close fast enough to chase fleeing PCs, and really the PCs have little reason to be fleeing a Sea Cat anyway because it's not very accurate and doesn't do much damage. I'd be more scared about a CR 3 Ogre, though the Ogre would be (a little) easier to kill.

Polar Bear doesn't have much AC, granted, but it's got 33% more HP and that's its own kind of armor, and a more significant one in some ways.

And there's still that +12 Hide bonus that can be pretty dangerous, too. A Polar Bear with a Surprise Round in close range can fairly well mess up many groups.

ericgrau
2010-02-16, 02:01 AM
PCs still get a -2 to hit and do half damage against sea cats when fighting in the only place they can fight them: In the water. This alone causes the CR bump, and does not apply to the typical polar bear encounter. The previous post seems to fall under exactly the fallacy explained in the post before it: The creature fights where it lives according to its style, not plopped into an empty room where you take turns making rolls. You might as well complain about fighting a beached seal.


Xorn vs T-Rex, angel vs. cleric

In contrast to the extra damage the T-Rex has WAY more HP than the Xorn and improved grab is brutal. Don't even try to act like it's trivial compared to things like cleave. Even without counting swallow whole. Though, btw, how fast do you expect a PC to do 25 damage with a dagger? The angel's stats are lower than a cleric. All the specials merely mean that he can't be easily save-or-died, which hopefully a 17th level PC would also prep wards or counters against. After all the PC's WBL is way higher than NPC WBL which isn't even what the angel gets, it gets monster treasure: "no coins and double goods".

The many factors involved in these last four do make the answer a lot more uncertain, but it most certainly isn't a one sided consideration. There are very large advantages on both sides of each pair.

awa
2010-02-16, 02:22 AM
how are the angles stats lower then a clerics they were really quite high

sonofzeal
2010-02-16, 02:26 AM
PCs still get a -2 to hit and do half damage against sea cats when fighting in the only place they can fight them: In the water. This alone causes the CR bump, and does not apply to the typical polar bear encounter. The previous post seems to fall under exactly the fallacy explained in the post before it: The creature fights where it lives according to its style, not plopped into an empty room where you take turns making rolls. You might as well complain about fighting a beached seal.
Gah. One, "typical" is very hard to define. Two, you're wrong. Polar Bears are way more dangerous than Sea Cats on the surface. They're also way more dangerous than Sea Cats underwater, too. Being underwater makes both more dangerous against PCs, and both benefit in exactly the same ways. That is in no way, shape or form an advantage for the Sea Cat. Maybe you could argue that it poses are reasonable challenge to an appropriate ECL party when underwater. Maybe. It's still far less of a threat than the Polar Bear, in either environment. Either one is massively over-CR'd, or one is massively under-CR'd, or a bit of both.

ericgrau
2010-02-16, 02:27 AM
how are the angles stats lower then a clerics they were really quite high
AC, HP, AB, damage, wisdom and thus spell save DCs are all a good deal lower than a 17th level cleric.

Gah. One, "typical" is very hard to define.
Seacats fight PCs in the water. I shouldn't even have to explain this. Now go tell a dozen people the party is fighting polar bears and see if "oh it must be in the deadly cold of the arctic waters" is the first thing that pops into their heads.

Ashiel
2010-02-16, 03:36 AM
I think it's worth mentioning that the hide modifier is definitely a boon in the polar bear's favor, while being in its natural habitat (IE - snowy terrain). It still must follow the normal rules for hiding though, and assuming it doesn't have cover or concealment, then it can't hide - so I would estimate it easily getting the first attack if characters were within charging distance of actual cover/concealment. Perhaps in the moonlight, where the bear could take advantage of its low-light vision after tracking the party with its scent ability.

That being said; it's worth noting that a successful swim check only allows a land-bound character to move one quarter its speed under water. Failed swim checks render a target flat footed (time to rend). Slashing and Bludgeoning weapons suffer a -2 penalty and deal half damage; ranged weapons suffer a -2 penalty per 5ft shot, and so only piercing melee weapons and grappling is a good option. But then again, grappling the sea lion is just asking for it to bite, claw, claw, rend - while grappling the polar bear is also asking for it to bite, claw, claw, grapple moar.

A 4th level fighter (with a +3 constitution) should have about 38hp. A 4th level wizard (with a +3 constitution) should have about 23hp. The sea-cat is perfectly capable of swimming into combat and maiming either or anyone in between (ideally spotting the party with dark-vision or low-light vision, then charging or running towards the party, then hoping to beat the party's initiatives to full attack). It's also worth noting that, especially at that level, more armor is a bad thing in the water.

Speaking of more armor, the sea-cat, as noted before possesses an AC 18 armor class. That's pretty hefty as not only does it mean that only the +hit focused members of the group can comfortably hit them (so no piling on lots of sneak attack, rapid fire, and so forth), it also means those characters can't afford to sack accuracy for damage (since they could pull +6 damage on the polar bear per hit with the same hit % using power attack). Top this on the fact the party is limited in how they can fight the cat (melee weapons only, unless you want to take MORE penalties to try and shoot it underwater), and the cat is looking good.

Now, the party on land is safe (but then again so is the cat), so they've effectively fled from the cat. The bear is humorously more dangerous under water, since being on land makes it easier to focus fire the bear to death by overcoming its low armor class repeatedly. It's still easier to focus fire on in the water than the cat though, so you've got more of a fighting chance underwater versus the bear than the cat.

I'm just saying; given the context of the monster, I think it's a fine CR 4 encounter in its own right. Am I arguing that the polar bear sucks? Heck no. It's quite awesome. Maybe the polar bear is more dangerous in more situations than the sea-cat (since it has land and water capabilities, and is plenty of brute force); but I don't see the gap as being quite as large as some others see it. That's food for thought in its own right. :smallsmile:

Tehnar
2010-02-16, 03:56 AM
Swallow whole is pretty nasty if the critter has DR (even of the DR/magic sort). How many adventurers carry magic daggers.

On the other hand, there are plenty of teleportation effects available through items that again lower the value of that ability.

sonofzeal
2010-02-16, 03:59 AM
Now go tell a dozen people the party is fighting polar bears and see if "oh it must be in the deadly cold of the arctic waters" is the first thing that pops into their heads.
For something with a Swim speed and a massive bonus to swim checks? Really? Should I have to explain this?

Look, Polar Bear's more dangerous than Sea Cat on land. Polar Bear's more dangerous than Sea Cat in the water. You can't say "oh the Sea Cat's good in the water so that raises its CR but not for the Polar Bear". In either environment, it's outmatched.


A 4th level fighter (with a +3 constitution) should have about 38hp. A 4th level wizard (with a +3 constitution) should have about 23hp. The sea-cat is perfectly capable of swimming into combat and maiming either or anyone in between (ideally spotting the party with dark-vision or low-light vision, then charging or running towards the party, then hoping to beat the party's initiatives to full attack). It's also worth noting that, especially at that level, more armor is a bad thing in the water.
On a turn the Sea Cat moves, its maximum non-crit damage is 1d6+4, and it has no reach. It's not going to be taking people out unless they want to sit there and invite a full-attack. The Polar Bear has this problem too to some extent, mitigated much by the fast that 1d8+8 is painful enough that it can kill people without needing those full attacks, if they don't shut it down or run away quickly.

Also, as previously noted, the AC gap is widely mitigated by the Polar Bear having 33% more hp than the Sea Cat. Against a normal party, I'd expect that to have a significant contribution towards lifespan. Now, +3 AC vs 33% hp is an interesting question, but I'd say that's at very least a fair trade for many monsters.

SpikeFightwicky
2010-02-16, 10:00 AM
From experience, I find that outsiders are weaker than their cr tends to let on because DMs tend to forget to apply some of their special abilities.

This, many times over. Most DMs I play with either forget or don't notice 'Unholy Aura' at will. That spell is brutal, and there's no reason why it wouldn't be up all the time. A constant +4 Deflection to AC and +4 Resistance to saves makes fights that much harder. Many would-be DMs in my group quit because they don't play the monsters correctly, and can't deal with the party, and are too stubborn to accept tips or pointers from other players to improve themselves.

Tehnar
2010-02-16, 10:17 AM
Guess its a DM thing. I for one love outsiders, they make for very tough and interesting fights. If they have at will spells, I just figure they have them up all them time, and make little notes near their statblock to reflect that. I use post-its.

With monsters that have a myriad of different abilities and synergies amongst each other it is near impossible to determine the exact CR of any monster. You just have to eyeball it. If you make a encounter too easy, well you will learn; if you make it too tough, then the PCs will learn :smallcool:.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-16, 10:37 AM
I guess i am assuming a strait up fight. as a

CR equal to the groups ECL. is supposed to use 1/4th of there resources... Assuming this is something that should be true, This i belive would be the standard in which to judge if a CR is to high or low.

so i guess is that a valid statement?
Should we judge cr based on that?
I would think that the 1/4 th statement would be regarding an average party (not optimised not unoptimised).


Any ways Thanks all for commenting i like hereing peoples thoughts on the issue.Keepem commin.

Ashiel
2010-02-16, 01:43 PM
For something with a Swim speed and a massive bonus to swim checks? Really? Should I have to explain this?

Look, Polar Bear's more dangerous than Sea Cat on land. Polar Bear's more dangerous than Sea Cat in the water. You can't say "oh the Sea Cat's good in the water so that raises its CR but not for the Polar Bear". In either environment, it's outmatched.


On a turn the Sea Cat moves, its maximum non-crit damage is 1d6+4, and it has no reach. It's not going to be taking people out unless they want to sit there and invite a full-attack. The Polar Bear has this problem too to some extent, mitigated much by the fast that 1d8+8 is painful enough that it can kill people without needing those full attacks, if they don't shut it down or run away quickly.

Also, as previously noted, the AC gap is widely mitigated by the Polar Bear having 33% more hp than the Sea Cat. Against a normal party, I'd expect that to have a significant contribution towards lifespan. Now, +3 AC vs 33% hp is an interesting question, but I'd say that's at very least a fair trade for many monsters.

At 4th level, a full attack against a sea-cat isn't very effective. Either A) you're not high enough to have you iterative attack, or B) you're dual wielding, and thus taking a further -2 penalty on each attack versus its high armor class.

Also, the +3 armor class is pretty significant. While the warrior-type with a +4 BAB, +3 strength, +1 masterwork weapon can hit the cat on a 10+; assuming attacking with a piercing weapon such as a spear or harpoon;
while the rest of the party will have more problems - and given the under-water situation the squishy members cannot hang back and shoot.

The polar bear has 33% more HP, but its lower armor class invites an easier ability to focus-fire on it. As I noted before, the fighter types who can hit the sea-cat effectively could deal +6 damage per hit against the polar bear with the same hit %. Not to mention that more party members, such rogues, bards, clerics, and druids can hit the polar bear more readily, which contributes more and more damage.

There are several ways a sea-cat can effectively target a party. It could simply rush in for the nearest tasty meat, open the fight (which could be a surprise due to darkvision) with a disarm (against a flat footed foe) or claw attack (to try and deal a bit of damage), or with a grapple attempt (its +14 modifier is just fine at those levels too). Now, here's where the cat's speed comes into play.

Should the cat decide to take a bite out of a party member, and begin grappling, all it has to do is survive the first wave of attacks (remember, the warrior types have the best chance to hurt it at all). Now, on its turn, it uses a standard action + opposed grapple check to move 1/2 its speed away from the party, dragging the grappled character away and deeper into the water. Now for those who have been paying attention, with a successful swim check you can move one QUARTER your land speed under water as a move action, or one HALF as a FULL-ROUND ACTION. The sea-cat is moving at 20ft away from the party who cannot keep up.

By this point, the poor guy grabbed by the sea-cat best hope that he can overcome the cat's 18 AC while grappling with the cat (who can still attack with all of its natural attacks and rend while holding its breath longer than you).

The party at least has the option to catch the polar bear (since they could full-round action + attack of opportunity if the bear attempts to move again).

Makes me want to include an aquatic encounter in my next game. :smallsmile:

sonofzeal
2010-02-16, 02:52 PM
At 4th level, a full attack against a sea-cat isn't very effective. Either A) you're not high enough to have you iterative attack, or B) you're dual wielding, and thus taking a further -2 penalty on each attack versus its high armor class.

Also, the +3 armor class is pretty significant. While the warrior-type with a +4 BAB, +3 strength, +1 masterwork weapon can hit the cat on a 10+; assuming attacking with a piercing weapon such as a spear or harpoon;
while the rest of the party will have more problems - and given the under-water situation the squishy members cannot hang back and shoot.

The polar bear has 33% more HP, but its lower armor class invites an easier ability to focus-fire on it. As I noted before, the fighter types who can hit the sea-cat effectively could deal +6 damage per hit against the polar bear with the same hit %. Not to mention that more party members, such rogues, bards, clerics, and druids can hit the polar bear more readily, which contributes more and more damage.

There are several ways a sea-cat can effectively target a party. It could simply rush in for the nearest tasty meat, open the fight (which could be a surprise due to darkvision) with a disarm (against a flat footed foe) or claw attack (to try and deal a bit of damage), or with a grapple attempt (its +14 modifier is just fine at those levels too). Now, here's where the cat's speed comes into play.

Should the cat decide to take a bite out of a party member, and begin grappling, all it has to do is survive the first wave of attacks (remember, the warrior types have the best chance to hurt it at all). Now, on its turn, it uses a standard action + opposed grapple check to move 1/2 its speed away from the party, dragging the grappled character away and deeper into the water. Now for those who have been paying attention, with a successful swim check you can move one QUARTER your land speed under water as a move action, or one HALF as a FULL-ROUND ACTION. The sea-cat is moving at 20ft away from the party who cannot keep up.

By this point, the poor guy grabbed by the sea-cat best hope that he can overcome the cat's 18 AC while grappling with the cat (who can still attack with all of its natural attacks and rend while holding its breath longer than you).

The party at least has the option to catch the polar bear (since they could full-round action + attack of opportunity if the bear attempts to move again).

Makes me want to include an aquatic encounter in my next game. :smallsmile:
Two problems

1) It's completely contrary to the listed behaviour in the MM1. Sea Cats "always" fight to the death, attacking purely with claws and bites. They don't disarm, they don't grapple, they don't grab one person and swim off with him. The MM1 is pretty clear on how they fight.

2) You're talking Tucker's Kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/). Any monster played intelligently, creatively, in an advantageous environment, becomes far more dangerous. That's kind of obvious, isn't it? Equally obvious is that, since just about any creature in the book can be made far more effective this way, you can't use that to justify the CR. And, just like the aquatic environment, you most especially can't use it to justify one creature's CR but then refuse to use it to justify another creature's who can pretty much pull all the same tricks and others as well.



Anyway, looking through the numbers a bit more, it seems that it's less that Sea Cat is too weak for its CR, and more that the Polar Bear is too strong. It wouldn't win straight-up fights against Gargoyles because it can't beat the DR, but is far more dangerous than any other "brute" sort I can find in MM1. You pretty much have to Tuckerize and play other monsters as evilly as possible, to match the threat level posed by a Polar Bear played as a dumb brute.

That said, there may be a couple other CR4 enemies that are also disproportionately dangerous. Most of them could probably seriously mess up a lvl 4 party if played intelligently and creatively, but just because you can kill a party with Kobolds doesn't make the Great Wyrm Red Dragon any less dangerous.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-16, 03:07 PM
Two problems

1) It's completely contrary to the listed behaviour in the MM1. Sea Cats "always" fight to the death, attacking purely with claws and bites. They don't disarm, they don't grapple, they don't grab one person and swim off with him. The MM1 is pretty clear on how they fight.

2) You're talking Tucker's Kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/). Any monster played intelligently, creatively, in an advantageous environment, becomes far more dangerous. That's kind of obvious, isn't it? Equally obvious is that, since just about any creature in the book can be made far more effective this way, you can't use that to justify the CR. And, just like the aquatic environment, you most especially can't use it to justify one creature's CR but then refuse to use it to justify another creature's who can pretty much pull all the same tricks and others as well.



Anyway, looking through the numbers a bit more, it seems that it's less that Sea Cat is too weak for its CR, and more that the Polar Bear is too strong. It wouldn't win straight-up fights against Gargoyles because it can't beat the DR, but is far more dangerous than any other "brute" sort I can find in MM1. You pretty much have to Tuckerize and play other monsters as evilly as possible, to match the threat level posed by a Polar Bear played as a dumb brute.

That said, there may be a couple other CR4 enemies that are also disproportionately dangerous. Most of them could probably seriously mess up a lvl 4 party if played intelligently and creatively, but just because you can kill a party with Kobolds doesn't make the Great Wyrm Red Dragon any less dangerous.


actualy you do need to take enviroment into account with cr. As typical enviromental factors play into it.
Yes a polar bear can be fought in the water.
Most likly though you won't encounter one in the water and even if you do it will mostlikly try to get you to land or fight you there...

The sea cat does have the breath thing and it knows it... so draging pray down to the depths isn't an uncommany thing there are some animals that do that... I belive some aligotors or other river creatures will try to drown there pray(can't remember off the top of my head) but dragging it to the depths would be a valid average tactic for a sea cat... though the disarming thing i agree.


though i do agree with the tuckerising thing its one thing that when looking at crs you have to be carful of.

Ashiel
2010-02-16, 03:47 PM
Two problems

1) It's completely contrary to the listed behaviour in the MM1. Sea Cats "always" fight to the death, attacking purely with claws and bites. They don't disarm, they don't grapple, they don't grab one person and swim off with him. The MM1 is pretty clear on how they fight.

2) You're talking Tucker's Kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/). Any monster played intelligently, creatively, in an advantageous environment, becomes far more dangerous. That's kind of obvious, isn't it? Equally obvious is that, since just about any creature in the book can be made far more effective this way, you can't use that to justify the CR. And, just like the aquatic environment, you most especially can't use it to justify one creature's CR but then refuse to use it to justify another creature's who can pretty much pull all the same tricks and others as well.

Anyway, looking through the numbers a bit more, it seems that it's less that Sea Cat is too weak for its CR, and more that the Polar Bear is too strong. It wouldn't win straight-up fights against Gargoyles because it can't beat the DR, but is far more dangerous than any other "brute" sort I can find in MM1. You pretty much have to Tuckerize and play other monsters as evilly as possible, to match the threat level posed by a Polar Bear played as a dumb brute.

That said, there may be a couple other CR4 enemies that are also disproportionately dangerous. Most of them could probably seriously mess up a lvl 4 party if played intelligently and creatively, but just because you can kill a party with Kobolds doesn't make the Great Wyrm Red Dragon any less dangerous.

So then don't disarm. It's thematic, and would likely be done by biting at the opponent and grabbing their weapon instead of their arm. I mean, it's not like they have the improved disarm feat, so it's not a huge stretch of the imagination or anything that they just managed to grab it on accident; in story it's cool, in mechanics it was just a random disarm to spice things up.


Sea cats attack on sight, either for food or to defend their territory, and use both claws and teeth to grab and rend their prey. They display tremendous courage, always fighting to the death, even against creatures many times their size. Pairs and prides of sea cats attack in concert, trying to wear the opponent down until one beast can dispatch it.

Nothing I suggested is out of line with the description. Grabbing and dragging an opponent away and down is far from being outside something of animal intelligence, and sounds like something a hunter would do if trying to hunt something in a group (IE - party, or a group of sea lions, or maybe other large and dangerous prey); especially since it doesn't stop it from doing its claw/claw/bite/rend thing when it pulls its prey away.

It's not a matter of tucker's kobolds. It's not a sea cat who's intellectually weaving between various underwater ice pillars, or one who's strategically targeting just the spellcasters. It's using tactics employed by many aquatic predators and using only its listed statistics in its entry.

I mean, if dragging an opponent deeper into the water to slaughter it in peace is out of the question - since they apparently must stand and fight every other creature in sight; then I guess sea cats won't need to worry about hunting adventurers 'cause they'll all be dead (since obviously they must attack bigger stronger sea monsters on sight, and fight to the death). The way I read it, it seems like if the party was to invade its territory (read - lair or similar spot) then they wouldn't flee from the party members and would fight until dead.

Again, its obviously capable of tag-teaming and singling out a single enemy, so "until dead" could easily be taking one party member out at a time, until either A) all are dead, or B) it is dead.

Ashiel
2010-02-16, 04:37 PM
Also, another thing about fighting until dead. This also tends to mean that they don't flee if their hit points drop too low, or if the fight is going against them (four sea cats down to one sea cats for example), and so forth. No where does their tactics specifically say "They swim up and then make only claw/claw/bite/rend attacks, and must sit there and let people stick pointy objects into them 'cause they are teh brave."

It seems you are intentionally interpreting them to do the absolute dumbest thing they could do in any situation. If that's the case, then yes, yes indeed whomever has the higher +hit/+dmg will always be better, because nothing else becomes a factor other than strait modifiers.

You mentioned matching the polar bear vs other CR 4 enemies, with only dragons coming out ahead. Well duh, it's a brute. If you're having them fight each other head on, then of course the biggest brute wins. A sea-cat doesn't need to be able to kill a polar bear, nor does grick need to be able to kill a carrion crawler! They just have to be dangerous to a party in their given environments at the appropriate levels. The sea lion is more dangerous in the water against a party than a bear is; which is fine. The fact the bear is dangerous on land AND in water is fine too. It has more HP because it needs them due to its lower AC. A sea cat's options are bad against the bear, but all a party's options are not, nor is the sea cat's options bad against the party.

Tucker's Kobolds it isn't.

sonofzeal
2010-02-16, 07:15 PM
actualy you do need to take enviroment into account with cr. As typical enviromental factors play into it.
Yes a polar bear can be fought in the water.
Most likly though you won't encounter one in the water and even if you do it will mostlikly try to get you to land or fight you there...
Environmental factors do play in. I'm not suggesting they don't. Something that swims has an advantage over something that doesn't, that should be obvious. However, what I object to is saying that a creature which is really dangerous in multiple environments is less dangerous than something which is only dangerous in one (and not even all that dangerous, compared to the first guy).

On some imaginary 10-point scale, Polar Bears might be a 6/10 on land and an 8/10 in the water. Sea Cats may be a 2/10 on land, and a 7/10 in the water. Which is the more dangerous opponent? And how does the ability of the Polar Bear to also fight effectively on land in any way reduce the value of its deadliness under water?


Also, another thing about fighting until dead. This also tends to mean that they don't flee if their hit points drop too low, or if the fight is going against them (four sea cats down to one sea cats for example), and so forth. No where does their tactics specifically say "They swim up and then make only claw/claw/bite/rend attacks, and must sit there and let people stick pointy objects into them 'cause they are teh brave."
See, "always fighting to the death" to me implies that they don't leave a fight until they've won or are dead. That's, y'know, usually what "fighting to the death" means. Ignoring other attackers while they swim away with a snack? Yeah, that's not "fighting to the death". I'll admit I was a bit hasty dismissing Grapple and Disarm, but given that they don't have reach or feat support for either, I wouldn't really count these as significant tactics. Both produce AoOs, and if the AoO hits then the attempt fails. Anyway, the Polar Bear can Disarm better than the Sea Cat, and can Grapple better too.


You mentioned matching the polar bear vs other CR 4 enemies, with only dragons coming out ahead. Well duh, it's a brute.
Yes, the Polar Bear's a brute. So is the Sea Cat, by the exact same standards. Both have almost identical tactical flexibility (Polar Bear wins since it also has Hide and a good land speed). Both have almost identical intelligence (Polar Bear wins, as it's not obligated to fight to the death). In what possible world is the Polar Bear a brute and the Sea Cat not? Just because the one is better at it than the other?

The whole premise of this thread is that some monsters are stronger than others for their CR. If you deny this, and think the CR system is balanced, and try to force it to be so by creatively inventing tactics/scenarios for some monsters but denying those same tactics to equally capable alternatives, then there's really not much more I can say to you.

Ashiel
2010-02-16, 08:50 PM
Environmental factors do play in. I'm not suggesting they don't. Something that swims has an advantage over something that doesn't, that should be obvious. However, what I object to is saying that a creature which is really dangerous in multiple environments is less dangerous than something which is only dangerous in one (and not even all that dangerous, compared to the first guy).

Except I never said that, and that should be obvious too (since, y'know, I didn't). I did say that the other creature was more dangerous in a given environment - the environment it is intended for. Which, as I showed, the sea cat is more dangerous because it can break up a party and kill someone without an effective way to retaliate.


On some imaginary 10-point scale, Polar Bears might be a 6/10 on land and an 8/10 in the water. Sea Cats may be a 2/10 on land, and a 7/10 in the water. Which is the more dangerous opponent? And how does the ability of the Polar Bear to also fight effectively on land in any way reduce the value of its deadliness under water?

Again, I never said it did. I said the polar bear was an all around great enemy for land and water. I mentioned that while the polar bear has an easier time of grappling, he cannot break an opponent off from the party as easy to kill him then circle back around to the rest of the group. I gave mechanical explanations for this as well. I'm not arguing that the sea-cat is somehow better than the polar bear, nor am I arguing that the polar bear isn't better in more situations. I am arguing that in its given environment, the sea cat is equally or more dangerous.


See, "always fighting to the death" to me implies that they don't leave a fight until they've won or are dead. That's, y'know, usually what "fighting to the death" means. Ignoring other attackers while they swim away with a snack? Yeah, that's not "fighting to the death". I'll admit I was a bit hasty dismissing Grapple and Disarm, but given that they don't have reach or feat support for either, I wouldn't really count these as significant tactics. Both produce AoOs, and if the AoO hits then the attempt fails. Anyway, the Polar Bear can Disarm better than the Sea Cat, and can Grapple better too.

Since it's obvious that the always fighting to the death part is open to interpretation, it seems we cannot use this as a firm footing either way. You see it as meaning it must engage every party member in melee, rather than acting as a real animal predator would. I see it as you can't make it back down because you've hurt it. You're not going to inflict some damage and make it let go of your friends or you and run away; nor is it afraid of much larger things by default (as it notes in its entry). There's a difference between fighting to the death, and fighting to die.

Grabbing one creature, dragging it into the depths to kill it in safety, and then repeating to do the same? The entry says they can single out individual creatures one at a time, and use pack hunting tactics. Again, this seems to be an interpretation difference; so we may both have uneasy footing here.

Disarming, Grappling, and so forth are not major tactics of the sea cat, but they are valid ones. Their higher armor class makes it easier to do so, as does their ability to suddenly come upon a group of characters with a charge (flat footed people don't get AoOs), and if they were to disarm on the first turn, then grapple on the second, the target likely doesn't threaten with their unarmed strike; again making it an easy grab.

The polar bear of course can grapple better, but cannot drag party members away as easily, as I noted before. The party can more easily catch the polar bear; while the sea cat can literally pin an opponent, then drag them (with a +4 bonus to their grapple check 'cause the foe is pinned) into the depths; while the party can do little to retaliate.

The sea cat is a brute, but its a brute with tricks! It's a brute with a fast speed. It's a brute with a high grapple check. It's a brute that can hold it's breath underwater and strait up out-last anything it drags into the depths. It's a brute that fights by targeting individual targets, and knows how to effectively tag-team. It's not valid for charming, has more well-rounded defenses, and a higher armor class at the cost of raw damage.

In short, it's not a polar bear. It won't be a polar bear and doesn't have to fight like a polar bear. Is it still adequately dangerous to a 4th level party? Could it harm some of the party considerably, with some risk for killing someone? You-betcha! :smallbiggrin:



Yes, the Polar Bear's a brute. So is the Sea Cat, by the exact same standards. Both have almost identical tactical flexibility (Polar Bear wins since it also has Hide and a good land speed). Both have almost identical intelligence (Polar Bear wins, as it's not obligated to fight to the death). In what possible world is the Polar Bear a brute and the Sea Cat not? Just because the one is better at it than the other?

Again, I call into question the tactical flexibility bit, since Fight_To_Death != Fight_Badly. Alternatively, one could say the polar bear was easier, since it doesn't mention that it doesn't fight to the death - so if the battle turns against it (say too many of its HP are eaten away) the polar-bear might turn tail and run; ending the fight early. This isn't uncommon in well written WotC adventures either (check the Red Hand of Doom for some examples).

As to the brute, see my last comment.


The whole premise of this thread is that some monsters are stronger than others for their CR. If you deny this, and think the CR system is balanced, and try to force it to be so by creatively inventing tactics/scenarios for some monsters but denying those same tactics to equally capable alternatives, then there's really not much more I can say to you.

I actually never said that either. I said I think it works pretty well. Some monsters have vastly exaggerated or under-represented difficulties; particularly in source-books (like the MM-II). I do think most of the monsters in the MM I and SRD are pretty solid though. Some of them tend to take those who are unprepared for a rough ride (shadows and allips are probably some of the more universally feared ones), but most seem to consider the overall picture pretty well.

Also, as I noted, I never denied the polar bear the tactics I was suggesting with the sea-cat. I'm not sure why you are insisting that I am; because that's just a flat-out lie. I specifically said the polar bear can pull the drag-into-the-depths stunt, but since its swim speed is slower, the party can catch the bear and attack it if it tries to do so; whereas the cat outruns the party while moving with the grappled foe. I never said that he couldn't try it, but that it was less effective against the party.

Please, stop putting words in my mouth and lying. Thank you. :smallannoyed:

Starbuck_II
2010-02-16, 09:03 PM
I tend to look for reasons why something has the CR it has. Give the designers some credit.

CR 2 crab with +19 grapple? What are its init, hide/move silently, listen/spot, and speed? If its slow, they pcs can just stay away and peg away. Also, its a vermin so it literally cannot think.


Untrue. Read the combat tactics. It grapples a foe + another then walks under water to devour it prey (while they drown or already crushed to death).

I'll add the Ice Devil: CR 13 but better than most CR 13's. On an underlated note: beats all the non-caster level 13 (15, etc) pregens of Pathfinder :smallbiggrin:

Thurbane
2010-02-16, 09:06 PM
Using SRD only, a Ghaele Zombie (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140875) is a pretty tough fight for CR6, but can easily be neutralized by the rights spells or tactics.

sonofzeal
2010-02-16, 09:28 PM
Okay, I'm going to try to distill all of that. Basically, you seem to be saying that Sea Cat is just as effective as the Polar Bear overall, even though it's worse in just about every other possible way, because it can grab things and swim off with them?

Even here, the Polar Bear wins. The Sea Cat has to suffer through AoO's to ever initiate a grapple, and if it gets hit the action is wasted and it takes damage. Also, the Sea Cat has a low enough Grapple mod that even a pansy Wizard could hope to beat it on a good role, and can't count on being able to carry anyone off unless it kills them first, which it's unlikely to do with 1d6+4 damage. And, you really have to stretch the wording of "always fights to the death" to allow this type of tactic in the first place; running away from a fight while there's enemies at your back trying to kill you really seems to be against their tactics block as I see it. I can respect your disagreement on this particular point, but even if you allow that they aren't very good at this tactic.

The Polar Bear has none of these problems. Improved Grab means it doesn't have to worry about AoO's, and even better it means it doesn't have to waste actions on a tactic that may not work. It also has a higher Grapple mod, making it significantly more reliable and much harder to escape. The speed advantage is meaningless, as even the Polar Bear is going to massively out-pace a party that's relying on (half-speed, remember) swim checks. Granted the Polar Bear doesn't have "Hold Breath", but with its Con it can considerably out-last most party members, or just drag them off somewhere and continue mauling them. Either works, and neither is even questionable by established fluff.



The Sea Cat is a brute, but it's not a brute with tricks. It's a brute like any other brute, and any tricks you can try to pull with it are going to be your tricks, not the creature's. It's probably dangerous enough if you play it smart, in an advantageous environment, but so is everything.

Can we at least agree that the Polar Bear is more appropriate to the CR 5 tier, with such things as the Ettin Skeleton (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm) or Troll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm)(which do less damage than it, with a lower attack bonus, and lack any significant built-in tactic)? The Troll at least is harder to kill, and the Skeleton has some immunities, so it's a more level playing field.

sofawall
2010-02-16, 10:43 PM
Some monsters have vastly exaggerated or under-represented difficulties; particularly in source-books (like the MM-II). I do think most of the monsters in the MM I and SRD are pretty solid though.


So core is not a source book? I guess I should stop using it then.
And as for my opinion of the matter, any "puzzle monster" is pretty much going to have a really stupid CR. Like that ridiculous undead Baboon thing, if you are prepared, you win, if you aren't, you lose. It's just that simple. In the case of the Baboon, if you don't have turning, you are going to be hurting, and you are extremely likely to lose a party member.

Xenogears
2010-02-16, 11:15 PM
I would just like to chime in that Polar Bears hunt in the water all the time. I know this, most of the people I know know this, I think this is a commonly known thing. So why would you be surprised that the fight with the Polar Bear is in the water?

Ashiel
2010-02-17, 12:28 AM
Okay, I'm going to try to distill all of that. Basically, you seem to be saying that Sea Cat is just as effective as the Polar Bear overall, even though it's worse in just about every other possible way, because it can grab things and swim off with them?

No, I said it was a legitimately threatening CR 4 creature in the environment it is expected to encounter a group of level 4 adventurers; with the adventurers being capable of surviving / killing it without too much trouble, but with a chance that they could be hurt badly or one of the party members die. Which is, interestingly, exactly what it's supposed to be.


Even here, the Polar Bear wins. The Sea Cat has to suffer through AoO's to ever initiate a grapple, and if it gets hit the action is wasted and it takes damage. Also, the Sea Cat has a low enough Grapple mod that even a pansy Wizard could hope to beat it on a good role, and can't count on being able to carry anyone off unless it kills them first, which it's unlikely to do with 1d6+4 damage. And, you really have to stretch the wording of "always fights to the death" to allow this type of tactic in the first place; running away from a fight while there's enemies at your back trying to kill you really seems to be against their tactics block as I see it. I can respect your disagreement on this particular point, but even if you allow that they aren't very good at this tactic.

Again, if the sea-cat catches someone flat footed, then it doesn't provoke. If it does provoke, it has an 18 AC to help avoid it. If the person does hit them and stops the grapple, they can attempt to swim away, which could provoke attacks (which can then be used to grapple without provoking), so as long as the sea-cat doesn't suffer 51 damage in a very short time (again, note that it's very difficult to focus fire the cat down like this). If it fails on its grapple AoO, it can rush to grapple again.

I don't know how you expect "even a pansy wizard" to trust in overcoming a +14 grapple modifier at 4th level, since your lowest available roll is 15 on a 1. This is more than enough to reasonably expect to work. A warrior character (assuming +4 BAB and a +4 strength, which is fairly generous, I think at 4th level) is 30% more likely to be beaten by the cat. Other types have even less chances. A 4th level wizard has a +2 BAB and probably a +2 strength at best, meaning that it must roll no less than 12 points higher than the cat on the d20 to resist it, or 16 points higher if they have already been pinned and the cat is dragging them into the depths.

Where are you getting your info? :smallfrown:

There are chances that the players can avoid getting killed like this, but the fact remains the threat is very, very real. It's also very difficult to save someone who is getting owned like this, again because of the sea-cat's higher movement speed, which is being conveniently ignored.


The Polar Bear has none of these problems. Improved Grab means it doesn't have to worry about AoO's, and even better it means it doesn't have to waste actions on a tactic that may not work. It also has a higher Grapple mod, making it significantly more reliable and much harder to escape. The speed advantage is meaningless, as even the Polar Bear is going to massively out-pace a party that's relying on (half-speed, remember) swim checks. Granted the Polar Bear doesn't have "Hold Breath", but with its Con it can considerably out-last most party members, or just drag them off somewhere and continue mauling them. Either works, and neither is even questionable by established fluff.

Again, as noted before, the polar bear can more easily grapple. However, getting away with said victim is more difficult for the polar bear. It could float their mauling the character, but like the cat, would be letting itself open for being focus fired by other party members - who he no longer threatens so they can move to engage him freely, and he is also flat footed against, reducing his AC to 14, which grants those same warriors the ability to hit him 55% of the time with a +8 bonus to damage from power attack, and likely allows precision damage characters (like rogues) the ability to hit with both attacks and get into flanking positions.

If the bear decides to forgo its full attack and drag the opponent into the depths, the party can full-round action to move with the polar bear, then make AoOs against it if it continues moving away, before they full-round move again.



The Sea Cat is a brute, but it's not a brute with tricks. It's a brute like any other brute, and any tricks you can try to pull with it are going to be your tricks, not the creature's. It's probably dangerous enough if you play it smart, in an advantageous environment, but so is everything.

Except you are denying the sea-cat the advantages it actually has. 3.x doesn't have dedicated listings for "brute", "controller", "striker", "skirmisher", it has creatures with stats and abilities. You say it's a brute and has no tricks. I'm showing you it's brutish with tricks. It's not a brute like any other brute, or all brutes would be the same. It's not in an advantageous environment, it's in its natural environment. It's not that it has cover and the party doesn't, or that it's firing bolts and throwing acid bombs from inside a tower, or biting and grabbing from murder holes; it is just attacking with its claws and teeth and acting like an aquatic predator.


Can we at least agree that the Polar Bear is more appropriate to the CR 5 tier, with such things as the Ettin Skeleton (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm) or Troll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm)(which do less damage than it, with a lower attack bonus, and lack any significant built-in tactic)? The Troll at least is harder to kill, and the Skeleton has some immunities, so it's a more level playing field.

I would say that there is a good argument for polar bears being CR 5 creatures, or very strong CR 4 creatures. They're effectively brown bears (CR 4) with +2HD and more abilities, but the same CR; which is questionable. The polar bear also deals a lot of damage for its given CR; but does lack the defensive qualities of some creatures of similar CR; and is very vulnerable to groups. Trolls aren't quite a vulnerable to groups (slightly higher AC, coupled with regeneration helps them keep going). Ettins are more defensive, deal more damage, have more combat options, and have reach; and no less than four attacks dealing 2d6+6 each. The undead version is probably weaker IMO, but again it has its own set of resistances to help counter that fact.

It'd say it's open to debate; and I wouldn't argue much in that regard. I was just pointing out that sea-cats are far from a gimme encounter, and that they are quite dangerous for a CR 4 creature given their options and features.


So core is not a source book? I guess I should stop using it then.
And as for my opinion of the matter, any "puzzle monster" is pretty much going to have a really stupid CR. Like that ridiculous undead Baboon thing, if you are prepared, you win, if you aren't, you lose. It's just that simple. In the case of the Baboon, if you don't have turning, you are going to be hurting, and you are extremely likely to lose a party member.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. By source-book, I meant the same thing as splat-book. Extra books. Optional books. I've seen a number of crazy borked creatures in a fair amount of out-side core material that makes you step back and wonder what was going on (that damn crab being a fine example :smalltongue:). Please, understand I'm not suggesting that source-books are inherently flawed, or that core isn't broken in places, or anything silly like that. I've noticed a lot more badly CRed monsters in the various source-books I've got on my shelf, than I have within the MM1/SRD.


I would just like to chime in that Polar Bears hunt in the water all the time. I know this, most of the people I know know this, I think this is a commonly known thing. So why would you be surprised that the fight with the Polar Bear is in the water?

If this is directed at me, please allow me to say: I wouldn't be surprised that a polar bear is in the water. Never said I would. A polar bear fights in the water much like it fights on land. It makes use of its claws and natural grappling capabilities. It has a speed advantage on land and in water; except when grappling in either case. It's very good at literally tearing opponents apart before they can kill it. It cannot, as effectively, pull little stunts to separate a party. It instead is better of trying to break them like cheap toothpicks.

The party is more or less in a similar mess in both land and water when fighting a polar bear. The polar bear is still better in the water than on land, most likely (while it's faster on land, the difficulties of attacking it with ranged, bladed, or bludgeoning weapons helps greatly).

sonofzeal
2010-02-17, 02:18 AM
You know, I think we can come to an agreement here. I'll grant that Sea Cat is a viable CR 4 threat, with the understanding that Polar Bear is closer to a CR 5 threat.

Comparison to the Ettin Skeleton is especially telling. Polar Bear has higher AC (by +4), higher hp (by 3), higher attack bonus (+3), equal damage, more attacks (by one), faster land speed (by 10), better grapple (by 3) and better overall saves (by 7).

Ettin Skeleton (considerably weaker than an actual Ettin, which I think you were looking at) has better reach, Initiative, DR, and immunities. It also has a +4 (1d8+6) ranged attack.

Honestly, I'd rather be fighting the Ettin Skeleton in most situations, especially if the Polar Bear is using its not-insubstantial Hide bonus to gain a Surprise Round at point blank range.





As to the grapple, a Pansy Wizard is going to have a grapple of around 2 at that level. This gives it a disadvantage of 12. The Wizard, assuming they lack a single spell that can do anything to help, or have a positive strength modifier, or have an Escape Artist check of anything better than 2, will win Grapple checks against the Sea Cat about 10% of the time. A 90% advantage is pretty good, but in an extended chase where the Sea Cat only gains 10' a round, that's something. If the Sea Cat needs to succeed on five grapple checks (including the initial one) to get away with the wizard, then it's only going to get away clean 60% of the time. A Rogue (ignoring Escape Artist) with Str 12 wins checks 14% of the time, and the Sea Cat's total odds drop below 50%. A Fighter with Str 16 wins about 23% of the time, and the Sea Cat's total odds drop to 27%.

Anyway, that doesn't invalidate the tactic. The PCs shouldn't be dying on an even-CR encounter. If the Sea Cat can get next to the Wizard, and grapple him without anybody AoOing, then yeah the Wizard's in a pretty bad spot, but even he has at least a decent hope of escape, even in that worst-case scenario.

Ashiel
2010-02-17, 02:28 AM
You know, I think we can come to an agreement here. I'll grant that Sea Cat is a viable CR 4 threat, if you grant that Polar Bear is closer to a CR 5 threat.

Comparison to the Ettin Skeleton is especially telling. Polar Bear has higher AC (by +4), higher hp (by 3), higher attack bonus (+3), equal damage, more attacks (by one), faster land speed (by 10), better grapple (by 3) and better overall saves (by 7).

Ettin Skeleton (considerably weaker than an actual Ettin, which I think you were looking at) has better reach, Initiative, DR, and immunities. It also has a +4 (1d8+6) ranged attack.

Honestly, I'd rather be fighting the Ettin Skeleton in most situations, especially if the Polar Bear is using its not-insubstantial Hide bonus to gain a Surprise Round at point blank range.





As to the grapple, a Pansy Wizard is going to have a grapple of around 2 at that level. This gives it a disadvantage of 12. The Wizard, assuming they lack a single spell that can do anything to help, or have a positive strength modifier, or have an Escape Artist check of anything better than 2, will win Grapple checks against the Sea Cat about 10% of the time. A 90% advantage is pretty good, but in an extended chase where the Sea Cat only gains 10' a round, that's something. If the Sea Cat needs to succeed on five grapple checks (including the initial one) to get away with the wizard, then it's only going to get away clean 60% of the time. A Rogue (ignoring Escape Artist) with Str 12 wins checks 14% of the time, and the Sea Cat's total odds drop below 50%. A Fighter with Str 16 wins about 23% of the time, and the Sea Cat's total odds drop to 27%.

Anyway, that doesn't invalidate the tactic. The PCs shouldn't be dying on an even-CR encounter. If the Sea Cat can get next to the Wizard, and grapple him without anybody AoOing, then yeah the Wizard's in a pretty bad spot, but even he has at least a decent hope of escape, even in that worst-case scenario.

Heh, like I said previously; the argument that the polar bear is probably closer to a CR 5 is pretty fair in my opinion. It is very comparable to most CR 5 creatures, and when compared to the CR 4 brown bear would seem to logically be CR 5 (being an improved version of the brown bear). The undead ettin kinda sucks, but yeah I was using the regular ettin, which is still CR 5 (odd that, I admit :smalltongue:). EDIT: On further consideration, I guess they figured it was still dangerous since gained a number of decent immunities and still had roughly the same killing potential in damage.

It's worth noting that the CR system isn't infallible, and the designers do make mistakes. I tend to think it works pretty decently though, for its intended purposes. Paizo took it a step further with their Pathfinder RPG; actually giving specific guidelines for exactly how strong a creature should be of any given CR; with some room for tweaking it too.

So yeah, in short, I can agree that the Polar Bear is probably a good CR 5 creature. The brown bear, tiger, sea-cat, and so forth are all pretty good examples of CR 4 creatures (they're all physical based, and each has mechanics that work well in their environments that make them dangers - especially the tiger :smallsmile:).

It wouldn't be the first time WotC erred either. If you've ever checked the Blue Goblins (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/blue.htm), it becomes obvious that they make mistakes (seriously, a +1 LA on that? C'mon. :smalltongue:).

It's been a good conversation either way, I would say. :smallsmile:

/respect bow

sonofzeal
2010-02-17, 02:33 AM
It's been a good conversation either way, I would say. :smallsmile:

/respect bow
A good conversation indeed. I'm glad we worked things out. :)


Out of curiosity, are there any monsters you'd say are over-CR'd, that really belong in a lower tier?

Ashiel
2010-02-17, 02:50 AM
A good conversation indeed. I'm glad we worked things out. :)

Out of curiosity, are there any monsters you'd say are over-CR'd, that really belong in a lower tier?

Hmmm. Probably. It's 2:59am here, and I'm hittin' the sack, but I'll get back to you later today with some considerations. :smallsmile:

Ashiel
2010-02-17, 07:12 PM
Out of curiosity, are there any monsters you'd say are over-CR'd, that really belong in a lower tier?

Ok, here's one. I decided to pick a CR and skim the MM / SRD for creatures; and compare them with honest consideration. Out of the CR 6 creatures, I found some great examples of the CR, and I found one that was lacking.

I found the Digester (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/digester.htm) lacking a bit. It's stats are pretty low, even for a CR 5 creature. The only saving grace it has is its very high speed (60ft), but it's both land-bound and can't really hurt anyone seriously 'till they get into melee-ish range (20ft or less); so they're very vulnerable to ranged attacks. By 6th level, the 17 AC isn't very good (Warrior types will be sporting a 50% chance to hit by BAB alone, before adding modifiers from abilities and enhancements), and it lacks any other major defensive abilities beyond immunity to acid.

It's main attack / special trick is a 20ft cone of acid which deals an average of 18 damage, with a reflex save for half. If it's within 5ft of its target, it can make a single-target acid spray that deals an average of 36 damage; again with a reflex save for half. Either way, it takes an average of 2.5 (d4) rounds before it can do it again. While the save DC is fairly high (DC 17), it's not not really anything better than a 5th level fireball; unless it gets within 5ft. However, getting within 5ft is bad for it, because its only physical attack is a claw attack (+11 to hit) for 1d8+4 (average 8dmg).

It personally think the Polar Bear is scarier than this thing. Assuming the party has enough HP to not be taken out by its acid spray the first time (4-36, average 18 damage), its within charge / point blank shot distance of everyone (20ft for the acid spray). A d8 HD character will likely have at least 36hp (assuming average and +1 constitution bonus), and should survive it unless it rolls four 8s for damage and the character fails the saving throw).

Also, by this level, the 2nd level spell Resist Energy is easily attainable and any smart party should be carrying around a few wands, scrolls, potions, or x/day items of such; and shuts the digester down.

---

Compare to a Kyton (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#chainDevilKyton). The kyton is also fairly weak offensively compared to many CR 6 creatures; however it possesses a number of tricks which can make life very difficult.

Firstly the Kyton's damage isn't stellar, but its dancing chains ability effectively doubles its number of attacks and allows it to full attack while moving (since it's a standard action to control four chains and allow them to attack, leaving the kyton a 30ft move action). The kyton can also use one of the chains to avoid obstacles and terrain, as it can move its speed up and across them without Climb checks.

Second, the Kyton's small damage reduction helps, since at 6th level everyone should be carrying around magic weapons, but silver weapons might not be a major investment, and some parties may not have considered packing some align weapon spells. Coupled with its minor regeneration which is only overcome by silver or good aligned weapons, can give the kyton a bit more staying power to compensate for it's modest 52 hit points.

More so is the Kyton's 18 spell-resistance. At 6th level, barring feats like Spell Penetration, casters need to roll at least a 12 to affect them. That's a 60% chance to fail. It also has cold immunity, but that's a bit more situational.

EDIT: I almost forgot! The kyton sports a gaze attack with a DC 13 save or suffer a -2 penalty to all attacks, saves, and checks for 1d3 rounds. Interestingly enough, this can affect people multiple times per day, so you will end up saving (and eventually failing) multiple times if the battle drags on.

All in all, lots of good tricks there; especially since the Kyton can grapple, disarm, and so forth with the dancing chains. They have offense, control, reach, tactical movement, and a variety of cute little resistances. :smallsmile:

--

Also compare to a Babou, Demon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#babau). The babau is particularly vicious. Like the Kyton, its offensive prowess doesn't come from its strait damage (which is actually rather poor; consisting of a pair of 1d6+5 claws, and a 1d6+2 bite). Instead the Babau is a trickster that is hard to hurt, and punishes those who do.

Firstly, it's DR 10/Cold Iron or Good is like the Kyton's, and punishes an unprepared party heavily; but it reduces damage more than the Kyton's. It has a good number of hit points (66hp), and a solid armor class (AC 19), and is strait up immune to electricity and poison, and has resistance 10 to fire, cold, and acid; and sports a modest 14 spell resistance.

Offensively, it has the ability to cast darkness, dispel magic, see invisibility, and greater teleport at will. This creature makes its own tactical situations. It also possesses a +2d6 sneak attack, and a 40% chance to summon another Babau to come assist it.

The ability to cast greater teleport at will provides tactical superiority in many situations; literally removing the need to climb, jump, swim, and so forth. The ability to cast dispel magic with a CL 7 means he has good odds to disrupt party buffs - likely before the actual fighting begins (170ft range, targeted or AoE, combined with greater teleport means the Babau will strip you of your buffs if you're not careful).

It sports an ability called Protective Slime, which deals an average of 4 damage to any weapon or creature (if using a natural attack, touch spell, unarmed strike, and arguably grapples - since you deal unarmed strike damage on a successful grapple). This damage ignores hardness, so it can hurt a character's weapons pretty bad (since items often have lots of hardness but few hit points).

Finally, it has a variety of useful skills, with hide and move silently sporting no less than a +19. This puppy is a bad, bad boy. :smallamused:

--

Also compare to the Ettin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ettin.htm). The Ettin is brutish, sports a fair armor class, and is capable of swapping out equipment, potentially making it more dangerous. As listed in the SRD, he's got a lot of options (swapping hide armor for studded leather would increase its speed to 40ft without a loss of AC) beyond just what he can do. That being said, I'm going to speak just on the way it's presented in the SRD.

Firstly, it is assumed to have the ability to chuck two javalins (1d8+6) at a distance, so it has some ranged ability. Better yet, if it can close with enemies, it can easily take advantage of its natural 10ft reach. Once it has an enemy safely locked into combat, it sports no less than four attacks for 2d6+6 damage each, at an attack routine of +12/+12/+7/+7, which is pretty scary. Its grapple modifiers are pretty good too, and it should be able to make use of a variety of combat maneuvers on account of its size and strength alone (plus it sports a +7 base attack bonus).

The creature is just brutish enough to be a serious threat merely by beating opponents into the ground that it can catch.

Pro-Tip: As presented, a basic Ettin is pretty poor - though still far more dangerous than a digester - and we can make him a little more interesting. Without changing CR (we're not adding class levels, adjusting ability scores, or adding hit dice or anything - merely changing its options), one can make the encounter more exciting. Drop the Power Attack feat for EWP: Kusari-Gama, and let him dual wield two of those (changes damage from 2d6+6 to 1d8+6, increases reach to 20ft). Drop his armor entirely, or give him leather or studded leather (reduces AC by 0-3 depending on armor, increases speed by 40ft, allowing him more ability to harass people). If you really want to make it scary; swap alertness for Stand Still, so he can cut people's movement.

--

Also compare to the Megaraptor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#megaraptor). This creature is brutal. Again, sporting a whopping 79hp, and a 17 AC (high for an animal), it's pretty resilient; and has modestly decent saving throws.

The Megaraptor is a fast DPS monster who lunges in from hiding and mauls someone for a lot of damage very quickly. Sporting both a 60ft speed, and a +9 hide, +27 jump, and +12 spot/listen, and Survival; the Mega-raptor can easily stalk a party of adventurers without much fear of being seen (for every 10ft of distance between the party and it, his hide check is effectively +1 higher). When the time is right, the raptor can charge by running (60ft speed) or jumping onto his enemies.

The megaraptor sports the pounce ability, allowing it to make quite a few attacks. The creature sports an impressive +15 grapple modifier, so it can catch opponents in a grapple, to improve its chances of ripping them to shreds.

The megaraptor is more of a hit and die monster, and a dangerous one. The trick is trying to kill, disable, or run off the monster before it kills one of the party members. It doesn't have fancy resistances, but it is capable of getting a surprise round fairly easily, and potentially getting two full attacks on a party member before the fight has really begun (assuming it gets the surprise + decent 1st round initiative).

It's impressive speed also allows it to make clever use of the grapple-move options, being able to drag opponents away from the group at a speed of 30ft with a successful grapple check. This strategy doesn't work very well with a single raptor against a whole group; but the entry notes that they are pack animals and often appear it groups of 3-6 at a time. If the raptors begin grabbing multiple characters and attempting to drag them each away from each other; the party is in big trouble (though this would be more along the lines of an ECL 8-12 encounter I'd say).

--

Also compare to the Wyvern (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wyvern.htm). The wyvern is a very nasty monster. It lacks the hit points of many of the CR 6 creatures, but it sports flight, excellent spot modifiers, surprisingly decent stealth modifiers, several immunities, and a vicious set of attacks.

Wyverns can spot enemies, immediately swoop down in a charge with a talon attack which deals double damage on a dive (see here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly)) which equates to a +12 to hit and 4d6+8 damage. If the attack lands, it pops a free-action grapple with a +15 modifier; success pins the opponent and allows it to sting the opponent (+10 or +12 if charged, 1d6+4, and Poison). Once on an opponent, the wyvern has a brutal attack routine consisting of no less than 6 different attacks. It can sting, bite, attack with both wings, and get in two talon attacks; with a +8 attack bonus at the least.

Topping that off, its poison is brutal. It's a DC 17 fortitude save or suffer 2d6 initial and secondary Constitution damage. That can strait up kill someone, and if they fail the initial save, their secondary save will be even worse (since your Con went down, your fortitude save did too).

Finally, once again the Wyvern can seize the grappled foe and take to the air; moving at half speed (30ft, which is its minimum forward flying speed), and literally dragging its victims into the air with it. Once the creature flies higher, rescuing the victim becomes more problematic as falling becomes a very real threat.

These suckers are mean! :smallfrown:

--

Again, compare to a five headed Cryo or Pyro-Hydra. The creature sports both a low AC and HP for the CR (15 and 55 respectively), and it's very slow (20ft land and water speed), which makes it easy to kite. To offset this, it sports an impressive Fast Healing 15, and as well as Fire or Cold immunity as appropriate to the type of Hydra.

It sports five heads which each attack with a +6 bonus for 1d10+3 damage each, and a 10ft reach. The hydra possesses an interesting ability allowing it to attack with all its heads on attacks of opportunities, making it hellishly dangerous - especially if it starts making grapple checks (+16 bonus) with those heads when doing so.

Each head may unleash a burst of cold or fire (again, depending on cryo or pyro versions) which deals 3d6 with a DC 17 reflex save for half. That's up to 15d6 damage if it breaths with all of its heads at once, and can affect a lot of creatures at once (it's a 10x10 line up to 20ft long). It could also spread the love by firing in different directions with different heads, requiring 1d4 rounds between each burst. This is particularly brutal if it unleashes all of its breath weapons on an already pinned foe in a grapple, since the hydra is immune to its own breath weapon.

If the Hydra lurks in water until an enemy comes within the appropriate distance, it can charge into combat and immediately lock-down any opponents within its reach (through the aforementioned reach + heads + grappling). Alternatively, it can temporarily ignore its slow speed by using the Run action and rushing up to 80 feet into combat - hoping its fast healing can alleviate the AoOs it will incur.

RED HAND OF DOOM SPOILER ALERT
In the Red Hand of Doom adventure path by WotC, a Hydra lurks in water in a particular portion of the game. This hydra's body is concealed by water, removing its penalties to hide checks due to size. This is a particularly nasty way to begin such an encounter.

---

So yes, I would say the Digester is under CR'd for its level. Coming in second may actually be the Megaraptor, but it has a lot of threat potential, as well as some decent options. On an unrelated note, Digesters look stupid. :smalltongue:

What do you think?

Thurbane
2010-02-17, 08:43 PM
Changing the default feats on monsters can make a huge difference, since so many are given cr@ppy feats like Alertness, Endurance and Run.

You don't even have to give them "way out" feats to beef them up - swapping any of these for Combat Reflexes or Blind Fight can make a huge difference. Most players will assume that 99% of the time once a monster has used up it's AoO for the round, then it's safe to provoke more. Particularly effective on monsters with decent DEX and reach.

Same with Blind Fight - Displacement, Blur, Darkness and Invisibility all become significantly less effective when you get to roll the miss chance twice.

Ashiel
2010-02-17, 08:59 PM
Changing the default feats on monsters can make a huge difference, since so many are given cr@ppy feats like Alertness, Endurance and Run.

You don't even have to give them "way out" feats to beef them up - swapping any of these for Combat Reflexes or Blind Fight can make a huge difference. Most players will assume that 99% of the time once a monster has used up it's AoO for the round, then it's safe to provoke more. Particularly effective on monsters with decent DEX and reach.

Same with Blind Fight - Displacement, Blur, Darkness and Invisibility all become significantly less effective when you get to roll the miss chance twice.

Agreed. I tried to keep the adjustments to the Ettin to a minimum, since I was speaking mostly on the Ettin as presented. However, certain things were just so glaringly weakening the creature (the hide armor for example), that I couldn't help but give some advice on making him more interesting.

On a side note, adding Improved Toughness (or Pathfinder version of Toughness) to a monster can surprise a lot of players. Creature HD tend to kind of suck, and aren't worth much in the way of CR advancement. However, because of high hit dice, stuff like Improved Toughness (+1hp/level) really shines IMO. Also, tossing a level of Warblade on a monster is a quick way to pick up some cool tricks (If you have 12HD + 1 Initiator level you can pick maneuvers as a 7th level initiator).

Simpler tricks include just using some of the existing feats. Ability Focus (+2 to the DC of an ability) is ideal for lots of creatures. Quicken Spell-like Ability is incredibly good for upsetting the action economy for a creature. This greatly improves the ability for a single creature to challenge a party more (since they get more actions).

Few of these increase CR much (the warblade level does as I wouldn't begin to say it wasn't an associated class level), and are to be expected. :smallsmile:

Runestar
2010-02-17, 09:09 PM
To be fair, hide armour is the cheapest armour available, and does make sense if you consider they live in the wilderness with no access to smithies or metalwork. But I agree that from an optimisation standpoint, there is no reason to use them whatsoever.

Ashiel
2010-02-17, 09:15 PM
To be fair, hide armour is the cheapest armour available, and does make sense if you consider they live in the wilderness with no access to smithies or metalwork. But I agree that from an optimisation standpoint, there is no reason to use them whatsoever.

Agreed, which is why I actually suggested that they go naked as far as armor goes. I mean, they don't literally have to be naked, but they don't have to wear defense worthy armor either. Especially since hunting for them would probably involve running their meat down (I mean, they're big, have good constitutions, and they have a naturally high speed), then clubbing the heck out of it. Now an ettin in a band of orcs and goblins (as noted in its entry) would make plenty of sense wearing padded, leather, studded leather, or maybe even a poor quality chain shirt (fashioned out of lots of chainmail cleverly wrapped and bound with leather belts or something).

:smallsmile:

Thurbane
2010-02-17, 09:35 PM
I still remember my players cursing me about an Ettin. They'd found the lair of a cult of Mephistopheles, and the door guard was a Fiendish Ettin (with a couple of Barbarian levels). With a chain shirt, his AC and speed were better; and I swapped feats out for the Steadfast Determination/Indomitable Soul feat chain (the party had gotten used to taking out grunts with the Beguiler's arsenal of save or sucks). :smallsmile:

sonofzeal
2010-02-17, 09:49 PM
Agreed, the Digester is underwhelming for CR 6.


Hmm, for each CR...


CR 1 - Shrieker Fungus (kinda a cheap shot though, as it's technically harmless, but it still isn't even worth this CR.)

CR 2 - Giant Ant Soldier (good damage and speed, but pitiful hp and sad accuracy compared to other CR 2's; only advantage is improved grab, but +3 grapple won't get it far at all, and Int 0 means no tactical cleverness).

CR 3 - Medium Fire Elemental (poor damage, poor accuracy, poor defenses, Burn is easy enough to negate)

CR 4 - Vampire Spawn (the dominate is just about the only saving grace, the rest is pretty nerf and saddled with debilitating vampire weaknesses)

CR 5 - Gibbering Mouther (a lot of good parts, but the DCs are pathetic and a grapple mod of +3 is laughable for something that's "supposed" to be using that as a tactic)

CR 6 - Yeah, I'll go with Digester

CR 7 - ...running out of steam here. Bulette maybe? Any ideas?

Runestar
2010-02-17, 11:39 PM
I always felt the ogre mage was too fragile for its cr8. It has very little hp (37) and crap AC (18), with only flight, sr and regeneration to keep it alive. Its melee attack is a joke, and its only real purpose seems to be to swoop in, cast cone of cold, then flee (via gaseous form?). Sleep and charm person are virtually worthless by that time (unless your fighter has a will save of +0 or +4LA worth of templates).

I would probably give it more HD and revise its SLAS, maybe even give it actual wizard9 spellcasting.

Thurbane
2010-02-18, 12:31 AM
The Ogre Mage comes into it's own when you give it non-assocaited class levels, but that's due to the wonkiness of non-assocated classes and the CR system. :smallbiggrin:

The Ogre Mage suffers from being a "legacy monster". The 3.X designers gave it the same/similar powers and SLAs that it had in 1E, which interract a lot differently with the 3.X player classes than they did back then. I believe it was one of the monsters put up as an example of bad design when WotC were trying to "justify" 4E.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-18, 09:15 AM
Ogre Mage is weak. Decent alpha strike, then...nothing to back it up.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-18, 09:17 AM
Ogre Mage is weak. Decent alpha strike, then...nothing to back it up.

I'd say it is a Skirmish. It attacks, can survive the retaliation, but has to run away(fly/float) next turn.

You'd need some minions/brutes with it to be a decent fight. By itself, it sucks other than acting like Tucker's Kobolds to put fear on enemies (an invisible enemy could be attacking us any minute).

Runestar
2010-02-18, 09:35 AM
I don't see how the ogre mage works well with minions. You will be hard pressed to avoid hitting allies with its cone of cold, and none of its other abilities seem to synergize well with them.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-18, 09:36 AM
That, and adding minions increases CR for the encounter.

Since it doesn't synergize particularily well, you merely end up with the same issue for a different CR level.

Runestar
2010-02-18, 09:51 AM
I am also curious as to what classes stack well with ogre mage. Spellcasting classes don't boost its innate spellcasting, and even melee classes likely won't let it catch up quickly enough. Nor does it have sufficient racial HD to make full use of the non-associated class rule.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-18, 09:59 AM
I am also curious as to what classes stack well with ogre mage. Spellcasting classes don't boost its innate spellcasting, and even melee classes likely won't let it catch up quickly enough. Nor does it have sufficient racial HD to make full use of the non-associated class rule.

I'd say no class is associated.

You can add 5 levels before CR increase by more than 1/2 each.

Is the new Ogre Mage better?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060721a

It gains Sneak attack, Fast Heal (instead of Regen), but extra Racial HD. Swift Invisibility and lightning bolt. CR 5

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-18, 10:04 AM
Though i agree with you guys about the ogre mage... its one of my favorite monsters(used to fight alot of them back in 2nd ed... and they always seemd to be the master mind behind large plots in our planescape games)

I ususaly drop them a cr by 1 and change the "sleep" to an uncapped single target sleep.


As for non associated, I find a few classes synergise well.

Scout,rogue, paladin,hexblade,

One GM ran us against a ogremage favored soul 4... It took us 4-5 sessions to take it down..(granted we didn't know it had regeration)


Edit i wasn't a fan of the ogre mage remake.

Runestar
2010-02-18, 10:11 AM
Is the new Ogre Mage better?

Don't really think much of it, to be honest. I guess it is better-balanced, but I quite liked the feel of the original ogre mage, just that I felt it could be better built. So I would like any revision to retain this flavour.

One quick fix I thought of was to replace its SLAs with actual wiz spellcasting, and increase its HD to improve its survivability. It can then augment itself with defensive spells such as mirror image and stoneskin, but I am not sure if this may make it too hard to kill.

What do you think of the ogre mage if it had 8 giant HD and wiz9 spellcasting instead? Retains its stats, flight, sr, regen?

Alternatively, maybe the eldritch blast and invocations of a 9th lv warlock?


I ususaly drop them a cr by 1 and change the "sleep" to an uncapped single target sleep.

Sleep could be upgraded to deep slumber. Perhaps charm person could be changed to some spell which targets fort instead? This way, it can attack fort, reflex and will, giving it more versatility.

Saph
2010-02-18, 10:26 AM
Just as a point of interest, our 9th-level party fought an Ogre Mage last session. The combat went as follows:

Surprise round: Ogre Mage uses Cone of Cold and blasts entire party.
Round 1: Party wins initiative and drops Ogre Mage to negative HP.
Rounds 2-10: Party experiments on Ogre Mage with various attacks until they find something that beats its regeneration.

It didn't even live long enough to get a second action, even with surprise. Yeah, over-CRed.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-18, 10:29 AM
Don't really think much of it, to be honest. I guess it is better-balanced, but I quite liked the feel of the original ogre mage, just that I felt it could be better built. So I would like any revision to retain this flavour.

One quick fix I thought of was to replace its SLAs with actual wiz spellcasting, and increase its HD to improve its survivability. It can then augment itself with defensive spells such as mirror image and stoneskin, but I am not sure if this may make it too hard to kill.

What do you think of the ogre mage if it had 8 giant HD and wiz9 spellcasting instead? Retains its stats, flight, sr, regen?

Alternatively, maybe the eldritch blast and invocations of a 9th lv warlock?

Sleep could be upgraded to deep slumber. Perhaps charm person could be changed to some spell which targets fort instead? This way, it can attack fort, reflex and will, giving it more versatility.

I think charm person is essential but deep slumber would work.

I totaly forgot about warlocks... ooo ogre mage with warlock levels may be brutal.


edit:
Saph:
How optimised is your party... and you where an ECL over. should win that with no problem.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-18, 10:35 AM
Don't really think much of it, to be honest. I guess it is better-balanced, but I quite liked the feel of the original ogre mage, just that I felt it could be better built. So I would like any revision to retain this flavour.

One quick fix I thought of was to replace its SLAs with actual wiz spellcasting, and increase its HD to improve its survivability. It can then augment itself with defensive spells such as mirror image and stoneskin, but I am not sure if this may make it too hard to kill.

What do you think of the ogre mage if it had 8 giant HD and wiz9 spellcasting instead? Retains its stats, flight, sr, regen?

Alternatively, maybe the eldritch blast and invocations of a 9th lv warlock?



Sleep could be upgraded to deep slumber. Perhaps charm person could be changed to some spell which targets fort instead? This way, it can attack fort, reflex and will, giving it more versatility.

I like the Warlock idea, but I don't think it needs more HD.
Try this.

OGRE MAGE CR 5
Large Giant
Init +6; Senses darkvision 90 ft., low-light vision; Listen +9, Spot +9
Languages Giant, Common

AC 22, touch 11, flat-footed 20
hp 39 (6 HD); fast healing 5
Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +4

Speed 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 40 ft. (good)
Melee greatsword +9 (3d6+7/19–20); or
Ranged Eldrtich Blast +6 (3d6/x2, 60 feet)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Base Atk +4; Grp +13
Atk Options sneak attack 2d6
Warlock Spell casting (as if 6th level, DC charisma based)
3 Least: Baleful utterance, See the unseen, Summon Swarm
1 Lesser: Wall of Gloom
Spell-like abilities (caster 6):
1/day—gaseous form, swift invisibility (Spell Compendium page 125).

Abilities Str 21, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 17
SQ deceptive veil
Feats Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (greatsword)
Skills Concentration +10, Disguise +10, Intimidate +10, Listen +9, Spot +9
Possessions greatsword, +4 chain shirt

Deceptive Veil (Su): As per the spell disguise self, save that the ogre mage can appear to be up to one size smaller.
Flight (Su): An ogre mage can cease or resume flight as a free action. While using gaseous form it can fly at its normal speed and has perfect maneuverability.
Innate casting: Ogre Mage casts like a 6th level Warlock. This gives them 3 Least and 1 lesser invocation.
Eldritch Blast: Ogre Mage can shoot a a ray with a range of 30 ft that deals 3d6 damage (SR applies).

Vampire D
2010-02-18, 12:20 PM
Drows are pretty nasty, especally at lv one or in a group.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-18, 01:20 PM
Agreed, the Digester is underwhelming for CR 6.


Hmm, for each CR...


CR 1 - Shrieker Fungus (kinda a cheap shot though, as it's technically harmless, but it still isn't even worth this CR.)

CR 2 - Giant Ant Soldier (good damage and speed, but pitiful hp and sad accuracy compared to other CR 2's; only advantage is improved grab, but +3 grapple won't get it far at all, and Int 0 means no tactical cleverness).

CR 3 - Medium Fire Elemental (poor damage, poor accuracy, poor defenses, Burn is easy enough to negate)

CR 4 - Vampire Spawn (the dominate is just about the only saving grace, the rest is pretty nerf and saddled with debilitating vampire weaknesses)

CR 5 - Gibbering Mouther (a lot of good parts, but the DCs are pathetic and a grapple mod of +3 is laughable for something that's "supposed" to be using that as a tactic)

CR 6 - Yeah, I'll go with Digester

CR 7 - ...running out of steam here. Bulette maybe? Any ideas?

Ya know i was looking at fire elementals in general and there stats seems weeker...

For example cr 1's
air: Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11
earth: Str 17, Dex 8, Con 13, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11
fire: Str 10, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11
water: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11

air: +0|+6|+0|-6|+0|+0
earth:+6|-2|+2|-6|+0|+0
fire: +0|+2|+0|-6|+0|+0
water:+4|+0|+2|-6|+0|+0
all the other ones have bonus's adding up to +0 there +6 equals out to there -6 int
yet for some reason fire elementals have a -4


mabye the fix should be giving the fire elemental +2 str and +4 dex
to keep with the theme

Runestar
2010-02-18, 07:52 PM
To Starbuck_II's warlock revision...

I would probably try to squeeze in hideous blow somehow (to augment its melee attack and stay true to its visual as a hulking brute) but I like what you did to it. :smallsmile:


How optimised is your party... and you where an ECL over. should win that with no problem.

It has AC18 and only 37hp. Even a 6th lv party should have no problems dealing more than twice that when focused-firing.

sofawall
2010-02-18, 08:46 PM
To Starbuck_II's warlock revision...

I would probably try to squeeze in hideous blow somehow (to augment its melee attack and stay true to its visual as a hulking brute) but I like what you did to it. :smallsmile:



It has AC18 and only 37hp. Even a 6th lv party should have no problems dealing more than twice that when focused-firing.

Hideous Blow is, well, hideous. It provokes an AoO if you use it, and it's a standard action, so no iteratives.

Runestar
2010-02-18, 09:11 PM
Hideous Blow is, well, hideous. It provokes an AoO if you use it, and it's a standard action, so no iteratives.

The ogre mage doesn't have a high enough bab to grant iteratives anyways, plus I am relying on defensive casting to ignore AoOs. Maybe sink a feat into combat casting?

Eldritch glaive is a thought, but it requires a full-round action, and I don't want to eat into its mobility.

The eldritch blast would make up for its normally crappy ranged attack though.

sonofzeal
2010-02-18, 09:52 PM
The ogre mage doesn't have a high enough bab to grant iteratives anyways, plus I am relying on defensive casting to ignore AoOs. Maybe sink a feat into combat casting?
Errrrr... isn't that like one of the #1 most useless feats in core, made largely irrelevent by Skill Focus (itself a weak feat), which provides almost the same bonus but in a far wider number of situations.

Runestar
2010-02-18, 10:21 PM
Errrrr... isn't that like one of the #1 most useless feats in core, made largely irrelevent by Skill Focus (itself a weak feat), which provides almost the same bonus but in a far wider number of situations.

Perhaps, but I wanted to ensure the ogre mage automatically succeeds in any defensive casting attempt made, and the extra +1 granted by combat casting lets me accomplish this without even needing to roll (which is a great time-saver).

I typically combine this with skill focus on lower lv npcs. :smallsmile:

It is also quite interesting that the ability to create darkness, fly and turn invisible exist as warlock invocations. Throw in eldritch spear for better ranged capabilities and frightful blast for a bit of debuffing.

Rebuilding it as a warlock seems quite feasible indeed. :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2010-02-19, 06:47 AM
Honestly, I think SLAs in general are pretty much the biggest ****-up in 3.5 Monster-system. They don't scale ever at all, it's very hard to acquire extras, they break approximately half-a-dozen rules leading to SLA Wishes and all the associated hilarity, there's no real way to acquire them properly, etc.

Though of course, that's only a rules inconsistency and doesn't make monsters with them inherently too strong or weak, but does cause various issues particularly with scaling.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-19, 08:12 AM
Honestly, I think SLAs in general are pretty much the biggest ****-up in 3.5 Monster-system. They don't scale ever at all, it's very hard to acquire extras, they break approximately half-a-dozen rules leading to SLA Wishes and all the associated hilarity, there's no real way to acquire them properly, etc.

Though of course, that's only a rules inconsistency and doesn't make monsters with them inherently too strong or weak, but does cause various issues particularly with scaling.

I don't think they where ment to scale thats why more NPC's have them the PC races. I know there are exceptions but for the most part.

I don't think there that bad... they make life as a gm easyer.

Eldariel
2010-02-19, 08:41 AM
I don't think they where ment to scale thats why more NPC's have them the PC races. I know there are exceptions but for the most part.

I don't think there that bad... they make life as a gm easyer.

They woulda been made to scale had they intended that, of course. As such, we can safely assume that you are correct; they weren't made to scale. That presents an issue though; you have a monster. You have rules for advancing monsters, such as adding HD, templates or class levels depending on what you want.

Most things are fairly straight-forward; monster gains more HP, BAB, saves, skills, feats, etc. However, SLAs are the odd one out; their caster level never increases, advancement never grants additional uses of them, hell, even save DCs rarely increase (outside straight stat increases), the monster never gains superior SLAs of the same type, etc. They simply become obsolete when advancing the monster. Which means monsters, whose primary power lies in their SLAs, simply advance horribly poorly.

Offensive Su-abilities tend to derive save DCs off HD and have infinite uses making them advance just fine and inherent casting obviously advances by class levels, but SLAs? Do. Not. Advance. Worse yet, they don't contribute at all to advancing in classes that gain the same ability as spells. Meh; it just frustrates me how everything else in the game has clear-cut advancement methods and SLAs are sort of a relic that just never changes.


I think Ogre Mage is a model example of this issue; you'd think you could compound its abilities by giving it casting, but all that does is start you off from zero leaving its SLAs to rot.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-19, 08:54 AM
They woulda been made to scale had they intended that, of course. As such, we can safely assume that you are correct; they weren't made to scale. That presents an issue though; you have a monster. You have rules for advancing monsters, such as adding HD, templates or class levels depending on what you want.

Most things are fairly straight-forward; monster gains more HP, BAB, saves, skills, feats, etc. However, SLAs are the odd one out; their caster level never increases, advancement never grants additional uses of them, hell, even save DCs rarely increase (outside straight stat increases), the monster never gains superior SLAs of the same type, etc. They simply become obsolete when advancing the monster. Which means monsters, whose primary power lies in their SLAs, simply advance horribly poorly.

Offensive Su-abilities tend to derive save DCs off HD and have infinite uses making them advance just fine and inherent casting obviously advances by class levels, but SLAs? Do. Not. Advance. Worse yet, they don't contribute at all to advancing in classes that gain the same ability as spells. Meh; it just frustrates me how everything else in the game has clear-cut advancement methods and SLAs are sort of a relic that just never changes.


I think Ogre Mage is a model example of this issue; you'd think you could compound its abilities by giving it casting, but all that does is start you off from zero leaving its SLAs to rot.


I thought caster level for sla's where based on HD when there hd goes up the SLA's caster level goes up? I know most DC's are stat based much like casting a spell so yes agreed they don't advance well but its like getting a single spell to cast a day... it won't realy scale but you can still cast it.


I like SLA's, though advancing monsters and i agree slas get kinda wierd. Though i guess the best way to look at it is like a dip into a casting class and all you can do is cast that one spell... from an Optimisation stand point its terrible. from a gm stand point i don't think its that bad.

Runestar
2010-02-19, 09:07 AM
I thought caster level for sla's where based on HD when there hd goes up the SLA's caster level goes up?

It normally should not scale, though there have been calls to let it improve at a 1:1 rate with cr. But I think that even if you advanced a balor to 60HD, its caster lv would still stay at 20.

Scaling with HD also has problems of its own, since it improves faster than cr. For example, a 60HD balor would be cr40 but cast blasphemy at caster lv60...

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-19, 09:10 AM
It normally should not scale, though there have been calls to let it improve at a 1:1 rate with cr. But I think that even if you advanced a balor to 60HD, its caster lv would still stay at 20.

Scaling with HD also has problems of its own, since it improves faster than cr. For example, a 60HD balor would be cr40 but cast blasphemy at caster lv60...


Hmm you bring up a good point.. I guess i still don't see a problem with it not scaling. Some SLA's get usless when you advance it..Using the ogres example of sleep. (though i think thats more of a problem with Sleep) But then again it keeps minions and hirlings away.