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View Full Version : Samurai Gish Build {3.5e}



LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-16, 12:18 PM
I realize that gish builds tend to flop. However, I thought reaching an armored mage much like the Arcane Warrior from Dragon Age and others of the like. I also thought of making him an "outcast" from both breeds of elves. Here's my concept:

Name: Feldrae Barriath
Race: Deepwyrm Half-Drow Forestlord Half Elf (Literally Hlaf Forestlord Elf, Half Deepwyrm Drow :P)
Class @ 20th: Battle Sorcerer 4/Samurai 1/Abjurant Knight 5/Eldritch Knight 10
Feats @ lv8: Armored Caster, Practiced Spellcaster, Somatic Weaponry, Arcane Strike, Improved Familiar, Dragon Familiar

If y'all have any revsion ideas, please do post it. Thanks and let's roll initiative!

dobu
2010-02-16, 12:33 PM
I wouldn't use Battle Sorcerer (the loss of spells known is quite painful) and drop in 1 level of Spellsword to get the ASF reduce. This should compensate for the loss of light armor casting.
Aside from that it's a standard gish.

Oh. and I would definitely take quicken spell. Nothing better than casting and charging or fullattacking, maybe extend as well...

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-16, 12:36 PM
I wouldn't use Battle Sorcerer (the loss of spells known is quite painful) and drop in 1 level of Spellsword to get the ASF reduce. This should compensate for the loss of light armor casting.
Aside from that it's a standard gish.

Oh. and I would definitely take quicken spell. Nothing better than casting and charging or fullattacking, maybe extend as well...

But wouldn't a dip into spellsword cause a loss of CL?

and I also considered Stalwart as a choice, considering they are essentially the same thing. Plus, I like the increased HD and Martial Proficiency (I personally used it on an Elven Greatbow modeled after the Yumi).

and at next level up, I'm DEFINATELY adding a flaw and taking quicken

dobu
2010-02-16, 12:44 PM
no loss of CL, because spellsword (c. warrior) progresses spellcasting at 1,3,5 and so forth...
just take a 1 lvl dip.

samurai gets all martial weapons anyway, so why would you need it as a sorcerer?

you would lose 8 HP in those 4 sorcerer levels. I would say this isn't worth so many spells known.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-16, 12:49 PM
no loss of CL, because spellsword (c. warrior) progresses spellcasting at 1,3,5 and so forth...
just take a 1 lvl dip.

samurai gets all martial weapons anyway, so why would you need it as a sorcerer?

you would lose 8 HP in those 4 sorcerer levels. I would say this isn't worth so many spells known.

But what about the ACF of the medium samurai armor (OA)

Plus, I considered ditching Practiced Spellcaster in favor of Improved Toughness and taking (Flaw) Poor Reflexes in favor of Quicken. Good move?

nekomata2
2010-02-16, 01:02 PM
At the very least, you should trade 5 of those Eldritch Knight levels to Abjurant Champion levels, from Complete Mage. It is in every way better, but only 5 levels. If you can, I'd also recommend replacing the other 5 eldritch knight levels with Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4). It is an Eldritch Knight with class features.

Also no, 1 hp per level is not worth the loss of casters levels Practiced Spellcaster is covering.

Melamoto
2010-02-16, 01:02 PM
I don't know why on earth you would choose Samurai for your melee level. It has slightly different skills and forces you to use your first feat on a weapon proficiency. But, since it's your choice, then I would recommend you take levels in Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) instead of Eldritch Knight, and take them early. It is better in every way, and gets you the ability to cast in Light Armor. Then you can take the Battle Caster feat from Complete Arcane to allow yourself to cast in Medium Armor. Then, you can take Heavy Armor and make it mithral so that it counts as medium armor. Congratulations, you have no spell failure chance while wearing Full Plate.

Ninja'd on the Knight Phantom!

Starbuck_II
2010-02-16, 01:13 PM
I don't know why on earth you would choose Samurai for your melee level. It has slightly different skills and forces you to use your first feat on a weapon proficiency. But, since it's your choice, then I would recommend you take levels in Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) instead of Eldritch Knight, and take them early. It is better in every way, and gets you the ability to cast in Light Armor. Then you can take the Battle Caster feat from Complete Arcane to allow yourself to cast in Medium Armor. Then, you can take Heavy Armor and make it mithral so that it counts as medium armor. Congratulations, you have no spell failure chance while wearing Full Plate.

Ninja'd on the Knight Phantom!

He could take 2 level of Pally instead of Samurai then take substitution when he gives up a 2nd level spell slot for -20 ASF. Then you don't need mithral.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a

Yes, the text says Wizard not Sorceror, but I'm sure a DM wouldn't mind if you ask.

Human Paragon 3
2010-02-16, 01:57 PM
Kind of a bizarre suggestion, but here it goes.

Start with Bard. Take the Lore Song alternate class feature from Dungeonscape to boost your attack power a little bit at expense of bardic knowledge. Bardic Music will also boost your offense (and you're group's offense) but switching over to Dragonfire Inspiration would be a bit more potent. Not strictly necessary, though.

Take a level of Marshal to meet the ride and martial weapon requirements of Knight Phantom (linked above), plus cha to damage on a charge, then get into the class as Marshal 1/Bard 7.

As soon as you qualify (level 11), take a level of Sublime Chord for increased spellcasting power, then continue with Knight Phantom, advancing Sublime Chord casting for the rest of the way, getting a good BAB and up to 9th level spells. This way you won't need to take wizard levels and you're BAB stays pretty good for the whole way, finishing at +16 without the need for battle sorcerer levels.

Finish out the build with Abjurant Champion levels, again advancing sublime chord.

If you are married to samurai you can swap out the marshal level for a samurai level, but I'd just refluff the marshal to an inspiring samurai leader. You get all marshal weapons, all armor, cha-based abilities and a samurai-like skill set from it.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-16, 02:31 PM
I chose samurai for 2 free masterwork weapons. No big secret there. Plus here, Stalwart Sorcerer kicks butt.

Plus, it has Ride, so I can hypothetically reach Knight Phantom. Full casting and a nearly full BAB.

And Improved Toughness is +2/lv. If anything, I'll live without a dragon familiar :'( or better, screw Arcane Strike for now.

And plus, and I'm going to be gentle: I HATE PALADIN!!!

Starbuck_II
2010-02-16, 02:40 PM
Too many "!!!"'s it meases with page length could you edit to a few less.
Sheesh, if hate Pally shoulde have mention that in 1st post. :smallbiggrin:

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-16, 02:50 PM
Sorry folks! I just hate just how restricted a paladin must be.

Pechvarry
2010-02-16, 03:25 PM
Which is funny, since that's mostly a DM/player limitation. The closer you adhere to actual samurai code, the worse it gets. And it gets much worse than refusing to lie.

Pechvarry
2010-02-16, 03:30 PM
Also: Aiming to wear armor while casting and then going Abjurant Champion seems like a waste.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-16, 03:55 PM
Sorry folks! I just hate just how restricted a paladin must be.

Never played a Paladin of Freedom before?

nekomata2
2010-02-16, 04:09 PM
Also: Aiming to wear armor while casting and then going Abjurant Champion seems like a waste.

Why? It doesn't work with mage armor anyway, he can't get (greater) luminous armor, but he still gets all the benefits of shield. He should be two-handing his katana anyway, not dual-wielding. Besides, its a better Gish class than either knight phantom or eldritch knight, so unless he wants the high level KP stuff, he isn't losing anything by taking it, and gets d10 HD at least.

Person_Man
2010-02-16, 04:42 PM
What levels will you realistically be playing at? Are you starting at level 8 and actually going to level 20, or are you starting at level 8 and the game will probably end at level X, but it's nice to know what will happen at level 20. The reason I ask is that there are many "half caster" PrC which are respectable at ECL 5-15, but suck at level 16+. Chameleon, Runescarred Berserker, and Knight of the Weave come to mind.


Your feat choices are pretty weak:

Armored Caster: A waste. You can wear medium armor with 0% spell failure if it's made of the correct materials and/or enhancements. I'd also say that it's pretty easy to get high AC and a miss chance just by using spells. Armor is only more efficient at low levels.

Practiced Spellcaster: Pick out your spells before deciding whether or not to take this feat. Because it may be a waste. Why? Well, in general a Gish should only be casting buff and utility spells, because they are MAD, and Feat hungry, and casting lower level spells compared to full casters of the same ECL, and thus have a hard time getting a high Save DC for their spells. Thus improving your caster level basically just increases the duration of your spells. As long as your caster level is in the 8+ range, then the duration of your spells is usually long enough to suit all of your buffing needs.

Somatic Weaponry: Another waste. You only need one free hand to cast a spell. Even if you're using a two handed weapon, you can switch to holding it in one hand as a free action, even if you attack with it using two hands as part of an attack of opportunity that round. This is explicitly discussed in the FAQ. Theoretically it's useful if you want to use a shield and a weapon, but in that case you should be using an Animated Shield.

Arcane Strike: Excellent feat choice.

Improved Familiar/Dragon Familiar: Duplicative. Neither of these gives you a new familiar. They replace your old familiar with a better familiar. Pick one or the other (and even then it's only a good idea if you know how to use Share Spells intelligently).

I would also say that there is no reason to bother with trying to get full-ish BAB build unless you want to use Power Attack feats (Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Knockback, Resounding Blow, Brutal Strike, etc). A plain Bard gets 3/4 BAB, armor, Skills, awesome music abilities (with the right feats/items), an excellent selection of mid level spells, and a much higher To-Hit then a full BAB class thanks to various buffs, and he does so without shenanigans.

dobu
2010-02-16, 06:28 PM
hm. just a quick idea: why not go duskblade, pick your exotic weapon proficiencies, take an oath and pretend to be a samurai? Duskblade is one of the more balanced classes out there...

Thurbane
2010-02-16, 09:14 PM
If you like Battle Sorc (which IMHO isn't half as bad as people tend to say it is, especially in a gish build), then BS 7/Abj Champion 5/Dragon Slayer 1/BS7 isn't half bad. CL 20, BAB +15, proficient with all martial weapons, all armor & shields...alternatively, BS 7/AC 5/DS 1/EK 7 is CL 19, BAB +18.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-17, 12:22 PM
DM threw a fit when I presented a prototype of this build, banning the concept in its tracks (He belives gishes don't exist, and yet he allows Bard, Duskblade, ect.)

So, in leu of his irksome ban-hammer waving, threatening to ban me from the campaign/kill my character on sight, I went with a Human Beguiler/Mindbender build. Take that, DM!