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Asbestos
2010-02-17, 07:18 PM
Still reading it, but I just got to the Hunter Fighting Style for Ranger. OMG, why even ever be a PHB 1 Ranged Ranger ever again? They should just scrap that build and pretend it never happened. Quickdraw+Free Action Weapon Sheathe+4AC against OAs provoked by Ranged Attacks. Marauder Ranger is also pretty neat, auto-TWD and a +1 Bonus to speed when using two weapons BUT... none of that free Toughness or using non-off hand weapons as off-hand weapons. Marauder Style is also very charge happy too...


Btw, for those that have the book. Say that I am a Marauding Ranger and I use the Throw and Stab at-will... can I use the Marauder's Rush at-will at the end of my granted charge? Is this awesome or is this still inferior to proper TWF? The same goes for the level 1 encounter power Hurling Charge and the charge it grants.

Is Lethal Hammer training just a straight up superior version of Tunnel Stalker?

Colmarr
2010-02-17, 10:02 PM
OMG, why even ever be a PHB 1 Ranged Ranger ever again? They should just scrap that build and pretend it never happened. Quickdraw+Free Action Weapon Sheathe, +4AC against OAs provoked by Ranged Attacks.

Do they get Prime Shot?

As for the quick draw and quick sheathe, that's mostly irrelevant to an archer ranger who just uses their bow over and over and over again. The Hunter is meant to be the half-and-half build, right?

Sir Homeslice
2010-02-17, 10:20 PM
Snarling Wolf Stance.

Asbestos
2010-02-17, 10:34 PM
Do they get Prime Shot?

As for the quick draw and quick sheathe, that's mostly irrelevant to an archer ranger who just uses their bow over and over and over again. The Hunter is meant to be the half-and-half build, right?

It is meant to be half/half, yes.

Prime Shot: You can now choose to have this or not as a Ranger. The not option basically gives you Skirmish. Move a couple of squares before you attack and you get a bonus to damage.

Asbestos
2010-02-17, 10:38 PM
Snarling Wolf Stance.

That is intense for a level 5 Daily... I guess the trade off is that the free attacks (provoked by anyone that attacks you with a melee/close attack) cost you your opportunity action and that you have to shift away from everyone?

Goes very well with the Hunter Ranger making the Ranged Ranger obsolete. With the ability to change out weapons for free, if anyone does get into your face you can cut them, back away, and then (likely) shoot them in the face next turn.

I think Bloody Throw is just a more Badass Level 5 daily though. You stab a dude with primary and off-hand weapons (one of the two of which is a thrown weapon) and then you throw a weapon (one of the ones you used to stab dude #1) at another dude. If you miss with the throw the power isn't expended.

I need to figure out a good Melee Weapon + Thrown Weapon (one of which must be off-hand) build. Hmm... nets are off-hand and thrown...

Break
2010-02-17, 10:41 PM
That is intense for a level 5 Daily... I guess the trade off is that the free attacks (provoked by anyone that attacks you with a melee/close attack) cost you your opportunity action and that you have to shift away from everyone?

Goes very well with the Hunter Ranger making the Ranged Ranger obsolete. With the ability to change out weapons for free, if anyone does get into your face you can cut them, back away, and then (likely) shoot them in the face next turn.

You don't have to shift away - the power says that you can shift (as a separate clause from the OA), not must.

Ranged ranger isn't quite obsolete, either - if I recall correctly, you still need it for Battlefield Archer.

Asbestos
2010-02-17, 10:52 PM
You don't have to shift away - the power says that you can shift (as a separate clause from the OA), not must.

Ranged ranger isn't quite obsolete, either - if I recall correctly, you still need it for Battlefield Archer.

Ah, it does say 'can'. The Battlefield Archer PP is really the only thing the Ranged Ranger has going for it. I haven't really looked over the new Ranger PPs yet. But, the Battlefield Archer is not the only Ranged PP option for a Ranger and hasn't been for a while now.

Break
2010-02-17, 10:56 PM
The Battlefield Archer PP is really the only thing the Ranged Ranger has going for it. I haven't really looked over the new Ranger PPs yet. But, the Battlefield Archer is not the only Ranged PP option for a Ranger and hasn't been for a while now.

Oh, I know. It's still a good reason, though. :smallsmile:

In other news, I'm just going to avoid Kiss of Death until it's errata'd.

Faleldir
2010-02-17, 11:03 PM
I'm more excited about Invigorating Stride than any attack powers. Now the only excuse for forgetting your SW is if you're surrounded.

Pramxnim
2010-02-17, 11:34 PM
I can see some fun stuff with Throw and Stab + Marauder's Rush + Manticore's Fury (Feat). That bonus damage will make up for the fact that you'll be using weapons with a lower [W] value due to not having Two-Blade Warrior (this is assuming you're a Hunter Ranger).

Of course, it then becomes ridiculous if someone interpreted Throw and Stab as usable with a Farbond Fullblade. How does d12+Enhancement, then d12+Str+Enh+2/4/6, then add that 2/4/6 on the next round assuming you hit sound?

Asbestos
2010-02-18, 01:33 AM
I can see some fun stuff with Throw and Stab + Marauder's Rush + Manticore's Fury (Feat). That bonus damage will make up for the fact that you'll be using weapons with a lower [W] value due to not having Two-Blade Warrior (this is assuming you're a Hunter Ranger).

Of course, it then becomes ridiculous if someone interpreted Throw and Stab as usable with a Farbond Fullblade. How does d12+Enhancement, then d12+Str+Enh+2/4/6, then add that 2/4/6 on the next round assuming you hit sound?

A problem with this is that, as a DM, I'd interpret this:
Requirement: You must be wielding both a thrown weapon
and a melee weapon.
To mean that you must be wielding two weapons.

Sir Homeslice
2010-02-18, 07:51 AM
A problem with this is that, as a DM, I'd interpret this:
Requirement: You must be wielding both a thrown weapon
and a melee weapon.
To mean that you must be wielding two weapons.

Well, a Farbond Spellblade Fullblade (damn you, naming conventions!) counts as a melee weapon and due to the Farbond enchantment, it also operates as a heavy thrown weapon, thus fulfilling both requirements as one weapon.

Asbestos
2010-02-18, 01:03 PM
Well, a Farbond Spellblade Fullblade (damn you, naming conventions!) counts as a melee weapon and due to the Farbond enchantment, it also operates as a heavy thrown weapon, thus fulfilling both requirements as one weapon.

I knew someone was going to say this but the problem is that ANY thrown weapon is also a melee weapon which would mean the wording "you must be wielding both a thrown and melee weapon" means the exact same thing as "you must be wielding a thrown weapon". I think the key term is 'both'. I can see it being reworded as "you must be wielding two melee weapons, at least one must be a thrown weapon".

Sir Homeslice
2010-02-18, 02:11 PM
I knew someone was going to say this but the problem is that ANY thrown weapon is also a melee weapon

Shuriken. Additionally, "both" in this context doesn't necessarily imply that you must wield two, only that you wield enough weapons to fulfill the requirements of having a thrown and a melee weapon.

Faleldir
2010-02-18, 02:18 PM
The word "wield" is another problem. Can you use Throw & Stab to Quick Draw a handaxe, then use Howling Strike with a greataxe?

valadil
2010-02-18, 02:29 PM
Bat Aside (rogue daily 5) is immense.

Sir Homeslice
2010-02-18, 02:40 PM
The word "wield" is another problem. Can you use Throw & Stab to Quick Draw a handaxe, then use Howling Strike with a greataxe?

Assuming your Ranger is a Hunter...

Free Action: Take hand off of Greataxe. Holding it in one hand, not considered wielding.
Free Action: Hunter Quick Draw Hand Axe. Considered wielding Hand Axe, holding Greataxe.
Standard Action: Throw & Stab. Throw Hand Axe at target. Greataxe in one hand, held.
Free Action: Put hand back on Greataxe. Now wielding.
Throw & Stab effect: Charge an enemy.
Howling Strike: Can be used on a charge in place of an MBA.

So yes, you can.

Yakk
2010-02-18, 02:43 PM
Assuming your Ranger is a Hunter...

Free Action: Take hand off of Greataxe. Holding it in one hand, not considered wielding.
Free Action: Hunter Quick Draw Hand Axe. Considered wielding Hand Axe, holding Greataxe.
Standard Action: Throw & Stab. Throw Hand Axe at target. Greataxe in one hand, held.
Free Action: Put hand back on Greataxe. Now wielding.
Throw & Stab effect: Charge an enemy.
Howling Strike: Can be used on a charge in place of an MBA.

So yes, you can.

Except on this step:

Free Action: Hunter Quick Draw Hand Axe. Considered wielding Hand Axe, holding Greataxe.
Standard Action: Throw & Stab. Throw Hand Axe at target. Greataxe in one hand, held.
Throw and Stab requires you to be wielding both. You are holding the greataxe, and wielding the hand axe -- you aren't wielding the greataxe.

Mando Knight
2010-02-18, 04:26 PM
Use a good ol' Versatile weapon, then.

Sir Homeslice
2010-02-18, 05:50 PM
Throw and Stab requires you to be wielding both. You are holding the greataxe, and wielding the hand axe -- you aren't wielding the greataxe.

Fine, just wield the handaxe. You can use that in melee anyways.

Artanis
2010-02-18, 07:01 PM
Thanks to Called Shot, getting Prime Shot is at least worth mentioning as an advantage for an Archery Ranger.

I still wish there was some more Archery-only stuff though. The best archer should be the frigging ARCHER :smallfrown:

Gralamin
2010-02-18, 07:47 PM
Most of the book was pretty 'meh' to me. However...
Martial Ploy + Warlord's Formation = Standard action to make two allies Avenger-Roll. Am I reading that right?

Asbestos
2010-02-19, 12:52 AM
Shuriken. Additionally, "both" in this context doesn't necessarily imply that you must wield two, only that you wield enough weapons to fulfill the requirements of having a thrown and a melee weapon.

Damn Shurikens... anyway, its shaky rules lawyery ground and if only possibly against RAW (depending on what 'both' means) it seems pretty clearly against RAI. I suspect we might see an errata on this to clear it up.

Pramxnim
2010-02-19, 05:36 AM
Let's go away from the rules-lawyering and focus on fun feats and powers.

I like the combo of Gloaming Cut (Rogue At-Will) + Silent Shot Student (Style Feat). Allows you to get reliable damage in a 1[W]+Int attack and a chance to remain hidden

Brutal Trick (Rogue ENC 3) is brutal (pun intended) in the hands of, ironically, an Artful Dodger. A rare 3[W] power that is also Rattling, Ruthless Ruffians unfortunately do not benefit much aside from the keyword, as their bonus rider effect sucks. If you're an AD, the OA is likely to miss (moreso if you are a Halfling)

Fleeting Spirit Strike is also quite nice, as it allows you to shift in, strike, then shift away and hide in the shadows. Exactly how I think Rogues should be. People may deride the Cunning Sneak feature by saying it makes the Rogue's defenses weaker, but who the constant concealment makes up for it.

I also like the new Brawler Style for the Fighter. Inescapable Hold + Great Fortitude/Epic Fortitude means your grabs will be extremely difficult to break.

An athletics check from a monster is 1/2 Level + 5 + Str.
A Brawler's Fortitude is 1/2 Level + Str + 2 (Fighter) + 2 (Brawler) + Enhancement bonus + Great Fort/Epic Fort.
As you can see, the discrepancy between a Brawler's Fortitude defense and a monster's check only gets larger as the levels pile up.

The Brawler also gets a ridiculously accurate Grab attack if he just invests in Improved Grab. That feat and the feature combines to give +6/+10/+14 to Grab attacks at each tier, which is equivalent to using a +3 Prof Weapon, +2 Enh and +1 Expertise at Heroic, and is 1 higher in Paragon, and 2 higher in Epic. Who can say Grabs are inaccurate now?

incubus5075
2010-02-19, 03:16 PM
An athletics check from a monster is 1/2 Level + 5 + Str.
^
Were did you find this? I'm always looking for monster's skills that aren't listed in the stat block!

BlckDv
2010-02-19, 03:22 PM
Cloaked Sniper build makes Thog sad. I was excited about a ranged option, having a Half-Orc Brutal Scoundrel Crossbow rogue.... but sadly Int was my dump stat, so no re-build for me. I do like the tasty ranged weapon talent, though.

The Skirmishing Warlord looks like a potential two-feat multiclass dip for a lot of builds; picking up an Encounter Str based ranged attack could help round out many builds' versatility. Also an attractive choice for Half-Elves Dilettante.

Asbestos
2010-02-19, 03:23 PM
There are enough Cunning Sneak powers that don't key off INT that you can very easily be a DEX only rogue and use whatever you want for your secondary stat. Might make MCing easier?

BlckDv
2010-02-19, 03:32 PM
There are enough Cunning Sneak powers that don't key off INT that you can very easily be a DEX only rogue and use whatever you want for your secondary stat. Might make MCing easier?

I'll look into it. I just took the Cloaked Sniper PP and so was excited to re-build for Cunning Sneak to be a better shot... but then read the mechanics side and was sad. I'll go back and look at the higher level powers, may still be worth it.

Pramxnim
2010-02-19, 04:28 PM
An athletics check from a monster is 1/2 Level + 5 + Str.
^
Were did you find this? I'm always looking for monster's skills that aren't listed in the stat block!

If a skill is not listed, the enemy is untrained, and thus the check is 1/2 level + relevant stat. I only listed the modifier for enemies who are trained in Athletics and thus more likely to break out of your grab.

Faleldir
2010-02-20, 05:34 PM
Does anyone else think Warforged Superiority is too good for a Heroic feat?

Pramxnim
2010-02-20, 05:43 PM
If it's a prone on an OA, then it's like Combat Agility, but with a +Wis to hit and no shifting. A Warforged has no inherent bonus to Wisdom, so I think it's really good but not overpowered.

I just noticed that the Brawler class feature gives you a +2/+4/+6 proficiency bonus with Unarmed Attacks... This should be their attempt at making the Unarmed Attack more palatable since it cannot be enchanted. But imagine a Fighter MC'd into Assassin to pick up a Ki Focus... by Epic he'll have a +6 Proficiency weapon with a +6 Enhancement bonus! Granted, he only deals 1d6 per [W] (with Brutal Brawler), but that's better accuracy than any other Fighters out there! Just stack up on the static modifiers and you can still deal respectable damage while having a kickass Defender/Controller!

Mando Knight
2010-02-20, 09:49 PM
I just noticed that the Brawler class feature gives you a +2/+4/+6 proficiency bonus with Unarmed Attacks... This should be their attempt at making the Unarmed Attack more palatable since it cannot be enchanted. But imagine a Fighter MC'd into Assassin to pick up a Ki Focus... by Epic he'll have a +6 Proficiency weapon with a +6 Enhancement bonus! Granted, he only deals 1d6 per [W] (with Brutal Brawler), but that's better accuracy than any other Fighters out there! Just stack up on the static modifiers and you can still deal respectable damage while having a kickass Defender/Controller!

I'd think a Brawler Fighter would be more likely to MC into Monk (at least after PHB3 comes out)...